Renowned urbanist Alain Bertaud has spent six decades studying cities: from working as a young draftsman in Chandigarh in 1963 to advising governments worldwide on urban land markets. His book Order Without Design has become a touchstone for New Zealand's housing reforms, cited by ministers on both sides of the aisle. In this episode, Eric and Benno are joined by Bertaud and Salim Furth of the Mercatus Centre to discuss why cities are labour markets first and infrastructure projects second, what happens when planners try to control things they cannot predict, why monitoring land prices may be the single most important thing a planning department can do, and how to make sure infrastructure investment and delivery serves the spontaneous order rather than the other way around. As both guests note, New Zealand has worked through so many of the foundational policy questions that the debate is now at the frontier: how to finance and deliver infrastructure under genuine uncertainty, in a system that lets cities grow flexibly. These are problems you only get to when the earlier questions have been answered well. The world is watching.