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What kind of God is worth trusting when life falls apart? We pull up a chair with Thomas Jay Oord and guest Chris Lilley for a spirited, vulnerable conversation about omnipotence, evil, and why love may be the only measure of divine power that doesn’t betray our moral core. The stakes are high: beliefs about God’s power shape how we face suffering, talk to our kids about hope, and decide whether prayer is protest, surrender, or both. If you haven't heard our first conversation with Tom about God's power, we recommend checking that out first here.

Tom lays out open and relational theism: God moves through time with us, gives and receives, and has a nature of uncontrolling love. From there he challenges three classic readings of omnipotence—doing anything, exerting all power, and unilaterally determining outcomes—arguing they either collapse logically or become morally intolerable in the face of real-world evil. Chris, a former Thomist and Reformed teacher now in the Episcopal ordination process, offers a thoughtful pushback: if omnipotence can be carefully qualified, should we abandon it, or teach it better? His turning point is painfully human: holding his newborn while teaching election and realizing he couldn’t preach a God who ordains every outcome and still call that good.

We wrestle with creation, “almighty” in the liturgy, liberation theology’s demand for a God who not only intends justice but accomplishes it, and a hard question about the afterlife: could you rest eternally with a God who could have stopped your suffering? Tom reframes power as maximal influence—everlasting, universal, persuasive—rather than control. Kyle names the unresolved middle: if God could fix it later, why not now? The conversation doesn’t hand out easy answers; it invites you to weigh goodness against power and decide which vision of God you can actually pray to.

If this episode challenges or helps you, share it with a friend, hit follow, and leave a review so others can find the show.

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Our friend Jeff Cook—writer, podcaster, and Enneagram systems thinker—is back with us to discuss his recent book (volume 1 of a series because of course it is): about the Enneagram. (See our first conversation from S03E26 here.)

Jeff explains how the Enneagram names the “why” beneath our choices, conflicts, faith, and love. Randy shares how the framework has sharpened his self-awareness and softened his edges. And Kyle characteristically pushes back a bit on evidence, parsimony, and the risk of thick theories outrunning data. The result is a lively, generous exploration that treats the Enneagram as a language for motive rather than a box for behavior.

Jeff starts by laying a foundation—head, heart, and body—as an ancient scaffold echoed in philosophy, spirituality, and clinical practice. From there, he maps how core desires show up under stress and security and why the hardest question, “What do you want?”, may be the doorway to identity and change. We pressure-test the model where it matters most: relationships. Randy gets a live read on Eight-with-Six dynamics—strength meeting vigilance, autonomy meeting reassurance—and why "body types" experience control and agency in ways that feel physical, not theoretical. We also tackle the cottage-industry problem, academic standards, and how to treat the Enneagram like a Wittgensteinian ladder: use it when it helps, set it aside when it doesn’t.

If you’ve been burned by rigid labels, you’ll appreciate our insistence on flexibility, nuance, and practical outcomes. If you’re curious about real-life gains, Jeff’s focus on gifts will resonate: name what you uniquely bring—clarity, courage, steadiness, empathy—and aim it outward. Useful, not ultimate. Humble, not hazy.

Enjoy the conversation? Subscribe, share with a friend who loves a good debate, and leave a review on Apple or Spotify.

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Is the drive to be better than others making us worse? We talk with theologian Miroslav Volf about his book The Cost of Ambition and explore why comparison-based striving saturates our schools, churches, workplaces, and politics. Volf separates healthy aspiration from superiority-seeking and makes a compelling case for excellence without domination, rooted in agape, i.e., unconditional love that affirms people beyond performance.

We dig into the Christ hymn of Philippians 2 and why self-emptying is not weakness but a different kind of strength. Volf shows how resurrection and ascension empower humility rather than feed triumphalism and why honoring everyone is both a spiritual discipline and a democratic necessity. From the academy’s “one-up” culture to the marketplace’s imitation traps, he argues that obsessing over competitors blinds us to our unique gifts and corrodes joy. Even stalwart capitalists like Warren Buffett warn against competitor-fixation. Volf adds a deeper moral and theological critique as well, drawing on Paul’s piercing question: What do you have that you did not receive?

We also test his claims against Nietzsche’s will to power, happiness research on social comparison, and the rise of Christian nationalism. Is Christ a moral stranger to our priorities? Volf challenges both sides of the aisle to recover mere humanity—Kierkegaard’s vision of belovedness before achievement—and to practice agape toward others and ourselves. The result is a bracing, hopeful vision: strive for truth, craft, and contribution, not for status; pursue excellence as stewardship, not self-exaltation.

If you’re weary of the status treadmill yet still hungry to do meaningful work, this conversation will give you categories, language, and practices to recalibrate your aims. Listen, reflect, and share with someone who needs a healthier way to win. If the episode resonates, subscribe, leave a review, and let us know your thoughts.

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We talk with political strategist, author, and Lincoln Project member Mike Madrid about data, culture, and why both parties keep getting the Latino vote wrong.

Mike takes us inside the Lincoln Project’s 2020 strategy and the personal costs of resisting Trumpism, then draws a sharp line between principled conservatism and punitive nationalist populism. From energy policy to border security to employee ownership, we explore how Democrats ended up carrying a slate of classically conservative positions and why that still isn’t landing with working class voters. The throughline is practical: housing, wages, and permitting timelines beat slogans every time, especially for a young, US‑born Latino electorate that’s increasingly moderate, less partisan, and focused on near‑term economic mobility.

We also discuss culture and faith, challenging lazy “machismo” tropes with the maternal core of Latin American Catholicism and a track record of electing women. Mike explains how generational change, not country of origin, drives political behavior and why Latino voters split roughly 50–50. That elasticity could be the system’s safety valve, if the parties learn to speak to pocketbook priorities instead of waging endless culture wars.

We also confront the rise in political violence. Mike argues we’re already in a civil conflict—more Troubles than Gettysburg—and that healing will be social before it’s political. The antidote starts local: honest conversations, community action, and leaders calling out extremism in their own ranks. Along the way, we have occasion to toast some tequila and hear about Mike’s storytelling project on the Cuervo–Sauza rivalry, expanding how Latino lives are portrayed beyond tired stereotypes.

If this conversation challenges and energizes you, follow, rate, and share the show with a friend.

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Dawne Moon and Theresa Tobin are back to discuss their book Choosing Love, which represents the culmination of their research over the last several years into the community of conservative LGBTQ+ Christians. This book expands on many of the topics we covered in our first conversation while adding insightful material on the varied ways this community understands their conservative Christian identity, how it intersects with other aspects of their identities, how they understand and practice love, the relationships between love, justice, politics, theology, and activism, and much more.

Some topics we cover in this conversation include:

• The concept of "sacramental shame" which names how LGBTQ+ Christians must perform shame about their identity to be accepted in religious communities
• How straight, cis Christians often fail to understand the weight of asking queer people to be celibate or suppress their sexuality
• The tensions within LGBTQ+ Christian advocacy organizations around intersectionality and strategic approaches
• What it means to be "conservative" in these communities
• Balancing activist ideals with the reality of theological convictions
• The socially constructed nature of Christian ideals about gender and sexuality
• The importance of humility in faith conversations and how it is modeled in this community
• The connection between love and justice in movements for social change and inclusion

Theresa and Dawne have done important and original work that has much to teach both conservative Christians and liberal secularists about this overlooked but important community.

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What happens when political labels lose their meaning? Dr. Laurie Johnson, political philosopher and president of the Maurin Academy, joins us to unpack the tangled roots of America's culture wars and explore pathways toward overcoming our divisions. We discuss her book The Gap in God's Country: A Longer View on Our Culture Wars.

The conversation begins with a clarification of political terminology. Laurie explains how American understandings of "liberal" and "conservative" have drifted far from historical and global meanings, with both Democrats and Republicans representing different flavors of liberalism while "true" conservatism remains rare in American politics. This terminological confusion reflects a deeper problem: an increasingly narrow political imagination that limits our ability to envision alternatives.

In Laurie's view, at the heart of our cultural divisions lies capitalism's continuous transformation of communities and human connections. She describes how economic changes have hollowed out rural areas, separated families, and created profound insecurity. When people feel economically adrift, they become susceptible to scapegoating others rather than recognizing systemic problems. This resentment fuels the political extremism we see today.

We also explore potential remedies. Laurie suggests churches could play a crucial role in rebuilding community if they moved beyond superficial fellowship toward genuine cooperation. By creating structures that provide mutual benefit, such as shared childcare, elder support, or time banks, people might rediscover how community offers security that money can't buy.

Though unflinching in her assessment of our challenges, Laurie maintains a tempered hope. Perhaps only through experiencing genuine hardship will we rediscover the value of community and cooperation. Her work offers an invitation to attempt this rediscovery before crisis forces our hand.

*Note: This episode was recorded before the appalling assassination of Charlie Kirk.

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Ready to transform your relationship with the Bible? Zach Lambert, pastor of Restore Church in Austin and author of Better Ways to Read the Bible, offers a healing pathway for those wounded by scripture in this candid conversation.

Growing up in a Southern Baptist megachurch during the "fundamentalist takeover," Lambert experienced firsthand how the Bible can be weaponized. Disagreeing with the pastor's interpretation is often treated as disagreeing with God. This authoritarian approach created spiritual trauma that eventually led Zach to seek healthier ways of engaging with scripture.

Zach challenges the notion that there's one "plain reading" of the Bible, noting that everyone interprets scripture through various lenses. Some lenses—like literalism, apocalypse, moralism, and hierarchy—often produce harm, while others—focused on Jesus, context, flourishing, and fruitfulness—lead to healing. The key differentiator is the fruit they produce. "We should be asking with any given biblical interpretation: is it producing more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness in me and in the world around me?"

The conversation tackles difficult topics like biblical violence, biblical inerrancy (see our episode on this topic here), the subjugation of women, and LGBTQ+ inclusion, offering fresh perspectives without abandoning the text. Zach suggests we view scripture as John the Baptist pointing to Jesus rather than an end in itself: "Jesus didn't say 'here is the truth, believe it.' He said 'I am the truth, follow me.'" This shift from a text-centered to a person-centered faith can transform our approach to scripture.

Whether you're deconstructing harmful theology, seeking to reintegrate the Bible into your spiritual life, or simply curious about healthier interpretive frameworks, this episode provides thoughtful guidance for transforming scripture from a weapon of harm into a tool of healing.

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What happens to prayer after you rethink religion and spirituality? Does it feel empty, confusing, or even impossible? If so, you're not alone.

In this episode, the three of us discuss our journeys from structured, wordy, and sometimes demonstrative prayer lives to something altogether different. Randy reflects on his charismatic past where intercessory prayer dominated his spiritual practice, Kyle raises philosophical questions about whether prayer "works" in a traditional sense and shares his current discomfort with it, and Elliot shares what about prayer still seems to fit—and what doesn't—through the experience of deconstruction.

We wrestle with the extent to which we should think of prayer as affecting the world, God, or ourselves. We visit the thoughts of some influential thinkers on prayer. And we question the transactional and manipulative views of our old traditions while trying to remain generous with our past selves.

What do we make of Jesus's promises about prayer's power alongside his own unanswered prayer in Gethsemane? What about contemplative alternatives to petitionary prayer, and are they really different from meditation? Can we name the grief that comes with losing certain prayer practices while also discovering new, more life-giving ones?

Wherever you are on prayer these days, we hope this conversation offers companionship for the journey and permission to find your own path forward. Prayer may not be what it once was, and that's okay.

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What happens when a successful religious leader transitions genders and loses everything? Reverend Dr. Paula Stone Williams takes us on her extraordinary journey from privilege to authenticity.

Paula once stood at the pinnacle of evangelical success – CEO of a large nonprofit, television host, magazine editor. But beneath this accomplished exterior lived a truth she'd known since childhood: she was transgender. When she finally answered what she describes as a "calling" toward authenticity (instigated by the TV show Lost, belive it or not!), the cost was staggering. Paula lost her jobs, her pension, and virtually all professional connections overnight, earning less than $6,000 annually for four years after transition.

This conversation reveals Paula's unique perspective as someone who has experienced life on both sides of the gender divide. Her observations about male privilege are particularly illuminating – "I'll not live long enough to lose my white male entitlement. I brought it with me," she notes, while describing the jarring experience of suddenly being dismissed, patronized, and underestimated in professional settings after transition.

Rather than abandoning faith after being rejected by her religious community, Paula describes developing a deeper, more nuanced spirituality. She frames this transformation as moving from a "left-brain heavy faith" focused on doctrine toward one embracing intuition and mystery, leading to a more authentic connection with Jesus's teachings.

Paula brings refreshing nuance to often polarized conversations about transgender issues, distinguishing between different manifestations of gender dysphoria while expressing concerns about some current treatment approaches. For church leaders navigating these complex waters, she offers practical advice from her extensive experience leading religious communities.

Through her book As a Woman, viral TED Talks, and speaking engagements worldwide, Paula now shares the wisdom gained from her journey, through both profound loss and unexpected discovery. We hope this conversation informs and challenges you as much as it did us.

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How did the role of "pastor's wife" replace ordination for women in church history? Is the news that there was women's ordination in church history hitting you unexpectedly right now? It's cool, we get it; take a moment and come back when you're ready.

Historian and actual pastor's wife Beth Allison Barr returns for a potentially revelatory conversation about her latest book, Becoming the Pastor's Wife: How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry. Drawing from extensive research, including archival discoveries and reading 150 pastor's wife books/manuals (yes, that's a real genre), Beth uncovers how the glorification of this role coincided with efforts to restrict women's ordination.

This interview weaves eye-opening historical findings with deeply personal experiences. Beth shares stories of pastors' wives—herself included—being treated as church property, essentially an extension of her husband and his ministry rather than a full person. These aren't isolated incidents; they are systematic experiences faced by countless pastors' wives who are expected to provide unpaid ministerial labor while supporting their husband's careers.

Perhaps most striking is the historical evidence that women served in virtually every ministry role men did for the first thousand years of Christianity—including as deacons, bishops, and preachers. The rise of complementarian theology—spoiler warning if you're not a regular listener of this podcast—is a modern development that deliberately ignores this rich history.

While Beth doesn't shy away from the harm these practices have caused, she leaves us with hope borrowed from Doctor Who's beloved Van Gogh episode: while we can't undo past damage, we can "add to the good pile" by recognizing the truth, stopping harmful practices, and building a better future where women's gifts are fully welcomed in ministry. This is a conversation that will challenge your understanding of church history and inspire you to imagine new possibilities for what the church could be.

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