Chavie and Tonia connect over their shared upbringing as daughters of Chabad emissaries in Texas, reflecting on how empowering it was to carry so much responsibility from a young age. Chavie asks how Tonia maintained her creative spirit as a teenager, within a system that often values conformity, and Tonia shares how her strong intuition drew towards the deeper, mystical teachings of Chassidus, which harmonized naturally with artistic outlets like spoken word poetry. Chavie and Tonia explore how concepts like bittul (self-nullification) and modesty can sometimes be misdirected to disempower women, which misrepresents the Torah’s intent. Instead, they agree that these values belong within the broader framework of one’s service of Hashem and should never be weaponized as measures of their connection to G-d.

Tonia Chazanow is a writer, artist and spoken word poet. She hosts the Human & Holy podcast and teaches weekly Tanya classes. She is passionate about Torah study, gathering Jewish women, and the power of the arts to better understand ourselves and G-d.