The Miss America pageant has always had its critics, but the stories of the organization and those who participated in it are far more dynamic than most people recognize. In this episode, Bob & Ben speak with Amy Argetsinger whose new book There She Was: The Secret History of Miss America explains Miss America's origins, how the pageant both shaped and was shaped by American society, and why it might be okay that the pageant's significance in American culture has faded.

Bonus: Bob calls Miss USA "the confederacy of beauty pageants." Listen to find out why that makes sense!

Amy Argetsinger is an editor for The Washington Post's acclaimed Style section, where she has overseen coverage of media, popular culture, politics and society. Her new book There She Was: The Secret History of Miss America was published by Atria/One Signal Publishers in September of 2021. You can follow Amy on twitter at @AmyArgetsinger.

This episode was edited by Gary Fletcher.