Whiteness at Work

In Part Two of my conversation with Dr Kathy Obear, we move from understanding whiteness to exploring what it actually means to take responsibility, build accountability and interrupt racism in practice.

We begin with white accountability spaces. What happens when white people are given somewhere to examine racism honestly? How do we work with shame, defensiveness, tears and discomfort without allowing those responses to recentre whiteness? And what happens when people leave those spaces and return to organisations where speaking up may carry consequences?

Kathy draws on decades of facilitation and organisational change work to explore how white people can develop the awareness, skills and relationships needed to recognise racism, interrupt harmful dynamics and act differently.

Importantly, this isn't about becoming the "best white person in the room". Kathy challenges the idea of the facilitator as the expert who has somehow solved racism. Instead, we discuss the power of honesty, vulnerability, community and being willing to recognise the racism we have been socialised into.

Together, we discuss:

• White accountability groups and what makes them effective
• Shame, defensiveness and white women's tears
• Why accountability doesn't have to mean humiliation
• Moving from individual understandings of racism towards group and organisational analysis
• How white people can recognise their own participation in racist dynamics
• Facilitation without positioning ourselves as the expert
• Building community as part of anti-racist practice
• Speaking up when there may be organisational consequences
• Working differently in all-white and racially mixed spaces
• Avoiding reliance on people of colour to educate white people about racism
• Triggers, hot buttons and emotional responses
• Entitlement, power and unmet needs
• Practical ways of interrupting inequitable dynamics
• Repairing harm and taking responsibility for impact
• Why organising, connection and truth-telling matter

Kathy also talks candidly about her own mistakes and learning, including moments when entitlement, competitiveness and racism have shown up in her own thinking.

We explore how seemingly small interventions can begin to interrupt organisational patterns: asking a question, slowing a meeting down, noticing whose voice has been missed, examining who benefits from a decision, or simply being willing to name what others would prefer to leave unspoken.

And we finish with the question I ask every guest:

What does whiteness hate?

For Kathy, the answer takes us towards connection, community, truth-telling, organising, speaking up and the willingness to hold a mirror to what is actually happening.

In Part One of my conversation with Dr Kathy Obear, I explore whiteness, white accountability and the everyday behaviours through which racism and inequity can continue to operate within our organisations.

Kathy is an author, facilitator, coach and founder of the Center for Transformation and Change. With more than 40 years of experience in conflict resolution, change management and creating inclusive cultures, her work has been hugely influential in my own learning and practice.

In this episode, Kathy reflects candidly on her own journey as a white woman working in equity and social justice, including the moments when others challenged her to recognise where her own understanding of racism was limited.

Together, we discuss:

• what whiteness is and why it can be so difficult (for white people) to see and define

• how whiteness operates within organisational cultures

• Kathy's own journey towards understanding race and racism

• white accountability and the importance of examining our own behaviours

• power hoarding, hierarchy and expectations within majority white organisations

• the everyday behaviours and microaggressions that can reproduce racism

• why good intentions do not necessarily prevent racial harm

• how white people can recognise the ways we participate in inequitable systems

• moving beyond shame towards responsibility and action

• why practical tools can help make whiteness more visible

• finding our own ways to contribute to dismantling inequitable systems

Kathy also talks about the importance of mapping behaviours that can otherwise appear isolated or insignificant. Interrupting, talking over people, questioning competence, demanding additional evidence and deciding whose ideas are taken seriously can all form part of wider organisational patterns.

By making these patterns visible, we can begin to recognise whiteness not simply as an abstract concept, but as something reproduced through everyday expectations, relationships, policies and practices.

We finish Part One with a deceptively difficult question: how do we actually define whiteness?

About my guest

Dr Kathy Obear is an author, facilitator, coach and organisational change specialist with more than 40 years of experience. She is the founder of the Center for Transformation and Change and co-founder of the Social Justice Training Institute.

Her books include Turn the Tide, In It for the Long Haul, But I'm Not Racist! and Leading White Accountability Spaces.

Kathy's work focuses particularly on helping people recognise inequitable dynamics, develop practical skills to interrupt them and create more inclusive and equitable organisations.

Coming next...

In Part Two, Kathy and I move deeper into white accountability groups, what happens when white people experience discomfort, shame or defensiveness in conversations about racism, and how we can create spaces that move people towards greater accountability and action.

In the final part of my conversation with Professor David Gillborn, we explore some of the most influential ideas within Critical Race Theory and why they remain so relevant to understanding racism today.

Beginning with Derrick Bell's theory of interest convergence, David explains why progress towards racial equity is often temporary, how moments of change emerge, and why systems of power frequently adapt to preserve themselves.

We also discuss why Critical Race Theory has become so politically contested, what researchers often misunderstand about it, and why returning to the original scholars remains essential.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Derrick Bell's theory of interest convergence

• convergence, divergence and reclamation

• why anti-racist progress is often temporary

• how racism adapts to protect existing systems of power

• why Critical Race Theory is so frequently misunderstood

• the importance of reading the original CRT scholars

• storytelling, counter-stories and race scholarship

• conducting research that begins with the permanence of racism

• what researchers can learn from Critical Race Theory

• what whiteness fears, resists and ultimately seeks to protect

Throughout our conversation, David reflects on more than three decades of research, sharing practical advice for researchers, educators and leadership practitioners working to challenge institutional racism. He also offers a hopeful reminder that moments of change do happen, but only when people are prepared to recognise them and act.

This episode brings our three-part conversation to a close and is essential listening for researchers, teachers, school leaders, policymakers, leadership practitioners and anyone seeking a deeper understanding of Critical Race Theory, education and racial justice.

About my guest

Professor David Gillborn is Professor of Critical Race Studies and Founding Director of the Centre for Research in Race and Education at the University of Birmingham. He is the former Editor-in-Chief of Race Ethnicity and Education and author of numerous influential books, including White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory.

David's profile – University of Birmingham
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/staff/profiles/education/gillborn-david

ResearchGate – Free access to many of David's publications
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Gillborn/publications

Centre for Research in Race and Education (CRRE)
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/centres-institutes/research-in-race-and-education

Race Ethnicity and Education
An international peer-reviewed journal exploring race, racism and education.
https://www.tandfonline.com/journals/cree20

Taylor, E., Gillborn, D. & Ladson-Billings, G. (Eds.) (2023). Foundations of Critical Race Theory in Education (3rd ed.). Routledge.

Parker, L. & Gillborn, D. (Eds.) (2020). Critical Race Theory in Education. Routledge.

Gillborn, D. (1995). Racism and Antiracism in Real Schools: Theory, Policy, Practice. Open University Press.

Gillborn, D. & Youdell, D. (2000). Rationing Education: Policy, Practice, Reform and Equity. Open University Press.

Gillborn, D. (2008). Racism and Education: Coincidence or Conspiracy? Routledge.

Rollock, N., Gillborn, D., Vincent, C. & Ball, S.J. (2015). The Colour of Class: The Educational Strategies of the Black Middle Classes. Routledge.

Gillborn, D. (2024). White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory. Routledge.

Thank you for joining me for this special three-part conversation. If you've found these discussions valuable, I'd love you to subscribe to the Whiteness at Work podcast, leave a review, and share this series with colleagues, researchers, educators and leaders committed to creating more equitable organisations.

Further Reading & ResourcesCritical Race Theory CollectionsSelected Publications by Professor David Gillborn

In Part Two of my conversation with Professor David Gillborn, we explore one of the most enduring and politically influential narratives in education today: the idea that white working-class children have become the forgotten victims of race equality.

Drawing on decades of research and evidence from his latest book, White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory, David unpacks how this narrative developed, why it continues to dominate public debate, and who ultimately benefits from it.

Together, we examine how conversations about race are often reframed to shut down anti-racist work, despite there being no evidence that improving racial equity comes at the expense of white children living in poverty.

In this episode, we discuss:

• the myth of white working-class victimhood

• why Free School Meals are an unreliable measure of social class

• poverty, race and educational inequality

• how political narratives shape public understanding of education

• the relationship between racism, education policy and the media

• why anti-racist work benefits all children

• institutional racism and policy-making

• how racism becomes embedded within educational systems

• what schools can do to challenge structural inequity

• the evidence that continues to be ignored in public debate

Throughout our conversation, David explains why racism should not be understood as separate from wider questions of poverty and inequality, but why neither should discussions of poverty be used to silence conversations about race.

This episode is essential listening for teachers, school leaders, trust leaders, governors, policymakers, researchers, teacher educators and anyone interested in education, social justice and racial equity.

About my guest

Professor David Gillborn is Professor of Critical Race Studies and Founding Director of the Centre for Research in Race and Education at the University of Birmingham. He is the former Editor-in-Chief of Race Ethnicity and Education and author of numerous influential books, including White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory.

David's profile – University of Birmingham
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/staff/profiles/education/gillborn-david

ResearchGate – Free access to many of David's publications
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Gillborn/publications

Centre for Research in Race and Education (CRRE)
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/centres-institutes/research-in-race-and-education

Race Ethnicity and Education
An international peer-reviewed journal exploring race, racism and education.
https://www.tandfonline.com/journals/cree20

Taylor, E., Gillborn, D. & Ladson-Billings, G. (Eds.) (2023). Foundations of Critical Race Theory in Education (3rd ed.). Routledge.

Parker, L. & Gillborn, D. (Eds.) (2020). Critical Race Theory in Education. Routledge.

Gillborn, D. (1995). Racism and Antiracism in Real Schools: Theory, Policy, Practice. Open University Press.

Gillborn, D. & Youdell, D. (2000). Rationing Education: Policy, Practice, Reform and Equity. Open University Press.

Gillborn, D. (2008). Racism and Education: Coincidence or Conspiracy? Routledge.

Rollock, N., Gillborn, D., Vincent, C. & Ball, S.J. (2015). The Colour of Class: The Educational Strategies of the Black Middle Classes. Routledge.

Gillborn, D. (2024). White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory. Routledge.

Coming next...

In the final part of our conversation, we explore Critical Race Theory, Derrick Bell's theory of interest convergence, and why understanding how racism adapts is essential for anyone committed to long-term anti-racist change.

Further Reading & ResourcesCritical Race Theory CollectionsSelected Publications by Professor David Gillborn

In Part One of this special three-part conversation, I sit down with Professor David Gillborn, one of the UK's leading Critical Race Theory scholars and a lifelong researcher of racism in education.

We begin by exploring one of the most fundamental questions in race scholarship: what is whiteness?

David explains why he increasingly prefers the term white racism over whiteness, arguing that the language we use matters because terms are continually reshaped, politicised and, at times, stripped of their original meaning.

Drawing on his own working-class upbringing, his early experiences in education, and decades of research, David reflects on how class, race and institutional power intersect, and how those experiences shaped his career as a sociologist and race scholar.

Together, we discuss:

• Why David prefers the term white racism rather than whiteness

• How race and class shaped his own educational journey

• The influence of Professor Michael Apple on his thinking

• Why language matters in anti-racist work

• The relationship between Critical Race Theory and education

• The importance of remaining intellectually humble

• How White Lies came to be written

• Why David uses timelines to expose patterns of institutional racism

This episode lays the foundations for the rest of our conversation and explores why understanding the systems that sustain white racism remains essential for anyone interested in education, leadership and organisational change.

About my guest

Professor David Gillborn is Professor of Critical Race Studies and Founding Director of the Centre for Research in Race and Education at the University of Birmingham. He is the former Editor-in-Chief of Race Ethnicity and Education and author of numerous influential books, including White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory.

David's profile – University of Birmingham
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/staff/profiles/education/gillborn-david

ResearchGate – Free access to many of David's publications
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Gillborn/publications

Centre for Research in Race and Education (CRRE)
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/centres-institutes/research-in-race-and-education

Race Ethnicity and Education
An international peer-reviewed journal exploring race, racism and education.
https://www.tandfonline.com/journals/cree20

Taylor, E., Gillborn, D. & Ladson-Billings, G. (Eds.) (2023). Foundations of Critical Race Theory in Education (3rd ed.). Routledge.

Parker, L. & Gillborn, D. (Eds.) (2020). Critical Race Theory in Education. Routledge.

Gillborn, D. (1995). Racism and Antiracism in Real Schools: Theory, Policy, Practice. Open University Press.

Gillborn, D. & Youdell, D. (2000). Rationing Education: Policy, Practice, Reform and Equity. Open University Press.

Gillborn, D. (2008). Racism and Education: Coincidence or Conspiracy? Routledge.

Rollock, N., Gillborn, D., Vincent, C. & Ball, S.J. (2015). The Colour of Class: The Educational Strategies of the Black Middle Classes. Routledge.

Gillborn, D. (2024). White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory. Routledge.

Coming next...

In Part Two, we explore the myth of white working-class victimhood, how political narratives around race are constructed, and why misinformation continues to shape debates about education and inequality.

Further Reading & ResourcesCritical Race Theory CollectionsSelected Publications by Professor David Gillborn

In this episode of the Whiteness at Work podcast, I speak with executive leader, strategist, coach and author Angie Browne about whiteness, leadership, equity, and what becomes possible when we stop allowing whiteness to define the limits of our imagination.

Drawing on decades of experience working internationally across education, organisational strategy and leadership, Angie explores whiteness as a manufactured system of power that disconnects people from their humanity while shaping institutions, policies and organisational cultures.

Rather than centring whiteness as the destination of our work, Angie invites us to consider what happens when we turn our attention towards flourishing, sovereignty, community, ecology and new ways of leading.

Together, we discuss:

• whiteness as a manufactured system of privilege

• leadership beyond diversity, equity and inclusion

• creating organisations where people genuinely flourish

• international perspectives on race and whiteness

• British international schools and colonial legacies

• equity, sovereignty and organisational culture

• abolitionist thinking and systems change

• why anti-racist work must move beyond reaction

• ecologies of thriving and ethical leadership

• why disinterest may be one of the greatest challenges to whiteness

Throughout our conversation, we explore how leadership can move beyond simply responding to injustice towards intentionally creating cultures where people experience belonging, humanity and possibility.

This episode will resonate with school leaders, executive leaders, coaches, researchers, policymakers, organisational development practitioners, and anyone interested in leadership, equity, systems change and racial justice.

References

Browne, A. (2026) Field Notes on Equity. Substack.

Browne, A. (2020) Lighting the Way: The Case for Ethical Leadership in Schools. Bloomsbury.

Browne, A. (2026) Nothing Without Us podcast.

Website: https://www.beingluminary.co.uk/

In this episode of the Whiteness at Work podcast, I speak with coach, supervisor, researcher and writer Fenella Trevillion about whiteness, coaching, race, reflexivity, and the emotional and embodied realities of anti-racist practice.

Fenella reflects on her experiences growing up in apartheid South Africa, her work within health and mental health services, and how witnessing racism across institutions shaped her understanding of whiteness and power.

Drawing from her paper Disrupting My Whiteness: Towards Inhabiting Self-Enquiry into Race and Whiteness, we explore what it means for white practitioners to engage critically with their own racism, discomfort, fragility, and positionality within coaching and leadership spaces.

Together, we discuss:

• whiteness as a system of power and normalisation

• embodiment, discomfort, and visceral reactions to racism

• white fragility and white saviourism

• anti-racist coaching and supervision

• reflexivity, autoethnography, and self-enquiry

• race and power in coaching relationships

• collective spaces, solidarity, and learning communities

• institutional racism and the legacy of the New Cross Fire

• whiteness, ritual, politeness, and silence

• queerness, othering, and identity

We also discuss the tensions of disrupting whiteness in majority white spaces, the emotional labour involved in anti-racist work, and the importance of learning to stay present rather than retreating into defensiveness or performance.

This conversation will resonate with coaches, educators, therapists, leadership practitioners, researchers, supervisors, anti-racist practitioners, and anyone interested in race, power, identity, and organisational culture.

References:

Trevillion, F. (2025). Disrupting my whiteness: Towards inhabiting self-enquiry into race and whiteness.

Trevillion, F. (2021). “Take a look in the mirror.” Coaching at Work.

Trevillion, F. “White coaches: A clarion call for white coaches to awake to our indifference about Black Lives Matter.” Coaching at Work.

In this episode of the Whiteness at Work podcast, I speak with researcher and Leverhulme Early Career Fellow Dr Rhianna Garrett about whiteness, higher education, mixed-race identity, institutional racism, and the systems that continue to shape who belongs within universities and leadership spaces.

Drawing from her widely discussed thesis, The Architecture of Whiteness, Rhianna explores how universities are not neutral spaces, but institutions historically constructed through racialised systems, policies, values, and professional norms that continue to protect white comfort and reproduce inequity.

Together, we discuss:

• what “the architecture of whiteness” means
• whiteness as a system rather than an identity
• racism in higher education and leadership culture
• mixed-race identity and resistance
• safeguarding and racial harm in institutions
• performative EDI and institutional optics
• activism, solidarity, and anti-racist scholarship
• the online backlash Rhianna received after publicly sharing her thesis

We also explore how whiteness operates through policy interpretation, institutional culture, professionalism, invisibility, and organisational behaviour, alongside the emotional and political realities of researching race in public.

This conversation will resonate with educators, researchers, leadership teams, school leaders, unions, students, policymakers, anti-racist practitioners, and anyone interested in race, power, education, and organisational culture.

You can find Dr Rhianna Garrett’s work through Northumbria University, ResearchGate, Google Scholar, and her social platform Rhimixedviews.

References :
Garrett, R. (2025). “I’m not white”: counter-stories from “mixed race” women navigating PhDs. Equality, Diversity and Inclusion: An International Journal, 44(1), 91-105.

Garrett, R. (2025). The de/construction of identity: The complexities of loss and separation for mixed-race Britain. Genealogy, 9(2), 44.

Garrett, R. (2025). Racism shapes careers: career trajectories and imagined futures of racialised minority PhDs in UK higher education. Globalisation, Societies and Education, 23(3), 683-697.

Garrett, R. (2025). The architecture of whiteness. Area, 57(4), e70039.

Description

In this episode of the Whiteness at Work podcast, Dr. Claire Stewart-Hall engages with Professor Denise Miller and Dr. Charmaine Brown to explore the concept of whiteness, its implications in educational settings, and experiences with racism. They discuss the mechanisms to dismantle whiteness, the role of research in advocating for change, and the psychosocial costs of racism faced by staff in educational institutions. The conversation emphasises the importance of awareness, community empowerment, and the need for meaningful research that impacts society beyond academia.

Dr. Claire Stewart-Hall and guests delve into the complexities of studying racism, allyship, and the psychosocial costs associated with these experiences. They discuss the importance of understanding the perspectives of both Black individuals and white allies in academia, the challenges of institutional racism, and the need for a shift in power dynamics to foster genuine change. The conversation highlights the ongoing struggle against institutional racism and the necessity of addressing whiteness in discussions about equity and inclusion.

Keywords

whiteness, racism, privilege, education, institutional racism, equity, diversity, research, community empowerment, activism, racism, allyship, psychosocial costs, institutional racism, whiteness, academia, diversity, equity, inclusion, research

Chapters

00:00 Understanding Whiteness and Its Impact

06:58 Personal Journeys with Whiteness

16:04 Mechanisms to Dismantle Whiteness

21:11 Research as a Tool for Change

32:55 Exploring the Psychosocial Costs of Racism

36:41 The Costs of Allyship and Racism

39:32 Exploring Psychosocial Costs of Racism

43:52 The Role of White Perspectives in Racism

48:59 Shifting the Narrative on Institutional Racism

51:51 Reflections on Change and Progress

01:00:34 Methodological Insights on Whiteness

01:08:08 Understanding Whiteness and Power Dynamics

We discuss the journal papers:

Miller, D., Brown, C. and Essex, R. (2023) ‘The psychosocial costs of racism to White staff members of an ethnically diverse, post-92 university’. London Review of Education, 21 (1), 39. DOI: https://doi.org/10.14324/LRE.21.1.39.

Miller, D., Essex, R. and Brown, C. (2025) ‘“I’m managed by a White man who’s managed by a White man who’s managed by a White woman who’s managed by a White man”: the problem of institutional racism in a UK-based university’. London Review of Education, 23 (1), 8. DOI: https://doi.org/10.14324/LRE.23.1.08.

We also reference the journal papers:

Exum, M.L. (2022).  ‘White students’ perceptions of the costs and consequences of being black’.  Race and Social Problems, : 1–17, Advance online publication. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12552-022-09364-5

Miller, P. (2016).  ‘White sanction’, institutional, group and individual interaction in the promotion and progression of black and minority ethnic academics and teachers in England.  Power and Education 8 (3) : 205–21, DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1757743816672880

Spanierman, L.B; Todd, N.R; Anderson, C.J. (2009).  ‘Psychosocial costs of racism to Whites: Understanding patterns among university students’.  Journal of Counseling Psychology 56 (2) : 239–52, DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/a0015432 [PubMed]

Find out more at: https://equitablecoaching.com/

In this episode, we welcome Dr. Penny Rabiger, researcher, facilitator, connector and anti-racist community resource who is the lead Coach on the Anti-Racist Schools Award at The Centre for Race, Education and Decoloniality Penny is an educationalist who studies structural racism in school contexts. We discuss jewishness, being racialised into whiteness as white people, dreams, school contexts and the formations of whiteness in society.

References

Alexander, C. (2009) Beyond Black, in Back, L. & Solomos, J. (Eds.). (2009). Theoriesof Race and Racism: A Reader (2nd ed.), pp 209 - 225. Abingdon: Routledge.https://doi.org/10.4324/9781003060802

Andrews, K. (2023) The Psychosis of Whiteness: Surviving the Insanity of a Racist World. London: Allen Lane.

https://www.class13.org/

Coard, B. (1971). "Making Black Children Subnormal in Britain." Equity and Excellence in Education, 9(5), 49-52

Cushing, I., & Snell, J. (2023). The (white) ears of Ofsted: A raciolinguistic perspective on the listening practices of the schools inspectorate. Language in society, 52(3), 363-386.

Grant, V. (2025) https://www.integritycoaching.co.uk/blog/building-a-compassionate-school-system/isolation-stress-tears-truth-school-leader/

Ignatiev, N., & Garvey, J. (eds.) (1996) Race Traitor. New York: Routledge.

Okun, T. White Supremacy Culture. Found Online

Lentin, A. (2025) The New Racial Regime: Recalibrations of White Supremacy is out in May 2025 with Pluto Press.

Salisbury, J. (2022). "How, still, is the Black Caribbean child made educationally subnormal in the English school system?" 

Consider this talk on 22 April 2025: https://events.manchester.ac.uk/event/event:g1z0-m8pxip9l-lbq2pr

Penny's website

Equitable Coaching's Monthly White accountability space booking link