Maryam Fanni and Sara Kaaman, are two thirds of the design collective MMS, along with Matilda Flodmark, collaborating since 2012 on investigations and writings on visual culture, graphic design, and historiography from feminist perspectives. MMS recently published Natural Enemies of Books: A Messy History of Women in Printing and Typography. In this episode, Jarrett is joined by Maryam and Sara to talk about the book, the ideas behind MMS, and seeking a more expansive view of design history and practice. Links from this episode can be found at scratchingthesurface.fm/159-maryam-fanni-sara-kaaman.