Over the last few years, there has been a lot of discussion about narcissism and the destruction it can do: in politics, in organizations, and unfortunately, in churches. Is narcissism self-love or does it disguise something deeper? Why are the qualities of a narcissist often praised in leaders? How can we encourage cultures of humility, vulnerability, and curiosity instead of narcissism? We talk with Chuck DeGroat, author of "When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse"

Chuck DeGroat (LPC, PhD) is professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, and senior fellow at Newbigin House of Studies in San Francisco.

He served as a pastor at churches in Orlando and San Francisco and founded two church-based counseling centers. He is a licensed therapist, spiritual director, and the author of Toughest People to Love and Wholeheartedness.

Find Chuck at ChuckDeGroat.net and social media @ChuckDeGroat

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