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We continue our conversation with pastor and author Matt Erickson of Eastbrook Church in Milwaukee. The job of many pastors feels like that of a CEO, with a focus on leadership strategy and the "three Bs": buildings, budgets, and butts in seats. This conversation offers a slower, deeper, and more hopeful way to think about church health, discipleship, and long-term spiritual formation.

We dig into the sequoia metaphor: doing work you may never see mature, trusting God with fruit you can’t control, and learning to “know the soil” of a local congregation. That leads into the daily practices that make this possible, from deep roots in a pastor’s own life with God to the courage to let certain ministries die and become compost for what comes next. Then we take a hard turn into prayer, including Simone Weil’s claim that “unmixed attention is prayer,” and why contemplative attention can be a distinctly Christian practice rather than mere mindfulness.

From there, Matt helps us frame pastoral work inside Charles Taylor’s “secular age,” where belief is an option and we all live under cross-pressure from competing ideas and value sets within a larger secular frame. We talk about the constant temptation to become a religious salesperson in a spiritual marketplace and why “bearing witness” could be a better model. We also wrestle with orthodoxy, the role of the creeds as family story, and the difference between right belief and lived faithfulness. Finally, we go straight at the question many pastors dread: how to pastor through Trumpism, political idolatry, and public Christian compromises, with the Black church and voices like Howard Thurman and Bonhoeffer shaping the horizon.

Catch Part 1 of this conversation here.

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