A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar

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Tom Oord is back! This time, we're discussing his "main thing": open and relational theology. We explore what it means and its significance in reshaping our understanding of God, love, prayer, and more. Tom answers our questions graciously, and we try to convince Randy that he's wrong.

How is open and relational theology different from classical theism? What does it imply about prayer or freedom or evil and suffering? What does love have to do with it? Is it all just a bit too easy?

As always, Tom is a great sport and a hoot to talk to. We hope you find this conversation valuable.

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This episode explores the complexities of spiritual evolution and its impact on marriages and relationships. Our friend Keri Ladouceur shares her wisdom, and we discuss stories of navigating changing faith and the strain it can place on intimate partnerships. We cover how questioning beliefs impacts relationships, emotional labor amidst change, the stigma and fear surrounding deconstruction, open communication and mutual support, and what hope there is for couples undergoing religious transitions. If this is a place you find yourself, we hope this conversation is beneficial. You are not alone.

Content note: This episode contains profanity.

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Faith deconstruction has become a defining trend in American Christianity, and disagreement persists about what’s driving it. In this episode, we talk with Scot McKnight and Tommy Preson Phillips about their book Invisible Jesus, which considers why so many Christians are critically re-examining their faith. Rather than treating deconstruction as a problem to be solved, they argue that it's a response to real issues—abuse of power, rigid fundamentalism, and a version of Christianity that often looks nothing like Jesus.

Drawing on research from Pew, Gallup, and other studies, McKnight and Phillips unpack what people are actually saying when they step away from the faith communities they grew up in. Some leave Christianity altogether, but most are trying to rebuild something more honest and life-giving. What does it mean to lose faith in the institution but still be drawn to Jesus? And how should the church respond to that tension?

This conversation is for anyone who has wrestled with doubt, walked alongside someone in deconstruction, or wondered what’s next for the church in light of these shifts. Join us as we dig into what’s happening, why it matters, and what a more faithful future might look like.

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This is one of our favorite interviews we've ever done. Nicholas Ma (son of famed cellist Yo-Yo Ma) is a filmmaker best known for producing the 2018 documentary Won't You Be My Neighbor? about Fred Rogers. We speak with him about his latest documentary Leap of Faith, which follows a group of Christian pastors from diverse sociocultural and demographic backgrounds in the Grand Rapids, MI area for a year as they attempt to form community across theological and social dividing lines. The film is a challenging and raw exploration of vulnerability and what it means to practice Christian faith in our political moment. Nicholas himself is a gentle, kind, empathetic, and almost preternaturally wise person who made us a bit more hopeful about our situation. We also get a chance to discuss Mister Rogers and what we can learn from him in this moment.

The video clip of Nicholas playing piano with his dad on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood as a child can be seen in part here.

We had intended to release this episode at Christmas, but life got in the way. Somehow it seems even more fitting to release it today, when we remember Martin Luther King Jr. as we simultaneously inaugurate the most divisive and authoritarian President in our nation's history. We know that conversations like this can sometimes feel trite in contexts like that, like putting a band-aid on a hemorrhage. But Nicholas helps us refocus, to think not about what's insurmountable, but about what is manageable in our particular context. To look, as Fred said, for the helpers, and to ask again what it means to love our neighbor.

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This is a re-release of an episode from our first season: our first conversation with Kristin Kobes Du Mez, which happened to fall just after January 6, 2021. It seems fitting to revisit it now.

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In this episode, we chat with Kristin Kobes Du Mez about her book that's been making waves and is brilliantly titled Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation.  This book is probably our favorite of 2020 and is a must-read. During the course of this interview, we chat about everything from toxic masculinity and power hungry religious leaders to Amy Grant and Tiffany. Seriously.

Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.

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Brian Zahnd is back with us to discuss his favorite novel, Fyodor Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. Brian is starting a public online course going through the book, which is notoriously philosophically and theologically rich, so we thought it would be fun to have him on to discuss its major themes and why it has been so influential in his life. We cover Dostoevsky's famously powerful presentation of the problem of suffering, the implications for theodicy, how Jesus features in the book, Dostoevsky's personal history, his influence as an author and psychologist, and more.

There's still time to join Brian's 10-week study of the book, which begins in January. Get tickets (donation of any amount) here.

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Jonathan Merritt joins us to discuss his children's book My Guncle and Me. We also discuss what it was like to grow up with a dad who was the president of the SBC, his experience being involuntarily outed, and how to maintain relationships across serious ideological and personal divides.

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This episode was recorded live at Theology Beer Camp 2024. We sat down with Brian McLaren and Tim Whitaker (from The New Evangelicals podcast) to discuss Brian's history in the emerging church movement, the current progressive religious movement (of which we're a part), the Christian nationalist backlash, and our political moment. For those of us who think of ourselves as progressive Christians, it's tempting to feel like we're carving a brand new space out of the ashes of evangelicalism, but of course there's a long history to what's happening now. Brian helps us think about where we've been, where we are now, and what might come next. This conversation was very impromptu, off the cuff, and occasionally raw. There are warnings but also hope and (from Brian at least) wisdom. We hope it's meaningful to you.

The books mentioned in this episode are:

• Prequel by Rachel Maddow
• A Fever in the Heartland by Timothy Egan

Check out the (unedited) video of this conversation here.

Content note: This episode contains profanity.

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Want to support us?

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Cheers!

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Jeff Cook is back with us to dive deeper into our conversation from a while back about the soul and why Kyle is a materialist (and why Randy thinks he's silly for it). We discuss the difference between the claim that God is non-physical and the claim that humans are, Jeff's reservations about materialism, the mystery of the Incarnation and Christ's dual natures, reduction in science, and a lot more.

If you'd like to ask a question about a recent episode to be featured on one of these bonus segments, email us at [email protected].

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After more than three years, Kristin Kobes Du Mez is back on the show to discuss her new short film For Our Daughters, which examines the connection between the culture of submission and sexual abuse within the evangelical church and the Christian nationalist effort to influence the 2024 presidential election. It tells harrowing stories of survival and coverup and puts a spotlight on the theological and ecclesial structures that facilitate abuse and wield enormous power in our society. Randy and Elliot chat with Kristin about the film, as well as what she's been up to with the explosion of Jesus and John Wayne since our last conversation.

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Cheers!