2 Pastors and a Mic

In this episode of Two Pastors and a Mic, we sit down with Bishop Shawn from Cameroon, Africa for one of the most powerful and eye-opening conversations we’ve had on the podcast.

We talk about:
• Deconstructing fear-based theology
• How colonialism distorted the image of God in Africa
• Inclusion, identity, and the finished work of Christ
• Recognizing royalty in every person
• What it means to truly “see Jesus in others”
• Entrepreneurship, ministry, and funding Kingdom work without manipulation
• Writing the Gospel in a language the world can understand

Bishop Shawn shares incredible wisdom about union with God, healing cultural wounds, and the Gospel as a message of restoration for individuals, families, and entire nations.

00:00 - Welcome & Introducing Bishop Shawn
01:16 - First Guest from Africa
02:44 - Bishop Shawn’s Journey Into Ministry
04:49 - Seeing Jesus Beyond Religion
06:02 - Deconstruction & Colonial Christianity in Africa
08:01 - Teaching Christ Through Culture
09:27 - Christianity & African Identity
11:20 - Recognizing Royalty in People
12:40 - The Guatemala Orphanage Story
13:58 - Identity, Royalty & the Family of God
15:31 - Affirmation Before Performance
16:12 - Ministry & Entrepreneurship
18:18 - Writing Books & Teaching the Gospel
20:00 - “I Think Myself Happy” Explained
21:50 - Why Historical Context Matters
22:27 - Where to Find Bishop Shawn’s Content
23:10 - “I See Jesus In You” Culture
24:06 - Freedom From Intimidation
25:24 - Seeing Jesus in Everyone
26:02 - Final Thoughts & Closing Blessing

In this episode of Two Pastors and a Mic, we unpack 4 signs that you’re actually moving in the right direction spiritually, emotionally, and mentally.

After weeks of conversations around “Godly Thought or Trauma Response,” we wanted to answer one of the biggest questions we’ve been getting:
“How do I know I’m healing?”
“How do I know I’m growing?”
“How do I know I’m actually becoming free?”

This conversation is deeply personal as we continue navigating grief, leadership, deconstruction, healing, and learning how to live from love instead of fear.

In this episode, we discuss:
• Why fear is no longer our motivation
• Spiritual disciplines through love instead of pressure
• Vulnerability vs transparency
• Healing through safe connection
• How to hold tension without panic
• Deconstruction, curiosity, and learning to rethink theology
• Letting go of the need for approval
• Finding identity rooted in love instead of performance

We also share some updates about upcoming podcast episodes, interviews with Bill Vanderbush and Dr. Shawn Smith, and what’s ahead this summer for the podcast.

00:00 - Intro & Processing Grief
02:15 - Four Signs You’re Moving in the Right Direction
03:34 - Sign #1: Less Motivated by Fear
04:22 - Spiritual Disciplines Without Fear
05:01 - Fear, Hell, and Financial Freedom
06:26 - Generosity Flowing From Love
07:21 - Love Removes Fear
09:00 - Fear May Whisper, But It Doesn’t Lead
09:47 - Sign #2: Honest About Your Humanity
10:16 - Transparency vs Vulnerability
10:49 - Healing Happens When You’re Heard
11:16 - “I’m Okay, But I’m Not Okay”
12:00 - Why “How Are You?” Matters Differently in Ukrainian Culture
13:53 - Sign #3: Holding Tension Without Panic
14:16 - Deconstruction, Uncertainty & Emotional Processing
15:28 - Letting People Process at Their Own Pace
16:14 - Curiosity, Teachability & Seeing God Better
17:02 - Ted Lasso, Curiosity & Less Judgment
17:24 - Sign #4: Rooted in Love, Not Approval
17:39 - Letting Go of Needing Everyone’s Approval
18:21 - Identity as Sons & Daughters of God
19:02 - Recap: Four Signs You’re Healing & Growing
19:19 - Upcoming Podcast Guests & Summer Series
21:26 - Final Encouragement & Closing Thoughts

This episode is different. After five years of never missing a week, we suddenly disappeared for two weeks…

Two weeks ago, we lost one of our best friends — Chris Crawford — unexpectedly at just 46 years old. In this episode, we sit down not with polished answers or a sermon outline, but simply as two grieving friends trying to process heartbreak in real time.

We talk honestly about:
What grief actually feels like
How loss comes in waves
The emotional weight of showing up when you don’t want to
Why presence matters more than words
The tension of holding hope and heartbreak at the same time
Some of the unhelpful things people say to grieving people (even with good intentions)
Why we felt it was important not to just “move on” too quickly

This is a conversation about friendship, loss, pain, love, and learning how to sit with grief instead of trying to fix it.

If you’re grieving right now…
If someone you love is grieving…
Or if you simply need permission to not be okay for a while…
we hope this episode reminds you that you’re not alone.

More than anything, this conversation reminded us: Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is simply show up.

00:00 - We’re Back After Tragedy
00:36 - Missing Our First Podcast Weeks in 5 Years
01:07 - Losing One of Our Best Friends
03:03 - How Grief Comes in Waves
04:36 - The Closest Loss We’ve Ever Experienced
05:19 - The Shock of Losing Chris at 46
07:11 - Writing Through Grief & Journaling
08:26 - Why Christians Struggle With Grief
08:58 - Preaching While Grieving
10:24 - Holding Hope and Heartbreak Together
11:54 - Grieving Without Easy Answers
13:14 - The Tension of Comforting People
15:13 - Presence Matters More Than Words
15:45 - A Message That Encouraged Us
18:33 - Grief, Vulnerability & Being Real
20:15 - Show Up for Someone This Week
20:50 - Never Underestimate Presence
21:43 - What’s Next for the Podcast
22:08 - Final Thoughts & Encouragement

What if what you’ve been calling “meekness”... isn’t actually meekness at all?

In this episode of Two Pastors and a Mic, we unpack the difference between true biblical meekness and something many of us have unknowingly lived in—self-abandonment.

For years, we’ve been taught that being quiet, agreeable, and selfless is spiritual. But what if constantly apologizing, shrinking your voice, and avoiding conflict isn’t humility… it’s a trauma response?

We get honest about:
Why so many people struggle to speak up or set boundaries
The subtle ways self-abandonment shows up (you probably do these without realizing it)
The fear underneath it all—rejection, conflict, and being “too much”
Why “no” is a complete sentence (and why that’s so hard for us)
What meekness actually looks like through the life of Jesus

This one gets personal. We share our own struggles with over-apologizing, people-pleasing, and learning to stop shrinking ourselves in relationships.

If you’ve ever felt like:
“I don’t want to bother anyone…”
“Sorry, this might be a dumb question…”
“I’ll just stay quiet to keep the peace…”
…this episode is for you.

Because the truth is: Meekness isn’t weakness. It’s strength under control. And you were never meant to disappear to be accepted.

00:00 - Welcome Back and Podcast Consistency
01:58 - Learning to Celebrate Yourself
02:50 - This Week’s Topic: Meekness vs. Self-Abandonment
03:43 - What Self-Abandonment Looks Like
05:11 - Channock on Feeling Meek but Being Seen as Bold
06:47 - Over-Apologizing and Shrinking Yourself
08:01 - “I Know You’re Busy” and Other Subtle Self-Abandonment Patterns
09:19 - Why “No” Should Be a Complete Sentence
10:05 - Boundaries, Family Pressure, and Over-Explaining
11:06 - Why We Struggle to Say No
12:31 - The Fear Beneath Self-Abandonment
14:23 - What Meekness Actually Is
15:12 - Strength Under Control in the Life of Jesus
16:20 - Why Self-Abandonment Feels So Hard
17:57 - A Simple Shift: Stop Starting with “Sorry”
18:43 - Meekness Does Not Mean Disappearing
19:15 - Final Encouragement to Stop Shrinking Yourself
20:34 - Reflecting on Self-Abandonment in Real Life
21:16 - You’re Loved and There’s Nothing You Can Do About It

In this episode of Two Pastors and a Mic, we talk about something that gets praised all the time in church culture—but often hides a much deeper issue: productivity without rest.

A lot of us were taught that being busy means being faithful.
That doing more means you care more.
That slowing down feels lazy.
That resting means you are falling behind.

But what if that constant need to produce is not obedience at all? What if it is actually a trauma response?

This week, Cory and Channock unpack the difference between healthy discipline and unhealthy productivity, and why so many of us have tied our worth to our output. They talk honestly about the pressure to always be doing more, the fear of being seen as lazy, the struggle to stop striving, and how rest can feel uncomfortable when your identity has been built around performance.

They also share personal stories about ministry, family, work ethic, and the inner voices that make rest feel irresponsible—even when rest is exactly what is needed.

In this episode:
Why productivity is often praised as spirituality
How performance can become tied to identity
The fear of being perceived as lazy
Why rest can feel uncomfortable and even unsafe
How childhood and church culture shape our work habits
The difference between inactivity and true rest
What Jesus modeled instead of constant striving
Simple practical ways to begin choosing rest without guilt

This episode is for the person who feels guilty slowing down…
For the one who always feels like they should be doing more…
For the one who has confused exhaustion with faithfulness.

Sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is stop striving.

00:00 - Welcome Back 
02:17 - Why Short-Form Theology Feels Frustrating
02:50 - Godly Thought or Trauma Response Series Recap
03:41 - Processing Last Week’s Hypervigilance Episode
05:45 - This Week’s Topic: Productivity vs. Rest
06:30 - When Busyness Gets Praised as Spirituality
07:45 - Can the Performance Bug Ever Go Away?
08:59 - What If Productivity Is a Trauma Response?
09:20 - Channock on the Fear of Being Seen as Lazy
11:27 - The Garage Door Story and Hidden Pressure
14:01 - Cory on Childhood Roots of Overworking
16:30 - When Productivity Becomes Identity
19:06 - What Rest Actually Looks Like
19:51 - Three Things Jesus Never Did
20:28 - Finding Life Outside of Productivity
21:30 - Ministry, Relife, and Protecting Family
23:50 - Rest Is Peace in the Middle of Activity
24:11 - Simple Practices to Start Resting
25:52 - Phone Boundaries and Learning Presence
26:40 - You Are Valuable Without Proving It
27:04 - Final Encouragement and Closing

In this episode of Two Pastors and a Mic, we take on a topic that hits closer than most—and often gets misunderstood in church culture: hypervigilance.

A lot of us have been taught to call it discernment.
“I just feel like something’s off…”
“The Holy Spirit is showing me something…”

And sometimes that’s true. But other times? It’s not discernment—it’s your nervous system trying to stay safe based on past experiences.

In this conversation, Cory and Channock unpack how hypervigilance develops, why it feels so spiritual, and how it can quietly sabotage your relationships, your peace, and your ability to actually be present. They also get honest about their own experiences—from leadership dynamics to marriage and insecurity—and how easy it is to mistake fear for wisdom.

The goal isn’t to shame this behavior—it’s to bring awareness so you can begin to move from fear → peace, and from reaction → presence.

In this episode:
Why hypervigilance often gets mislabeled as discernment
What hypervigilance actually looks like (overanalyzing, expecting conflict, reading into everything)
The root causes: trauma, broken trust, and unsafe environments
How this pattern keeps you stuck in a cycle of fear (and even victim thinking)
A personal story of how past relationships can affect present ones
The difference between discernment (peace) and hypervigilance (fear)
A simple but powerful question: Is there actual evidence something is wrong?
A grounding practice: “I’m safe right now”

00:00 - Welcome + Podcast Intro
03:33 - Series Recap: Godly Thought or Trauma Response
04:11 - Today’s Topic: Hypervigilance vs Discernment
05:10 - What Hypervigilance Really Is
05:37 - Personal Example: Church Leadership + Caution
06:42 - Hypervigilance vs Healthy Boundaries
08:34 - What Hypervigilance Looks Like Practically
09:20 - “Something Feels Off” Mentality
10:04 - The Cycle: Staying in Victim Mode
11:02 - Root Causes: Trauma, Broken Trust, Unsafe Environments
12:03 - Why It Doesn’t Just Turn Off
12:44 - When Hypervigilance Becomes Your Identity
14:17 - Calling It What It Is (Not Discernment)
15:18 - Leadership Struggles + Calling Out Insecurity
16:29 - What True Discernment Looks Like
17:37 - Peace vs Fear (Key Difference)
18:30 - The Cost of Living Hypervigilant
19:07 - The Key Question: Evidence or Assumption?
19:22 - Practical Step: “I’m Safe Right Now”
20:03 - Hypervigilance vs Presence
20:14 - Final Encouragement + Why This Matters
21:30 - Closing: You’re Loved

In this episode of Two Pastors and a Mic, we tackle something that rarely gets questioned—but is often praised in church culture: self-reliance.

You know the person… the one who handles everything, never asks for help, always shows up, carries the weight, and pushes through no matter what. We call them strong. Faithful. Dependable. But what if constantly carrying everything alone isn’t actually strength?

What if it’s a trauma response?

In this conversation, Cory and Channock unpack the deeper roots of self-reliance—how it can be driven by fear of being a burden, fear of being let down, or a deep desire to feel needed, valued, and accepted. They also get honest about their own struggles with this, from “Superman syndrome” to workaholism to the tension of expecting others to match what you give.

But the heart of this episode is the shift from self-reliance to shared life—the kind of life Jesus modeled and the early church embodied through “one anothering” each other well.

If you’ve ever said “I’ve got it,” when you really didn’t… this episode is for you.

In this episode:
Why self-reliance often gets praised as spiritual maturity
The hidden roots: fear, rejection, loneliness, and control
The emotional cost of carrying everything alone
How self-reliance can actually block connection
What Jesus modeled instead: shared life and mutual support
A powerful question to ask: Am I meant to carry this alone?
Practical steps to start letting people in

00:00 - Welcome + Podcast Intro
00:40 - Series Overview: Godly Thought or Trauma Response
01:35 - Today’s Topic: Self-Reliance
02:17 - Why Self-Reliance Gets Praised
02:52 - Roots of Self-Reliance (People-Pleasing, Rejection, Loneliness)
04:04 - Personal Struggle: Superman Imposter Syndrome
05:16 - The “Should” Trap + Emotional Tension
06:19 - When Others Don’t Meet Your Expectations
07:11 - Hard Question: Not Asking for Help
07:57 - Impatience + Doing It Alone
08:50 - Workaholic Tendencies + Selective Help
09:33 - “I’ve Got It” Mentality Explained
10:02 - Fear of Being a Burden or Let Down
10:40 - The Cost: Self-Reliance Blocks Connection
11:09 - Leadership Struggles + Fragilizing Others
12:05 - Growth Through Asking for Help (RElife Story)
14:12 - Why Asking for Help Is So Hard
15:01 - The Lie: Easier Doesn’t Mean Healthier
15:38 - The Shift: From Self-Reliance to Shared Life
16:25 - One Anothering: The Early Church Model
17:52 - You Were Never Meant to Do Life Alone
18:47 - Practical Step: Ask a Better Question
21:31 - Be Specific + Be Okay Hearing “No”
22:03 - Real Strength = Connection, Not Isolation
22:39 - Closing Encouragement

In this episode of Two Pastors and a Mic, we talk about the difference between peacekeeping and peacemaking—and why those two things are not the same.

A lot of us were taught that being “nice,” avoiding conflict, staying quiet, and keeping everyone comfortable was the godly way. But what if that’s not actually peace? What if it’s a trauma response dressed up as spirituality?

We unpack how peacekeeping is often rooted in fear—fear of rejection, fear of conflict, fear of being misunderstood, fear of losing connection—and how it can slowly cause you to abandon your own voice, needs, and boundaries. Then we contrast that with the way of Jesus, who didn’t avoid tension, but entered it with truth, love, and a desire for restoration.

If you’ve ever found yourself shrinking, avoiding hard conversations, or carrying the emotional burden of keeping everyone else okay, this conversation is for you.

In this episode, we cover:
The difference between peacekeeping and peacemaking
Why peacekeeping often looks spiritual
How fear drives conflict avoidance
What Jesus modeled instead
How to confront without escalating
4 practical steps toward real peacemaking

00:00 - Welcome + YouTube Growth & Appreciation
01:03 - Why This Podcast Matters Right Now
01:43 - Series Intro: Godly Thought or Trauma Response
03:00 - Today’s Topic: Peacekeeping vs Peacemaking
03:40 - What Jesus Meant by Peacemakers (Not Peacekeepers)
04:11 - Signs of Peacekeeping (People-Pleasing & Avoidance)
05:02 - Why Peacekeeping Gets Praised
05:50 - Fear at the Root of Peacekeeping
06:40 - How Peacekeeping Makes You Disappear
07:32 - Real-Life Example: Family Tension & Boundaries
08:36 - Leadership Struggles: Avoiding Hard Conversations
09:45 - Fragilizing: Walking on Eggshells
10:29 - Self-Perception vs How Others See You
11:39 - Fear of Hurting Others vs Fear of Losing Connection
12:44 - Why Fragilizing Hurts Growth
13:59 - Tension: When to Confront vs When Not To
15:13 - Jesus Example: Confronting Without Escalating
16:03 - What True Peacemaking Looks Like
16:48 - Peacekeepers vs Peacemakers (Clear Differences)
17:39 - Why This Leads to Healing (Not Just Harmony)
17:59 - Practical Steps to Become a Peacemaker
19:09 - Step 1: Admit Specifics
19:34 - Step 2: Avoid Excuses
20:00 - Step 3: Accept Consequences
20:18 - Step 4: Ask for Forgiveness
20:53 - Closing + Next Episode Teaser

In this episode of Two Pastors and a Mic, we kick off our new series asking a powerful question: Is this a godly thought… or a trauma response?

And we start with one of the most common (and sneaky) ones in church culture: false humility.

For many of us, what we’ve called “humility” is actually self-rejection. We’ve been trained to downplay our gifts, deflect compliments, and avoid affirmation—all in the name of being “spiritual.” But what if that’s not humility at all? What if it’s insecurity… fear… or even internalized shame?

In this episode, we unpack where false humility comes from, why it feels safe, and how it may actually be robbing you of confidence, identity, and freedom...
Why deflecting compliments isn’t humility
How church culture often trains us to think less of ourselves
The difference between humility and self-rejection
Why false humility can disconnect you from your identity
What Jesus actually modeled (confidence, security, and truth)
A simple practice to begin breaking this pattern: just say “thank you”

If you’ve ever struggled to receive affirmation, celebrate yourself, or believe good things about who you are… this conversation will hit close to home.

00:00 - Welcome + Podcast Intro
01:31 - Hill City Invite + New Galatians Series
01:52 - Deflecting Compliments (Real-Time Example)
02:07 - New Series: Godly Thought or Trauma Response?
03:27 - Why These Patterns Look Spiritual
04:08 - Topic: False Humility vs Worthiness
05:00 - Why We Deflect Compliments
06:09 - What We Were Taught About Humility
07:12 - You Are Worthy (Reframing Identity)
08:34 - Pendulum Swing: Pride vs Self-Rejection
09:16 - False Humility Robs Confidence
09:50 - Church Teachings That Shape Low Self-Worth
11:03 - Internalized Shame Disguised as Humility
12:14 - Jesus Restores Identity, Not Self-Hate
14:28 - What’s Underneath? (Counseling Lens)
15:10 - Fear of Disappointment + Staying Small
16:19 - What True Humility Actually Is
18:33 - Affirmation Builds Security, Not Pride
19:18 - Learning to Celebrate Yourself
20:04 - Why False Humility Feels Safe
20:55 - Simple Practice: Just Say “Thank You”
22:00 - Letting Goodness Land Internally
22:50 - Final Encouragement + Closing

In this episode of Two Pastors and a Mic, we kick off a brand new conversation about something many Christians never stop to question: what if some of the behaviors we’ve called “spiritual maturity” are actually survival patterns?

We talk about three reasons churches often unintentionally reward unhealthy patterns, not because leaders are malicious, but because many of us were formed by the same systems ourselves. From self-shrinking that looks like humility, to overworking that looks like sacrifice, to people-pleasing that looks like love, this episode sets the stage for a deeper series on trauma responses disguised as godliness.

If you’ve ever wondered whether a certain response in your life is actually healthy… or just familiar… this episode is for you.

In this conversation, we cover:
Why survival behaviors can look like spiritual maturity
How churches often reward what keeps systems stable
Why many leaders unknowingly reinforce the same unhealthy patterns they were taught
How Jesus modeled security, wholeness, boundaries, and honesty
Why healing is not about becoming less spiritual, but more honest

This episode is a bridge into a new series where we’ll unpack common Christian behaviors and ask: is this actually godly, or is it a trauma response?

00:00 - Intro & Podcast Updates
01:03 - Indiana Sports Talk
02:20 - The 2:6 Life Recap
02:58 - New Series: Godly Thought or Trauma Response?
03:54 - Why Churches Reward Survival Patterns
04:58 - Reason 1: Survival Behaviors Look Spiritual
09:53 - Reason 2: Churches Reward What Keeps Things Stable
11:53 - Reason 3: Leaders Were Formed by the Same Patterns
15:23 - Jesus as the Model of Secure Wholeness
16:25 - The Real Question: Survival or Spirituality?
16:57 - Why This Series Matters
18:27 - Next Week: False Humility & Receiving Affirmation
20:31 - Closing Encouragement