Welcome to episode 25 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this episode, the presenters, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay Buddhist practitioner and journalist Jo Confino, are joined for a second time by special guest, eco-philosopher Joanna Macy.

A scholar of Buddhism, systems theory, and deep ecology, Joanna Macy, PhD, is one of the most respected voices in the movements for peace, justice, and ecology. She interweaves her scholarship with learnings drawn from six decades of activism, has written twelve books, and teaches an empowerment approach known as the Work That Reconnects. 

Together, they talk about the passing and legacy of Thich Nhat Hanh, with a focus on interbeing and continuation. Additional topics include their own practices during uncertain times, and the application of Thay’s teachings in daily life.

Joanna reflects on the early days of peace activism, becoming aware of Thay in the 1960s, and meeting him for the first time in the early 1980s, during a special United Nations session on disarmament.

She further delves into Thay’s courage, imagination, and devotion to life and peace; religion and revolution; why framing the tackling of climate change as a ‘fight’ may not be helpful; transcending individualism and achieving a wider sense of self; seeing our interconnection and inter-existence with all life on Earth; humility; the ‘legacy’ of nuclear weapons; affection and love; honouring the pain we experience for the world; seeing with new eyes; having that ‘sense of wonder’ at the end of the world; and gratitude.

Additionally, she talks about some of the main concepts in the new edition of her classic book, Active Hope: How to Face the Mess We’re In with Unexpected Resilience and Creative Power, such as the importance of having “power with, not power over”.  

And: how would she like to see her continuation in this world? 

Brother Phap Huu discusses ways that Thay’s teachings can help us in these times of crises; Thay’s legacy as a peace activist; taking care of the past, present, and future; what it means to be a Bodhisattva; the interbeing effect; moderation; change; and the need for a spiritual dimension.

Jo muses over the importance of bringing the future into the present moment; humility; how Thay became his teachings; and honours Joanna as a teacher and Bodhisattva. 

The episode ends with a meditation on interbeing, guided by Joanna Macy. 

[This episode was recorded on February 16, 2022, via Zoom.] 

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

Quotes

“One reason that Thay was so important to me was that he loved this world – and I’m so fed up with spiritual people who think they can rise above mere phenomenality and the physical world; it’s all one.” 

“You don’t try to be a spiritually perfect person; just be open to love. That love wipes out fear, takes you into this world, and gives you strength and courage.”

“‘This is’ because ‘that is’, and ‘that is’ because everything is intertwined.”

“An oyster, in response to trauma, grows a pearl.”

“This world is too fragile and too beautiful for us to hesitate for a moment in service to peace.”

“We are part of the world, and the suffering that is outside is also a part of us. And if the outside suffers, we will suffer also. And if we can bring peace to little villages, little communities, little families, the impact will multiply and have the interbeing effect; the idea that everything can connect and effects can ripple through.” 

“One part of what’s killed us is competition. That’s the ‘gift’ of five centuries of individualism and capitalism.”

“This planet doesn’t know whether it’ll be around to carry life. So that makes every moment precious. This moment is once in a lifetime.” 

“It’s at the moment when we’re most tender that our heart opens the widest; when we have nothing left, nothing more to lose, everything becomes crystal clear. Everything becomes precious.”

“Don’t try to cheer yourself up all the time. Feel the sorrow, feel the grief. Feel the loneliness. Feel that it’s good that you’re alive. And the fact that you care for the world, that’s a form of love. Do not let that get pathologized. It isn’t, because it’s not abnormal. It’s a face of love. Pain for the world and love for the world are just two sides of one coin. So honour your pain for the world.”

“Don’t complain all the time. You’re not going to be useful to the world in any way if you’re not glad to be here. And then sorrow together.”

“Thay had that quality of such fullness of presence that he didn’t have time to think about, ‘Well, how are they seeing me?’”

List of resources 

Joanna Macy
https://www.joannamacy.net/ 

Plum Village
https://plumvillage.org/

Fragrant Palm Leaves: Journals 1962–1966 
https://www.parallax.org/product/fragrant-palm-leaves/

Pratītyasamutpāda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da 

Dr. Dan Siegel
https://drdansiegel.com/ 

Songs: ‘No Coming, No Going’
https://plumvillage.org/library/songs/no-coming-no-going-song/ 

Bodhisattva 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva

Tassajara Zen Mountain Center
ttps://www.sfzc.org/practice-centers/tassajara

Call Me by My True Names: The Collected Poems of Thich Nhat Hanh
https://plumvillage.org/books/call-me-by-my-true-names/

St. Francis of Assisi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Assisi

Active Hope
https://www.activehope.info/ 

The Way Out Is In: ‘Grief and Joy on a Planet in Crisis: Joanna Macy on the Best Time to Be Alive (Episode #12)’
https://plumvillage.org/podcast/grief-and-joy-on-a-planet-in-crisis-joanna-macy-on-the-best-time-to-be-alive-episode-12/