Third Space Podcast

Today, I wanted to share a conversation I had a few weeks ago with Sean Mitchell over on his Youtube channel, Apostolate of the Ear. Sean reached out to me a few months ago to see if I’d be interested in discussing Christian Universalism and explore my belief that a person can be within the bounds of Catholic orthodoxy and have a sure and certain hope that God will save everyone. And I was very happy to agree. Sean was a gracious interviewer and I had a great time talking with him.

LINKS

Apostolate of the Earhttps://www.youtube.com/@apostolateoftheear3719

Details for my Spring 2025 spiritual abuse workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-627

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

This is Part Two of a two-part conversation with Dr. Marcus Mescher. In the first part of the conversation we discussed Liberation Theology, its origins, development, and relationship with the universal Church. We also spent time reflecting on the life and work of the Dominican theologian, Gustavo Gutiérrez. In Part-Two, we dive into the Church’s teaching on the preferential options for the poor, exploring its roots in Scripture as well as its relationship to the Ordo Amoris. From there we discuss the importance of the Church having a “preferential options for survivors” and what living that out could look like on an institutional and personal level. I really loved this conversation and I hope you enjoy it as well.

If you haven’t listened to Part One, I would encourage you to start with that episode.

LINKS:

Measuring & Exploring Moral Injury Caused by Clergy Sexual Abusehttps://www.xavier.edu/moral-injury-report/

“Moral Injury and Clerical Sexual Abuse” PFG podcast with Marcus Mescherhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/marcus-mescher-moral-injury-and-clerical

The Liberation Theology PodcastEp. 5: Catholic Social Teaching and Liberation Theology with Marcus Mescher, Pt. 1https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-5-catholic-social-teaching-and-liberation-theology/id1551431636?i=1000511104797

Accountability, Healing, and Trust: Interdisciplinary Reflections for Ministry in the Midst of the Catholic Sex Abuse Crisishttps://litpress.org/Products/8897/Accountability-Healing-and-Trust

Awake Bloghttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blog

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

This is Part One of a two-part conversation with Dr. Marcus Mescher. In the first part of the conversation we discuss Liberation Theology, its origins, development, and relationship with the universal Church. We also spend time reflecting on the life and work of the Dominican theologian, Gustavo Gutiérrez. In Part-Two, we will dove into the Church’s teaching on the preferential options for the poor, exploring its roots in Scripture as well as its relationship to the Ordo Amoris. From there we discussed the importance of the Church having a “preferential options for survivors” and what living that out could look like on an institutional and personal level. I really loved this conversation and I hope you enjoy it as well.

Dr. Marcus Mescher is associate professor of Christian ethics. He holds a Ph.D. from Boston College and specializes in Catholic social teaching and moral formation. His research and writing concentrate in the following areas: human dignity and rights; social/environmental justice for the global common good; how moral agency is impacted by cultural context and digital technology; the moral dimensions of friendship; sexual justice and the ethics of marriage and family life; liberation theology and inclusive solidarity; healing the psychological, spiritual, social, and moral harm caused by clergy abuse. Dr. Mescher has written dozens of popular and academic articles. His current research and writing focus on mental health and moral injury.

LINKS:

Measuring & Exploring Moral Injury Caused by Clergy Sexual Abusehttps://www.xavier.edu/moral-injury-report/

“Moral Injury and Clerical Sexual Abuse” PFG podcast with Marcus Mescherhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/marcus-mescher-moral-injury-and-clerical

The Liberation Theology PodcastEp. 5: Catholic Social Teaching and Liberation Theology with Marcus Mescher, Pt. 1https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-5-catholic-social-teaching-and-liberation-theology/id1551431636?i=1000511104797

Accountability, Healing, and Trust: Interdisciplinary Reflections for Ministry in the Midst of the Catholic Sex Abuse Crisishttps://litpress.org/Products/8897/Accountability-Healing-and-Trust

Awake Bloghttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blog

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

This week I spoke with Esther Harber. Esther is the Survivor Care Coordinator for Awake and a survivors of sexual assault by a Catholic priest. In this discussion she shares her own story and how her experiences of harm have impacted her faith. Esther has maybe the biggest heart of anyone I’ve ever met. And her capacity to be present with others and hold their stories is profound. I’m so grateful to share our conversation.

*A trigger warning that this episode inclues conversation about sexual assault

Esther Harber is a devoted Catholic living with her husband and daughters in Ohio. She is a convert from a fundamentalist Protestant denomination, and was blessed to enter the Catholic Church in 2006. The Lord placed a passion in her heart for sharing the faith, and she spent the better part of her twenties as a lay missionary in New York City. She was also in religious life for a year. During her time as a missionary she experienced spiritual abuse, grooming, and sexual assault by a Catholic priest. After a long period of healing, she felt the Lord calling her to walk with other victim-survivors and to bring light to this crisis in the Church. Esther is the Survivor Care Coordinator for Awake.

LINKS:

Esther’s Survivor Story:https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/esther-harber/

Contact Esther or Awake:https://www.awakecommunity.org/contact

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

This week I had a wonderful conversation with Sr. Carino Hodder from the The Dominican Sisters of St. Joseph. I first met Sr. Carino when she participated in one of my online workshops about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church. Since then we’ve had several conversations about safeguarding, abuse of conscience, and the role of the catechist. I’ve really valued her perspective and insights. She has recently written a couple of articles on those topics, which seemed like a great excuse to have her on the podcast to talk about vulnerability, conscience, and the role of the catechist.

Sr. Carino Hodder is a Dominican Sister of Saint Joseph based in the New Forest in England. She assists her community with their apostolate of training catechists, primarily as a tutor on their Certificate in Catechesis. Since becoming a sister, she has worked as a First Holy Communion catechist, a Confirmation catechist, and a parish sister in a parish in London, as well as being involved in ongoing formation for all age groups. She also writes regularly for The Lamp magazine and has contributed to other publications including Where Peter Is, The Pillar, and Plough.

LINKS:

The Dominican Sisters of St. Josephhttps://www.dominicansisters.net/

Light of Truth: Live Catholic Formation for Everyonehttps://www.lightoftruth.uk/

Freedom, Safety and Vulnerabilityhttps://wherepeteris.com/freedom-safety-and-vulnerability/

Vulnerability and the Conscience in Catechesishttps://wherepeteris.com/vulnerability-and-the-conscience-in-catechesis/

Substitute for Virtue: On the exercise of charisms without gracehttps://thelampmagazine.com/blog/substitute-virtue

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

In this first episode of 2025, I talked with my good friend and mentor, Monica Pope, about hope. We began by talking about the role of the catechist before launching into a catechesis about hope in light of the theme of the 2025 Jubilee Year, “Pilgrims of Hope.” All of that set up a more personal discussion about what hope actually looks like in our concrete lives. We proposed that hope is really only born out of a “third space” where the reality of all the bad is accepted—not bypassed—while holding onto the belief that God is good. Talking with Monica is always a consolation for me, I hope that’s your experience as well.

Monica Pope has been doing evangelizing catechesis for 30 years in the Catholic Church. She has worked in Michigan parishes as Director of Catechesis, RCIA leader, and Director of Discipleship Ministries. Monica has created family catechesis programs in several parishes; she’s formed many dedicated and gifted Catholic disciples to be effective catechists. She’s written and led hundreds of retreats, presented for thousands of people, ranging from First Communicants and their parents, to senior residents at assisted living facilities, to employees of diocesan chancelleries. These days she’s a master catechist for a catholic media company. And cofounder of Practical Kerygma.

LINKS:

Practical Kerygma:https://www.practicalkerygma.com/

Spes Non Confundit - Bull of Indiction of the Ordinary Jubilee of the Year 2025:https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/bulls/documents/20240509_spes-non-confundit_bolla-giubileo2025.html

Details for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here:https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

Details for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here:

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

In this episode, I spoke with Natalie Pucillo. She recently wrote a couple of articles about her visit to Rome during the final meeting of the Synod on Synodality. Her reflections were so good, capturing both the harm and the hope she experienced. So asked if she would be on the podcast to talk about those articles. Specifically, I wanted to know her perspective on the synod and reform in the Church. And I wanted to hear about her experiences of hope. It was a wonderful conversation.

Natalie Pucillo is currently a Master of Divinity student at Loyola University Chicago’s Institute of Pastoral Studies, where she integrates her interests in Catholic liturgy and sacramental theology, ecclesiology, and trauma-informed pastoral practices. She was a cradle Catholic and served for over 10 years as a professional church musician in various Washington, DC-area churches. She now works in higher education student support, and currently serves on the Leadership and Prayer teams for Awake. As a survivor of abuse by a lay minister in the Catholic Church, Natalie is passionate about spreading awareness about the spiritual effects of abuse by lay leaders, and working for accountability and transformation in our Church.

LINKS

Word Made Flesh: Reflections on the Synod on Synodality

https://allthatishidden.substack.com/p/word-made-flesh

A Survivor Visits Rome

https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/a-survivor-visits-rome

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

Details for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here:

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

This week I had a wonderful conversation with Colleen Dulle, co-host of the Inside the Vatican podcast, about the Synod on Synodality. I was pretty disappointed when the synod finished and felt like, instead of real change, we just got vibes. Colleen felt differently. So I wanted to ask her about her time in Rome during the final synod meeting, and the final synod document, and where she sees signs of real reform. As always, it was great talking with her.

Colleen Dulle is an associate editor at America Media, where she co-hosts the weekly news podcast Inside the Vatican. She writes and edits Vatican news and analysis articles for America Magazine and contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Her forthcoming book, Struck Down, Not Destroyed, on the spiritual crises that result from reporting on the endemic problems of the Catholic Church, will be published by Penguin Random House in Summer 2025.

LINKS

Colleen’s Website

https://www.colleendulle.com

Colleen’s Linktree

https://linktr.ee/colleendulle

Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog

https://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_house

Colleen Dulle - Fr. Rupnik and Trusting the Pope

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-fr-rupnik-and-trusting

Colleen Dulle - Synodality and Spiritual Crises

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-synodality-and-spiritual

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

A few weeks ago I was invited to be a speaker for a Courageous Conversation event hosted by Awake, A Catholic non-profit whose mission "is to awaken our community to the full reality of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, work for transformation, and foster healing for all who have been wounded."

Courageous Conversations is an online speaker series designed to “build community, deepen understanding, encourage conversation, and inspire personal action in response to the complex issue of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church.”

Last month’s topic was titled "Cultivating a Gospel Response to Trauma" nd was about how to foster trauma-informed church communities and spaces "that are sensitive to the needs of survivors of sexual abuse by Catholic leaders.”I was humbled and honored to be asked to participate in this event. Especially alongside Pete Singer, from the organization GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment), and the author of the excellent article: Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abuse.Making the Church more trauma-informed is not only important in our pastoral care and evangelization efforts, but I believe having a preferential option for survivors of trauma is an essential aspect of our identity as Christians.

I received permission to share the audio recording of this event as a bonus podcast episode.

LINKS

Give to Awake

https://www.awakecommunity.org/donate

Courageous Conversations Video

https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/courageous-conversation-makes-the-case-for-working-toward-a-trauma-sensitive-church

Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abuse

https://currentsjournal.org/index.php/currents/article/view/444

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

This week I talked with Fr. Chris Kellerman SJ about his excellent and challenging book, “All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.” In our conversation he presents a brief history of the Church’s involvement with, and teachings about, slavery. Fr. Chris also responds to still repeated misconceptions and revisionist histories about the Church’s participation in the slave trade. Finally, we talk about how this relates to the priest abuse crisis and how confronting the evils in the Church impacts our own faith. 

Also, I apologize for the audio quality of this episode, I didn’t realize I was using the wrong microphone until after the recording was over. 

Fr. Chris Kellerman, SJ, is Secretary of Justice and Ecology for the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States in Washington, D.C, where he oversees the U.S. government relations and legislative advocacy operations of the Jesuits. Originally from Arlington, TX, he studied at Texas Tech University, the University of Dallas, and Regis College at the University of Toronto. He is the author of All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.

LINKS:

All Oppression Shall Cease : A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church

https://orbisbooks.com/products/all-opression-shall-cease-a-history-of-slavery-abolitionism-and-the-catholic-church

Alessandra Harris - The Truth about the Catholic Church & Slavery with Chris Kellerman, SJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2yRqU-B1oY

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. 

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.