By the mid-2010s, Jen Hatmaker had become one of the most important voices in white Evangelical culture. She had multiple best-selling books; she headlined massive women’s retreats; she was an influencer before we really even used that term. But then she broke with Evangelical doctrine when it came to LGBTQ people… and everything fell apart. More accurately, they started to fall apart — because the real life implosion wouldn’t come until 2020, when she woke up to the sound of her husband, a pastor, sending a voice memo to his mistress. Then things really fell apart.

Hatmaker hasn’t spoken publicly about the details of her divorce, but after five years, a lot of therapy, and her five children all entered into adulthood — she’s ready. Her life exploded. But then she was able to rebuild it using her own designs — not the church’s. Today she’s on the pod to answer your complex questions about midlife reinvention: how it happens, all the reasons it can happen, and who gets the “privilege” of pursuing it. I really loved this conversation, and if you like rolling around all the ways we can (and sometimes struggle) to change our lives, you will too.

• Get deep, restful sleep with 25% off sitewide at BirchLiving.com/CULTURE

• Try Beam’s best-selling Dream Powder and get up to 40% off at shopbeam.com/CULTURE, and use code CULTURE at checkout

• Get 35% off your entire order at Lolablankets.com by using code CULTURE at checkout.

• Go to HelloFresh.com/CULTURESTUDY10FM to get 10 free meals, plus a free item in each box for life

• You can buy Awake here!

• Follow Jen Hatmaker on Instagram here:

• Sign up for Jen’s Substack, Notes From The Middle

• The story I wrote in 2016 (the weekend before the election) featuring Jen Hatmaker

• What happened when Hatmaker announced that she was “affirming” of same-sex relationships (also in 2016)

• The big New York Times interview (with David Marchese) that I reference several times

• I reference “the portal” — here’s the Culture Study piece on it

• Running a Small Business — and How to Make It Sustainable & Survivable (with Jen Hewett!)

• All things Love is Blind with Audie Cornish

• Different Modalities of Hanging Out (aka, best ways to hang out with different people) with Mary HK Choi

• Baseball Culture (with Ali Liebegott and Melody as additional co-host!!!)

• The history/utility/culture of OUTDOOR PERFORMANCE GEAR with Avery Trufelman (of Articles of Interest)

• What an actually family-friendly society would look like (with Elliot Haspel)

• An ADULT HOBBIES crossover episode with Forever35!

• Anything you need advice or want musings on for the AAA segment. You can ask about anything, it’s literally the name of the segment!

• As always, you can submit them (and ideas for future eps) here