What incentives do armed actors have to operate in subterranean environments? What are some of the unique challenges that underground spaces pose to military forces? And why is underground warfare occurring increasingly frequently? To explore those questions and other features of conflict in the exceptional terrain of the subterranean, this episode features a conversation with Dr. Daphne Richemond-Barak, an assistant professor at the Lauder School of Government, Diplomacy, and Strategy, head of the international law desk of the International Institute for Counter-Terrorism at IDC Herzliya, and author of the book Underground Warfare.

When War Goes Underground

As the world is increasingly urbanized, military forces must be prepared for cities to become battlefields. The Urban Warfare Project Podcast, from the Modern War Institute at West Point, features insightful discussions with scholars and practitioners as it sets out to explore the unique characteristics of urban warfare.

News

Government

John Spencer is joined on this episode by retired General David Petraeus. He served thirty-seven years in the US Army, culminating his career with six consecutive commands as a general officer, including five in combat. He served as the commander of coalition forces in Iraq during the troop surge there, commander of US Central Command, and commander of coalition forces in Afghanistan. Following his retirement from the Army, he served as director of the Central Intelligence Agency. He earned a PhD from Princeton University and is the coauthor of the recent book Conflict: The Evolution of Warfare from 1945 to Ukraine. He brings both scholarship and deep, firsthand experience fighting enemy forces in urban ares to this conversation.

Defeating the Urban Enemy, with General David Petraeus

In this episode, guest host Jayson Geroux is joined by retired Lieutenant Colonel Louis DiMarco, a professor of military history at the United States Army Command and General Staff College. Dr. DiMarco is the author of the influential 2012 book Concrete Hell: Urban Warfare from Stalingrad to Iraq. In the conversation, he discusses how he became interested in urban warfare and describes the urban warfare history course he developed and continues to teach at the Command and General Staff College. He also highlights a number of historical urban battles while also noting the themes that have consistently featured throughout urban operations history.

Concrete Hell

Many will be familiar with the major facts about the October 7 Hamas terrorist attacks against Israel. Over 1,200 people were killed and another 240 kidnapped and brought to Gaza as hostages. But what do we know about the specific sites—more than twenty in total—that the attackers selected as targets? What about the specific tactics they employed? And since many of the sites targeted were in built-up, inhabited areas, what lessons on urban warfare can be extracted from the attacks? John Spencer explores those questions and more, based on firsthand research, in this episode.

Studying the October 7 Terrorist Attacks

In this episode, John Spencer is joined by retired Colonel Kevin Felix. He served 30 years in the US Army, with his last assignment as chief of Army Capabilities and Integration Center's Future Warfare Division. He describes the Army’s different approaches for thinking about and studying the future of warfare, including major efforts beginning in 2014 to focus on global urbanization, including by incorporating it into wargames like Unified Quest. The discussion highlights the complex challenge of predicting the future, developing warfighting concepts informed by those predictions, and ultimately making decisions about what the future of warfare will require of the US Army.

Forecasting the Future of Urban Warfare

During the 2022 Battle of Mariupol, approximately three thousand Ukrainian defenders, vastly outnumbered by Russian forces, were quickly surrounded in a steel plant with their backs to the Sea of Azov and little hope of anyone coming to their rescue. Running out of ammunition, short of medicine, and with casualties mounting, they were in desperate need of resupply. A bold plan was conceived, which would involve risky helicopter flights to the besieged defenders. In this episode, John Spencer is joined by retired Colonel Liam Collins. Together, they discuss their research in Ukraine and what they learned about these resupply operations during the battle.

When War Goes Underground

Download our free app to listen on your phone