At this point, most of us know the Thanksgiving story about the Pilgrims and the Indians happily indulging in a joint feast is a vast oversimplification of what actually happened. But how many of us still have an idea of Native people that's stuck in the past? "People didn't believe that I was Native because I was from North Carolina," Lumbee Indian Malinda Maynor Lowery says. "The only thing they learned about Indians in school, maybe, was that we were removed from the Southeast."
In this first episode of Gravy, first shared almost 10 years ago today, meet a tribe of Indians who are very much still in the Southeast—and whose food reflects a distinct hybrid of Southern and Native history. The Lumbee's story is one that spans centuries, and includes new windows into periods you may think you know—like the Jim Crow era. Plus something you'll be eager to eat: the collard sandwich.
If you want more after that, check out these oral histories of the Lumbee community, done by the SFA's Sara Wood.
You might also want to read Malinda Maynor Lowery's book "Lumbee Indians in the Jim Crow South."
And, if you're dying to make your own collard sandwich, you can find a recipe for that and much more in Gloria Barton Gates' "The Scuffletown Cookbook."
Tina Antolini, Gravy's first producer, reported and produced this episode. Tina has worked in public radio for nearly 20 years. She was a senior producer for NPR's State of the Reunion, for which she won a Peabody and a national Edward R Murrow Award for her work.
 
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Adaptation, Survival, Gratitude: A Lumbee Thanksgiving Story

Gravy shares stories of the changing American South through the foods we eat. Gravy showcases a South that is constantly evolving, accommodating new immigrants, adopting new traditions, and lovingly maintaining old ones. It uses food as a means to explore all of that, to dig into lesser-known corners of the region, complicate stereotypes, document new dynamics, and give voice to the unsung folk who grow, cook, and serve our daily meals.

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In “How Pineywoods Cattle Bucks Big Beef,” Gravy producer Stephanie Burt takes listeners out to the rolling pastures of the South to meet Pineywoods cattle, a breed that’s been grazing in the Southern region of the United States since the 1500s. The cow that some see as old fashioned is being considered in new ways when it comes to farming in the twenty-first century.
Beef is big business in the U.S. In 2022, the country’s beef consumption was the highest it's been since 2010, and the industry prizes big cows for efficient processing and big bottom lines. And this is despite the rise in what overall is termed “plant-based meat alternatives,” a response to the argument that raising cattle the way most American ranchers do, with mass production methods that don’t take into account the health of the land, is a contributor to climate change.
But not all cows are built the same, and one rare breed is gaining attention for its adaptability to the Southern environment. Pineywoods is well suited to the growing use of regenerative farming methods that are aiming to address beef-raising climate questions. It can positively impact a farm’s ecosystem instead of harming it. Plus, it has an ability to withstand hot summers. And it tastes delicious. 
In this episode, Burt talks to D. Phillip Sponenberg, professor of Pathology and Genetics in the Virginia-Maryland College of Veterinary Medicine at Virginia Tech, to find out what makes Pineywoods perfectly suited to the American South. She also introduces listeners to three cattle ranchers experienced with the breed: Cristiaan Steenkamp of BDA Farms in Uniontown, Alabama; Will Harris of White Oak Pastures in Bluffton, Georgia; and Mike Hansen of Ozark Akerz, a small farm in Coleridge, North Carolina. Together, they explain how Pineywoods contributes to the larger ecosystem of the South and how industry norms present barriers to its growth. Finally, chef Scott Peacock of Marion, Alabama, describes the distinctive flavor of Pineywoods beef on the plate.
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How Pineywoods Cattle Bucks Big Beef

In “Unshelled: George Washington Carver's Real Legacy," producers Ishan Thakore and Katie Jane Fernelius explore a lesser-known aspect of Dr. George Washington Carver’s legacy: his role as a conservationist and a practitioner of sustainable agriculture.
Carver’s life defies easy explanation. He was born enslaved and rose to the heights of American academia. Long a painter before he became a botanist, Carver’s art was even accepted into the 1893 World’s Fair in Chicago. After his death, evangelicals, the LGBTQ community, and the NAACP all heralded him as a pioneer. The military even named a ship after him during World War II. But today, most listeners might only vaguely recall him as “the peanut guy,” who makes a recurring, albeit one-dimensional appearance during Black History Month.
Mark Hersey, an environmental historian and author of My Work is that of Conservation: An Environmental Biography of George Washington Carver, argues that most people have considered Carver in the wrong light for years. Carver advocated for seeing connections between animals and the land, and articulated tenets of organic and sustainable agriculture well before they entered the mainstream. Carver’s deep Christian convictions informed his conservationist thinking. He saw the world as something to be revered, studied, and protected from degradation. And ultimately, he thought his life’s work was to uplift the lot of Black farmers in the South.
But, it was his peanut work which ultimately catapulted him to fame. For years, Carver worked at Tuskegee Institute (now University), under the direction of Booker T. Washington. At Tuskegee, Carver headed up an experimental agriculture station, where he wrote research bulletins and brought demonstrations to the countryside to help impoverished Black sharecroppers and tenant farmers in Macon County, Alabama. In an effort to find a low-cost, high-calorie plant which could be grown for food by sharecroppers, Carver began to promote peanuts. He collated recipes and uses, and enthusiastically espoused the hardy legume. And in Carver, the peanut lobby found a perfect spokesperson to testify in front of the House Ways and Means Committee in 1921, to push for a protective tariff.
Carver’s role as an expert witness brought fame and stardom, but distorted his impact for generations. Hersey argues that Carver’s other work, as a conservationist, should be at the forefront of his legacy. In examining Carver’s legacy today in practice, farmers like Nick Speed are reacquainting people with Carver’s relationship with the land. Speed runs the nonprofit Ujima and its related entity, the George Washington Carver Farms in St. Louis, Missouri. GWC Farms aims to honor Carver’s legacy as a farmer who thought holistically about the land he tended. In understanding Carver as a pioneering Black conservationist, listeners might finally be able to move beyond Carver and the peanut.
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Unshelled: George Washington Carver's Real Legacy

In "Yock Is for Lovers: Chinese Soul Food in Tidewater Virginia," Gravy producer Nicole Hutcheson delves into the history of Yock-a-Mein, tracing its origins to the Tidewater region of Virginia and delving into its significant role in shaping the distinctive culinary tradition known as Chinese soul food.
Originally created by a novice noodle maker and budding entrepreneur, Yock-a-Mein has evolved into an unofficial regional delicacy, gracing the tables of baby showers, rent parties, office potlucks, and funeral repasses. Rooted in humble ingredients born of necessity, it carries a legacy of resilience often overlooked in the world of gastronomy. Yock has not only sustained communities for generations, but also served as a unifying force among them.
While the narrative of Southern cuisine commonly reflects on the nation’s colonial past and the fusion of enslaved Africans, Native Americans, and Europeans, there exists another narrative—the convergence of urban and immigrant communities in the early 20th century, forging new culinary traditions in the South. 
Today, with many original establishments serving Yock and other Chinese soul food specialties now facing closure, the rich history of these dishes is in question. 
In this episode of Gravy, Hutcheson speaks with Frank Duenas, owner of Mama Chan’s Chinese Takeout in Portsmouth, Virginia, now in its third decade of business. She meets Jenny Wong, whose father Park F. Wong once owned the Norfolk Noodle Factory in Norfolk and created Yock-a-Mein noodles, as well as Greg Shia, who purchased the factory in 2003 and operates it today. Finally, Andreka Gibson—known locally as the “Yock Queen”—describes her journey from Yock pop-up to flourishing, Instagram-worthy business, charting the future of this regional tradition.
For Hutcheson and her audience, recognizing the history and origins of this dish stands as a testament to its enduring presence. By spotlighting those who continue the tradition, the hope is to preserve its legacy for generations to come.
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Yock Is for Lovers: Chinese Soul Food in Tidewater Virginia

Have you ever been to a wedding and wondered how hundreds of plates of food arrive at the right destinations at the right time? Often without an on-site kitchen. This is high-concept cooking, done without a net. Cookbook authors Matt Lee and Ted Lee spent four years immersed in the catering industry and wrote a book about their experiences and revelations called Hotbox. In this episode, we step behind the scenes with the Lee Brothers as our guides. 
Sara Brooke Curtis is an award-winning radio producer. Her work has aired on The Splendid Table, KCRW’s UnFictional, KCRW’s Good Food, CBC’s Love Me, and BBC’s Short Cuts, among others. She lives in western Massachusetts and loves recording sounds of everyday life and producing sonic worlds for listeners to surrender to and delight in.
Special thanks to Steven Satterfield, Virginia Willis, Matt Bolus, Shuai and Corey Wang, Cheetie Kumar, Vishwesh Bhatt, and Eddie Hernandez for their delicious food and interviews.
Hotbox: Inside Catering, the Food World's Riskiest Business, published by MacMillan, may be purchased from your favorite local bookstore.
Gravy is proud to be a part of the APT Podcast Studios.
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Catering: Behind the Pipe and Drape

In “California Dreams and Flossie’s Mississippi Tamales,” journalist and Gravy producer Eve Troeh joins businesswoman Sandra Miller Foster to tell the story of the restaurant Flossie’s, and the mother-daughter dream that fueled it. This story grew from a simple question: “Does anyone serve Mississippi-style hot tamales in Los Angeles?” The answer was clear, but complicated. There was just one documented place that sold the specialty, and it brought Troeh to Foster. 
The narrative of Sandra, her mother Flossie Miller, and their celebrated Southern cooking spans from a Cleveland, Mississippi fine dining restaurant in the 1950s to an empty strip mall storefront in 1980s Los Angeles. Flossie’s grew famous for beloved “meat and three” plate lunches and dinners at its southern California location—with, yes, the simmered and spicy hot tamales on offer as well. They struggled to get their business off the ground, closing their first place after just three years. But eventually they built a celebrated restaurant that lasted decades, and defined success on their terms. 
Owning a restaurant, for so many people, is more than just a business venture. It represents pride, the joy of service, and the ability to work for yourself. Restaurants are more likely to be owned by women or people of color than other businesses. And nearly half of restaurant businesses are owned by women. 
For this episode, Troeh interviews Sandra Foster and her best friend of forty-plus years, Susan Anderson, to learn how hard work and self-reliance made a Southern soul food institution thrive in Los Angeles. The story of Flossie’s twenty-plus years in business is one of family triumphs and losses, critical acclaim that led to lines of customers out the door, and many more twists and turns. It prompts bigger questions of who gets opportunities in the restaurant business, what it takes to make it as an independent owner, and what success really means at the end of the day.
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Adaptation, Survival, Gratitude: A Lumbee Thanksgiving Story

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