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This is a conversation with Max Bergmann, the director of the Europe, Russia, and Eurasia Program at the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies and an excellent analyst of transatlantic relations and European security - both of which are undergoing some pretty fundamental shifts. 

We talk about Greenland and why Trump’s attempt to annex it will be remembered as the beginning of a historic rift between Europe and the United States, why do MAGA Republicans seem to have so much vitriol against Europe and insult and berate it at every opportunity they have, about what should be Europe’s takeaway from this whole episode or about if after all this has happened, does NATO now only exist on paper - and if in practice, it isn't already dead.

And about the concrete things that Europe needs to do to get ready to defend itself without the U.S. - and about the historic and completely transformational shift in European security and politics that’s still largely ignored - but that is now already happening.