In this episode, former Mormon apologist Michael Flournoy shares how debating Christians and studying Scripture to defend Mormonism unexpectedly led him to the doctrine of grace—until he realized Jesus’ righteousness is a gift, not something you earn. His journey exposes the “impossible gospel” of performance and points to the sufficiency of Christ alone.

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The Unveiling Mormonism podcast pulls back the curtain on Mormon history, culture and doctrine. Join us for new episodes every Monday.

Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org/mormonism.

Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.

Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.

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Link to "From Mormon Apologist to Christian: The Story of Michael Flournoy" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi5XP1Qh6Os

What does it mean to be a “Mormon apologist”? Michael Flournoy explains it with a smile: it’s not someone who’s good at apologizing. It comes from the Greek word apologia—a defense. In other words, an apologist is someone who argues their case and tries to prove they’re right.

And for years, that was Michael.

He wasn’t employed by the LDS Church, but he took the job personally. As a Mormon missionary, Michael ran into evangelical Christians who used the Bible to challenge Mormon beliefs. Instead of backing down, he doubled down. He became a student of Scripture—not to surrender to it, but to “undermine” Christian arguments. He debated Christians online and in person, wrote a book titled A Biblical Defense of Mormonism, and tried to persuade Christians that Mormons were truly Christians… just with “more truth.”

But the story doesn’t stay there.

Michael describes an early turning point on his mission. A Christian man confronted him with questions about God’s nature, authority, and salvation. The conversation became combative and intense, lasting hours. Meanwhile, Michael’s missionary companion tried (and failed) to locate a key proof-text Michael assumed was in the Bible—something to support the Mormon idea that humans can become gods.

As the Christian man quoted passage after passage from memory, Michael felt stunned. His assumption was simple: “The Bible is supposed to be on our side.” But suddenly, it felt like Scripture was testifying against him.

That moment didn’t immediately make Michael a Christian—but it did awaken something: a hunger for certainty. Mormonism often leaves people with shifting ground—“maybe the prophet was speaking as a man,” or “maybe that revelation was partly human.” Michael didn’t want “maybe” anymore. He wanted truth that wouldn’t move. So he committed to reading the Bible and believing what it said.

Ironically, he came out of that study more convinced Mormonism was true—at least for a while. He was using the Bible, but he admits he didn’t yet understand how to interpret it faithfully. He collected scattered verses, stretched meanings, and attempted what he later calls “mental gymnastics.” If Christians had to accept the Bible, he figured, he could use it as “checkmate” to prove Mormonism.

So he finished his mission, got married, and even dropped out of college to write his book. He wanted to defend Mormonism publicly—especially as he watched media coverage during Mitt Romney’s presidential run. In Michael’s mind, Christian resistance to Romney was proof that Christians simply misunderstood Mormonism. If he could change that, he could change everything.

As his debates continued, Michael noticed something. It was relatively easy to derail conversations by raising secondary issues and watching Christians argue among themselves. But deeper down, a more unsettling pattern emerged: Christians seemed to have a clear, consistent message about salvation—while Mormon answers varied widely.

Then came a debate with Lynn Wilder (an ex-Mormon former BYU professor) that didn’t go well for him. Even his own dad joked that she “had him for breakfast.” It wasn’t just the debate performance; it was the growing realization that Christianity wasn’t merely “Mormonism with less truth.” The two messages were fundamentally different.

Michael began to feel like a lawyer for a guilty case—always twisting and stretching evidence to make it fit. And eventually he set out to confront a question that even some LDS defenders struggled to answer:

Is the Mormon gospel impossible?

The Book of Mormon’s phrasing can sound like grace is real—but only after you’ve done enough. Michael decided he would spend a year studying grace to crush the Christian idea of salvation by grace alone. But as he dug in, he discovered something shocking: Mormonism had become a tangled ball of “Christmas lights.” Words like salvation, heaven, and hell could mean multiple different things depending on the conversation. Nothing felt clean, simple, or settled.

And then he tried to prove the gospel was possible by doing the impossible: becoming perfect now. That effort crushed him. The harder he tried, the more he realized how deeply sin clung to him. The stress intensified until he felt haunted by a thought: “If you died right now, you would not go to heaven.”

A Christian friend introduced Michael to the doctrine of imputed righteousness—the idea that Jesus lived a fully righteous life on our behalf and credits His righteousness to us as a gift. Michael had never heard anything so relieving. At first it sounded too good to be true… but what if it was?

He even began to see faint “shadows” of the concept in LDS symbolism—like doing temple ordinances for the dead, where someone else performs what another person cannot. But as he finally turned to the Bible with fresh eyes, he saw the truth plainly:

Jesus is sufficient.

If Jesus has done everything needed for salvation and eternal life, then we don’t add to it. We receive it. That’s when Michael realized something he never intended: he had become a Christian. He could no longer honestly call himself a Latter-day Saint.

Eventually Michael met with Christian teacher Keith Walker, expecting to confront him. Instead, he asked for clarity—one more explanation of grace. And after hearing the gospel, Michael trusted Jesus.

His message to LDS listeners is simple and loving: Be honest about God’s standard. Perfection is required—and none of us can reach it. A god who cannot save us in our sins cannot save us at all. But the Bible proclaims good news: Jesus saves sinners completely. We don’t need extra authorities beside Scripture, because any added authority eventually replaces Scripture. And we don’t need a temple to return to God, because Jesus is the true temple—the One who did the work for us. All that remains is to receive Him by faith.

Welcome back to the podcast! Join us this week for a special episode, highlighting the updates to our website in 2026!

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The PursueGOD Truth podcast is the “easy button” for making disciples – whether you’re looking for resources to lead a family devotional, a small group at church, or a one-on-one mentoring relationship. Join us for new episodes every Tuesday and Friday.

Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org.

Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.

Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.

Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at [email protected].

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In this episode Bryan connects the dots between modern prophetic scandals and early Mormonism, exposing how unchecked authority and “new revelation” can lead to deception, cover-up culture, and spiritual harm. This episode warns all believers to test everything against the Word of God, even in the Christian church.

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The Unveiling Mormonism podcast pulls back the curtain on Mormon history, culture and doctrine. Join us for new episodes every Monday.

Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org/mormonism.

Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.

Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.

Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at [email protected].

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Imagine believing a leader hears directly from God—only to discover manipulation, deception, and hidden sin behind the scenes. Recent scandals in parts of the modern prophetic movement have exposed troubling patterns of spiritual abuse, cover-ups, and unchecked authority.

In this episode, we connect the dots between today’s prophetic controversies and similar patterns from church history—particularly early Mormonism. This isn’t about attacking charismatic Christians. It’s about recognizing red flags that can emerge whenever leaders claim special revelation and avoid accountability.

The goal? Spiritual discernment. Protecting your faith. Keeping your eyes on Jesus.

In some charismatic and Pentecostal circles, certain leaders claim to receive fresh, specific revelations from God. With social media and online platforms, these voices now have massive reach and influence.

Recent investigations have exposed:

1. Data mining disguised as prophecy
2. Manipulation through spiritual language
3. Allegations of moral failure and abuse
4. Institutional efforts to protect reputations over victims

These patterns aren’t new.

In the 1800s, Joseph Smith claimed prophetic authority and new revelation. Over time, a culture developed that:

1. Shielded leadership from accountability
2. Suppressed inconvenient truths
3. Protected institutional reputation
4. Minimized or denied moral failures

The release of the Gospel Topics Essays in 2013 revealed how long some historical realities had been obscured.

The lesson? Cover-up culture thrives wherever leaders claim unquestionable authority.

The connective tissue between past and present movements is this idea:

Scripture never elevates any modern leader above the Word of God. The Bereans in Acts 17 were commended for testing even the Apostle Paul against Scripture.

No one is above God’s Word.

Use these to evaluate any church, ministry, influencer—or even this podcast.

If questioning a leader is labeled rebellion or “touching God’s anointed,” that’s a warning sign.

Biblical leaders welcome testing. False leaders silence it.

When:

1. NDAs silence victims
2. Image protection overrides transparency
3. Whistleblowers are shamed

You may be witnessing institutional self-protection rather than shepherding.

Healthy churches have:

1. Multiple elders
2. Shared authority
3. Real oversight
4. Clear accountability structures

Unchecked, concentrated power almost always leads to corruption.

Biblically, if someone claims to speak for God and the prophecy fails, they were wrong.

Deleting videos. Reframing predictions. Moving goalposts.

These are not biblical responses.

This is the ultimate test.

If a “fresh word”:

1. Overrides Scripture
2. Adds to Scripture
3. Reinterprets clear biblical teaching
4. Elevates a leader’s voice above the Bible

It is not from God.

The canon is closed. Jesus is the final and complete revelation of God.

The enemy’s primary weapon is deception.

Cover-up culture doesn’t just damage institutions—it damages faith. When leaders fall and secrets surface, people often walk away from Jesus entirely.

But Jesus is not the problem.

Human pride and unchecked authority are.

Don’t let:

1. Spiritual hype
2. Celebrity influence
3. Emotional experiences
4. Claims of secret knowledge

Distract you from the simple, sufficient Word of God.

The Bible doesn’t point to modern prophets.

It points to Jesus.

He has nothing to hide.

He needs no cover-up.

He is enough.

1. What Is Cover-Up Culture in Prophetic Circles Today? (Article at PursueGOD.org)
2. Episodes on Mormon Gospel Topics Essays (Unveiling Mormonism Podcast)
3. Link to Mike Winger's Youtube: Mike Winger

When a Latter-day Saint (Mormon) says they believe the Bible is the Word of God, they aren't lying—but they are using a different dictionary. In this episode, we pull back the curtain on the LDS "Eighth Article of Faith" and the massive disclaimer that follows their view of Scripture: "as far as it is translated correctly." We explore the "Great and Abominable Church" narrative, the bold claims of the Joseph Smith Translation (JST), and how a "broken" Bible created a vacuum that only a modern prophet could fill. Ultimately, we compare the Mormon hierarchy of truth against the biblical claim that Jesus is the "final word," challenging listeners to return to the sufficiency of the original text.

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The Unveiling Mormonism podcast pulls back the curtain on Mormon history, culture and doctrine. Join us for new episodes every Monday.

Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org/mormonism.

Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.

Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.

Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at [email protected].

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Mormons, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), believe the Bible is the word of God, but only as far as it is translated correctly. While they value the Bible as holy scripture, they do not believe it is the final or complete authority for faith. Instead, they view it as one part of a larger collection of scriptures that includes the Book of Mormon.

To understand what Mormons believe about the Bible, you first have to look at their eighth Article of Faith. It states that they believe the Bible to be the word of God "as far as it is translated correctly." This phrase is a major pivot point. For evangelical Christians, the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, and sufficient Word of God. For a Mormon, the Bible is seen as a book that has suffered from the loss of "plain and precious parts" over centuries of translation and human interference.

Because of this perspective, the LDS Church generally uses the King James Version (KJV) but views it with a level of caution. They believe that through the centuries, many truths were removed by a corrupt church. This is why they believe a "restoration" was necessary. In their view, the Bible is a good book, but it is a damaged book that requires modern revelation to fix its perceived gaps.

Mormons often describe the Book of Mormon as "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." They believe it serves as a companion to the Bible, acting as a second witness to the divinity of Jesus. However, in practice, the Book of Mormon often takes precedence. Since they believe the Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith through divine power, they consider it the "most correct of any book on earth."

This creates a hierarchy of authority. When a biblical passage seems to contradict a teaching in the Book of Mormon or modern LDS revelation, the Bible is usually the one that is reinterpreted. For a Mormon, the Bible is the starting point, but the Book of Mormon is the clarifying finish line. They believe the two books work together to tell a more complete story of God’s dealings with humanity, specifically those in the ancient Americas.

A core belief in Mormonism is that the "canon" of scripture is not closed. While evangelical Christians point to the ending of the book of Revelation or the historical consensus of the early church to show that God has said what He needs to say in the Bible, Mormons believe God continues to speak through living prophets. This means they have three other books they consider equal to or more authoritative than the Bible: the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

When Paul wrote these words to Timothy, he was pointing to the sufficiency of God’s Word. The biblical view is that the Scriptures we have are enough to "prepare and equip" us for every good work. In contrast, the LDS view suggests that the Bible is insufficient on its own. They believe that without a living prophet and additional books, people would be lost in a sea of confusion regarding the Bible's "missing" parts.

One of the most unique aspects of the Mormon view of the Bible is the "Joseph Smith Translation" or the Inspired Version. Joseph Smith did not translate this from original Greek or Hebrew manuscripts. Instead, he went through the King James Bible and "corrected" verses or added long passages based on what he claimed were direct revelations from God. Many Mormons use a Bible that contains footnotes or an appendix with these JST changes.

These changes often fundamentally alter Christian theology. For example, Smith added details to the book of Genesis that support Mormon-specific doctrines regarding the nature of man and the "Plan of Salvation." By doing this, the LDS church effectively moves the goalposts. Instead of testing their prophets against the Bible, they use their prophets to change the Bible so it fits their preferred narrative.

At the heart of the matter is the person of Jesus. The Bible presents Jesus as the eternal, uncreated God—the Word who was with God and was God (John 1:1). In the Mormon view, the Bible’s description of Jesus is supplemented by the Book of Mormon, which teaches that Jesus is the literal "elder brother" of humanity and the firstborn spirit child of Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother.

While Mormons will use biblical language to talk about Jesus, the definitions behind those words are different. They believe the Bible is a record of Jesus’s ministry in the Middle East, while the Book of Mormon records His supposed ministry in the Americas after His resurrection. This "additional" information often leads to a version of Jesus that looks quite different from the one described by the original apostles in the New Testament.

Mormons believe the Bible is the word of God, but they do not believe it is the final word. They see it as a beautiful but flawed book that has been corrupted over time. To "fix" these flaws, they rely on the Book of Mormon and the words of their living prophets. For the biblical Christian, the Bible remains the supreme and sufficient authority, whereas for the Mormon, it is just one piece of a much larger, evolving puzzle.

WHY DID JESUS HAVE TO BECOME HUMAN? (CHRISTOLOGY 2)

Last week, we began our journey through Hebrews by focusing on Christ’s divine nature. In just four verses, we saw that Jesus is the agent, purpose, sustainer, and ruler of creation. He is fully God—uncreated, eternal, and the exact expression of God’s nature. That was a lot of theology packed into a small space.

Today we slow down and move to Christology part two: Jesus’ human nature. This raises a crucial question for Christians then and now: Why did Jesus have to become human?

The theological term for this is the incarnation—the central Christian belief that the eternal Son of God took on human nature in the person of Jesus Christ. Importantly, Jesus did not stop being God when He came to earth. He retained His divine nature and added a fully human nature. This means Jesus is one person with two distinct natures: fully God and fully man. No other being in the universe exists like this.

While on earth, Jesus didn’t “turn off” His divine power. Instead, He chose not to exercise His divine attributes independently. He lived in complete dependence on the Holy Spirit. The early church called this mystery the hypostatic union. It’s deep theology, but the book of Hebrews doesn’t present it as abstract theory. It presents it as good news.

Let’s slow down and read our passage for the day:

Hebrews 2:14–18 (NLT)

Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death. Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying…

From this passage, Hebrews gives us seven reasons Jesus had to become human.

First, Jesus became human because we are human. Since God’s children are flesh and blood, the Son also became flesh and blood. Only a human could represent the human race before God. To save humanity, the Savior had to belong to humanity. In God’s courtroom of justice, Jesus stands as our representative—one who truly understands our condition.

Second, Jesus became human so He could die. Death is the penalty for sin, established by God from the beginning. This is the great paradox of the gospel: the Author of life became mortal. If Jesus had remained only divine, He could not have died—and if He could not die, we could not overcome death. Hebrews later reminds us that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

Third, Jesus became human so He could break the power of the devil. Hebrews says that through death, Jesus destroyed the one who had the power of death. Satan once held the authority to accuse humanity and hold eternal separation over our heads. Notice the tense—had the power of death. Through the cross, that authority was broken.

Fourth, Jesus became human to set us free from the fear of death. Death is still inevitable, but it no longer has the final word. In the ancient world, death was a constant companion, and fear of it shaped daily life. The Christian hope of resurrection transformed everything. As Paul later declared, “O death, where is your victory?” Christians don’t have to live as slaves to fear anymore.

Fifth, Jesus became human so He could be our high priest. A priest bridges the gap between a holy God and broken people. Jesus had to be made like us in every respect to fulfill this role. He is merciful toward our weakness and faithful toward God’s holiness. Hebrews will return to this theme again and again.

Sixth, Jesus became human so He could be our sacrifice. In the Old Testament, priests offered animals. In the New Covenant, the Priest is the sacrifice. This is the ultimate power move of grace: Jesus offered Himself to take away the sins of the people.

Seventh, Jesus became human so He could help us in our testing. Hebrews was written to believers facing persecution and temptation to give up. Jesus understands. He was abandoned, tempted, grieving, and suffering. Because He endured testing Himself, He is able to help us when we are tested.

The author later sums it up beautifully: because Jesus is our great High Priest, we can come boldly to God’s throne. If Jesus had remained distant in heaven, God’s throne would be a place of terrifying judgment—a “Keep Out” sign for sinners. But because Jesus added a human nature to His divine nature, God is now approachable.

You don’t have to clean yourself up. You don’t need fancy words. You come boldly—not because you are worthy, but because Jesus is. At the throne of grace, we receive mercy, not judgment.

In this episode, Brandi and AJ share how unanswered questions, painful discovery, and an honest search for truth led them from “grinding for godhood” in Mormonism to encountering the real Jesus of the Bible.

Check out Brandi's Book: The Journey to Jesus: Finding Christ after Leaving Mormonism

Brandi's Instagram

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The Unveiling Mormonism podcast pulls back the curtain on Mormon history, culture and doctrine. Join us for new episodes every Monday.

Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org/mormonism.

Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.

Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.

Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at [email protected].

Donate Now

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Brandi and AJ were doing everything “right.” They were BYU grads, married, building a life, raising kids, and fully committed to the LDS vision of a faithful future. AJ describes it like “grinding for godhood”—a life built on steps, worthiness, temple goals, and constant striving. But then the foundation started to crack.

For AJ, some of the doctrinal history raised unsettling questions (including ideas like “blood atonement,” which they mention they’ll unpack later). For Brandi, the tipping point was watching changes in the LDS church after COVID and feeling like the church was shifting in a more progressive direction. She tried to address it the way a devoted member would: she wrote letters to Salt Lake City headquarters about what she saw as inconsistency—especially related to abortion and human life. She wasn’t trying to tear anything down. She genuinely believed the LDS church was true, and she wanted it to be consistent.

But the response felt dismissive—more like a polite pat on the head than a meaningful engagement. That frustration pushed them into a place they never thought they’d go: researching.

Brandi makes an important clarification: they weren’t hunting for “gotcha” moments. They didn’t go searching because they assumed the church was false. In fact, they needed it to be true. That’s why reading outside sources felt dangerous. AJ describes that fear as avoiding the “cognitive dissonance fire”—because their hearts were convinced, and they didn’t want their minds persuaded that everything was a lie.

But once they started reading, the “genie” didn’t go back in the bottle.

They looked at sources like MormonThink because it included multiple perspectives—both critical claims and apologetic responses. That felt more balanced. Still, it wasn’t official, and Brandi felt guilty even being there. Eventually, as more historical issues piled up (like multiple First Vision accounts, questions surrounding the Book of Abraham, and other details they had never been taught), Brandi felt desperate for the church itself to clarify things. So they turned to the Gospel Topics Essays—official LDS content hosted on the LDS website.

That’s where everything shifted.

Instead of restoring confidence, the essays confirmed key issues and, in Brandi’s view, exposed more “spin” than clarity. For the first time, she seriously wrestled with the question: What if the church isn’t true?

AJ explains how people often survive early doubts by “nuancing” their faith—making room for uncomfortable data while keeping the system intact. But eventually, they reached a crossroads: Would they live in a growing pile of nuance just to keep the community and structure—or would they follow truth wherever it led, even if it cost them everything?

For them, it took about six months of intense study—re-reading, checking footnotes, cross-referencing sources, and trying to disprove what they were learning. And then came a painful realization: staying “for the good parts” wasn’t enough. They feared raising their kids inside something they no longer believed—only to have their kids later say, “You knew, and you still taught us.”

So they left.

They explain why this often leads to losing all faith. Mormonism doesn’t just shape beliefs—it shapes identity, habits, relationships, and your entire framework for “the good life.” If you were taught you had the pinnacle of truth—and it collapses—then everything else can feel like lesser options or chaos.

AJ’s next step was simple: keep morality, keep family values, and “worship God in the mountains.” Brandi’s journey was darker at first. For a moment, atheism felt peaceful—like relief from endless striving and spiritual pressure. But that peace didn’t last. Holding her baby, she started asking deeper questions: Why is there something rather than nothing? Where does consciousness come from? Can I really trust my feelings to define truth?

She realized she needed sturdier ground than emotion and authority.

Brandi began exploring arguments for God, morality, and the reliability of the Old Testament. That season pulled her into what she calls her “Jewish era”—not literally converting, but deeply studying the Hebrew Scriptures and seeing how unique the Bible’s ethical monotheism really is.

But she also noticed something: the story didn’t feel finished.

Eventually, the Old Testament pushed her toward the question she didn’t want to touch: Jesus. After years of associating His name with LDS pain and betrayal, she approached Jesus through a historical lens: Who was this man who changed the world’s calendar? Why does every major worldview have to deal with Him?

Then she went straight to the hinge point: the resurrection.

Because if Jesus rose from the dead, He is not just a teacher—He is Lord. And if He is Lord, then Christianity isn’t another “system.” It’s a surrender. Brandi describes the moment she felt the implications land: If this is true, it’s the most important event in human history.

AJ’s journey took a different route. He had to be confronted with sin—not just mistakes, but real guilt before a holy God. The Bible dismantled his “good person” confidence. He began to see that the gospel isn’t self-improvement. It’s rescue.

That’s the contrast they highlight:

1. In Mormonism, the “problem” is untapped potential.
2. In Christianity, the problem is sin and separation from God.
3. In Mormonism, the “solution” is a system of ordinances and obedience.
4. In Christianity, the solution is Jesus—His finished work, received by faith.

And that’s where their story is headed: not toward a better version of themselves, but toward a Savior who actually saves.

Scripture References (NLT): Jeremiah 29:13; Mark 4:9; Isaiah 53:5-6; Romans 3:10-12; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.

Big Idea: Jesus Christ is not just a chapter in the story of God; He is the Author, the Hero, and the Ending. When we see Jesus for who He truly is, every other priority in our lives finds its proper place.

Today we begin a nine-week journey through the Book of Hebrews, a letter written to magnify the greatness of Jesus Christ. Hebrews isn’t primarily about religious rules, moral improvement, or spiritual techniques. It’s about Jesus—who He is and what He has done. Everything else flows from that foundation.

The original audience was likely Jewish Christians living under Roman rule, facing intense persecution. As pressure mounted, many were tempted to abandon their faith in Jesus and return to the familiarity and safety of traditional Judaism. Hebrews speaks directly into that tension with one clear message: Jesus is greater than anyone or anything that came before Him. To walk away from Him would be to walk away from the fulfillment of all God’s promises.

The author of Hebrews remains anonymous, one of the great mysteries of the New Testament. While Paul may have influenced it, the writing style is far more polished and rhetorically sophisticated than Paul’s letters. Hebrews chapter 1 proves this immediately. Verses 1–4 form a single, majestic sentence in the original Greek—an exordium, designed to grab attention with both beauty and weight.

Hebrews 1:1–4 (NLT) sets the stage:

In the Old Testament, God spoke in fragments—a dream here, a burning bush there, a prophet’s warning along the way. But in Jesus, God didn’t just send messages; He sent the Message. This is Christology—the study of the person and work of Jesus Christ—and Hebrews wastes no time getting to the point.

In verses 2–3, the author unleashes a rapid-fire description of Jesus using seven distinct attributes. In Scripture, the number seven represents completeness and perfection. Together, these form a full portrait of the Son.

Jesus is the Heir—the goal of history. God has promised everything to Him as an inheritance. History is not random; it is moving toward the coronation of King Jesus. He is the “why” behind all creation.

Jesus is the Creator—the architect of reality. Through Him, God made the universe. Jesus is not a created being; He is the source of all things. Nothing exists apart from His will.

Jesus is the Radiance—the shining glory of God. He doesn’t merely reflect God’s glory like the moon reflects sunlight; He radiates it. The Son is the visible manifestation of the invisible God—“Light from Light.”

Jesus is the Expression—the exact imprint of God’s nature. The Greek word charaktēr refers to a stamp or seal. Jesus doesn’t resemble God; He perfectly represents Him. To see Jesus is to see God.

Jesus is the Sustainer—the glue of the cosmos. He holds everything together by the power of His word. The universe doesn’t persist on autopilot; it endures because Jesus commands it to.

Jesus is the Savior—the cleanser of sin. When He purified us from our sins, the work was finished. Unlike Old Testament priests who never sat down, Jesus completed the work once for all.

Finally, Jesus is the Ruler—the seated King. He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven, a position of total authority. The victory is won.

Hebrews 1:4 reminds us that Jesus is far greater than angels, traditions, or anything else we might be tempted to trust. For believers facing hardship, this truth re-centers everything.

The message of Hebrews is clear: It’s all about Jesus. When we see Him rightly, everything else falls into place.

In this episode, Bryan sits down with Brandi and AJ to hear how a lifetime of devotion to Mormon exaltation turned into what they call “grinding for godhood”—a relentless pursuit of worthiness, temple marriage, and eternal approval. Their story reveals the hidden pressure of a works-based faith and sets the stage for how God began to unravel everything they thought was true.

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The Unveiling Mormonism podcast pulls back the curtain on Mormon history, culture and doctrine. Join us for new episodes every Monday.

Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org/mormonism.

Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.

Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.

Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at [email protected].

Donate Now

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Check out Brandi's Book: The Journey to Jesus: Finding Christ after Leaving Mormonism

In this episode, Bryan talks with Brandi and AJ, two former Mormons who were fully committed to their faith from childhood. Brandi introduces a phrase that captures their experience perfectly: “grinding for godhood.” It describes a life shaped by striving—keeping covenants, qualifying for temple blessings, and doing everything necessary to reach exaltation.

Brandi explains that from a young age she believed her purpose was to tap into her divine nature and eventually become like God. This wasn’t driven by ego or a desire to be worshiped. It felt like obligation—this is what I was created for, and I have to take it seriously.

AJ felt the same pressure. The temple represented the ultimate goal: exaltation, eternal family, and eternal progression. Getting to the temple—and staying worthy—was everything.

For Brandi, godhood wasn’t just a “male” idea. She fully expected to become like a “Heavenly Mother,” even though Heavenly Mother was rarely discussed in Mormonism. Eternity was tied to temple marriage, which meant finding the right husband wasn’t optional—it was essential.

That belief raised the stakes on dating, college decisions, and life itself.

AJ grew up in Utah, where Mormonism was normal and rarely questioned. Brandi grew up in California, constantly interacting with non-Mormons and Christians who challenged her beliefs. Instead of weakening her faith, that pressure made her more confident and outspoken.

Brandi actively debated theology, defended the Restoration, and gave Book of Mormons to friends and teachers—believing she was sharing something life-changing.

At BYU Provo, the urgency intensified. Brandi describes the dating culture as competitive and stressful. Being single as a junior or senior felt like failure. Marriage wasn’t just about love—it was about eternity.

When Brandi and AJ began dating, the pressure followed them into engagement. Brandi admits she feared something tragic might happen before they were sealed in the temple. Eternity felt fragile, dependent on timing, worthiness, and obedience.

Brandi explains receiving her endowment and garments—milestones she had looked forward to for years. They symbolized progress toward exaltation. Yet at the same time, she felt uncomfortable with the legalism and image-driven culture she saw in Utah Mormonism.

She loved Mormon theology and the idea of living the “higher law,” but she also felt suffocated by expectations to look perfect and hide weakness.

Neither Brandi nor AJ were looking to leave Mormonism. They loved it. Their families were all in. But cracks began to form.

AJ’s started when he learned about blood atonement in a BYU religion class—something he had never heard despite years in the church. It forced him to reconsider the claim that prophets would never teach error.

Brandi’s concerns began with leadership decisions and perceived contradictions. Those questions eventually led them to consider researching issues more deeply—something they had been taught to avoid.

They describe that moment as frightening and disorienting. Looking outside approved sources felt wrong, even sinful. But once they started asking honest questions, everything changed.

The episode ends on a cliffhanger as Brandi and AJ stand at the edge of a journey they never planned to take.

In this episode, Bryan and Layne show why the Holy Spirit isn’t a reward you earn or a feeling you chase—but God’s personal presence given to everyone who trusts in the real Jesus.

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The Unveiling Mormonism podcast pulls back the curtain on Mormon history, culture and doctrine. Join us for new episodes every Monday.

Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org/mormonism.

Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.

Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.

Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at [email protected].

Donate Now

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In the last episode, we talked about how a biblical church doesn’t need one “capital P” Prophet to speak for God. Jesus didn’t set up His church to be led by a single man with exclusive access to heaven’s messages. Instead, the book of Acts shows something radically different: God gives His Holy Spirit to every believer, revealing truth through Scripture and confirming it through the people of God.

But here’s the question that hits closer to home: How does the Holy Spirit work on a personal level?

That’s where this conversation gets especially helpful—because Layne lived for 40 years inside Mormonism, where the Holy Spirit is often treated like something you earn, maintain, or even lose. And if you grew up LDS, you know the anxiety: Do I have the Holy Ghost? Did I lose it? Am I worthy enough today?

In Mormon teaching, people are told about the “gift of the Holy Ghost,” along with ideas like “confirmations,” “warm feelings,” and the famous “burning in the bosom.” It’s often described as something that comes after baptism, through priesthood hands, and after ongoing obedience and ordinances.

But here’s the problem: many Latter-day Saints live with what Layne calls Holy Spirit insecurity.

You might feel something during prayer or a testimony meeting—then you mess up later and wonder if God is gone. The whole cycle can become spiritually exhausting, emotionally draining, and mentally confusing. Instead of a steady relationship with God, you’re chasing a spiritual signal that feels like it comes and goes.

One of the practical moments in this episode is when the guys stop and talk about pronouns—because it reveals something deeper.

In biblical Christianity, the Holy Spirit isn’t an impersonal force. He is a person. Not a “thing” or “energy” or “vibe.” He has personhood. That’s why Christians speak of Him as “He,” not because the Spirit has a gender, but because He’s personal—God Himself dwelling in believers.

Mormonism may technically describe the Holy Ghost as a person, but it’s within a very different framework: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as separate beings (and functionally separate gods). That changes everything. Instead of God’s direct presence, the Holy Ghost becomes more like a messenger—someone sent—while leaving people unsure what God the Father is doing, and unsure whether they can really trust what they’re experiencing.

A big “aha” in this conversation is how Mormon “spiritual feelings” often function differently than Christian worship and discipleship.

In many Christian settings, feelings can be part of worship—people may feel deeply connected to God. But in Mormonism, the emotional goal often shifts toward something else:

1. Feeling affirmed that the church is true
2. Feeling confirmed that Joseph Smith was a prophet
3. Feeling validated that “we can’t all be wrong”
4. Feeling like you made the right choice by staying loyal

Layne describes how testimony meetings can become an emotional loop where everyone repeats the same ideas in a “vanilla” way, and the shared group emotion becomes “evidence.” It turns subjective, and over time, it trains people not only how to think—but how to feel.

And if you’re not feeling it? You hide it. You fake it. You wonder what’s wrong with you.

That’s not the freedom Jesus offers.

Here’s the clearest contrast of the entire episode:

In the Bible, the Holy Spirit is not earned. He is received.

Jesus promises that those who believe will receive the Spirit:

1. John 7:38–39 explains that the “living water” Jesus offers is the Holy Spirit, given to everyone who believes.
2. Galatians 3:2 says believers receive the Spirit by faith, not by works.
3. Ephesians 1:13 says when you believed in Christ, you were marked as God’s own by the promised Holy Spirit.

That means you don’t have to wonder every day whether you “still have Him.” You don’t have to earn His presence with performance. When you trust Jesus—the Jesus of the Bible—God seals you as His own.

And that leads to an important (and challenging) statement: Mormonism offers counterfeits—of Jesus, the gospel, and the Holy Spirit. The goal of this episode isn’t to help people “fake it better.” It’s to call people to the real Christ and the real Spirit.

John 16:13–14 makes it clear: the Holy Spirit guides believers into truth, and that truth centers on one thing—glorifying Jesus.

That becomes a diagnostic question:

Is “the Spirit” you’re following pointing you to a prophet—or pointing you to Christ?

If your spiritual experiences consistently push you toward trusting a man, a system, or an institution as the ultimate authority, that should raise red flags. The Holy Spirit’s mission is to make Christ clearer, not to make a prophet central.

Layne ends with five “fruit checks”—not to prove you have the Spirit (faith in Jesus settles that), but to show what the Spirit produces over time:

1. Love for God’s Word and truth
2. Conviction of sin and repentance without shame
3. Joy and peace not dependent on circumstances
4. Christlike character (the fruit of the Spirit)
5. Dependence on Christ instead of earning God’s favor

The real evidence isn’t a momentary feeling—it’s long-term transformation.

And that’s good news: because even when you don’t “feel” spiritual, you can still trust God’s promises. Faith isn’t following emotions. Faith is trusting the Word of God—and the Spirit uses that truth to change you from the inside out.

In this episode, Bryan and Layne show from Acts and the Old Testament that Jesus didn’t set up His church to be led by “one guy,” but by the Holy Spirit—giving every believer direct access to God with Jesus as the Head.

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The Unveiling Mormonism podcast pulls back the curtain on Mormon history, culture and doctrine. Join us for new episodes every Monday.

Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org/mormonism.

Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.

Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.

Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at [email protected].

Donate Now

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Many people assume that if God is real, and if the church matters, then God must lead His people through one central human authority—one prophet, one president, one pope, one voice you can always trust. That’s a natural assumption, especially if you grew up in a system where spiritual certainty came from the top down.

In Mormonism, that “one guy” model is baked into the culture. You’re taught to trust the prophet’s voice. You stand when he enters. You sing songs about him. You learn, subtly, to confuse the voice of the Spirit with the voice of a leader. And over time, it can become so normal that you don’t even notice what’s happening: you start substituting God’s voice for the voice of man.

But here’s the key question: Is that how Jesus set up His church to work?

When we open the Bible, the answer is clear—no. Jesus did not design His church to depend on one human “main character” who can’t be questioned. Instead, Jesus promised something far more personal, more powerful, and more stable: He would lead His church by the Holy Spirit, with Jesus as the Head.

If you want to understand how God leads the church, you have to start in Acts 1:8. Right before Jesus ascends to heaven, He gives His disciples their mission: they will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes, and they will be His witnesses—starting in Jerusalem and spreading outward to the ends of the earth. Acts 1:8

Notice what’s missing: Jesus doesn’t single out Peter and say, “I’ll speak through him now.” He doesn’t announce an ongoing chain of centralized authority. Instead, He points them to the Spirit’s power and the global mission ahead.

Then comes Acts 2, and it’s one of the most important moments in church history. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit comes—not on one leader—but on all believers gathered together. That’s the point. The Spirit is not reserved for one office or one “elite” class. God’s presence is now available to every follower of Jesus. Acts 2:1-4

That alone challenges the entire “one guy” model.

Mormons and Catholics both appeal to the idea of apostolic succession. But the New Testament treats the original apostles as something unique: a foundation.

Paul says the church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.” Ephesians 2:20

A foundation is laid once. You don’t rebuild it every generation.

Acts itself supports this. After Judas dies (after betraying Jesus), the apostles replace him to restore the Twelve. Acts 1:15-26 But later, when James is martyred, the church doesn’t replace him. Acts 12:1-2 Why? Because Judas was a special case tied to betrayal and the completion of the Twelve. The apostles were the original witnesses of Christ and the beginning foundation of the church—not an endlessly refilled office.

This wasn’t a last-minute change. God promised long before Jesus came that He would make a new covenant—one where His law wouldn’t merely be written on stone tablets, but written on hearts.

Jeremiah prophesied that a day was coming when people wouldn’t need someone to constantly say, “Know the Lord,” because they would know Him personally. Jeremiah 31:31-34

That’s exactly what happens through the Holy Spirit. God doesn’t just hand you more rules. He comes to live in you—transforming you from the inside out.

Paul confronts religious legalism head-on in Galatians. He asks believers how they received the Holy Spirit: by obeying rules, or by believing the message about Christ?

His answer is unmistakable: you received the Spirit because you believed. Galatians 3:2

And he warns them not to start in the Spirit and then attempt to “become perfect by your own human effort.” Galatians 3:3

That “Jesus plus” mindset is exactly what traps people in religious systems. It keeps you dependent—always needing the next instruction, the next worthiness check, the next leader to tell you what God “really” wants.

But Christianity is different: Jesus is the final revelation of God, and the Spirit is God’s presence given to every believer. John 14:26

So how does God lead His church today? Not through a single unchallengeable authority. He leads through a beautiful, stabilizing “trifecta”:

1. God’s Spirit living in every believer. Acts 2:1-4
2. God’s Word as the final, trustworthy authority. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
3. God’s People—a Spirit-filled community that restores, corrects, and encourages with humility. Galatians 6:1

That’s why Christianity doesn’t collapse into chaos without a prophet-president. The Holy Spirit produces fruit—love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control—in real people living real lives. Galatians 5:22-23

And when believers stumble, the solution isn’t spiritual exile. The solution is restoration—helping each other back onto the right path.

That’s the new way Jesus promised. That’s what the Bible teaches. And that’s why a personal relationship with God is not a “bonus feature” of Christianity—it’s the whole point.

Jesus is the Head of the church. The Spirit is the guide. And every believer is invited into direct, personal access to God—no middleman required.