What's the value?

The more I learn about life the more I learn that almost everything is a paradox. Most of life is constantly trying to balance the duality and tension that exists. If we go too far in one direction that causes problems and if in our efforts to correct that we go too far in the other direction--more problems. The conversation I had with Michelle highlighted this tension in a very real and meaningful way. She started off stating "courage" as her most important value. She wants to be outside her comfort zone, she wants to set big goals no one believes in, and she wants to be unapologetically true to who she is. 

As I learned more about Michelle's past I started to see that balancing act come into view. Michelle had a tough childhood, trying to fit in with her Indian roots/culture while also trying to fit into her American community, trying to live up to the expectations set for her, and even trying to overcome the trauma of sexual assault. As she stated, she felt broken and thought she was incapable of achieving anything. So what did she do? She did the extremely hard work of trying to build herself back up. She committed to building her courage, self-worth, and motivation so she could realize how capable she really was. As she did this though, she found herself running into conflict with her family and spending excessive amounts of money on personal coaching. Her friends and family worried that she wasn't focused enough on relationships or wasn't being financially responsible. Even with the best of intentions, that tension is always there. 

You even hear it pop up as Michelle talks about her background and accomplishments. She is a coach, TEDx speaker, 2X best selling author (with plans for another best selling book soon), and she's been featured on the Tonight Show and done interviews with people like Dr. Deepak Chopra. All amazing accomplishments for anyone, especially someone who had to overcome what she did. But how do balance that tension to not let the aim of achievement and success take over? How do you stop your ego from taking control and taking you too far in that direction? 

I don't know the answer to these questions and Michelle doesn't either (no one does). But what she does have is a willingness to ask the questions. Through her work she is committed to trying to be more aware, be more true to herself, and to use her knowledge to help others (especially teenagers) to increase their confidence and live a life they fully love.

Pastor Ken, as he is known by his members, is a pastor, best-selling author, business executive, husband, father, and community leader, whose entire life has been dedicated to the service of others. That sounds like just a line from a bio, but as you will hear in this conversation it is quite real for him--dedicating himself to the service of others. Here is the cool part though, he fully acknowledges that being "helpful" and serving others is not natural for him, it is a struggle, and the only reason he is able to do it is because he's been working at it his entire life. There is something so fascinating about that to me; the idea that helping others or being a "good" person can take so much work. 

Ken is the author of 4 books and a children book series mainly focused on divorce and fatherhood, so we spent a good bit of time talking about those topics. It was really interesting to hear Ken talk about his value of "helpfulness" and how it played out in the context of his own divorce. It illustrated that tension of trying to be good and do the right thing by your family while managing your own ego and pain. I often say the math doesn't seem to check out. When we run the calculation in our minds of what it takes to be a good person, it seems to spit out an answer that says you are better off being more selfish than you are being helpful to others. So we tried to explore that and understand what made someone like Ken able to go against the "math."

Obviously faith plays a role in this, but what I found really impactful was Ken's openness to acknowledge he is not entirely sure why he does it. There are some lived experiences and influence from his family, but if he's really honest he's not sure why he decided to focus on it so much. And if you think about it that is a really profound idea, because it suggests everyone has the potential to focus their lives on helping others. It is a choice we all get to make every day, not an easy choice, but a choice none the less. The question then becomes how can we know that helping others is actually the "right" choice--but that is a conversation for another day.

Simply put, my guest Alex is trying to fix the internet and social media. He believes that the consumption of too much "junk information" is the at the root of most of the problems we face in society. When so much of the information available to us is "junk" is causes inefficiencies. It is harder to make good decisions because you can’t extract useful information and/or you end up spending an inordinate amount of time and effort with a low return. His solution is Otherweb (https://otherweb.com/), a new platform he created that allows its readers to read news and commentary, listen to podcasts and search the web - without paywalls, clickbait, ads, autoplaying videos, affiliate links, or any other junk.

If that sounds like a monumental and idealistic task, I agree with you. If it sounds like, even if Alex did succeed, there is a massive risk of censorship, corruption, and abuse of power, I agree with you. In fact, Alex agrees with you too. That was part of what made this discussion so fascinating. Alex is an engineer who understands that to build new systems you need to make assumptions and take risks; BUT there are steps you can take to mitigate those risks. There are constraints you can put in place to protect yourself and the company from losing itself or straying from its mission. This gets right to the heart of accepting the imperfections of the human mind and having the humility and the foresight to account for those imperfections up front.

I truly enjoyed this conversation as much as any other one I've had since doing this podcast. To talk through Alex's perspective, approach, and assumptions was really thought provoking; and the topics it opened up for us to discuss (e.g., nature of ideas, pessimism about the trajectory of humanity, morality, philosopher kings, and a lot more) were super interesting as well. Neither Alex or I can be sure if he will succeed in his mission (or even if it is the right mission to pursue), but that is life. This is a beautiful example of how you can be thoughtful, humble, cautious, and logical--while still taking bold actions to try to make the world a better place. 

My guest today, Andy, is a mindset coach and human behavior specialist who teaches people how to understand their own behavior and to use their mind to create a life that inspires them (https://www.andycampbell.com.au/). If you're like me, you hear something like that and you wonder what exactly it means. The words sound a little abstract and there are so many "self help coaches" out there selling snake oil that it makes skeptical. Andy actually started the show with a story of a woman suffering from terrible guilt and grief who was "cured" during a workshop he attended (skepticism increasing). So we did exactly what this show is designed to do, we got to work exploring and dissecting this idea.

Listen, I will always believe life is far too complex and our minds are far too flawed for any quick fixes, but what Andy explained to me during the episode was far from a quick fix. He explained an approach that is rooted in fundamental laws of science and math. To sum it up in my words, Andy believes that every event, experience, and person we connect with in our lives is ultimately net neutral. Every positive charge has an equal and corresponding negative charge. So if you are in a relationship and you love your partner and all the amazing things about them, that is very real, but there are also negatives about them too. The importance of this concept is that once you accept it, it becomes much harder to stay upset if that relationship were to end, because you have a more accurate view and can acknowledge what you "lost" was net neutral.

We discussed a lot of things in this episode including authenticity, the nature of values, and even faith vs. certainty, but maybe most interesting was pressure testing this net neutral concept. We explored how far we can take it--how about the death of a child? Are we still sticking to the idea that we shouldn't be upset about the death of a child because their existence was actually just net neutral? It was fascinating and insightful to hear Andy's thoughts, because it illustrated how thoughtful his approach is and (even if you don't agree with it) that he is far from the snake oil salesmen my skepticism might have feared.

I find the concept of "power" fascinating because, like my guest Hesha, I think power dynamics are at the root of most, if not all, of the conflict in the world. As Hesha stated with her own value, it does not feel good to be powerless. When we feel like we aren't in control or are helpless; we lash out, we get depressed, we shut down--all things that significantly reduce the quality of our lives. That is why she dedicated so much of her life to understanding power dynamics and identifying strategies and tools to help them work in your favor. Her goal is for people to take their power back and get what they want out of life. 

Hesha wrote a book "Holding The Calm" (https://www.holdingthecalm.com/) which is a guide to all of the things she has learned through her life to manage power and conflict. What maybe was most interesting and impressive about all of her work is how she gained this knowledge herself. She has spent most of her career as an attorney and mediator brokering huge settlements with companies like Amazon, Apple, Chevron, and Google--so that certainly went a long way to understanding power dynamics and conflict. But beyond that she also has spent significant time just studying life. She grew up in what she would call a dysfunctional, unhealthy family and spent her earlier years trying to figure out a better way to live. She also spent time working at hospice centers learning from people that were getting ready to die. What a way to learn about how to live, by studying people who are at the end of the game reflecting on their experiences.

You know I can't help but get philosophical as well, so we also spent some time talking about the inevitably of power dynamics. Is the reality that there will always be "carnivores" out there who take power and control the world, or is there a chance for humans to evolve and find a way to share power? And if so, what are the trade-offs if we do evolve in that way; would it result in a loss of drive or innovation? Would humanity definitely be better off? A big thanks to Hesha for being on and sharing her experiences.

It's amazing the types of conversations you can have when both people go in with a strong foundation of humility, curiosity, and thoughtfulness. There is such an opportunity to explore each other's beliefs, question our assumptions, examine interesting aspects of life, in honest and open ways. I say it all the time, because it is true--this is where the learning happens. This is where I uncover insights about myself and the world around me that I never could have otherwise. That is why I enjoyed this conversation so much with my guest Lisa. We discussed and debated some fundamental questions about life, like:

As a way of background, Lisa is a parenting author, a nationally syndicated columnist, and a radio host. She writes the syndicated opinion column “It Is What It Is” and is the author of "How to Raise Perfectly Imperfect Kids And Be Ok With It" (along with a number of other books). She is also a survivor of suicide loss and is a vocal advocate for suicide awareness & prevention, most notably working as a crisis counselor with the Trevor Project (whose mission is to end suicide among LGBTQ young people). As you will hear, Lisa has unfortunately had a long history with suicide, including her father who died when she was 10 but she did not find out for over 30 years that he actually took his own life. 

We ended the conversation talking about the work Lisa is doing now around suicide prevention. We talked about her relationship with suicide now and what she has learned from her time as a crisis counselor. Hearing Lisa share her insights from some of the most intense conversations any human will ever be a part of was really powerful. I can't thank her enough for being on the show and for all the great work she is doing.

This episode feels fitting coming off of the Christmas holiday, since my guest Johnathan and I spent a good bit of the episode talking about Jesus Christ. Johnathan was a triple major in college in Philosophy, History and Political Science and currently hosts his own podcast, "The Truth Of The Matter Is" (https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1575310563 - focused on providing an honest, contextual, historical and philosophy view of the Bible). I found that mix of majors really interesting because each of those disciplines are very much focused on trying to find answers. That is the journey Johnathan has been on, spending most of his life searching for the truth. It was only when he found the bible and the teaching of Jesus though, that he was convinced he found the truth.

Johnathan's value was bringing love, light, and truth to the world by living the word of Jesus. As you will hear from the first 20 minutes, he is extremely well read and can quote specific verses from all the books of the bible. Johnathan isn't someone who just talks about religion and faith, he appears to embody it every day. His goal in life is to be a good and faithful servant to God/Jesus. While I completely respect that, words like servant, worship, obedience-- words so common when talking about a relationship with God-- never sat right with me. Something about them made it feel like "religion" is missing the point. 

We used a hypothetical (and provocative) scenario to explore this.  If Jesus were here today and was given 2 options:

I have to believe, if what we are told about him is true, that he wouldn’t even consider the first option. The idea of majoring on recognition and worship above the ultimate goal is inconceivable. To be able to think through all of this with someone as knowledgeable, curious, and passionate as Johnathan was a real pleasure.

This was a fun conversation with my guest Flobo. As you will hear right out of the gate, Flobo is high energy and an entertainer. He is a professional comedian, an esports commentator/caster, a DJ, he runs his own podcast network, and he’s personal branding thought leader. He stated “time management” as his number one value but as we worked through the conversation it became apparent that creating a legacy was also high on his list.

That made for an interesting conversation because I find the idea of legacy really fascinating. I think for a lot of people they think of creating a legacy as the ultimate form of success—and understandably so. If you can be remembered after you’re gone and still have an impact on people’s lives that feels like the epitome of your life having meaning. But inherent in legacy is ego. To care about legacy, to take the steps to create one, and to need that external validation is all rooted in ego. So Flobo and I hit that head on and talked about the nuance of ego and how we should manage it.

We talked about people like Steve Jobs or Michael Jordan and debated if their egos were ultimately net positive or negative. Is it OK to put personal relationships, family, and at times yourself aside, for a greater purpose and vision?

Maybe my favorite line from this conversation though, was when Flobo was talking about the first time “someone gives you money to be yourself.” That is a powerful concept. And I think in many ways he lives his life around this idea. He only knows how to be himself, to entertain, to understand people and how to make them feel good, and how to constantly seek more success. I’ll never get tired of talking to people from all different walks of life, with all different aspirations and perspectives--so a big thanks to Flobo for sharing his.

It is not a mistake or a typo that the title of this show has a "blank" for the value selected. And that is also not a knock on my guest, Alex, suggesting he was indecisive or unable to commit to one value. As we discussed during the show, leaving the value blank was the most honest thing I could put after the conversation we had. Anything else would have felt forced or contrived.

To back up for a moment, Alex is perhaps one of the most curious humans I've ever met. He is a young philosopher who also hosts his own podcast, "Escaping Mediocrity" (link here- https://open.spotify.com/show/5uSwZMzzAid5tNivJIOKMt) and has a deep interest in trying to understand humanity and existence. He goes about this in a pure Socratic/logical way. As you know, I am someone who likes to question and challenge everything, but Alex takes this to whole other level. Right from the jump you got an idea of the kind of "attacking" style (I mean that in a good way) he takes to philosophical conversations. He inspects every word and wants to be clear on what you are saying, how you define that word, and the logical implications of it.

Some people might experience this and find it difficult to work through. As I learned, you have to be really careful with your word choice because he is not going to give you any free passes. I found this to be super helpful though, as it forced me to be really tight and clear on the point I was trying to make. It forced us to challenge everything we were thinking and saying and that rigor leads to better insights. 

This is another one of those discussions that is hard to summarize in a brief write up, but just to give you a flavor, we talked about what values really mean, if certainty is ever possible, if the "self" actually exists, why we can love a donut and hate a donut at the same time, and plenty more. Maybe the biggest conclusion as we worked through all of this was, if you dig deep enough on any topic, you are just left with unexplainable assumptions that you likely will never fully understand. That is why we ultimately decided to leave his "value" blank, because we can acknowledge we don't know enough about anything to have true conviction on an answer.

Paul stated "Catholicism" as his most important value and to be honest that threw me for a loop at first. It seemed like such a specific thing to pick as a value, that I wondered if he understood the point of my question. His thoughtful approach and explanation quickly allayed those concerns but I then assumed this would be a very closed minded discussion. This might be one of those where it even gets a little combative because the other person is so rooted in their beliefs. I'm not proud of it, but I guess I have a subconscious bias that kicks in when I hear someone say Catholicism is the most important thing in their life. Paul's exact words were that he is "dedicated to living the simplicity and humility of life, gospel and prayer all rooted in the Secular Franciscan Tradition." I hadn't heard of the Secular Franciscan Tradition before but it all sounded very rigid.

But sometimes it is a beautiful thing to be wrong. Paul is definitely a firm believer in the Catholic faith and the gospel does guide his life, but there is very little rigidity to it at all. He believes "faith" is an evolutionary process, ever changing and growing. He believes for you to have true faith it has to be tested and questioned. Most important of all, he believes his duty as a man of faith is to read the gospel and try to understand the underlying essence of what the words are really trying to teach us. In today's world that view is almost radical or blasphemous, but Paul believes God is more than capable (and encouraging) of us taking this approach. 

Once someone gives me permission to question and test their beliefs I believe the concept of this show really shines. The combination of someone who has thoughtful, deep rooted beliefs and an open and curious mind is magical. So Paul and I spent much of this conversation going back forth trying to make sense of Catholicism, humanity, and the world we live in. We discussed the role of authenticity in religious practice, the limits (if any) of God, free will, the purpose of human suffering, and many other really important topics. It will never cease to amaze me how much we can learn when we get out of our own way and have a genuine, open conversation with someone.