Today's guest is Lionel Shriver, the provocative writer best known for novels like We Need to Talk About Kevin, The Mandibles, and, most recently, Mania.

We talked a few days after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, an event whose lasting significance she cautioned against overinterpreting. "We want tragedies to mean something," she said. "And maybe they don't." Shriver offered cutting critiques of Gen Z socialists, Tucker Carlson, Kamala Harris, and President Donald Trump, whom she said is devoid of "any firm principles."

In a New York Times op-ed a decade ago, she thanked Rand Paul for "nominally refurbishing libertarianism so that it is halfway respectable," but now says the term has become tarnished as "far right." She told me that she is one of "those sad people who occasionally still says they would like a smaller government" and isn't "interested in massive social control." Yet she seems to be growing more conservative, making dismissive comments about "the trans thing" and arguing against large-scale immigration, which is also the topic of her next novel, A Better Life, that is set to be released early next year.

This interview was recorded live at an event in New York City.

The Reason Interview with Nick Gillespie is a libertarian podcast that goes deep with the artists, entrepreneurs, politicians, and visionaries who are defining the 21st century.

0:00—Introduction

1:44—Lionel Shriver's health battles

4:06—The danger of overinterpreting events

11:02—Weaponizing identity for conflict

19:06—Shriver's views on libertarianism

22:54—Donald Trump and Kamala Harris

27:51—Shriver's novelist inspirations

32:27—Gen Z's problematic relationship with history

41:59—Concerns about mass immigration

• Producer: Paul Alexander
• Audio Mixer: Ian Keyser

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