Sam and Annaka Harris speak with Donald Hoffman about his book "The Case Against Reality." They discuss how evolution has failed to select for true perceptions of the world, his "interface theory" of perception, the primacy of math and logic, how space and time cannot be fundamental, the threat of epistemological skepticism, causality as a useful fiction, the hard problem of consciousness, agency, free will, panpsychism, a mathematics of conscious agents, philosophical idealism, death, psychedelics, the relationship between consciousness and mathematics, and many other topics.

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