2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

We originally chose this movie for Father’s Day, but other things came up. This Korean flick involves a father fighting for his daughter’s life as the town where he works as a cop becomes overrun by a strange kind of sickness. Universally regarded as fantastic, we look at it from our own unique perspectives and give you our own take.

The Wailing (2016)

Episode 230, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of two guys and a chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: I chose the movie for this week. We’ve been doing a lot of requests lately and it was coming up around father’s day. And I suggested did this film. This is a 2016 South Korean horror film called the wailing. It came highly recommended by a lot of people.

It has a 99% positive review on rotten tomatoes. It’s directed by now Hong gin. It seemed to have a lot to do with fatherhood and fathers in the story centers around his father, more or less trying to save his daughter. And so I thought it would be inappropriate movie for father’s day and because I’d heard so much good stuff about it online.

Uh, some people saying it was the best movie of 2016, one of the best horror films to come around and decades, I thought we’d needed to watch it and give it a whirl. It’s also available on Amazon prime. So when we’re done talking about it, if it strikes your fancy. Oh, you can watch it as well. What I wasn’t terribly excited about was the two and a half hour running time.

But, uh, everything I had read online said the movie, uh, earns it totally. So, um, we gave it a whirl and, uh, we watched it. So that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. But I had not really heard about this movie until a few days ago when I sought it out and suggested to Craig that we watch it. How about you, Craig?

Craig: Uh, it’s funny. Cause I thought that I hadn’t heard of it either. And then when I started reading about it a little bit, I realized that I had actually, I already seen it. Uh, I saw it last year. About this time I have a cousin in Denver, uh, or actually Colorado brings who is also a big horror fan. And he and I talk about movies quite a bit when we see each other and.

He said that this was what he thought was right. Best horror movies he’d ever seen. And so when I was out there last summer, we sat down to watch it, but we got kind of, it’s a two and a half hour long movie, and we don’t see each other very often. So we found ourselves. Pausing a lot, just kind of talk and we didn’t actually get all the way through it.

And so when I got back home to Missouri, I finished it here. So I had seen it, but I didn’t really remember a whole lot about it, but then going in and watching it again, I remembered it and I remembered what was going on. As far as evaluation goes, you know, where do you stand? I don’t want to show my hands who are really

Todd: well.

Um, This is pretty Korean horror movie. It’s a pretty Korean movie, I think. Uh, it’s pretty bleak. It’s a little, I think at times Lynchian I think it’s very, uh, uh, a little opaque even though. It has a plot that makes sense and is moving forward, it’s happening at its own pace. And it’s very dreamlike pace almost to the movie.

Also very realistic there, long moments of silence. There are shots of beauty, sort of mixed in with shots of ugliness. I just felt for at first that I could really get behind the main character, the guy who’s a policeman. His name is, uh, John goo. Who’s just a small, small, rural village policeman. They don’t seem to have more than a few cops here at their local police station up in the mountains.

And they have this small rural village. And the crux of it is that people, uh, well, he, he goes and he visits a crime scene where, uh, somebody has completely murdered, uh, his family stabbed. Stab the many times, and it’s sitting outside on the porch, almost catatonic and looking horrible with just boils. And the body skin is black and the eyes are Milky.

White looks like a zombie. You know, it evokes that kind of image from a zombie movie, but it’s cuffed. You know, and just sitting there, and this is not the first of these kinds of murders that happen in this town. There are several that go on and they all pretty much followed a similar pattern. And I think that the character of the policeman in this movie was extremely relatable.

He doesn’t swoop in like a man in charge who knows what’s going on and knows what to do. He seems. More or less dumbfounded and distracted by everything that’s happening. And it’s not really until his daughter becomes afflicted with these sores, um, and burn kind of burn like sores that they’ve been noticing on Wolf.

For example, those people who have murdering others and also. A few towns. People seem to be getting those that he kind of kicks into overdrive and really feels the need to figure out what’s going on. Uh, there’s kind of an, an urgency and intensity behind his motivation. Bring in a lot of different characters here to help with the situation.

There’s a lot of religious overtones and clashing of religion, which also I think makes it very Korean. You know, I’ve been to Korea. But a half a dozen times. I’m no expert in Korean culture by far, but I feel like I know a little bit about, you know, the Korean people today, there’s they have a history of multicultural multi-religious belief.

And so for Asia, Korea has a very strong Christian population. As well as these sort of deeper folk religions that have the shamanistic roots. And so you see those two sides too, to the plot and to what’s going on in the movie. So it has these heavy, I think, kind of heavy religious overtones that never really let up.

And so. I really kind of felt like the movie was casting a bit of a spell over me when I was watching it. There are moments in the movie where there’s a ceremony and there’s a ritual. And I find, I found myself kind of getting wrapped up in that, um, when he’s investigating, he’s going out and trying to find people there’s, there’s mystery involved and he’s making choices and making decisions and coming home to his family.

They’re very domestic scenes in here. And then they’re just these scenes of utter violence. Not. We don’t see a lot of violence on screen. There are a couple scenes, but mostly we see the aftermath of it, which makes it less look more horrible than what they could possibly have shown you. I think. And then sprinkled in here are little moments of, of comedy, uh, not really real heavy star comedy, but there are a few moments there that.

Never really break it up. I think it’s just a heavy movie that I felt had me wrapped into the story, had me guessing and wondering how it was going to end. And then with a very bleak ending, I was not surprised. It’s also very typical for Korean horror films and Asian horror films. General don’t always end on a happy note or with a.

Clear resolution. I just kind of left the movie in a daze. I just finished watching it like 10 minutes ago. So it’s kind of got me in a bad mood. Maybe not the best way they come into this conversation. But I mean, I have to be honest, it had a nice effect on me. And, and again, uh, you know, I’ve said this before, maybe as a dad, it, it had a little bit more of an effect on me than it would have years before, but.

Of course, these are themes that anybody can relate to when you have somebody that you love. But yeah, it’s a powerful, powerful ending I thought. Okay. But I don’t think this is a movie, you know, Craig, that you can sit and watch on your computer while you’re doing by other things. Maybe, you know, I don’t know if you’re going to get the full impact, probably like when you had that.

First showing of it with your cousin and you’re constantly pausing. I’d imagine that the second time you watched it, you had a bit of a different experience.

Craig: Yeah. I, I don’t know. I just don’t know what to say about this movie, because if I were to break it down into its component parts, like the cinematography and the acting and, uh, The storytelling.

Uh everything’s right. All of the parts are right. For some reason, the sum of the parts just didn’t work for me. And I don’t know if it’s because it is it’s long and I have a really short attention, attention span, and I am not just generally opposed to long movies. Fine with them. If they hold my attention.

And I’m not saying that the movie didn’t hold my attention, I was interested. I just felt that the story didn’t necessarily warrant two and a half hours. Yeah. For whatever reason that some of its parts just didn’t add up for me. And I’m not sure exactly why that is. I think that part of it, yeah. May just be that this is both.

Literally and figuratively kind of foreign to me. Um, it, it was difficult for me to kind of decide what kind of movie it was. And I wish that wasn’t an issue for me, but I think it maybe kind of was ultimately cause in some ways, uh, it kind of feels like a zombie movie, but then I feel like really it’s more about religion and faith.

And maybe I am just ignorant to some of the cultural things that I would need to know about to fully appreciate it. Um, it’s also a family drama and I think that that was probably the most compelling part for me. And I think that, that if I remember correctly, that was what was so appealing to my cousin.

Was that the horror. Of finding oneself in a position where what’s most precious to you in this case, a child is, is vulnerable and in danger and the father wants so desperately to protect her, but he’s really very helpless in the circumstances that is horrifying. The notion of it is. So I can relate to that on a certain level.

And I appreciate that, but the rest of it just felt a little bit convoluted to me and even on watching it a second time, I, I, I feel like I know what was going on. I feel like I understand it. The puzzle pieces fell in place, but, uh, overall by the end, I was just kind of, nah, I don’t know. I see what you mean when you say that John goo is relatable.

He is because he’s very much in every man. He’s not, you know, some die hard type character. Who’s this tough macho guy on a mission to protect his family. He’s just an very average, really kind of sloppy kind of guy. And he is doing his best, uh, to figure things out for himself in his community. Right. But it becomes of course personal when it starts to affect his own family, it is easy to relate to him, but I kind of found it a little bit difficult to care.

I don’t know. I don’t know, I’m kind of at a loss. Really. I was, I was nervous about that coming in because it’s a two and a half hour movie and I’ve got two full pages of notes, but they’re all plot notes. And I don’t know that it’s really even worth going into all that plot because when it boils right down to it, a lot of things.

Happen, but now only a few things have great consequences. So I don’t know how you want to approach this.

Todd: Yeah, it’s slow. I mean, you’re right. It’s slow because it’s sort of insists on taking you through every moment of this drama. That’s unfolding there aren’t big jumps in time. And also we get a lot of the quiet moments.

Where there’s nothing happening, but the family is still there consoling someone or thinking about things. I think what was interesting to me was the father’s relationship with his daughter. Yeah, it was, it was hard to pin down at first, you know? I mean, you saw that he loved her. You saw that they had a very loving relationship, but I wasn’t sure in the beginning of he’s the kind of guy who is away a lot and doesn’t pay her too much mind.

She had a little bit of. I don’t want to say resentment, but a little bit of antagonism towards him. There’s a stranger in town. I think I need to at least mention a few of these plot points because they kind of wrap up kind of relate. And so there’s potentially this  infection. That’s infecting people and causing this to happen.

Um, one guy, I think it’s his partner. Oh, Seong Bach, uh, is talking about a Japanese stranger who has. Been in town who keeps to himself and has a very small cabin, a little bit up in the woods and how he’s convinced that this guy is somehow behind it. And this part of the movie bothered me a little bit. I don’t know.

I’m sure it was possibly intentional. The director said the director said this wasn’t his intent, but you can’t cast a Japanese character as an outsider in a Korean movie. The people were suspicious about this Japanese character and not conjure up this tension that has always, that has existed for a long time between Japan and South Korea.

Um, we know historically, especially from world war II and the atrocities that were committed there, even though those countries are very much intertwined, they still have a great deal of tension between them and distrust. And so I feel like putting that Japanese character in this movie and he sorta turned basically turns out to be.

A bad guy. I felt like the movie was setting us up. Like a lot of Hollywood movies do where Oh yeah. You think because he’s Japanese and he’s the loner in town. Everybody’s going to suspect him. But later on, we’re going to learn he’s innocent all along. And that he’s been wrongly persecuted and that’s the moral message.

Like, you know, don’t be so xenophobic, but actually their suspicions turn out to be right. And I think part of this tension. Where I was at one side, suspecting this guy and on the other side, blaming myself for suspecting him, but then finding reason to suspect him again. And then by the end of the movie, finding out, yeah, he is actually responsible in large part for what was going on that.

Unsettled me, I guess, you know, we like our moral messages to be crisp and clear, and that really muddied the waters for me. And I think that was probably intentional. It, it, it kept me on my toes because it didn’t follow that Hollywood formula. And I kind of wanted it to, because I wanted to let this guy off the hook, I wanted to believe it was something else.

And then even by the end, you’re not sure. And the final scene of this movie is therefore is so full of tension, I think, because of that. So. Anyway. So they think it might be this guy, who’s an outsider. And, uh, then at the crime scene where the have another of another crime where a woman had actually burned the house down, the police officer Jew, John who runs into a woman who just kind of comes out of the woods and, and she says to him, it is the Japanese stranger.

He’s a gun most. And he’s responsible for this. Then she kind of disappears and he starts having dreams. He has a dream about this stranger running through the woods, devouring, a pig pig with us, just basically bearing his face and eating it like a zombie, and then coming at you and with these glowing, with these, you know, whitish gross red eyes, which is exactly the same as somebody else had said, they had a rumor.

That he was doing this too, right? Was it the girl or was it somebody else? I can’t remember.

Craig: It was just some Hunter in the woods, like he ends and that happened earlier. Like this guy, he owns a, like a pharmacy or he, he sells like, gosh, I don’t know the right word solves and herbal supplements and those types of things, but he was out in, um, This was early in the movie.

He was out in the woods and he likes, shot a deer. But when he threw the deer up over his shoulders, I guess, to carry it home or to his car or whatever, he slipped and he fell and he hit his head and he, he got knocked out. And when he woke up, he saw that same thing. He saw this guy who ends up being this Japanese guy in nothing, but what they call a diaper.

Uh, yeah. Just an odd, an odd undergarment with like panels that hang down the front and the back. And, uh, this, this guy was eating raw much like a zombie, I suppose, or a wild animal, the kill. And a Hunter guy actually had an encounter. Like the, the, the Japanese man is who it ends up being. But like you said, yeah.

Um, in these instances, he’s got like these red, glowing eyes and he kind of walks on all fours, kind of at some points, he had an encounter with them. And then, like you said, John goo has a very similar thing. And you said it was a dream, but that’s very unclear. Cause it doesn’t seem like it is the whole scene plays out out, uh, in the beginning, John goo and his partner.

Are sitting at the crime scene, like guarding the crime scene. And this woman, like you said, this mysterious woman who just remains mysterious throughout, she’s never given a name. She just looks around and they don’t know who she is. She too is a stranger. Are you sure? Because she’s well then I don’t know who the mysterious woman is.

That’s a credited. I assumed that was her in the cast list. One of the principle characters is called the mysterious woman. She doesn’t have a name.

Todd: Oh, well, but you’re right. It makes sense. Then it’s in there as mysterious woman in I you’re right.

Craig: Anyway, um, she is, uh, just acting odd and throwing stones at them and they basically just ignore her. And then John goose sends his partner away to find out something else. And that’s when she, she leads him through the crime scene and tells him this guy is not human.

He’s a ghost. Now, again, this is all stuff that I don’t really understand. Dan I don’t under, I don’t know if this is just lore from the movie or if this is based in Korean tradition, but there’s this, you know, they refer to him as a ghost, but it’s not in the traditional sense that we think of, but they also discuss that.

Like, if it’s a goal, how can he be a tangible. Person that right. You can touch and, and, you know, talk to and, and whatnot. And, and yeah, it’s never really explained it’s more or less just, uh, they say, well, That’s just it, some, some ghosts you can, I don’t know.

Todd: Well, there’s an illusion to, um, I mean the movie starts out with a passage from, I think it’s gone, right.

A biblical passage. Uh, it it’s the scene in the Bible where Jesus reappears to the apostles after he’s resurrected and they are frightened because they think they see a ghost and he holds out his hands to him that appears to, you know, and says here, touch my hands. Would you be able to. To feel a ghost.

So I feel like that is something that’s played with a little bit here as well. I’m not sure what it means, but it seems to be a thematic thread going through the movie.

Craig: Yeah. The point that I was getting at was that when Jingo sees the Japanese man in that state, you know, when he’s at the crime scene, the mysterious woman has disappeared any, he sees him and the guy kind of.

Attacks, I guess kind of, but like you said, it’s, it’s a dream or it seems so because even though everything else has seemed to be playing out in reality, as soon as that guy starts approaching him, he wakes up as though it were a dream. Any we’ve seen that. He’s been, uh, suffering from really violent nightmares even before that, too.

So it’s unclear if that was a dream or if it really happened, I’m ultimately not sure. Okay. But basically what the story boils down to is. This plague of sorts is kind of taking over this small community and people seemingly for no reason are just going mad and killing their entire families. And eventually it spreads to the daughter.

Joan goo puts together that the daughter somehow did have a interaction with this Japanese man. And ever since then, she’s developed that rash and she’s behaving differently. She was kind of. Rambunctious and mischievous before, but also sweet. And they did have some sweet moments together, awkward, maybe, but ultimately sweet.

And after she starts exhibiting signs of this rash, she also starts behaving differently. She lashes out, she swears. She becomes violent. And so he knows something’s going on and he suspects it’s the Japanese man. And so that’s what he pursues and the movie toys with you a little bit. Like they go out to his place in the woods.

He lives deep in the woods and they investigate and they find incriminating. Things, they find two separate kind of shrines. One is set up like a religious shrine, but all of the icons and relics and yeah. All of the imagery and the relics and things appear to be like, Dark beasts and things. Um, and then the other room that’s also lit by candle.

The is, is basically plastered in photographs and it’s photographs of all of the people who I have been infected. Both before and after they were infected. So there’s a clear tie and Django’s partner doesn’t really reveal it until after they leave because they get caught there. The Japanese man catches them there, they leave and the partner shows  a shoe and they believe it’s be the daughter’s shoe.

So they suspect that it’s the Japanese guy, but again, When they encounter the Japanese guy, just in daily life, he normal and not  threatening. Like really. The cops broke into his house and are going through his stuff illegally. And he just kind of idly stands by and doesn’t appear to be very threatening.

And so the movie twice with you, again, like you said, it, the movie is in Korean, of course, but, uh, in the subtitles, they constantly refer to him as a Jap. So I’m assuming that. This is a derogatory way of referring to this guy. So there’s clearly some cultural tension there too. And you wonder if they’re basing it, you know, their fears and their suspicions on those cultural biases or whether the evidence really does yeah.

His point to him being the bad guy. Right. And that kind of the rest of the movie, majority of the movie, just centers around the mystery. And there’s weird things that go on like. The grandmother, the little girl, the daughter’s grandmother calls in this ShawMan and that adds an entirely different dynamic too, because they bring in this guy who believes that the girl is possessed.

That the Japanese man has somehow possessed this girl and they want to perform these rituals to exercise her, I suppose. But that also seems to be when they do that, which by the way, all of those scenes, the ceremonial scenes are very powerful.

Todd: God. Yeah.

Craig: Um, but when they do that, it also seems to cause the daughter excruciating pain to the point where.

I think the parents and we, the viewers fear that if it continues, she’s going to, um, so you don’t know who to trust. You don’t know. Right. And that’s, I guess the filmmaker puts you in the, the position of the data and of the parents. They don’t know who to trust and neither do we. And so that makes it very tense and, and.

Odd.

Todd: Well, and we have additional information in here too. While the shaman, his name is, uh, ill Guang while he is performing this crazy ritual. And it’s, it’s a one it’s actually quite intoxicating to watch. And I read that that was all filmed in one extremely long. Take my God more power to him for that.

It’s really intense, right? Like you said, she is having this pain and these convulsions and it’s getting the parents increasingly anxious. But then we also see in parallel, it seems like this Japanese man is performing a ritual also in his. Little room. And as the ritual goes on, he’s in pain and he is starting to suffer.

And so you’re wondering why is this? Is it because is this a fight? Are these like battling rituals, you know, where one is fighting? The other for this girl, soul is the Japanese made really trying to help the girl, but he’s getting forwarded is the shaman, uh, doing this and it’s hurting the Japanese man.

Because he’s bad because you know, it’s like the Spirit’s leaving her and going into him or, but, but you, you just really, aren’t sure what’s happening here. Uh, neither, like you said, or the parents. And so even though the shaman had told them, you must not interrupt me. They’re caught in this spot where finally the father goes in and interrupts the whole thing.

And so you wonder. Was this smart was this right? Is this going to make things worse? Where does it go from here? And even the parents don’t know. So like you said, I feel like the movie does a really good job of taking you through the journey of the parents. Even when we have additional information, we’re still really no better off than the father is at figuring out what’s going on.

It’s just added mystery.

Craig: And you really sympathize with the father too. I mean, I can’t imagine making. Any other choice, the young actress who plays the daughter does an excellent job of, um, I guess she studied modern dance for months in preparation for these scenes and, um, her body just contorts and really unnatural ways.

And she just appears to be an agony and, you know, ritual, no ritual. I think almost any parent would do anything that they could to relieve. Their child have that kind of pain. Um, so you don’t blame him for stopping the ceremony, but at the same time, I don’t know about you, but I was thinking, well, you just screwed it up.

Like it was, it was right at the end. Like, I feel like all the guy had left to do was to sacrifice this goat. He was getting ready to do it. And then the data interrupts and won’t. Let him finish and, and basically the shaman at that point just kind of gives up and leaves.

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: Or they send them away, I guess.

So then I guess, is it at that point that they decide that they’re going to, I have to go take care of it themselves. At some point, John goo and his, he, he, he puts together a posse basically, and they go back to the Japanese guy’s place.

Todd: Yeah. It seemed like, okay. Now I think that that maybe the Japanese guys ritual was slightly different because what he was doing was cutting away other scenes where it seemed like there was a step, a person in a car and it seemed like what he was doing, doing, or what the shaman was doing or whatever magic was in the air.

Was starting to wake up this dead guy from the car. And so when this posse goes out to get the strain they burst in, they, they asked him what the, they asked the stranger what he did. Oh, no, this was earlier because the stranger had said he’d burned all the photos, uh, that they had found, but yeah, they find him there.

But then this, this guy comes from the woods and attacks them as like a zombie. Right. It’s like a zombie attack. Yeah. And this is where it goes. It’s a little comical because on the one hand, they’re not saying, Hey, it’s a zombie. We got to kill it. Some people are like, no he’s hurt. He needs help. You know, there’s this fight between the group of, are we gonna try to ACE this dude?

Or are we just going to try to restrain him and get some help for him? In the meantime, he’s lashing out at everybody and trying to bite people. And then somebody comes in with a rake and. You know, brings it down on top of his head and yeah. Then the zombie like stops and like slowly turns around. He’s got this rake in his head.

I mean, it gets a little darkly comedic here, like a little three Stooges. So with this sequence, I think a little bit, um, but that anyway gives the stranger time to leave. Uh, and so they finished fighting the zombie and, uh, then they basically, it’s nighttime, I think. And they, uh, start driving back to their village.

It’s dark.

Craig: Well, but he, the stranger, the stranger doesn’t leave. He watches. Uh, covertly. Um, and after they see it, she, and I didn’t even understand what was going on. Yeah. With that whole dead guy in the car. I don’t know who that is. I don’t know what the purpose was for. I don’t know what the purpose was for animating him because like, was he supposed to be kind of a guard dog because John goo had already killed the Japanese guys, actual guard dog.

So was this just kind of like a new guard dog? I don’t know, because. They, they dispatch him. I mean, this guy is, is very tough. You know, he fights like five or six guys all at once and he’s strong and almost invincible, but they eventually take him out. So it’s not like he’s around for very long. He’s really only there for one scene.

And then they see the Japanese guy. And they chase them through the woods and they chase them to a cliff and then they can’t find them well, as it turns out, he has gone over the cliff and it’s just kind of hiding below. So they leave and are driving home. And then we see. The Japanese guy in the woods.

And he sees this mysterious woman that we’ve seen before. Now, I read that they filmed scenes where she chased him through the forest, but they ultimately thought that that didn’t work. The only thing that we see is Joan goo driving home, and he’s got this truck full of guys and the Japanese guy just like falls.

Off a mountain onto their truck and apparently is dead. And then they throw him over the ledge of a cliff,

Todd: right? Yeah. That’s basically it. And I think the implication, because we see that woman again, I’m up in the mountains. I think the implication is that she was. Chasing him there or that she kicked him out into the street or something like that.

She’s, she’s a lingering presence in a lot of these scenes. She’s sometimes in the background, she’s sometimes in and out whether or not the character see them. I got the real strong sense that she was either bad or for good kind of another spirit here who was. Somehow involving herself in these proceedings.

Craig: Right. But then when Joe goo goes home, he goes to the hospital and his daughter has been hospitalized since the failed exorcism, but she’s better. Yeah. So they, they think that they think that she’s okay. That, that this Japanese guy is dead now and she’s okay. And they take her home and everything seems okay for a little while.

Yeah. And then she kind of starts acting weird again. And I don’t remember how it happens. All I remember is eventually the shaman calls

Todd: again. Yeah. The shaman goes to their house for reasons. I’m not exactly sure about. And as he steps out of the car and starts to walk to their house, his nose starts to bleed like insanely and he turns and he looks, and he sees in a little shed just outside there.

The gate of the house is that mysterious woman. And she tells him to get out of here and he just starts. Profusely vomiting, white. Milky fluid and blood and all kinds of stuff. I mean like a Geyser until he goes back to his car and leaves. And then we see that he’s packed up all of his stuff, because I think they’d try to find the Shawmut at some point and they don’t find him, but they see that this place is empty and he’s driving down the road and he’s got all this stuff in the back of his car and he’s been trying to call the parents.

While this girl has been in the hospital, recovering. Finally, he gets a hold of them and he says, look, I had it all wrong. I thought that the man was a demon, but really it’s the woman, she’s the ghost she’s been behind this whole thing. And you need to go home immediately to your daughter.

Craig: Right. He says the old man was trying to

Todd: protect her.

Right. So. That sets up. What I think is a fantastic, um, it was a nail biter for me, the final scene. He goes home. His daughter’s not there. He goes back to the shaman’s place to see if he’s there. That’s when he sees that everything’s been left and then he sees the mysterious woman and she standing just in the shadows.

And she tells him the opposite. She says, I’ve set up crap for the demon at your house. Now you can’t return there until this cock crows three times or else. Your whole family will die. You’ve got to give it time to work. You need to trust me. And at the same time, the shaman calls him back up on the phone and he’s like, is she there?

Are you talking to her? And he’s like, yeah. And he’s like, don’t believe a word. She says, don’t like, don’t let her try to seduce you. You need to go home right now to your daughter. So now we’re again on this guy’s side, we still have no idea. We have no idea what’s going on and we’re just as confused as he is.

And that’s why the scene was so interesting because like the, it grows twice and she’s. Telling him not to go and he’s torn. He thinks he needs to go. He’s about to go. And then he, she grabs his hand and he looks down. And he sees that she is wearing it while he sees first a little bit in the distance that the girls barrette is on the ground where the woman was standing and that he sees that she’s wearing his wife’s sweater.

And that he also, at one point in the past, he remembers she was wearing, um, one of the other victims as jackets. And she sees that he sees this and she says, no, it’s not what you think. And what was going through my mind was this has gotta be one of two things either. She’s, hexing all these people. That’s why she has their stuff.

Like, you know, like the guy had the girl’s shoe or it’s protection. Like it’s, it’s a good hex, you know, like she’s got their stuff as like protective gear that was immediately going through my mind. And he, I think I was too freaked out by that and figured it was not protective and that she was trying to harm them.

So he goes tearing off and she screams after him with tears in her eyes. No, and he goes home and, uh, at there it’s interesting, the little thematic things, and some of this is very cultural at the gate of their house. They have tied up pieces of paper. Over a I’m on a rope that’s kind of over the gate.

This is a very traditional Korean, also Japanese way of like keeping warding off evil spirits, uh, keeping the good spirits in kind of thing. And she’s also hung some, I would call it like some berries. They look like berries, which we had seen in the very beginning of the movie, also stapled to a outside of the first victims home that the cop kind of notices and almost touches, but doesn’t.

And as he passes through that gate, the camera zooms in, on those berries and lets him go off in the distance and we see that they start to shrivel up. So it’s an omen that, Oh God, I bet she was right, right at the same time, this nephew who we’ve never brought up, I think, but it’s this pre it’s it’s his partner’s nephew is a priest or studying to be a priest he’s in the seminary or whatever.

Yeah. And, uh, he was the one brought in to help translate Japanese for this guy. He’s gone off on a fact finding mission of his own because he’s come home and found that his uncle has slaughtered his family and had the same thing happen to him. So he goes off somehow. I’m not sure where he’s near the Japanese guy’s house and then finds a cave.

Is that what it is?

Craig: I’m not sure, but yeah, I mean, Back at the Japanese guy’s place somehow.

Todd: Yeah. Somehow we find a cave and he goes inside and he sees this Japanese man in, surrounding by candles, huddled around a fire or something. And he turns up and looks at him. And this guy is like, basically tell me if you were the devil.

Or not. I need to know and see your true form. And the guy says to him, well, what does it matter? You’ve already said, I’m the devil. There’s nothing I can say or do that’s going to prove otherwise to you. And he says, yes, it is. If you tell me that you’re not the devil and reveal to me your true form, I will come out of here and I will leave you alone.

And this is all juxtaposition with this guy coming back home to find his daughter in the house. And it all kind of happened. Simultaneously. The worst of our fears are realized he opens up the door and goes inside and the kitchen is absolutely a gory mess. And he goes into the pantry and opens it up and finds his wife and his mother-in-law in there pretty much almost dead.

It’s completely slaughtered. And as he’s sitting there, cradling them in his arms, he looks over and sees his daughter standing there with a knife in her hand, then what’s happening in the cave with the Japanese man. The Japanese man says to this guy says, who’s to say, I’m going to let you leave. And I’m like, what do you mean?

He’s like, you have no control over whether you’re going to leave here or not. He does in fact start to show his true form. And I think maybe at least the form that this kid needed to see because he’s Catholic. That was my interpretation of it. Anyway, he ends up transforming into a full on devil. He’s got horns, he’s hairy, he’s got the big long fingernails and everything.

And he starts taking pictures of this guy and you’re like, Oh God, you know, it was him this whole time. Cause he’s taking pictures of this guy. Cause you, like you had said earlier, they had found these before and after pictures of the victims inside his apartment. So it’s so freaking super bleak. This, uh, clearly this kid’s going to die.

Craig: And then also, um, all the while, you know, even. Once Yahoo has gotten home and found his wife and mother or mother-in-law, um, slaughtered. Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, we’re also seeing the ShawMan who I think had said that he was coming there, like he was coming to their house or whatever. We see him. And at some point he.

Goes to put something in the back of his car or take something out of the back of his car and a, a trunk falls out and what falls out of it or all of these pictures, the same types of pictures.

Todd: Yeah. That happens at the very end. But at first he arrives at the house, um, and he goes in and he sees the carnage and he takes pictures.

Of the family and you’re like, Holy crap. So this is the guy taking the after pictures, you know, somehow he’s in on it. And like you said, he goes, and he dumped, I accidentally dumped the trunk out. And those pictures that the Japanese guy had said it had been burnt. He had burned  shrunk. So it’s like these two guys are in cahoots right.

The whole time. Yep. Right. And this woman was. Actually trying to protect the family, just like she said from the very beginning. Right. So, but it ends an absolute tragedy. And the final scene that we get in this movie is the father sitting there like wailing almost in death, I think is the idea is he’s almost dead.

And he’s just very weakly saying, Oh, Honey, I’ll take care of you. Daddy will take care of you. I can always protect you. And I frickin wanted to okay. Tears at this moment. And it did the same damn thing that the other Korean movie that we saw a train to Busan, where at the end is the father’s dying. It shows you this flashback to a super happy memory with his daughter.

Yeah, everything is great. And they’re wonderful and they’re happy and they’re smiling and he loves her and everything’s in slow motion and then fade out to the freaking credits. And I just wanted to kill this movie for playing with my emotions so much. Ah, so no, he couldn’t take care of his daughter. He couldn’t protect her.

Like he thought, uh, he was kind of on the wrong path, the whole, well, he was on the right path, but he allowed himself to be tricked and put on the wrong path. Again, did made the wrong choice. Got home, didn’t save her and now he dies. You know, not the kind of movie I needed to be seeing this week. Let me just put it that way.

Yeah.

Craig: I have to say, you know, those, the last 15, 20 minutes were. We as the viewers are just as confused as John goo is, um, I thought that was really good. And I thought that it was very twisty, um, and really kept me guessing. And I really didn’t know, you know, who to trust. Like my instinct told me to trust the woman.

Um, but I thought that because she seemed rational and calm, um, I thought maybe that that was a red herring. Sorta, I don’t know. Um, and, but then when the twist played out that it was in fact, the Japanese man and then which I had never suspected at all that the shaman was in on it the whole time that caught me completely off guard.

Now there is a hint and I. I have to say that I did notice this, but I didn’t really put two and two together. At one point, the shaman is, is kind of in some traditional robes doing something. And then when he’s done, he changes out of his robes into his street clothes. And when he changed, and this is in front of John goo, um, and when he changes out of his robes, we see that he is wearing the same.

Odd and distinct type of undergarment that the Japanese man that we’ve seen him wear before.

Todd: And

Craig: when I saw that, I noted it, but in my mind being an American and not very culturally savvy, I just thought, well, maybe they just wear those.

Todd: I didn’t,

Craig: I didn’t know, but I think that it was meant to be a hint that those two had some sort of tie.

So there was a little bit of a hint, but it caught me off guard. And I wasn’t surprised that the movie ended in the bleak. Way that it did. I kind of figured it was going to, I didn’t think that it was going to have a happy ending

Todd: shaman too, is somebody the grandmother called in, you know, so you don’t, it’s not like he showed up at their doorstep and said, Hey, I’m going to help you.

Like they invited him into the home. So, um, I thought it was interesting. There was a comment made, I think. I think it was by the mysterious woman in the movie, John goo asks her like, why? Like, why is he targeting my daughter? And she says, haven’t you ever been fishing? You know, you don’t, you just throw out a net and you just catch whatever you get.

That’s how he operates. He’s not targeting her. He’s just casting his net. And she took the bait. Right. And, uh, and that was. Depressing. I mean, the movie is an interesting statement on maybe the nature of, of religion. Good and evil. Um, director has been very coy about the movie, but he did say that the idea for the film spring out of a notion that he had one time, that was that he was exploring, which is what if God wasn’t really.

Always good. I’m not sure how that itself plays out in the movie, but I see this idea that you never really know where the evil is. And there’s this interesting notion that there’s this older one that there’s this young woman who’s kind of always chasing it yet. She seems to be pretty helpless at being able to actually stop what’s going on.

She really relies on other people making choices in order to save themselves or help prevent the bad things from happening, you know, like. She says, I cast a spell on your house, a trap to snare them, but you can’t go there. You’re going to break it. And he ends up going there and breaking it. So, and you know, the devil, I think the reason why I think that he.

Took the form of like Satan in the end, isn’t necessarily trying to say that he is Satan, but he’s an evil being maybe of the same line or whatever, but that is what this Catholic kid probably would have seen. He even shows him his hands and he’s got stigmata in his house. He says to him the similar line from Luke, he’s like, you can see, I’m not a ghost.

How does a ghost have fleshed? Like I do. So there’s also this notion that, you know, maybe evil isn’t so mysterious, it’s just present and very real in the world, in the flesh. Right. And we don’t know where it’s coming from and, uh, you can’t always trust your instincts. And sometimes you’re just completely helpless against it.

And I feel like from the beginning of this movie, to the end of this movie, we follow this father through it and we are following his same journey of complete and utter helplessness. Even when we think we’re doing something, it doesn’t really go anywhere. Right. Even when we’re chasing this Japanese guy, we think we’re going to get them.

It doesn’t really amount to a Hill of beans of the, at the end of the day. You know, it was just another thing to do in the meanwhile the bad stuff’s still going to happen. Uh, and so, you know, the movie’s really a downer, I think thematically. And obviously a plot wise and they, they said they were gonna, that they had filmed a deleted scene.

That was going to be a tale ending to this one. I’m one of those clever hahaha, where we would see the Japanese man again, by the side of the road on a bench or something, trying to entice a girl whose parents then take her into the car and drive away. And then the mysterious woman shows up in the foreground, staring at them in the distance as though she’s continuing to pursue him across whatever deeds he’s doing.

But, uh, that was, I think, wisely probably for the same reasons that he cut the scenes of her, her overtly chasing him through the right. Uh, it was probably wise to leave the ending just a little more open like that as well.

Craig: Overall, I think that this is one of those movies that I can appreciate, like I said, I there’s nothing there.

I would criticize specifically for whatever reason that just didn’t come together for me. But I think that overall it’s really well done. Um, one of my favorite, uh, contemporary. Film makers, horror filmmakers right now is Ari Aster, um, who did hereditary and mid-summer in an interview in 2019. He cited this as his favorite horror movie.

And that makes perfect sense because I can see so many parallels between this and his work, you know, the bleak nature of things, the. Intricate storytelling. Um, the unexpected, uh, plot points and twists

Todd: the family dynamics,

Craig: the family dynamics, you know, I, I can, it appears to me that he has been influenced by this film in this filmmaker.

And I really like his stuff. So, uh, I don’t know. I, I hate to say this about myself because it’s a flaw in me, but I think that maybe it is the cultural divide that somehow prevented me from enjoying this as much as I could have. And again, that’s, that’s, that’s nothing about the film. That’s about me,

Todd: right?

I can understand that don’t feel bad about that, especially like you said, if you’re second guessing certain things, cause you’re not sure if it’s just a cultural thing or if this is supposed to be weird or, you know, whatever. Like you can be a little lost in that respect. I think, you know, for me, I was very comfortable in this world because yeah, it’s very similar to Japan where I lived for three years.

You know, this is, I mean, obviously Japan and Korea are two different countries, but they share a lot of similarities in the way that they live and their culture. And so, um, and I’ve been to Korea a number of times. And so a lot of this. This stuff. Wasn’t really a question for me. Uh, so it wasn’t a barrier, you know, to my enjoyment of the movie or understanding of the movie.

Like I could totally understand that it might, it might raise some questions and make it a little difficult for you to follow or, or really feel confident that you’re interpreting it correctly. Yeah, for sure. I loved it. I really did. And I’m not sure that it’s a movie I could have watched if I was really tired because it is a little slow.

I’m not to say that, like we said earlier, not to say that things don’t happen, but it’s just not, you know, action packed. Uh, but. I thought it kept my interest from beginning to end and I was pretty happy with the pace of it overall. And the two and a half hours did go by much quicker than I thought they would.

So I think if you are interested in this kind of movie after our discussion, you should definitely could go seek it out on Amazon prime, where it’s available for free. If you have Amazon

Craig: it’s it’s on shutter too. And yes, I would recommend this movie. Hands down, uh, especially to horror fans, but I, and I say this a lot, but also just anybody who’s, you know, appreciates well-made film because I do think that it’s very, very well made.

Um, and I think that it would have a lot of appeal for both horror fans and just fans of good filmmaking.

Todd: Great. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter. And also on our website too, guys, that red 40 net.com, please leave us a message and let us know what films you would like us to review in the future until next time I am Todd

Craig: and I’m Craig

Todd: with two guys and a chainsaw .

Lots of love for this creature feature directed by the late, great Stan Winston, and starring Lance Henricksen. It’s a morality tale about the nature of vengeance, and (spoiler alert) we basically had nothing but good things to say about it. If you haven’t seen it yourself, check it out before you listen to our chat. And no, there’s no creature with a pumpkin for a head in it. That would be stupid.

Pumpkinhead (1988)

Episode 229, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Craig: Hello and welcome. So did you guys win the chainsaw? I’m Craig and I’m Todd and we’ve been doing it this podcast for a long time now. And so a lot of the movies that have been pretty impactful to us in our lives from our childhoods or early adulthoods, especially. We’ve covered. And so at this point, we’re kind of having to, uh, look a little harder and think a little bit harder about what we’re going to do each week.

Todd said I could pick this week. So I just went onto the streaming services to see what was available. And I ended up on Tubi, uh, where one of the featured films that showed up right at the top of the screen was 1988 Pumpkinhead. As soon as I saw that, I thought. Oh man. That’s what we should do. And then frankly, I couldn’t believe that we hadn’t done it already.

I don’t know how we miss this one. This is kind of the big one from the eighties is I remember seeing this when I was young. I don’t remember how old I am. I’m pretty sure I watched it with my dad and all I really remembered about it. Was that I kinda liked it, but I thought that it was, you know, well known enough and had enough of a cult following.

It would definitely be worth revisiting. So that’s what we did this week and that’s kind of my history with it. What about,

Todd: Oh, I’m so glad you picked this movie because I have a bit of a storied history with it myself. When I was in high school, I had a English teacher, his name was Mr. Bell, and he was a very big influence on me.

And I’m pretty notorious among my friends. He was, um, probably still is a, a yes, the guy who would challenge you, you know, he would love to start off the class by saying, I’m going to lie to you. And I’m going to tell you things that aren’t true and it’s your job to challenge me and catch me on it and that sort of stuff.

And so. His notion was that in his class, he would always keep us on our toes and he would give us puzzles. And he did a really, really good job of just setting yes. Up for every unit. And every theme that we did, he also loved to, um, give us old poems and no Hawthorne, you know, really deep petty kind of stuff, and ask us to interpret it and things.

And so he was really very into. Theming his units and his ideas and kind of grouping literature and stuff around it. And I’m pretty sure, sure. It was during one of these units where we were diving in deep into something that had to do with revenge that he said, we’re going to watch Pumpkinhead and.

None of us. I think in the class had seen it before and we may have even needed to get our parents’ permission to watch it, because I think it’s right at our right. And I remember two sessions and mr. Bell’s class sitting down and watching Pumpkinhead, and then we discussed it afterwards. And, uh, we went in pretty deep on the movie because the movie it’s a good one to show to high school students.

Really, if you’re going to try to get some thematic, you know, get them to analyze it because it’s, it doesn’t hide its themes. It’s it’s pretty laid bare. You might even say it’s almost a little too heavy handed, but it was really cool for us as kids to probably have, I think for me, maybe the very first experience I ever had critically analyzing the thematic material of a movie.

So that, that, that class is just one of the very few from high school that really sticks in my mind. So. I was really anxious to revisit this movie, which I haven’t seen since then to see if it held up, uh, the way that I remembered it being so cool. You know, the way it was presented to me.

Craig: Yeah. That’s interesting.

I mean, it is kind of a morality play an allegory about a revenge and the dangers of revenge and that’s, you know, I think totally worthy of discussion. I’m impressed by your English teacher, thinking of that. It’s a, the movie came out in 1988 and it was, was inspired by a poem. And then Stan Winston wrote the screenplay with another guy.

Um, Mark Patrick Carducci I think, or, or Noakes, maybe that guy wrote the story and Stan Winston just directed Stan Winston was approached to do this movie to do the effects to the, do the creature effects. Cause that’s really what he’s known for. Um, I mean, Stan Winston is one of the biggest names in Hollywood, special effects.

Am I right?

Todd: Yup. Yep. Unfortunately died in 2008, but he was for sir for sure.

Craig: And he worked on a drastic park and the Terminator franchise and tons of other big stuff.

Todd: Yeah. Leviathan.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, huge. Huge huge, great, uh, effects movies. And they approached him with this and he, he read it and he said, all right, I’ll do it.

But I want to direct this movie. And this was his first feature length directorial project. And actually, as it turns out, he mostly just ended up doing supervisory stuff. As far as the effects were concerned, the folks who actually did work on the effects. Said that Stan Winston was great to work with because he knew what he was doing.

Um, they said that, uh, so often when they work with filmmakers, filmmakers have these ideas, they don’t really have the knowledge or skill to how to realize those ideas. And so it’s a lot of hit and miss with Stan Winston, you know, they could show him something and he could just say, yeah, that’s good or no, not quite yet.

And, uh, they had a lot of freedom, um, and. Apparently virtually everybody who worked on this movie said that, uh, Stan Winston was just an absolute joy to work with. It was a really fun production laid back. They shot it on a small budget, $3 million. And for that, I think that it looks amazing. And for somebody, yeah.

Directorial debut. I gotta be honest with you. I, you know, I hadn’t seen in probably 20 years, um, maybe more, uh, and I remembered liking it, but I kind of anticipated that, looking back at it now I would find it kind of cheesy and hokey and would probably find a lot of flaws in the effects and that type of stuff.

I loved this movie. I loved it. It was so, so good. And I guess not surprisingly so, but, um, for this type of film, you know, a creature feature, low budget relatively low, anyway, there was so much opportunity for it to fall into that category of bad or so bad. It’s good. But I have very few, really, if any criticisms, uh, of the movie, I just thought it was great.

Overall, um, am I going to be alone in that boat?

Todd: No, I don’t think so. I mean, the movie’s dripping with atmosphere and that’s the one thing I’ve got to say about it. It has so much atmosphere. It’s almost oppressive. It’s just, you never get out of the darkness and the smoke and the candle light and the half lit scenes.

Basically, as soon as the action starts, you’re there all the time in some ways, because a lot of it takes, most of it takes place in the woods. It’s a little evocative of Friday the 13th. In fact, one of the cabins in the movie is the cabin that they used in Friday, Friday the 13th, the final chapter, and has been used in a lot of other movies by the way.

So it’s, it’s really heavy and thick and just dripping with atmosphere. And I think that that’s where a lot of that higher quality, higher budget. Feel comes from it because he was simply able to do so much with so little money, because even build the frame with, with great lighting and shadows, um, you know, the, the witch’s cabin that we get to at some point, you know, has candles and just spiders and snakes and crap all over the place.

It would seem cheesy and hokey. If it weren’t played so straight and so dark, it’s really dark. And I’m not just talking about the visual, like the it’s a very dark movie, apparently at Stan Winston’s request that the movie be written a little darker than the original script he was given. And so they made some changes to make it more serious.

So it’s a S I mean, you could say, say it’s a slasher movie in a sense, a creature type slasher movie, but it doesn’t have those winks and those nods and that humor. In it at all. Right. Right. So it’s a different kind of movie. It’s, it’s starkly different than a lot of stuff that we normally watch. I think even though on its face, when you just talk about it, it doesn’t seem like it should be.

It just kind of came together that way, which is interesting. Like you said, everything I read too said that this guy was a blast every day at the set, he was joking around. He was laughing at you so easy going, like he had no care in the world and just completely full of self confidence. Uh, as a first time director that, uh, everybody has great things to say about him and the experience of making this movie.

It’s, it’s almost a wonder he didn’t direct more. He really didn’t direct much more than this.

Craig: No, he didn’t the guy who wrote the screenplay cited Mario Bava as one of his influences, which I thought was interesting. Didn’t we do a Bava film recently.

Todd: We did one by his son. Uh, demons was, uh,

Craig: his right, right.

Gotcha.

Todd: We’re going to do more Baba. If I say about it, but

Craig: this screen storytelling is good. I mean, it feels very much like, um, a legend. I mean, like I said, it was inspired by an original poem, but it feels very much, I don’t want to say urban legend cause it’s more of a rural, uh, atmosphere, but, um, it feels like a kind of traditional.

Legend. And interestingly enough, you know, you say that, uh, once you get into that atmosphere, you know, you’re just kind of stuck in that dark, scary atmosphere for the rest of the movie. And that’s true. True, but really we don’t even get it right there until halfway through the movie. There’s quite a bit of set up through the set that up is just as intriguing.

As to when the monster finally appears and starts killing people. Um, in fact, maybe even I think the first half of the movie is really, really strong and really provides a nice foundation then for. You know, the scary monster part it opens up in. Um, well, first of all, I want to say the scoring of the movie is great.

A guy named Roger Stone did it. And from the very beginning, the opening credits, which are pretty long, the score is fantastic. And I was just into it right away. It opens up in 1957 and we are with the. Childhood family of what will be our main character. His name is ed Harley. Um, and this is during his childhood and he lives in a very rural area.

Apparently with his parents. We come, I went to them at night and the mother is putting ed to bed and. There’s a lot of tension in the house and the dads kind of wandering around with his gun, securing the animals. And eventually they locked themselves in the house and we see somebody being chased by what we don’t know right away.

Um, but this year the guy is being chased by something and he shows up at the door he’s seeking sanctuary. Um, but they won’t let him in. They say, we can’t, we can’t let you in. We have to stay out of this. You have to get out of here and eventually something grabs him and drags him away. And little ed looks out the window and we get a full frame shot.

Of our monster for the movie Pumpkinhead.

Todd: Yeah. It’s kind of amazing, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, they don’t shroud the creature in secrecy at all. And so his first viewing of it as a child is our first one as well. But then we jump to the present where he is now grown at his grown living, apparently in the same area, maybe even the same house that he

Todd: grew up in.

I think it’s the same house. Yeah,

Craig: probably is. Um, and it’s just him and his super, super cute son. This, this tiny little bit blonde boy with these thick glasses and they just have this wonderfully sweet. A relationship and you just kind of see them going about their daily thing. Eventually the dad says it’s about time and to go to the store cause they apparently run a little general store, but before they go, so his son gives him a gift and it’s just, you know, a necklace made out of twine and maybe like a little stick man figure made out of.

Clay or something very rough, very much something like a child would make, but he gives it to his dad and so cute. Oh, well now this is something goes around the neck. This is something special. I really like it. I love it. Don’t have to wear it every day and nothing just from the stretcher. Give me a hug. I never taken it off this bond between the father and son is so integral to the plot.

And I just thought. By the way adult ed is played by Lance Henrickson, who looks young and handsome and fit. And I just think he does an amazing job with this role. And I believe 100% in this relationship between him and his son. And I think that if that happens, worked, then the movie wouldn’t have worked at all.

Todd: That’s right. Yeah. It’s key. And, and Lance Hendrickson, I believe had just come off of near dark for this and an interesting bit of trivia I discovered and also saw some online interviews with him on YouTube that, uh, he apparently, when he’s getting ready for his rolls, likes to collect. Props to use a movie.

So he together some of his own costume, he found a ball cap that he wears in the movie that he thought would fit his character. He had a world war II era shotgun that he bought when they were down filming near dark. Probably appeared in that movie that he asked Stan, Stan Winston. He said, please can I use this in the film?

And he agreed. And then later he has a bag full of silver dollars that he actually went around to some antique stores and gathered up so that he could have it, this film. So this guide, I mean, he’s a great actor. He clearly gets into his role and has unique ways of doing it. Everything he’s been in I’ve.

Usually really enjoyed his performance and never had a bad thing to say about it. He was Bishop in aliens. Um, like I said, near dark, we’ve done at least one or two other films that he was been in. Was he in Leviathan as well? I

Craig: don’t know why. I remember

Todd: fantastic guy and you’re right. Their chemistry is integral to the part a because if that hadn’t of worked, uh, the rest of his actions really wouldn’t have, um, Really wouldn’t have come off for us.

It would have, it would have started to feel cheesy. Yeah.

Craig: Yes, absolutely. Like I said, they work or the dad I guess, owns and runs a general store, so they go there and then we are introduced to our typical cast of jerky, 20 something on a road trip. You know, coming to this area to rent a cabin, to do some dirt bike riding.

There’s a whole bunch of them, kind of the important ones. There’s Joel, who’s like the jerky leather jacket wearing one drinking beer while he’s driving, et cetera. And then he’s got a brother Steve. A younger brother, Steve, um, Steve’s girlfriend is Maggie. She has long blonde hair. Um, and then Joel has a girlfriend too.

I didn’t catch her name until much later in the movie. I don’t remember what it is. She doesn’t

Todd: have much to do.

Craig: Kim. And then one other couple, Chris, who’s kind of a preppy guy and his girlfriend, Tracy. Who’s like the center. Yeah. But anyway, these kids all show up and of course they’re fish out of water in this rural area and they’re kind of fascinated by the small country store and.

This other local family, the Wallace family pulls up in their pickup truck and it’s so stereotypical, but hilarious. Yeah, I say hilarious, but yeah, not in a laugh out loud kind of way. Just in. The portrayal of kind of this backwards family, like we’re talking about, you know, a bunch of kind of Slack, jawed kids dirty, where I’d like

Todd: oversized, hand me down clothes,

Craig: like burlap sacks, basically

Todd: fair they’re unkempt and, and who comes out of the.

Who comes out of the truck, but our good old buddy buck flowers,

Craig: buck flowers plays a little bit against type here cause he usually plays a drunk or a bum. And then here, I kind of get the feeling that he’s kind of an upstanding guy in this very rural community. Like he’s got this huge family that all lives on.

His farm and this is just a sampling of them.

Todd: That’s true.

Craig: He goes inside to get what he needs and the kids stay out. I would never have noticed. I just happened to look at the full cast list and saw an interesting name. One of these little kids who piles out of the back of this truck is my MBE Alec. In her first film role.

I think she maybe has one or two words of dialogue, but interesting. My first,

Todd: she,

Craig: she went on to do a lot bigger and better things.

Todd: I never would have recognized her if you had noticed. Right. I mean, if you hadn’t.

Craig: No, but I did go back like after I, cause I didn’t notice at first and then afterwards I was looking through, I, I.

Went back to that scene. And if you look, you can tell it’s definitely her.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah.

Craig: The oldest boy, his name is starts with a B what’s his name? Punt.

Todd: Yeah, hopefully his nickname.

Craig: Yeah. And, uh, he is played by a guy named Brian Bremer, who we have seen before. Did you remember him? He was Pino in silent night, deadly night, five to remember

Todd: the halls.

Oh, my gosh, I knew he was familiar, but I didn’t know where he was from.

Craig: Good old peanut. He was also in society, which is another one.

Todd: Oh, society’s the one I recognized him from, I think. Yeah.

Craig: And, uh, these, these, uh, kind of, I don’t know, I don’t want to call them all jerks cause they’re not. But, you know, these 20 something kids are interacting with the locals.

And one of the local kids starts getting taunted by his brothers and sisters. And they do this chant. This poem, Jimmy, Joe, you done bad. Y’all know what settles on battens. Don’t you. Punkin head Tonkin head, yo stop. No head. What about all of mr. Foley? He moved away pumpkin cheered off his head and drank all the blood to shut up, keep away from

So we know there’s this. The problem comes when mr. Wallace, uh, asks for his grain or his feet or something. And ed says, Oh, shoot, I left it up at the house and get it real quick. And mr. Wallace says, no, I have to go. And it says, okay, well I’ll just drop it by the house later. And he says, that’s fine. So the Wallace is leave.

And then. Ed calls his son inside. Yeah. Says, stay here with the dog inside. And I just have to run up to the house real quick and I’ll be right back. Meanwhile, Joel, the jerky one pulls down his dirt bike and his brother, uh, does as well. And they’re dirt biking around gypsy, the son’s dog, Billy’s dog, here’s the bikes and runs out of the store.

And Billy goes running after him. And. Tragically fully accidentally, but tragically, these bikes come up over, um, a big Hill. And the one that Joel is writing strikes, Billy, and he goes down on the ground and, um, basically everybody we know what to do, but Joel immediately. Gets out of there. We find out later that it’s because he had been drinking and he had also been involved in an accident in which a little girl had been injured previously and he’s on probation.

And so he gets out of there and they just leave behind one, the rest of them go to the cabin because they want to, they need to get a phone. They want to call for help, but they leave the brother. Joel’s brother there and they all leave. And eventually ed comes back and notices that Billy’s not there goes outside, sees him kind of runs over to him.

Very gently, puts his glasses back on and picks them up and begins carrying him back towards his truck. The brother, Steve says, you know, it was an accident. What can I do? And ed just looks over his shoulder and gives him a glare. To end all glare. If looks could kill seriously, that guy would’ve dropped dead.

Todd: Well, it’s a pretty hopeless situation because we don’t know, like we don’t know if the kid is dead or not. And in the, in the. Shots that you see of him. You can see his eyes are flickering. And I don’t know if that was just a mess of the filming or if that was intentional or it doesn’t really matter because we’re not really sure if he’s dead that really gets to you after a while somebody needs to help this kid.

But there’s so far out in the middle of nowhere. There’s no phone. Everybody’s gone. You remember this time before cell phones, when we just, we were pretty helpless at this point and dad comes back and he carries him inside. And his first thing is to get. Oh, God, this is just terrible. He goes to get a washcloth full of water and sits down and has him cradled in his arms and starts talking to him and wipes his face down and all the boy says his daddy.

And then clearly just he’s gone. I cried.

Craig: Okay. Like I was,

Todd: uh, me to

Craig: cry. Yeah. Not even just a single, like movie here, like crying. It was so sad.

Todd: It is. I mean, and this is parent’s worst nightmare. And this, that, like you said, they had such a fantastic relationship. You don’t know where the mom is. There’s no mention of where mom went or whatever,

Craig: but just know.

Wait find out she’s dead because, uh, eventually he berries the sun next to next to next to Billy’s mother. He says something like, yeah, they took our boy. Um, but I’ll get ’em or something like that. Yeah. I mean, that’s, I spent so much time on that early part. Cause I swear that’s the part that sucked me in and I was just.

Devastated. I knew the kid was going to die. Cause I’ve seen the movie before, but even having seen the movie before, it was just tragic and more so tragic because they had such a wonderful relationship and it was just the two of them. And to, I can’t imagine, um, that kind of, of loss, especially no parent should ever lose a child as far as I’m concerned in that.

Uh, it’s just, it’s horrible, but that’s why I spent so much time on that. After that it pretty much just kind of becomes, um, a revenge slash monster movie. Cause ed goes to mr. Wallace, um, and shows him his son’s body and stuff. I supposedly there’s this old woman up in the woods. Can you tell me where she is?

And he says, no, I don’t know anything about that. I’m sorry about your boy.

Todd: You got

Craig: she’s the only one that can help him. Like I said, I’m sorry. You got to tell me, God damn it. She gained. LPM all she can do is take you straight to L you go on home, you go home and you bury your boy. But Bundt over here is this and intercepts ed as he’s leaving and says, I know who you’re talking about.

I can tell you where she is. He just wants a little money. And so ed gives them some money, but takes him halfway. He won’t go all the way. Cause he says that lady freaks him out, but he takes them halfway and points him towards the witchiest swamp cabin. You’ve ever seen in your life.

Todd: It could not be any wittier than this swab cabin.

I mean, any movie you’ve ever seen with a witch in it, multiply it times 10. This is it. This is the back. This is the quintessential Backwood, which as soon as he opens the door to this cabinet and walks inside, there are candles everywhere that apparently she lights due to flee every evening. It’s crawling with their like bones and there’s cobwebs and spiders.

And

Craig: it’s

Todd: like how it’s ween in, in this woman’s apart. And she looks like, I mean, if her skin were green, it would be the only thing separating her from your quintessential Halloween, which you don’t get a good head on shot of her face for a while. She’s sitting in front of the fire and she’s not even looking at Tim, uh, as he talks to her.

Uh, but yeah, you can see her skin is just completely wrinkly and weathered her hair is. Threadbare and white and just everything’s lit from the back with a glow by the fire. Her eyes seem like they’re cataract over and the way she talks box is just this raspy voice. It sounds like it hurts just. Just speaking.

And he asked her to help him and she says, I can’t raise the dead. Uh, and uh, he said, I know, but, uh, I hear talk of, uh, you know, something else you can do for me. And she said, are you sure that you want this? Because it comes at a great price. And he pulls out his bag. This is where he has a little satchel and Lance Hendrickson, you know, the way he described this was this, this would probably be like basically all the money savings that this guy has in his life is, you know, enough to just hold around one hand in a satchel.

And he dumps all of these coins and a few pieces of jewelry into a cup on her table. And her instructions are to go up to the old cemetery where people used to bury their unwanted kin. In a pumpkin patch area of the cemetery and dig up this one body. And he says, well, how will I know which one it is?

And she says, Oh, you’ll know. And he goes to this pumpkin patch again, the creepiest Halloweeny is pumpkin patch in the middle of the woods. You could imagine. And, uh, there is a sort of a raised pedestal of earth, just like a mini. I hate to call it a Hill. It’s like a tiny little plateau. That’s jutted up.

It looks like a table. And he climbs to the top of it and digs into the soil. Interestingly enough, the soil is pretty loose up there, but like this thing’s been dug up a lot and he pulls out this withered body. It looks charred. It’s enough. Fetal position and fairly small. And he brings it back to her and takes it into her cabinet and sets it down.

And she looks down at it and says your looking at vendors  and that’s our theme. And she goes through her incantations and pour some stuff on him, brings the father’s hand over and cuts his hand so that some blood. Uh, drips down into the bowl, which she then pours onto the corpse and then takes it over to the boy’s body and cut some blood from the boy as well, and mixes that in and uses it to resurrect this creature in front of us.

And so it, we see it, we see it move and you know, it kind of grows and, and gets up. And immediately as this creature is getting life and getting power and starting to stand up and grow. Ed is getting woozy. He pretty much doesn’t even see this go on because his eyes are closed. He eventually falls to the floor and passes out and we see the creature on the other hand, stand up strong full-on shot.

I mean, you know, from legs to, to top

Craig: and it looks fantastic. It looks so good. I mean, mostly, I guess this is, is an example of a guy in a rubber suit, but the suit looks so good and I don’t know what else they did with it. It’s this tall demon looking monster with, um, it’s a humanoid kind of, so it’s got, you know, two legs, uh, that it stands up right on these long arms with really long fingers with.

Claws big protruding shoulder blades and hip bones, a long tail with kind of a. Blade or something on the end of that. And then a big monstrous head that doesn’t really look like a pumpkin. It’s not named Pumpkinhead because it looks like it literally has a pumpkin head, but because it comes from the pumpkin patch.

Todd: Yeah. Cause that would be silly. Cause that would be super,

Craig: no, they take. They deliberately said they did not want it to be too reminiscent of a pumpkin, even though it is bulbous, it’s bigger than a human head. It’s got kind of a Xenomorph feel to it.

Todd: Yeah. It really is hard to deny that, um, the Zena morph look, I mean, it’s very boney.

Right. And its skin is really pulled tight over its body. It, it has the image of a D kind of a decomposed corpse. You know, its skin is kind of whitish and pale, but it’s pulled across these bones, but there’s something odd about it. It does, you know, it’s human, but not in the right ways. Right. Like you said, it’s got these shoulder blades that just juts right up, like its arms were just shoved past its shoulders.

And, and they said that they did this as kind of a way to evoke that image of a demon Lehman horns without literally putting the horns of a demon on the creature, which would look silly. And yeah. And it’s got this, like you said, sort of a humanoid face with a nose that’s more implied than really, they’re just wrinkled up a little bit in, in its wrinkles.

And then its eyes are kind of glassy and white and it’s hard to see it. Yes, it does have some pupils that are a little reptilian. You hardly ever see those. And I guess this movie has sequels. The monster is a little different in the following sequels. And it’s not even necessarily the same monster, really in the subsequent movies though, the eyes are completely white.

And then it’s standing up on these legs that are kind of, they bend backwards like a Seder, which apparently was a new thing. This is the first time that they were able to achieve this. They tried to do this with predator. I don’t know if you’ve seen the history because Stan Winston’s team worked on predator as well.

And it went through quite a few. A creature design changes before he was brought on board. And the problem with this kind of rig with a movie like predator is that anyway fast. And it was really hard for the actor, even in this big, heavy suit to be up on the kind of a stilted type thing that’s required for that to, to get this effect of the knee, that kind of bends backwards.

So for most of the movie, actually they do have some wide shots, but though that’s done with a suit that’s not quite as bulky. And the closer shots of him are usually from the legs up. So you can’t see that part down below because he just couldn’t have that on all the time, doing all of the full on monster movements and things.

But yeah, it’s, it’s other worldly it’s demonic and big and it does look like something that was reanimated from a severely messed up, not right corpse. Right.

Craig: And it’s all practical. You see it mostly in the dark, whenever Pumpkinhead is around suddenly, you know, there’s like flashing lightening and stuff for atmospheric purposes.

Now that if that’s part of its powers or whatever, is that, you know, not really clear, but there, you know, there’s, there’s flashing light, like kind of lightning and stuff that you can see it in, but you mostly see it in the dark, but it looks as far as practical effects go. I think this is some of the best creature work I’ve ever seen.

Todd: Yeah. And he, and he doesn’t, again, this is a master who exactly who the director happens to be an expert in this field. So he knows what he can do and what he can’t do and how he can get away with stuff. And it’s really important to note that unlike a lot of other low budget movies, where they use a lot of tricks to hide the deficiencies of their creature, there’s a lot of shadow.

You only get to see quick glimpses of it or fast shots. Even though it’s very atmospheric and there is a lot of shadow and flashing light and stuff. You never get that feeling that they’re deliberately hiding the creature from you in any way, shape or form. In fact, you see an awful lot of this creature in all of its glory for a lot of the movie.

And it’s really impressive that way. It’s so satisfying. Yeah.

Craig: Uh, when they Lee, well, When they, uh, ed takes Billy’s body, um, and leaves because he, I guess the, which says it’s, it’s started now. You can go home and they’re driving back and there’s kind of this quick jump scare where Billy’s body shoots up in the seat and looks at his dad and says, what did you do, daddy?

It’s just his guilt bothering him. It’s not real. It didn’t happen. Um, but Lance Hendrix, you said that that is why he took this role. Uh, was that right? Just really quick scene of him feeling the guilt, but, and then after that, basically, you know, all of those kids, the 20 somethings are hunkered down in this cabin and there’s some drama with them, but it’s not important.

You know, now, uh, what’s his name? Joel, doesn’t want to tell because he’ll get in trouble. And so he locks the ones you do want to tell in the closet and blah, blah, blah. But basically at this point, as soon as Pumpkinhead is resurrected, He’s uh, hones in on them and he shows up at the cabin and he starts picking them off by one.

Yeah. Uh, and the kill scenes are not particularly, they’re exciting, but they’re not particularly unique from one another. Basically every time what happens is somehow kind of from off screen. Pumpkinhead either grabs them by the ankles and drags them away or from up in the trees. Like we’ll grab them by the heads and pull them up into the trees and, you know, kind of slice Adam with his claws.

But mostly he kind of just throws them on the ground and they die.

Todd: Yeah. You more or less just drop some and that’s, I mean, For what it’s worth. It’s not Friday the 13th. This is movie that is reveling in the Gore. Uh, it’s not a movie that’s even particularly gory. I mean, it’s gruesome and there’s some gory parts, but you know, not like, like for example, one of the kills, I can’t remember.

It’s one of the girls Pumpkinhead picks her way up in the top of this massively high tree that it’s no branches down below. I have no idea how he got her up there and then drops her on a rock. And you see her fall and then you see her, you know, back clearly broken on the rock with some blood around, but that’s it like you don’t see protruding bones or your guts flying out anywhere.

They haven’t been slashed to ribbons and their organs are spilling out. It’s just not that kind of movie. Even though it kind of is kind of movie from here on out as far as being more like a typical slasher. I mean, I have to, I have to say for me, this part of the movie got a little tedious maybe because I knew it was going to happen, but also I thought the characters were rather uninteresting kind of like your Friday, the 13th movie and the kills were themselves.

The act of the killings were. Kind of uninteresting and predictable. I mean, we kind of knew they would get picked off one by one and that’s almost exactly what happens. Yeah. It’s just the parallel action of the regret and the guilt that the father immediately starts feeling that’s going on. I think that.

Makes the movie more unique and keeps this moving. Ah, I felt it slowed down a little bit during this part to be completely honest.

Craig: Fair enough. I mean, we are talking, I think we’re in the last half hour, 25 minutes in the movie at this point and it slows down in that it’s repetitive, but it’s so moves pretty quickly.

And I have to say, you know, the more I think about it, I actually kind of like the economy. Of it, you know, this isn’t some serial killer who’s relishing in torturing people. This is a vengeance demon who has a job and his job is to kill these people. And that’s what he does. Like there’s no, there’s no messing around.

There’s no toying around with them. He just grabs him and kills him and moves onto the next one. I love though that he always returns the bodies. That is

Todd: so funny. Like

Craig: he’ll kill somebody out in the world, but then he’ll bring the body back and just like toss it in the house. Just to like show everybody else.

Todd: That is kind of interesting. Isn’t it? I haven’t particularly the one girl, the first one he kills the first girl he kills. Right? Cause Steve is the first one to go, which is interesting because Steve is like the nicest, most moral guy of the whole group. He’s the one who stays with the boy. He’s the one who’s arguing with his brother.

It’s like, he’s the good of the two brothers, right? Like there’s a good one. And there’s the bad one. Steve’s the first one to die. And his brother ends up being the last one to die. And his brother was the one responsible for the killing. You know, so it’s, uh, it’s an interesting twist. I think that at least is a little unexpected.

Craig: The thing that I found the hokiest in the whole movie is, was that they tried for like five seconds to give Joel a redemption arc. Like just out of nowhere, he has a change of heart. And like literally says, I’m going to be good from now on. And then that’s it

Todd: when you want, and he goes outside suddenly he’s willing to self sacrifice.

Craig: Well, Pumpkinhead kills all of them except for Joel and the two, like goody-goody ones. Um, Tracy and Chris and Tracy and Chris they’re running away. They end up at the Wallace farm and. Almost exactly the same scene plays out from the flashback. At the beginning of the movie where they’re pounding on the door, asking to come in the Wallace family, won’t let them in because the rule is Pumpkinhead will only kill the people that he’s been, you know, assigned or whatever, unless somebody else gets in his way.

And if you get in this way, then you’re fair game too. So they won’t let them in, but bunk here or buns, whatever his name is again, over here is all this. And he wants to see Pumpkinhead. So he goes out to help them and he leads them to this old church that I think that it’s implied that they started building it, never finished it, but it looks more like it’s kind of burnt out.

And again, it’s a very, you know, Halloween. Type, uh, area, but it looks really cool and they go there and chat for a few minutes until finally, uh, Pumpkinhead does show up and it’s just, they’ve run away. And Pumpkinhead slowly walks through this, burned out church with the lightning flashing and he walks up to a cross and gives it a dirty look and picks it up and smashes it.

And the sequence doesn’t really do anything at all to advance the plot. It looks. So cool to see him probably eight feet tall, just walking slowly down the aisle of this church. So it’s great.

Todd: Yeah. And it, it does advance the theme that we’re talking here about, you know, a demon from hell, uh, this isn’t, you know, just a monster or something like that.

This is something that has, uh, maybe is opposite a heaven, you know, opposite. Good opposite. Everything that, that cross stands for. Uh, so it goes in there and very purposefully smashes the cross up. I remember, I remember mr. Bell, my, uh, my English teacher really hammering this book in our interpretation of the movie.

In fact, I was reading about, um, the filmmaker’s intentions with this. Well, they also base it off of Lovecraft in lore as well. Uh, and there was some discussion as to maybe there is maybe hell is really just an alternate dimension of super nasty creatures that we don’t understand. You know, just like a hell raisers type series is kind of.

Kind of based predicated on that too, which is also Lovecraft in, you know, in a way. So that is another thing. It kind of sets this apart. Is that right? Whole mythology behind it? I feel like it’s is rich. It’s is ripe for playing with and, and fleshing out. I’m not sure how much of that they do in the site.

Subsequent movie, so that I haven’t seen any of the subsequent movies. They seemed like cheap, direct to DVD deals. To me, but anyway, yeah. So I think that scene is powerful for that. And the visual, like you say that it has like this, thing’s not going to mess around. You’re not going to be able to kill it by shooting it or cutting its head off.

You know, it’s just not going to happen. Right. This is not just a creature, it’s a supernatural demon. That’s going to kill you.

Craig: Yeah. And there’s not much they can do. They try to fight back a little bit. Meanwhile, every time Punkin head has killed someone, ed. Kind of sees it, uh, and experiences it along with him.

And we also see a couple of scenes where something will happen to ed he’ll get struck in the arm or he’ll get jabbed with a Pitchfork or something. And every time he gets hurt, Pumpkinhead gets hurt too. And ed is even, you know, having to witness these kids deaths. Ed feels guilty. And he goes back to haggis and says, you know, I want to stop it.

And she says, you can’t stop it. Um, and he says, well, I’m going to, even if it kills me and she says, well, it will. And he says, no, got you got you. He already has a.

But he knows he’s on his own. So eventually he shows up Pumpkinhead got Chris, but he’s not dead. He did kill Joel. Now they are hold up, I think in Ed’s house and they hide it. Cute little dog, gypsy hides in a box. And that was adorable. But Pumpkinhead finds. Buns and takes him outside. Um, he’s already beaten up Chris a little bit and it’s just been dragging him along, but hasn’t killed him yet.

Um, and Tracy is there. And eventually ed comes out and he’s got a shot gun. At some point, they shoot Pumpkinhead with a shotgun and he goes down, but then he just comes right back up. And ed realizes the only way, uh, to kill Pumpkinhead will be to kill himself because they are somehow. And I didn’t remember this, but, uh, in that final scene, Pumpkinhead.

And Ed’s appearance, both begin to change. Ed’s face becomes more like the demon and Pumpkinhead’s face becomes more like Lance Hendrickson. Did you notice that?

Todd: Yeah, I did. This is another thing we talked about in the class because you know, I mean, obviously the theme here, the idea is that this vengeance demon is, I mean, it’s, it’s all.

Obviously the responsibility of ed and ed is vengeance. Ed is the demon. Ed is this, this, you know, it’s a manifestation of his, a desire for this vengeance. And so you can summon this demon to kill them, but in the act of summoning, your responsible for it. Right? So. Pumpkinhead. And, uh, it’s made visually clear by the fact that his face morphs and to more and more, I think it’s supposed to be more and more close to ed until the final act is done.

But the final act doesn’t ever get done because they’re able to stop him. And the way they stop him is add crawls to the, to the, to the, his truck. He pulls out a little handgun. He has and tries to shoot himself in the head, but apparently it doesn’t quite work and it puts Pumpkinhead down, but not out Pumpkinhead reaches out and grabs one of the kids.

And it’s, what’s her name? Is it? So Tracy, she’s the one who’s left, left Pumpkinheads over there with the other girl. And, uh, she’s got the shotgun and ed reaches out to her and says, kill me, please. Uh, and so she ends up shooting ed and when ed dies, Pumpkinhead dies and bursts into flame spontaneous combustion.

Oh, so interesting, right? Yeah,

Craig: it was, it really was. And then, so you think that’s the end, but then there’s a great little, uh, in scene two where you see haggis and, and she’s on the mound in the cemetery where Pumpkinhead was buried and she’s burying him again. And what she is burying is the Pumpkinhead demon.

But. When the camera zooms in on the corpse, you see that it is wearing the name necklace that, uh, Billy had made for his dad. So yeah, in essence, the old body of Pumpkinhead had burned. And Ed’s body had become the new one, uh, which I didn’t remember. So I seemingly whoever summons, the demon eventually becomes the demon.

And then, you know, the next time somebody calls on the demon, it’s actually the last person in line. Uh, I did read, I have, I’ve seen part two. I don’t. A long time ago about, uh, I don’t remember a whole lot about it and I don’t remember if it was a theatrical release, but I think some of the same people were involved.

The third and fourth one came much later and they were cable TV, movies. They were scifi movies. I didn’t see them because I figured they probably wouldn’t be very good. They actually didn’t get terrible fan reviews. Um, but I guess in all four of the movies. You never see what happens if. Pumpkinhead completes his mission because in all of the movies, the summoner gets killed before the mission is complete.

So who knows what would happen if he was able to actually finish his job, but based on what we have, we don’t know,

Todd: or does the seminar always die? And that’s the price of vengeance, you know, It’s hard to say. Right. And I read also that there was talk in fact, is as early as 2017, uh, there were talk of a TV series for Sci-Fi called Tales for pop tales of Pumpkinhead.

And they were, it was just going to be a series of shorts, you know, stories on Pumpkinhead and different situations throughout the ages. Obviously this is an age old demon that’s been around since. Man has been around even some backstory on haggis, they were planning on, they were also talking about expanding it out to other demons because you know, like a greed one and a gluttony one, and whatever to kind of round out the deadly sins and create this home algae behind it.

But apparently that ended up getting canned. And there’s been a reboot of the series. Also, they’ve been talking about for years that I think as early as November of last year of 2019, they were getting ready to announce. Some news about it. And it had been supposedly in development house since at least 2016, maybe even earlier than that.

So we may see more Pumpkinheads. It’s hard to say

Craig: we will at some point. And I do. I agree with you that the story, the lore, um, there are a lot of ways that they could go with it and in the right hands, I think it could be done very well. Of course it could be total schlock too, but, but this movie isn’t, I really.

Really liked this movie I’m I was surprised by how much I liked it. And I think that part of that surprise just comes from why didn’t I remember how good it was and I’m being serious. When I say, I think it’s a really. Good movie, the effects are good. The cinematography is good. The acting that, you know, the 20 something things are really just fodder to be picked off.

Don’t care about them. Very much. Hendrickson is great. Um, the atmosphere, the music. Yeah. Even haggis the, which was played by a character actress who has a bazillion credits, uh, to her name. And she looks fantastic. Her costume, I read weighed something like 65 pounds or something like that. Really. It’s a perfect Halloween movie.

They just don’t get much better than this. This may very well be one of my favorite, if not my favorite creature features, period. I just think it’s, I just think it’s great.

Todd: Yeah. I’d echo everything that you said. And I, I was a little concerned that maybe I just felt that way because I have a little bit of nostalgia towards it.

But, um, the only thing I would say that’s a little bit negative about the movie for me is that it. I felt there wasn’t a lot of suspense as far as, Ooh, is he there? Is he not there? Air the winter start blowing and the lights start flashing and before you know, it, somebody has been grabbed, um, which is fine.

It’s just that kind of story. Like you said, once it starts moving, it doesn’t really stop the interest. I think in the intriguing is how are they going to stop it? And is dad going to be able to redeem himself by the end? So it’s a different kind of horror movie than. It seems to be on first glance, which is why it’s so great.

I think just something unique in the genre blanket and underneath something that seems on its face to be just another creature feature. Right. So it’s clever in that way. Right. Craig, you had mentioned a, this was based on a poem by Justin. I found the poem. Do you want to hear it? Sure. Keep away from Pumpkinhead, unless you’re tired of living.

His enemies are mostly dead he’s mean and unforgiving laugh at him and your undone, but in some dreadful fashion vengeance, he considers fun and plans it with a passion time will not erase or blot a plot that he has brewing. It’s. When you think that he’s forgot, he’ll conjure your undoing. Bolted doors and windows, barred guard dogs, prowling in the yard.

Won’t protect you in your bed. Nothing will from Pumpkinhead. That’s good.

Craig: Yeah, no, it reminds me of scary stories to tell them the dark or, um, just, uh, Those back in the day, parents just to tell kids or kids would, you know, spread these stories, uh, around to scare kids into behaving the boogeyman, you know, all of these things and it works well.

You know, I, I think that, uh, the movie captures the spirit of the poem. Uh, I like it. I may have to pull that out in my. English class around Halloween time sometime. Yeah.

Todd: Yeah. It’s very folklorish right, right. It’s like you said, the film’s got that air to it, which is really another really neat aspect of it.

Craig: I would recommend this movie to any fan of horror. You know, it came out in 1988, so there were probably a lot of younger than us or fans out there who may not know anything about it. And I would definitely recommend it as of right. This recording is available to stream for free on. To be. Um, but those switch out pretty often.

So I don’t know, by the time this gets posted, if it’ll still be there, but you should be able to find it relatively easily, it’s definitely worth seeking out. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, there are tons and tons of back episodes that you could listen to if you’re just now discovering it.

And if that’s the case, uh, spread the love, tell a friend we would love to, to reach even more people. You can find us anywhere. You can find your favorite. Podcasts we’re on Stitcher and iTunes and Google play. And like I said, just about anywhere you can Google two guys in a chainsaw podcast, you’ll find our website.

Uh, we have a Facebook page, so there’s all kinds of places that you can find us. We will be back sometime in the coming weeks with another movie until then I’m Craig

Todd: and I’m Todd

Craig: with two guys and a chainsaw.

Craig went off the deep-end this week to dig through the dustbin of history and brush of this wacky flick starring none other than a super-young Denise Richards, Paul Walker, and a convenient animatronic dinosaur.

Is it horror? Well, the R-rated “gore version” certainly is, and that’s naturally the version we reviewed. But it’s also a self-aware screwball comedy that is dated as hell in the most lovely way possible. Have a listen and see if you can log into Shudder or some other streaming service to watch this jaw-droppingly fun film. Then come back here and revisit it with us.

Tammy and the T-Rex (1994)

Episode 228, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Craig: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Craig.

Todd: and I’m Todd.

Craig: Now last week, Todd picks the movie and after that was a total nightmare, uh, I thought that maybe I would try to pick something this week and see if I could do a little bit better. So

Todd: how you define better?

Craig: So I went looking around on all. You know, my streaming services and, uh, the movie that caught my eye was 1994 is Tammy and the T-Rex starring a baby Denise Richards and baby Paul Walker. I found this on Shudder, where it is available to stream in its original uncut version. The version that was originally released, um, in 1994 was heavily edited to get a PG 13 rating and be considered more fun family fare.

But fortunately the version that we saw is the hour and a half, uh, version with some of the original. Gore. And, um, a couple of other things put back in, I really didn’t know a whole lot about this movie going in, other than it looked and sounded crazy. And I thought that it might be kind of fun. Um, Todd knew, you know anything about this.

Todd: I didn’t know a thing about it. I mean, 1994, I was in high school, well into high school and I was a massive Denise Richards. Um, I was basically in love with her after Starship troopers came out, which I think was only a few years after this, right. She was 22 in this movie. And as soon as I saw that she was starring in this house, I was like, Oh man, this is going to be a lot of fun.

And I couldn’t believe how young she was. This is a fun, a fun movie, but I never, I never heard anything about it before or since, I guess it was what released to VHS more or less. And then. Kind of forgotten by history, right? Didn’t get a wide release and it didn’t really function well as a family film in a PG 13 format because apparently, um, well, I mean, clearly a lot large chunks of scenes would have to be cut, uh, to cut out the tremendous Gore or that exists alongside this.

Otherwise just. Goofy to the point of corny sex comedy, right.

Craig: It’s

Todd: almost what is give her so many sex jokes in this movie and it’s it’s so over the top, like there’s a doctor who talks, you know, has a heavy German accent, uh, and he has an.  Helga, you know, who’s tall and buxom of barely speaks. And every other line in this movie is some double entendre or joke.

And what I read, because we haven’t seen the PG through teen version, but I read that the PG 13 version cuts out all the Gore, but still leaves all of the sex jokes. Imagine, you know, That’s so silly.

Craig: Uh, yeah, I know, honestly, uh, to even call this a horror movie is kind of a stretch. I mean, there are, I guess some horror elements and there is a little bit, yeah,

Todd: there’s a lot of Gore

Craig: and some really, really fun practical effects.

Uh, but yeah, really it’s a screwball comedy, you know, we’ve done a few other movies kind of in this vein. Like I’m thinking like spooky as we talked about at one point yeah. Blood bath at the house of death. So it’s not entirely new territory for us, but it is a little bit different than our usual fare.

But I have to say, you know, honestly, when I was looking. At what we should do this week, I watched the first five or 10 minutes of two or three movies. There were a couple of others that caught my eye too. But, um, just the first five minutes of this movie, I thought

Todd: it’s

Craig: going to be so good. Yeah. So finally, once I landed on this, I sat and watched it by myself as I always do.

And Oh my gosh, I was just giggling and laughing the whole time. And. I always take notes and I always take way more notes than I do. I need to, because I usually barely even look at them when we’re actually talking. Um, but what I ha what I’ve found myself doing. In this movie was just writing down lines because there were so many hilarious lines and they’re juvenile and stupid and, you know, right up my alley because I was just cracking up the whole time.

And the other thing that I really liked about this movie that I had. Really no idea going in is it’s got, I want to say an amazing cast because it’s cast full of Oscar winning performers, but because there are so many recognizable faces in this movie and, you know, somebody would come on screen and I’d be like, ah, It’s fuck flowers, flowers, or, Oh, it’s that creepy kid from children to the core.

Todd: Oh, it’s Roche from the people under the stairs.

Craig: Yes. Oh, my gosh. So many fun, fun, fun cameos for people like us, who like these dumb movies.

Todd: And it’s so dated too. And you know, we live in this time, right? We love this late eighties, early nineties stuff. And, and this movie is just dripping with it. The costumes that people are wearing at points in this film are just over the top. Products of their time and the movie kicks off, probably, you know, you watch the first 10, five minutes.

That’s pretty much just the title sequence, right? It’s just, is leering, leering shots going through these girls, working out in a gym with all their leotards, Stefan, then this pumping, you know, like. Eighties pop sort of rock song in the background that somehow ties into the theme of the movie.

Craig: The whole, the whole song is written from the perspective of a Tyrannosaurus Rex, a little hair.

It’s so funny. And yeah, Denise Richards plays Tammy. Even though the titles, the title card says Tammy and the T Rex. And she’s a build is Tanny in the credits.

Todd: What’s a story behind that.

Craig: Well, they, the filmmaker it’s directed by a guy named. Stuart raffle. And I don’t remember if it was he who said this, but somebody said we just, we wanted to make everybody throw everybody off.

Cause you never really know what’s reality. The line between reality and fiction is so blurred. And I just in the back of my mind have to believe that that’s just totally bullshit and they just screwed up the title card.

Todd: Didn’t

Craig: care to go back and fix it. It’s kind of a weird

Todd: comic it’s font anyway. So, you know, it could be good.

It’s just been a typo.

Craig: Oh, it’s funny. But Denise Richard’s place, Tammy and she’s. I guess it’s cheerleading practice and she’s a terrible dancer. Yeah. That may have to do with the fact that this movie was thrown together. I think in three weeks. And the inception of the movie is, is interesting to me because the writer director.

Stuart raffle, as I said, was approached by some guy who owned some theaters or something in South America. And he just happened to have this animatronic T-Rex and he’s like, I’ve got this right. I’m going to be sending it to, he was going to be sending it to a theater or a museum or something about a month, but he had it available.

And so the writer director was like, okay, I’ll use it. And he wrote the script in about a week and they filmed it over the next two or three weeks. And he has said that he’s a major cheater as well, because he wrote it so quickly that just in the moment as they were shooting, he would ask the actors or anybody else on set.

Do you guys have any better ideas? Because so like

Todd: that wasn’t good lines. Oh forest, please. I have to imagine that that happened. I mean, it had to have happened cause some of these lines are so golden. Some of these lines are the kind of lines that probably have been in one person’s head. Forever. And they were just dying to use them until given the finally given the chance they’re just groaners, right.

Groner jokes left and right.

Craig: Yeah, they are. But they’re so funny. And I think that part of the reason why the movie works is that it seems like everybody knew exactly what they were doing. This is a bad movie and they knew it going in. They were. Making a stupid movie. And at times it’s so overplayed that it’s ridiculous, but at the same time funny, and at times, especially Denise Richards is like given her absolute all, you know, for in the most

Todd: ridiculous situations, she manages to play it straight.

It’s impressive. Yeah.

Craig: Denise Richards is a beautiful, beautiful woman, but I don’t think that anybody has ever accused her of being an amazing actress.

It looks great. And so she’s dancing to the T Rex song and what turns out to be, I guess, not necessarily her boyfriend, but this guy that is interested in her and she’s interested in walks in, and it is a 17 year old Paul Walker. And I swear that throughout the course of the movie, I couldn’t decide who was prettier, Tammy or Michael, because they are both just pretty well Walker.

He, he looks 17. He can’t weigh more than like 160 pounds soaking wet. He’s just this beanpole kid, but so cute and so charming and so charismatic. And it, it really is. Tragic that he was taken before his time, but it’s also interesting. To see these young actors, both of whom would go on to have successful careers.

Denise Richards, no. Had her spotlight kind of in the late nineties, uh, early on, but Paul Walker passed away. In the middle of one of the biggest movie franchises in the world in history. So I think that his star would have continued to rise and he seemed like a really cool guy, a nice charitable conscientious guy.

And it really is sad that his life was cut short, but, um, it was, it was really nice to see him young and. Handsome, not that he ever wasn’t handsome, but so anyway, he walks in, they’re both wearing crop tops. Okay. Did football players ever really wear crop? Just a thing in the movie.

Todd: Not at my school, even my school year, even in the nineties, I don’t remember that happening.

But, uh, nevertheless in the films you’d think they were all wearing them and nobody got made fun. Yes.

Craig: And they, you know, they’re cute and they walk out together and they bump into her friends. Byron, who is just this who introduces himself say work at girl. And I don’t know if he’s talking to Tammy or Michael Barbie girl.

Oh my goodness. Firing me. Michael was pleased to meet you in the flesh. You know, Tammy talks about you all the time. And I could think, girl, you didn’t exaggerate one out of, well, I got to fly by my cup, but he’s just this completely stereotypical gay guy and stereotypical black guy in so much as the way that he acts and talks is really flamboyant.

And then he dresses in like traditional well, Surely, not really, but like photo traditional, African garb, like what

talking about race right now is, is very, you know, sketchy. Uh, but things were different in the eighties and nineties, and I’m not suggesting in a better way, but you could kind of get away with. Playing to the stereotypes for comedy. And that is what is going on here, but he’s hilarious. He’s so funny. Yeah.

He’s kind of her sidekick throughout the movie. And, uh, he’s a funny, such a, I don’t know the actors got the actors name is Theo force. It, he doesn’t have very many credits at all. In fact, I think it was like 20 years or something. After this movie was made before he had one more acting credit or something like that.

But funny, funny guy and paired really well. She’s the straight man kind of in their duo. And he’s the comic relief. Just hilarious.

Todd: It’s good screenwriting. Especially when you’re on a rush, trying to do something fast as you throw this duo together. And they’re basically the duo throughout the movie with w with everything that happens and they can play to each other, like.

Laurel and Hardy are avid Castello. And she pulls a flower out of her backpack and hands it back to well is returning it to Michael and says, I’m sorry, I can’t accept this. And he’s like, why not? She’s like, because he’ll kill you. So she has a thing for him. He has a thing for her, but she has this ex-boyfriend who were immediately introduced to it because suddenly just like a storm, a car pulls up and 20 people come jumping out of it, running up to them.

Uh, and Billy is. Full on bully asshole. Like he should be in prison

Craig: over the top. And also like 35. It’s

Todd: supposed to be a teenager, but he they’re doing their best to try to make them look young. And it doesn’t

Craig: Michael, think you got to get out of here. I’m not running from this guy, Tammy. She’s going to hurt you.

What the hell you think you’re doing? You’re going to get out of this. I’m walking with this lady. What do you think you’re doing animal? That’s my lady. All right,

come on. You know, some, I’m not going to kill you this time. It’s cool.

Todd: Aggressively angry. And, and this was, I mean, full on trauma mode, I think.

Craig: Yeah, no, it reminded me so much of trauma. Yeah,

Todd: right? Yeah. Every trauma movie has this character in it. Who’s just insane. And you know, he’s going to kill somebody and he would be in prison if he existed in the real world. And it makes absolutely no sense that he’s pretty much allowed to run around with.

With abandon, what do whatever he wants in this movie and no authority figures whatsoever ever step in and do anything about it.

Craig: And he’s got a whole gang of lackeys, like six of them, one of them, you mentioned, uh, Sean Whalen, uh, Roach from the people under the stairs. He plays weasel. He’s

Todd: kind of,

Craig: Billy’s a sidekick, but when she had given him that.

Flower when Tammy had given Michael the flower, it also had a bracelet on it, apparently that he had given her. Um, and when he handed it or when she handed it to him and said, I can’t take this, he’s like, Oh, okay. And then he eats it and what is happening? It was a setup for later, but the moment I’m like, what is he.

That’s so weird. I guess he was being cute and funny. I don’t know, but right away, Billy and Michael get into a fight and it’s a hilariously choreographed and it ends when bill grabs. Michael by the Dick. And I wish there was some times that I wish on this podcast that we could show you things because the way that he like arches his back and screams

Todd: freezes,

Craig: aren’t able to move.

So the way for him to retaliate then is he grabs Billy’s Dick. And so they’re both just standing there squeezing each other’s. Packers.

Todd: Well, Byron’s going, Oh, that’s a good move

background casually. And then two police officers jump in. One of them is buck flowers. They’re going to break it up and buck flowers looks over at the other guy and goes

Craig: Oh my

gosh.

Todd: That’s that’s basically the through line of the whole film.

Craig: It is, there’s the tone right there. And, uh, the cops finally get them apart and, uh, Billy is still like moaning and groaning, but Michael’s not in the cops. Like what’s the matter boy ain’t you got a Dick. And he goes, I got a cup on smiles.

Great, big just the silliest jokes. But Billy threatens him and Michael tries to chase Tammy, but she incredibly melodramatically screams at the top of her lungs and runs away.

Todd: Oh, my

Craig: gosh. Oh. And then we cut to a different scene with different characters and that’s when we meet dr. Walk in the scene, played by Terry Kiser who most people would probably recognize as Bernie from weekend at Bernie’s.

And he’s got this great German accent and he’s got, like you said, this assistant named Helga who’s about seven feet tall and just busty and sexy. And like you said, doesn’t talk very much. I’ve got a couple of other lackeys too. He’s got one big beefy Lackey and he’s good. This other, I don’t know. The scientist

Todd: or scientists, computer nerd, or something,

Craig: who is, I thought of him as kind of the Igor to walk and Steans Frankenstein, Frankenstein, excuse me.

His name is Bobby and he’s played by John Franklin, who was, I think the main kid, the leader of the children of the corner

Todd: of the original film.

Craig: Yeah. And he has. This big animatronic T-Rex and that’s something else that I love about this movie. Like what it’s going to come down to is dr. Walkin Steen needs a brain to put into this.

T-Rex for reasons unknown. It’s never explained. He just wants to, I guess

Todd: your Igor character is put off by this because he thinks his computer is better. Like you said, there’s no real, I’m trying to figure out why he decided to build a dinosaur to transfer a human brain into for these experiments. I mean, later way later in the movie, he’s talking with hell gun, we get a little bit of explanation in that.

He has this idea that we’ll soon be able to transplant brains into robot bodies and nobody will ever die again. And that people will be able to transplant all kinds of bodies and they’ll make so much money selling these robots. So why he chooses a dinosaur? His very first experiment is a question that’s never answered, of course, except for the fact that the producers of the movie had a dinosaur they needed to use.

And I’ve got to say, uh, the, the writer director of this movie. Like you said Stewart raffle. He’s pretty smart. I mean, you get an animatronic dinosaur, that’s kind of limited and it’s definitely not going to match Jurassic park level quality. You don’t want to make a dinosaur movie. It’s going to look really stupid and lame, but he used the fact this animatronic.

Throughout the whole movie, we know it’s animatronic, that’s a plot point. And so therefore, yeah. Okay. That’s fine. I mean, it, you know, it neatly gets around that problem of the effect. Right. But this assistant goes up and then they, they test the dinosaur and he goes up to Tessa straggling test his strength.

The is like Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know, I have this dumbbell at the dinosaur, which in it’s tiny little T-Rex clause, just grabs it, nonchalantly, tosses it right back at him.

Yeah. In a scene that looks really dumb. And then he picks up a big log and he puts it into the dinosaurs jaw and the man upstairs presses a few buttons into the computer and the Janus or closes its jaw and just. Completely crushes this

Craig: thing,

that’s mobility. I mean, life beyond this and the limitations of a suit would come through,

give you that freedom. I won’t give you everything. I want to give you a little.

Todd: asking for trouble.

Craig: Oh, it’s hilarious. But you’re right, because it does look like an animatronic now to be fair. It’s a pretty good animatronic. I mean, it’s got some bad relative, especially in the face. It’s got some good movement now, the arms and the walking.

Todd: Is it

Craig: leave it, it does actually become mobile.

Um, it’s really, really hokey, but that is there that they’re not trying to go beyond that. It’s supposed to look hokey. It’s hilarious. And then there are scenes later in the movie where. Denise Richards is supposed to be writing the dinosaur and you see it from a distance and it really looks like somebody just has like a toy dinosaur with a Barbie on it that they’re like moving.

Todd: Oh, okay.

Craig: It’s wonderful. It’s so good.

Todd: It is hilariously bad,

Craig: but getting back to Michael and Tammy, she calls him and she apologizes tearfully and he’s all glum, but she says, but I want you to come over and then immediately he’s super, super excited and happy. Okay.

Todd: I’ll be right there. I’ll be off by the way.

That was the most realistic. See nanny acting in the whole film.

Craig: Yeah. Like he jumps up and he puts on his jacket and he heads out the door and then he turns around and he comes back in and he opens his nightstand and he like rifles around in there and he pulls out a condom and he kisses it. Yeah. And then, uh, the heads out.

And climbs the trellis into her room, but some of Billy’s friends see. And so they call Billy Tammy and Michael, uh, make out a little bit and say they love each other. And they’re both so pretty. But then, uh, Billy Billy’s gang shows up and like the sound of the house, like this whole gang teenagers, like breaks the door down.

Her parents are down there

Todd: standing aside basically while this happens.

Craig: Yeah. They, uh, what’s his name? Michael goes out the window, but they chase him and they catch him and they beat him up a little bit and they throw them into the trunk of the car and drive to a wild cat sanctuary

Todd: wild animal park, which is secured by just a metal gate, uh, with a chain and.

Padlock which they break through and drive their car into amongst. Lions that are walking around and Jaguars roaming freely within this park, or presumably

Craig: that looks like the size of, you know, like a city, a small city and all these. I don’t know how this works, but I would think that you wouldn’t just have all of these different species of wild cats in the same enclosure, but what do I know?

I don’t know. Um, and they’re, they’re real cats. I mean,

Todd: yeah.

Craig: I mean,

Todd: there are, I have Ben. Okay. So Beijing has an actual zoo like this it’s called the Beijing wild animals zoo or whatever. And I recently went there and they have kind of like a Disney’s animal kingdom where there’s a Safari where you can get on a bus.

And they take you through these areas where these wild animals are roaming. Fairly freely around the road and you can look through the windows and you can poke meat out and feel them and stuff. But of course, you know, they’re contained there. It’s like, it’s like a Stalag 16. Yeah. Going through you go in one gate, the gate closes behind you.

A gate opens in front of you and then you drive out, you have all these measures to keep these animals in. And then there’s another section of the park where you can actually take your own car through so you can drive. Through a similar area where they’re roaming freely in your own. Yeah. Cool. And, uh, about two years ago made I think pretty much international news where a couple was driving through here with their parents in the backseat and the guy and the girl got in a fight and this woman got out of the car and stormed around to the other side and Elian just leaped out of the bushes and grabbed her and dragged her away.

It’s horrible. It’s horrible. Right? Like, and there’s video of the entire thing. It’s on the internet. I mean, you know, it’s just, it’s really distressing, but that’s one thing you don’t do in a wild animal park is get out of the car when there are these animals roaming freely. And what do they do once they drive into the can this park?

And we’ve seen all these animals roaming for, as they all just casually get out of the car and throw Billy on the ground. All I could think about was that in the back of my mind, I’m like these people aren’t terribly smart. No, no,

again, rise. Neither is the plot. I love the film. So

Craig: yeah, so they, they leave in there at first. She doesn’t even know where he is, but eventually he is pursued in the most docile of ways by. A lion and

Todd: rotting after them.

Craig: And then like he climbs a tree and then there’s like a Panther and the tree. And so he jumps back down out of the tree and, uh, the lion attacks him and mauls him until, I guess like a park ranger or something shows up and, and fires his gun and, and gets the lion off.

But. You know, as is often the case for people who are attacked by lions, um, Michael is physically unharmed, but put into a coma,

Todd: right?

Craig: So he’s in a coma. And, uh, we see them in the hospital and Tammy and Byron, uh, are there visiting

Todd: Byron sits on uncle Bob. Here’s this guy sitting, sitting in a chair against the wall. Uh, who’s asleep. And Byron goes, Oh, what did I do? And she’s like, Oh, you sat on uncle Bob. It’s his only guardian. So we get this information that Michael is, you know, an orphan, I guess, or, um, his parents died and whatnot.

He is this, his only living relative uncle Bob doesn’t wake up after Byron jumps off, sits on him. But yeah,

Craig: he’s a drunk that’s the big joke is uncle Bob’s the town drunk or whatever, but unbeknownst to them, walking scene and Helga are also there at the hospital. Hunting for a brain, I guess. And they come in and hilariously fake Michael’s death, walking steam, like Helga held the messes with the machine to make it look like he flat lines and then walk and steam jumps on top of him, straddles him and starts doing fake PR.

Yeah.

well, that’s it. I’m sorry. I’m really sorry. I did all I could.

Both, both Tammy and Byron faint in, in four. And they wheel Michael out. Once they get him outside, he wakes up from his coma. It’s like, what’s going on? They knock him out again and take him back to there. Lab slash warehouse where the T Rex is. And then there’s the whole Labatt dummy scene. It’s just ridiculous.

I mean, the whole time. That I was watching this. I was thinking this was perfect fare for one of our favorite ladies night TV shows, uh, of the eighties up all night. Like it was just it’s slapstick, ridiculous comedy. Um, but this LA bottomy scene is so funny. Hilarious. They’ve got him on a gurney or whatever.

And the doctor walking and scene saws his head off and it’s some sheep, but reasonable, practical effects with the cutting and whatnot, but then they take his skull cap off. Walking scene starts poking electrodes into different parts of his brain and says, each part of the brain controls a different area is watch this any pokes, the brain and Paul Walker’s legs shoots up in the air.

And then he says on now watching these slide and he pokes it. A huge, huge fake Wiener pops up underneath his gown. And like,

Todd: Paul Walker’s gets like three foot boner.

Craig: Like he, he just keeps poking it. So it just like is popping up and down

Todd: and wiggling around

Craig: and walking seems like I have to remember that’s one 40 later, like, Oh, it’s so silly. And he puts the brain. In the T Rex. And I guess he says something like all full, all I’ll finish the procedure tomorrow or something like that.

Like it’s not supposed to be done. Everybody goes away the two lackeys, the big hulking one and the little Igor one, um, go off and like order a pizza. Uh, and when the pizza guy arrives, which by the way, did you recognize the little pizza guy? He was. He was Pedro from Napoleon dynamite. No kidding. You’re absolutely right.

Todd: Wow.

Craig: The guy comes in and, and the T Rex starts moving and it scares him and he runs away. And, um, there’s a little bit of comedy with the guys, you know, getting their pizza and whatnot, but then eventually the, the T Rex is awake and the little scientist, Bobby. Is like yelling at it, like telling it what to do or something I don’t remember, but then it lowers it, his head and bites his head off.

And this happens more than once. And it’s so funny because the actors have to stand. So still. For this and have the Tronic to be able to lower down right over it. Like they, they virtually have to jump into it. Yeah. Gingerly placed their heads inside so it can rip their heads off, but it does, it rips his head off and there’s blood and guts and all kinds of stuff.

And when the big guy comes back, The T-Rex I think chases him outside and then crushes them somehow.

Todd: Yeah. Steps on his chest.

Craig: Oh yeah. You stepped on him and totally crushed him. All I can remember is that sometime later in the movie, Helga and wa and a walk and scene, find this guy and hell could just rolls him up.

Yes. He’s just flat like a pig cake,

Todd: total site gag. And the way that the dinosaur walks is we get these shots from below up and we just see him gliding. Forward, like they’re pushing the animatronic along on a trolley and then we’ll get another close up shot of his legs, where there’s obviously somebody with, you know, dinosaur feet, just stomping forward, the rubber, you know, actually, yeah, I can, you can say the rubber might flex weird and stuff because it’s an animatronic.

So, you know, it’s just a rubber and over the outside, that’s the brilliance of the effects of this movie, right. They working with what they have. But then the T Rex scares an old lady away off of a payphone, goes up to the phone. You just see his head is there and you see these tiny little T-Rex arms, which

Craig: subtly

Todd: I have to have.

I must have grown. To be like four feet long to be able to do all of the things that are doing and

Craig: to be able to move

Todd: in the rapid and highly articulated way that the rest of the dinosaur cannot to be able to pick up the phone, dial the buttons, very casually. Call the girlfriend, Denise Richards, Tammy.

It’s so funny. Every scene where this dinosaur uses his hands, it’s just, there’s the dinosaur head and. Pink up pops, somebodies arm in a dinosaur claw glove who can then make hand signals and manipulate things and pick stuff up and do whatever in a very unconvincing way.

Craig: Right. Check for loose quarters in the slot of the payphone.

Todd: It’s so great.

Craig: It is great. And it calls Tammy, but it can’t talk cause it’s the T Rex. So instead it goes off to a party. Somebody is throwing a party. And for, for whatever reason, Tammy, even though her boyfriend just died that day is there, but she’s very, very upset,

Todd: not upset enough, but very upset.

Craig: Denise Richard sitting at a table with her arms crossed in a sour, look on her face, like.

She was, she was perfect. This might be her finest performance, frankly,

this and wild.

Todd: Meanwhile, Byron’s walking up like, Hey, cheer up, girl. It ain’t that bad.

Craig: Right. But Billy, he shows up and so she’s out of there. So, uh, she leaves. And then we see that the T-Rex is coming to the party. And I love, I mean, this is 94. What year did your acid part come out? Didn’t drastic park come out in 94.

Todd: Oh yeah. Or the year before? Yeah, I think it was 93.

Craig: And so they totally do the gag where you see, you know, like all the like red solo cups and all the other party cups sitting on a table, shaking. And people are like, what’s going on? Is it an earth? Meanwhile, some skank is, has gotten a hold of Billy and taken him off to a convertible where they have loud, loud sex with all of their clothes on

Todd: her legs are straight up in the air and that car is moving. The convertible is moving like you wouldn’t believe. And she is. Screaming, but they both have their clothes on. Uh, and then the T Rex comes over behind her, uh, above and her screaming just gets him more and more excited because her intensity level has, has arisen.

Craig: I’m good. Right? I’m good. Right.

Todd: Oh, but it comes down and bites her leg off, picks her up actually by the legs. Uh, and. Oh, throws her away. What happens to her?

Craig: Yes, she does. Or no, because later when the cops arrived, there’s a bunch of dead people, but one of the cops says, I thought we found a bunch of dead people and a one legged girl over there.

She’s still pretty hot though.

Billy runs away and runs into the party, uh, and the T Rex chases. And then there’s just. Carnage. Like, I don’t remember exactly how all it happens at some point point a weasel is peeing and sees that he’s peeing on the foot of the T Rex and the T Rex takes its, you know, little rubber hand and scratches him down.

The front of his torso, which totally dissembles him, all of his guts fall out all over, and then it chases it’s in the party and everybody’s screaming and running and it’s killing people. And eventually it. Bites Billy’s head off. Uh, again,

Todd: apprise me. I thought we’d see Billy through the whole movie causing trouble.

Craig: Yeah. But no, he’s gone. Um, but as it’s chasing people, one of the people is chasing is Byron and Byron trips and falls. And the two Rick’s picks him up. Sets him back down on his feet, brushes off his jacket and lets him go on his way.

Todd: It was a nice touch.

Craig: So, so later, so later Byron’s like, I knew that she wrecks knew me.

Oh gosh,

Todd: this little T-Rex hands gingerly brushing the dust off of his shoulder was a really nice touch.

Craig: So funny God. The, the cops show up and, and start trying to question people, but like, and the chief of police, um, turns out to be. Byron’s dad, I think, but, uh, buck flowers and the other guy are still there too.

And, uh, the chief is trying to ask people questions, but they’re not getting any answers. And I’m pretty sure was buck flowers. She says, they’re in shock. You’re going to have to slap it out of them.

These wines. They, they, I wrote them down because I thought they were so funny. And now here I am saying it and they sound so stupid and they are stupid, but you have to see this movie to really get the humor. I mean, take our word for it if you want, but really watch this movie. It’s really funny back to Helga and walking Steen who are excited because even though the T Rex wasn’t supposed to have been activated yet, it proves that it works.

Um, so they’re all excited about that. Then the T-Rex goes to, uh, Tammy’s house and she’s just casually, like, I don’t know, brushing her hair or something.

Todd: Her bedroom.

Craig: Yeah. When, when she sees it, either in the mirror, she turns around and sees it or wherever she screams and passes out again. And her parents hear her screaming go to check on her, but she’s gone.

And it looks like she’s gone out the window. Like the curtains are blowing out the window or something. She wakes up in a barn and that T-Rex is there with her. We keep saying T-Rex, it’s probably what, like maybe 10 feet tall. Like it’s not, it’s not as torment.

Todd: It’s big, but not that tall, I guess, big enough to reach into the second story of a house.

Ooh, maybe not actually

Craig: not really with its arms. No. Maybe with its head

Todd: 10 foot tall T-Rex to be able to just apparently walk around town without being seen. It’s kind of funny walk down. The suburban neighborhood pulled her out of the window, took her back to some remote barn and nobody reported it.

Okay.

Craig: And this scene is hilarious too, because. Denise Richards plays it straight. Like at first she’s she’s scared, but then when it’s seems pretty obvious that it’s not trying to hurt her, then she like just goes along with trying to communicate with it. And there’s this whole scene. It’s trying to explain that it’s Michael and it plays charades.

Yeah. And, and then somehow it has a flower and it eats the flower and it points to her bracelet. And so finally she figures out that it’s hint. And once she figures out that it’s him, she’s totally fine with it. And in love with him.

Todd: Yes. It’s basically like we have a scene later where she is. Laying down with the dinosaurs arms wrapped around hers.

And they’re both taking a nap. I mean, it’s really pretty funny. I was thinking actually, shades of you remember a long time ago was a deadly friend. When the guy puts the brain, the girl’s brain of this girlfriend who dies into another girl, was that right? A corpse. Or whatever the robot, it

Craig: was, it was Kristy Swanson.

And

Todd: they end up in the barn.

Craig: I don’t remember. It’s been a long time.

Todd: Gosh, it was so funny. Some of these scenes were just like it too. Cause like they ended up in the barn and they kind of like passionately embrace and they lay down and they wake up the next morning and all this stuff I was like, except in this case, one was a giant animatronic, dinosaur.

Minor, minor difference.

Craig: Well, she goes home and her parents are there with the cops outside and she’s just strolls up and she’s like, hi daddy. And he’s like, where have you been? And she was like, what happened? She’s like, I don’t know. It must’ve been a meteor or something.

Went out to see what, if I could find it or something like that. She tells Byron and she says, we have to get his body back. We can do it at the funeral. So then we cut to the funeral, which is just like, it looks like it’s in like a parking lot or something. It’s got all these fake prop, like cardboard tombstones.

She is dressed like. Six from blossom or like, like the lead singer of four non blondes in the what’s up video. It’s so funny.

Todd: They’re just standing around and there’s a giant Bush there and behind the giant Bush, apparently we’re only, she can see it. The dinosaurs is bulking over the top. Watching his own funeral

Craig: and I’m drunk, drunk.

Uncle Bob gives a eulogy. Everybody’s crying, including the T Rex, like tears are streaming down his face.

Todd: When did we get this ability? Yeah. So funny. This is my favorite. See, cause after it’s all gone, the dyno comes out and surprise. Byron I think is the first time he sees it, but she is like, I can’t believe I’m going to do this, but we need to, and she jumps into the grave.

Because I guess her idea is that they’re going to try to get Michael’s body out of there and get the brain back into his body. Was that within this thinking. So she opens, she opens the coffin and goes because Michael’s body is half decomposed, rats all over it.

Craig: Maggots. Yeah.

Todd: Like what was she expecting to see?

I just thought this was a, this was hilarious. Like, this is a brilliant idea. Like, you know, it’s such a movie thing. Like, Oh, this person just died. We’re going to open the coffin and we’re going to embrace their body one more time. I love that.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And somehow Helga shows up and they have a girl fight, which was funny.

Right. Tammy, I guess after she fights Helga, I don’t know. I’m trying to follow my notes again. Hell guns. Get me fight. And then Tammy says to, uh, Michael, we’re going to find you another body. I promise. So Tammy and Byron go to the morgue where they just start looking around, like shopping for bodies and they find one hot guy.

And Byron’s like, what about this? This one? And he lifts up the blanket and she’s like, eh, yeah, he’s okay. Then Byron lifts it up further and she gifts. Like she doesn’t like it’s Dick. Like, Ooh, no, not for me. Um, but then the TRX is outside. So they start pulling all these corpses up to the window. So for like, it’s a for Michael’s approval, but he keeps not approving.

And at one point Byron lifts a girl up there. And Tammy’s like, no, I don’t want a girl. I want a boy by her. And it’s like, well, it’s not really up to you. Yeah.

Uh, but they’re interrupted in that because Helga and walk and Steen try to steal the T Rex is in the back of this big truck and they try to steal it, I think. And so. Uh, Tammy and Byron have to run out there. And I think that the police are out there and somehow Tammy and Byron ended up in the truck and they take off and the police start chasing them.

And by her and says, hang onto your boobs girl, it’s going to be a bumpy ride. And Denise Richard grabs her.

Oh, it’s the silliest thing. It’s so funny. It’s just ridiculous. Um, there’s a little car chase, Byron. They pull over and Byron gets out and tries to stall, but, uh, he gets handcuffed and that’s when we get the amazing shot of Tammy riding the T Rex. And then it all kind of comes to a head the next morning.

They go back to their same barn that they were at before. And that’s when you see them waking up in the morning, like spooning, like the T Rex is spooning and, and Byron comes there. Yeah. He knows to go there because that’s, she, Tammy had told them that’s where they went last time. But unbeknownst to him, he’s been followed by the police and walk and Steen and Helga show up.

And that’s kind of where the final, I suppose, showdown happens. And the whole time I was. Looking at the time, not because I was bored, I was not at all bored watching this movie, but I realized there were still like 10 or 15 minutes left. And like, what. Are they going to do this last scene? Just kind of stretched out for awhile, but, uh, it was funny nonetheless showdown at the barn.

Aye. Aye. I don’t remember. I think she, she shouts out to the cops, leave him alone. He’s my boyfriend.

Todd: Byron’s like. Uh, gimme something white. It seems like I don’t have anything. Like, he’s like, Oh, I know you do. And then the next shot is they come stepping out of the barn and he’s got, I guess, her bra, uh, that he’s waving on his stick. And they’re like, Oh, well, we’re not surrendering. We’ve come to negotiate.

And there ain’t going to be no negotiation and all this stuff. Anyway, uh, the doctor has tried to convince the cops that he’s going, he can go in and shoot it with a tranquilizer. And at this moment, I’m thinking, what good is that going to do? It’s animatronic. And at that point, the doctors, the, I think maybe Byron speaks up and says, what good’s that going to do?

He’s not a real dinosaur he’s animatronic. And the cops are like, Oh, yeah. And the doctor comes up with some bullshit explanation. Like it’s a new system

Craig: brand new. It’s very secretive, but under the circumstances, I suppose I have no alternative. You see the dinosaur as a new memory system, a new computer created by growing thinking, crystals into memory cells.

It’s very much letting them indeed. In fact, it is so new that, I mean, we are hoping that it will put America back on top.

Todd: And the two rednecky cops look at each other and go, okay, I approve of that. He pulls out a gun to a tranquilizer gun. That’s massive.

Craig: Relax. This is a tranquilizer gun I know in the spring, but they don’t make small tranquilizer gun

Todd: going to Sue.

Then he walks in, but does not succeed because of course he gets attacked by Michael. Who very quickly takes a huge bite out of the doctor’s chest and he falls backwards on Helga runs up. And did she get it too? Or did she get away?

Craig: I don’t remember. I think she gets away, but first the T-Rex Spitz, walking, Steans guts all over her guts out.

Right.

Todd: And then she runs away and then the cops all opened fire on the dinosaur

Craig: and he goes down because shooting animatronic animals kills them, I guess. Um, And Tammy falls to the floor, caresses the dead dinosaur and weeks. Yeah. You think that’s it. But no. Then it opens up back at her house and it’s daytime again.

And. She very happily trots up to her house and greets her dad and goes inside. Her parents are like, I’m a little bit concerned about her having him up there like that. And I was thinking what, but she goes, she goes, yeah, so stairs and she starts talking and then you hear Michael talking to her and. She has his brain in a bowl, hooked up to her computer and to a video camera.

And apparently he can yeah. Talk to her through the computer and he can see her through the camera. And she’s like, Hey baby, how are you? Does baby? What a tree? She says something about, I heard they found some frozen skiers. I’m going to check into that later, but then she does a strip tease for him and he’s like, Oh yeah.

Oh baby. Oh, Sparks shoot out the computer.

And that’s the end.

Todd: I got really excited there for a bit. Cause I thought, you know, neath Richards was going to do like a full on like Elvira at the end of a mistress of the dark or something. Oh my gosh. Am I about to witness it? Richard’s first nude scene. No, but she takes off her skirt and that’s enough to send this guy into convulsions.

Craig: So she’s got some like sexy lingerie on I’ll do it or a little dance. It’s awful

Todd: trying her best. Oh God, not her talent.

Craig: So funny. Uh, I can only imagine that anybody listening, who’s not seeing this movie must just, it has to sound like the most awful thing in the world, but it’s really not. It’s it’s not to be fair.

It’s completely juvenile and stupid. But it totally speaks to the 14 year old boy in me. And I just enjoyed it so much. It was, it was fun and I laughed and laughed and yeah, there, there was the blood and Gore. Um, and that’s great. Of course I, you know, I love that stuff, but this, uh, You know, you and I haven’t talked about it a lot on here because I think we don’t want to bum people out, but it’s kinda not the best of times.

And, um, uh, uh, you know, emotions are high and, and we’re all kind of stuck at home for the most part. And there’s all kinds of shit going on in the world. And so just to be able to sit down for an hour and a half and just look at something stupid and just laugh and not. Have to worry about the stuff that’s going on in the world.

It was a really nice reprieve and frankly, I, I need it this week. And, uh, I would, I would whole heartedly recommend this movie to horror fans, to, to screwball comedy fans. Um, even just people who are interested in, you know, oddities. I just had so much fun with it.

Todd: This is a goofy movie in the Mel Brooks vein, right.

It knew it was funny. It was playing it all totally up for laughs got a little bit of trauma in there with sort of the comedy mixed with the extreme Gore and the blood. I think that that balance still works for me. I mean, it’s just adds to the fun. I think it adds to the overt, the top ness of it because these Gore effects are none of it.

Played seriously, you know, it’s all completely over the top. It’s all hilariously rubber and over the top, but it’s fun. It works actually that dichotomy works and we’d be remiss if we didn’t say a few more things about the director of this movie, because he. Says that he’s the guy who people call when they have a project like this.

Like they need a writer and a director who can come in on some tax evasion movie scheme, which he said this basically was and quickly write something up and quickly shoot it and make it fun and entertaining. And he even he’s done the ice pirates. Have you ever seen that one? That is a hilarious, goofy movie kind of Saifai that he came in and, and ended up doctoring up, but.

He did mannequin on the move, you know, the second one Mac and me, which is just kind of like this movie, you know, just super, still silly corny, but has a strong appeal, I think for kids. But then he also did the Philadelphia experiment, which is a kind of well-respected science and science fiction.

Thriller. And he gets all of his, most of his rituals. He says from having written passenger 57, the Wesley Snipes, a thriller, at least he wrote the first draft of it. And he apparently still makes a ton of money. Yeah. Wow. So, I mean, this guy knew what he was doing delivered. I think in spades on the job he was given somehow managed to make this, uh, Animatronic dinosaur that he had for two weeks into a full on film that is fun and entertaining to watch.

Uh, I enjoyed it. I loved every minute of it. And you’re right. This is exactly the kind of levity that we need right now. So yeah, absolutely

Craig: good. I didn’t, I didn’t know if you would like it or not. I, I actually kind of picked it as revenge. Oh no, I didn’t think you turned out and I really am. Glad that you enjoyed it.

I, as soon as I got into it, I thought that it was right up our alley. So I’m glad you enjoyed it. Fun. All right. Well, anyway, thank you for listening to another episode of two guys in the chainsaw. If you enjoyed this podcast, please tell a friend, we would love to get some more listeners. And if you have any opinions about this movie or any of the others that we’ve done, and you’d like to.

With us, uh, drop us a note on Facebook, on our website. We love to hear from you guys, and we really try to respond to everybody who, uh, gets in touch with us. Uh, you can find our podcast all over the place, just people, two guys, and a chainsaw podcast, and we will be back, uh, sometime in the near future with a brand new movie for you.

So until then I’m Craig and I’m Todd with two guys and a chainsaw.

Every now and then, it’s time for an exploitation grindhouse classic, and Pieces checks all the boxes. It even has a few actors we are familiar with, and some truly laugh-out-loud moments along with a moment or two of accidental brilliance. See it with friends, and listen to us pull it apart and put it back together.

Pieces (1982)

Episode 227, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of two guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig.

Todd: All right. Today, we were looking for something a little more old school, a little sillier. Ah, okay. I was, I wanted something a little grindhouse that we could make fun of, but something that I had been wanting to see for a long time.

This is one of those movies that I pass by on the shelf in the horror section of the video store, a lot was entranced by the title. And the title of this movie is called Pieces from 1982. And the tagline I think is. It’s exactly what you think it is and, uh, box art for it. It has a chainsaw and a bunch of body parts on it.

It was one of these early eighties, late seventies, slasher movies that, uh, I was just in the mood for this week. So I proposed to Craig. I will take the blame and, uh, we watched it. I hadn’t seen it before. How about you, Craig?

Craig: Nope. I never even heard of it. I don’t think

Todd: really. You’d never saw this on the shelves.

Craig: I don’t think so. Not that I remember anyway.

Todd: Okay. Well, fair enough. This movie was produced by a pretty notorious producer of exploitation films. Dick Randall. Uh, this guy started out in the early sixties, uh, making movies like King of Kong Island. Let it All Hang Out, Playgirl 70, Mondo Inferno, the Cotton Picking Chicken Pickers, which maybe we should put that on a list for the future.

I don’t, I don’t think it’s horror, but it sounds interesting. So a lot of these sort of sexy sex exploitation films, and then seem to. Transition a little bit into horror with movies, like a Frankenstein’s Castle of Freaks, Crocodile, which sounds like a takeoff of Alligator when we watched it, uh, that was produced in 79.

Oh dude. I’m, I’m looking at some of these titles and they’re fantastic. The Erotic Adventures of Robinson Crusoe… Anyway, and probably some movies that we’re going to be doing. Sometime in the future, he did a movie in 1984 called Don’t Open ‘Till Christmas, a 1986 movie called Slaughter High. I think he wrote the story for this, or came up with a concept which is not highbrow concept.

It’s a killer with a chainsaw, runs around a university campus and murders people, and then enlisted the help of a Spanish director named John P CAIR Simone. And he has also done a fair number of, uh, exploitation films. One of which, again, I think we’re going to come back to at some point called slug.

This was one of, one of the movies he made. He only made like about 20 films, which is more than I’ve made. Um, and, uh, this movie is listed on IMDB as a Spanish, uh, Italian production, because it was primarily filmed in Madrid. Spain. It says it was filmed in Madrid and Boston, or at least some exteriors were filmed in Boston, but then there’s some conflicting information that says actually almost none of it was filmed in Boston because they really had no money.

And they just pulled in some exterior shots from somewhere else. The fact that they had no money, this is a cheapo exploitation. Grindhouse kind of film really shows. I was really happy to see that our favorite, uh, track coach.

Craig: Yes

Todd: from Graduation Day was in it. And, and honestly he made it the movie for me.

I love watching this guy perform his name,

Craig: Christopher George,

Todd: and he plays the lieutenant police detective, whatever, in this movie who who’s charged with solving the crime and does a really shitty job of it. For most of it chews up a lot of scenery, has a very furrowed brow, uh, barks orders around.

People in generally it looks like he’s in control. Despite it, I started it a little too late at night and I stopped it after about an hour. So I’m going to have to come back to this in the morning, finished it off for the last half hour and then was like, you know, I feel like I want to go back and rewatch at least some highlights from earlier in the movie.

And I have to say that when I went back and rewatch some of the earlier scenes. Having kind of understood what I was getting into and how the end result would be. I found it kind of fun. Uh, that’s kinda my take on it. It’s it’s stupid. It’s really stupid. It’s super sleazy. If you search us online and look up reviews, the word misogynistic shows up a ton and it’s absolutely shamelessly.

Misogynistic, lots of boobs, lots of Gore, uh, lots of girls being murdered. Uh, and then the premise of the whole film is a bit like psycho, this kid, uh, it starts out early in Boston, 1942. I believe it’s supposed to be a very unconvincing 1942, but anyway, yeah. He’s putting together a racy jigsaw puzzle in his bedroom of a naked woman.

And his mother comes in. She’s really upset, kicks the puzzle over. And, uh, I don’t know, you know, if my mom, well, my mom found me with a Playboy magazine. Once I have to say I was more embarrassed than motivated to pick up an ax and murder her, but that’s what the kid in this film does. He chops her up. The police come.

And find blood all over the room and all over this jigsaw puzzle. Mom’s head is in one of the closets and the kid is cowering crying. And one of the other closets and this being 1942, uh, they don’t think that the kid actually did it. So, um, we jumped to present day 1982, where obviously the question hangs over the entire movie who was that kid?

Who’s grown up to be now a murderer, a psychopath. That’s the premise. So this is, this is the movie. This is what we’re, what we’re, what we’re stuck with is what we’re going to talk about. But I have to say before I turn over to you, Craig, for a little more insight, that it’s nice to every now and then review a chainsaw killer movie.

There really aren’t as many chainsaw killer movies, as you would think. In the horror genre, and this is most definitely one of the most chainsaw, horror movies I’ve ever seen

Craig: for what it’s worth. Yup. It sure is.

Todd: I’m trying to think of nice things to say.

Craig: Yeah, no. I mean, when I finished watching it, I was like, Yeah.

I mean, I texted you right away because it was bad, but having slept on it now, I’m kind of trying to look back at it and see it as. I’m trying to find the charm in it, because I think that there is charm in this movie and that might be evidenced by the fact that when the movie came out, the company that was releasing, it was really skeptical.

And one of the producers

Todd: told.

Craig: Whoever was in charge of the production company, go see it with an audience. And he did. And I guess the audience response was really positive, largely because they were laughing at it so much that it inspired a little bit of confidence. And I can kind of see that it’s really not a horror comedy, but it’s one of those that unintentionally funny.

It is. It is funny. I mean, it’s, it’s a silly premise. This guy who liked to put together. Puzzles of like a new lady. It’s cute. You know, it’s, it’s almost like the puzzle that he puts together, which he puts together periodically throughout

Todd: the movie.

Craig: It’s just like a classic pinup, you know, it’s, it’s the.

Naked lady with her arms above her head and her back arched. And of course she’s fully nude and the premise becomes that, I guess, because he’s crazy.

Todd: I don’t know. He’s crazy about puzzles, I guess. Yeah. He’s crazy about

Craig: puzzles and, uh, he grows up to become the psycho killer who throughout the course of the movie kills these women, I guess, with the.

Goal of kind of creating his own jigsaw puzzle. Like he kills them, but then he only takes certain parts of their body. And if it’s not a parent throughout the course of the movie, that that’s what he’s doing. You get the payoff at the end to see that he’s actually kind of been constructing. I don’t know what you would call it.

I don’t know.

Todd: I don’t know what it is.

Craig: Purpose, uh, you know, I don’t, I don’t know if it’s an artistic purpose or wants to bone it. I don’t know.

It’s cute.

Todd: It’s not even readily apparent throughout the movie that this is what’s happening. I mean, that’s kind of, one of the criticisms I have is that we don’t see it. It’s not like silence of the lambs, you know, it’s not like we don’t say. We see a lot of insert shots of the killer. It, this is very Harry Jolo inspired.

This movie is like a American produced Spanish made Jolo wannabe right down to the killer with the black gloves and the dark overcoat. Yes, the scenes every now and then, I mean, it cuts right into it. I think right after we jumped to present day, you get this shot of the killer with the black gloves, opening up the drawer and pulling out all of his little bits of memorabilia and assembling them.

And one of those things is the puzzle and a knife and a picture of a woman with exed out. I mean, how many times, right. Even graduation day, uh, was like this, right?

Craig: So

Todd: it’s very heavily, Jolo inspired. And actually I thought, um, the soundtrack as well, There were times, you know, it has this very, at times that’s very minimalist score.

That’s just a stumping. Like

when it breaks out into the insanity of some of these killings, you know, it becomes the full on rock.

type score that we see. And just, let’s clear, they’re trying for this at the same time, the killer, when you see them and you see them a lot in shadow to the point where it’s hilariously cliche, it’s really funny.

Craig: In fact, like it is, is very Jolo. Now I read that they didn’t in fact base the figure of the guy on giallo.

It was actually based on the comic book, character, the shadow, but like that. Yeah, exactly what it is. It’s. Just the completely black silhouette of a man, presumably in a hat and like a collared like trench coat. Yeah. Like it, and you see it so often. And I have no idea. I can only imagine that it was an actor, you know, in this ensemble, but they could have just as easily used a cardboard cutout and just like.

Popped it up front of

there’s a little

lighting left and right. And you see it all the time.

Todd: It’s very the shadow though. They get the look down the down, Pat to the scarf around the neck and everything. Yeah, for sure.

Craig: It’s it’s really, really funny. And I, I, it doesn’t seem like they meant it to be like, it seems,

Todd: I don’t

Craig: know, maybe I’m wrong.

Maybe they were in on the joke, but it really just, they, it it’s played so straight forward, but every time, you know, like this killer stocks, people, women, Only around all the time. And you just see that silhouette in the window, like leering, I mean, you assume it’s wearing, it’s literally just a black silhouette all the time and it just because it happens so frequently, it just becomes hilarious.

Todd: It’s so true.

Craig: My favorite. Part of this movie is just, there is a linear narrative that you can follow, but also just the most random things happen, like in the very beginning. Okay. So we see the kid kill his mother and then he finishes his puzzle. And then 40 years later he pulls out the puzzle box has his mother’s clothes and his mother’s shoes.

All bloody and his puzzle that he was putting together all bloody too. Like, did he ask to keep those things when he was a kid? Like now, since he’s still happy to make any sense

Todd: and

Craig: yes, there’s a picture of his mom in the box, which is clearly a Hollywood headshot, obviously not from 1940,

Todd: 1940s, no way.

Craig: No, but then the very next thing we see is just this girls skateboarding, like through a college campus. And I have no idea who she is and for no apparent reason, it’s just like they wanted to do this scene.

She’s not a character movie as far as I remember, but this just, this girl she’s like super happy and she’s on this little, like 1980s, tiny little skateboard, and she’s waving at people and you know, it’s all fun. And then all of a sudden, Two workers carry an enormous mirror, walk out right in front of her and she crashes through the mirror and that’s it.

It has nothing to do with the plot of the movie. You have no light it’s. You just see it happen and then it’s over. And the movie carries on and there are several parts like that in this movie. I just thought it was, Oh, it was hilarious. Is

Todd: hilarious. And I had read that there were a couple shots that came from a different movie that they were working on.

Like some superhero movie. And I wonder if that was one of them that was inserted. I mean, it’s like the idea was that they were trying to set the scene of the college campus and the college kids. Like now we’re in 1982 and here are all the hi-jinks happening on campus, but it’s just this one scene and that’s it with a character you never see.

Any other time in the movie and it cuts immediately to this girl who’s laying down in studying, like in the middle of the quad in the middle of the day

Craig: in the middle of the day

Todd: must be sad and there’s. A sound of a chainsaw that startles her from behind and she looks up and there’s somebody trimming the bushes with a chainsaw, but he’s very, you know, bound up tights, got these goggles on the hat, a scarf.

Like you have no idea who that person is. And even speaks up and says, Oh, I’ll just be a minute. She was like, Oh, okay. She turns around. And suddenly he steps out in front of her and cuts off her head with the chainsaw.

Craig: In the middle of the middle of the day.

I couldn’t even tell, like, I couldn’t tell if the guy who was trimming the trees was the same guy with the chainsaw because when she talks to him, he’s up in the tree behind her and then seconds later he’s approaching her from the front. So I didn’t know if like the tree trimmer, like. Witnessed this happen.

And then I feel like at some point they introduce like a landscaper who’s working there, who I assumed from the beginning was a red herring, because it was so obvious. His name was Willard played by Paul Smith who was brutal. Brutal. I think that was in Popeye and Bluto. That’s right. And he was also in haunted honeymoon and he’s set up what I thought as this big red herring.

But if I remember correctly, he wasn’t even the same guy who was trimming the trees. No, I don’t know. It’s it’s, it’s a mess. Really. It’s thinking back on it now. It’s kind of funny.

Todd: It

Craig: is. So then after this girl gets killed, then of course, you know, there has to be an investigation. So you bring in the cops and you’ve got Lieutenant Bracken who we’ve already mentioned, Christopher George, who we saw on graduation day.

He was also in city of the living dead. Didn’t we do that.

Todd: Yes, we did. He was the detective in that too.

Craig: Oh, well, Well, yeah, and he’s got a partner or whatever, and they’re investigating, I swear. It’s just these parts that have really nothing to do with the movie that are my favorite parts. Like. So they introduced us to the cops and we find out the cops are investigating or whatever, but then they cut to a scene of these kids.

Is this a college? It’s a college, right?

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: This group of kids in the hallway of a building, smoking a joint. Not look, I went to college. Okay. I may, I smoked a Dubar too in my day. Been certainly not in the hallway of a building right outside of an office where the police are

but favorite, like these kids are just talking and. They say something about how, like the gym just installed a water bed, why wouldn’t a gym, install, a water bed?

What kind of activities are they doing in their gym

Todd: for some of the water therapy or something? Craig, you know, you didn’t live in. Well, you were around in this time, but you weren’t old enough to know what was going on. And I don’t know. So I think I

Craig: want to join that gym now. Thank

Todd: you said before you had a water bed, it was not all as cracked up to be.

Maybe it’s better as therapy,

Craig: right? It did. It was not, but, but that was my, uh, one of my favorite lines. Like I literally paused the movie several times to write down lines. Cause they were so funny. Like they’re sitting there smoking a joint and. I assumed that this sexy girl was going to be like an important part of the cast.

No, she, I don’t think she ever shows up again, but that somebody says something about the waterbed and this girl takes a puff off the joy. It says the most beautiful thing in the world is smoking pot. King on a water bed.

Oh God. Yeah in college. I did both of those things, but never at the same

Todd: time

Craig: you might get out, messed up, missed out.

Todd: Totally.

Craig: I missed out. Beautiful.

Todd: Oh man. It’s hilarious. Well, they interrogate people and they get together with the Dean. And I don’t think we ever hear him learn his name. He’s just the Dean and the Lieutenant decides to bring in an undercover investigator disguised as the tennis coach,

Craig: Mary, I think,

Todd: Oh, well he doesn’t bring her in just yet.

Right. She gets a knower of the campus grounds

Craig: from professor Brown. Oh God. Like this movie. It’s it’s one of the. I have never seen a movie tries so hard to introduce so many suspects. Like they go out of their way to try to throw suspicion on so many people it’s really dumb because ultimately I knew who the killer was.

30 minutes in, like it was. Really obvious. Um, but they introduced this professor, professor Brown. It ends up being a big deal that he’s gay.

Todd: It’s his affliction. Remember?

Craig: Shit. It doesn’t have anything to do with me.

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: Funny. And he’s in charge of the anatomy department. Is there even such a thing as an anatomy department?

Todd: It’s a whole department devoted to it? No, maybe a class or two,

Craig: yeah. Class or two. Right. But they ask him to help in the investigation.

Just like they ask anybody who they randomly bump into on the street. To help in this investigation. Like every person that the detectives encounter, they’re like, okay, we’re going to bring you in. And you’re going to help us,

Todd: everybody because of Willard. Cause he’s too shady.

Craig: Right. And so they introduced gay mr. Brown and then Willard, who’s the big guy. And like, he just. They had to have just directed him, like just crazy and menacing as you possibly can. It’s beyond the silly and like, uh, I don’t even remember who goes and talks to them if it’s mr.

Brown or the investigators or whatever, but no, it’s the Dean talks to him. Like he’s the landscaper that. Only uses a chainsaw in his landscaping and the Dean is like, you finish up your job so you can move on or whatever. And he’s like, okay. And then there’s just a random shot of Willard. Seeing some kids walking in the middle of the day in the middle of the quad, like what college is.

Yes.

Went to the wrong. School, but even a God,

Todd: if you need to murder someone, this is the perfect college to do it in. Absolutely anything can happen at any time. It will go completely unnoticed. The primary weapon is a chainsaw. Chainsaws are not quiet and they’re not easy to conceal you. Can’t put them under your clothing, but this murderer successfully runs around with the chainsaw killing people sometimes just.

Hmm. I dunno, rooms away from where others are. You know, the movie’s not concerned with making a lot of sense, for sure. I think that, uh, after this, we are in the library and this is where we get introduced

Craig: to set up for the first killing. Yeah. Yeah.

Todd: We get introduced to Kendall. And so Kendall is sitting in the library and there’s a cute girl sitting in front of her, of him. And she kind of smiles at him as when she passes him a note and she stands up and walks out and goes to the pool.

Craig: Right, right, right. But the note says,

Todd: and suddenly it’s nighttime

Craig: then suddenly it’s nighttime.

Todd: Yes,

Craig: absolutely. At the pool, but not another place. I think it’s just nighttime. Cool, but this, this, this girl she’s super pretty. And she passes this guy. Then a note that says, I want to do it in the water. See you in the pool. But Kendall, who really is one of the main characters of this movie. I swear to God the actor that plays him in any other movie.

Would have been the nerd, but in this movie, he is a sex. God can not stop throwing themselves at

Todd: like women, young women.

Craig: This kid is getting tail like four or five times a day. Like he will leave one girl and bump into another girl and they will be doing it like three seconds later. And I’m exaggerating, but.

That seems to be the implication. They even talk about it. Wow. He just can’t keep up.

Todd: Oh, it’s hilarious. All of this

Craig: with office’s ass that he’s scared. So later on

Todd: mentioned about how he knows everybody on campus, like yeah. Cause he’s boned them all.

Craig: Okay.

Todd: So it turns out it was good that he was randomly there for the cops to bring into the investigation.

For sure.

Craig: The whole thing with the notes confused me.

Todd: I don’t understand.

Craig: He gets the note and then he throws it. Towards the trash came and lands on the ground and then the killer picks it up. But then there’s a whole other deal with notes. Like I don’t, so we don’t, we don’t hear about it yet. First we see this beautiful girl at the pool waiting for Kendall and she strips naked mostly and jumps in the pool, which I read.

They filmed this in the middle of the winter and she nearly froze to death filming this scene. But she just swims around in the pool. Again, something else that I don’t understand about this movie, this killer can walk around with the chainsaw mere feet away from people, but they don’t see as though he’s invisible.

Todd: He’s the shadow. He has the power to cloud men’s minds.

Craig: This girl is swimming in the pool and this, the shadow guy is like creeping up with the chainsaw. She turns around three 60 in the pool looking around. Several times, but never sees them. But eventually only he, he fishes her out. Yeah. With the pool net. Yeah. Which almost kills her disables, her, like he pulls her out of the pool and because he’s been poking her at the pool net, like he can barely move.

So she just lakes there. Chops are up

Todd: with the shades. Yeah. So leering.

Craig: She has great boobs though.

Todd: She has. Oh, that was all I was thinking about. Plus you can tell it was cold in there. Uh, I mean really great boobs in this whole movie, honestly like a lot of TNA.

Craig: Yeah, yeah. Lots.

Todd: And it liers on it. The male gaze is strong in this movie.

Anyway, he goes over and he cuts at her and we don’t get to see. The closeups or anything of this particular thing, we see the aftermath, which is when the cops are in there and they’ve called him the anatomy professor to give his opinion about it. There is a bag of full of body parts sitting there. They have a gurney that I guess they put more body parts on and the chainsaw is sitting right there.

And in one of the most awkwardly filmed scenes I’ve ever seen, the professor bends down, looks at the bag. Looks over at some body part on the gurney touches the chainsaw and the cops go, no, no, no, don’t do that. You could have destroyed the evidence. And he goes, Oh, I’m sorry. Long pause stands up, looks around and says, well, I’m not a pathologist, but even a lay man concede was

Craig: done with this.

Todd: I’d say it’s elementary.

Craig: Okay. Thanks. Thank you very much. That’ll be all. You’re welcome. Yeah.

Todd: Right.

Craig: No, somebody probably just planted this chainsaw here to throw us off.

Todd: And I guess. They don’t confiscate the chainsaw and take it back to the police station because either the killer has a lot of chainsaws on hand or he’s able to get this thing back.

Craig: Well, there was also a scene that was totally incomprehensible to me. So Kendall, apparently didn’t go. To have sex with the girl in the pool.

Instead, he just hung out in the library, but then his nerdy friend brought him another or note. And I don’t even know what that note said. Somehow it got passed over the Dean’s desk and then got to him. And then they say later, like it was supposed to distract him from going to the pool. Like the killer must have planted it.

To keep you from going to the pool or whatever. It doesn’t make any sense, but right after he gets that note, we see this really weird scene where Willard, the big scary guy walks into the pool area, finds Kendall hiding there with the body. And then all of a sudden, all of the cops are there.

Todd: Yes,

Craig: they arrest Willard, I guess we don’t even really see it, but then they continue on with the investigation, like as though they caught Willard red handed, but they’re just not really sure if that’s the killer, which of course it turns out that it’s not that it was, I was so confused.

I thought that I, I had missed something or that the movie was. Oh weird. I have no idea what was going on there.

Todd: Well, it’s almost like this scene was supposed to happen before the scene where they talk about the body. Right? Was it the same girl? Different girl?

Craig: No, it was the same girl. I think that that did happen.

That was right before they were investigating the body, but nonetheless, it was all very confusing and it, yeah. I just didn’t understand why it’s. It seemed like, Oh, we caught Willard red handed and they arrest him and take him to jail, but then they just continue on

Todd: and then later he’s free. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. But you know, he, he, he does, uh, Pretty good job of beating off like three or four cops who were jumping him like bare handed with his fists. That’s pretty exciting fight scene. Widen that.

Craig: Listen to why

it’s not that kind of movie.

Todd: It’s almost

Craig: close, but not quite. Yeah. Ooh. Okay. Right. So they examined the chainsaw. I’m like going through my notes. Okay. So then that’s when the cops say that they want to bring in two undercover women, which I, they say that, but then later they’re like, Oh, well we could really only get one.

Okay. Well, great, great writing. And then the killer watches, some people doing aerobics and then the cops take Kindle to a psychologist. Most random shit. I have no idea what’s going on half

Todd: the time. Yeah. And then there’s a, an undercover. Is this about the time that the

Craig: reporters, when they bring in the girl that you were talking about before Mary Riggs, who was played by Lynda day, George, who was in the original mission, impossible television series.

And in this movie, She’s a tennis pro by day and a detective by night.

Todd: Apparently nobody in this movie could actually play tennis, even though most of the characters do. So they had to bring in a tennis coach to show them a few moves. I don’t think it made much of a difference to be honest.

Craig: No,

Todd: I love this scene. Two of them playing tennis, which is just two people. Playing tennis, but there’s stuff coming over the loudspeaker.

Like it’s supposed to be a big game with like a big crowd and there’s an announcer, but the only shot we get of the crowd, it’s about a dozen people lined up on a fence, looking down on this game with their heads moving left, then. Right.

Craig: And they couldn’t even do that. Like, there was one point where like, it’s like their heads were supposed to be following the ball, but there was one part where like half of them were watching it go one way and half of them were watching it go the other way.

They couldn’t even get that sinked up. It was pretty, it was pretty cool. Sure was the detective like enlist this lady, but while he’s enlisting her, like she just happens to work in his office or whatever, but then Kendall comes into and the detective is spilling all this information about how this woman’s going to be working under cover.

And she’s like, well, thanks for blowing my cover with him. And he’s like, no, he’s helping us with the investigation. I’d stake my life on him.

College kid that you just met yesterday. I know he’s like your most trusted confidant.

Todd: Huh? Okay. It’s so weird. And later on, he tries to get it with her too. And almost does, there was supposed to be a sexy between them that was written in. And I think it was the actress who kind of talked them out of it.

And said that’s a little silly and that’s what led to the scene where he tries to invite himself into her apartment after dropping her off. And she he’s like, don’t you want to meet me coffee? And she says, Hmm. Um, another time.

Craig: Yeah, no, but she still kisses him on the mouth, like twice. Yeah. She looks like she could be his mom.

I mean, she’s gorgeous. She’s a beautiful woman, but she’s significantly older than him. It’s like, he’s supposed to have this incredible sex appeal. Another person gets killed. Uh, the killer watches, another. Dancer and then confronts her in an elevator and she recognizes him and calls him, sir. So we know it’s somebody that she knows and presumably somebody that we know, and at that point, I totally knew who it was.

The killer cuts off her arms, but then as always happens, they immediately find the body because Kendall is just. He just happens to be around all the time. This is happening. Yeah. And they say, yeah, she’s still alive. So we’ll know who it is. And then four seconds later, a doctor comes by and they’re like, how’s she doing?

Oh, Horrible. There’s not a chance in the world. She will live well, thanks.

Todd: But they all come by so quickly that it’s like they were in the other room waiting for this to happen.

Craig: This is the moment where not just Kindle, but every person we’ve been introduced to in the movie shows up at this crime scene and they literally have.

A three second shot of them all standing as though in a lineup. Like, I feel like that was the purpose of that shot. Like

even Willard who had been in jail shows up and is standing there amongst all of them at the murder scene. And nobody even says anything,

Todd: just stay

Craig: in there. Next seed is, I think. Maybe for a couple of reasons. One of my favorite scenes in the movie where Kendall is in bed with this girl and he gets up and you see his Wiener now listen, coming from a gay dude.

You just, and I appreciate the human body in all forms. I think that people might sometimes get confused when I make comments like she had great boobs, look, I can appreciate great boobs.

Todd: Yes.

Craig: I don’t necessarily need to play with them or whatever, but like I can look at an attractive woman and say, look at her.

She’s gorgeous, but you don’t get to see naked dudes very often. And you do hear, and I appreciated that for the brief second that it happened, but it was so funny. This girl that he is in bed with is literally begging him. I’ll control myself, Kendall. If we do it again, come back to, why are you getting dressed, honey?

What did you gag me? Huh? I wouldn’t make any noise.

Todd: Took two steps toward the window. Come on the windows right

Craig: beside them.

Todd: What are you worried about? No, my favorite bit is. Again, full frontal male nudity. I was shocked because I had never seen you, you know, like you said, hardly ever see that in the movies before.

So I’m like, Oh wow. The is like really out there. Then the next shot is a shot through the window. And suddenly there’s a flower pot,

the dong that we just. This song

flower bot, how more cliche can it be? So

Craig: it was hilarious, which also leads to the eye objectively the best scene in the movie. When he’s looking out and he sees Mary walking at night alone on this campus where multiple women have been murdered

Todd: for reasons, unknown, for reasons

Craig: unknown. And, Oh, I don’t even want to tell it.

You tell it.

Todd: So she’s walking down like a passageway corridor outdoors, uh, and she hears the sound of, um, a chainsaw. Behind her and she’s freaking out and suddenly. I’m Ninja, he’s dressed as an inter he’s in a jumpsuit, but an agent guy comes with a flying jump kick towards her it wow. Which she somehow bats him off and he ends up on the ground.

Craig: And like, he does some like serious Kung Fu moves, you know? With the like,

Todd: Oh yeah, it’s all the great

Craig: sound effects. And then Kendall comes around on the motorcycle and the guy gets up and he’s like,

Todd: okay,

Craig: it’s my Kung Fu professor. Well, it’s a story chow. I am out jogging. And next thing I know I am on ground.

That’s something naive, but bad, sweet, so long. Take it easy.

Todd: It’s one of

Craig: the funniest things I’ve ever seen.

Todd: It’s so random.

Craig: I read that the film like the director, I think was making an, he was also making a Kung Fu movie at the same time. So they just wrote in this cameo. And this guy was like a Bruce Lee impersonate,

Todd: a bad Bruce Lee impersonator,

Craig: but it has, it has nothing to do with the rest of the movie and they write it off in the most ridiculous way.

I swear it was one of the funniest. I had no idea what was going on. And then when it was over, it was just one of the funniest things I’d ever seen in my whole life that made watching this movie worth it. Josh and I hate like now, I feel like anybody who’s listening, who hasn’t seen the movie, we have spoiled it

Todd: because it

Craig: comes out of nowhere and that is the best part.

It is hilarious.

Alright. I, that, that’s it.

Todd: I’m done. You say they find the killer. Thank you everybody for listening. Oh, there are a couple other murders. Well, that’s when he ends up walking her home and taking her to her apartment and she refuses him in. Then we get a shot back at the same, the outdoor corridor scene where this reporter, who we be previously been introduced to, I think in like one or maybe two scenes, who’s barely there again.

That cliche. Oh, there’s a reporter on the scene covering the case, except she’s not really covering the case. She’s just kind of hanging around, asking a few questions and then disappears for awhile. She also, for reasons unknown is wandering the empty dark campus where women have been murdered and for no good reason decides to explore a room off of the building.

So she opens the door and she wanders through. And at this point I’m watching this and I’m going. This wasn’t filmed in Boston. Like all of the interiors of this film in this college campus and college campus has happened old style feeling to them with the old style woodwork and stuff. But everything here is distinctly European, like down to the lights, switches on the walls, nothing here looks like it would even be an old American college campus.

She opens a door to mutton, must be a closet and sees a chainsaw on there. And it’s like, Oh, interesting. And then closes that

Craig: door within the killers in there. Yeah, but she just didn’t look like it.

Todd: The minute she shuts the door, we see in the darkness, the flash of a knife. So now the killer has a knife and she continues to walk and she’s.

Stumbles upon the water bed that they’ve just installed. And, uh, as she gets into the room, the door shuts behind her. She freaks out, she tries another door, but some lights come on. And then through that other door, the killer comes in and this scene was particularly brutal.

Craig: It was, and it was, it was good.

He was, this was the best kill scene for sure.

Todd: You was.

Craig: It looks, it looks great.

Todd: Yeah. Did he? He’s got her by the hair and he puts her down on the water bed and she’s struggling. And he stabs her a couple times in the chest and it looks awful. I mean, this is really. Sexual right. I mean, it got the penetration him on top of her, they’re on a water bed and then his knife starts cutting into the bed.

So there’s water and blood mixing together and kind of flying up in the air as they struggle. And it’s all done in slow motion, which is really effective. Anyway, she ends up kind of face down. And he’s got her hair and he pulls up the knife and I thought he was going to stab her in the back. And he ends up stabbing her in the back of her head where the point comes out her mouth and you get a long leering closeup of this, uh, you know, from the side showing this effect, it’s a pretty good effect.

Craig: And then he gets up and he pulls her. Off the bed, but because he’s popped it, it’s like he’s pulling her out of water and the water of course is all bloody. It was really visceral and it looked really, really good. It was almost out of place in this movie how good it was. And I read that everybody was nervous about filming that scene because in order for the actor who, by the way, that the person who ends up being the killer doesn’t play the killer in his killer garb throughout.

So whoever was in. The costume had to use a real knife in order to be able to slash the water bed and everybody was concerned, but I guess, you know, it, it worked out and she didn’t die.

Todd: So God, can you imagine?

Craig: No, I can’t. I mean, I just wouldn’t do that. I. I don’t know, maybe as a performer, I’d be like, Ooh, I’m sacrificing for my art or whatever.

But as a director, I would just say, no, we’re going to have to figure out a different way to do it. But you know, they did it and it looked great. I mean, it’s probably the best looking scene of the whole cool movie by far.

Todd: Yeah. It’s very Argento S it looks just, it looks pulled straight out of one of those movies.

Maybe it was, maybe we’ll be watching some giallo pig and we’ll be like, Oh, This is that seed that he stole this from? Uh, you’re right. It’s fantastic. And then we see the killer, uh, like the feet and the hands of the killer, open up a cooler somewhere. One of these walk in coolers

Craig: know like an industrial freezer.

I still don’t really understand where that was.

Todd: I don’t either. Must’ve been the kitchen at the school or something who knows. And, uh, yeah. And there’s a body hung up in there and I wasn’t even sure whose body that was.

Craig: Me either.

Todd: It was like a random body, but this is the, this is where you start to get a clue as to what’s going on, obviously.

Yeah. Keeping these pieces. But, so he has a full on body in there, so it’s not. As clear as it ought to be. You know, what I would like to see is a table, you know, with some arms and some legs and a torso on it, all kind of like placed together and you never see that you never get that at all in the movie.

So it’s really nice, clear.

Craig: I think that they were trying to save it as this. Surprise reveal because I read the synopsis before I watched the movie. So I knew that’s what he was doing. And you should have been able to figure out that he was collecting body parts because he always leaves most of the body, but he always takes something like the first thing he took was the head.

And then from another girl he took the arm. Um, and then I don’t know, remember what he took from the waterbed girl. Um, but then right after that, He kills the tennis player girl, not, not

Todd: our

Craig: undercover lady, but just a random tennis player girl. He kills her in the locker room and he takes her legs. Like she’s cut from the waist down.

Um, and that scene is not particularly notable except for the fact that once again, she recognizes him, she knows who it is. It’s not revealed to us, but she knows who it is. And the other notable thing about that scene as he chases her around in the locker room, and then he chases her into a bathroom and he saw was the door open.

And I thought that it was kind of, I seen it before or so I didn’t think it was that weird, but it felt kind of weird in this movie that they show that she pees her pants. Yeah. Fear. But I read. That the actress was so terrified at the chainsaw coming through the door, that she literally peed her pants and they just kept it.

Now I kind of find that hard to believe because when she pees her pants,

Todd: it’s a

Craig: closeup on her. You know, PP area.

Right? Why else, why else would they be focusing there unless they knew it was going to happen. But anyway, that’s what I read. So whatever. Yeah, well,

Todd: it’s particularly cruel. I think, you know, I mean, there are points when the exploitation, which is, you know, doesn’t really have a lot of tastes when this movie is, is truly tasteless, you know, and yeah.

This aspect of it. Oh, wow. Check it out. This girl is so scared. She’s peeing her pants and we’re going to show you up close is particularly tasteless and you’re right. I don’t buy it for one bit that. I mean, they would have had to reshoot it because, uh, the camera’s focused right there and yeah, it’s a closeup and it, and it’s happening.

Um, I don’t think this is the production should have had multiple cameras on scene. For sure. And he saw us into her torso and apparently they used a pig, a carcass to get the closeups of the sawing through here. You know, the, the Gore in this movie, from what I read online, most of it was achieved simply by throwing a bunch of actual animal and trails and blood everywhere.

And the aftermath that they see of this girl is a bit iconic as well. They opened the door just to show us her body one more time as the cops show up and. And look, and there she is, you know, without her legs propped up in the corner with blood everywhere and on her and, you know, guts coming out of her, of her chest chest area.

It’s, it’s pretty gross. It’s pretty tasteless, but it’s very, Grindhouse very drive in movie. You know, this movie really accomplished what it was. One who was setting out to achieve it. Didn’t disappoint. Yeah.

Craig: No, no, it is pretty gnarly. And it’s, it’s not the camera doesn’t linger on it for very long. Right.

And I think that that’s wise because it’s almost more shocking that you just kind of get a glimpse of it. Um, because it is it’s carnage. I mean, it’s, it’s pretty gross, but of course, Kendall and Mary. Are there because their Kendall’s always there whenever a murder happen, Benz. And he goes in and finds her and then he comes out and Mary goes in, I think looks, or maybe she doesn’t even go in and look, she just reacts, which is my second favorite part of the movie.

And I insist. That you put in this audio reaction?

Yes. While we were out here, funneling with that music, the lazy bastard was in there.

Oh my God. I have a, I have a big red star next to it in my notes.

Todd: Just when you think the scene is going to end, there’s at least two more bastards coming.

It’s. It’s great.

Craig: And I don’t remember exactly what happens. We see the killer, like put his mom’s. Choose on the feet of a body or something. And then Mary, like just happens to run into Kendall campus and she shuts, she says, she’s going to go. So talk to the Dean about something. And he says, well, the Dean won’t be home until later because he always goes to Arlington on the first of every month.

And. Even though I already knew who it was. PS guys. It was the Dean all along. Um, even though I had known that for a long time, this, this is where it was. I meant it because in the opening scene with when the killer was a kid, there was a photograph of his dad. In his air force uniform on, uh, his dresser and the mom made some mention of it.

So I knew that the killer’s dad had been in the service. Um, so the fact that he visited our LinkedIn once a month, I’m like, ah, okay. So it’s definitely him. And it was wow. I know. I’m really smart. Todd. You’d never given me enough.

Todd: I won’t start, but you know, just this one time.

Craig: Okay. Fine. Um, and then Kendall goes to help.

One of the cops go through some records while Mary goes to visit the Dean and they should have just started with the records because apparently right there in the records, it says, Oh yeah, the Dean’s a psychopath.

Todd: That’s right.

Craig: So they figure it out and then they have to, they have to race to try to. Save Mary. And that leads up to the finale, the final

Todd: confrontation. It’s such a belabored scene too, because we all know what’s going on and Mary’s in there and he sits down and asked her if she wants some coffee and it’s so dated.

It’s cute. He walks into the other room, which I, this is his apartment. Right. At first I thought it was his office, but I guess it’s his apartment. It must be because it’s got this new mass, the

Craig: house.

Todd: Yeah. Massive European style kitchen pulls out these European style cups and a European style coffee pot

Craig: then makes her some Sanka

Todd: saying, it says, call us from the other room.

It’s instant coffee. Is that all right? She was like, Oh, that’s fantastic. Fantastic.

And she asked for some cream and a little bit of saccharin, which is also cute. And he pulls out a little vile with a dropper from the, the, uh, cabinet. He’s looking really nervous as he drops in stuff into her coffee, never does put the cream in a, but pours the water in and brings it out to her. And they have a little talk while she drinks or coffee.

And she asks them a very pointed question and he says, um, Well, do you want some more coffee first? She’s like, okay. Then we get they’re long ass scene of him bringing the coffee cups back into the kitchen, adding like 10 more drops of whatever he’s putting in her coffee. Uh, bringing her out more coffee that she drinks it.

She feels woozy. And then of course the whole confession where whatever he’s given her has paralyzed her. Sort of, but he can hear, you can hear everything I’m saying, but you can’t move because I drugged your coffee. Huh. And he pulls out, uh, some shoes, those shoes, and it turns out that her feet are a perfect fit.

So the idea I think here is that he’s going to solve her feet at the very least and kill her too. Right. But thankfully, uh, just as he’s about to do the deed Kendall. Pops in, in the Nick of time

Craig: and the cops, because the cops bring Kendall because why wouldn’t you bring a civilian? Right.

Todd: Well, at first it’s Kendall and they fight and it looks like he’s going to get Kendall and he’s on top of him and he’s got a knife and it looks like he’s got the best of them.

Then the cops person at the last moment. And with one quick shot, straight through the door, Shoot him point point in the middle of forehead. Uh, and he falls over dead. And then you think it’s pretty much over,

Craig: well, I love that, that, you know, after the killer is dead, but Mary is still paralyzed. I don’t even know who it was, but like some man strokes her face

Todd: and hair and like,

Craig: Uh, searingly and she can’t move, but she could just kind of bad her eyes and smile up at him.

Like you’re hands off. Are you creepo? Rose, even move.

Todd: It is gross,

Craig: but yeah, it leads up to

Todd: God. So Kendall standing and, uh, the lieutenant’s assistant can’t remember his name, uh, has says, Hey, look at this and pulls out a jigsaw puzzle, which if you’re watching closely, it’s pretty obvious that the puzzle he’s showing him doesn’t match the closeup that they’re showing of the puzzle.

But anyway, uh, it’s a puzzle. He must have really been into puzzles and puzzling blah, blah, blah. And at this moment for no good reason, the bookshelf. Behind them suddenly spins around. It’s one of those fake bookshelf things. And this body that this guy apparently has been working on falls down on onto Kendall and slow motion.

It’s, it’s a Frankenstein, esque type woman who’s been pieced together. Yeah. And he screams, ah, and there’s like a freeze frame on that. And I thought, Oh, okay, we’re going to get the credits now. Nope, then it’s like, okay. Uh, pick her up. Well, that was weird. Wasn’t it? Yeah. I guess he’s trying to assemble body parts to create the perfect woman or whatnot.

Well, I’m glad this is all over. And at that second, uh, hand reaches up from under, Oh no. Kendall standing over that. Corpse of the, yeah, the woman who’s been pieced together with covering over and the guy says, stop looking at that. It’s okay. We can go now. And Kendall’s like, all right. And suddenly the hand of this corpse shoots up and grabs him in the balls and squeezes and there’s blood

Craig: and she’s

Todd: screaming and, and freeze frame, freeze frame,

Craig: and then credits.

Todd: What in the actual,

Craig: I did this movie

Todd: hilarious. Take a sudden turn to the supernatural at the very, very end. I

Craig: don’t know, but I’m glad they did because it was a really stupid movie, but that was funny. Like it was all hilarious. It’s

Todd: funny. Unlike like an airplane, Jerry Abrams level,

Craig: I know

Todd: none of the rest of you

Craig: and it comes out of nowhere.

Todd: Yes. None of the rest of this movie had this, anything like this kind of comedy, except for in the very beginning, that girl roller skating into a fricking mirror.

Craig: Yeah.

Todd: Was this the bookend.

Craig: Oh, man, I tell you what this was. It was, so it was so stupid. It was such a stupid movie. And really like,

Todd: there are parts

Craig: of that. I’m like, God, goddammit, Todd. Sorry, do as the movies. Um, but especially with the hand, like claw. Dick at the end. That’s okay.

Todd: Soccer for a hand on a Dick. Aren’t you, you

Craig: know everybody.

Oh, so no, so yeah, no, uh, I would not. Necessarily recommend this movie too. Anybody again, as we I’m sure people just get sick of us saying the same shit over and over again. But like, if you’re looking for a movie to sit around with your buddies and that was perfect. And joke around like that. Yeah, that’s great.

It’s a bad movie, but if you’re just looking for something to goof on, go for it.

Todd: Yeah. Watch it with friends though. Don’t watch it by yourself. It’s no fun by yourself. Much more fun to laugh at with other people. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend where you can find us online, just search for two guys and a chainsaw, and you’ll find our website.

You’ll find our Facebook page. Uh, you’ll find another video you really don’t want to watch, uh, but go to one of those other places. I just mentioned, leave us a comment. And also if you have any requests, That you would like us to do in the near future. We are plowing through those as well until next time.

I’m Todd

Craig: and I’m Craig.

Todd: with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Wilford Brimley, iconic actor of the 1980’s and beyond, passed away last month at 85 years old. Luckily for us, he plays a pivotal role in John Carpenter’s equally iconic horror film, The Thing, which finally gave us an excuse to tackle this special effects extravaganza.

As a creature feature with a lot going for it, it’s a bit difficult to understand why it wasn’t as well received in its day. Listen as we try to answer this question and throw in a few clips of Wilford Brimley’s unmistakable voice.

The Thing (1982)

Episode 226, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of two guys and a chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: I’m Craig,

Todd: This one is going to go down in history as our tribute episode to Wilford Brimley. Wilford Brimley died on August 1st this year, and we’re very sad to see his passing. He is a very notorious actor known for a number of roles he has about 77, actually exactly. 77 screen credits to his name on imdb.com. I think it really just depends. It depends on the generation you’re in. What do you know him from? He actually got started in acting a little later in life. He picked up some speed in the eighties, but he was, was actually born in the thirties. He was like in his late forties, early fifties when he started acting dang, but he ended up getting it ton of roles.

I remember him the most from cocoon. And then he was in movies and in TV shows. Yeah, throughout the eighties, he was in commercials and stuff. I think for. Hemorrhoids and stuff like that,

Craig: diabetes,

Todd: Diabetes, but actually quite a good actor. And he was also in the movie that we’re doing this week, which is the thing from 1982 by John Carpenter, which itself is a remake of an earlier film by Howard Hawks.

And then of course later on was redone, I think, a little closer to now, but I. Fricking love this movie. And I loved it when I first saw it. It is a special effects extravaganza. It’s a John Carpenter picture that didn’t get as much love when it came out as it does now. Uh, he’s definitely gotten the credit lately that he deserves for this film.

So I’m really excited to talk about the thing and to look for this excuse, to talk about Wilford, Brimley, who, you know, a lot of movies. When we, when we do these tributes episodes, we’re looking for a horror film where a person has. Ends up having kind of a minor role in it, like in like likened Christine, which we did recently, but here we are, Wilford Brimley actually has a pivotal role in this John Carpenter film.

So it’s, it’s good to be able to use this film as a vehicle to talk about him and talk about his career.

Craig: Wilford. Brimley is just. Kind of guy who is just, I don’t know, kind of been on it, the cultural radar, my whole lifetime. It seems like because he had diabetes and, uh, was a spokesperson. They’re still running his commercials for diabetes awareness, but I remembered him I guess, from this.

And then he also did back to my days of our lives connections. He did a TV show with Deidre hall called. Our house or something like that.

Todd: Our house is a very, very, very fine house. Yeah.

Craig: A little tiny baby Shannen Doherty, I think was in that show too. And so I’ve just always kind of been aware of who he was, but just kind of reading up on him today.

You know, like you said, he got, uh, started kind of late. And he talked about in interviews, how he never got to play the leading man. He always, he said that he started playing the role of the father to people who were 25 years as junior, right. From the beginning of his career. And he kind of got. Stuck in that he was by far.

I think, I think he was 49 when he filmed a cocoon and he was at least two decades younger than any of the other people who played senior citizens in that movie. And so he was just kind of, I cast in that way, um, he was cast in the thing. Because carpenter wanted a nonthreatening. Every man spoiler alert, he ends up being one of the central antagonists.

Yes, I arguably I guess the big, bad, huh? Uh, in this movie. And I found out just minutes before. You and I got online together that Brimley hates this

Todd: movie or hate it.

Craig: Yeah. I hated this movie.

Todd: He said,

Craig: wow. He said, from the time carpenter yelled action, he knew he was in trouble and he did not. He thought it was garbage.

He thought it was a trash movie.

Todd: So interesting. Well, this movie didn’t get a lot of love when carpenter put it out there. I, it wasn’t, I mean, it was just a, sort of a modest success at best at the box office. It was almost critically panned. And in retrospect, it’s revered. This movie is. And I mean, I think I’m just going to say nothing but nice things about this movie is I think it’s fantastic.

And I haven’t seen it, the original, the thing from another world or whatever it is that. And carpenter was a huge fan, apparently of the original film. He watched it a lot, even in preparation for his breakout film and Halloween. That’s how influential this movie was and how important this movie was to him.

So I think he was very disappointed when this movie came out to not so great, critical acclaim and even. One of my, I mean, I’m a serious fan boy of Roger Ebert. And I think I’ve said it before in this, on this podcast, how much I love him. I went back and I watched his contemporary review of this movie. He gave it two and a half stars.

He wasn’t terribly kind to it, but in retrospect, years later, he revised his opinion and said that this is one of the all time great scifi movies of 1982. I just love it. I’ve always enjoyed this movie. I don’t honestly, don’t see. What anyone would see wrong with this film? It’s got a little bit of everything.

It has a lot of suspense. It has a lot of tension, what God, it has a ton of characters and the special effects might be the specialist. Facts are the thing that carpenter, because carpenter was such a fan of the original. He originally was not terribly keen on doing this film. This went through a ton of directors and a ton of screenwriters before it finally landed on him.

Play. And he finally agreed to do it. And everybody got on board. This was a thing that was a couple decades in the making this remake. And a lot of people were reluctant to join on board. But the thing that carpenter that kind of cemented carpenter’s interest in this was the idea that he could add a little bit of realism, add a little bit of effects to it and centralize a little bit more of the focus on the thing and get.

I don’t know, a little more exploitative about it, to be honest, you know, just get a little, gorier get a little more update UpToDate about the, the, the monster, make it a little bit more of a monster movie, which he did. And that was kind of ended up being what he got creamed on. People said us. It’s just a little, it’s kind of a gory special effects extravaganza.

Doesn’t have a lot of heart, but I think nowadays, because we’re used to gory special effects, extravaganzas this doesn’t look like such an extravaganza for the crux of the film, home, the plot, the idea that. There’s this monster here, and nobody knows what it is. It’s kind of an invasion of the body snatchers type thing.

That tension may be floats a little bit more to the top. And so I think maybe a more modern audience appreciates us a little bit more. Then the audience that came out, that’s the only explanation I can come up with with why this wasn’t as critically revered then as it is now.

Craig: Yeah. I don’t know either it is gory, um, and all the effects.

Well, I think at least the vast majority of the facts, uh, are. Practical and they look fantastic, but yeah, like you said, it was, the critics just felt like it was an excuse for Gore that he was a blood hound kinda guy. And it was put on the video nasties lists in the UK and. It just didn’t go over very well.

And it may be because it was a different type, you know, with Halloween and Friday, the 13th slashers were becoming really popular. And so I think maybe some people were anticipating something more along those lines and it was even a carpenter was really disappointed with. Did the poster design, because it was kind of disconnected from his vision of the movie.

And he felt like it made it look like a slasher. And so people were, uh, maybe anticipating that it does have the interest backstory of, you know, going through all these different people. Yeah, Toby Hooper was at least before carpenter stepped in, that was who was going to be doing the project. And he had envisioned it in a totally different way.

In fact, he had wanted to kind of make it a dark comedy. Hmm. But, uh, the studio rejected that. And so they ended up going with carpenter because of his success with Halloween. They wanted to also in the marketing, uh, highlight the fact that this was an alien movie. They, they used the word alien and one of the tag lines because of the success of Ridley Scott’s alien.

And so maybe there were just too many. You know, people didn’t know what to expect. And then it was very different than anything else that we had kind of seen coming out at the time. It really is kind of more of a throwback to, to those, uh, Saifai movies of the fifties and sixties. But. You know, amped up a lot in, in terms of Gore, who knows when it comes down to it.

Uh, I agree with you. I think it’s a solid movie. I think I’m a little bit nervous in talking about it because it’s such a large cast of characters. And so it’s sometimes gets. The hard to keep up with who everybody is. Um, but that being said, it’s a really strong ensemble. I think the performances are, are really solid and it’s got that isolated, um, kind of claustrophobic field because it takes place primarily all in one pretty confined space.

Plus it takes place in Antarctica. So it’s highly desolate, um, which. Is great for atmosphere and, and suspense and buildings dread. And, and the story really is, is pretty simple. You know, it’s a bunch of American guys at some outpost in Antarctica. We don’t really have any indication of what they’re doing there.

Todd: I do wonder, I do wonder we do at this research station in Antarctica or what they’re doing in particular,

Craig: I have no idea. And you know, like why they have an arsenal, including flame throwers. Like what kind of dangers were they anticipating that they might need flame throwers? I’m not sure

Todd: is the Arctic and it’s all ice and snow.

So I mean, the op you know, you’ve got to have a flame thrower. Counteract, I don’t know the ice and snow. Good question.

Craig: Wait, they’re all there for unknown reasons. And my gosh, one of my favorite parts of the movie is the opening scene. You get the title, which is pretty cool in itself. Oh actually even before the title, isn’t there.

It’s the spaceship is that the

Todd: first day there’s a spaceship flying through space near, you know, over earth. And then it kind of. I don’t know. I guess it burns up into the atmosphere. You get the sense that a land, something like that. It’s smart. And I mean, it starts out in that interesting Saifai fifties way, right?

Where it just shows a spaceship coming to earth. There’s no more explanation. And then the score comes up and then the thing title comes out to a. Pretty good score, actually. Um, any more, had some involvement in the score with this, uh, uh, John Carpenter really wanted him to do the score and John carpenter’s pretty famous for doing his own scores for his films.

And he would use, I mean, he, his father’s a very accomplished musician. He has a very musical background, but he was doing synthesizers and I’ve, I’ve watched some interviews with carpenter who said that honestly, the whole reason he ended up doing scores for his films was purely economical. It was just.

Kind of made sense with the lower budgets he started while working with that, he would just kind of end up scoring the movie himself. And so he’d bring in some sense and he’d do it. And, and, you know, we get Halloween, we got some very iconic scores from him. I think actually he’s pretty good at doing at, at, at giving the movie, the kind of music it needs, but for this smoothie, he really wanted Ennio Morricone to do some scoring for him.

So he asked him to do it. He flew to Italy and. You got about, I don’t know, it’s like 22 minutes to an hour’s worth of music from Oh. And then came back and yeah, I mean, if you read online and do some research, apparently he manipulated it quite a bit. He had his own, his own sense stuff to it. And so even though the title card comes out, music by Ennio Morricone the reality is that John carpenter’s thumbprint is.

At least as prevalent on the score of this movie as any hoses, but he’d ended up doing some music that was very atypical of him. He was intentionally trying to match John Carpenter style from his earlier films. So you get a nice score. And I thought, actually the movie started out quite well with that.

You get the spaceship by earth and then you get this cool title, the thing, and you get this swooping score. That’s a little bit orchestral and sort of half. As well. And so, uh, it’s different. And, and actually there’s not a ton of music throughout the whole movie, really small parts pointed parts where there is music, otherwise I think smartly.

So really, you know, John Carpenter chose to not score certain, very tense moments of the film. So, uh, you know, we had talked about doing this movie as a tribute to Ennio Morricone and our tribute to MEO Ennio Morricone who also died this year. Coming up soon, but at the end of the day, I think we decided that because of the history of this film and that his score is maybe have been manipulated considerably that, uh, we would be better off choosing another film for that.

So anyway, that’s a bit of a tangent anyway. Yeah, you’re right. The movie starts with a spacious.

Craig: Well, I was, I was just going to add that like the movie at the time, the score was also critically panned. In fact, it was nominated for a Razzie. It didn’t win

Todd: crazy. Right.

Craig: But, uh, again, just like the film, it’s kind of become a cult classic, uh, of scores.

Uh, and it’s interesting cause it’s, it’s very subtle and it just makes use of very simple kind of base notes. And, uh, I think a lot of our listeners. Even if they can’t think of it off the top of their head, if they heard it, they would recognize it. It’s a recognizable, uh, score in part, because it is so simple, but I had really even forgotten about that whole spaceship thing.

What I remembered was the opening scene, where you just see kind of this Arctic landscape and this helicopter comes up over and over mountain range and swoops down, um, towards the ground. And you. See that they are chasing a dog and it’s, I don’t know, probably a minute long, long scene of this helicopter following this dog and the dog, looking back over its shoulder, seeing where the helicopter is and kind of maneuvering a way from it.

And eventually the dog runs into this camp of these American guys. All of the men, by the way, uh, which also makes the film kind of unique. There’s narrate there’s, there’s not a woman in the entire movie. Originally, there was a female character, but the actress who was going to be playing her had to drop out for some reason, they replaced her with a guy.

So it’s an entirely male cast, but the dog runs into this camp and the people in the camp hear gunfire because the helicopters shooting at this dog. And so they run out to see what’s going on. And the dog runs up and approaches them in a very friendly fashion. It jumps up on one of them that the actor who had jumps up on, uh, I guess, was terrified of dogs and really struggled with that scene, uh, which is kind of surprising because I have to say, I think, and this is sarcastic, but the dog is the best actor in the movie.

That’s really not true, but this may be the case. Best animal actor I’ve ever seen, because as it turns out this dog, It’s not really a dog. Uh, it is some sort of shape shifting parasitic life for that can insect and, and basically replicate any living organism and in doing so. It. Kills the original organism, but it becomes an exact replica of that organism.

So this Norwegian helicopter, it has to guys in it and they land. And one of them starts screaming at the guys in Norwegian. Of course they can’t understand that the Norwegian actually translates to get away from it. It’s not dog. It’s some kind of thing that Norwegian guy actually fires at the dog and hits one of the guys in the leg.

And then also, and this is kind of stupid. He goes to throw a grenade at them dog, but he ends up accidentally dropping it right by. So it blows up the helicopter. You’re killing the other guy in the helicopter. And then once the guy with the gun shoots, one of the Americans in the leg, one of the other Americans shoots him dead.

So they have no idea who these people are. I mean, they know that there was a Norwegian outpost. But they don’t know why they were here and they don’t really, there doesn’t seem to be any suspicion about the dog. At all. So they just let the dog kind of wander around. Yeah. And honestly, I don’t know how the trainer did this, or if it was just the nature of this dog, but dogs seems so aware, like it’s slow in its movement.

It looks like it’s observing them. It looks like it’s snooping around. It seems to have much more intense awareness than your typical dog. They don’t notice it. But as a viewer, I was just like, dang, that is, that dog is a nail in

Todd: your. You’re a hundred percent right about that, that dog. And I was impressed.

I was impressed with the scenes. And the thing that I really like about this movie is it jumps right into the action. And I don’t think this was something, of course, this went through, doesn’t like it like about a dozen scripts and they were even working on a John Carpenter and, uh, you know, the final screenwriters that were given credit for this all the way up to the end.

But. One thing that, um, that they did right here was to jump us right into the middle of the action where this happens, and this dog comes on to camp. And like you said, there are these scenes of the dog just wandering around and. And like you said, it’s not just the dog wandering around, but it seems to have some intelligence about, it seems to be snooping a bit.

It seems to be observing. And from the beginning, you understand there’s something wrong with this doc. Like this dog is not, I mean, obviously this guy was chasing it and trying to kill it, but people on this. On this outpost should be worried about this dog and they’ve completely let it go because they’re a little more concerned about the mystery of why this helicopter from the Norwegian outpost apparently came in.

And unfortunately they shoot him dead because he tries to shoot the dog and instead ends up shooting the leg of one of the guys. And then, uh, Gary kind of called the captain or whatever ends up and him and response and killing him. So nobody really knows what’s what’s going on. And so they decide to go out and check out the normal region camp.

And so McCready who Kurt Russell’s character ends up going out, along with. Um,

Craig: I dunno, there are, uh, one of the doctors, that’s the thing. There are so many guys

Todd: they’re like, yeah, it’s 12 people at this camp, which makes sense. I mean, if you’re going to have an out a research outpost in the Arctic, you’re going to have a lot of people, but for a film and trying to keep track of everybody well, for a podcast, you know, you gotta, you gotta write a lot of names.

It’s not hard to keep track of everybody. As far as watching the movie goes and seeing what happens, it’s actually quite simple, but he ends up going out to check out and investigate. This Norwegian camp. And when they get there, they find out it’s completely burned out. And there’s a weird corpse, an odd amalgamation of like two humans.

And it’s a mess. It’s an odd corpse that they bring back to the camp. But what they also find is a big block of ice. It’s obviously been excavated from the Arctic ice block or whatever, and it’s clear that these people have found something. In the ice, excavated it. And then sometime later decided to burn out their whole camp and there shouldn’t have stalk.

And there’s this weird

Craig: ass one guy that had committed suicide by slitting his wrists, which was really kind of a cool image because in these freezing conditions, the blood had frozen as it was dripping out. And I got it. It seemed really stupid that they would take that weird thing back.

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: I don’t think that I would have wanted to touch that thing because they can’t tell what it is, but it has definite human attributes, but they are horribly, horribly disfigured.

And there’s what appears to be kind of like a head, but it kind of appears to be split as though. Were two faces being either pulled apart or converging. Um, and you see some teeth there and it’s got some hands, but like the fingers are abnormally long and other appendages, but they’re just all not right.

You know, they’re just all it’s wrong. It looks like an abomination. Therefore have anything to do

Todd: in now, were you thinking of the shunting from society? Yeah, it was just, it was totally that. I mean, it was just a massive of, of human weirdness and it was brought back to the camp. They bring it back to the camp.

They don’t know what to do with it. And honestly like this part of the movie, I kind of get, I mean, these guys are just WTF the whole time and that part of it, I really liked. You know, nobody really knows what to make of what they’re finding. And the key element here is that they have no communication back to anybody else it’s established pretty early on, uh, that their radio guy, uh, windows is unable to.

To make any contact via radio with any of their other camps or, you know, with bass or whatever like that. So they’re pretty much on their own and winter is coming. So it’s an especially harsh time in a day or two there expecting lots of storms and there completely isolated and disconnected. So they bring this thing back and it’s quite well in the film that they’re all going to be pretty much on their own.

That they’re going to have to deal with whatever they find. And I thought that was smart too. I mean, I think the movie in general is very smartly written. You know, it establishes very quickly steaks. It establishes some mystery, uh, and the sense of isolation from all these people. So they’re going to have to deal with it themselves.

Yeah. And then also it very quickly, I think is sort of establishes all the characters as best as it can. All 12 people in this camp, you’ve got Wilford, Brimley who’s I guess a scientist. You’ve got the doc who they call doc and he’s the doctor. And then the only person, you know, that they don’t really, Oh, you’ve got like a stoner guy, you know, it was, yeah.

Every single scene, lighting up a Doobie, which I thought was hilarious. You have Childs who’s played, uh, by an actor that, uh, everybody would, would well recognize David keys notable for being one of the few black actors. And at this time who actually survives a horror film. And he’s quite proud of that, arguably yeah, he’s quite proud of that fact, but then, you know, you get this, this character of, uh, McCready.

Well, I thought it’s cute. When you finally kind of see how his name is spelled out. It’s like mic ready, which is nice, but it’s Kurt Russell. And, uh, in the beginning of the film, you’re not quite sure what role he plays in this. It’s not til about midway through that. You realize he’s just a freaking helicopter pirate.

Pilot, you know, he’s, he’s nobody special. He’s not the leader. He’s not anything. He just pilots the helicopter, he drinks whiskey the whole time, but he ends up being the guy with at least enough sense or at least in the position to be able to sort of become the leader in this movie. So, and, and Kurt Russell is.

Even by this time is, is kind of a long time, becomes a long time. John Carpenter staple. I think it was escape from New York, came out before this movie, but, uh, yeah, so, I mean, it’s, it’s neat how the film sets all this up in a relatively quick time frame. I liked that about the movie is that it wasn’t slow, even though you’ve got 12 characters in the situation and it captured my interest and it kept my interest.

Craig: Like you said, there are a lot of characters and it’s kind of hard for us to keep track of them and talking about them, but they all just have distinct looks and distinct character traits. So it’s not as though you’re confused as to who’s who and all that kind of stuff. And, and most of these guys, uh, are guys that you, if you are familiar with.

Films and television of the eighties that you’re going to recognize. Yeah. TK Carter. His NOLs was in a lot of movies at that time. Keith David, like you said, very recognizable Richard Mazer plays Clark and he’s the dog keeper. He’s from tons of things, but we did a mini series and he was. Adult Stanley and that, like I said, I’ll hold their own.

There really aren’t any weak performances. But when, when they get back to the camp, dr. Blair Wilford, Brimley, scary a is tasked with doing an autopsy on this thing. And, uh, the other doctor, I think, does the autopsy on the pilots that they shot and the pilots that they shot, there was nothing. You know, remarkable about him, just a regular dead guy and, but Wilford, Brimley, Dyson, this, uh, thing, and yeah, it’s gross.

Um, they used actual animal organs that he like pulls out of this creature. And I guess everybody else on set was just really squeamish about it. Wilford, Brimley. Didn’t bother him at all handling all of that Gore and grow stuff. Well, well, we got here is what appears to be anyway, a normal set of

Todd: internal organs,

Craig: heart

Todd: lungs, kidneys, liver

Craig: intestine

seem to be normal. It’s just a mystery. They don’t know what’s going on. Uh, at some point the dog, this new dog startles one of the other guys. And so they tell Clark to put. Not for any reason, just like it bumps into him or something. Um, but they tell Clark to put it with the other dogs and he does, he puts it in the kennel with the other dogs.

And this is when, if you didn’t know what was going on in the movie, this is when it becomes clear because this dog transforms in the kennel it’s face like opens up and like an interior skull kind of protracts and it starts growing all of these tents tickles, it shoots some kind of. Who’s at one of the other dogs that seems to start to kind of like externally digest it.

And the other dogs of course are freaking out. So everybody hears the dogs freaking out. So they go running in there and they all see what happens. Um, so they know, they know, yeah, there’s no question and they shoot it and nothing, it doesn’t seem to phase it. Uh, so they get the flame thrower and, uh, they.

Seemingly kill it with the flame thrower. And that’s when Blair starts doing some, I don’t know if research is the right word, but starts trying to figure out what’s going on. He figures it out seemingly right away. You see what we’re talking about here is an organism that imitates other life forms and

Todd: it imitates him perfectly

Craig: when this thing attacked our dogs that tried to digest them.

Absorbed them. And then the process shape its own cells to imitate them. This, for instance, it’s not dog

temptation. We got to it before it had time to finish. It’s finished. What. Finish imitating these dogs. And when he realizes that he kind of looks at Clark and says, how long were you alone? Were you alone with the dog? And Clark’s like, I don’t know, a while. Why? And he’s like, Hmm, I don’t know. So it seems like, it seems like Blair figures out pretty quickly, what can happen.

And so they go back and they look at the footage from the Ridge, they had taken some like a, they called it a portable video. Something, I don’t know, but anyway, footage and they see footage of these Norwegian guys finding something in the ice. So McCready goes back to the site to check it out. And there’s a huge spaceship there.

And I don’t know how they figured this out, but one of the guys says, you know, that I has probably been frozen there. It, the Norwegians had dug this spaceship out of the ice. And one of the American guys said that ISIS we’ve been there for a hundred thousand years. And then they somewhere just a little bit distant from the crash site or the spaceship, they find the big square where they had dug the ice out.

So they theorize that whatever this thing is had either been thrown from the ship when it crashed or head. Left the ship and frozen nearby. And as it turns out, that’s accurate and by throwing it out, they have brought it back. And then there’s a really funny scene. Gosh, these movies. Our computer technology was not,

Todd: we gave computers a lot of credit back in the eighties.

Craig: Yeah. We liked to pretend that our technology was far more advanced than it was, but really it looks like we, Blair is looking at this simulation, um, which is supposed to show how the thing works. It’s cells. Uh, in fact, the cells of other organisms, and then basically it, it destroys the cells and replicates then imitates.

Um, but it looks like he’s playing like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s really still

Todd: the computer itself. Allah, the fly. Can speak in full sentences. And it’s like probability of, one of your crew members being infected is 75%. Right.

Craig: And then it says entire world population infected 27,000 hours from the first contact, which would be about three years.

So that freaks Blair out. Gosh, I don’t know. This story is so simple, but like a lot happens, basically. The thing. They have, you know, they have that body or whatever, they’re going to store it in like the storage room. Again, it doesn’t seem like really a great idea. Like maybe freeze it. Yeah. In Antarctica you could just like put it outside, but of course it comes back to life and then it starts copying the guys.

Todd: Well, that’s the interesting thing about this movie. And this is, this is really the crux of the, the original film, which was itself was based on a short story. But the idea is that this thing can completely replicate someone. So we have a sort of invasion of the body snatchers scenario, and it becomes impossible for everybody on this.

12 person crew to trust each other because they realize pretty quickly that any one of them could actually be the thing. And it’s interesting in the movie, like maybe they don’t even know, or maybe they know, but they are continuing to act like they normally would. And so it really becomes this game. And it’s an interesting juxtaposition.

You have these moments where the thing is just a full out monster and somebody just, you know, their head like bursts open and then. It becomes this crazy ass thing. That’s this DNA, you know, kind of nightmare, but the other half of the movie and the thing that provides the most tension to the film is, okay, so we know maybe somebody is infected, so who is it?

And who’s going to trust who, and who’s going to go off with them and who won’t go off with who, and, you know, it just slowly picks away. At the people in the camp as they themselves can’t really trust each other and are trying to figure out how can they figure out who is the thing? And who’s not, I mean, it’s a neat premise.

It’s a really cool premise. It really goes far beyond this monster movie to this sort of psychological thriller terrorists.

Craig: It is. And, and the way that they know all of this, like they kind of figure it out from Blair’s notes because Blair kind of goes missing for a little while. And they can’t find him, but they read in his notes, uh, what he had already figured out that it can replicate.

And that the thing that they had brought back was not dead yet. Um, and as soon as they figure that out, one of the guys gets attacked by the thing, and it starts to assimilate into him and. In mostly human form runs outside of the outpost building and they chase it out. And when they find it, it’s almost complete, but not quite.

And so they kill it with fire too. And they talk about how, you know, if, if. In Italy, if it had just had another minute or so it would have been complete and we wouldn’t have been able to tell the difference. And so that’s how they know. And so at that point, they don’t know, they think that maybe something of the rest of them already are things McCready is standing in front of all of them outside at one point.

And he says, I know I’m human.

Todd: And if you were all these things, then you just attack me right

Craig: now. So some of

Todd: you are still human.

Craig: This thing doesn’t want to show itself. It wants to hide inside the name of station. Go fight if it has to, but it’s vulnerable out in the

Todd: open.

Craig: Meanwhile, Wilford Brimley, his character.

They catch him destroying the helicopter and he had also. Off-camera destroyed a attractor or something, so they don’t have of any transportation. And then there’s a big confrontation where he is in the radio room, destroying all of the communication equipment. They eventually. Converge on him and lock him up in a shed.

Um, and then that’s when they start talking about how they’re going to figure it out. Who’s who first they have an idea that like yeah, if they mix their blood with blood that they know is human. If the alien blood gets mixed with that, they should see some sort of reaction or something.

Todd: Right. It’s

Craig: dark.

I didn’t really quite understand

Todd: box idea and it’s that they have blood of their own that they’ve stored away because this thing, every bit of it is alien. So there will be some kind of reaction. And so they will know. That there is a problem. It’s a little tenuous, but when they get to the blood supply, they see the blood supply has been destroyed.

Somebody has actually gone and sabotage the blood supply, and this is what turns them all against each other. Like Gary had the key, but doc, you know, is the one who normally. Accesses it. And so now they’re, they’re worried, well, who would have come here and sabotage it cause they know that Blair has been locked away.

And so they turned on each other really quickly. Uh, and McCready ends up taking charge because Gary who apparently was the guy in charge, just kind of like the captain. Yeah. Very noble sort of lays his gun down and says, look because of this, this whole situation, I understand. You’re not going to trust me.

So somebody else needs to take charge and McCready. Grabs the gun and decides to be the guy and everybody more or less goes along with that. So they decide to morphine, doc and Clark, who was the guy who was with the dogs and Gary. Right. And Blair had actually said to McCready after McCree had, had locked a Blair, he said, look, Watch Clark watch him closely because he was with those D he, you know, he was with those dogs from the beginning.

He could be wrong. So that’s why those three are under suspicion at the same time the storm is coming in. Uh, and they say, nobody trusts anybody. Now in McCready starts recording a message. He records a tape saying like, look, if, if, if anybody finds a, some were all dead, at least there’s this for posterity.

I wanna, I want to record this and I’m going to hide it. Criti, signing off helicopter pilot for the outpost. And that’s the first time. And I think it’s, it’s a telling moment, really, when we find out that he’s at this point, he’s actually just the helicopter pilot. I mean, up until this point, I felt like he had some level of importance at this facility.

You know, I feel like at least he has agency that not a lot of other people have. And then when you realize he’s just a helicopter pilot, that’s that struck me a little bit like a, like a, a ton of bricks. Uh, it was a nice touch. I thought in the narrative that, uh, that he, that we realized that, but you know, he’s also the.

Typical American like Clint Eastwood type antihero, right? He’s swigging, scotch. He seems to not give a crap about anything. He seems to be clever because in the beginning we saw him playing chess with the computer and he puts a cowboy hat on, you know, when he goes out and about, he’s very much an archetype in this movie, but ends up becoming the hero, uh, has to come in and kind of be smarter than the doctor and like the experts and everybody else.

Craig: Yeah, they considered Clint Eastwood for the role. I don’t know if they even approached him with it, but he was somebody that they had in mind. But yeah, he’s that kind of guy, just kind of the unlikely hero, I guess, um, based solely on circumstance at this point, there’s some business and it goes in, it never gets boring ever.

I mean it, the action movie. But in talking about it, I feel like it might get a little bit, so basically all that happens is they do some investigating, a couple of other guys die for some reason, McCready and Nalls, um, who is the cook? Uh, ended up checking out McCready’s cabin or shed or whatever it is because the light is on when it shouldn’t have been.

And then Nalls comes back alone and he says, I cut the toe line or the guideline, because I think that McCready it’s one of those things because in the, in the shit or cabin or whatever it is, Nalls had found a suit of McCready’s that was all shredded. And they had already decided that the. Person’s clothing gets destroyed in the transformation.

And so they’re convinced that McCready is one of these things that he comes back again, like a badass with a flame thrower and a big thing, a dynamite, and basically threatened to blow them all up and say, attack him. Yeah. And it’s very tense because, you know, There’s still at this point, I don’t know several guys have died at this point.

Plus, um, Wilford Brimley. His character is locked out in a shed somewhere. So there’s probably at a seven or eight of them at this point, but plenty of them that did McCready not have the dynamite and the thrower in hand, they probably would have just dispatched him right away. And you keep seeing these shots of people like.

Concealing weapons kind of behind their back. So you know that he could face attack at any point, but that leads to probably one of the most recognizable scenes in the movie where Norris, who. It is a character that you barely even realizes. Yeah.

Todd: Like it’s like he’s in there twice. This guy

Craig: he’s, he’s a guy like me, he’s kind of this kind of schlubby guy who kind of fades into the background.

And then you’re like, Oh, I didn’t realize you were here, but he, like, he has a heart attack seemingly and the other doctor tries to use a  later on him and he  them once. And then when he goes to do it again, the guy’s chest. Norris, his chest opens up like a huge mouth and bites off coppers.

Todd: Are

Craig: it looks amazing.

Todd: You’re right. This whole scene is notorious. I call it the head crab scene because as soon as he bites off his arms, they go back and, uh, and has got the flame thrower on his back this whole time. It’s a good thing. He’s got enough gas in this thing for this, you know, for as long as the movie goes, But he blasts and they’re so busy blasting the hell out of corpse that he’s head somehow extends off of his body and Tara’s off and falls to the floor.

And then out of it, of his mouth, this sort of second tongue. Type appendage shoots out and, and, and grabs around like a desk or something. It starts pulling it across the floor. It’s like, nobody notices this because this is all happening behind this corpse. That’s been flamed throat and they’re all trying to deal with that.

And then this head suddenly sprouts legs, like a, like a spider. And to ice stocks and cross around to this desk. And by the time they end up putting the flames out and kind of seeing what’s going on, suddenly the spider head runs past them. And it’s such a great moment of this movie where they all just like turn around and look at it.

And their only reaction is just. What the fuck is that? Yeah,

Craig: I don’t remember if it’s at this point, but I, one of the characters says something like, are you fucking

Todd: kidding?

Craig: Oh,

Todd: that’s funny. And of course they blast that and it burns up as well. So, uh, you know, Norris is out of the picture and so is his head crap, but I mean, we’ve said it before, but the effects in this movie are incredible. Are

absolutely

Craig: they look really cool

Todd: and they hold up today, huge team working on this and the special effects guy, the poor guy, it was only like 21 years old.

And he had just come off of doing effects for another film. And they tried to get Rick Baker and some other more experienced people in here. But. Uh, they were busy with other projects. They pull the sky in and the effects budget is what ballooned the budget on this movie originally universalism, just going to spend like 200,000 on it.

And I think they ended up with 1.5 million going into the effects because they ended up with a huge crew. Like 35 people doing the effects on this and all kinds of puppeteers by the end of the movie, the creature required like 30 to 35 puppeteers just to get him, you know, going on on camera. And I think it’s well worth.

That, this is the thing that this is one of the really most notorious things about this movie is how great and in your face the creature effects are. And it’s what really sets it apart from the first film, which was John carpenter’s 10. And again, like we said, it was the thing that brought the criticism in the beginning, but I think at the end of the day, it’s.

It was a wise choice, you know, it was the thing that really, uh, put this movie, uh, ahead of the pack in terms of what could have been just sort of another invasion of the body snatchers film and elevated it just a little bit to incorporate a little bit of that creature monster element.

Craig: Yeah. Rob Barton is the name of the guy who did the effects and he.

At one point was living on set and was working around the clock point where he literally worked himself into exhaustion and not just, you know, being tired, like he was medical clay diagnosed with exhaustion. And so, uh, Stan Winston stepped in to do some of the effects. I think Stan Winston ended up.

Doing the dog thing, Rob and had previously worked on a werewolf movie or something like that. I think he said he was glad that Stan Winston was willing to do the dog. Affects because he was sick to death of working on dog effects. And so Stan Winston actually did work on some of the effects and he just gets kind of a brief mention in the end credits,

Todd: but yeah, and he insisted that he didn’t get, you know, credited.

He said really, Rob Martin does Rob Baton deserves all the credit. And I think he also worked with John Carpenter on the fog before this Rob Bart, Rob buttoned-up.

Craig: Gotcha. Well, and somewhere in that whole melee Clark had tried to attack McCready. Clark had been acting shady for. I thought he was one of the things, but he ends up because he tries to attack McCready, McCready.

He shoots him. And so he said, but McCready says something like the whole thing, the thing with Norris and seeing how Norris died. Right. And seeing how the head it separated itself and try to scape. He says, I think that this thing, every little piece of it. Is its own animal. And so like, just like the head tore itself away to try to protect itself, he gets the idea that if they do something to try to hurt any part of a thing, that it will react.

And so his idea is to draw blood from all of them and then use a hot needle to. See if the blood will react in any way. And it’s really smart. I don’t know if I would have thought about it, I guess. Yeah, no, this is taken directly from the original short story. And so they do this, everybody bleeds into Petri dishes and it’s a great scene that builds tension because every time he does it, I mean, I’m on the edge of my seat.

Is it going to happen? Is it going to happen? Is it going to happen that, so they do windows first. Nothing happens. They do, uh, McCready’s blood, nothing happens. Uh, they do the two dead guys, copper, nothing, Clark, nothing. Uh, Gary says something like, this is a bunch of bullshit. McCready’s like, yeah, I figured you’d say that.

We’ll do you last. And so then he goes to do Palmer, but because they have just in that split second before made Gary a red herring, you don’t expect. In that second, when he does Palmer’s blood for it to react. And it does react. The blood like jumps up out of the Petri dish and it’s such a great scare.

Cause I feel like they do such an excellent job of setting it up. So you’re waiting for it to happen. But then you think just in that moment, Oh, it’s not going to be this one. It’s going to be Gary. And then it pops out. Oh,

Todd: uh, It is awesome. It’s a great effect. And it’s like you said, it’s a perfectly timed scare and this is the part of the movie that I remember the most.

Honestly more than the head crab scene was this jump scare. Cause it’s like this thing just jumps out of the blood. It’s like the blood itself becomes a thing and, and Springs out of his hand in this Petri dish. It’s so cool. And then you realize it’s it’s, it’s it’s him. And so Palmer himself starts like convulsing, like.

Like he’s been discovered. So like, you know, he starts convulsing and the thing starts oozing out of him. He starts kinda melting. It’s super gross. They take care of him,

Craig: not before he kind of like. Eats windows.

Todd: Oh God. Like his head becomes a mouth.

Craig: Yeah. And he doesn’t eat him. Really. What he’s doing is he’s trying to assimilate with him to which he starts to do, but then they torch him to this, I guess, was an unintentional metaphor, I guess, for.

The AIDS crisis. Now, like I said, this blood test was written into the original, short story, which was, you know, decades before the AIDS crisis, but that idea of people being infected and you don’t know no who is carrying this infection and who isn’t, and that you can only find out through a blood test.

It wasn’t intended. To be a metaphor for the AIDS crisis, but it’s not as though he wasn’t unaware of it. He knew that people might read that into it and it actually serves well, you know, like it, it makes a lot of sense, uh, in that context and sadly, um, it’s. Somewhat timely for us today.

Todd: Yeah. Any, I mean, why is it that lately we’ve just been dealing with all these movies that take deal with infections and things spreading with people.

God. Yeah. But at least this scene leads to my absolute favorite line in the whole movie, which, you know, all these people, you know, several of them have been tied up because they’re under extra suspicion like Childs and Garry and whatnot, and being tied up, obviously in this circumstance when somebody who’s tied right next to you turns into this.

The thing is a bit of a liability for you. And by the time all this is done, Gary looks at them and they test Gary and Gary’s fine. And he looks at them and he says the best line in the whole movie.

Craig: I know you, gentlemen, I’ve been through a lot when you find the time, I’d

rather

Craig: not spend the rest of this winter time.

Todd: Oh great. Oh great.

Craig: But anyway, so they test all the rest of them that are their Nalls Childs and Garry, and they’re all fine. So seemingly the ones of them that are left there, which I think at this point is McCready, NOLs, Childs, and Gary. They’re all fine. So they go to test Blair, but when they go to the shed that they had him and he’s gone and they find a tunnel under the floor and, you know, Blair who is an older gentleman and, you know, also, you know, a portly gentleman, there’s no way that he dug this huge tunnel under there.

So he’s got to be a thing. So they go into the tunnel. And they see that he’s been building like a spaceship down there. And uh, somebody says, where was he wanting to go? And somebody else says anywhere, but here, because they know that this thing wants to get out of this isolated space so that it can continue to spread.

I guess at some point the power gets cut and I think it’s McCready says. With the generator, not running with the heater’s not running. It’s going to be like negative 40 here in any time. And we’re all gonna freeze to that. They say, you know, why, why would the thing want that? Right. And McCready says, it wants to freeze now.

Um, it can’t get out of here on its own. So it wants to just go to sleep until a rescue team comes and finds it and takes it somewhere else. And at that point he also says to them, rest of them, we’re not getting out of here alive, but neither is that thing. So they, they blow up Blair’s shed and their plan, I guess, is to blow up the whole camp.

I don’t know if they’re checking on the generator or they’re planning on turning it back on or they’re going to blow it up. I don’t know, but they find that it’s gone. And then they’re off. They kind of split up setting, uh, explosives in different. Places Blair pops up behind Gary and puts his hands into Gary’s face.

And so we assume that Gary is either assimilated or killed or both. And then novels go, it goes down a corridor, inspecting some sort of noise and he just disappears and we never see him again. Now, I guess there was a deleted scene. That showed him getting attacked by Blair too. And it was an effect scene where the thing would out of a box, like burst out of a crate and attack NOLs and assimilate him as well.

But carpenter ended up not liking the way that it looked. So he decided to just leave Nalls death I’m ambiguous. But at that point, a huge thing comes under the floor boards, uh, tremors style. Throws McCready off to the side bursts out of the floor. And it’s this huge like amalgamation of dogs and people, and Blair’s face is a part of it, but it’s just this big monstrous thing.

And of course, you know, it may not look as clean as some of our effects today. Look, but I’ve said it a bazillion times. I much prefer. My practical effect that at least. Really looks tangible. Yeah. It looks like something that you could reach out and touch. It doesn’t look like something in a video game.

And so I think it looks great, but Mac blows it up pretty unceremoniously. Really? Yeah. And that’s kind of the end. Like he blows up the whole outpost and then he’s just sitting there kind of in the rebel and then Childs walks up to him. And he claims that he saw Blair wandering around. So he went out, looking for him and he got lost in the storm is just found his way back because of the explosion and the two of them sit there and they kind of talk about like, how do we know if we’re both human?

And Max’s something like, well, if either of us has any surprises, I don’t think any of us are in, in the condition to do anything about it. And so they say, well, so then what are we going to do? And McCready says, well, let’s just sit here a while and see what happens. Cut to black and that’s the end.

Todd: It’s appropriate.

I mean, this movie went through a number of endings. They shot some endings. This, everybody had an opinion about what the, what the endings of this film should be. You know, John Carpenter had this kind of nihilistic ending and the studio thought it should be a little more upbeat. They should thought they should show, you know, the kind of getting the better of the thing once and for all.

But I think it’s really appropriate. And. Again, sadly commentary on today. Like at this point, like what can you do about this? Like, this is like Pandora’s box has been opened and this thing can affect any of us. We really don’t know who it is. And the movie ends, I’m wondering if either Childs or McCready or both of them are infected and we’re just sort of left to hope.

That may be at the end of the day, whatever it is is contained there in the Arctic with their deaths. We know they’re going to die. We presume or are they going to freeze to death? And there’s going to be a thing that comes back later,

Craig: you know? Right. That’s the thing. If one of them is a thing, if they freeze that we know doesn’t kill it.

So it could just be in suspended animation until somebody comes along and finds it, which in theory. Somebody eventually would carpenter has flip flopped on this. You know, he allowed the film to be licensed for a video game. And in the video game, both guys are rescued and neither one is a thing. And he has said, That’s cannon with the movie, but then he’s also said in other interviews that one of them definitely is a thing.

Um, so he’s gone back and forth on it. There are other theories in the 2000. Okay. Or it was 2013, 2017, somewhere, I think 2013. They made a precall and in the prequel it’s established that when the thing yeah, assimilates and replicates a, an organism, it does not replicate any. External nonorganic materials.

So let’s say you had a pacemaker. It wouldn’t replicate that piercings. It wouldn’t replicate. And in that last scene, child still has his earrings. So some fans think he can’t be because it wouldn’t be there. Um, but we don’t know anything about McCready, but I like the ending because it seems appropriately nihilistic.

You know, that I, I didn’t want. Anybody to be rescued. And that was something they considered to have at least McCready be rescued in the end and fly off, you know, be flown off in a helicopter. I think it’s much more in keeping with the tone of the movie that we can hope that the threat has been destroyed, but we don’t have hope for these remaining people.

Yeah. And I think it’s, it’s, uh, appropriate. And again, ultimately it’s, it’s a dark. Film, as long as we’ve talked about it, really, the plot is very simple. It’s just so many times. We talk about movies and we say, well, the plot’s pretty simple. Just not a lot happens. Well, the plot here is very simple, but a lot does happen and it keeps you on your toes and it keeps you interested.

And, you know, at an hour and 50 minutes, um, that’s pushing my attention span, but it does not. It feels short. It feels like a short movie because it goes so fast.

Todd: And I think it’s a shame, you know, I, uh, I’m going to quote John Carpenter who was, um, quoted in 2008 and he was talking about how this movie was received.

And he said, quote, I take every failure heart. The one I took the hardest was the thing. My career would have been different. If that one had been a big hit. The movie was hated even by science fiction fans, they thought that I had betrayed some kind of trust and the piling on was insane. Even the original movies director, Christian Nivea was dissing me.

It’s so hard to believe that now. You know, I think, yeah. I mean, the movie is great. I love it. And I think it’s tense and it’s got special effects and they’re done well and they hold up today. The ending is very appropriate. Like you said, it doesn’t cop out. It never gets cheesy. And the acting is great.

It’s a great ensemble cast. I can’t really find a fault with this movie. So, uh, I love it. And I, and I think a Wilford Brimley, of course, uh, his, his part in it is big and he does it

Craig: and we didn’t talk about him. We didn’t talk about him a whole lot. Just because things move so quickly that he does a really good job in this movie.

And he did a good job. I thought, and I, this is the writing too. I at points, I suspected that he was a thing. And at some times I didn’t, I thought surely he can’t be when he was destroying all the communication stuff and destroying the transportation stuff that doesn’t make sense. A thing would want to get out.

But then later when, uh, McCready is talking to him through the window of his little shed, right. He’s like, I’m fine now. I’m okay. I calmed down, I just went out, please just let me out. Then I started to think kind of shady. So he had good nuances of character. He played it well. So I think despite the fact that he didn’t like the movie, I thought that he did a great job in it.

And I thought that he was cast did really well because he doesn’t seem. Like a threatening presence. It just works. You take somebody who seems grandfatherly and innocuous and, and then he ends up being the big, bad, uh, it just, it, it really worked for me. And I’m glad that we chose to do this, uh, Wilford Brimley.

It’s not like he’s somebody that I’ve admired my whole life or anything, but like I said, he’s just always. My entire life been on my cultural radar. You just, you know who this guy is, you know, his voice, you associate things with him. Um, and so I think it’s fitting that we at least pay a little bit of respect.

Todd: Absolutely. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode of two guys in a chainsaw. If you enjoyed it, please share with friends. You can find us online. You can find our Facebook page or our website to guys.red, 40 net.com. Please leave a message there anywhere you find us really. And let us know what you thought of this movie.

Give us some suggestions for films coming up as well until next time, I’m Todd.

Craig: and I’m Craig

Todd: with two guys and a chainsaw.

This week we pay tribute to Kelly Preston by reviewing the only horror movie we could find with her in it – Stephen King’s killer car movie, Christine, directed by none other than John Carpenter.

She’s not in it much, to be honest, but it was fun discussing this one nonetheless, and her brief performance in it. Hear our balanced take on one of Carpenter’s more mainstream yet less successful films.

Christine (1983)

Episode 225, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: and I’m Craig

Todd: Once again, we find ourselves in the wake of an actor’s death. This time around it was actress Kelly Preston, married to John Travolta and has been in quite a few movies. We looked up for some movies that she had been in that were horror. And I think we found one and that horror movie is Christine.

So this week we are doing John carpenter’s. Christine, written by Stephen King, as a tribute to Kelly Preston. So, uh, yeah, Craig, I didn’t really know a lot about Kelly Preston coming in and yeah. Then as you and I got talking a little bit about her realized she I’ve actually been in quite a few movies that I knew and loved.

Space Camp from the 80’s. Twins. You mentioned she met, uh, John Travolta on the set of a film called Back In The USSR. Is that right?

Craig: I think, I think that’s what it’s called. I remember that song featured prominently in the movie. It was a goofy movie about like the, how the KGB was setting up this town in.

Russia where they were trying to imitate Americans. Basically what they were doing is they were training spots. Um, but the town that they set up was like a 1950s town. They brought in John Travolta and some other guy. You know, not, they didn’t know what they were doing, but to like modernize the town so that the spies would be better or whatever.

It was a really goofy, goofy movie. But, uh, she was really cute and yeah, I think I picked Christine because, well, I, I, it must’ve just been the first horror movie that I saw that she was in. I think that she was also in, from Dustin. Until John,

Todd: maybe she had some, some part in it. How was it a big part or small part?

Craig: I don’t know, but I picked Christine just seeing that she was in it. And then I watched the movie, which I had seen before and realized that she has a really tiny, tiny role. She’s only on screen for, I don’t know, five minutes max. And, uh, she plays this beautiful cheerleader who Pines over. One of our main guys from the movie and he overlooks her in favor of the lead female in the movie.

Who’s name is Lee played by, uh, Alexandra, Paul from Baywatch and lots of other things. But what I kept thinking throughout the movie, they kept going on and on about how like Lee was the most gorgeous girl in school and Kelly Preston plays Roseanne, and I thought she was awake. I thought the guy was really stupid.

Gorgeous blonde cheerleader, like throwing herself at him, but he’s interested in the bookish Lee, but that’s okay, whatever. Um, she’s young and beautiful and, uh, in this movie and, and she remained beautiful throughout her life. You know, she struggled apparently with breast cancer for a couple of years and she kept it very private.

Um, I think that her death came as a surprise to everybody. Except those who knew her closely and personally, it was sad. I was really sad when I heard it. Yeah. But I respected her decision to keep her health struggles, private, and was glad that she was able to do that. I think that she went peacefully, you know, with family around her and she was far too young to pass.

She has young children. Um, that family has suffered tragedy before they lost their oldest son to an accident. He also struggled with a Kawasaki syndrome and so they’ve had their fair share of trouble, but. I’m sure that she’s resting peacefully now. So I’m glad that we’re taking at least a moment to celebrate her because I had a big crush on her from the movie space camp.

I loved that movie when I was a kid and she was super, super cute in that movie. And so, yeah, that’s why we picked Christina.

Todd: You know, I also watching this movie got the feeling that maybe there are some deleted scenes.

Craig: There are

Todd: like maybe her role. Was probably a little more expanded because she just gets kind of, right.

Yeah. There’s a pretty big deal. In the beginning of the film where we start following this kid named Dennis, who’s kind of the nice looking jockey football player guy. Who has a more nerdy friend named RNA with the huge nerdy glasses. That’s how, you know, he’s a nerd because it’s an right. He picks him up from his parents’ house and his parents are kind of giving him a hard time, uh, RND, a hard time.

They immediately start having this. Sex talk, you know, just very teenage boy

Craig: seniors. I figured it’s about time that we, uh, we got you late. You don’t like this here. Huh? I don’t need a girl to get late. What about Gail? Justin? Her Gail, just in case I don’t like her mustache. You aren’t. I mean, what do you care if you get a little hair on your mouth?

Huh? Okay. Uh, how about Sally Hayes? How she’s cute. She’s. Sophomore watch is a walking sperm bank. Arnie. I know, come on. I don’t think I have the minimum deposit to open the account. You know what I mean? And are you kidding? You carry your life savings between your legs. Come on, Arnie. Maybe

Todd: it’ll just speed off.

When they’re in the hallway of the school, he points out and says, Hey, have you seen a super, super hot chick? Uh, which is, as you said, Lee, walking down the hall. And in the meantime, there are these little bits where Roseanne is trying to flirt with Dennis kind of flirts with him. He kind of gives her the cold shoulder.

He kind of looks over her shoulder. You know, there’s a bit in the library where he finally approaches Lee, Roseanne thinks he’s going to be approaching her. So she kind of perks up and then he walks right past her. And I feel like we never see her again after this,

Craig: we see her one more time. Uh, she’s cheerleading at.

Football game. Um, and, and still, you know, watching Dennis, you know, fawning over Dennis. Um, and then I think that’s it. I think you’re right. I don’t think we do see her again.

Todd: Hi Dennis.

Craig: Hey Roseanne, how are you doing okay. They’re going to let you play football this year. Oh yeah. When doc says I’m as good as new.

Then, I guess I’ll be seeing you out there.

Well TTFN and so, you know, there, there’s not much to say, you know, I think Kelly Preston was a perfectly fine actress. You know, I never had any criticism, negative criticism about her performances. She’s just, you know, very beautiful and charming somebody that I would have certainly been drawn to as a young man, but you’re right.

She’s just not, uh, given a whole lot. To do here. Uh, she’s she’s not really an integral part of the plot, which is unfortunate because I would have like to have seen more of her and don’t get me wrong. Alexandra Paul who plays Lee is also very beautiful. I don’t want to make it sound like, I think she’s some kind of troll.

She’s certainly not. She’s very beautiful too. Kelly Preston just kind of has more of an all American. Look, you know, and especially in this movie, she’s blonde and thin and perky and

Todd: yeah, like Marty McFly, his mom feel tour didn’t you kind of get a little bit, you know, But you’ve read the book, right? I assume you

Craig: have not.

No, this is one of the few Stephen Kim books that I’ve never read, which, uh, I say that. And then when I try to catalog all the ones I have read, he’s written so many, um, there are actually quite a few that I have read, and this is one of them, but I’d be interested too, because I read that during this time.

And really throughout his career, Stephen King has been so prolific and he was so in demand that the rights for the movie were sold. And I think the movie was already in production or pre-production before the book was even published. I don’t remember who it was. John Carpenter ended up directing it. So I don’t remember if it was the screenwriter,

Todd: bill Phillips, a screenwriter

Craig: who wasn’t really interested in pursuing a movie about a killer car.

They thought that that was too silly, but. When he read the book, he was like, yeah, this is good. Uh, and, and so he decided to do it. And was it him, was it bill Phillips or was it John Carpenter? Who, one of them had a choice between either Cujo or this?

Todd: No Phillips. Yeah. He read both. Books. He thought Cujo was silly.

So he decided to do this one instead.

Craig: I have read Cujo and I think Cujo is an excellent book. And we’ve talked about it on the podcast. I think it’s a great movie to this movie. You know, there’s so much talent attached to it. Of course. Stephen King’s name is huge. John Carpenter is a huge director. It’s got not super, super famous people.

In fact, they specifically chose what their main. Actors to go with people who are a little bit less prominent, some more prominent people, auditioned for the roles. Scott bale, I think auditioned Brooke shields auditioned. And there were a couple of other big names who auditioned. They decided to go with some lesser known people, but.

There’s a bunch of teen boys in the movie. There’s our two main ones who you’ve already mentioned. And then there’s basically like a group of bullies. And that group of bullies is like a cornucopia of teen male actors from the eighties. Yes. None of them stars, but you will recognize every single one of them from some teen movie or some horror movie of the eighties.

Um, so there’s lots of familiar faces. There’s lots of big talent and the movie just didn’t do very well critically or financially. And I’m not exactly sure why.

Todd: Yeah. I’m trying to figure that out too. I mean, I think I have problems with the movie, but I’m not sure that that is why it didn’t do so well, it almost feels as it was going on.

I was like, gosh, this is almost just like Carrie. Again, you

Craig: know, just,

Todd: and it’s, you know, it’s about this nerdy kid who, you know what, with Carrie, you know, she has she’s, she’s totally teased and everything. And then she finds, she has these powers and she uses these powers eventually, you know, to get revenge on the people who were pretty relentless and brutal towards her, this is the same kind of deal.

This guy gets this car and the car has this sort of magical quality where it sort of seems to possess him as much as. It itself has some sentience and as the movie goes on, then the car kills people are bullying him, you know, until the final conclusion that ends in tragedy. So

Craig: yeah, it is, there are a lot of parallels and it’s an odd premise, you know?

Well, like the, the screenwriter, if I had just heard this premise with like an evil killer car, like that’s kind of dumb, but I do think that there is promise here, there, even though I haven’t read the book, I know that there are some differences between the book and the movie in the movie. The first scene that we see is the car on the assembly line.

Like, it looks like it’s done, but it’s still on the assembly line. The song bad to the bone is playing over this opening scene and the car injures and then specter and then kills, right? Another guy who gets into it and drop some cigar Ash on the seat. Um, and it doesn’t really show how it killed that guy.

He, his body is just disgusting. So the movie suggests that this car is just inherently evil, like off the assembly line in the book, it was just a normal car. But then the guy who owned it became so obsessed with it that somehow he developed some kind of like psychic bond or something with it that gave it sentience and allowed it to do things.

That’s, it’s mentioned in the movie, like the previous owner has mentioned and the things that happened to his family, like the deaths of all his family were somehow tied to the car and his death. But the book suggests that it was that relationship. That bond between the car and the owner that gave the car, its energy.

And in the book, when the original owner died, Christine, the car lost that energy. And that’s why when Arnie discovers the car, Within the first 10 minutes of the movie, he kind of falls in love with it and starts fixing it up. It’s like he reignites that energy and we see it in various ways. You know, he fixes up the car himself the first time, but then once he’s established this bond with it, the car starts to be able to regenerate itself.

It starts to be able to do things on its own. Like he doesn’t even have to be. Able to drive it. We see ’em throughout the course of the movie that the mileage keeps rolling back as though it’s gaining energy.

Todd: Yeah. That’s a cool premise actually like that, that notion.

Craig: And I don’t think that it’s executed poorly.

What I found my self thinking was that this would have been better suited for like an hour long episode of an anthology. I just didn’t feel like there was really enough meat to the story. For almost two hours because the movie is an hour and 15 minutes long, it felt a little overly drawn out. I think that it could have been paced a little bit better, but of course they’re going for a feature film.

And so they need a certain link so they can put it in the theater and make money. So I get

Todd: that. I also. Felt like it was a bit padded and you know, that’s why I asked if you read the book because as we all know now, Stephen King’s books can be pretty long, but they’re usually pretty involved and intricate.

And so the story that sometimes gets translated to the movie is considerably different or is missing key elements of the book. Usually abbreviated for time. In this case, I felt like there must be huge chunks missing. Like for example, Kelly Preston’s character. I felt like they had it set her up. To have more at stake or involvement in the movie later, but she never does.

And I sort of felt the whole movie was a little chunky this way, where it lost focus, or I should say it just changed focus a lot. Usually with the film, you know, there’s kind of a focus on one main character story. Like we, more or less focus on the story, the plot around one main character in this movie, the way it starts out, you start to feel this is Dennis’s story, or at least that everything’s being told through his lens.

And I guess it kind of is, but there’s so much of dentists in the first, at least. Quarter, if not third of the movie, then when RNA starts acting weird, there are huge changes. Right. You know, it’s like we don’t get to see and he’s transformation. We spend a bunch of time following Dennis. And then the next time we see RNA, boom, he looks a little strange and he’s kinda got a collar popped out on his shirt.

Uh, and then weird stuff happens and Dennis is concerned and then we’re following Dennis for a little while and the boom. We sort of see Arnie again and there’s something with the car. And then there’s a whole sequence kind of in the middle where the car. Is the focus of the car. It clearly is the villain of the movie.

And then it kind of, which is focus over to Arnie a little bit more. And then when it comes toward the end, the movie it’s that classic, you know, the friend is concerned and so he brings the girlfriend along and they try to figure out how they’re going to help RNA. And they’re going to kind of save the day.

That just sort of feels kind of tacked on at the end. You know,

Craig: it is

Todd: like this gradual progressive transition in all of these, I would say three main story threads. It was like, we just got bits and pieces of it and it would jump from thread to thread being the main focus of the movie. So it led to some moments where I just kind of scratch my head thinking.

Yeah, I guess this is, this is the limitation of a killer car movie. It’s just a car. I mean, it’s like the killer doll movies, this thing, I mean, climb a ladder, go to the second floor. And you’re away from it. And so how sinister can you make a car through a whole two hour movie?

Craig: Right. I agree with what you’re saying is that the focus is weird because in the beginning, like you said, it seems like it’s focused on this relationship between this kind of nerdy guy and this popular guy and, and Dennis, the popular guy has played by John Stockwell.

Again, very familiar. He was one of the pilots and top gun. Um, he was in a. Cute scifi movie, my science project for me, eighties, that I really liked. He’s still working. He was in Teresa’s, but he’s like the nice jock, uh, and RNA and Arnie has been his best friend apparently since they were kids. And so, and you get this establishing scene where they’re supposed to meet, you know, even though the other guys and their friend group kinda.

Take little jabs at RNA, it’s all pretty innocent, but then Arnie gets really bullied by this. This 40 year old kid.

Todd: So typically

Craig: how many,

Todd: how many times did he flunk out of high school?

Craig: My God, this guy looked like he could have been Arnie’s dad, but a buddy and he’s got his gang of goons and you know, it’s serious bullying where they’re taunting and they’re messing up. Messing with him, buddy, even threatened them with a switchblade and Dennis intervenes, but he’s no match for a whole gang of folks.

It eventually gets broken up by a teacher and the bully vows for whatever reason to get Arnie later on, which is kind of stupid. Like Arnie never, never did anything to him. Like you singled this kid out, you picked on him, you got in trouble for picking on him. It’s not his fault, but I guess that’s bullying mentality

Todd: admitted under pressure from the teacher that broke things up, that, that the bully had an, a switchblade on them.

But yeah, that’s it. You’re right. It’s just, it’s, it’s a little silly and it doesn’t have that. This is where it is so different. And so inferior, I think to carry is because we spent so much time with Carrie. And she is such a sympathetic character, whereas Arnie is just like this nice kind of goofy guy doesn’t really do anything wrong.

Most people seem to think he’s okay. And kind of like him, except for this group of bullies who are dicks to him. And his main problem is his parents now, you know, Carrie, right? One of her biggest problems was her mom, but I mean, Arnie’s parents come across as most of Stephen King’s parents do and all of his novels.

As you just overbearing yet. They’re not Carrie’s mom,

Craig: you know? Oh no, no. She was mentally ill. I mean, his parents are just kind of assholes, but I don’t know all teenage, well, I don’t know. I can’t say all teenagers, but when I was a teenager, I clashed with my parents were stupid.

Todd: Well, they’re just kind of strict, you know,

Craig: you’re right in that Carrie, such as sympathetic.

Character and Arnie starts out that way. He just seems really meek, but nice and funny and unassuming, you know, appreciative of his friendship with this guy. And then they find this car it’s just parked, not along the side of the road, but like in somebody’s yard junkie yard and Arnie’s immediately drawn to it.

He wants to buy it. The guy who sells it. To him, his name is George and he’s this old crusty guy. And I’m like, who is that? And so I looked it up and it’s, it’s, it’s Roberts blossom. And he’s the old scary guy from across the street on home alone. Yup.

Todd: Yeah,

Craig: much creepier in this movie than in home alone. My asshole brother bought her back in September 57. That’s when you got your new model year in September. Brand new. She was, she had the smell of a brand new car. That’s just about the finest smell in the world. I said maybe pussy. When he got her, she had six miles on the odometer, goddamn roller went through hell and back with Christine.

Your brother loves this car so much. Why is he selling it? Cause he’s stone cold there. That’s why I had six weeks ago. His daughter choked to death in it, and his wife killed herself, soften it, and then he ended up killing himself in it. But none of this really, and I don’t even remember if all of that information comes out.

Right. In the beginning, the army is just laser focused on buying this car and he’s willing to give whatever the guy asks. And, um, so he ends up buying it for 250 bucks. Arnie is so sympathy. Then he fixes up this car, which takes no time at all to restore this car. He, his parents won’t let them have it at home.

So we asked to take it to this like self service garage with this crusty old guy who lets them keep it there and lets him use like spare parts from the junk yard. So long as he like helps out around the shop and stuff. But it doesn’t take him any time to restore this card mint condition.

Todd: Yeah. Where did he get these skills?

Craig: Well, he said that he was taking auto shop, but like he had just started taking it that year. Well, I don’t think you learned to completely restore a car. Maybe it’s the supernatural influence of the car. I don’t know, but my point is the moment the car is done. Arnie changes like that.

Todd: Can, it gets confidence and cocky.

Craig: Yeah. And like he stops wearing his nerdy glasses and he starts, you know, wearing like hip clothes. But not just that, he also immediately start getting pretty jerky. One of the first things that we, Dennis notices it, you know, at first and they kind of talk a little bit and like RNs. Standing up to his parents more, but that’s really, really quick.

And then the next thing we see. Is Dennis’s playing football and Arnie pulls up in the car and like, you know, like some cool guy yeah. Jacket or whatever. And he’s got Lee with him and Arnie knows that Dennis was interested in Lee. And so it just seems kind of out of character that he would pursue this girl that he knows that his best friend was interested in and right in that scene, like, because I guess Dennis is noticing them.

He gets in a terrible football accident and is sidelined in the hospital for the next 45 minutes. Yeah. So, so that focus is completely shifted back to Arnie and the car. And by this point Arnie’s not so sympathetic anymore.

Todd: Yes. Well, he’s kind of like the villain of the movie and that becomes a little problematic, right.

Because. Who do you root for? It’s it’s not like this sort of, there’s a sense of possession, right? I mean, there’s this sense, like when he, because he’s so changed because he’s so attached to the car and also his, his clothes in his hairstyle and everything become distinctly like fifties ish. And so there’s, I think that’s supposed to be a subtle nod to this symbiosis that he has with this 1957 Plymouth fury.

By the way Stephen King chose this car. Cause he deliberately wanted a car that didn’t already have, you know, like a legend sort of attached to it. But it’s cool that it’s called the fury. I guess that’s

Craig: appropriate. It’s a really cool car too. Yeah,

Todd: it is. And it looks sinister when it’s up and around. I think they did a really good job with the characterization of the car, but here’s the problem, like you said, so now he’s not sympathetic anymore.

Plus he has a killer car, then they are going after the bullies. That’s what happens next is that those bullies, a one by one get picked off by the car. And I pretty sure, although, I don’t know for certain, I think it’s a little ambiguous. It’s not like a RNA is driving the car. It’s that the car is sentience and the car is going after these bullies.

One at a time,

Craig: the supernatural elements of the car are kind of established before that, like at one point when Dennis is concerned before he gets injured, I think when he’s concerned about Arnie, he goes to look at the car and he notices that it’s like imperfect condition and he notices that the mileage has gone down.

But when he tries to get into the car, the radio turns on and it’s, I think. Is it Chuck barrier a little Richard, I don’t remember, but keep on knocking, but you can’t come in. Which, by the way, I think my favorite thing about the movie is the music they make great in this movie.

Todd: It’s the way Christine talks, right?

It’s through the center of the radio star.

Craig: Yeah, right. And so there’s that, and that kind of spooks him. And then he has a date with not, he, uh, Arnie has a date with Lee at the drive in, and this kind of feels like it comes out of nowhere too. Like she’s kind of standoffish making out. I thought it was such a funny make-out scene because it’s like, Carpenter made a point of showing, Oh, look, he’s trying to touch her boobs and then made a point of, Oh, look, she’s rubbing his crown

Todd: like close up zoom in.

Craig: Yeah. Right. But then she pulls away and she runs out of the car and he chases after her. And she talks about how she’s jealous of the car, which is just weird.

Todd: It’s out of nowhere.

Craig: Yeah, it is out of nowhere and he’s like, well, that’s weird. I thought girls were supposed to be jealous of other girls and she goes, well, who do you spend more time with?

I guess, meaning that he spends more time with his car. Okay. Whatever. So

Todd: we have to take her word at it because we don’t know. Cause we really haven’t seen the what’s been going on.

Craig: He gets her back in the car and then it’s raining at the drive in and the windshield wiper. Stops or like falls off or something.

So he gets out to deal with that and we see his door lock on its own. And, uh, Lee takes a bite of a sandwich and all of a sudden the radio comes on. I don’t remember what song is that? Some sort of. Pointed song and the, the interior glows really bright and she starts choking. Like the car can make people choke on food.

Yeah.

Todd: It’s really bizarre, right? Yeah. I, that part I didn’t get. And he’s unable to get in. She’s unable to get out. And somehow a guy who’s walking by the, she opened the door, he breaks a window. I don’t know.

Craig: She, she, she gets it unlocked on her side. Arnie’s on the driver’s side, trying to get in, but it’s locked.

She gets her side unlocked and somebody else gets her out and gives her the Heimlich maneuver. And she’s okay. But she’s all shaken up by it. And that kind of. It’s not the like straw that breaks the camel’s back, but their relationship is really strained after that. I guess he apologizes to her. And that leads up to what you were talking about the next day they’re together.

And he says, look, I just have to stop by the garage to get. My wallet out of Christine. Like, it seems like, you know, they’re not going to take the car cause she’s weird about it or whatever. But when he goes in, he finds that buddy and his gang have completely destroyed the car and we got to see that happen.

Todd: And that was kind of cool. I’m sure they had a lot of fun actually smashing that car. Probably they went through, I mean, I read that at least 15% of the budget of this movie was on cars alone. They went through like 15 or. Or 20 different

Craig: cars, not more like 28, I think

Todd: not all a furious. Some of them were, you know, cars that kind of looked like it when some of them were plastic and things like that.

But. Uh, but yeah, I even car enthusiasts were actually a little pissed when they saw the movie. I think that so many cars had to have these classic cars had to go through the ringer for it. But, uh, on the other hand, it highlighted this fury, which before, you know, nobody knew about, so what are you going to do?

You know, it’s like one or the other and yeah. And so because Christine got beat and smashed up, he is furious and he’s pissed.

Craig: And he lashes out at her. Yeah. Not violently, but nearly, you know, like very aggressively,

Todd: like it’s her fault or something. Oh, you wanted to see this. It it’s all a little contrived, I think, you know, or at least it’s kind of pushed on us.

Like if there was something that kind of built up to this, if there’s some. Earlier encounters that they had, or, you know, something we could kind of know about this, more detail about the strain of their relationship. Maybe this all would have kind of come off, but it’s just like, yeah. Arnie is going a little crazy.

Craig: Well, I, I, I think that what. The what’s meant to be implied is that it’s, it’s the influence of the car. That’s making him be this way, but it’s like, it’s a symbiotic relationship. Like they feed them the off of one, another, uh, Arnie in the car and it’s having a negative influence on. Him because in moments he still tries to be sweet and nice to her, but he’s just on edge all the time.

And especially now, but that’s when, you know, after he chases her off, he kind of starts talking to the car and he says, it’s going to be okay. We’ll, you know, we’ll, we’ll fix you. And we hear like some crumpling metal and, and he stands back. He sees that. The engine has repaired itself. And so he takes a pause and then he just says, Okay.

Show me as Bill’s a kind of knows. Well, you know, like it’s so weird, but it’s an amazing scene then what the car reconstructs it. So

Todd: it’s fantastic. The special effects here are just great. He stands back in the spotlight and we get these closeup images of the car and the panels that were crumpled and crumbling and going snapping back to nothing.

Of course, this is all done in reverse,

Craig: but

Todd: it’s so convincing that it’s great. I mean, it’s a delicious scene to watch. And the sound design here is amazing. Actually, I think the sound design in the whole movie is quite good, both the sound and the, uh, you know, when you’ve got a car movie, you gotta have good sound design.

Right. But yeah, that in the music is, is both pretty good. And John Carpenter did the music as well. I’ve always enjoyed John Carpenter scores, even though you can. Kind of tell them from a mile away it’s not orchestral, you know, John Williams type stuff, but he can really, he can really bang on a synthesizer.

Actually, the music reminded me now that I went off on that tangent, the music reminded me a little bit of Halloween. I mean, almost felt like a modification of the Halloween score.

Craig: Yeah. All of the neighborhood’s scenes, like, like Arnie’s parents’ house and the neighborhood they live in that was all filmed in the same neighborhood.

Halloween was filmed in. And so it’s very reminiscent and look, um, Halloween too.

Todd: So here we are,

Craig: marks the point, right? Exactly. So here we are. I mean, that sets up. Kind of the, I don’t know, I guess what you would call the scary part of the movie.

Todd: Yeah. Which is just, like I said earlier, watching the car go after these people.

So it goes after the big, big bully first buddy or whatever. Um, no, it goes after one of the other kids first. Yeah. One of the other kids,

Craig: the, the guy that, the, the fat, the fat one that I don’t know, say I don’t know the actor’s name, but I recognized him. He played the gross older brother in the curse, which is maybe we should do time.

Um, But apparently this is the kid who took a dump on the dashboard of the car when they destroyed it. And so he’s the first one to get it now. Carpenter made the decision to black out all of these scenes. These death scenes happen at night and carpenter made the decision to black out the windows so that you couldn’t tell whether Arnie was driving the car or not.

And I was a little bit unclear, especially in this first one, whether or not Arnie was driving the car later on. We know that when the other bullies get killed, he wasn’t, we know that for sure. But in this first one, I don’t know. And so I don’t really know if we can even really implicate army in these murders.

Todd: No, I don’t think we

Craig: there’s. There’s a possibility. That he had nothing to do with it. Now he’s not upset about it. In fact, he thinks that they got what was coming to them, but I don’t know that he actually perpetrated it. I think it was just the car.

Todd: Well, there’s nothing right. There’s absolutely nothing about this that we don’t really get Arnie’s reaction to the murders.

We don’t get, uh, any of RNA talking to Christine saying, Oh, I can’t believe what you did or I’m glad about what you did or. Anything like that. I mean, there’s nothing, it’s just, you know, emceeing with Arnie start seeing in the, at night with one of these bullies and the car is going after them. Uh, and then the next scene is daytime again.

And then Henry Dean Stanton’s character gets thrown in here all of a sudden as a detective. And he feels just thrown in here as well. He’s only got like a couple small scenes and it feels like almost the obligatory. Detective who pops in. Who’s supposed to put some additional, no pressure on the antagonist or whatever of the story, but.

It’s a little weird, the questions he’s asking him. I think he comes in after the second murder. When the kid

Craig: that’s

Todd: just the first one, just kid backs himself into, um, into like a dead end. And there are

Craig: these walls loading dock or something.

Todd: Yeah. They’re these narrow wall. Actually. I really liked this scene because it just showed how relentless this car is because it’s got him back in there.

However, the car is a little too wide to fit through. But it doesn’t care. Like the car just burns rubber and slowly crumbles itself into this narrow space to pin this guy against the wall. And I guess several men, half. Yeah. Now we don’t see that happen. And that’s another option. The thing about this movie is that there’s.

Is there any Gore in this movie at all?

Craig: Not really. We, we, I mean, we only see the aftermath of one death. Like, like I have a feeling that you’re absolutely right. I think that this whole detective sob subplot must have been severely truncated from the novel. It just kind of serves to antagonize Arnie more,

Todd: but it’s not a real threat.

Craig: Not really. I mean, because the car is supernatural, you know, is he going to discover? I don’t know. I mean, he tries to press him on it, but the detective doesn’t really have a leg to stand on. Um, right after that, there’s just a real quick scene where Arnie calls Lee and is nice to her for like one second and then just totally blows up on her when she kind of brushes him off and.

Calls her a bitch and is really horrible. And then we get another scene of Christine going after the other bullies and she chases buddy. And one of his friends in. Buddy’s car and they at a gas station where the bullies get out and Christine smashes the car. And, uh, one of their other bully friends works in this service station.

The only one left outside of the service station, his buddy, the other two ended up inside and Christine just drives into the gas station and blows it up.

Todd: Like, yeah. Takes a whiz.

So wisdom gas on the floor of the gas station and then runs out and blows it up. Yeah, the whole place explodes. It’s a really cool scene. I mean, It’s going to be tricky. And this was kind of what I’ve said earlier. Like it’s a killer car. It’s got to stay on the ground. It’s got wheels. It has limitations.

All you gotta do is climb a ladder or something. Get away from it somehow or behind like a brick wall. But this, this car is pretty relentless and what it’s willing to smash through. And because we’ve already seen that it’s able to regenerate itself. You know, we, as an audience, understand that. It doesn’t matter how smashed up this car gets, it’s going to be able to go right.

Puncturing the tires, aren’t going to do anything, you know, the end, the front end gets smashed up doesn’t matter. So it’s pretty brutal, you know, in how it goes after them into there.

Craig: Part of the movie, I really felt like was. Jaws with a car. That’s what it felt to me, the car, it felt like the shark from jaws and it was just relentlessly after these people, but, and, and the big explosion, like the whole service station explodes, and it’s a huge explosion.

It looks great. Um, but. You, you get the suggestion that Christine kind of crushes one of the bullies in the gas station. And then, and then the guy gas station explode. So you know that both of the ones in there were killed. We don’t really see it. And then. Another amazing part. Christine comes rolling out of this Inferno and she’s totally engulfed in flames.

And

Todd: so cool.

Craig: It is so cool to see this card totally engulfed in flames, driving down the road and it chases buddy down the road. And again, you know, get off the street, dumb ass. It eventually just catches up with them and runs him over and you see his body and flames rolling down the street. That is the only carnage really that we see in the movie.

And that it’s not gory, there is no blood. I mean, it’s disturbing to see a person on fire, but you know, in fact, this movie, um, didn’t have enough violence get an R rating. And the only other option at the time, because PG 13, wasn’t an option yet was PG. So. Carpenter intentionally inserted a whole bunch of Fox into the movie so that it would get the R rating because they thought if it was PG, nobody would see it.

And they were probably right. Well then later they were criticized for the language of the movie. Bye. Even though the movie wasn’t super financially successful, had it been rated PG, I mean, I think that would have been. The last nail in the coffin,

Todd: nobody wants to see a PG rated horror movie, you know,

Craig: not,

Todd: not like, not from Stephen King, you know?

Yeah. That was really cool. And it was like the car from hell just completely inflamed. And again, in this era, when. We know there was no CGI just to see all of this great practical stuff happening and the stunts that were being done. And, Oh, it’s really that’s the, that was the nice part of the movie for me.

I just really got behind this demon car that could regenerate itself and we got to see all that, you know, we don’t need to see the Gore, but I could see this car and flames going down the street. Not, not bad. Pretty good. Visuals. You know, John, carpenter’s no slouch.

Craig: Yeah, no, he certainly not. And, and that was really fun to watch, but then it’s kinda, like you said before, then the movie takes a turn like that chapter of the movie is over, you know, the bullies are all dead.

Todd: Tina’s nobody left to kill

Craig: no enemy now what? And so now things get weird. Okay. And I have to say that Dennis seems like a really, really nice guy. That he kind of moves in on our girl, which I thought was kind of a Dick move. Now it’s not entirely him. Like she kind of calls him because she’s worried about Arnie and.

It seemed really out of character. Like, you know, they’re just hanging out, talking about how worried about army they are, but she’s awfully friendly with him, you know,

Todd: like very

Craig: touchy and like has her arm around him and like stroking his arm and like laying her head on his chest and like, come on you guys.

Um, but then it becomes about them. And they just she’s like, I’m pretty sure it’s the car. And he’s like, no, that can’t be, and she’s like, no, I’m pretty sure. He’s like, okay.

Yup. So they decide, I guess the deciding factor comes. Um, Dennis says, well, look, we hang out every it’s new year’s we hang out the two of us that his folks, every new years I’ll talk to him about it. He picks them up and then this scene. I really like, and in fact, I hope that you play some of the dialogue here.

Cause I think it’s really interesting, but again, it, it’s not like, it feels like a different movie. Well does it does

Todd: well, here’s the problem. This is why it feels like a different movie. They’re in the killer car. Here we’ve established that this car is a killer and Dennis apparently is willing to get on board with this concept and is worried about Arnie.

So what does he do? He hops in the same car and they go on this road trip and now the car is just a car. I mean, artists, it’s being weird and already being douchey and stuff.

Craig: But, well, it’s beyond douchey. Like at this point, this was when I felt like we were, and even visually you’re starting to see it.

Like he’s getting dark around the eyes and

Todd: sweaty and angry.

Craig: Yeah. And the things that he’s saying. Are really, really dark they’re drinking in the car, which would be a big, no, no in today’s films, but this was the seventies, you know, I think people did that according to my dad. Anyway, they did. You know, so he’s chugging beers and throwing them out the window.

He’s going like 90 plus miles per hour toast death to the shitters of the world in 1979 already. I can’t drink to that. What can you drink?

Todd: What about to us?

Craig: You know, the friendship, a friendship, right? That that’s good. That’s that’s what I. I liked the most about the scene was getting to see, you know, just how far Arnie has been pushed, but also to see how Dennis reacts next to it.

Like he gets really upset. He’s scared clearly, but it also he’s all, but in tears talking to his friend. So I think that it’s, it’s beyond being scared in the moment. And more about like my God, what has happened to you? You know, these guys have been friends presumably since they were little. Um, and, and I really liked that scene.

It had an impact on,

Todd: yeah, it was a good scene. Again, I was still getting back into the groove of, okay. Now Dennis is back in the picture. I still was coming off of the whole bit of Christine running around killing things, and I just felt like it was strange that Christine was taking a break now. I don’t know, what are you going to do?

But I mean, if I were Dennis and I thought that Christine was this killer car, that was, I would have invited him out for pizza somewhere. You know, I, I wouldn’t have gone down the road with them drunk inside this car. And I was kind of hoping something, I was kind of thinking something might happen. You know, I thought maybe the car would kind of turn on, turn on Dennis A.

Little bit or, or, you know, something. Weird, you know, kind of between Christine and Arnie, especially cause Arnie goes on this big thing about, let me tell you about love.

Craig: Let me tell you something about love. Dennis has voracious, appetite, leads, everything, friendship, family. It kills me how much it eats, but I’ll tell you something else.

You feed it right. And it can be a beautiful thing. And that’s what we have in when someone believes in you, man. Anything, any fucking thing in the entire universe. And when you believe right back in that someone, the watch out world, cause nobody can stop you that nobody ever I felt like.

Todd: He’s describing this connection that he has with this car that he’s driving and he’s holding and all that stuff, but nothing else is really coming across visually, you know?

Craig: Yeah. Visually that. Yeah. Yeah. And I get what you’re saying, but kind of the way that I interpreted it is that as long as Arnie’s happy, Christina’s happy, you know, she, she, wasn’t just going out murdering people at random. It was vengeance. Right. And so she doesn’t really have any reason to do anything.

Now, now that’s a good point.

Todd: That’s a good point.

Craig: You know, I think had things transpired differently and Dennis had continued to try to get Arnie away from the car. Then I think that would have been a problem. And, you know, because that’s what they decide. Yeah. We at, you know, after all of this Lee and Dennis.

Come up with this plan, Dennis carves into the hood of the car, the name of the garage. And it’s like the name of the garage tonight or something like that. Um, and Lee’s like, are you sure he’ll come? And he, she he’s like, yeah, he’ll come. Or Christine will come. Their plan is to ambush the car in this garage, Dennis.

Like Hotwire’s a bulldozer and they’re going to ambush the car. Well, Chris, one step ahead of them. And in this, at this time, Arnie is behind the wheel. So I think that at this point we’re supposed to kind of get that the unholy union is complete. You know, it’s not just Christine doing things on her own.

Whether it’s her influence or whether it’s just the culmination of their relationship, he’s aware of what he’s doing. And in this, in this moment, he’s prepared to kill his best friend and the girl that he had professed love for throughout the rest of the movie. Um, so, and I think that’s kind of the turning point, like the point of no return for RNA, which is sad because I wanted Arnie.

To be. Okay. Yeah. And we can talk about, you know, that, that scene,

Todd: it comes crashing in. I was a little unclear of what exactly their plan was. He was in the bulldozer, but she’s on the ground. Uh, and maybe they just didn’t get quite set up before RNA and Christine came in,

Craig: Christina and Arnie were laying in wait.

Todd: Oh, they were in there. All right. Yeah.

Craig: The car was like covered up with some junk or

Todd: so that’s right. And they came out from under the junk. Yeah. And the, I had the impression they burst through the wall, but you’re right. It was just coming out from under some junk against the wall. So they come out and they start attacking them.

And immediately he’s going after her, the girl. She’s able, there there’s a lot of driving around in this small space, but she’s able to kind of maneuver herself against a wall and the dentist is able to maneuver the bulldozer to protect.

Craig: But just before that, see, ha man, it’s, it’s rough because, um, Arnie in the car goes after Lee.

She’s like in the office or whatever, and the car crashes into the office, but Arnie is injected through the windshield and. At this point, dabs yes. Point at this point, yes. A burger dinner

Todd: that was about halfway through. Yeah, you’re right. She ends up in the office at some point. Yeah. And he crashes through the car crashes into the office and Arnie gets ejected through the window and he’s laying there.

And you see, as the picture kind of hands around that he has a huge piece of window windshield glass. Jutting up through his back and out his front,

Craig: in his dying moments, he reaches out and caresses the grill of the car and then he dies. And that was such a bummer because I thought they’ll destroy this car and the, the spell will be broken and he’ll be okay.

And he’ll be sorry. And it’ll, I really kind of wish it had gone that way. But, but it doesn’t, he dies and then the car continues to pursue them. And like you said, I don’t know. There’s a whole bunch of business where Dennis like protects her with the bulldozer. I don’t remember. I think it’s right after it crashes into the office.

There’s a period of time where the front end is really messed up.

Todd: It looks like.

Craig: Yeah, it looks like teeth. And I thought that looked so cool.

Todd: Oh yeah. Without giving the car a hugely like, well, it’s got these supernatural qualities, but without being too overdone with it, just the way that it was smashed up, the way that the front end ends up looking at times, it looks angry.

But then, you know, like you said, it’s got these teeth, it kind of runs around, but then it’s sort of regenerates itself and it goes after her. And she is pretty immobile. Dennis is able to get behind the car as it’s going after her and smashed the bulldozer down on top of it. So it kind of stabs the car with the bulldozer as it’s inching towards her.

And the thing about this bit, I thought was really good. Like again, the relentlessness of this car. So the scar, like we know it can regenerate this huge bulldozers and it, it starts to go on top of the car. And it’s not an easy go. I mean, it’s going over the top of the car slips back and kind of falls off and then goes over it again.

The whole time Christine is moving forward slowly and slowly and slowly, like, you know, like, like a dying person crawling towards someone, you know, reaching out it’s so intense and the sound and the noise and the crunching and the grinding of the metal in this heavy thing on top of it. And finally it just utterly gets completely through it.

Smashes the whole car through and through kind of squeezes the front out its mouth. And Christine kinda is done. I guess it’s just a little too smashed for this. And

Craig: then that’s. I loved it. I loved it when the bulldozer was, um, rolling over it and it was smashing and smashing it, but the car just kept regenerating the car radio, the car radio, who was playing rock and roll will never die.

Okay. You can’t kill me. It’s so funny. They do. They finally get it crushed and like the headlights go out and the radio stops playing. So it’s like it’s dead. And the next scene we see is in a junkyard where they’ve had the car compacted. It’s a silly scene because, uh, the two survivors are standing there with the detective.

Like, did they tell the detective the truth? And he believed them. So

Todd: as they’re staring at it, They hear radio, come on with some music and they’re like, huh. And it turns out to be a guy working in the junkyard. You buy with the boombox, but that’s a little fake out. It was funny. But then the camera, you know, slowly kind of dollies in, on, on the little square that is Christine now, and a little bit of its part sticking out their quivers for a second.

And then, and then we get credits. So yeah, I was, I found the movie to get a little tedious. I think, I think that third turn of events, you know, I was pretty ready for the movie to be done. Cause I got what was going on. Okay. Arnie’s freaking out guys. Just like take care of whatever you need to take care of.

And listen, let’s finish the film. I was a little disappointed that we I’m not a Gore hound. I was a little disappointed. It wasn’t with so many great special effects and cool things in this movie that it wasn’t a little more R rated. Uh, but that’s fine. And I thought the music was great. I thought the sound design was great.

Story was just, okay. Uh, it’s probably not one of them going to go back and see again. I think just for all the reasons we’ve outlined here, that it just does kind of loses its focus. And for me, you know, it became a little tedious to watch and it was really hard. Like you said, to get behind. Kind of a premise, like here’s the central character who’s being beaten down, so we’re rooting for them and they finally get the revenge.

That’s not really how this turns out. Right. So it’s like, Oh, here’s this central character he’s beaten down. But then he becomes evil and then he’s not sympathetic anymore. And then they come in and they kind of get the car, but then they also get him. So nobody’s a winner. Right. And so, yeah, it’s just. I don’t know.

Maybe that’s why it didn’t do so. Well, I don’t know.

Craig: I don’t know. I thought it was okay. John Carpenter is a really good filmmaker, but I would say that. Of his movies. This would fall really low on the list for me. Yeah. It’s not poorly made it’s well shot. The acting is fine. It’s not spectacular, but it’s fine.

Um, like you said, great effects and stuff. I just wonder how it all came together because the special edition DVD has. 20 deleted extended or alternate scenes and that’s a lot. And so it just makes me wonder if somewhere in the editing or something, it just didn’t quite come together the way that maybe it could have, I don’t know.

Maybe they did the best. With the material that they could. Cause it is an odd premise, but in the end, I think it’s okay. I don’t think it’s a bad movie. I don’t love it. I don’t hate it. Didn’t feel like it was a waste of my time to watch, you know, just because it is a Stephen King. Adaptation and because it’s John Carpenter, I was bound to watch it.

And it was, it was fine. I’m not one of my favorites, but it was, it was all right. Um, and I wouldn’t steer anybody. Huh? Good. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t steer anybody away from it. I just don’t necessarily know that I would give it a strong recommendation, but you know, that’s it. And, and again, the, the lovely Kelly Preston, her brief appearance in this, it’s really not much.

We’re kind of grasping at straws here, but she is, she is somebody. Who I always liked. And she seemed like a cool lady. She seemed like a fun lady, you know, before she got married, she was kind of a wild girl. And she, uh, was with Charlie sheen for several years. And it’s kind of an urban legend in Hollywood somehow while she was living with Charlie sheen and they were together alone in the house, she got shot.

I don’t know. I don’t know

Todd: what the full story is. They’re probably by Charlie seat,

Craig: probably. Um, so she, you know, she had her share of wild days, but then she settled down and became a mother. And, um, I am very, very skeptical of Scientology, but she and John Travolta were dedicated to their faith. And if that’s their thing good for them, she seemed.

To be happy. She seems to be, you know, in the later stages of her life to be happy to be a mother and, and to kind of be out of the spotlight a little bit and she’ll be missed. She, she seemed like a cool lady. So we wanted to say something nice about her. This gave us the opportunity. So it was worth it for that.

Todd: Absolutely. Well, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us online, just Google, two guys, and a chainsaw. Go to our website. Two guys that read 40 net.com, where you can find a huge back catalog of episodes. You can leave us a comment there on our Facebook page or send us a tweet and let us know what you thought of this episode and or requests is something new for we’re going to be plowing through quite a, quite a few requests after this one.

So until next time I’m Todd

Craig: And I’m Craig

Todd: with two guys and a chainsaw.

This week’s request comes from Loyal Listener Leeia. Love the sound of that. Session 9 is the first film to be shot on 24 fps (frames per second) video, and the last to be shot on location at the super-creepy Danvers State Mental Hospital in Danvers, Massachusetts.

Brad Anderson’s “psychological horror film” is an odd but welcome departure from our usual slice-and-dice fare, sometimes compared stylistically with Nicolas Roeg’s Don’t Look Now. Thanks, Leeia, for giving us something interesting to talk about!

Session 9 (2001)

Episode 224, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig,

Todd: what we’re returning back to request. As we promised we would. Thank you, Leah, who visited us at our website? 2guys.red40net.com and left a request for us for Session 9 from 2001. Actually she’d requested this a couple of times before. But we just now decided to pay attention to her.

No, I’m just kidding. I had actually seen Session 9 before I watched this several years ago. Back when I was doing Halloween horror movies. When I used to challenge myself to watch a horror movie a day during the month of October, which I quit doing as soon as we started doing this podcast, because I pretty much get my fill.

Oh four movies through this project. Um, but I was really excited to revisit it because I remembered it and really enjoying it actually. But this time around when we watched it, we was very lucky cause it was on Netflix. So if you want to see it after we’re done talking about it and you happen to have Netflix, you can go check it out.

2001 project, not long after Blair witch, just to set it in the time zone for you just about two years later and turns out to be the very first film that was shot on 24 frames per second video. Now for the film nerds out there for the longest time projects weren’t shot on video because when you shot them on video, they looked like they were shot on video, right?

Just the motion. Primarily the video gave it away. And that’s because most videos shot on 60 frames per second, and that’s just the standard. And most film has historically been 24 frames per second. And that 24 frames per second makes a world of difference in your perception of motion, the smoothness of how things happen and the blur and whatnot.

And so. At least at the time, and even now a year, this is the thing. This is like the thing that distinguishes when you’re watching something, whether it has that video look or whether it has that movie look. And so it was a really big deal back in 2001, it was huge. It was new technology for us to have video that would shoot at something like 24 frames per second, to mimic that film feel.

So the director of this movie, Brad Anderson, uh, was able to do that. And so he shot this whole film at the old decrepit falling apart. Sandburs, um, ma hospital, mental institution, whatever in Boston, he used to drive by this all the time long since abandoned, since the eighties, I believe. But one of those places that even though it’s abandoned, it’s still kind of been up there because it belongs to the state and nobody else knows what to do with it.

So teenagers and people would run in and graffiti it up and loop things out of it and spend the night there and whatnot. And it clearly as a massive, massive. Old school style state mental institution is the perfect setting for a horror movie. And that setting itself was the seed for this, the writer, director of this film.

And then, so he built the whole film around the idea of filming at this. Mental institution. So, yeah, it’s another one of those creepy place movies where the place that they are in, Phil’s supposed to fill you with dread. And thankfully it’s not, I mean, thankfully for me, anyway, it’s not filmed as a found footage movie.

It’s filmed as a movie movie with a fairly decent name cast to it. So anyway, I was really happy to revisit this movie and I’m thinking I’m gonna have pretty good things to say about it. How about you, Craig? Did you ever seen this before?

Craig: Yeah, I don’t remember when, I mean, 2001 was quite a while ago. I know that I didn’t see it in the theater or anything.

I probably just caught it streaming somewhere, I would guess. Um, but yeah, I had seen it before. Um, Frankly, I, when you, uh, emailed me and said, let’s do this at your request. I just said, okay. I actually kind of remembered the movie being kind of boring. And so I, you know, I, wasn’t super excited about revisiting it, but I also didn’t remember it being bad.

Um, so, uh, it’s not like I was dreading it and watching it again. You know, there are some interesting things. I think that the, for me. Kind of the most interesting thing about it. And maybe that says something is the location. Um, it, it really is cool too. Get a glimpse into an actual historic locale. And then this, this structure, this building is, is really impressive.

I mean, they, when the cast who you are primarily a crew of workers, um, who remove a spesticity, uh, from. Old buildings when they’re being shown around, uh, the guy who’s showing them around the property manager, whoever it is tells them that he always refers to the building. As the bat. When you see the aerial shots, you can see why it looks like that there’s a central, um, kind of structure or building.

Uh, and then two large wings that go. Off of it. And so from an aerial view, it really does kind of look like a bat. Uh, and it’s just, it’s a really cool location. They actually do did film inside, but they were kind of limited as to where they could film because it was in ruins really. And there were only certain areas that were safe for them to film in.

So even though we’ve got this expansive building, You can kind of tell that they were limited in where they could shoot, you know, there, there’s not a whole lot of different. Places for them to explore, which is a little bit of a appointment, but the atmosphere, um, is still very cool and they didn’t have to do very much to it.

As far as setting design. Um, they basically just went in and, and actually scouted the location, found cool stuff in there, moved some of it around, uh, and they only add, had to add. Just a couple of things to build, um, more atmosphere and, and to service the plot. So I really enjoyed that aspect of it. The story itself, I think, is a little bit lacking.

I mean, frankly, I am not even sure how we’re going to approach it because in my humble opinion, Very little happens.

Todd: Yeah. Well, it’s true. I mean, very little does happen. It’s about this as best as a Bateman crew that goes to this building and sorta kind of starts to abate some of his best and then just weird.

Things, I can’t even really say weird things are happening to them so much that they’re all kind of going off in their own little days. Right? Like each one of them has something just like all of us, something that’s sort of haunting them. Like one of them possibly has a drug problem. One of them has a hard time maybe holding down a job.

One of them. Wants to get out of this blue collar job of as best as abatement and become a high power defense attorney. So he’s studying for that, but you know, it’s unclear as to how, how far he’s going to go. Uh, and then the leader of this group, the guy who presumably owns the company, whose name is Gordon.

Really really wants this job because basically if he doesn’t get this job for the, for, for his crew, he’s going to have to close the company is going to go bankrupt and he’s not going to be able to provide for his family anymore. So he’s got this held over him. So every single character in this movie in one way, shape or form has a little, well, something that’s troubling them and bothering them.

And isn’t that like all of us, you know, I mean, we’ve all got. Something, right. That that’s bothering us at any given time. So it’s not all that unusual, but the movie really takes its time and introducing us to these people and introducing us to all these problems and things. And then. Like you say they come in, but it’s, I mean, it’s so such a slow burn, right?

I mean, it’s so slow that there’s pretty much no story to it. Right. It’s just these guys, these guys talking and chatting and typical job type stuff like, uh, you know, Gordon brings in his nephew to help out. Well, the, the big thing is, is that he gets the job. By over promising. There’s a discussion between Gordon and Phil, Phil.

Who’s played by David Caruso, you know, the guy with the sunglasses on CSI. And that’s interesting. It’s kind of fun to have him in there. And one of the very first dialogues they have as they’re just kind of talking about the job as they’re going to go out and bid it and to get that grand tour, like you said, uh, by another very, very well recognizable, uh, character actor, Paul we’ll foil.

Um, who also has been on CSI for like ever, I mean, he was on CSI for like 14 years, 317 episodes. I mean, he’s the guy. I mean, you recognize this guy instantly pretty much every movie that ever existed has him in there. Somewhere self contained town,

Craig: church, movie theater, bowling alley. Oh, there’s a lovely cemetery up behind the machine shop.

No headstones just numbers. You really ought to check it off. Why don’t you step here? I don’t know. I didn’t recognize him.

Todd: You didn’t recognize him. The guy who took him through the building. I mean, he was Beverly Hills cop two, three men and a baby wall street, uh, air force, one ton of TV, law, and order. He was on mrs.

Doubtfire. I mean, this guy’s been in so much stuff. He’s got like 114 credits to his name, um, LA confidential, but he gives them the grand tour, like you said, and he gives us this, uh, overview of the whole place and a little bit of the history. And so the movie is like you said, like the setting is intriguing and I feel like the setting is intriguing enough that it.

Makes up for the lack of story in that we kind of want to know a little, a bit more about the story of this act. Sure. We’ll place. Uh, and we get little bits pieces of it throughout the movie. Before we start to get into the fictionalized story. Of one particular patient who was there, who seems to have kind of an influence perhaps continuously throughout over the place.

And then perhaps it’s debatable, there’s some supernatural element to it that is, you know, kind of infects the guys like us Bestos would affect you. Uh, as they’re working through the building. I mean, that’s kind of it in a nutshell, but it’s, it’s extremely slow and it’s the kind of movie I feel like you have to be in the mood for this kind of film to be able to sit down and watch it, or else you’re going to be impatient.

Right. You’re going to be bored.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s not a long movie. It’s only an hour and a half long. And I wouldn’t necessarily say that it feels right. Super long. It doesn’t, but it’s just, like you said, it’s a lot of them talking. Um, and I wish that they had done more, whether it was, I don’t even really care.

I mean, it would be interesting if it had been actually, you know, historic. Information about stories that happened in this building, because I’m sure stories abound. Yeah. This guy, again, I don’t know who it is. Property manager, whoever it is, um, says that he would much rather just tear it down that the land that it’s on is.

Worth far more than the actual structure itself, but it’s been placed on the state or national historic registry, so it’s protected, so they can’t tear it down. Okay. And he gives a little bit of the, you know, he says, um, It was basically, self-sustaining like they had stores and entertainment, you know, all kinds of different stuff going on in there.

And I think that they’re now planning on it, turning it into some sort of like municipal building parts that were the most interesting to me would be when they were talking about things, whether or not they were true. And some of these things, they said. Said we’re inspired in part by stories that not necessarily happened in this particular building, but in mental institutions around that time, uh, in the late 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds.

And I wish there had been a little bit more focus on that. That was the stuff that I found. Interesting. I CA yeah, I kind of found their day to day interactions a little bit mundane and yeah. And as a much as. You know. Okay. So it’s really supposed to be a three week job, but initially Gordon tells the guy, well, we can do it in two weeks, which Phil is concerned about.

Not really sure they can do that. But then when Gordon gets the property manager outside, he said, as you know what I need this job. I’ll meet the other guys, I’ll match the other guys bid and I’ll get it done in one week. So they’re really under a crunch to try to get a three week job done in one week and there’s incentive for them if they can do it, there’s a $10,000 bonus.

So they are incentive to do this. Um, but yeah. You never really see them doing much.

Todd: I know

Craig: it seems like they’re always on break and any time they are working, they’re doing the same thing in the same place. Like you never see any progress made. And so I can’t imagine how they would have really gotten this done in a week when we see them over the course of four days or five days or however many days.

And it looks the same at the end, as it did at the beginning. Pretty much, except for that, they’ve hung up some like plastic sheeting. Yeah.

Todd: For, for as big a deal as was made early on in the movie about how. Insane. It would be to try to complete this for in one week and they’ve got to hire on extra people and blah, blah, blah.

They don’t seem to be rushed. I think that’s definitely a flaw of the film, but I suppose if they were so rushed doing it, they wouldn’t have time to stop and talk and be freaked out by things and investigate. I almost, I mean, I think you could also interpret this as the building has sort of cast a spell over them.

Right. And so for them, once they enter here and they start to work, like they kind of lose all sense of time and they kind of lose the impetus to do what they’re doing and they get super distracted by their environment and what’s in it and almost closed. Their minds are almost closed off to the job.

That’s actually it.

Craig: Yeah. Well, the other thing that. Kind of bothered me was that there is a lot of personal drama going on, but it all just kind of seems disjointed. Like everybody’s kind of going through their own thing. Um, and they don’t, they’ll, they’ll touch on it, on it in conversation every once in a while, but really everybody’s just kind of dealing with their own drama, like.

Yeah, Gordon in the very beginning, the first thing we see is him and Phil still waiting to talk, to get inside the gate and to talk to this property man manager. And you can tell right away that Gordon is stressed out and nervous, feel calm. It’s on it. And he’s a new dad and the baby, um, isn’t like terminally ill or anything, but has an ear infection or something.

Which as a parent, I’m sure you know, that that can be a nightmare because the baby doesn’t sleep and crying all the time. Um, so that’s realistic that he would be tired and kind of on edge. And then we get, you know, the, the tour and during the tour Gordon fees like this. A wheelchair, which is kind of the primary image.

And it’s the image on the box art, even though it doesn’t appear to really be connected to the story at all. Other than that looks creepy.

Todd: Well, there’s a lot of that, but yeah. Featured so heavily in the movie that I was constantly waiting for some tie in just an image or something that would tie it into something.

And there’s nothing, it almost like makes you think that there was something missing, like on the cutting room floor, whatever that fleshed this out. It’s an iconic image. And it ends up being an iconic image in the movie. But to what extent, like what it’s supposed to symbolize. I don’t know what it is.

Just quit. Yes.

Craig: Yeah. Well, when he sees it, he hears a spooky voice, say, hello Gordon. And throughout the course of the movie, he hears this spooky voice. It’s kind of explained in the end, but we know that there’s either something going on in the building or there’s something going on in his mind or somehow the building is.

Affecting something in his mind. I don’t know, but right away, you know, something’s going on. Jerry makes the deal. He goes home and you see him sitting in his truck or his van outside of his house, just observing his wife and baby. And it’s a very. Totally domestic scene, you know, cute little house, the wife and the baby in the front yard and the little dog in the yard and all very cute.

And his wife looks at him and kind of gives them a little bit of a half smile and then turns and goes inside and we see him get out and he’s got like groceries with him. I suppose. It’s significant to say that you see a jar of peanut butter and some Oreos sticking up out of there. And he’s also got some roses and he walks in.

We don’t see what happens inside, but we hear almost in voice over a female voice, say roses, they’re lovely. What’s the name? Cajun Gordon. And then a scream. And it goes dark. Then it just cuts to Monday. And that’s when that’s the start of the day. Work. Yeah. And when you start to meet some of the other characters, there’s Hank and his drama is that he is now dating Phil’s ex um, and Hank and Phil clearly have this, like, it’s one of those things where they’re friends, I guess, but you don’t really understand why cause they hate each other.

Todd: Yeah, well, and Phil even tries to replace Hank, like early on. He tells Gordon he’s like, look, you know, Hank really isn’t up to the job. I’ve got some other guy, Roger, whatever who can come in and I’ve already talked to him and he can replace him. And Gordon really doesn’t want to have much to do with that.

Craig: Yeah. He’s like, no, Hank is fine. And, and he’s right. I mean, Hank is an asshole, but the reason that Phil wants to get rid of him is because. He’s mad at him because he’s dating his ex-girlfriend and Hank even says later on in the movie, somebody says something about like, when you and Amy have kids or whatever, he’s like, I’m not interested in having a kids with her.

I’m just giving it to her to, you know, stick it to Phil. Um, so there there’s that drama. And then we meet the two other guys, Mike or Mikey, who is the guy that you mentioned? I thought of him as the handsome one, but he’s also the one that also the one that his dad is like the state district attorney or something like that.

And he had been interested in law. But I guess he had gone to like a year of law school and dropped out or something, but we see that he’s actually very bright and he knows a lot about the law and knows a lot about history. And he mentions later on that, he’s thinking about going back and trying again.

Uh, and then Jeff, who is Gordon’s nephew? He’s young, I would guess in his early twenties, he’s played by Brendan Sexton. The third who, if you. Watched teen movies in the nineties, you will totally recognize he was in empire records, welcome to the dollhouse and just a lot out of other stuff. And they fill out the crew, that’s it.

You know, they, they kind of go to work one of the first. Things that I found interesting. And again, like I said, I love these stories, these old stories that they tell, um, they’re, they’re looking through the records just because they’re cleaning up and the records are all there and they find them interesting.

So they’re looking through some of them and talking about reasons why people were committed. Uh, and then they also talk about what happened when the place was shut down and how everybody. Who had been in residence, there was just kind of dumped out, you know, on the street. Some of them were sent to other facilities, but a lot of them were just released.

And in fact, many of them tried to come back and they had a difficult time keeping people. But, uh, Mike tells this story that Jeff, why the place got closed down. They said something about budget cuts or something. Mike says, well, there was that, but then there were also the scandals, of course, they’re curious.

And so he tells this story. So like for example, there was this girl named Patricia Willard. And, uh, I don’t remember what year. It was 1984, I think. And they were doing this new practice called repressed memory theory therapy, um, where they would try to stimulate repressed memories for therapeutic purposes.

And with this girl. She through her therapy had memories of being raped by her father when she was 10 years old, but it wasn’t a one time thing. It was a regular thing. And it wasn’t just that, but what she remembered was that her. Parents would take her out into the woods, um, where her grandparents and other people would be.

And it was a satanic ritual, um, and like a blood orgy where they would sacrifice babies. Then. I mean, it’s the story. He goes into pretty graphic detail, those kinds of stories. I, that was fun to listen to, but it doesn’t really. It doesn’t have any, no, it doesn’t, it doesn’t really have anything to do with the story.

It’s just, Ooh. Here’s, it’s like a campfire story apropos of nothing, you know?

Todd: I mean, it’s color, it’s color for the movie. It’s color for the idea that you’ve got this mental institution. There’s a lot of history. There, there are a lot of stories behind it. Here’s one of those stories. I mean, and maybe for people our age, we’re old enough to remember this at least.

I remember it. I remember it in the news. There was a weird, shocking period of time in the mid eighties to early eighties, w that we now refer to as a satanic panic, where basically people were being put into hypnosis and asked to dig up these repressed memories. And at the time it wasn’t understood that just the very act of doing this.

Can implant memories that aren’t true. So you can actually suggest things to people and they’ll go off on it. And there were these, there was a series of people. I mean, it would be like kids at a daycare and kids about their parents and whatnot. And it was always about. Perhaps influenced by the movies at the time, satanic rituals, like you pull up these repressed memories that they were this very exact thing happened to them.

And a lot of very innocent people got dragged through the court system. Some were put away for it in this ridiculous accusations that they were having. Satanic rituals, where they were killing kids and molesting kids and drinking blood and drinking urine and eating each other’s feces and just all kinds of bizarre stuff that actually turned out to them, not be true, but for a while, the news and the general public were buying into it, hook, line and sinker, and it was a real popular thing.

And this is really endemic of commensal health through history, you know? Yeah. So, I mean, it, clearly it ties into the movie. There’s a lot of weird ass. Stuff that in the, because the human mind is so difficult to understand. And our earlier cruder attempts to understand it. We’re just off the wall. A lot of weird stuff like this went on.

And unfortunately, a lot of people with just serious biological, mental health issues would be thrown into a giant institution like this and studied and. And having a knack to it upon themselves, all these weird therapies that were really just shots in the dark and experiments. I mean like human Guinea, pigs, you know, so the whole thing is, is yeah, is weird.

Craig: And you say, you know, serious mental health struggles sometimes, and sometimes not, you know, sometimes homosexuality or. Nervous conditions, you know, I mean, these are probably people who just struggled with anxiety or depression, things that are relatively easily, we manage today with medication and yeah.

B, but if they were in any way, a nuisance, they would just be put away or an embarrassment. It would just be put away. And like you said, yeah. All these strange treatments. Uh, electroshock therapy, which is still used in some instances today, uh, Labatt bottomy was really popular. And, uh, they talk about that here.

Jeff’s a simple kind of guy. He seems, he seems good natured.

Todd: Well, he just seems young.

Craig: Yeah. He’s just kind of a dumb kid, you know, that’s not a bad guy. Just kind of a. A kid. Um, but he, he kind of is ribbing Mike about something. He calls Michael a bottomy case or something, and he’s, he’s given him a hard time.

So Mike grabs him and they’re eating lunch, which they eat lunch through about half the movie. Um, He grabs him, they’re eating lunch and he grabs a, a chopstick and the other guys were like, Hey, Hey, now he’s like, no, no, I’m just horsing around. I’m not going to hurt him. And he holds the chopstick up to the corner of his eye and explains.

Sorry. Right. Nice pick method, cert, a thin metal pipette

Todd: into the orbital frontal cortex.

Craig: And under the soft tissue of the frontal lobe, a few simple, smooth up and down jerks to civil, the lateral hypothalamus resulting in rapid reduction of stress for our little patient here. Total time elapsed, two minutes only side effect, black guy recommended treatment sunglasses.

Now, I don’t know if the way that he explains it is entirely accurate. And I also know that there well, but there are different types of lava, Labatt, dummies as well, correct? Like,

Todd: well, I really dying to talk about Labatt tummies, cause this is so fascinating. This is so fascinating.

Craig: Well, then you probably know more about it than I do.

Todd: Well, uh, this is something that, that was going on up to the eighties. I mean, as insane as this is about to sound to you, keep in mind that when we were. In the middle of elementary school, this stuff was still going on. This was an ex somewhat accepted medical practice in the United States. I mean started in 1935, there was a Portuguese neurologist and he did the very first of he called, uh, Lucado dummy.

He didn’t call the bottom. Yes  but he literally drilled into a, basically it was literally drilling into a person’s. Skull to access the brain and poke around and sever some nerves in there to attempt to cure whatever this per patient’s mental illnesses. And it’s, I mean, you know, like we know about the brain, we know how delicate and complex it is.

It’s really hard to imagine people being so desperate to figure out a way to cure people’s mental illnesses, that they would more or less jab things around. Inside a person’s brain to see what happened, but this guy had some decent results even won a Nobel prize in medicine in 1949. So, I mean, clearly he was getting some good results from what he was doing.

Yeah. But then other, yeah. Well, it depends on,

Craig: yeah, depending on your perspective, we’ll end, depending on where the person being lobotomized. You might feel differently

Todd: depending on the patient too, right? I mean, it was like kind of a crapshoot. I mean, sometimes it really did work a lot of times it didn’t, there was a lot of in between, but then people improved upon this procedure.

Uh, and, and in 1936 there was a psychiatrist named Walter Freeman, uh, who performed the first pre what they call a pre-fund frontal lobotomy, which is where instead of drilling a hole into their brain, They went in through the front. And this is when they called it a Labatt tummy. And the idea was that he, he believed that like, you know, a person could just get overloaded with emotions that would cause mental illness.

And so if you cut certain nerves in their brain, then it would slow that down and correct that. And he found a very efficient way of doing this procedure, which involved exactly what Mike says in the movie, which is you take. An ice pick and you go through your eye, like not into your eye, but the corner of your eye, you can go, you can go around the eye and then go straight into the brain from there.

And you, so you drive this ice pick in there after you’ve kind of, um, I think they use electroshock therapy to kind of knock the patient out and make them unconscious. And then they would drive this ice pick in, through their eye socket, into their brain and move it around a little bit. And that seemed to sever some kind of nerves that at least in some patients would have a dramatic effect of improving, you know, getting rid of this, this overload of emotion or their depression or whatever they had.

The problem is. It didn’t have that effect for everybody. Like for some people it would make them vegetables. For some people, it would have these weird effects. And so it’s still, it’s just a very barbaric, like shot in the dark procedure, but it was so popular and so easy to do that. I mean, this guy went around the country.

It was almost like a showman and would do this, like in front of audiences. He’d do like an ice pit, like an ice pick in each eye. Like, um, I mean, it just so bizarre nowadays to imagine this being a thing, but that’s why it’s so much a part of our culture now is because, you know, you joke about it, right?

If you had a lobotomy or whatever, but like, because in the past it was an acceptable medical procedure. And I think the Kennedy family, um, John F. Kennedy, what was his sister? Right. Had had a low bottom and they totally regretted it. I think it made her, it completely screwed her up. But in any way, there were tens of thousands of these procedures done in the United States up to the mid day.

And even other countries as early as like the fifties were saying, you know what. This is messed up. We can’t do it like Russia and Japan in, I think 1956, 1957 said, nah, no, we’re, we’re going to outlaw this while the U S was doing it well into the eighties. And so, I mean, that’s just another. I think telling that story and telling the other story that you said about the satanic panic kind of puts us in this frame of mind of understanding the kinds of things that would happen in these insane asylums to the people that were in there so that we can get kind of a creeped out.

You know, I mean, I think that’s the only role that these stories play, because like you said, There’s a little bit of a tie in later with the Labatt tummy angle, but in general, none of this pays out in the plot or the backs

Craig: bottoming thing does be, cause he says, you know, really the only negative side effect of a lobotomy bottomy is a black guy.

And the recommended treatment is to wear sunglasses and that. Comes back up later, but once those things are established, then it’s kind of just about the unraveling of this story. There’s not a whole lot to during the day, while they’re working, uh, Hank fines, a little pile of coins, old coins. Like, I don’t know if it was like a trail or if he just noticed there was like, it was, and there was like a coin, like sticking out.

Between two bricks and a wall and he pulled it out and another one kind of fell out after it. And so he pulled the brick out. And it was like a slot machine, like coins and jewelry and all kinds of things started falling through. Now, this has never really explained. He doesn’t know. No, I don’t think what he is on earth.

We see the camera pans right around to the other side of the wall and we see that it’s, uh, the incinerator and the crematorium. Now why all this stuff would be in there. I have no idea. I don’t know if somebody hit it in there or if it’s a suggestion of supernatural or what? I don’t know.

Todd: I think there’s a slight implication because he finds.

Like eyes like false eyes in there and he finds jewelry and there’s hair that he’s kind of pulling out, you know, from the stuff. I think there’s kind of an implication that this would be the leftover stuff of a person that didn’t burn up in the incinerator. That’s just collected back there. Although it doesn’t make a lot of sense that this stuff would be piled behind a brick and that all these coins would be part of it.

Right. It’s it’s, it’s a little.

Craig: I can see the teeth and stuff maybe, but it wouldn’t, it’s not like they would put people in the incinerator with a suitcase full of money, you know, I’m pretty sure that they put them in there, you know, naked or whatever. But, well, I don’t know. Maybe there is an explanation that’s significant, but if there was, I didn’t catch it.

I didn’t know why that stuff was.

Todd: I agree with you. I don’t think there’s a logical sense to it, but if the movie’s a little dreaming or whatever, I mean, th the sense of what he’s doing, I think is that he’s kind of looting the dead, right? I mean, he’s just, uh, he’s opening up this thing and he’s kind of desecrating, hollowed ground or whatever.

I, that was the idea I got from it anyway, but you’re right. Like, logically it doesn’t make sense. Right. But thematic Oakley, it seems to. Be one of the things anyway, that sets off the supernatural element of the movie. Am I right? Or did that happen a little bit before that? I’m not sure.

Craig: Well, I don’t know.

I mean, I don’t think it sets it off because, um, Gordon was hearing voices from the moment he walked in, um, and has continued to. And so he finds that and then. While Mike and Jeff are working. There’s a problem with the electricity. And Mike has to go down to the basement where it seems through strange events with lights going off and shining in certain directions.

He’s kind of led to this box that contains all these tapes. And these ended up being the sessions. From the title, there are nine of them and they are these recorded sessions, uh, psychiatry or psychotherapy, the sessions of this patient, Mary Hobbs, uh, who had, I don’t remember what they call it anymore. Do they call it dissociative disorders out?

They call it, they used to call it multiple personalities. They don’t call it that anymore, but, uh, she’s got these, uh, different personalities and you hear a doctor is. Interviewing her and Mary, the patient herself is very distraught, but sometimes her alternate personalities come forward. There’s a little girl that they call the princess who they say lives in the tongue because she talks all the time.

And there’s a little like British boy. Um, Billy, he lives in the eyes because he sees everything and there’s a third alternate. But princess claims not to know him. Mary claims, not to know any of them. And Billy will not. Discuss this third, alternate, whose name is Simon. And throughout the course of the movie, Mike goes down there with urgency.

Like any time something happens, it’s like, he feels an urgent need to go down there to listen to these sessions, but he never tells anybody else about them. Nobody else in the movie knows about them. Ever. And, uh, he listens to them and, uh, what, what the doctor is trying to get at, and this is all over the course of the whole movie.

It’s not in one session, it’s multiple sessions, but what the doctor is trying to get at is apparently there had been a traumatic event, um, during a Christmas in, uh, Mary’s childhood

doctor, who am I speaking with? Mary got a China doll from her mommy. And we can’t find it now. No princess, I haven’t seen it. Maybe Billy knows where you’re trying to dial it. Believe princess,

Todd: tell me what happened

Craig: on Christmas 22 years ago in Lowell,

Todd: we

Craig: got. Man. I got a pretty China doll and Peter, but big all my life.

And then after their parents went to sleep, they played hide and seek. And that’s it. Apparently something else happened, but nobody is willing to say what really happened. Um, the doctor says, how did you get those scars on your chest? And either Mary or princess, as I’ve told you before I, when I was a kid, I had a bike accident.

Like I cut myself up, you kind of put two and two together, or at least I did. But anyway, that’s going on. And then, uh, we also Gordon tells Phil that that day that he had gone home, that we had seen in the beginning of the movie. Um, he had really wanted to celebrate getting the job. He went in the house and his wife had a big, big pot of pasta on the stove.

And he said, I don’t really know what happened. Um, but somehow next thing I knew I had a huge pot worth of boiling water, um, all running down my leg and he says, and. He said the baby was crying and the dog was barking. And I don’t know why I did it, but I hit her. He says that she’s not speaking to him.

We’ve seen him try to call her several times. Um, but it appears from his side, the conversation that she hangs up on him, she won’t talk, talk to him. Phil asks him where he’s staying and he says a motel. So that’s going on? And then. What’s his name? Hank comes back at night when everybody else is gone so that he can lose all of this stuff that he’s found.

And when he’s there, he hears something that spooks him. And so he kind of tries to run away and then he kind of gets cornered and he sees some birds and he thought it was birds. But then. Somebody shows up somebody that he knows, because he’s like, uh, what are you doing here? Then it just cuts to black.

And I’m trying to kind of go through this quickly. Cause like, it’s really seems like so little, like to me, I thought, Oh, well, okay. He’s. Dead now. And lo and behold, the next morning he doesn’t show up. And so they say, well, let’s try it. Paul’s girlfriend, does anybody have the number and feels like, yeah, I have the number.

So they get filled up the phone and he calls and, and they hear his side of the conversation. And when he gets off the phone, he says, Amy said that he came home last night. Okay. And said that he had hit it big and he, he was leaving and he was going to Miami and he was gonna go, I go to casino school and that’s it.

Todd: Casino school. Yeah.

Craig: Yeah. I know what that means.

Todd: I guess it means he’s just going to go play the slot. Cause he’s got a gambling thing, right? I mean, he’s all asking them for scratchers tickets. He opens up the glove compartment at one point, a bunch of scratches tickets fall off. So he’s looking for the easy out.

It’s interesting. Actually, I think how that ties into him though, right? Like him getting all those coins and stuff. It’s like a slot machine, like you said, it’s almost like he was led to it. By the facility and it was uniquely attractive to him and that’s what the building or whatever the, the asylum used to draw him in.

Craig: So

Todd: it’s, it’s starting to feel a little supernatural at this point, but he’s gone, like you said, he’s completely,

Craig: and it causes tension within the group because Gordon knows that Phil wanted to get rid of Hank anyway. And Gordon had also seen Phil like paying off a couple of young. Rough looking types.

And so he thinks that maybe in fact, eventually he confronts Phil and, and says, you know, you did this, didn’t you, you hired those guys to get rid of him. And Phil eventually says, no, those were like graffiti artists. And I warned them to stay away. The movie in my opinion is going well out of its way. To make Phil look super, super shady.

Todd: Yeah, I know. You know, the way I interpreted it though, was that, and from the beginning, when he meets these guys and they kind of shake hands and the guys kind of wander off and look both ways that he was doing a drug deal, because earlier, who is it? It’s Mike, I guess who’s chatting with the young kid.

Jeff w what was his name? Right. And he’s telling him about everybody and he says, Oh yeah. And Phil’s got his thing. And maybe at some point, he’ll tell you, he literally says to Jeff, like everybody here has their thing and Phil’s got his thing, but he doesn’t say what Phil’s thing is. And then when I saw those guys kind of leave, I figured Phil’s thing was like drugs, because.

Later in the movie, you know, Phil actually arrives to the work site early and rolls up a joint and is smoking it. Uh, Gordon shows up early as well, and Phil, you know, quickly hides it and he’s like, Oh, you’re here early. Aren’t you? And then there’s this, there’s a little bit of dialogue between, I mean, them earlier in the movie as well, where he’s, it sounds like, at least to me, it sounded like he was referencing.

That perhaps Phil had some problem with being under the influence at work. And so I just sort of assumed that those guys were drug people just selling them something and that Phil was covering for it. And Gordon was just like, whatever

Craig: that could very well be. I, I mean, I saw him smoking the joint before work or whatever, and just didn’t really think much of it, but it would make logical sense that yeah, he was just.

You know, buying drugs or whatever. Yeah. And it would make sense that he would lie about it. So, you know, that’s, that’s all well and good in making Phil seems so suspicious. The movie also makes Gordon seem potentially paranoid beyond a reasonable amount. Right. The, I think that the next and again, we’re hearing these sessions, um, and, and in these sessions, they’re constantly trying, the doctor is constantly trying to get the other alternative to allow him to meet Simon.

And they won’t like that, but it’s insistent that he, he needs to talk to Simon. So that’s going, and really, I think the next thing that happens is, um, Phil approaches. Mike and says, look, Gordon is becoming a liability. He told me he hit his wife, um, and Gordon overhears this. And so there’s all this tension between them.

They’re having that tense. Conversation. Jeff is just looking around or something and finds Hank, standing, looking out a window. Yeah. And Hank just says to him, what are you doing here? And Hank reaches up and touches the window and you see that he leaves blood behind. And so Jeff goes to grab them. The other guys and says Hanks here.

And they’re like, that’s not possible. He’s in Miami or whatever. We heard Amy say that. And Gordon says, no, we didn’t hear Amy say that. We heard you. Supposedly on the phone with her. We heard you say it, but we didn’t actually hear her say it. So there’s all this suspicion. So they all run around to try to, they, they go back to where Hank was, but he’s not there anymore,

Todd: but there’s a, this half dollar there, right?

Craig: Yeah. The coin. And then this is worth it. Things get kind of tricky because it’s purposeful. I think. The timeline gets kind of tricky here because in one moment, Hank is holding the coin and drops it. And then in the next moment you see that Phil is holding a coin, whether or not it’s the same one. Is a little bit unclear, but for whatever reason, they all run off alone looking for Hank, you know, it’s tense.

The, the generator goes out,

Todd: so it gets dark for a minute downstairs. That kind of sucks for him. And so he’s screaming. Yeah. Gordon goes out to fill

Craig: it. And Phil eventually does find Hank like huddled in a corner, just mumbling to himself. Um, and then we see Jeff gets out of the building and he’s kind of freaking out and he makes his way to the van and he calls and tells them where he is.

And we see from. This other person’s point of view that a person approaching him, obviously somebody that he knows and is not afraid of, but again, it’s one of those quick cuts and it seems pretty evident that Jeff has gotten attacked or something. Um, and that is when I guess the movie kind of starts like, like it, the story unravels here at the end, um, and it all.

Aligns with us finally hearing the session nine tape when Simon finally does emerge.

Todd: Yeah. I feel like sound, uh, plays a lot into this movie. The soundtrack of the film, uh, which was done by some band is, is eerie and atmospheric. And it’s. Really effective, I think. But then also, like you said, we hear these sessions of Mary Bean.

I played in the background as well. Like the idea I think is that Mike has long left. Like Mike has wandered off. But he’s let that tape go. And so we get to hear the extent of session nine, playing out over this. Very, like you said, disjointed visual of all of these people, doing all their weird things. So Gordon is like in a day is, and he wanders into a room and we’ve earlier seen these rooms of these patients, which by the way, apparently they didn’t.

Dress up, like there were photographs and clippings and things out of magazines and pictures that were apparently, you know, important to the patients that were just all plastered to the wall and it kind of collage. So we’d seen this before, but he wanders into this room and it’s such the collage on the wall is his photos that we had seen him flipping through of his family.

So like, did he perhaps put these photos up on this wall?

Craig: Yeah, but he seems confused by it and like, he doesn’t know what’s going on. And then this, by the way is the next day. So we’ve seen maybe Jeff get attacked. We know that Phil has found Hank, but we don’t know how this has turned out. And now this is the next day and we see.

Bef when Gordon goes in, um, where he’s coming from as he’s coming from his van and when he closes the door or there’s a big bloody hand print on the van. So something has happened in the interim that we, you don’t know. And all we know is that Phil has called him on the walkie talkie and told him to come in.

And when he, he goes in, he finds that stuff. Phil is standing there. Over Hanks body.

Todd: We don’t know at the time, but he says to him on the walkie talkie, I know who’s behind it. All right. Right. Gordon’s in the room, putting his hands all over that collage of his own family on the wall. And then Phil we’re seeing is apparently looking for Gordon, but he has a knife in his hand.

Like he’s either scared or on the defense or whatever, and he’s wandering around. Trying to find Gordon, presumably, but he’s got this knife in his hand. So it’s clear that things are coming to a head, but it’s, you’re still very disoriented as to what’s exactly going on. Right?

Craig: Yeah. And after Phil confronts, they end up face to face over Hanks body and I thought Hank was dead.

It turns out he’s not, um, he’s just kind of catatonic in that moment. Um, but they end up kind of face to face and I don’t remember what the conversation they had. But like Gordon accuses, Phil of being behind all this. And Phil says, look, you just need to wake up. And he keeps repeating it, wake up, wake up louder and louder.

And Gordon is saying I am awake. And then all of a sudden he hears something behind him. And what it is is they had called in another guy to replace Hank and this guy had just shown up. Um, and that guy comes into the room. And when Gordon turns around, Phil has gone as though he has disappeared

Todd: or was never there in the first place.

Right,

Craig: which is what it is. So this other guy who we’ve never met before comes in and just walks up to Gordon, doesn’t seem to be particularly concerned about the guy laying on the ground. So for a second, I wondered if Hank was even really there. Um, but he is because Gordon grabbed, he puts the other guy in a chokehold reach and gets down to the ground.

Grabs the ice pick out of Hanks. I pulls it out. This is the only really up to this part, gruesome part of the movie pull. And it’s the only CGI effects in the movie as well. Pulls it out of his eye and stabs it into the other guy’s eye. Meanwhile, we’re hearing Simon on the session tapes. As it turns out Gordon was the one behind all of this.

He, he was the one who had stabbed Hank and we ha it didn’t happen on camera, but we start to see flashbacks of what had actually happened. And he killed them all. He killed Jeff, he killed Mike and eventually he killed Phil as well. Um, but it’s as though he did it. In an unconscious state, he wasn’t aware of it.

And I think that the suggestion based on the tapes. Because we finally get the story. What happened on that Christmas? This was, and Peter had been playing hide and seek. Um, and Peter had jumped out of the dark and scared Mary and she was so scared that it brought out. The Simon person or thing in her psyche.

And then she had killed her brother. And that’s why she was institutionalized. I apparently, um, but this alternate personality of Simon. Speaks as though he’s an outside entity. And he talks about how, just like the doctor had asked the other alternates where they live. And they had said in the eyes and the tongue, they asked Simon where he lives.

And he said, I live in the weak and the wounded. Um, and so I think the suggestion is. That be, did we even bring up the, we didn’t even talk about that. The fact that it it’s revealed also that, uh, Gordon hadn’t just hit his wife. He had killed her and the baby

Todd: and we get this in a really grave flashback. I mean, it’s all audible.

That’s what’s really. I think quite nice about this movie. If you’re not a fan of Gore, then you can watch this movie. Yeah. There’s like a slight aftermath that you’ll see some bloody bodies toward the end. Like we were talking about when everything’s kind of revealed, but you’re not going to see people getting hacked to pieces, but all audibly.

Yeah. And you know, w we’ve con continually through the movies. Seeing these bits and pieces and heard the audio of these flashbacks of Gordon’s encounter, where he hit his wife, presumably. But what we don’t get until now is the full story, which is he didn’t just hit his wife. Like you said, he killed her and then like, chillingly, like you’re like, Oh God, no, please don’t let it be.

So you’re waiting for it, but you don’t want it to happen. You hear the suggestion that he’s also murdered his child. So the question, I mean, that really reveals the fact that for a couple days prior, right. Gordon killed his family. Like he’s come to the site at least a couple days since then. And that kind of explains his days, right?

Like why he’s been a little off.

Craig: Yes. And when he said that he was staying in a motel, I, that was a lie. I think we never see him going to, or from a motel. Um, and yeah, there is suggestion that he would have been staying in the hospital. Spittle because, uh, when Hank was down there looting, he comes across an empty jar of peanut butter.

And we had seen the peanut butter in, uh, Gordon’s groceries when he had gone home that one time, um, we had also seen the Oreos and Jeff finds the Oreos right before he dies. We see at one point the flowers. Um, that Gordon had had, um, in the back of his van covered, not in blood, it looks like blood. It’s actually the red stuff that they use to cover up the asbestos.

But it, it, you know, it clearly suggests blood, which is some foreshadowing. So the way that I read it is that somehow Gordon was haunted by something, this Simon, whatever this Simon is, he was haunted by it. From the moment that he went into the hospital and that is what led him to that’s why? Because he doesn’t seem, yeah, he was stressed out, but not stressed out enough to just kill his whole family.

Right. When Simon says, um, I killed Peter, the Mary’s brother, it says, why did you do it Simon? And he says, cause Mary, let me, they always do so. Some influence this Simon, whatever it is, whether it’s supernatural or whatever, it, it influenced Gordon and led him to do these things almost. Unconsciously. And, uh, I think that after he, he killed his wife, he was throughout the entire rest of the course of the movie.

He was delusional or crazy. Yeah. We even, we even see him trying to call his wife again and we see that the phone that he’s. Talking on is, is, is shattered. Um, it’s just the shell of the phone. All of those times that we had seen him talking to him, his wife on the phone before he wasn’t talking to her, she was dead.

He’s crazy.

Todd: And that was a heartbreaking moment too, like, right. Like he’s talking, he’s trying to talk to her. He says, I’m really sorry about what I did. It’s like, I’m sorry. I, I mean, he’s apologizing to nothing, right? To a broken phone,

Craig: any he’s crying and he’s begging to come home. And it is sad because for me, the implication is that this is something that.

Happened to him, like, he’s the victim in this? He wasn’t a bad person. He wasn’t a bad guy, something malevolent influenced him and caused this chain of events. And he’s just as much a victim as anybody else. And so it is sad.

Todd: You’re right. That’s how I interpret it too. That there is a actual supernatural presence here that’s causing this, this, this film has sort of been likened to.

The shining. There are a

Craig: lot of parallels.

Todd: A lot of, I think there are actually even some direct, like, Purposeful parallels in there that you can catch some sort of Easter eggs in the movie that cat, that throw out to certain aspects of the show.

Craig: Well, I definitely thought like when, when the generator died, that was very reminiscent of, uh, the, the, the boiler in.

Um, the shining having to keep an eye on the anyway. Well, there are lots of parallels,

Todd: right? You’re right. And, and the actual story of this guy kind of going crazy and killing his family is inspired by an actual true story that the director mentioned that back in like 94, uh, this guy named Richard Rosenthal, just some normal guy who lives in the suburbs, sold insurance or whatever his wife had a miscarriage or something, just him.

He just kind of came on hinged. He goes, and he kills her. And then for the next two or three days, he just goes back to work and it’s just like normal. Nobody had any idea. He just acted like he was normal. And so it was a direct influence. One of the many stories, obviously that he pulled from his inspiration.

Uh, for the story that he did. So I think it’s kind of interesting. You have this actual historic building with, with actual stories that happened in there and all the, like you said, it’s not like he pulled the stories from actual patients here and made it part of the movie, nevertheless, a whole lot, a lot of true crime or true lore about.

Mental patients and crime and whatnot that he’s pulled from and made a part of the mythology of the film. And like you said, it feels like what he’s, he’s tying it all together with the Simon character. And I think it’s cute. Like the way you put it, Simon says, Simon says, do this Simon says do that. I don’t think it’s a.

Coincidence that the entities name assignment. So I think there, there are a lot of layers, this film that I think you can unpack. I think it’s the kind of movie that upon repeat viewing probably gives you a little bit more. Um, but when you watch it and I think purposefully, so you’re a bit confused. It’s it’s a little days, like it’s a little dreamlike, at least at the end.

There’s something concrete. They show the bodies. It’s a kind of a Kaiser. So is a moment where you see that. Quite honestly, he has actually killed all of these people. We see their bodies, we see who they are and we see his madness. And then, like you say, over a very dramatic, sweeping shot of the. Of the institution from the air.

We hear the final words of Simon

Craig: I do have one lingering question though. What was the deal with Phil calling Amy and the whole he’s in Miami going to casino school?

Todd: I think that was just Phil’s way of getting him off the job. Like lying about it, just to say, look like he just pretended he called Amy. He didn’t really care. He just knew Phil went missing.

So he made up this story just so he could bring his friend in and get Phil off the job he wanted to do from the beginning.

Craig: That makes sense. I

Todd: mean, I think it’s a creepy atmosphere. FyreK movie, like you said, it’s a slow burn. Not a lot of happens, but if you’re the kind of person who’s in the mood for this, and you have the patience to sit down and go through it and you’re in the right mind, it has a build and a very satisfying concrete conclusion at the end.

It’s not one of these where you’re left with. Yeah, I kind of wonder, like, it’s up to your interpretation or whatnot. Not that I’m down on those movies, but it’s nice to see a movie where at least by the end, you know what happened and you can go back therefore. Yeah. Think about it and piece things together and figure it out.

In retrospect, the movies flaws are it’s pretty threadbare. It’s clearly just built around this. Creepy place. And it arguably is maybe not enough to hold your interest throughout just the idea. Ooh, we’re in a creepy old mental Institute. How many times have we seen that? But I think the payoff at the end.

Is all right. You know, I mean, at least it’s not two hours long. Yeah.

Craig: Yeah. I pretty much feel the same way. I, I think it’s a fine movie. I think it’s competently made. I think the acting is good and the atmosphere and the location is interesting and I found it to be a little slow. I didn’t love it. I didn’t hate it.

I thought it was all right. I don’t know that I’d necessarily recommend it. I don’t know. Cause it’s not, I like fun movies and this movie just wasn’t much fun. It was just kind of like, okay.

Todd: It’s not goofy. It’s not self aware. It’s not anything like that. It’s, it’s fairly serious. Psychological thriller drama kind of stuff.

Right. It’s heavy.

Craig: Yeah. It’s heady. I mean, it was fine. I think it’s a perfectly fine movie. It’s just N just not to my taste. That’s all.

Todd: All right. Well, thank you for listening to another episode. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with a friend. You can find [email protected]. Or you can find us on Facebook.

Just Google us, uh, two guys in a chainsaw. Please share us with a friend. We want to get more listeners. You can also find our YouTube channel. If you subscribe to us. There we can build up our listener base there as well and potentially reach another audience. Also this being a request. Thank you so much, Leah, for it.

This is not a movie that we probably would have chosen on our own. So we really appreciate your suggestion and we were happy to watch it and have something. Really interesting to talk about. If you have a new movie to introduce us to please just leave us a request at one of those places I just suggested, and we’d be happy to visit in the future until then.

I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two guys and a Chainsaw.

True confessions time: Both of us grew up watching Rhonda Shear host terrible horror movies on the USA Network’s weekend TV show, “Up All Night”. This bubbly and buxom host helped us through puberty and introduced us to many of the films we know and love today.

That’s why it was an incredible honor to interview her for this week’s special episode of 2 Guys & A Chainsaw. Thank you, Rhonda, for taking time out of your busy schedule to chat with us about your days in showbiz and your current endeavors!

Find Rhonda’s show on Facebook and check out her intimate apparel line, or just visit the YouTube Channel where all her content past and present lie. And have a listen at our discussion with this icon of 80’s and 90’s straight-to-cable horror.

If you’re looking for a horror film that feels timely and hits too close to home for comfort, then grab a bottle of your strongest whisky and high-tail it over to Shudder.

The Beach House is a Shudder streaming-service exclusive that came out last year but feels like it came out last month. A happy accident for a first time director and largely no-name cast, but not a happy watch for the rest of us. Our discussion gets a wee bit more philosophical and timely this week. Stay safe, everyone!

The Beach House (2019)

Episode 222, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Craig: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Craig.

Todd: And I’m Todd

Craig: and I picked the movie this week because I was just kind of messing around on Facebook and an ad popped up for a new Shudder exclusive called the beach house. And there was just a real quick, I don’t know, 15, 22nd preview for the movie. And I thought it looked interesting. So without even.

Consulting with Todd. I watched it and took notes. And last week after we finished recording, I said, I’ve already watched next week’s movie. So this is what we’re doing. And that is, are very intricate. Selection process at work

Todd: peek behind the curtain. Isn’t it magical?

Craig: Yeah. This is just something, you know, I, I finally, I don’t know, a few months ago when we all got locked up at home, I bit the bullet and paid the what like eight bucks or whatever it is.

Um, for a Shudder subscription and, uh, it’s actually a pretty nice service. There’s a lot of good stuff there. And, um, they actually, yeah, quite a few exclusive movies that I’ve watched and have enjoyed quite a bit. And so I figured I would give this one chance in all honesty. It’s now been well over since I watched it.

So I hope I can remember the details, but in the haze, that is my memory. I remember enjoying it. So, uh, I’m excited to hear what you have to say about it. Todd, what are, what are your thoughts? Did you have this wasn’t on your radar at all? Was it,

Todd: Oh God, no, no. I’d never heard of this before. At night probably being a Shudder exclusive.

I might never have heard of it since I don’t subscribe to shutter, but it was interesting to watch. And it said it was the directorial debut of a guy named Jeffrey, a Brown. Yeah. Who apparently does a really good job at location management, quite a few, whatever that is. I actually, I bet that’s a really the important job.

I’m sure. Super important. Like. Managing the entire location of the, you know, presumably of every place you’re shooting is probably a task, not for the faint of heart. So it’s great that Jeffrey Brown finally got his chance to strut his stuff, giving orders from behind the camera. And, uh, so I think what he did to, uh, two shorts before this, and this is his first feature length.

And I guess I looked up online and saw that it was picked up pretty quickly by AMC and shutter for distribution. Worldwide after it showed at a film festival in Europe. So yeah, I mean, I think this is the kind of movie I would expect to see at a film festival in Europe and not really on the big screen state side.

Yeah. Like not at my AMC 30 theater down the street, you know, it’s just a, it’s, it’s slow. Not in a boring way. It just as a slow pace, very simple story and takes a while to play out and really enjoys itself. I should say, you know, it’s, it’s a little artistic in that way, although it’s definitely not like an art house film.

It just takes its time with its imagery. And you can tell that the person behind the camera and the person setting up the shots is really interested in making sure that all those visuals count. And for that, I really respected it. I think in some ways also it’s a bit of a nod back to the fifties monster movies kind of, kind of, but the fifties monster movies really were well.

They were more action packed and exploitive than this movie really turns out to be. So this wasn’t that this wasn’t going for the cheesy aspect of the fifties monster movies. This was going for the modern day fifties monster movie, where here we are in 2020. I have very, very limited budget, just like they had back then.

And I wanted, you know, do something creepy about aliens or creatures or whatever invading and therefore here’s what I can put together based on that and stretch it out to an hour and a half. I hope that doesn’t sound like I’m really putting it down. I just am trying to put it in its context of how it.

Came across to me, you know what I’m saying?

Craig: I know what you’re saying, and you’re not wrong. I mean, it’s fairly small in scope that pretty much all kind of takes place in one place location, very limited cast. Uh, and it does fall back to some of those movies. In fact, the director, who’s also the writer of the movie and said that he was inspired by five films.

Some of which I’ve seen some of which I haven’t, uh, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Shivers, like crazy alien and the Quatermass Experiment. And I’ve seen at least some iteration of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and I’ve seen Alien and I can see the influence. Um, but you’re right. It is. Uh, kind of a simple movie and it doesn’t really tackle any major issues that haven’t been tackled before.

This is kind of much like those monster movies of the fifties. There’s kind of an environmental message to an extent. It’s not so much I think about it. You know, how the Godzilla movies were kind of a warning about yeah. Nuclear weaponry and all that kind of stuff. There, there doesn’t seem to really be a warning against any particular human activity here.

But it’s kind of about how we really are at the mercy of, of this planet that we live on. Right. It’s throughout the history of our planet. And probably, you know, if, if there are other planets with life on them, which I. Presume there might be. We go through phases and, and evolutionary stuff, and that’s kind of what, what this is about.

And it really, really deals with some of that kind of heavy handedly, uh, in places. But I didn’t find it to be. Pretentious. I just felt like it was kind of laying all its cards on the table. Yeah. And I didn’t have a problem with that. It’s fine. I mean, it opens up with some beautiful photography of the ocean.

I mean, it’s kind of, I don’t want to say out of focus, but much like the actual water of the ocean is. As, although in places it’s beautiful and crystal clear in reality, when you’re there, it’s not always that beautiful crystal clear thing. And so we’re, we’re, we’re getting this underwater stuff and we’re seeing all these particles and things in the water, and it goes down to the, uh, to the ocean floor where we see that.

For some reason, really unbeknownst to us, there must be some sort of Fisher or something that has opened on the ocean floor that is releasing all this gas. And we see all of this gas being released and, and diffusing, uh, up into the ocean. And obviously that’s going to cause some of the major issues, uh, in the film.

But beyond that, it’s, it’s also, at least it starts out kind of as a human drama too. Because, uh, the main characters, Randall and Emily both played by attractive young people who I’ve never seen before. Uh, Randall’s played by Noah Grosse and Emily’s played by Leon El Liberato night. Like I said, nice looking young people, I think perfectly fine actors.

I didn’t have any problems with any of the performances in this movie. Really. They’re a young couple and. They have come to Randall’s dad’s beach house, which is in this pretty nice looking beach community, but it’s the off season. So they think they’re going to kind of have this whole area to themselves for awhile.

Um, and you can tell right from the beginning that there’s a lot, maybe a little bit of tension between them. Nonetheless, the first thing they do when they get to the house is go upstairs and have sex. But afterwards, when Emily gets up, she goes downstairs and there are clear signs that they are not alone in the house.

And as it turns out, that’s the case and the movie builds some suspense, you know, you don’t know. Who else is there? It actually ends up being very innocent.  middle-aged couple who are our friends with Randall’s dad and who have, you know, asked also to use this place? Randall has not spoken to his dad in a while.

They’re kind of on the outs because he has recently dropped out of college. And that’s also kind of the crux of the conflict between him and his girlfriend, Emily too. But it starts out, you know, basically there’s the initial confusion of, Oh, we didn’t know anybody was going to be here. And the middle aged couple whose names are Mitch and Jane.

Jane played by Marianne Nagel. Mitch played by Jake Weber, who I recognized he was the husband and the TV show medium, um, with Patricia Arquette, which was a show that I really enjoyed. So I recognize it. But after the initial confusion, basically the middle aged couple just says, look, we’re here, but we would love for you to stay.

We would love the company. Um, and so they decided to stay. And the next, I don’t know what 20 minutes is really just kind of. A nice little pastiche of them spending time together.

Todd: Actually, I think that what the movie does is that sheets here a little bit, it creates a lot of a unknown tension and drama where there turns out to be nothing really, you know, the fact that they’re not alone.

And, uh, Mitch, his wife, Jane clearly has some problem, but they never really explained what it is. They don’t really allude to it, but you get the sense over their discussion. And then later on in the movie that Jane has some kind of disease, that’s maybe terminal. And, uh, that they’re coming out here as sort of a last time for her to enjoy the ocean that she’s always enjoyed and play in the sand that she’s always enjoyed because it might be the last time she can, there’s a little bit of melancholy between them, but before that, and kind of mixed in with that, it, they just seem a little off at times, especially I think Michas character is just, he’s very bubbly.

He’s very happy, almost a little too happy, but it turns out he’s just that kind of guy, I guess. And Jane is again, like a little more melancholy and throwing him. These looks every now and then when they’re talking with the kids, he gives a little bit of judgment to Randall when, when they’re at the dinner table and Randall’s, you know, first of all, Emily explains that she wants to be a scientist

Craig: thinking about grad school.

Yeah. I want to study astrobiology at the university of Washington. Great program.

Todd: What

Craig: is that life on other planets? Kind of, um, it actually has more to do with life on this planet. How organisms can adapt to extreme environments that we could not even survive. It’s um, it’s the point where chemistry becomes biology somewhere at the bottom of the ocean.

We think life is so fragile. Where the right combination of elements, the right temperature, the right distance from the sun. And, and this measure of time spent developing and changing billions of years and one thing slightly off, and we would be nothing dust or gas or something. I’m an office.

Todd: You know, classic movie case of isn’t it, it’s so great that a person with the knowledge that is necessary or somehow relates to the story and the theme and directly the problem they’re going to be confronting happens to be there.

You know, that actually doesn’t turn out to help her much. It doesn’t play out in that she, with this presumable college education and biology is any better equipped to deal with what ends up happening than anybody else. Which I thought was actually a bit of a surprise. I think I was waiting the whole movie for that to kick in and it never did.

So it was almost like a setup without a payoff, which is fine. Maybe that’s part of the point actually of the movie. There’s just a lot of drama here for a long time. As they are together. And you’re not quite sure if this couple is good or if it’s bad, or if these kids are in trouble, if it’s going to be kind of this weird home invasion type thing, eat the movie just plays it that way a little bit.

There’s just some tension over dinner. Right. And Mitch is talking about Randall’s father and about the times they had. Jay is talking about, Oh, how she remembers Mitch when he was a little kid and how there was some incident where he ate a ton of oysters. And apparently Mitch, I didn’t know if the two of them were vegetarians or what the deal was, but apparently Mitch was a little reluctant to eat an oyster, but they kind of cajole him.

He says, okay, so he downs one of the oysters, uh, but Emily doesn’t want to have anything to do with it. So she’s the only one at the table that does need the ice. The filmmaker also is sticking in images here of water. Yeah. Uh, earlier Emily, you know, when she goes to wash her face, Has her hands underneath the water in the sink and she’s moving her fingers around.

Like, there’s something odd about the texture of the water. And then they go and they pour wine and you get this really interesting closeup of the wineglass showing exactly like what you talked about earlier, about how in the ocean, there are always a little particles floating around and if you really zoom in on a glass of white wine, you can see the same thing.

Know, it’s, it’s almost exactly the same and they’re washing dishes and the camera really zooms in on the soapy water in the bottom of the sink and how the bubbles move. It’s very evocative of the ocean and, uh, you know, how the waves kind of the foam or whatever, crash on the shore, all these images. And especially when Emily is talking about.

Her interest in this biology. And then it shows a closeup of one of the oysters. This is something that didn’t hit me until much later, because I don’t really know a lot about oysters. I don’t eat oysters. I don’t care for them. Um, but I know, you know, they were eating them raw. And when they’re raw, I guess they’re alive.

Right. So. Is a closeup on this oyster really, really close that we’ve been getting these images already. So it looks very poetic, but the oyster moves a little bit like there’s a little bubble or a little Tenderloin side that kind of pops up and pops down. And at the time I thought, Oh, that’s a really interesting like image.

Like I never thought about the fact that oysters are alive and I guess they do move like a little bit, maybe when they’re in their shells. And now looking back, I’m kind of wondering. If that actually wasn’t something else inside the oyster there, that he was foreshadowing and very cleverly hiding amongst these other images.

I don’t know. Am I right about that? What do you, what did you think?

Craig: No, I think you’re absolutely right. The, it says though the director wanted to continue to continuously remind us that there’s something. About the water

Todd: and the time. Right.

Craig: Right. These oysters that they have, you know, Jane had the very first time we see her, she is coming in with this bucket.

She is, you know, she’s collected these oysters from the beach. So they are really fresh. Now. I don’t know, I I’ve eaten oysters. I’ve eaten oysters on the half shell and the ones I’ve eaten, which by the way, I just did it for the novelty of doing it. They’re gross. Yeah. But I don’t know if they’re supposed to be alive.

I mean, I suppose if they’re that fresh, maybe I don’t know, but it is unsettling at least from an American perspective. I know things are different in different parts of the world. But it’s unsettling to see your food move. You know, it’s not even indicated that I see it. It’s just for us, you know, so much of this is just for us to see, and it’s just a constant reminder.

And of course it’s always in the back of our mind, we know. That something is going on. We know there’s something in the water at one point Randall and Emily are having a tense conversation on the porch. And, and the reason that there’s tension between them is because apparently when he, I dropped out of school, he just kind of disappeared for awhile and yeah, and she didn’t know, you know, where or he was, or the status of their relationship.

And apparently the movie just picks up. Like right after he had come back and, and had asked her to go away with him for a while. Um, and they haven’t yet really resolved anything. He is, um, disillusioned with academia. He has a speech kind of where, when he’s talking to Mitch, Explaining, you know, why do I need to study all of this stuff?

You know, what good does this knowledge do? Me, which in the broader context of the movie is kind of an interesting concept, because like you said, in theory, Emily, she has a lot of knowledge about what’s going on, but it’s largely theoretical. And when the shit hits the fan, Her knowledge doesn’t really do it.

There’s nothing she can do. Yeah, no, she can recognize that something is happening, but the nature of what is happening is so alien and foreign, which she highlights when she’s talking about it, Jane asks or, you know, what would it be like if things had turned out differently or. If certain gases hadn’t been introduced and Jane says something like, I don’t know.

I mean, it potentially could just kind of be chaos, you know, just swirling chaos, which I think is major foreshadowing for what comes later. But when Randall and Emily are talking on the pool, Emily notices, what appears to be like maybe a slug or something on the porch stairs, but not a slug. You know, she just kind of grimaces at it cause it’s gross, but we again get a closeup of it and it doesn’t seem like anything being natural that we’re accustomed to.

Right. So there are all these. Little hints that are dropped and it all culminates, you know, after this dinner, they run out of wine, you know, Mitch kind of talk about maybe going into town to get more, but they’ve all been drinking so they shouldn’t drive. So Randall says, well, How do you guys feel about edibles and it’s kind of acute moment, like it’s tense in the movie, but it’s kind of cute because Emily, you know, obviously is uncomfortable, thinks that it’s inappropriate for her boyfriend to be making this proposition to this middle aged couple who they don’t know who they just met.

Plus. Emily has seen that Jane is heavily medicated. She, she opened up, um, the medicine cabinet and there was all kinds like oxycodone and, you know, Hardcore drugs in there. So she doesn’t know if it would be wise for her to be mixing medications, but ultimately, um, Mitch says, yeah, let’s do this. And so they do.

And so they take some edibles and it, and at first it’s fun, they get high and they’re having stoned conversations, but everybody is relaxed and seemingly having a good time. But then things start to get weird and they attribute it to the drugs, which I imagine you would, if you were in that space situation, they notice a fog and kind of a funny smell.

And eventually they notice some bioluminescence in the water water, which also appears to have. Come out of the water and it’s kind of clinging to the plant life near the shore. Now bioluminescence is a natural phenomenon. You know, there are all kinds of algae, uh, and, and other animal life that produce bioluminescence.

And it is very beautiful. And I can only imagine if you were stoned that it would be. Very beautiful.

So they’re interested in that, but we can see that they’re probably being influenced by more than just the drugs. Maybe not everybody would know this, but I’ll tell on myself. I’ve. Used edibles before legally it’s illegal in places in

Todd: the

Craig: United States now. And when I have visited those places, I’ve indulged in those legal activities and it is fun and it does make you loopy and, and whatnot.

Uh, and I also know from that experience that when you go. To these places where you can legally purchase this stuff that it’s on gradients, you know, there’s the weaker stuff, which is the stuff that I buy because it’s cheaper and because I’m not heavily experienced, but then there’s also far more potent stuff.

So in theory, you know, they could have taken some really potent. Edibles. And they could potentially be seeing things and, and having other sensory experiences. But based on my very limited experience, I knew I was like, this isn’t just the drugs thing more going on. And eventually, uh, Jane is so struck by the bioluminescent stuff that she decides to go down by the shore.

And when she goes down there, It’s shot very beautifully. And I have no idea how they did these effects, but it’s almost like she steps into. The world of

Todd: avatar. Yeah, exactly the same thing. Ooh, it’s an avatar for the little blue guy. He’s going to pop out, stay away from the tree of life.

Craig: There’s like slimy stuff on the trees.

And when she touches it, if I remember correctly, she kind of has an adverse reaction to it a little bit and seems a little bit worried. Meanwhile, up at the house house, Mitch, who has been talking to Emily notices that Jane is gone, becomes concerned and goes to look for her. At that point, Emily starts to feel.

Busy and a little bit sick to her stomach. And Randall has already passed out on the floor is odd. Smelling fog has gotten very thick and eventually Emily also passes out. And when they wake up in the morning, They think that they may still be feeling the effects of the drugs, which again is unlikely, but, you know, I can understand why they might think that it would be a logical, but, uh, they’re they’re not feeling well.

And. Mitch and Jane are missing. Um, and that’s when things start to get a little bit more bizarre, but at this point, you know, this isn’t a long movie. I don’t even remember how long it is.

Todd: It’s an hour and 27 minutes, I believe. And we are. Actually

Craig: a good half hour in, right.

Todd: Oh, we’re further than that.

We’re 45, two 50 minutes into the movie before this all starts happening. And that was one thing I was kind of continually looking at at my clock. Not, not that, you know, what was happening. Wasn’t interesting, but it was just kind of slowly paced and I got it. You know, I was like, okay, I see what’s happening.

I see what you know, what’s going on. I’m like, okay, now Mitch is back inside and he’s. Loopy and Emily’s looking for, for so-and-so and then Jane, and then Randall gets up and, you know, I’m watching all this go on. Finally, there’s that bioluminescence and Jane touches the tree. And I looked at, at the, at the counter was almost 50 minutes into the movie.

I thought, man, we’re almost two thirds of the way through this movie before the real action started. So, you know, the pacing, I think was a little slow for me and. Honestly, I feel like I don’t want to knock the movie in this way. I mean, you make the movie you want to make. And ultimately the movie was an entertaining hour and 27 minutes, but it could also have easily been a 50 minute black mirror episode.

Craig: Oh yeah. For sure it could be,

Todd: it would have been a faster pace. I think the action, when it did come would have felt a little more urgent and, uh, and all that, as it turns out, Emily finds Jane and Jane is in the kitchen, just sitting there, just really not moving. And she’s got pills next to her

Craig: and she doesn’t look good.

Todd: No, no. She slowly walks up around her and she has just like, Lesions and rations and stuff all over her skin. And she’s not really talking. And she kind of gets up on her own and is pretty much ignoring Jane who’s tries to help her to the stairwell, but then. She just kind of takes herself up the stairs and Randall comes down and sees her there as well and kind of passes.

And there’s this awkwardness it’s like, they want to help her, but they’re not sure if they should offer their help. You know, they don’t really know the nature of her sickness, how sick she is, how sensitive she is. She’s not asking them for help. She’s not even looking them in the face. So they’re more like, sort of, kind of respectfully keeping their distance as she goes upstairs.

But it turns out Mitch has nowhere to be found. So. Emily and Randall decided, Oh, let’s hit the beach for awhile. Well,

Craig: I think their thinking, I think their thinking is that they they’re looking for him. Like, yes, they were planning on going to the beach anyway, but I think that they are looking for him, but when they get down there, both of them.

Feel not well. Um, and so they ended up just sitting on the beach and, and falling asleep. And that was one of the scariest parts of the movie for me. Cause I was like, you didn’t even put on any sunscreen.

Todd: I know I was thinking the same thing.

Craig: You can’t fall asleep on the beach. It

Todd: looks so hot too. Didn’t it?

Like? He’s got those bright lights coming down on them and maybe just cause I’m a, I’m a red head with very fair skin. That was mine. First thought like they’re going to wake up looking just as bad as Jane. They fall asleep on this deep, but, um, Emily wakes up and when she wakes up, uh, Mitch is sitting next to her, kind of just talking, just ruminating about.

Jane and about why they were there. And this is where we kind of learn that he decided to bring her there because she loved this place so much. And it might be her last time to see the beach.

Craig: Right. And Randall’s gone by the way, Randall had woken up and it had stomach issues. And so he had to go back to the house.

Todd: He had to go back to the house and the camera shows us that he leaves his keys in his shoe, even though he didn’t need a key to get into the house that’s important for later. And then after kind of talking for awhile, Mitch stands up and says, I’m going to take a swim.

Craig: Well, their, their conversation is really interesting.

He seems like you said before this guy, because I know him from other stuff, he’s actually a very endearing man. The actor is endearing and you know, like you said, in the beginning, he’s a stranger. To them and to us. And so we don’t really know if he’s a good guy or if it’s a ruse or whatever it turns out.

It seems like he is a good guy, but something does seem off about him at this point. And she asks about Jane’s health. When you see someone change in front of, you know, won’t get any better, there’s no going back. Scares me to death. He specifically is talking about his wife and that is fortunately, I’ve not had to experience that.

But I have known people who have had since relatives loved ones, right? Whether it be physical or, or mental or whatever that they have to watch them deteriorate. And I can’t imagine how painful that would be. And I think that that’s conveyed well here, but I think that it’s also a larger commentary on what is going to be happening, you know?

Change is happening in their environment and they are powerless to stop it. All they can do is observe and ride the wave, whatever that may be B. And so I thought that that was kind of a poignant moment and he seems shaky and off. And like you said, he said, he’s going to go take a swim. And she watches him, walk down to the shore and she watches him, walk into the ocean calm and there is a bit.

What I thought was a really beautiful, I don’t know if it was a crane shot somehow they were able to, you know, have the, the camera elevated. So it’s this wide shot of them from above. And we watch as Emily watches him, just walk into the ocean and just keep walking. Until finally he’s completely submerged and he never comes back up and she panics, uh, as one would.

And, uh, then she runs down to the beach calling for him, which is when we find out that things are even more dire than we had known.

Todd: Yeah. She steps into this stuff, uh, and it looks like a jellyfish, but. Not, but not, yeah, really kind of clear and gooey and stringy, like, like cooked pasta and she’s instantly grossed out by it.

Ooh. You know, it reminded me of the inside. We did alien not long ago. Right. You remember the inside of a, of, of Bishop or not Bishop? Well, Bishop to in aliens in of Ash, Ash. Yeah. Gosh, it looks a lot like that anyway, like all over her foot and she jumps back and as she jumps back and pulls it off of her foot, She turns her foot over and under her foot is it’s like suddenly, like so quickly, it was like, this thing had almost burned a hole into her foot.

And there was a worm-like tentacle, Allah, the ruins working its way into her skin. Through this open, huge open sore that she suddenly has now, which, you know, she falls to the ground. She can’t walk on it and she chooses to drag herself away. And as she’s dragging herself away, we can also see along the beach, there are these large creatures washed up.

They look like giant slugs, but they’re really kind of hard to define, but they’re clearly lined up. Uh, along the edge of where the water is crashing against the beach, along with all this goo and. And weird bits of it. I guess it’s like a parasite type thing. Clearly what had been perhaps bioluminescent the night before, and it just totally blended into the environment when they’re sitting there on the beach, looking out at the water.

Right. Which I thought was interesting, this whole sense of what you can see and what you can’t see what’s around you, but you’re not aware of, right. Like you said, the, the commentary that this movie kind of makes that we are. Ultimately pretty subject to an environment that we do not fully know or understand.

And we’re not even aware of, you know, what’s going on around us, you know, at the microscopic level. You know, we have no idea what’s in that glass of wine what’s in that oyster that we ate, or even when we stare out across a, a beach, something, we should notice that it’s just so part of nature and not manmade and out of our experience that we don’t really notice it until it starts to affect us.

Yeah. What an interesting time we live in, and that this, that this movie would have happened to be made. Just a short year before, uh, the themes here resonate really well, very fortunate actually for the producers of this movie, that it came out when it did. I think it probably has a deeper impact on us now than it would have had in 2019.

Right. I thought that was interesting. Now the other thing I thought was interesting was I’m like pull that damn thing out of your foot. What just starts crawling back to the house. And there’s a really great shot actually. And one thing the director does really well at setting up some really interesting shots, but there’s a really great shot of her slowly coming up over.

The edge of the staircase, which, you know, this, this wooden staircase from the beach up to the house level is really tall. And she’s got to basically pull herself up at, I don’t know why she can’t hop on one foot at this point.

Craig: Right. I wondered too.

Todd: She does later. So it’s a little overdramatic. And once again, why didn’t she try to pull that thing out?

Was she afraid to touch it with her hand? Oh God. Like that was bothering me a lot.

Craig: I think that’s the answer to your question. I think that she was afraid of touching it. And I guess my instinct, as soon as I saw something boring into my body would be to try to grab it and stop it from doing now. But logically speaking, if it has the power, like, like you said, it was so fast, like she just stepped in it, like you would step in a dog turd and, you know, Picked her foot up right away.

It’s not like it lingered. And in that very, very brief time, it was able to bore this large hole in her foot and start making its way inside. You know, maybe it’s cause she’s a scientist. I don’t know. But logically it makes sense. I guess, that she might, I think that it would be dangerous to touch and ultimately she doesn’t touch it.

She crawls into the house and makes her way through the kitchen and she finds some vinegar that she pores. On her foot. And then she grabs, I think it was what, like, like barbecue tongs or. Something like kitchen, tongs and poles, the worm out, and it’s a long, it’s gotta be at least a foot long and it’s disgusting and it’s obviously painful.

And this arguably is the most uncomfortable. And gross part of the movie. It was hard to watch, you know, it’s it’s body horror for sure. And it was gruesome and well done. I thought, I mean, it, it, it was difficult to watch it looked, I don’t know if real is the right word, but convincing, um, and to see her just pull, you know, that worms stretching out, you know, over phone.

Foot before it finally comes out of her foot was gross. Um, and then I, I liked then that she immediately took one of Jane’s Oxy. I would have to

Todd: take one or two or three of those. Right. I love that. There’s a moment where it shows a closeup of that footage. She’s finally in the kitchen. Like finally, she’s going to do something about it.

And it’s like, That last little bit of the worm goes right inside and that it didn’t, she has to pour the distilled vinegar on it in order to basically get it to surface again, I guess is how it comes out. But yeah, you’re right. Every bit of that scene is gross and Randall. Um, who apparently had tried to help Jane upstairs, uh, is now throwing up and not in good straights and pale and sweating, uh, in really unable to stand.

And then Jane herself then breaks out of the, the room they go upstairs and suddenly, while they’re sitting there kind of trying to deal with him, you see behind them, it looks straight out of ’em. And our gosh, what’s that movie where those, those people with white eyes come up from the basement. Gosh, it was based on a full tree movie.

The house behind the cemetery is that they’re still here. Oh yeah. Remember that?

Craig: Yeah, we’re still here.

Todd: We’re still here. Yeah. It looked a lot like that. Actually. I was like, Oh, this movie is starting to feel like science fiction. Now it’s getting a little bit, even more horror as this almost zombie like Jane with these white glazed over eyes now is crawling towards them from the room and.

I mean the whole time here. Of course, I’m thinking zombie, I’m thinking infection. I’m like, all of you, people are touching each other way too much.

Yeah. She’s trying to clot them and trying to get out and, and, and they go downstairs and as Emily is tending to Randall, Jane ends up downstairs coming at them and they end up like going outside and they close the porch doors and she ties the door shut with a hose. And Jane. Yeah. Even as there w as these two are walking away from the house, Jane just like bursts through the glass of the door, like very zombie, like superhuman strength in a way, even though she looks like she’s weak as heck, it’s just crawling, crawling out.

So yeah. I mean, they’re all panicking. I mean, everything’s kind of hit the fan at this point.

Craig: They run to the neighbors because they don’t have the car keys because we had seen earlier that he had left them on the beach. Um, and Randall’s in really bad shape. Like he’s really sick and all of a sudden it’s still daytime, but I feel like dusk is approaching and that fog is starting to roll in again.

And they try, you know, at the neighbor’s house, but nobody answers the door. And then as they’re sitting there, they’re just kind of talking, you know, like, what are we going to do? The neighbor comes crawling around the corner, in the same condition that Jane was in. And so they run off and at this point night has fallen and they’re walking through the fog and they find a.

Service vehicle. Uh, the, the fog is really thick, but they can see the lights of the service vehicle flashing. And when they find it, I don’t remember. Why they don’t just take it, like maybe it’s crashed or something. I don’t know. Or maybe there’s no keys, but she’s able to get on a radio, like a CB radio in the car.

She hears a voice on the other end. Is there anybody there? We need help? I don’t know the address.

Yes. Yes, it has. It’s own the ocean. I, your, your, your car is here. It’s this number? Um, I don’t know the number, but we need help.

hello. So they break into a house

Todd: through a window. And then sit in the, in the bedroom, this house for awhile and try to figure out what they’re going to do and have a little bit of a moment where, where Randall is talking about how, you know, his life is worthless or something, you know, if he feels like he’s wasted, Um, his life it’s come to this.

It’s all kind of poignant. It’s all kind of coming into the theme. And it’s also really painful to see him going through this and seeing her, trying to come to terms with this at the same moment, I’m thinking my God woman, do you have no survival instinct at all? This thing just came across the radio, telling you to barricade yourself in the house and not breathe in the fog.

You’ve been surrounded by the fog this whole time. It’s pouring into the house. And you’re not doing anything to stop it or cover your face or cover his face.

Craig: I was so

Todd: irritated at this part of the movie that so much time passes and she kind of just. Goes ahead and breeze the Falk, you know, I mean, especially this girl, who’s supposed to have the scientific background.

I didn’t get it. And the fog is annoying. It’s a knowingly oppressive. It’s, it’s a really great low budget, special effect. It reminded me of the mist a bit, you know, for the fact this fog is so active, it feels like it’s constantly blowing, right? It’s like, It’s like it’s moving of its own accord and blowing around him.

So it really added to the tension and the urgency of what was going on. Like it’s never going to end and it’s coming at you. And I mean, my God put on a face mask, you know, get a sheet, wrap it around your mouth or something, you know,

Craig: bothered me too. I tried to justify it. Justify it to myself thinking they’re exhausted, they’re sick, you know, they’ve just made it in.

Um, but you’re right. I was thinking too, you know, just, just crawl out of that room and close the door late. At least that would be better. Yeah.  eventually they. Do I think that she tapes up door, uh, eventually to keep the fog from coming in, but you’re right. They linger in there for far too long, especially knowing, or having been warned that it’s dangerous, but Randall is just in progressively worse shape.

I mean, at this point I knew. He was a goner at me. He says, I can feel it churning inside side, but I also liked, you know, because they’re in a home, um, of course there’s a television there and a radio. And I can’t remember, I think she turns on the television and all of the stations are the same. It’s like the emergency broadcast.

Um, and I really liked this. I don’t know if it was tensional throwback, but it reminded me a lot of night of the living dead.

Todd: Yeah,

Craig: where they’re there wrapped in that house. And the only communication they have with the outside world are these emergency transmissions. It’s very quiet, but you can just kind of hear underneath these snippets of sound bites.

Uh, and at one point, yeah, I heard the phrase extreme  event. And, and so at this point, whether they put it together or not, it appears. That this isn’t just happening in this one location. It seems like this is widespread, uh, and that a large part of wherever they are, you know, whether it be the state, the country, the world, whatever, but something’s happening and it’s bad.

She wants to wait until morning and then go find a car. He says, I won’t make it that long. She does see some bloody footprints, which is pretty ominous. They, they thought they were alone in the house, but then she sees those bloody footprints, but she looks around, I don’t remember if she’s looking for anything in particular, but she finds herself in the basement and she finds scuba tanks, which makes perfect sense in a beach community.

And I was like, Oh

Todd: yeah,

Craig: Excellent. You know, like you can put those on, you can breathe clean auction. It’ll be great. But while she’s down there doing it, we see Randall again and he vomits up. Some sort of creature, you know, I don’t know, like one of those slug, like tentacle things and it’s disgusting. And then he kind of convulses and his eyes go white.

She’s still down in the basement trying to figure out these scuba tanks, which is when this, I guess you would call this movie a creature feature, but. I’m guessing because of the budget. We don’t see a lot of that, but there is one brief moment in the basement where she turns her flashlight, or maybe she just turns her head.

I don’t remember, but she looks over and on the floor is some kind of humanoid. Being seemingly feasting on a dead body. Now, the way that I interpreted it was that what we saw there in the basement is what Jane and Randall. We’re becoming, is

Todd: that, that’s what I thought. Yeah,

Craig: it was white and slimy. Like I said, humanoid, it kind of reminded me of in Poltergeist too, when Craig T Nelson barks up, that thing turns into like that humanoid thing.

It reminded me of that except like Outback,

Todd: Cal, uh, the worm or whatever. Yeah. I remember. Yeah.

Craig: And it was gross, but you only see it just for what seems like a second. And I actually think that that was a wise choice, you know, just let us have that image for just a second, almost to where we’re not even sure of what we saw and then just move on.

And we never see another one. I actually thought that was really kind of skillful as far as filmmaking on a budget.

Todd: And she just like us runs upstairs, uh, with the, uh, with the tanks. As soon as she gets up there, she sees that Randall’s completely gone. He’s basically crawling on the floor towards her, with his eyes, completely white vomiting out this stuff, just like Jane was.

And she has the foresight to understand what was happening and that he’s not, he’s beyond saving. And I think just to sort of put him out of his misery, you know, she, she picks up one of those tanks and knocks him in the head a couple of times until he’s dead, which I’m a little surprised at that stopped it.

I kind of got this feeling that this was a sort of parasite that would just. Yeah. I don’t know. Maybe I’ve watched too many zombie movies. Yeah,

Craig: because that, that didn’t bother me. These things, they’re organic, you know, they’re, they’re not zombies, you know, whatever this is and whatever in the world of this movie, it would be called.

It’s suggested that this is natural. You know, that this, this is just the next step in the evolution of our planet. Um, it’s an unfortunate step. For humankind. Uh, but it’s not evil. It’s just organic. And so, you know, it didn’t surprise me that she was able to kill it. Because I just thought of it as being some sort of organism.

Todd: Well, yeah, but I mean, the way that she killed it was hitting her boyfriend on the head with it. Um, w with the thing and knocking him out, you know, basically I would, I was sort of thinking, okay, well you make his brain stop or whatever, it wouldn’t stop the organism. That’s trying to take over his body.

That, that maybe was kind of a separate thing. But I guess, I guess not, I guess. In the world of this movie, the host needs to be alive, right. For this thing to, to survive.

Craig: I, and I just wanted to say that at this point, you know, this seems like. This is kind of the pentacle of the movie. Like the action is at its highest point.

And I looked at the runtime or whatever, and there are mere minutes of day smoothie left at this point. And so I was thinking, Whoa, what is going to happen? And, you know, my instinct was, Oh, well, it’s not going to end. Well, there’s not enough time for there to be. A happy ending,

Todd: right? Yeah. Yeah. She, she goes out, I guess she finds the keys.

I don’t remember. I guess she finds the keys or, or just the, there’s a truck in the driveway that has keys in it and she grabs the oxygen tanks for the first time. Of course, she waits until she’s out there inside the car with the cab close to actually put the tank on her mouth. But at least now she’s making an effort to breathe in something beyond the fog that has been battering, her left and right this whole time.

And she starts driving, but it’s super Wagner. She can’t see. And I’m not sure why she takes the. Oxygen tank out of her mouth, but she does that too, which also bothered me. But anyway, she kind of it’s to a point where she can see, but not quickly enough because the truck hits a tree and she hits her head on the steering wheel and flops out of the truck, kind of in a daze, crawls into a puddle.

And I thought, Oh, that’s not a puddle or whatever, and kind of flips over and passes out. And when she wakes up, uh, we see that she’s on the beach. So I’m not sure how she got there or if she was actually near the beach when she passed out. I’m not sure

Craig: it was unclear. Yeah. But she she’s laying there face up, but her eyes.

Are foggy now too, not entirely white, like the other people that we’ve seen, but clearly nearly there. And you know, I, again, it’s a beautiful day. Yay. This beach is gorgeous. The ocean is gorgeous. Um, but she’s just laying there in the bright sun, repeating to herself over and over again. Don’t be scared.

Don’t be scared. Don’t be scared. And then the tide. Rolls in over her. And when it pulls back out, she’s gone. And that’s the end of the movie. I was reading a little bit about it. I don’t even remember where I was reading, but, uh, I was, you know, when she was laying there saying, don’t be scared, don’t be scared.

I was thinking, you know, she’s just resigned herself. To her fate. Um, and she’s trying to comfort herself, but I read something about how, the reason that she’s resigning herself to her fate is because of her knowledge, she understands what’s happening. She understands that this is like an evolutionary process.

Yes. Uh, that

Todd: it doesn’t have malice

Craig: well, and that she maybe doesn’t fully understand what is happening to her, but she understands that whatever it is that’s happening, happening to her is just. A natural evolution. Um, and that it’s inevitable and to not be frightened, then I thought that symbolically it worked very well, but she’s just washes away, you know, she’s there one moment and then she’s gone, which I think is kind of the, the point of the movie is that sadly, realistically, That could happen to us at any moment, you know, any number of things that could happen, any number of things could happen, um, who knows maybe global virus could come out of nowhere and wipe us out, or, you know, again, uh, any number of things, you know, Our ecosystem, our planet, us as organisms, we’re really very fragile.

And really, we only exist in this very, very specific set of biological and chemical circumstances. And it would really take very little to upset that balance and. Potentially have catastrophic for us consequences now to say, you know, even in, even in the world of the movie, maybe the earth will be fine.

You know, maybe this is just. The next stage of the planet, but we won’t.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s very upsetting. It’s like you said this and, and, and to add to the doom and gloom, and the smallness that we’re talking about right now is that we, as humans are just infinitesimally small blip. In time, you know, compared to the history of the universe.

So one minute the dinosaurs were there and the next minute to our best understanding a comet or giant meteor hit our planet and

Craig: dinosaur.

Todd: Yeah. There was some thing like that and, and it wasn’t like over a thousand years, the dinosaurs disappeared. It became very, very quick. Um, it’s extinction event for those people.

It could happen to us too. And it would probably happen to us in a way like this, right. If it’s not a big frickin meeting. Right, right. But it’s, it’s that classic war of the worlds thing to write a year, these powerful aliens come down to the planet and, uh, and they’re bested by a tiny bacteria. You know, something again that they couldn’t possibly foreseen or understood or have any defense against.

And that’s really fricking depressing to watch and to have to come to terms with during this time, you know, I mean, honestly, I don’t know if I’ve felt so nervous as I have recently and this movie didn’t help.

Craig: Yeah. It’s a horrible, I thought about it is I thought about that too. And of course I was thinking about our current.

Circumstances when I was watching this movie, but it also, it’s not comforting in any way, but it does kind of make me look at things yeah. In the bigger picture, you know, the, these things happen. Um, and, and they always have, and they probably always well and much like. Emily, uh, we just kind of have to roll with it and do our best and hope for the best.

And hopefully, uh, things will work out. Um, and, and I I’m trying, the movie is grim. You know, it doesn’t work out for them, but as fragile as we are, we’ve also proven to be really. Durable long lasting, um, as a species. And, uh, so hopefully that will continue and, and I’m, I’m trying to be optimistic.

Todd: Thank you for your injection of a Ray of hope on everything, Craig, it’s a nice attempt while

Craig: meanwhile.

Wear a mask, wash your hands, stay six feet away from people at home. If you can

Todd: read the far, all of this together,

Craig: and if you see people’s eyes go in white. Oh, get out of Dodge.

All right. Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of two guys in the chainsaw. If you enjoyed this episode, we have a huge back catalog that you can find all over the internet. Just Google search us. We are on all the platforms where you can find podcasts. Google play iTunes, Stitcher we’re on Facebook.

We’ve got a webpage. And if you do visit our Facebook page or our webpage, please feel free to drop us a comment question, or request for a movie for us to watch. If you’d like, we’ve been doing a lot of requests lately, and I have a feeling that we will continue to do that not every week, at least periodically.

And we love to engage with you. So talk to us. But until that time, I’m Craig.

Todd: And I’m Todd.

Craig: With two guys and a Chainsaw.

For our tribute to the late, great British actor Ian Holm, we came around to his role as Ash in 1979’s Alien. If you haven’t seen Ridley Scott’s original Alien by now…well, we can probably forgive you. After all, its intense and exciting sequel (Aliens) is where most of us have spent the majority of our Alien-watching hours. Nevertheless, there is nothing to criticize about this incredible film, which set the stage for a franchise that shows no signs of stopping today.

With one glance at the cast list, it should go without saying that this is an incredibly well-acted movie, and Ian Holm’s powerful-yet-understated performance is among the top of the ensemble. We were sooo happy to finally have a good excuse to revisit this landmark film.

Alien (1979)

Episode 221, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw.

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of two guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd

Craig: and I’m Craig.

Todd: We’re taking a break from requests this week because we decided to do a tribute episode just a little while ago. The famous they’re very, very prolific actor. Ian Holm died. So as is usual, when a famous actor dies, we look back and say, ah, did, did he or she do any horror movies?

And it turns out Ian home did a couple horror movies. One of which very, very, very, very familiar to all of us. 1979’s, Alien, actually starring a bevy of famous performers or performers who would go on to be famous and directed by Ridley Scott, a fantastic director in one of his very first feature films that he has directed.

So this movie sent a whole bunch of people off to start him including it’s star Sigourney Weaver. So we’re going to have a lot, a lot to talk about. With this movie, Craig and I, as you probably well know, shy away a little bit from the more iconic and popular horror movies, because as we often say, what can we say about this movie that can’t already be said?

And there are a ton of things to say about this movie, which we will definitely not be able to cram into one hour podcast, but be that as it may. Uh, it’s worth talking about just to memorialize Ian home and his fantastic performance. I don’t know Craig, uh, I, I went into this movie thinking I’d probably seen it a dozen times.

Then I realized that what I had seen a dozen times was SQL aliens. Which, um, is a lot more action packed and arguably more iconic than this movie itself. But as I watched it, I figured maybe I’ve seen it once or twice. And I hadn’t seen this in a while and I was super happy to be watching this, this time around on a gigantic screen in my living room, in the dark.

Alone, uh, which I felt like a, is the perfect atmosphere to watch it and was quite taken by just the severe atmosphere and the dread of parent in this movie. And that stirred my memory reminded me. I liked it so much. So, um, yeah. Very happy to revisit this movie. How about you, Craig? What’s your history with it?

Craig: Very similar to yours. Uh, for whatever reason, I grew up watching aliens, uh, the cul, um, it was just one of those things where it was on a VHS tape at my house. My dad must have taped it on cable or, uh, dubbed the tape or something, but we had it and it was one of the ones that I popped in a lot. But like you, um, I didn’t watch the original.

As often, and I didn’t see the original until well, after I had seen, uh, the sequel the first sequel, um, And I agree with your assessment entirely, uh, aliens is far more action packed. It’s on a larger scale as implied by the titles in this film, there’s really only a one, um, alien that they have to deal with.

Whereas there’s a whole bevy of them in the cul. And like you said, Even though the sequel is perhaps more action packed. Revisiting this movie was just very impressed, um, at how much I enjoyed it and how good it was, especially considering the fact that I always take notes, more notes than is necessary really on plot details.

And I didn’t take it take nearly as many notes this time around as I usually do, because. As far as plotting is concerned. I don’t want to say not a whole lot happens cause that’s not really true. Um, but the plot is fairly direct, a fairly direct series of events. Um, but that really isn’t what was most impressive to me.

What was most impressive to me was, um, the atmosphere, like you said, um, the characters, the acting. And, um, the cinematography, I mean, I. This movie never gets boring. Cause it’s always so interesting just to look. Yeah. Uh, it’s just put together so well and it looks so good. Uh, and considering the fact that it was made in 1979, as far as quality is concerned.

And to be fair, we watched the director’s cut, which is different than the theatrical release. There are. Um, multiple scenes in the version that we watched that did not originally appear in the theatrical release and because this is the director’s cut, I’m sure that it’s been cleaned up real nice. Um, so it almost looks as though it could have been made today.

Uh, and it’s, I think that it’s held up really, really well.

Todd: Yeah. And the thing that makes it not look like it was made. Today is because it is so obvious that everything on this set, everything, they touch everything in this movie is 100% real and practical. Yeah. The sets are. Amazing. The sets are so good.

The, and they built these full size sets that took up a all sound stages of corridors when they go out onto the alien planet and they end up in this big alien ship, this gigantic room, uh, that has also just a very iconic shot from the movie where you have this. Uh, large sort of mummified, uh, other alien creature that’s there and gives you the sense that, you know, this ship has been abandoned for a very long time.

And then later on, they go and find these eggs. I mean, everybody should know this story and these scenes by now, all of this stuff was built. Full-size real. And then, you know, for the other kind of special effects shots incorporated with some fantastic miniature work, this movie comes right in the middle of the star Wars era.

So just a few years before this, when we were, when everybody was blown away, By the majesty and the special effects of star Wars and presenting a very different image of space than we had been accustomed to before that, you know what? I grew up watching star Wars, of course, but also, as I’ve said before on here, a lot of science fiction movies with my dad from the fifties and the sixties, uh, that he had on tape.

And a lot of them were super cheesy and super corny, but they all had this very gleaming. Crisp clean, nice futuristic type view of space, right? That everything, everything was polished and people were wearing these really pressed and bright, colorful uniforms, these bubbles over their heads, uh, going out on these fantastic planets and those movies are a joy to watch.

I love that vision. Of the future, but when star Wars came along, it gave us what we often call a very, lived in look of the future, right? Where, where we have all this advanced technology, but it’s a little worn, it’s a little analog at times it breaks it, it needs to be, be shaken and soldered and stuff like that.

And you get the feeling that a lot of stuff has been cobbled together. Over the centuries to make what people make. And then this movie comes along and it’s kind of like that, but in a different way, I feel like this world that this takes place in, in this, the ship that this takes place in is a, is a salvage ship.

It goes around and, and sort of salvaged this junk from space and then brings it back to earth. And so it’s enormous because it’s towing. A whole bunch of stuff. And every character in this movie, they’re not swash buckling, adventurers, traveling the galaxy they’re blue collar workers. They’re the, they’re the very solid blue collar workers of the future who are bitching about their job from day one, bitching about how much they’re going to get paid.

Are they going to get a cut? It’s like people standing around and complaining about the union. They all work for a company. That’s never named it’s named later. Uh, actually there are some words, uh, what is it? Yutani something

Craig: Waylon Yutani I think.

Todd: And in future movies that gets incorporated more in, but in tit, but in this movie, they just refer to it as their company.

And they’re, they’re bitching about the man and, uh, arguing that they’ve been woken up from this, this sleep to deal with some issue, something that, you know, has come up on this planet that they’ve got to explore, um, some distress signal. And the computer has taken them out of their deep sleep as they’re on their way back to earth, because it’s their obligation.

According to code section, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That anytime there is some. Strange transmission from an alien planet, they have to go explore it. It’s part of their contract, right? So they’re not out there, nobody exploring space. The they’re a bunch of blue collar workers on a salvage crew. They really don’t want to do it.

They hope they’re going to get paid for it and get their cut of whatever they might happen to find for the company. On their way home and what an interesting setting, you know, for a space movie that at the time, especially was totally unique.

Craig: Yeah. I, and that’s part of what makes watching the film so interesting too, is because they are.

Relatable characters. Um, and part of what makes them relatable is that their relationships, uh, seem realistic. You know, they, they have relationships with one on another. Uh, some of them positive, some of them tense. That’s not really the focus, it’s more in the background, but it paints and realistic. Isn’t the right word, but a believable.

Picture of this group of people. I just forgot something, man. Before we talk, I think we already discussed the bonus situation right now. We think we deserve full shares.

Todd: Right?

Craig: You see mr. Park and I feel that the bonus situation isn’t ever been on a,

Todd: an equitable level.

Craig: You get what? You can track it for,

Todd: like everybody else.

Craig: Yes. But everybody else gets more than mother wants to talk to you. And so I found the characters. I was, I was invested in them. Um, I was interested in them. I was interested in their motivations and it’s interesting to read. There is so much that you can read about the history of this film, the making of the movie, the different iterations that it went through, ideas that were thought of, but not used.

And, uh, relationships was one of those things. I mean, initially, There were going to be, I don’t know if romantic is the right word, but they were going to be romantic and sexual relationships. They wanted to explore that with the crew. They wanted to of suggest a casual sexual relationships between some of the crew members.

Because if you’re going to be confined with six other people for. Years or however long they’re going to be out there. Um, they thought that it would only be natural, that there would be some kind of sexual relationships between these people and as the franchise went on and grew. Some of the backstory of some of these characters was even adapted and added to yeah.

At one point in time on the extras for one of the films, um, a special edition of one of the films, the history of. The crew here, um, their, their biographies was explored and it was suggested that Tom’s Garrett’s character, Dallas and Veronica Cartwright’s character Lambert, um, had actually been born the opposite gender, but had gone through gender reassignment.

Um, really? Yeah. They kind of backpedaled on that after they were with some fan outcry. But, uh, I just think that it’s interesting that, you know, they’re thinking about all of these things and it comes through in the performances. And like you said, the, you know, these are people, some of them at the beginning of their careers, Most notably Sigourney Weaver, who was a young actress in this movie, this launched her to fame and she’s had an amazing career, um, and continues to have an amazing career.

Um, but others, you know, Tom Skerritt as Dallas, Veronica Cartwright, uh, Veronica Cartwright, I already mentioned as Lambert Harry Dean Stanton, um, as Brett John hurt his cane and home is Ash almost the entire. Ensemble cast went on to do great things, which I think speaks to their talent, which is on full display here.

Todd: Yeah. And most of them pretty much with the exception of Sigourney Weaver, honestly, and maybe Yaphet Kotto Parker. All of them actually were pretty well established before they came in. What’s kind of remarkable as this movie that started out as what was to be this. Fairly low budget, film that on its own face.

If you just re I suppose if you just read the script comes across as more or less another one of these. Low budget, Saifai alien and space, horror movies. Um, you know, we’ve done galaxy of terror, which did actually come after this, but not long after this. And, and, um, before this in 1974 was dark star, which was directed by John Carpenter on paper, this script, and the way that, just the plot, like you said, it’s so simple.

And so basic the dialogue. Fairly sparse to this movie could have gone either way, right? It could have just been another somewhat schlocky, scary stuff in space happens, movie or it because of the people attached and the money that was eventually poured into it, the budget was doubled and that’s when some of these other actors started getting interested in it.

When Ridley Scott was attached, when the budget was doubled, then they brought on HR, a guy. Would you say Geiger or Gieger? I’m not thinking it’s Geiger. It’s Geiger, right? Um, Oh, who was a famous artist at the time and is 100% responsible for the iconic look and design of the alien and the sets, which just becomes a part of the DNA.

Of this movie in the series, it’s just a whole convergence of talent that just elevated this into what you know, became the birth, the seed of an iconic series. And you can’t have an iconic series without coming from strong roots. It’s it’s kind of a miracle, really. I don’t want to sound like I’m playing it up, but no, read more about the movie and about what, you know, the process of making this movie.

It could have gone either way and it completely went in the other direction to become, like I said, the roots of a very. Very strong, very solid concept that we celebrate today. And we can watch a movie, like you said, like this today and holds up, it looks like it was made yesterday. It’s fantastic.

Craig: Right?

Yeah. And, and a lot of that is owed to star Wars, as you suggested earlier, because before the success of star Wars, nobody was interested in the script. Uh, not nobody. That’s not true. Roger Corman wanted to do it. And, uh, it would have been right up his alley and had he done it, you know, it would have been completely different.

I, you and I might still talk about it, but I don’t think that it would’ve had the kind of, uh, success that the movie ended up having as all of these different elements started to come together. I think that everybody involved started to realize, um, just how. Good. This could potentially be okay. In fact, I think it was Tom Skerritt, um, who was initially approached for a role and he turned it down.

But then after some rewrites and after some. Um, of the other people involved got on board, he went back and renegotiated and said that he would do it, but before the film even came out, he renegotiated or try to, I don’t remember if it was finalized, but he tried to renegotiate his salary. So instead of taking a set salary, he wanted to take a percentage of, um, the profits, which you have to have a lot of faith in a project if you’re willing to take that kind of risk and, and, uh, whether or not that worked out for him.

I don’t know. But it was a smart move. Like, yeah. I think the design is, uh, a big part of what makes it so interesting that being said. The monster itself, which in the franchise would eventually go on to become known as the Xenomorph it, you barely see it. Uh, I think it has like three or four minutes of screen time in that amount of screen time.

You very, very rarely see it, uh, in full, um, and hardly ever see it straight on from the front. It’s almost always in silhouette. The movie is, um, Fairly dark, but, uh, and the sets are fairly dark and you’ve got the industrial look of the no stroma, which is, is there ship, but then you’ve also got the alien ship.

And once the alien is loose on the no stromal, the alien starts to. Change the environment as well. And that’s something that always throughout the entirety of this series has been so interesting to me are the set pieces because Geiger’s design makes the interiors of these locations look almost organic.

The structures look like. Bones, um, and, and taught flesh. And so you almost feel like you’re in the belly of a beast a lot of the time and the, I just can’t. Praise it enough for how good it looks. The design is just, it’s kind of mind blowing. I can’t think really of anything to compare it to today that I’ve been as impressed by

Todd: it’s highly original.

Right. It’s super original. And you know, Geiger’s artwork is original. If you look at his stuff, uh, he’s German, it’s very, very sexual in. It explores the boundaries between, I mean, like you said, in the movie, the mechanical and the biological, it’s, it’s very much like a Saifai type of, um, David Cronenberg, right?

There’s, there’s a sort of sense of body horror about the environment itself. Uh, in this movie and that also plays to some of the jump scares and some of the shock in this movie where you’re seeing what you think is mechanical stuff. And then it turns out that the aliens there. Right. Right. And, and he’s been there in front of you the entire time because he blends and so well with the mechanical environment, just the design of his body.

So there’s a scene, I think is unique to the director’s cut, but. When, one of the characters, that’s Harry Dean, Stan’s character wanders in, and they’re looking for the alien, that’s loosened the ship. And there he’s in this very tall room with these chains hanging down and clanging together and water dripping down and he’s looking up and it’s, it’s eerie.

We know something’s going on. He’s a little spooked by things. And when he looks up, he sees these chains swinging, and this shot is so good because it’s, it’s half in darkness as it’s mostly shadow, but it’s just a shot above of the chain swinging. And if you notice. And you almost can’t help but notice, but I think first time around, if you’d seen this movie for the first time, you might know, is it the aliens right there swinging with the chains, kind of curled up into a ball, covering half the screen, but it’s so subtle.

Cause the alien mixes in with the environment. So much that it’s quite possible, you could and would miss it in later on. Alien kind of comes, is hiding in a part of the shuttle and the camera lingers quite long on this particular shot of Ripley walking around and just doing mundane stuff. And it’s not until the alien starts to move and shift out of.

It’s positioned that you’re just like, Whoa, that that’s not the side of it inside of the, the corridor. That’s like the frickin aliens head right there among the pipes. And I think that the series all along really plays us to its advantage. It’s so great. Uh, this, this mingling and that creates a very uncomfortable feeling because this is very.

Unnatural for us. Right. Right. At this point, we probably got to talk a little bit about the, the writer of the movie, which is kind of shocking. Dan O’Bannon, who we’ve talked about. We’ve done several of his movies and he has, we probably, by the end of this podcast, we’ll have done every Dan O’Bannon movie that he’s made because he hasn’t made it.

Too many of them, but the ones that he’s made are worth talking about this was a second script. He did dark star before this in 1974, which was directed by John Carpenter, which he was very disappointed in because it was low budget. It kind of came across as a little shot schlocky, and he really wanted to amp up and try the alien concept again, but do it on a more visceral level.

That’s going to be. More pure horror. Uh, and he got together with a collaborator, his Ronald shoe set, and the two of them worked very, very hard at the story. And I, again, probably part of the secret sauce that makes this work is that O’Bannon and shoe sat were constantly involved. This movie from the beginning to the end, they were allowed on the set.

They gave opinions. They gave opinions that turned out to be very smart and, and iconic parts of the series. Like they were originally gonna make the face hugger alien painted green. And when Oban happened to be on the set and see it on painted, he really was taken by the. Flashy, almost human look of it when it was unpainted and said, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Let’s, let’s keep this, this sort of flesh tone color, which is beautiful choice. Yeah. And just adds to it that, so they were so intricately involved in the movie and into the point of bringing in Geiger, uh, and, and a lot of these other people. That, uh, I think that that just speaks to you need a vision.

You know, you need a vision to have a good movie and you can’t always make a really good movie by committee. Certain things happen because different people contribute. But if you don’t have sort of a singular vision of one or two people really pushing and driving the project through and making ultimate decisions and, and strong suggestions, You don’t always end up with such a strong artistic piece as you would when this passes through 15 different writers and then the writer never sees it again and people make changes and stuff.

And then at the end of the day, you know, you hear this awful all the time about movies is the writer looks at the movie and wants to disown it from it. Right. Because what they see on screen doesn’t seem to match what they had in mind when they were writing the script. But yeah, Daniel Bannon, right? I mean, he had a dark star.

He did dead and buried, which we did. Um, he did the, uh, original story for a portion of heavy metal, which is, uh, a scifi type animated movie. That’s a bit notorious. And then he returned to the living dead, which. It was hilarious zombie movie and that I, I love and is tonic, but totally out there schlocky right.

Life force, which we will probably do at some point and Toby Hooper, Saifai movie invaders from Mars, the remake, which we did, and then fricking total recall. Right. Which I still to this day think is one of the best movies out there. What a great career this guy had, even though he only did about a half, a dozen movies.

And to look back at. From the guy who did return to the living dead and say, Oh, by the way, he’s one of the singular minds behind alien. And the alien franchise is, is a bit mind blowing

Craig: is, but to an extent, you know, it is a movie made. By committee because, uh, as, as his story was ultimately, initially the concept was just an alien on a spaceship and it just grew from there.

And there were some elements of the story that. Ultimately ended up as part of the movie that O’Bannon, wasn’t a big fan of. And one of those, um, was the case, the introduction of the character Ash, which is Ian Holmes, a character in the movie, you know, as it turns out. So they are woken up mid journey, actually they’re on their way home.

And as you said, sent to this alien planet to check out what they initially think is a distress call, but what they ultimately. Realize as a warning to stay away. And that’s how the alien gets on board. After they explore that place. And the face hugger attaches itself to a John Hurt’s character cane, and they bring it onto the ship.

Initially, the idea was that the ship’s computer, which they call mother was the one who. Had a vested interest and that Vester it’s vested interest was just science for bringing the alien on board, um, that in some way the, the ship itself had motivation. Um, but they ultimately decided that that was too much like, um, 2001, a space Odyssey with how so they introduced this character of Ash to kind of be an intermediary between the science world and also the corporate world that he is a.

Had been placed there by, and O’Bannon, wasn’t a huge fan of it, but they went with the idea anyway. And I think that it, it worked out very well. You mentioned, uh, Geiger’s work, uh, being darkly sexual, uh, and it is, and I think that watching this, the last time I watched this, I had to have been in my twenties and I’m significantly older now.

And I think that some of the undertones that I hadn’t really. Considered before were kind of glaring to me this time. I didn’t realize how much sexuality there was, uh, in, in the movie, especially with the alien. It never had really occurred to me that the face hugger. Implanting the alien into Kane’s chest is really kind of a rape metaphor.

He’s impregnated basically. And I read in doing the research for this, that they very specifically wanted it to be a male character who was net position. Um, when these characters were written, they were written without gender and. Decisions were made about who would be a woman and who would be a man only later on when they started doing casting and Sigourney Weaver’s character, Ripley, most people who were involved had just, I expected that that would be played by a man.

Um, Sigourney Weaver went on. In her career, several times to play characters that were originally written for men. I think that it was Ridley Scott, who was insistent that it be a man who is violated in that way and impregnated in that way, because he specifically wanted to make his male audience feel that kind of discomfort.

When we usually see women in that kind of peril. And I had never thought of that. Before, and it’s really interesting. Initially the alien itself was going to be more sexual in nature. Um, there was a, the, a scene, a sex scene between Dallas and Ripley and in one iteration of that scene, which was scripted, but never shot.

The alien was supposed to observe them having sex and not attack them because it was in some way titillated or aroused in the film. Allie, um, Sigourney Weaver is the last woman standing and she ends up alone on a shuttle where she thinks that she’s safe. Um, and so she begins to disrobe. So that she can go into cryosleep the film got some criticism about that because they felt, uh, critics felt that it was just, you know, unnecessary groups  to have her disrobe.

But the initial concept was that the alien, which is on the ship with her, the knowns to her was again, going to see her undressed and was going to be sexually aroused. Right. They were going to deal with that in some way now, frankly. I think it was probably for the best that they ended up eliminating some of those elements, but there are still hints and suggestions of them there.

Uh, and I do think that that adds to kind of the little level of discomfort, intention that you feel throughout. Basically the course of the whole movie, or at least from the time that they land on the alien planet.

Todd: You’re absolutely right about that. Whether you’re aware of it or not, even there was something that I noticed this time around because I was, again, I had this giant screen in front of me and I was quite taken in by it when they land on that alien planet to investigate the ship.

And they see this giant ship, which I guess they, they nicknamed the big croissant because it’s, it’s kind of U shaped. But again, this ends up. Coming back later, in fact, in the more recent movies Prometheus’s or we see whatever race created the ship, which is still, I think, a little unknown, the ship comes up again and again, anyway, as they’re walking towards the ship where they enter the ship are through these.

Openings in the sides that are clearly like vaginas, you know, they’re tall and a little narrow and have like kind of a little lip around them. And that of course totally blew by me when I was a kid watching this movie and then go into it. And like you said, they’re walking down these corridors, which seem very organic.

Uh they’re they’re long and they’re narrow and they’re round, but they have this. Texture to the inside and they’re slimy and they’re drippy and there’s a little bit like bones, but also sort of like rigid sets very much like a, kind of like a vaginal canal. And they go in again to this giant room where there’s that big mummified, whatever this race of aliens was that piloted that ship, which is obviously larger than a human sitting in.

Who knows some kind of control panel, observational thing in the middle of the room. And the, you know, this movie was so low budget that they were still trying. Was it, you know, they’re still trying to save money on this. And Ridley Scott had to fight to get these full size sets made for this giant room, which is a beautiful, beautiful part of the movie.

It ended up suing dual purpose. They made half of the room. Well, half of the wall, basically of this giant room and put this guy in the middle, who’s on kind of a swivel platform so that they could turn it around and, you know, they could swivel this guy around and film it from different angles and just make that one wall look like it was all of the wall in the room it’s kind of circular.

And then they removed that. Apparently part of the set, just that, that circular. Platform he was on and that same room became the egg room, which they repriced down into from there a funny bit of trivia, apparently, you know, there’s this really cool effect when they repel into this egg room that all of these little eggs are for.

They’re not little, but you know, knee-high eggs are down there in the bottom of this room and they’re covered with this kind of missed. That just seems to. Hang over them like a blanket.

Craig: It’s

Todd: a very odd effect.

Craig: It is completely enclosed and it’s full of leathery objects, like eggs or something.

A layer of mess, just covering the excellent.

Todd: Maybe the idea is that the penetration of this mist somehow wakes up the eggs a little bit, but they use the laser that they use to cut across the mist and the bottom it’s room to create that effect. They borrowed it from the soundstage next door where the, who. Yeah, putting together their show and they were lasers from their show that they literally borrowed, uh, to use for this movie to fantastic the stick effect.

But anyway, you know, you’ve got these eggs, eggs, and the eggs obviously are, are long and tall and very organic and gross, and he can see things moving inside of them. And that opens up in his face, hugger jumps out. And like you said, basically rapes this guy, shoves his. It’s it’s long per viscous down into his throat and lays this egg in, in his stomach, unbeknownst to everybody at the time with this hand over the face.

And I think, uh, everybody was trying to figure out, uh, well, Dan O’Bannon and Shu sat when they were talking about the script and trying to work out the elements of the story. How are we going to get the alien on the ship? And Shu said just. Came up with the idea. Well, if one of them,

I got developed into this face hugger thing, which the design of which is great and O’Bannon had a lot to do with the final design of this. A few designs went through it, but he ended up more or less drawing what ended up being it. And it looks fairly human. It has these long, they look like boney fingers.

Uh, grasping around both sides of this person’s face, you know, and it’s not going to let go until it’s done what it needs to do. It’s very violating and very unsettling when you see it. It’s very rapey, even though it’s just sitting there and this guy can’t move, they bring it on board the ship.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s like, both of us have said seeing this as younger people, that just didn’t really even cross my mind.

But now as an adult, it seems so apparent. Uh, and I think that that’s interesting that it can. It didn’t feel sexual or inappropriate to me, me as a kid, but as an adult, there’s just that extra added level of. Just comfort, um, when you consider it in that light. And, uh, you know, all of that that you’ve talked about is also interesting.

I E that the space jockey scene, which is the big alien scene, that was a huge set, but they also did interesting trickery. Um, it was built to scale and they didn’t. Film the wide shots with the actual actors. In fact, they used kids. Um, and I think one of the kids happened to be Christian bale and then the other two, uh, were Ridley Scott’s kids.

So they put these, so they put these kids in these spacesuits for the wide shots so that it would look. That much bigger. And it does. I mean, it just looks enormous and it’s so impressive to look at when they do go back. By the way I read the novelization of this and the novelization is quite good. And it includes not only all of the deleted scenes that were restored in the director’s cut, but there’s also some additional scenes that were never filmed.

Um, and one of those was how. Lambert and Dallas guy came back to the ship and then later on, when the alien is loosen in the ship and they have to figure out what they’re going to do about it, they devise these weapons and stuff. There was a lot more description of actually, you know, designing these weapons and designing the net that would hold this thing.

Um, if you’re a fan of this movie and you haven’t read the novelization, I would recommend it. It’s just got some. Cool little extra fill in the blank sort of stuff. But one of the things that struck me so much watching it this time around was how timely it was, was because. Or, or it is today because Dallas and Lambert bring cane back to the ship and he’s got this thing on his face and, and they are demanding to be let in, but Ripley refuses to let them them in because it goes against code.

Um, and she says, which I think. This time around had to be my favorite line from the movie. If we break quarantine, we could all die.

Todd: And I was like,

Craig: Holy shit.

Todd: Right, right here, we’re gonna

Craig: clean. Let us

Todd: say what happened to Kane. I

Craig: don’t think it was attached itself to him. We have to get him to the infirmary right away.

Todd: What kind of thing? I need a clear definition from the hatch.

Craig: Wait a minute. We let it in the ship could be infected. You know, the quarantine procedures for decontamination. It could die in 24 hours. Open the edge. Listen to me. If we break quarantine, we could all die. Huh? The job in the goddamn hatch, we have to get them inside.

No, I can’t do that. And if you wouldn’t want a position, you’d do the same thing hats

Todd: right now. It has a whole new meaning to us now, doesn’t it?

Craig: Yes. And she, and she says it more than once. Like they discuss it multiple times. How, you know, there are these protocols that for their own safety and preservation, they should not have allowed any of them back on the ship with this unknown.

Parasite or whatever it is. And I thought, wow, what a, what a timely issue.

Todd: Yeah. Well, and then it also becomes fairly timely because we’re right now, we’re talking about the influence of corporations and our first major conflict between the crew comes between Ripley and he Ian Holmes, character Ash, because Ash wall is down there by the airlock entrance and wall.

Ripley’s, she’s not going to let them on Nash. Finally just hits the button and opens the airlock. And this sets up a tension between them the whole time. And again, watching it as an adult now. A little more sophisticated realizing that there’s a nice bit of, and between her and Ash throughout this movie, from there on when she’s clearly a bit suspicious, his motives, not just, uh, you know, you did something you weren’t supposed to do and his argument to her as well.

If I didn’t let them in what was going to happen, you’re just going to let them die in there. Like, we don’t know what this is. Like they could die. It’s not just that. But then, then he’s also really interested of course his role on the ship. He’s like the scientist position or whatever, but he’s clearly extremely fascinated with, um, examining the alien and taking it apart, you know, um, while they’re on the ship, not putting it in a jar and waiting until they get back almost dispassionately.

So. I’m more interested in fascinated by the alien than he really cares so much about the people and their safety. And it doesn’t come across overblown. You know, I mean, in a, in a low budget film with less talented actors, they would probably play this up a bit, but it’s just so realistic and subtle the way that Ian Holmes plays it, you know, from the beginning, he’s this guy who, who just seems a little.

Off, maybe from the rest of them quieter, he’s a little more business. Like. I think in some of their earlier conversations, when there’s just sort of talking about the company, he’s making excuses for that. Well, this is the company, this is the company, what the company says, you know, this is what we do.

This is why we do it. And yet at this one moment, he’s the one to break the rules, to let these people in. It’s an interesting twist. And it makes you highly suspicious of his character, even though he’s not running around leering with one eyebrow raised the whole time.

Craig: Hmm. Well, as I said, I’m still.

Collapsing accident, but I have confirmed that he’s got an announcer later. Protein polysaccharides has a funny habit of shutting yourselves and replacing them with polarized. Silicon gives him a prolonged resistance to adverse environmental conditions. Is that enough? That’s funny. What does it mean, please?

Don’t do it.

Todd: Thank you. Sorry.

Craig: Well, it’s an interesting combination of elements, making them a tough little sort of a bitch. And you let him in being a director. I can remember Ash when Dallas and Cain are off the ship. I’m senior officer. I forgot. But if you do know, as I hope listeners, you do that, ultimately he is villainous and doesn’t care about.

Preserving the crew, they are expendable to him. If you know that watching the film, there are subtleties of Ian home’s performance that suggests just it just slight, slight looks. Um, and yeah, it’s really impressive if, you know, because I don’t think that it would give you pause at all. On a first viewing, if you didn’t know, you would just think he was another one of the crew.

And I don’t know that there would be any reason to have any suspicions about him. That’s played up more in the novelization as well. There are some additional scenes when the face hugger is on cane, they x-ray him. And you see that a little bit in the movie and the novelization, someone notices a dark spot on one of.

Uh, Kane’s lungs. Um, and Ash, Ian Holmes character says, Oh, it must just be a flaw in, in the machine. Of course we find out later that he knows that it’s actually an ovum or, or something that’s been deposited inside. Uh, Kane’s chest. There’s also another scene in the novelization where once the big alien.

You know, emerges. Um, and they’re trying to get rid of it. They have a rare opportunity at one point where they almost get it into the airlock, but at the very last second, an alarm is sounded and it startled the alien and yeah. He runs away. And, uh, Ripley realizes later that it had been Ash that had set off the alarm because he didn’t want the alien to escape, but, uh, all that intrigue it’s subtle.

But ultimately when it’s revealed what’s going on, if you go back, there are those subtle hints.

Todd: Yeah. And this time around, I appreciated it even more maybe because I’d seen the movie before, but there was this lingering question. I’m not sure if it occurred to me before, but it certainly did watching it this time.

They do this X Ray. And like you said, in the novelization, it’s a little more clear, but in the movie they don’t say anything about, you know, always. He’s doing something down there he’s LANSA mag or whatever, like nothing is said, then you get this impression during this dinner scene afterwards. So the face hugger leaves the, the guy eventually that’s just sort of disappeared.

Uh, yeah. And, um, dies. They do a dissection on it, whatever,

Craig: which is really cool. I mean, we don’t have to go into it, but like it’s all very organic and again, highly reminiscent of sex organs, but it looks really cool. Anyway,

Todd: they used like what, like, like real stuff, like sheep’s

Craig: bladders and Oregon’s

Todd: and oysters and stuff to make that happen.

I mean, it’s, it doesn’t look like plastic and latex for sure. No. And again, they kind of do stupid breaking quarantined stuff where, uh, which, which again is so understandable now, maybe more understandable now than it used to be like, you know, the guys woken up and they kind of want them to be better. And they kind of want to think that the, that the dangerous past, and even though some things are said about, we still need to keep them isolated, they kind of just don’t.

Right. They all end up in the room with them and they’re laughing and joking with him. And so then they have dinner. And during this dinner scene, you know, they’re all sitting around laughing and John Hurt’s character. Uh, what’s his name again?

Craig: Kane

Todd: Kane starts to kind of start choking and stand up. And he’s obviously, and at first they’re all like, Oh, you okay there, buddy?

And here is Ian home’s character. The doctor physician on the, on the ship. More watching with interest then jumping up to do anything. And that is not something I remembered, noticing so much the first time around, but, and it’s clear. Okay. He knew he knew them. There was something inside him and he’s probably just been waiting for this to happen.

And that was so chilling. Right. Uh, but again, Blink and you’ll miss it

Craig: really well. And then, and of course, everybody I think is familiar with this chest bursting scene. I mean, it’s absolutely iconic. We throw that word around quite a bit, but this one really is, it’s been parodied many times. It’s been copied many times, but, uh, it was very unique.

And of course the lore is that none of the actors knew what was going to happen. Well, that’s not entirely true. Of course, obviously John hurt knew what was going to happen. Um, as it turned out, Tom Skerritt was very interested in the process of filmmaking. So he had been following Ridley, Scott around.

And so he had been present during the discussions of the effects and how it was going to happen. But Ridley Scott also asked him. Not to say anything to anybody else. Um, Sigourney Weaver has said that they knew something was going to happen. They knew something was going to come out of his chest, but that’s pretty much all they knew.

And, um, she said that she started to get a little bit nervous when they arrived on set and the entire crew was wearing raincoats. But ultimately they didn’t really know what was going to happen. And th the, the scene, the chest bursts scene was shot in one take with four or five different cameras positioned at different angles.

Um, and they didn’t know that blood was going to erupt from Keynes, chest and Veronica Cartwright famously is. It’s splattered. Her face is splattered in blood and her reaction was her genuine reaction to that. And apparently, um, she was. Pretty distraught over it, uh, in the yeah. Aftermath. And yet that Kado who played Parker was, you know, according to the stories told by the case past upset by it too, and went home and kind of locked himself in a room and wouldn’t come out for half a day.

And it is, it’s such a great effect, but this, this, this little chest burster alien pops out and looks around and kind of snarls. And then it jumps out onto the table and runs away. But before it jumps out onto the table and runs away, somebody goes, I think it’s Parker goes, grab it. And Ash says, no, don’t touch it.

And then it runs away. Now there’s a logical reason why they would. Why he would say don’t touch it because when they had tried to remove the face hugger and they cut into it, it had bled acid, um, that had almost breached the hall, all of the ship. So logically they, you know, they don’t know anything about this alien.

It might be risky to touch it. But ultimately he doesn’t want it harmed his purpose as we find out is to preserve this creature and return it to earth for research, even if that’s at the expense of the current and just those, uh, subtleties, these I think are, are excellent. It’s excellent storytelling.

It’s excellent. Acting on Ian Holmes, heart. Um, it’s great direction. Uh, and it just worked so well. And then, then, you know, following that scene, They go out looking for what they expect to be a small thing that has just emerged from their friends chest, but apparently, um, it matures at an alarming rate and that’s when we’re then dealing with the big Zena morph.

And I’m sure that all of you listening have seen it, you know, the Xenomorph, uh, changes appearance somewhat over the course of the series. Uh, Ridley Scott originally wanted it to be an animatronic. Uh, in this movie, but the technology wasn’t good enough. So they did have to go with a guy in a suit, which Scott had initially not wanted to do, but they hired this, uh, ver like seven foot tall guy , um, tall lanky guy to wear this suit.

And they were just careful about lighting and shooting so that it didn’t look silly. And there are times to be fair. Where you can tell, especially when it reaches out with its arms, they’re very human, like, and so it’s easy to, it’s easy to understand that it’s a guy in a suit, but it looks fantastic. Of course, as the series went on.

They played with the design and they had more that they could do with technology. And because this is a being that, that just States inside other living things they started to play with. Well, if it just States inside something that’s not human, will it take on characteristics of. Whatever it is that it did just date it.

And they experimented with that and stuff, which I think is very cool. But here the original, um, he’s, um, bipedal, he walks on two feet or can at least, um, but it’s the alien it’s it’s like you said, it’s, it’s virtually camouflaged in the environment. It’s incredibly stealthy. Um, that stealth is on display even more in the novelization.

Um, it can virtually be. Right. The side behind, underneath, or above someone at any given time, without that person, knowing that it’s there and you get that in the film too. And it just, it all comes together. The other, the way it was shot, the way it was lit believable, you believe that they could be in the presence of this thing and not be aware because you as the viewer, Are not aware, like it’s right there, but it’s only when it moves in a particular way that you think, Oh my gosh, it’s been there that whole,

Todd: yeah.

And this ship really needs more lights. Right.

Craig: When they were looking around for the face hugger, um, Dallas is looking around with like a pin light, like a, like a pin flashlight and like, dude, turn the lights on.

Todd: It’s true. And Ridley Scott, um, you know, he does such a good job of setting up the ship, the whole.

Opening scene of the movie is just slowly coming in onto the ship and slowly taking us into the ship and slowly taking us through the quarters of the ship, uh, into the control room where the computer wakes up the ship, you know, after it slumber and then slowly pans us into, as lights are coming on into their room where they’ve been in this cryogenic sleep.

And as things open up, it’s very 2001 in a way that it takes its time. But also that it really sets the environment of the ship as this dark chamber. Not cameras, like I said before, like tunnel.

Craig: Yeah. Or like a, like a boiler room. Yeah. Carrier of a, I don’t know. I don’t want to say fact, but I mean, it kind of looks like a ship, like a Naval ship or, or like interiors submarine, right?

Yeah. It as submarine. Exactly. Which makes perfect logical sense

Todd: and air shooting out of things randomly.

Craig: Yeah. It wouldn’t be pristine, you know, it wouldn’t be. The hallways of the death star, you know, like they’re, they’re basically a space tow truck. It’s not luxury. And I love it. It’s perfect for the story,

Todd: the scenes to where the two guys, you know, Parker and, um,

Craig: Parker and Brett, Brett, Harry Dean Stanton, his character,

Todd: you’re like the mechanical guys.

Right. You know, and they bitch about how, you know, nothing on the ship would get fixed. If, if it wasn’t for us, like, you know, we’re the ones keeping this place running and we should get more money and blah, blah, blah. And I love these scenes where they’re going off like this. You kind of imagine they’re gonna start talking about the union.

You know, they’re literally like fixing the ship, like you’d fix a car, you know, it’s just these very. Well, very mechanical type things on the ship. And even for the time that this was shot, there’s deliberately low-fi stuff. Yeah. You know, the computer screens and things in there are deliberately low-fi, it’s just a unique feel to it yet.

Also, there are times when, again, you’re going down these corridors it’s, it’s like a mirror image of. The bigger ship that they found the alien on. Again, these tunnels that seemed through the pipe work in their kind of organic, kind of a little alien, you know, which provides, like we said, the alien room to hide, but then, you know, like the name of the computer on the ship, his mother.

And when they go in to talk to the mother computer, it’s distinctly different. It looks like a little womb. They go into this little room and it’s, it almost looks like there’s maybe some cloth or some fabric, you know, stretched over the walls. It’s a little padded, their lights on in there. It’s very bright.

It looks extremely comfortable, like a comfortable padded room compared to the rest of the shift. You he’s he’s little touches are so. Interesting to dissect

Craig: well, and there’s a series of such great tense scenes that happen in over a short period of time, but where the characters start to get picked off and RET is the first two picked off by the big alien.

Um, And you never really see a lot. There’s a lot of suggestion of violence, but you, and a lot of really close up stuff, but it happens so quickly. You almost can’t see what happens, Ripley and, uh, Parker, I believe, uh, see him get pulled up into the ventilation system. So they know they’re dealing with something large and powerful and the only way that.

Because it’s working in the air vents. Um, they decide to try to trap it in there. There’s a great claustrophobic scene of, um, Dallas. In the air vents, um, and, and Lambert, Veronica Cartwright’s character is tracking the aliens movement and it’s moving closer and closer to Dallas until it’s really on top of him.

And, um, Veronica Cartwright’s performance. She’s so scared and she’s screaming at him to move and to get out and at the very last second. When he does start to move, she says, no, no, not that way. The other way, the other way. Then of course, the alien jumps out, uh, at, at Dallas and that us, the audience, and it’s a great scare.

Uh, eventually once Dallas is dead, they. Initially are going to try to continue his plan, even though Veronica Cartwright’s character wants them to try to just escape on the shuttle, but they can’t because it only holds it doesn’t hold four people and there’s four of them left. Um, and that’s when Ripley finally, because now that the first and second officers are both dead.

Or presumed dead. Ripley is now in charge and that when she goes to talk to mother and she overrides, um, a command and finds out what the true objective is, which is to return this, uh, alien for research, the crew is expendable. Um, and that’s when Ash reveals himself and there’s a big bite where he just picks her up and throws her all over the place.

Um, and it takes, uh, Parker and Lambert coming in and assisting her to get them off. And they struggle with that. And eventually Parker picks up something big and heavy and Knox ashes head completely off, which is when we fully realize, even though it’s been suggested. Briefly before that he is in fact an Android, um, and not, yeah, human, which I suppose makes sense that he really has no empathy that he’s just in it to do his job.

And in the interest of science. But it’s cool. I mean, it looks great. The effects, of course, aren’t seamless. Um, after his head comes off and is kind of dangling by his body, they get him down on the ground and they’re good. We’re gonna re animate his head to see if he can give them any additional information.

And, and it’s not seamless. You can clearly tell, um, when. Sigourney Weaver is working with a prop head and then there’s a quick cut. And all of a sudden, clearly Ian Holden’s head is up, you know, under a table in this prosthetic. Um, and yeah, it shows, but for the time it still looks fantastic.

Todd: Yeah. And as a kid, this shocked me too, because.

Once again, this Android, I was so used to these movies of the sixties, you know, in the fifties where robots and Androids, if they break they’re sparking and they’re wires and things jutting out from them. But again, like so much of the rest of this movie, this Android is very organic inside. Like the whole inside.

It feels like his blood is very Milky. You know, he has this sort of Milky. Fluid like, like a, like a white Milky oil, that’s keeping them going. And it’s just very unclear, comfortable, little bits and pieces of bubbles and, and tubes. And that gets, they use pasta and fiber optics and little bladders and marbles and things just to create this very unique, original idea of like the inside of an Android and how it would work to make it not so much not so electronic.

But organic. Uh, and that really works. I mean, it’s hard to unpack exactly how it would literally work, but yeah, it works as a visual for the movie. It makes us seem very disturbing and unsettling. As in homeless sitting there talking to them, this severed head spitting out. This mill, you know, Milky white stuff out of his mouth.

Uh, I remember being so grossed out by this as a

Craig: kid

Todd: and, and I’ve got to go back. I’ve got to go back real quick to that fight scene between him and Ripley and get a little personal here, because I’m just gonna to tell the world, you know, my dad, uh, my, my parents are fantastic people and I feel like they just really raised me.

Right. And one thing that my dad did with me is I got a very. Real and honest and in-depth birds and bees discussion when was necessary. And interestingly enough, there was a point at which he was talking to me about, you know, now that you’re older and you’re, you know, you’re kind of seeing things differently and you’re having these different feelings.

You’re probably gonna notice things that are, over-sexualized like things in the movies and, and symbolic things and whatnot. That is there to sort of, you know, turn you on or hit you in these spots. And he used this scene from alien. This was his example to me. This scene where Ian Holmes character is fighting with Ripley and he has her pinned down on this bed.

And this bed is like, basically, I think it’s Parker’s bunk bed. And Parker has been like every now and then reading like porno magazines, or at least they’re implied they’re porno magazines. And in the fuzzy fuzzy in the background on the wall, you can see these pinups there, you know, of clearly nude centerfolds that are there.

And in the context of this. The way that he decides to try to dispatch Ripley is he rolls up one of these magazines and tries to force it down her

Craig: throat

Todd: again, it’s like, it’s like another rape, right? It’s it’s, it’s highly sexually suggestive that he’s shoving the cylinder down her throat. It’s so. Odd.

He’s not slapping around. He’s not beating her up. He could, he could be choking her. I got to give my dad a lot of credit for coming out of the woodwork with this example, from this movie that made total sense to me at the time, because we were both big fans of the film and that was the first time I was ever.

Aware to look for really like any kind of symbolism or subtleties in movies, you know, like what’s behind what they’re actually doing here and what’s there and this, this scene, again, it doesn’t draw extreme attention to itself, but it adds, it’s more of that, that we have in the whole movie of the penetration of the, the aliens little kind of like phallic, phallic, inner mouth that comes out and, you know, gets people.

It’s really interesting choice. And I guess they didn’t even tell. Her exactly Ridley Scott told her he’s going to try to push it in your Hooter. And she was confused because I, yeah, no, she’s like in America, like Hooters or like boobs, like what he’s going to try to shove it in my chest or, you know, whatever.

And so she was a little surprised when he started to try to put it in her mouth. So that performances is quite. Unsettling.

Craig: It is. It certainly is. They don’t really get any new information. Um, from Ash when they re animate him still don’t understand what you’re dealing with here. Perfect organism. It’s structural perfectionism, matched anybody’s house to that team.

My POS team, several of them.

Clouded consciousness and most morality. But the three remaining crew decide that they’re going to board the shuttle and take their chances in space and leave the alien behind, um, and the ship self-destruct the ship. So, uh, Ripley goes to prepare the shuttle while the other two go off to collect coolant.

Um, and they, uh, Lambert and Parker are then dispatched. And, and again, there’s some sexuality to the way or some, at least suggestive sexuality. Uh, the way that Veronica Cartwright’s character is taken out, which we actually don’t see. But what we do see is some appendage of the alien, um, making its way kind of sensuously up.

Uh, the inner part of her leg. And then we don’t really know what happens to her after that, but ultimately, ultimately it’s Ripley alone and there’s a lot of business with her, you know, starting the self-destruct. And then she goes back to the shuttle. There’s a cat on board and she had gotten the cat into a carrier and apparently the alien had been drawn by the cat, which was on the shuttle.

So now the alien is on the shuttle. So Ripley goes back and tries to stop the detonation, but she’s too late. And she runs back to the shuttle. The alien appears to be gone. And, and so she, uh, you know, launched the shuttle and it takes off and the big part of the ship that they were hauling explodes. And that’s when she thinks she’s safe again.

Um, and as I said before, she disrobed in these very, you know, small revealing undergarments, um, and. What I thought was interesting is I wasn’t really sure of what was going on here because she is kind of messing with some controls or something and not realizing that she is just inches from the creature.

And at one point it reaches its hand out and she retreats, but it doesn’t come out now. I’m still not certain of this, but is it supposed to be. Suggested that it’s hiding because it’s scared. Because of the explosions or because it’s just kind of odd to me. It’s been so aggressive throughout the rest of the movie and it really appears to be trying to hide itself in this moment.

Todd: Yeah, I think you’re right. I mean, I think there are a couple of ways you could look at it if you want to grant the alien a good degree of intelligence. And I think we can, maybe it kind of understands all along. What’s going on here and it’s trying to hide in the shuttle as well. So it knows it needs Ripley.

To take off into space and escape the, the ship that’s going to explode, or like you said, you was, it was drawn to the shuttle because it was a hiding from all of the noise and everything that’s going on during the self destruct. I mean, the ship is a as a mess while the self-destruct procedures going on, like it’s just blasting air everywhere.

And there can also be, like you said earlier, a little bit of this, uh, You know, he’s kind of leering at her a bit and not so willing to just go in and take her out. Like he did the rest of the crew, you know, presumably maybe this is what we didn’t see him do to, uh, you know, Lambert’s character, you know, with the appendage or I think it’s also been suggested maybe he was a little injured or just tired.

Yeah. Yeah. So it could be any one of those things. In any case, re Ripley is able to slowly and very tensely slip into one of these space suits.

Craig: I love it. I don’t know why I love that scene so much. Like she just finds herself backed into a closet and she kind of happens to turn to her side and realizes that there’s a space suit and she, so covertly just slips herself into it.

And I remember even as a. Kid thinking how smart she was then to move. So slowly cautiously. So as not to draw attention to herself or to startle the alien, um, I just thought. Very very clever. And then the ending is really interesting. The, the ending that we get is very interesting, but it’s also interesting in the context of what it was initially conceived as initially the ending was conceived that Ripley would escape on the shuttle and the alien would be killed in the explosion on.

The bigger part of the ship and she would just get away. I don’t remember who it was that didn’t like that, but I think, I think the next suggestion from Ridley, Scott. And I’m getting the mix mixed up. I think that the writer, Dan O’Bannon and Ridley Scott had conflicting views. One of them wanted the alien to get on the shuttle with her and they would have a big battle which would come home and ate in the alien.

Decapitating her and she would be dead. And then the alien would get on, on the airwaves or the recording or whatever. And it was going to be mimic Dallas’s voice as though it were pretending to be him to re you know, go back to earth or whatever. Um, that was rejected, I think, by the studio because they thought that it was too bleak.

And so they ended up going with the ending that. We see, which I think is exciting and satisfying for the audience because, um, basically it’s not terribly complicated. Um, Ripley gets herself into a space suit and then she opens the, the airlock. And I feel like the, the alien charges her, but what does she.

Kick it out or something like that.

Todd: Plus the air lock being open kind of sucks it out towards the, the opening as well. And she’s able to, I think she hooks onto something to, to keep herself from, from going that far out.

Craig: I had forgotten that at first, the alien just clings to the outside of the ship and that she sees that and it crawls into the thrusters.

And then she turns the thrusters on which propels the alien out into, um, Space and she is safe and she records her final log, uh, which in itself is also, uh, iconic. And that’s how it ends. And of course, you know, that was perfect because then it allowed for SQL, which came and was amazing and did incredibly well.

Um, and I loved it and, and the franchise continued. It continued in video games. It continued in films. It continued in crossover films with. Predator, uh, um, comic books, all kinds of things. And I certainly believe that it is alive and well. The third movie was really controversial. A lot of people hated it and I understand why, because it, it kind of, um, ruined the happy ending of the second movie.

Ultimately, I enjoyed the third movie. I thought it was very stylistic and interesting, and I liked it.

Todd: So did I? I liked it. I like the fourth movie too

Craig: liked the fourth one to the fourth one is very different and they take it in a different direction. Um, but I enjoyed it also. Um, I was really excited. Uh, I think his name is Neil blond camp.

Uh, the guy, yeah. He wrote a treatment that would kind of retcon the series and it would be more of a direct sequel to, um, aliens, um, and would bring back the characters of Newt and the other. Guy who was revealed to be dead at the beginning of alien three. And so Bernie Weaver was on board for that and I was really excited about it.

But then Ridley, Scott went ahead with Prometheus’s and so that was scrapped and I have really mixed feelings about really Scott’s promethium trilogy. I’ve seen them both. I remember very little about either. I just didn’t particularly care for them. Apparently. There is a script for alien five, which would see the return of Sigourney Weaver.

I guess Ridley Scott is on board for it, but in interviews, Sigourney Weaver has been very skeptical and said maybe it’s time to let Ellen Ripley rest. Um, she is in her seat seventies. Now I believe early seventies, I think. Um, maybe late sixties. I don’t remember, but she’s getting up there. She’s a vibrant woman.

She still works all the time and she’s fantastic. Um, but I’m sure that it would be a challenge for her with the physical demands. I’m I’m confident that she could do it, but whether or not she chooses to, I don’t know. I don’t know. As a fan, I’d love to see her return one more time and maybe get some closure to her story.

But, uh, if she doesn’t, I understand and respect that decision and I hope that we get, um, some good. Alien Xenomorph movies moving forward because the alien vs predator movies are kind of fun, popcorn movies, but they’re not great quality in terms of scripts and whatnot. Um, it’d be good to see another really good alien movie, but who knows?

I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

Todd: Yeah, well let’s hope, right. I mean, this movie has just spawned, like you said, a franchise that is. Live and well, I mean, I can’t, I can’t name a number, the number of video games. Yeah. They have directly really stolen. I mean, this whole idea of the alien going through the vents, you know, I mean, how many times have we seen that in horror movies now, scifi movies.

It’s a trope, you know, now it really started with this movie and then so many connections to so many movies we’ve done and we will do. We already talked about all the people we’d be remiss if we didn’t point out that the person who designed the head of the alien and put all those special effects together was one of our favorite Italian special effects.

Artists, Carlo rom Baldy did a possession a little while ago. So, uh, where he did the tentacled. A rape creature in that one. Uh, and then of course he was doing E T and close encounters of the third kind and had a bit, quite a relationship with Spielberg around this time. But again, highly responsible for the effects in this movie.

And I read that alien head. They put so much time and energy and it had about 900 points of articulation.

Craig: Wow.

Todd: And it’s almost hard for me to believe because it doesn’t seem like it. I mean, there’s nothing that looks fake about this. I just don’t see the head that much, you know, but I was actually actually surprised this time around watching this movie.

How little blood there really isn’t it. Yeah. I remembered it being gorier and bloodier, particularly that chest burster scene. It’s really not that bloody at all.

Craig: Not really,

Todd: even though we see like the aftermath, so the blood splash on the middle, everything happens so fast that it did not match my memory, which I think just goes to show how much the implication of things.

And just showing you a little bit can help your mind to fill in the blanks with something that’s much worse. But apparently they, the whole movie was a bit bloodier all around and Ridley Scott did have to trim back a number of the Gore scenes and blood in order to avoid getting an X rating at the time.

So, um, it would be interested to see the, the director’s cut to, you know, the full blood version or something. I’d be curious to see what those effects were like, but it definitely doesn’t mean that

Craig: the last thing that I think is worthy of mentioning, um, is the score. I, I know there was some. Conflict about the score, but what we ended up with and I, I particularly noticed it in the somewhat long opening credit sequence.

Um, the score is, is beautiful.

Todd: Oh, and the sound design

Craig: and the sound design,

Todd: Jerry Jerry Goldsmith. The score. Yep.

Craig: It’s great. And it makes me nostalgic for the day when, so much thought and effort. And I’m not saying that that’s not the case in some films today, but it just seems like, like score was something that was given more attention back in.

Those days. Uh, and I appreciate it as I always do when there’s a strong score, because it just does so much to add to the atmosphere. And I, I really enjoyed it here as well.

Todd: Yeah. And, uh, and once again, Ian Holmes performance really great. Excellent. Clearly, right, right. Comfortable in the middle of his game here, he has 137 credits to his name, uh, before he passed away on June 19th of this year at age 88,

Craig: you know, he’s highly decorated.

He’s one. Tons of prestigious awards, film awards, Tony awards. Um, he’s a member of the Royal Shakespeare company, just universally respected and considered one of the great actors of his time here. Kind of a chameleon, just, just an excellent, excellent performer and bias, all accounts, everything that I read, I only read glowing things about him as a performer and as a man.

And I guess we should. You know, we have him to thank for making us finally get around to this movie, which we probably should’ve done a long time ago.

Todd: Yeah. Thank you, mr. Home, rest in peace. Well, thanks again for listening to another episode. If you enjoy, please share it with a friend. You can search us on Google, two guys in a chainsaw, and you’ll find our Facebook page and our page and our Twitter feed.

Reach out to us on any one of those channels to let us know what you thought of this episode and give us some request for some movie you’d like us to do in the future. Also, please be sure to visit our YouTube channel and subscribe there. So ask your requests and subscribe to us so we can build our numbers there and find a wider audience on that medium until next time.

I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.