From Episode 9, ALICE BROWNE chats with JILLIAN KNIPE about what she's been doing, reading and seeing, as well as her hopes for the year ahead. 

We delve into worship, floating, yellow, sainthood, caves, underwolds, pergatory, visceral visions, dark spaces, psychological potential, sharing dreams, self destruction, happy endings, vertical journeys, painting cracks, slapstick behaviour, maleable materials, early renaissance paintings and being a shit actress.

ALICE BROWNE

alicebrowne.com

@alicerbrowne

ARTISTS

Adam Hennessey

Ann Hamilton

Gabriela Giroletti

Giovanni de Paolo

Hannah Hughes

Hannah Tilson

Jennifer Caroline Campbell

Josephine Baker

Laura White

Lauren Godfrey

Lena Brazen

Lucy Mayes

Mikhail Karikis

Oona Grimes

Pia Pack

Zadie Xa

BOOKS + WRITERS

The Call of Cthulhu by H P Lovecraft

Cherry Smyth

The Divine Comedy by Dante

Drowned World by J G Ballard

Love Letter by George Saunders

The Natural Pigment Handbook by Lucy Mayes

Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy

ORGANISATIONS + COLLECTIVES

A P P E A R Artworks

Binder of Women

Bow Arts

Gillian Jason Gallery

Hypha Studios

National Gallery

Outpost Gallery

Pinnacle Climbing Club

Sainsbury Wing

Salts Mill 

Turner Prize

Guest artist ALINE MOTTA

joins PELUMI ODUBANJO to discuss her work via 'Water is a Time Machine' by the artist herself. Originally published in Brazilian Portuguese by Fósforo Editora and Luna Parque Edições in 2022, the text reconfigures memories by using a non-linear perception of time and is part of a multi-layered project including video and performance. It includes personal documents that belong to the artist's mother, her calendars and journals from the 1970s and an account of her death in 2011, which is the central piece and backbone of the work.

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Aline and Pelumi discuss the book's stories around the artist's family members and their lives in Rio de Janeiro at the turn of the 20th century, a time of political turmoil which immediately followed the abolition of slavery. Their conversation encompasses floating, bombs, bridges, tuberculosis, mistranslation, iconography, submerging, chemotherapy, prayer, breathing, stoicism, Catholicism, time machines, interracial marriage, film school, personal archives, double images, direct communication, permanent connections, exchanging cells, changing organs, fraught connections, Congolese traditions, disciplinarian mothers, avoiding sugarcoating, intentional disorientation, umbilical cords, oral histories, heavy heartedness, Yoruba influences, colonial erasure, speculative studies, layers of time, writing in fragments, metaphors of motherhood, constructing new narratives, sleeping in hammocks, foundations of thought, clothes being archives, abolition of slavery, lineage as language, contradictions in relationships, the beginning of the Republic, the way histories are told in (black) families, trying to find reasons for a person's death, the magic of making someone breath under water, using words to make maps, connecting personal history with collective history, envisioning new pasts to free us from old narratives and manifest new futures, plus a recipe to treat bruises.

ALINE MOTTA

alinemotta.com

@1alinemotta

'A água é uma máquina do tempo' / 'Water is a time machine'

'(Outros) Fundamentos' / '(Other) Foundations'

'Pontes sobre Abismos' / 'Bridges over the Abyss'

INSTITUTIONS

Bienal de São Paulo 2023 'Choreographies of the Impossible'

Buenos Aires, Palermo Buenos Aires, Argentina

Centre Pompidou, France

MALBA Museo de Arte Lanoamericano de Buenos Aires / Latin American Art Museum of Rietberg Museum, Zurich

ARTISTS + FILM + WRITERS

'BLKNWS: Terms & Conditions' 2025 

John Akomfrah 'Vertigo Sea' 2015

Kathleen Collins 'Whatever Happened to Interracial Love?' 2016

Kahlil Joseph

'Losing Ground' 1982

Professor Stuart Hall (1932-2014)

Rosana Paulino

Saidiya Hartman 'Lose Your Mother: A Journey Along the Atlantic Slave Route' 2006

'The Cruz Brothers and Miss Malloy' 1980

PLACES

Angola

Australia

Bahia

Bahia

Brazil

Burma

Cachoeira

Congo

Germany

Ghana

Guanabara Bay

Myanmar

Niterói

Nigeria

Portugal

Rio de Janeiro

São Paulo 

Sierra Leone

Torres Strait Islands

TERMS + CULTURAL GROUPS

ase/ashe

Bantu languages

capoeira martial art movement

Kimbundu/Mbundu language

maracatu dance

ori

orishas

oyinbo/oyibo

samba dance

Yoruba

Guest artist AYO AKINGBADE

joins ELIZABETH FULLERTON to discuss her work via 'In the Eye of the Wild' by Nastassja Martin. Published in 2021, the story follows the aftermath of a French anthropologist's gruesome attack by a bear, while she is living with the Evan people on Russia's Kamchatka Peninsula.

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EMAIL US [email protected]

Ayo and Elizabeth's conversation encompasses healing, hostility, joy, architecture, nepotism, romance, underdogs, irony, phobias, animism, neglect, transformation, swimming, analogue, memoir, disfigurement, hopefulness, multifaceted, strong women, self-centring, turning points, arthouse niche, tarot reading, anthropological study, defence mechanisms, shared fearlessness, spiritual guides, questioning society's expectations, power in names, thinking the worse, colonisation of microbes, French new wave and the rewards of positive thinking.

AYO AKINGBADE

ayoakingbade.com

'Keep Looking' 2024, 14 minute film

'Head of Idoani Girl' 2024, giclee print

'Show Me the World Mister' 2023, publication

'Faluyi' 2022, 14 minute film

'The Fist' 2022, 24 minute film

'Jitterbug' 2022, 24 minute film

'Dear Babylon' 2019, 21 minute film

'Tower XYZ' 2017 3 minute film

BOOKS WRITERS

Derek Walcott 'The First'

Franz Kafka 'The Trial'

Fred Moten

FILM ARTISTS

Agnès Varda

Alfred Hitchcock

Alice Rohrwacher 'La Chimera'

Chantal Akerman 'Family Business'

Chris Marker 'Sans Soleil'

David Lynch

Harun Farocki 'Workers Leaving the Factory' 1995

Mark Dion

Jacques Rivette

Jean-Luc Godard

Jim Jarmusch

Julian Schnabel 'The Diving Bell and the Butterfly'

Lumière Brothers 'Workers Leaving the Lumière Factory in Lyon' 1895

Roni Horn

Stanley Kubrick 'Dr. Strangelove or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb'

Steve McQueen 'Caribs' Leap / Western Deep' 2002

Steven Spielberg

Quentin Tarantino 'Inglorious Bastards'

Werner Herzog 'Grizzly Man'

ARCHITECTURE

Dora Boatemah

Le Corbusier

ART INSTITUTIONS

Artangel London

Chisenhale Gallery

Cinereach

Institute of Contemporary Art

John Hansard Gallery

London Film Festival

London LCC

Spike Island

The Baltic Gateshead

The Whitworth

PERFORMERS

Ebenezer Obey 'The Only Condition to Save Nigeria'

Josh O'Connor

Kate Bush

Okwui Okpokwasili

Sade Adu

ART FICTIONS MUSIC Griffin Knipe 

ART FICTIONS LOGO Joanna Quinn 

Guest artist LAUREN GODFREY

joins JILLIAN KNIPE to discuss her work via 'Heartburn' by Nora Ephron. Published in 1983, it tells a recipe rich story of Rachel Samstat and her husband Mark's marriage breakdown as a result of his affair with Thelma Rice.

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Lauren and Jillian's conversation encompasses misogyny, kreploch soup, fat phobia, hot sass, slaying haters, brilliant naivety, acerbic wit, catching glimpses, high drama and potatoes as a signpost for the progress and decline of relationships. Also: losing the plot, aubergine as icon, minutiae of life, mid pregnancy betrayal, magnifying tiny moments, passing on recipes through generations, mapping of time and place through food, flood of linguistic lyricism, the power of choosing clothes, menu choice as an identity market and distilling culture into a witty sentence.

LAUREN GODFREY

@laurengodfreystudio

laurengodfrey.co.uk

'Pattern Portraits podcast'

'Group Hat'

'What We Wore'

GET IN TOUCH with us by EMAIL [email protected]

ARTISTS CURATORS

Adam Boyd

Anni Albers

Anthea Hamilton

Bethan Laura Wood

Bruce MacLean

Capability Brown

Cinzia Ruggeri

Dr George Vasey 'Harrow March 31st 2005...'

George Richardson

Gunta Stöltzl

Holly Graham

JB Blunk

Jennie Moncur

Luke Burton

Marcus Coates 'Nature Calendar'

Maria Zahle

Martin Parr

Mary Godfrey

Nadia Hebson

Patrick Heron

Rosalind Nashashibi

Rosie Gibbens

Tacita Dean 'Kodak 2006'

BOOKS AUTHORS WRITERS

AA Gill

Asako Yuzuki 'Butter'

Bob Woodwood

Carl Bernstein

Carmen Callil

David Batchelor

David Sedaris

JD Salinger 'The Catcher in the Rye' 'Franny and Zooey'

John Updike

Lena Dunham

Lennie Goodings 'Virago founder Carmen Callil was a powerhouse who changed the publishing world for the better' The Guardian 18 Oct 2022

Michelle Zauner of Japanese Breakfast 'Crying in H Mart'

Miranda July 'All Fours'

Nora Ephron 'Forget the Hamsters' The Guardian 6 Nov 2004

Phillip Roth

Raven Smith 'Men' 'Trivial Pursuits'

Salena Barry

Tank Magazine 'Pancake Day'

Vanessa Murrell

Virago Books Modern Classics

ART INSTITUTIONS

Bauhaus

Coal Drops Yard

De La Warr Pavillion

Design Museum

Gasworks

Goldsmiths CCA

Harewood House Trust

ICA

Kingsgate Project Space

Krupa Gallery

The Memphis Group

New Contemporaries

Vital Arts at Newham Hospital

FILM

Anijam animation initiative

Cher

'Ghostbusters'

'Julie and Julia'

Meg Ryan

Meryl Streep

'Sex and the City'

Silkwood

Stanley Tucci 'Taste: My Life Through Food'

When Harry Met Sally

Woody Allen

CHEFS

Elizabeth David

Julia Childs

ORGANISATIONS

Taylors of Harrogate

Selfridges

NOTED PEOPLE

James Callaghan

Margaret Thatcher

Margaret Ann Jay, Baroness Jay of Paddington

Maria Montessori

Melanie Klein

CREDITS

Griffin Knipe - music

Joanna Quinn of Beryl Productions - logo

Guest artist MARCUS COATES

joins JILLIAN KNIPE to discuss his work via 'Welsh Incident' by Robert Graves. Published in 1929, this short poem is a retelling of an overhead conversation about "un-Welsh" creatures emerging from the sea.

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Marcus and Jillian's conversation encompasses longing, empathy, humour, grasping, death, wolves, psychosis, parenting, migration, birds, badgers, unknowability, parenting, morality, predators, blindfolding, eagles, immigration and a willingness to be uplifted. Also: feeling inadequate, religious conformity, instinctive behaviours, war experiences, emptying yourself, the mundane, sounding pathetic, false destinations, exploitation of care, limitations of language, modes of relating, suspension of disbelief, de-centring of humanity, failure of the imagination, the ripple effect of artworks, plaster on a broken leg, stark realities of survival, travelling in the mind, proliferation of domestic cats, and the human need to buy in, to belong, to believe.

MARCUS COATES

@marcus_coates_

'Conference of the Birds'

katemacgarry.com/artworks/9111-marcus-coates-conference-for-the-birds-2019/

'The Trip'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEAuRv0xv8M

'The Directors'

artangel.org.uk/project/the-directors/

whatsgoingon.org.uk

'Sunbird for Palestine'

bookworks.org.uk/publishing/shop/palestine-sunbird/

'Dawn Chorous'

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF1uihdcZmY

'The Last of its Kind'

workplace.art/exhibitions/the-last-of-its-kind

'Nature Calendar'

katemacgarry.com/artworks/10446-marcus-coates-nature-calendar-2022/

'Finfolk'

COLLABORATORS

Helen Macdonald 'H is for Hawk'

Jeff Samples

ARTISTS & PERFORMERS

Brian Catling

Fiona Curran 'Your Sweetest Empire is to Please'

Helen Chadwick

Marylin Munroe

Richard Ayodeji Ikhide

Richard Burton

Thomas Bewick

AUTHORS & BOOKS

Anna Burns 'The Milkman'

Flann O'Brien 'The Third Policeman'

Robert Graves 'Welsh Incident'

GALLERIES & ART ORGS

Artangel

Freize Art Fair

Kate MacGarry

Royal Academy

The Serpentine

FILM

'The Boy and the Heron' Hayao Miyazake for Studio Ghibli

RESEARCH ARTICLE

theguardian.com/environment/2024/dec/12/why-birdsong-matters-more-than-you-think

.

Guest artist HELEN JOHNSON

joins JILLIAN KNIPE for this final episode of Series 5, to discuss her work via 'The Birds' by Tarjei Vesaas. Published originally in 1957, then by Penguin Random House in 2019, this short novel describes the relationship between Hege and her younger, mentally challenged brother Mattis. With a sense of non-judgemental simplicity and acute sensitivity, we join the siblings as they negotiate everyday life in partial isolation and on the edge of something happening.

HELEN and Jillian's conversation encompasses lightning, tenderness, siblings, gullibility, hiding, tapestry, holding, frustration, anguish, excavation, metaphors, equality, masking, knitting needles, dream worlds, shattered trees, portals, body punctures, art therapy, white supremacy, honest thieves, cartography lines, blinding flies, Oedipus complex, intergenerational privilege, psychotic structure, architectural blueprints, birthing shit, monetising colonialisation, not being othered, the weight of the work, creating a space for healing, writing being like a drawing, and a lot of Lacanian psychotherapy - a real learning experience !

HELEN JOHNSON

helenjohnson.net

'Opening' Pilar Corrias Savile Row til 6 Jan 2024

'Agency' Pilar Corrias 2019

'Warm Ties' ICA 2017

ARTISTS 

Aleksandra Waliszewska

Aliza Nisenbaum 

Bridget Riley

Christina Quarles

Denzil Forrester

Fred Williams

Georgiana Houghton

Joy Labinjo

Judy Watson

Katie Pratt

Laura Owens

Maja Ruznic

Marcus Coates 'The Directors' Artangel

Melanie Jackson

Nicole Eisenman

Njideka Akunyili Crosby 

Paola Balla

Rosie Mullan

Shanti Panchal

Yhonnie Scarce

AUTHORS + BOOKS

Darian Leader 'The New Black: Mourning, Melancholia and Depression' 2008

Jackie Wullschläger 'Monet: The Resless Vision' 2023

Jennifer Higgie 'The Other Side: A Journey into Women, Art and the Spirit World' 2023

Karl Ove Knausgaard

National Gallery of Australia 'Know My Name: Australian Women Artists Since 1900' 2021 Part 1 2022 Part 2

CURATORS + ART HISTORIANS

Helen Molesworth 'Dialogues' David Zwirner

Sarah McCrory

THEORISTS + ANALYSTS + ACTIVISTS

Anna Freud

Donald Winnicott

Jacques Lacan

Joy Shaverien

Melanie Klein

Meriki Onus

Sigmund Freud

Shirley Sharon-Zisser 'What Would a Lacanian Art Therapy Look Like'

Walter Benjamin

Wilfred Bion

GALLERIES + ART INSTITUTIONS

Glasgow International

ICA Institute of Contemporary Art

Kunstverein in Hamburg

Kingsgate Project Space

Latrobe University

MCA NSW Museum of Contemporary Art Australia

NGV National Gallery of Victoria

Pilar Corrias

SeMA Seoul Museum of Art

Tate Galleries

Guest artist ELEONORA AGOSTINI joins PELUMI ODUBANJO to discuss her art practice via 'Boxes', a short story featured in 'Elephant and Other Stories' 1998 Collins Harvill. Written by Raymond Carver and originally published in The New Yorker, the story explores connections, disillusion, powerlessness, worry and loss within a mother and son relationship, as well as the distance between listening and hearing. 

ELEONORA and Pelumi's discussion encompasses immortality, microcosmos, waitressing, belonging, mothers, self representation, the grid, family frictions, bitter endings, creepy observation, archival images, being deeply uncomfortable, hiding in bushes, multiple layers of meaning, the complicated teenage years, difficulty bringing closure to relationships, connections between pictures and performance, and not wanting to be the dictator of the image.

@eleonoraagostini

eleonoraagostini.com

Foam Talent 2024-2025

Bloomberg New Contemporaries, 2019

'A Study of Waitressing'

'A Blurry Aftertaste' 2018

'Laying with Strangers'

'Welcome Sir'

'How to Stand in Front of the Camera'

'How to Stand in Front of the Client'

'Notes for my Clients'

'The Steps'

@pelumi.odubanjo

ARTISTS

Olukemi Lijadu

Ragnar Kjartansson

WRITERS

John Cheever

Raymond Carver

GALLERIES & INSTITUTIONS

Barbican

Borough Road Gallery 'With Monochrome Eyes' 2020

Palais de Tokyo

Royal College

Guest artist MELANIE JACKSON joins artist JILLIAN KNIPE to discuss her art practice via 'Corey Fah Does Social Mobility' by Isabel Waidner. Published in 2023 by Hamish Hamilton, part of Penguin Random House, the novel explores binaries, boundaries and borders, freeing us to imagine other ways of being within the context of award winning social mobility, cyclical history, and watching reality TV. 

MELANIE and Jillian's discussion encompasses shame, humility, apology, gratitude, wormholes, reconfigured animations, cultural disruption, synthetic biology, persistent amnesia, complicated truths, brutalist architecture, unsustained caretaking, industrial metaphysics, winged penises, synthetic biology, false blaming, clashing ideologies, idealistic social housing, nano scale engineering, vulvas on horseback, ridiculing the middle class, colonialisation of language, pig fat in ice cream, what art can do as an experience, and the way histories and future technologies bounce off one another.         

MELANIE JACKSON

@melanie.jjj

melaniejackson.net

'Rouge Flambé'   

'Deeper in the Pyramid | Share of Throat'

'Spekyng Rybawdy'

'The Urpflanze'

ARTISTS + CURATORS + ACADEMICS

Esther Leslie

Ezra Lloyd Jackson

Kirsten Cooke

Nicole Eisenman 'Bambi Gregor' 1993

Olukemi Lijadu

Pelumi Odubanjo

BOOKS + MAGAZINES + WRITERS

Brian Massumi 'What Animals Teach Us About Politics' 2014

Charles Darwin 'On the Origin of the Species' 1859

Eileen Myles 'Afterglow: A Dog Memoir' 2017

Franz Kafka 'The Metamorphosis' 1915

'Frieze' magazine

Goethe 'Die Urplanze' ('The Metamorphosis of Plants') 1829

Isabel Waidner ' Sterling Karat Gold' 2021

Jo Orton

John Lahr 'Prick Up Your Ears' 1978 (film 2007)

EXHIBITIONS + INSTITUTIONS

Aspex Gallery, Portsmouth

Banner Repeater, London

Block 336, London 'Spekyng Rybawdy' 2022

Grand Union, Birmingham

Matt's Gallery, London 'Mattflix'

Max Mara Prize

Jerwood Drawing Prize

San Mei Gallery, London 'Rouge Flambè' 2023

Wellcome Collection, London 'Living with Buildings' 2018-2019

Wellcome Collection, London 'Milk' 2023

Whitechapel Gallery, London

FILM + TELEVISION

'The Nasty Girl' 1990

'Top Boy' 2011-2023

Guest writer and filmmaker JULIET JACQUES joins artist and writer JILLIAN KNIPE to discuss her creative practice via 'Variations' 2021 by the one and only Juliet herself. Published in 2021 by Influx Press, this book of short stories portrays the mixed, messy and moving lives of transexual women transexual men, non binary, gender queer, cross dressers and inverts, around London, Manchester, Liverpool, Blackpool, Brighton, Belfast, Cardiff and Norwich.

Juliet and Jillian focus on 'Standards of Care' and also discuss humour, poverty, divorce, testosterone, rainbow capitalism, fake tits, ink blot tests, electric shock therapy, alternative Miss World, punk rock gender play, friendship in the face of prejudice, making objects that cannot be sold, itchy balls of wool for breasts, fresh meat advertising slogan, interest in post communist countries, the importance of questioning how people pay the rent and the disappointment of greater understanding not necessarily bringing about greater tolerance.

JULIET JACQUES

julietjacques.com

'Monaco' Toothgrinder Press 2023

'Variations' Influx Press 2021

'Trans: A Memoir' Verso Books 2015

'Transgender Journey' 2010-2012 The Guardian

'Suite 212' 2017-2021 Resonance FM

'Revivification: Art, Activism and Politics in Ukraine' 2018

ARTISTS

Boris Mikilov

Cecilia Sjoholm

David Goymer

Deborah Tchoudjinoff

Garth Gatrix

Hatty Buchanan

Iain Hales

Laura Moreton-Griffiths

WRITERS

Susan Stryker 'Transgender History' 2008

MUSIC

Genesis

Joy Division

Man Enough to be A Woman (Jayne County)

New York Dolls

NME magazine

Sex Pistols

Siouxsie and the Banshees

Siouxsie Sioux 

The Fall

The Roxy

Wayne County and The Electric Chairs

FILM + TV

Adam Curtis 'Can't Get You Out of my Head' series 2021 BBC

Bill Grundy 'Today' 1968-1977

Derek Jarman 'Jubilee' 1978

Hattie Jacques 'Carry On' series 1958-1992

Oksana Kazmina, camera and editor

Josh Appignanesi 'Female Human Animal' 2018

EDUCATION + INSTITUTIONS

ICA London

Somerset House Studios

The Royal College

POLITICS + MOVEMENTS

Black Lives Matter

Femen 2008 Ukraine founded by Anna Hutsol, Alexandra Shevchenko, Oksana Shachko

Gay Liberation Front

Margaret Thatcher for Section 28

Revolution of Dignity 18-23 Feb 2014 Ukraine

ReSew - Kyiv based feminist sewing cooperative

Viktor Yanukovych

Guest artist ANNA CLEGG joins curator and critic VANESSA MURRELL to discuss her multi-disciplinary art practice via 'My Loose Thread' by Denis Cooper. Published in 2002 by Canongate Books, this claustrophobic novel circulates around teenage Larry who is wrestling with the point of his own existence and explores teen depression, moral vacuity and the confusion of love.

Please be warned that in following the content of Cooper's text, the programme contains references to violence and suicide.

Anna and Vanessa's discussion also encompasses psychedelics, obsession, faux Nazis, feeling violated, animal stickers, unwavering sensitivity, stupid imagery, internal rhyming, Santa Claus, swimming through mud, looping back on oneself, eyes being gummed shut, the value of confusion, dark and disturbing worlds, begrudging awareness of the reader, not being able to fathom the logic of decision making, writing through an idea rather than creating a story, and the steampunk weaponisation of ice skates.

Please!

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*contact us on [email protected]

Recorded at Cubitt Community Radio by Andi Armishah

Music GRIFFIN KNIPE

Production consultant LORI E ALAN

Logo JOANNA QUINN of BERYL PRODUCTIONS

ANNA CLEGG

relevant-confluences.com

'Half Truths' curated by Vanessa Murrell til 30 November 2023 at Unit 2 Cassia Building 97-101 Hackney Road Shoreditch London E2 8ET

ARTISTS

David Musgrave 'Lambda' 2022

James Turrell

John Baldassari 'Wrong' 1967

Joseph Cornell

BOOKS + MAGAZINES + WRITERS

Artforum magazine

Barry Pierce 'Another Magazine'

Beatrice Forster

Brett Eastern Ellis

Denis Cooper 'The George Miles Cycle' series 1989-2000

Denis Cooper 'I Wished' 2021

Elliot Jeffries

Frieze magazine

George Bataille 'Story of the Eye' 1928

Hervé Guibert 'Ghost Image' 2014

Interview magazine

Kathy Acker

Katja Kemnitz 'Too Much Love' on Tumblr

Nour El Saleh

Paul Auster

Roland Barthes 'An Introduction to the Structural Analysis of Narrative', 1975

Spin magazine

Tao Lin 'Leave Society' 2021

Tom of Finland

Victory Burgin 'Remembered Film' 2004

Vivian Sobchack

William Burroughs

MUSICIANS + FILM

Brooke Shields

Claire Denis, director and screenwriter

Larry Clark 'Bully' 2001

NLE Chopper

Terence Stamp

Xaviersobased

GALLERIES + ORGS

Chelsea School of Art

Greengrassi

Nicoletti Contemporary

Split Gallery