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This is a conversation we've been avoiding: how are we doing now that Donald Trump is president again? As we had a break between interviews, we decided to try to unpack how we're feeling, what we're doing, what we've learned about ourselves, and what we're worried and hopeful about.

This is an unusually impromptu and unpolished conversation for us. We didn't plan much and the emotions and the thoughts are raw and relatively unprocessed. We hope that resonates, but if it doesn't, we get it. We'd love to hear from you about what we got wrong (or right). We just needed to take a moment to process out loud together and we hope that it helps some of you start to do the same if you're experiencing similar confusion and grief.

Some highlights:

• Randy shares the heartbreaking moment he realized he could no longer honestly tell his daughter she could become anything, revealing how political outcomes can alter our beliefs about what's possible for us.
• Kyle brings some philosophical perspective, arguing that meaningful progress requires examining the origins of our beliefs and taking ownership of our values.
• Elliot considers how to focus on local impact when national politics feels overwhelming.
• Randy raises a question that haunts many of us: why did over 77 million Americans vote for Trump?

We dig into the currents of fear, anger, and disillusionment driving our nation, touching on liberal blind spots, conservative anxieties, and our collective failure to listen across difference. We also consider whether this moment is a temporary setback in history's arc toward justice or something more permanent, and where it leaves our senses of patriotism.

CONTENT NOTE: This episode contains profanity. (How could it not?)

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This is a re-release of an episode from our second season when we spoke with philosopher C Thi Nguyen. We think it bears re-listening in our current moment.

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What happens when we seek simple answers in a complex world? Philosopher C Thi Nguyen takes us into the machinery of belief, understanding, and value formation, exploring how we navigate information landscapes designed to manipulate us.

Thi introduces the concept of "moral outrage porn"—representations that give us the satisfaction of moral righteousness without requiring meaningful action. We discuss conspiracy theories and his notion of "the seduction of clarity"—the powerful feeling we get from explanations that seem to make everything simple. This feeling is particularly dangerous because we're limited beings who need mental shortcuts to navigate the world.

We also tackle echo chambers and why perfectly rational people can end up in them. Thi distinguishes echo chambers (where we systematically distrust outside sources) from filter bubbles (where we simply aren't exposed to contrary views), explaining that people inside echo chambers often follow logical procedures based on who they've decided to trust. This challenges the dismissive assumption that those with radically different beliefs are simply stupid or lazy.

Weaving through discussions of game design, social media metrics, and institutional incentives, Thi reveals how our values are increasingly captured by simplified scoring systems that reshape our priorities according to what can be easily measured. The result? We outsource our complex human values to technologies and institutions that weren't designed to handle them.

Uncomfortable yet?

Content note: this episode contains profanity.

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What happens when the foundation of your identity crumbles beneath you? When the lens through which you understood the world no longer works? Psychologist Dr. Daryl Van Tongeren joins us to explore this profound transition that one-fifth of Americans have experienced—leaving religion behind.

Drawing from eight years of groundbreaking research across multiple countries, Van Tongeren walks us through what he calls "the great disillusionment," which he documents in his book Done: How to Flourish After Leaving Religion. We discover that most people who check "none" on religious surveys were previously religious believers—what he calls the "dones." Their past faith doesn't simply disappear but leaves "religious residue" that continues influencing their thoughts, behaviors, fears, and values long after they've walked away.

This conversation ventures beyond theory into practical wisdom for navigating life's deepest questions. Van Tongeren shares his personal journey through faith crisis after his brother's tragic death and how it shaped his research. We explore why rigid faith systems often collapse under scrutiny while flexible faith proves more resilient, how former fundamentalists frequently jump into new ideological extremes, and why developing "existential distress tolerance" might be the most crucial skill for our anxious age.

Whether you're questioning faith, have left religion behind, or simply want to understand this massive cultural shift, this episode offers profound insights into finding meaning and purpose at the intersection of psychology, philosophy, and spirituality. Van Tongeren challenges us to courageously engage life's existential realities rather than avoiding them—suggesting this honest confrontation might be the only path to flourishing.

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Tom Oord is back! This time, we're discussing his "main thing": open and relational theology. We explore what it means and its significance in reshaping our understanding of God, love, prayer, and more. Tom answers our questions graciously, and we try to convince Randy that he's wrong.

How is open and relational theology different from classical theism? What does it imply about prayer or freedom or evil and suffering? What does love have to do with it? Is it all just a bit too easy?

As always, Tom is a great sport and a hoot to talk to. We hope you find this conversation valuable.

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This episode explores the complexities of spiritual evolution and its impact on marriages and relationships. Our friend Keri Ladouceur shares her wisdom, and we discuss stories of navigating changing faith and the strain it can place on intimate partnerships. We cover how questioning beliefs impacts relationships, emotional labor amidst change, the stigma and fear surrounding deconstruction, open communication and mutual support, and what hope there is for couples undergoing religious transitions. If this is a place you find yourself, we hope this conversation is beneficial. You are not alone.

Content note: This episode contains profanity.

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Faith deconstruction has become a defining trend in American Christianity, and disagreement persists about what’s driving it. In this episode, we talk with Scot McKnight and Tommy Preson Phillips about their book Invisible Jesus, which considers why so many Christians are critically re-examining their faith. Rather than treating deconstruction as a problem to be solved, they argue that it's a response to real issues—abuse of power, rigid fundamentalism, and a version of Christianity that often looks nothing like Jesus.

Drawing on research from Pew, Gallup, and other studies, McKnight and Phillips unpack what people are actually saying when they step away from the faith communities they grew up in. Some leave Christianity altogether, but most are trying to rebuild something more honest and life-giving. What does it mean to lose faith in the institution but still be drawn to Jesus? And how should the church respond to that tension?

This conversation is for anyone who has wrestled with doubt, walked alongside someone in deconstruction, or wondered what’s next for the church in light of these shifts. Join us as we dig into what’s happening, why it matters, and what a more faithful future might look like.

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This is one of our favorite interviews we've ever done. Nicholas Ma (son of famed cellist Yo-Yo Ma) is a filmmaker best known for producing the 2018 documentary Won't You Be My Neighbor? about Fred Rogers. We speak with him about his latest documentary Leap of Faith, which follows a group of Christian pastors from diverse sociocultural and demographic backgrounds in the Grand Rapids, MI area for a year as they attempt to form community across theological and social dividing lines. The film is a challenging and raw exploration of vulnerability and what it means to practice Christian faith in our political moment. Nicholas himself is a gentle, kind, empathetic, and almost preternaturally wise person who made us a bit more hopeful about our situation. We also get a chance to discuss Mister Rogers and what we can learn from him in this moment.

The video clip of Nicholas playing piano with his dad on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood as a child can be seen in part here.

We had intended to release this episode at Christmas, but life got in the way. Somehow it seems even more fitting to release it today, when we remember Martin Luther King Jr. as we simultaneously inaugurate the most divisive and authoritarian President in our nation's history. We know that conversations like this can sometimes feel trite in contexts like that, like putting a band-aid on a hemorrhage. But Nicholas helps us refocus, to think not about what's insurmountable, but about what is manageable in our particular context. To look, as Fred said, for the helpers, and to ask again what it means to love our neighbor.

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This is a re-release of an episode from our first season: our first conversation with Kristin Kobes Du Mez, which happened to fall just after January 6, 2021. It seems fitting to revisit it now.

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In this episode, we chat with Kristin Kobes Du Mez about her book that's been making waves and is brilliantly titled Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation.  This book is probably our favorite of 2020 and is a must-read. During the course of this interview, we chat about everything from toxic masculinity and power hungry religious leaders to Amy Grant and Tiffany. Seriously.

Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.

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Brian Zahnd is back with us to discuss his favorite novel, Fyodor Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. Brian is starting a public online course going through the book, which is notoriously philosophically and theologically rich, so we thought it would be fun to have him on to discuss its major themes and why it has been so influential in his life. We cover Dostoevsky's famously powerful presentation of the problem of suffering, the implications for theodicy, how Jesus features in the book, Dostoevsky's personal history, his influence as an author and psychologist, and more.

There's still time to join Brian's 10-week study of the book, which begins in January. Get tickets (donation of any amount) here.

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Jonathan Merritt joins us to discuss his children's book My Guncle and Me. We also discuss what it was like to grow up with a dad who was the president of the SBC, his experience being involuntarily outed, and how to maintain relationships across serious ideological and personal divides.

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Want to support us?

The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.

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Cheers!