Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

Join Simone and Malcolm as they delve into the fascinating world of targeted immigration and its historical and modern implications. From Mennonites being lured to Canada and Mexico with special privileges to modern-day initiatives like the Tulsa Remote program and network states like Balaji's Charter City, discover how demographic shifts and fertility collapse are reshaping global migration patterns. Explore the unique characteristics that make certain populations highly desirable and discuss how future communities can thrive amid changing promises and regime changes. Don't miss this in-depth exploration of what makes a family or community attractive enough for governments to compete for their settlement!

Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm. I'm so glad to be with you today because we are going to talk about something I found quite intriguing the other day.

Picture this. What if countries and cities started fighting over you, offering cash, land, and even your own laws just to get you to move there? From Canada and Mexico, luring Mennonites with special privileges to Tulsa, Tulsa, Oklahoma, paying remote workers to relocate targeted immigration is actually quietly reshaping the world, and it has been for.

Maybe hundred years. Yeah. This is a

Malcolm Collins: huge thing. I see many as, as fertility collapse is going on. Mm-hmm. And what a lot of people you know, misunderstand about fertility collapse is they think it's a problem of warm bodies. It's not a problem of warm bodies that we, no. This is about getting

Simone Collins: the people that you want.

To your country to do certain things. Right. But you, the, the whole thing that we need to talk about here is what makes a family or a community so desirable that governments compete to track them. Like people don't realize that this isn't just like, oh, we're opening our borders to, to solve this problem.

No, it's, we want Mennonites, we want bougie couples. Do or jinx we want, but

Malcolm Collins: let's, let's talk about how this problem creates itself, okay? Mm-hmm. So the problem creates itself. It, it's uniquely bad now because it is the communities that are more economically productive and the groups that are more economically productive that are undergoing fertility rate collapse the fastest.

Yeah. But in a historic context, you also had this problem luring one immigrant group into your country was not seen as the same as luring another immigrant group into your country. Totally. Some immigrant groups were seen as. More desirable because they were more desirable. Mm-hmm. They created more economic prosperity.

Mm-hmm. Or did more development than other groups. Mm-hmm. So let's get into which groups are which.

Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely. And well, and how in a post demographic collapse world, you want your family culture to be such that you basically have your pick of the litter in terms of what. Country or charter city or techno feudalist empire you go to because you want, you want the keys to the kingdom.

You don't wanna be that deformed, post-apocalyptic family living in the borderlands. So just, I wanna also like this is. I think one thing that's important to talk about before we move forward is we recently had a podcast talking about how Hillary Clinton sort of espoused this idea that, well, it's immigrants who have all the kids and the obvious solution to.

Demographic lapse is immigration. And isn't it so crazy that the Trump administration is deporting people? And then one of our podcast followers tweeted us a report in 2000 by the UN Population Division. It was, it was titled Replacement Migration is a, is it a solution to declining in aging populations?

And this is definitely one of the most common rebuttals that we get to. Oh no. Population declined. And then the answer from so many mostly uninformed people is. Oh, just solve it with immigration. There are many, many, many issues with that. But I do wanna point out that even this 2000 report from the un, which I would say is one of the more bullish groups on like immigration solving the problem.

Yeah. Plus also the graphical options from the problem. It's going down slowly and then they're always wrong with their projections. But basically that report explored the the potential role of international immigration and migration and addressing population decline in aging. And the conclusion actually of the report is that while immigration can help mitigate the effects of the trends, the scale of migration required to significantly alter population size and age structure is likely unrealistic and potentially unsustainable.

Now, that coming from the UN is basically them admitting it's not gonna work at all. For them being like, well, it might not, it might not be sustainable to like really solve the problem means that it really isn't gonna work. But that doesn't mean that countries aren't going to try. And also a, again, just because this is something that, that countries have turned to for a long time, and this is what I had no idea about, was these like niche examples also of targeted migration.

So let's talk about Canada and Mennonites. Okay. Because this is, I, I just had no idea about this until yesterday when I started digging into it. Yeah. So in the 18 hundreds, so this is a long time ago someone in Canada's government was like. Those dudes. We want the Mennonites. How do we get these Mennonites?

And they made this package of, of special privileges just to attract them. So they actively recruited Mennonites in the 18 hundreds pr, particularly from Russia. Interestingly, by offering what they called it, a pum. A formal agreement, just like I mean, really targeted for them. It guaranteed exemption from military service, the right to run private schools, religious freedom and land grants for settlement.

And, and they were designed both to attract hardworking agricultural settlers to develop Canadian West, which makes sense. Why, like targeted Russian Mennonites. 'cause they're like, these, these dudes can handle the cold. They'll be okay.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. Makes, makes sense. Yeah. I was looking for a group of people to develop like Canadian agricultural land.

Yeah. Russian Mennonites. Yeah.

Simone Collins: They're like the the, scottish cows, oh, sorry. People who, dunno

Malcolm Collins: what the Mennonites are. It's like a br They, they're an Baptist, which means they're related to the Amish. They're basically Amish.

Simone Collins: They're, they're slightly less strict than the Amish, so depending on the Mennonite group.

And a lot of the groups that I've been looking at recently are much more conservative, almost Amish, like in, in, in how strict they are. But you, you're more likely to see Mennonites owning cars, some select machinery, like they're, I think they're more consequentialist than deontological when it comes to anti baptism, where they're like.

All right. Like, this machine actually isn't that worldly. It's just helping me do my job, so I'm gonna be okay with it. But anyway the, the long-term impact and changes this, it's interesting over time. So a bunch of, a bunch of Mennonites came over to Canada and there still are a lot of Mennonites in Canada.

But then over time, Canada started to. Erode these privileges, like especially concerning private education, which also was a problem with indigenous populations, but no one talks about Canada and their immigrant populations. Those also had some rights to private education eroded. So I think that's also interesting that.

Canada was equal opportunity and it's taking children and trying to homogenize them. So yeah,

Malcolm Collins: no, and I think they basically betrayed their Mennonite population. They totally

Simone Collins: did, which led to significant Mennonite immigration from Canada to Mexico and South America in the 1920s. Also, during World War I, anti-German sentiment led to a temporary ban on Mennonite immigration.

So Canada just got like. Super mean Mennonites. But the original pum that like set of, of that 1873 set of, of privileges that they used to target Russian Mennonites remained a touchstone for Mennonite claims to conscientious objector status during both world wars. So they still got to use parts of it, just not all of it.

And this I just wanna highlight for later discussion as we talk about what you need to be to be a desirable population and have the keys to the kingdom. Is that you also have to be prepared for an erosion of promises made, and this is a theme that's just gonna come up again and again. So listen now.

Now, okay, it's the 1920s, right? Canada's being a dick to the Mennonites. Where do they go? Well, Latin America's like. So these guys develop land and are productive and they, they, you know, produce good agricultural goods like I want them. So they started offering privilege and Mexico was one of the first to really get on the bandwagon.

And also, like the Mennonites didn't have to go as far to get there. So like Mexico was a really popular first destination for them, and a ton of Mennonite settled there. So Mexico's offer of state finance migration, which is kind of how, like some ais were describing it to me and I'm like, what is state finance migration?

The, the offer of state MI finance migration to Mennonites in the 1920s was not direct financial support in the form of cash payments or government funded travel, but rather a comprehensive package of incentives and privileges designed to attract and facilitate Mennonites settlement. Here's how the Mexican government supported Mennonite migration.

So one, they offered land access and sales at very favorable terms, so they're like. You know, here's this big tract of land like it's yours. We're gonna make it easy. We're not gonna, I mean, 'cause buying land in foreign countries can be very difficult. I just wanna lay that out there. So the Mexican government agreed to sell large tracks of land to Mennonite settlers at very reasonable prices, and specifically in northern states of Chihuahua and Durango.

Which is where you'll see, still see some of these populations. And that's because these were actually at the time and we're talking 1920s, suffering from. Economic and demographic decline

Malcolm Collins: really well. The 1920s did have a major demographic issue that we talked about before that was only really solved by the baby boom, which seems to have mostly been a result of improving medical talent.

Yeah,

Simone Collins: well this, this specific one, especially in those regions, was resulting from the Mexican revolution, but still, like also this, just to be clear. Countries experiencing demographic decline and e economic decline in regions or even universally is not a new concept. And immigration is like the first thing where they're like, oh, let's just import the prob.

Like, we'll import a solution. But then just, yeah, go ahead.

Malcolm Collins: Solution mites are an action if you're gonna import a group to like develop a region. Yeah. Mennonites are a great group to import because they are pathologically pacifistic. Yeah. While they will not acculturate into your culture they also will not prey on your culture and attempt to take converts.

Yeah. They're a group that is pacifist, that won't seek converts and will just grow and develop land and contribute economically. I

Simone Collins: won't see comforts. Yeah, for the most part. We'll, we'll get into that. We'll get into one instance

Malcolm Collins: in which they did convert giant

Simone Collins: population two. Well, two, two. So yeah.

But, so Canada sim, sorry, Mexico similar to Canada also offered the legal and social privileges that Mennonites really need to be able to settle somewhere. So. Through a formal agreement with President Al, sorry, Alvaro Obon. Mennonites were granted exemption from military service. Very important freedom to operate in their own schools and teach their own language, full religious liberty, the right to dispose of property as they wished, and no taxes for 100 years.

There's some speculation about it, but that's a fricking huge. Draw because I think they were just, wait, you don't

Malcolm Collins: have taxes for a hundred years for, for Mennonites.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And I've, I have three citations on that. I can give them to you if you want. Like this. There's, this is documented. There. There is, there's, this is according to some accounts, but I mean, I bet that, I mean, at least some government officials were like, yeah, don't worry about it.

Just don't, don't pay taxes. There's such insular communities that I could see like. Them. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well let me guess. They like immediately went back on that after like a few decades,

Simone Collins: Maybe. So here's another important thing though, is the, the government also provided military and police protection for Mennonite colonies when conflicts arose with local populations and bandits.

So when they first came over in the 1920s, despite the Mennonites being pacifist, because they were going to fairly like wild West regions. They even got protection from the government. And that's pretty big too. And I mean, that, that's a, that's a wonderful privilege, but we'll see how that, how that ended up.

Beyond that though, they had a political

Malcolm Collins: in rural Mexico. Not, well,

Simone Collins: I mean, you know but officials at both the local and federal levels often intervene to resolve land disputes in favor of Mennonites. Sometimes using force to remove other claimants from lands that were purchased by Mennonites.

So this is like, they were really going above and beyond to be like, nah, man, these dudes are gonna like. Actually do something productive with this land. It's theirs. You are out and this is their own citizens. So this is this, I think this is a really good illustration of how far a company's, or sorry, a country or company that becomes a nation stakeholder will be a wingman for you if they think that you are desirable.

Like, screw their citizens, they'll take you. And, and there's historical precedent for that. And then the, the, the government also viewed Mennonite agricultural expertise as a means to boost regional food production and economic stability. So they prioritize their settlement as part of broader national development goals.

So that, that helps to explain why. They, they did that, but so I mean, as, as you can imagine, the primary reason why this like kind of unraveled in Mexico was that there's just like this explosion in gang violence in Mexico. So from 2012 to 2017 alone, an estimated 30,000 Mexican. Mennonites relocated just to Canada, but a bunch of Mennonites also have emigrated from northern Mexico to safer regions within the country, such as Campeche or abroad to countries like Belize, Paraguay, Argentina, and Bolivia.

And the, the reason I fell down this rabbit hole in the first place was I watched this documentary on a Mennonite community that was quite conservative in Northern Argentina. And I'm like, how the hell did these low Dutch speaking? Mennonites, they were clearly like of a Polish origin in Northern Argentina.

I just like, it was so confusing to me. But now it all makes sense and. A bunch of these countries did the same thing in trying to attract Mennonites. They're like, oh, those dude, everyone fighting over Meite, those dudes,

Malcolm Collins: but hold on, hold on. So, so now they, they come over from Canada, Uhhuh, then they go to Mexico, Uhhuh, then they go to Argentina.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And like, and so like, and again, like so Argentina, Paraguay, and Mexico, Bolivia and Belize all of them offered land grants. All of them offered military exemption though in Argentina, that's just informal. All of them offered educational autonomy and all of them, except for Argentina, offered poor formal pum.

So the same thing that Canada started in, in the 1870s. So while there's, there's no formal deal in Argentina, like basically off the books, they're totally autonomous. In Paraguay, they have more of a kind of a sovereign state thing. They, they have embedded sovereignty. As, as it's explained. That

Malcolm Collins: is absolutely fascinating.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And so they're basically like the they're basically a charter city. The Prospera? Yeah. They're, they're a charter city. Mennonite

Malcolm Collins: Prospera.

Simone Collins: Yeah, Mennonite Prospera. And in Mexico they, they had all those privileges which are now eroding because basically the state can't even take care of its gang problem.

But in Bolivia they have large land holdings. And in Belize they have lots of formal agreements. But here's what blew my mind, because I was like, okay, so I guess all the Mennonites now live. Mostly in South America, but that's not actually true. No.

Malcolm Collins: Actually the two biggest thing, out of the top three Mennonite countries, two of them are in Africa.

Simone Collins: Yes. This blew my mind. So for very similar reasons to why South America was like, yeah, move down here. The Democratic Republic of the Congo and Ethiopia were both like to, in response to the interests of some Mennonite. Missionaries like, sure, come here. As long as you develop infrastructure, we could, we could use it a very belt and road.

Like, fine, come here. Like, I'm not gonna do anything for you, but like, if you're gonna build something fine. What happened though was like, among the, the local population, a version of an baptism just kind of took off. And I thought, so I, I googled like Mennonite community, Ethiopia. I was expecting to see

like.

You know, Ethiopian families and straw hats and you know, because honestly like the reason I clicked on the Argentinian Mennonite video on YouTube was the hats these girls wear are high fashion, they're couture, they look just so great, like white brand ribbon. I'm just, okay, hold

Malcolm Collins: on, I'll look this up.

Argentinian me.

Simone Collins: I was, I was here for it. At least in this one documentary, it's just like this one community really just like nailed it. Chef's kiss kind of, kind of wear. But yeah, it's, they more just wear, I would say, oh my God, these hat are awesome. I know, right?

Malcolm Collins: I know. I'm like, no, they're really good at hats.

Yeah. It's just they say, they say they're not a proud people. Me think they dress with a little too much fried. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Actually I was, I was watching another Mennonite on a YouTube video today talk, talking about like permitted fabrics and clothing, like stuff that her mom would be cool with her getting and stuff that her mom would get mad about her getting.

I love that everything was like filtered, not through like. This is what my culture says. It's like what her mom would've let her buy. But she was, she introduced the concept of of something being fancy and something that was fancy was too worldly. But those hats are fancy. I. They,

Malcolm Collins: they don't, that, that's far too fancy.

Yeah, they're extreme,

Simone Collins: but all, they're so good. Anyway the, the Ethiopian Mennonite communities and, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo, they're, they look much more like just Congolese

Malcolm Collins: from their country. Yeah. They just, yeah. But like,

Simone Collins: but, but coordinated, coordinated, Congolese, you know, like coordinated and that like family photo ready, you know, like so really pretty good.

But anyway, yeah. Democratic Republic of the Congo. And 35,000 Mennonites Ethiopia, 224,000 Mennonites. Now the United States has more with over 390 Mennonites. And then Canada has over 137 'cause they just screwed the pooch. India, and I haven't looked into this. I need to figure out what's going on here.

Nearly 150, so 150,000. So that's more than Canada. Yeah. And then in Paraguay, 33 K, Mexico, 30 2K. Bolivia, 20 5K, Brazil, 12 K. So like, it's really not that much in Latin America, but I think that just considering how difficult it is. To migrate. Like just the incentives, it's, it's pretty impressive. So. I just like, oh, it's

Malcolm Collins: interesting actually, the Indian Mennonites they dress like pretty, like traditional Indians, I guess.

Oh, do they? They are Indians. Oh,

Simone Collins: oh, like, like Ethiopian and, and whatever it Yeah, they like, like

Malcolm Collins: Ethiopian and af Yeah.

Simone Collins: I see. The, the thing is like if I was converting to become a Mennonite, like 80%, it would be for the fashion.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: I'd be like,

Malcolm Collins: come on, what

Simone Collins: are

Malcolm Collins: you

Simone Collins: even doing? You're not a Mennonite. Like you're missing the point.

It's a sartorial choice. Whatever. You do you, I guess, you know. But I, I guess I can also see like the, the point isn't the particular style of clothing, it's that it is traditional clothing. So I mean, I I get it. Yeah. You know, don't be worldly and it would be fancy to wear foreign clothing. That is cool.

So it is un un anabaptist to do that. And I am just being sacrilegious and this is why we're tech puritans and

Malcolm Collins: yeah, we're techno puritans. We're gonna, we're our religion's gonna spread. It's gonna be the best, it's the best religion. If you haven't checked it out, techno, it's the best.

Simone Collins: Everyone knows it.

It's the best

Malcolm Collins: religion.

Simone Collins: So this, this, this brings an end to our Mennonite soliloquy. We, we are now going to discuss. Basically places doing this in modern times, aside from just like Argentina and Yeah. And you know, these people trying to siphon off the, the Mexican refugees from, you know, the failure of Mexico to protect their precious Mennonite population.

There, there is still lots of targeted immigration happening or like targeted recruiting attempts happening on behalf of, of countries. And the funny thing is, Malcolm, you and I have been directly involved with two of them in terms of applying and being interested.

Malcolm Collins: Oh really? Oh yeah. Yeah. You have actually the one in Chile.

Simone Collins: That's right. Yeah. So Chile's startup program, it specifically targets tech entrepreneurs and digital nomads, and it offers startup funding in a streamlined visa process to build the company's reputation as a tech hub. And we actively applied to that. I don't know if we got in, we did. I think we might gotten in.

We. I refused to get in. I refused to go. Was that it?

Malcolm Collins: Well we got in, but we had gotten some other opportunity and it just wasn't that much money and worth going. Yeah. Because we would have to relocate to Chile for a while and you were like, it's not worth it for the money they're giving us. Yeah. I was like, no, Chile, you're not.

And then we ended

Simone Collins: up in Peru. I didn't wanna go to South America at all, but like, no. The, the future police, the agents of Providence wanted me

Malcolm Collins: there. You're going to South America lady. Yeah. I don't care that you didn't want to take that money. Yeah. Also,

Simone Collins: Ireland and England have re programs to attract teachers, remote workers, graduates with financial incentives and relocation payments.

So they, they've done it too. Not, not as much. I, I also recall, speaking of English people, France. Really catching a lot of heat from its own citizens for changing its tax law to attract like billionaires from England. Do you remember that? Yeah. They were mad, but absolutely like this again, is, is targeted.

It's like what can we shift? What incentive will only draw in? The desirable population. And as we saw with Mexico's alleged promise of no taxes for a hundred years, which I love that one of the ways is to be like, oh, for this tax bracket, oh, this population, no taxes. So I think that's interesting.

And then, so what's the other program that we, the, the other targeted immigration program that we, we flirted with?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, was it Singapore? We were recently looking at was Balaji Company. No,

Simone Collins: that's different. That's, that's, I didn't, I, yeah, I mean, that, that is, I would say an a really good example. I.

Of and, and he's, he's, he's referring to, what is it called? Network school or network university biology. Bang something. We're in the process

Malcolm Collins: of applying. I haven't done the test yet because they want me to do it like a dumb, an IQ

Simone Collins: test. Yeah. Which

Malcolm Collins: I, I'm like, I'm a genius. I don't need to do an IQ test.

Just take my work word. They're gonna be

Simone Collins: like, who is this potato named Simone that is attempted to not, I'm

Malcolm Collins: just gonna try any math questions. I'm like, come on guys.

Simone Collins: Just, yeah. I, I finished one of them. I'm just very, like, I'm with a pen. They, they, they don't, yeah. Anyway. People, people, someone commented on one of our recent videos that I'm very smart.

Malcolm Collins: They don't realize they said that and they said that Simone's smart. So yeah. And I'm like, Hmm. I'm sorry to tell you this. My wife is basically retarded. Yeah. You know, I don't think,

Simone Collins: basically, I think I. I think retard is the this is, this is why it's not even offensive for us to use the term retard.

Yeah. It's, it's okay for

Malcolm Collins: me to say it because I, 'cause my wife is a retard. I am, I'm a

Simone Collins: retard.

Malcolm Collins: It's true. I can't

Simone Collins: even open doors. Malcolm knows this all too well.

Malcolm Collins: And that is why every morning I wake up and I just look at her and I'm like, disgusted. And I'm like, get out of bed. You're disgusting retard.

And, and, and make me my effing money and then make me dinner and care for my kids.

Simone Collins: Because that's what retards do.

Malcolm Collins: This is this is why she stays married to me, is because I've been able to train her into believing she's a retard.

Simone Collins: It's called, let's see, I just wanna make sure I get the, the name of it. B Island Paradise.

It's Network School Paradise.

Malcolm Collins: Network school. My question for you is, what's this other one that we applied to? 'cause I don't remember it right yet. Yeah. Network school. Anyway,

Simone Collins: but no, I, I, I just, I do wanna highlight the fact that, that Balaji is trying to build this network school on this island adjacent to Singapore and what I think is kind of a charter city.

I, I'm not, it's part of the Belt

Malcolm Collins: Road initiative,

Simone Collins: is it? But like, it, it feels very much like what I expect this to look like in the future, which is these techno futile charter cities. Where you have specifically, not like a collection of investors or, or an incorporation even, but like maybe you have those, but like they're led by a figurehead like Balaji, like a sort of Jesus like figure.

Yeah. Yeah. I could see Andrew Tate have one. I could see Jordan Peterson have one. I could see Elon Musk have one. I mean he's building one eventually on Simone, you

Malcolm Collins: and I will have one Austin.

Simone Collins: That'd be pretty cool. We have our Tundra one in the far north. Or Subterranean Tundra Charter City make it miserable to live in, just called Frost Punk.

We just, yeah, we just don't even get creative with it. Yeah, right. But no, so like, I think it's really exciting to see that we're, this is already here, that we're already starting to see targeted immigration and to your point, right, we're just talking about how we applied to network school and in addition to like.

Submitting a pitch deck related to our startup. Hold on. What's the

Malcolm Collins: other one we applied to?

Simone Collins: You said we applied. I'll tell you after we talk about this. So after, after doing that, the next stage of the application was literally taking an online IQ test with like the shape rotator questions. Yeah. And the vocabulary questions.

And the math questions. So that is like it. This is, they are only targeting. Top tier intellect that is also entrepreneurial. Like there's a very targeted population here. And if you are mid or retard like me, you're gonna get kicked out. Like you're not gonna be accepted. And this again, is this very targeted immigration.

So tag this in your mind as you think about how do I cultivate a population that has the keys to the kingdom? Anyway, the final one that you're, you're forgetting about. And I think this is also important because this is an example of a contemporary that, that's been around for a decent amount of time now.

Private family led. Targeted immigration program. Not to a country, not to a broad region or a state, but literally just to a city. Tell me you're not remembering this.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, Tulsa. Yeah, you're right. Tulsa. They tried it. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Tulsa. Yeah. So they have, there's the Tulsa remote program. It offers 10, 10,000, but they were so racist.

Well, we can talk about that. But they offer 10,000 as a grant to eligible individuals, only targeted people who are willing to relocate to the city and work remotely from there. Other programs designed to attract remote workers from outside Oklahoma and help reverse population decline in brain drain by bringing in talented professionals.

So what they're really looking for is like bougie dinks. To go and live there. And, but

Malcolm Collins: everything is framed around DEI, everything is framed around. That's what really

Simone Collins: turned us off. Yeah. We're like, wait, so you want us to come here, but then be second class citizens and like.

Malcolm Collins: No, they made it very clear if you are white in Tulsa, you are a second class citizen.

Yeah, that is what it felt odd. Like also they,

Simone Collins: they did a lot of things that felt very futuristic to attract families like you. You get like free access to this really nice coworking space. There are these like. You know, bougie dink apartments that you can move to. They set us up in this gorgeous, cute, boutique hotel that was all automated when we stayed, that overlooked this beautiful park and was right next to this.

Oh my God. Oh, I was pregnant at the time. So they had this amazing Mexican restaurant and you know how I'm always craving enchiladas? I can't even, yeah. And they also have the most utopian futuristic over the top park. That is like, I've never seen a park like this anywhere in the world and we've been to a lot of incredible parks.

But this park was like, am I in a sci-fi right now? Like what is going on here? And it was all developed by this one really wealthy family that also is behind the Tulsa remote program. That's just like, we're gonna make Tulsa great again and we're gonna do this. But again, this is, I think this is very.

Similar to what we're going to see in the future is these powerful families, these powerful people, these groups, these syndicates, building city states and saying, this is my land, this is my kingdom, this is my fiefdom. I want, I want the right kind of people, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be very generous to them if they come.

I'm gonna attract them with all sorts of treats. Mm-hmm. So they, they will be charter cities, they will be network states. They, they will maybe, like you say, you know, leverage countries, programs like Belt and Road or other like Charter City legislation. And there's obviously like plenty of examples of these now, but they're getting off to a rocky start.

And that rocky start is really helpful in enabling families to know what they can depend on in the future as an attractive family and where they need to also protect themselves and sort of like always make sure they have their backs on something. So consider, for example, Prospera and in Honduras, right?

They are a, a charter city. They have tax autonomy, labor autonomy, legal autonomy, and regulatory autonomy, which is why tons of cool medical experimentation is taking place there. Yeah. Anything from gene therapy to getting a chip inserted into your wrist that can open up your Tesla. That's just super fun.

I just love it. It's so cool. But the problem is that when there was a regime change in, in Honduras. The, the next president who was super socialist was like, oh, I wanna undo this. And so there's, there's all this, like, who knows if pros, like, I think now Prospera is suing Honduras for like three times.

Its GDP or something like, some, some insane amount. Yeah, because they're like, you broke your promise, but like, who knows how that's gonna go? And that is a problem, is you, you have to feel confident that whatever you're setting up isn't just going to be. Like knee capped by which why you, Eugene

Malcolm Collins: should not set.

I like, I would not set this up in Latin America. I would set this up 100% in a northern European country

Simone Collins: maybe. So I wanna hear your thoughts on, on another charter city. We really haven't engaged with much intellectually or logistically, I don't think we know anyone involved is there? The Dubai International Financial Center in the UAE, they're a financial free zone.

So they have their own commercial law, they have their own courts and their own regulation. It's just sort of like this, just different kind of thing. What are your, what are your thoughts on like the Middle East for something like this? Do you just think you're too ingroup favoring? I wouldn't.

Malcolm Collins: They are too ingroup favoring, and I wouldn't wanna live there and I would.

Trust it. Like Mm. If I was going to the, the place that we looked at doing this, which has been leaked is the Isle of Man. Yeah. You know, like that's a great place to assess. They're dealing with a major brain drain. They have a degree of autonomy. Yeah. They're not able to the eu. Yeah. But they're near all of that.

So people could easily migrate. It would be

Simone Collins: amazing. The is of man would be amazing. Plus it's our kind of weather. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: overcast.

Simone Collins: Kind of

Malcolm Collins: cool. Oh, and then what said that, that one that Aria Babu wanted to target that was a small island between the UK French Sark. Yeah. Yeah. Sark or the Isle of Man is where I would be dreamy.

Simone Collins: Dreamy. I mean, I, I would work about like, worry about Sark and severe weather. I love, man has the same problem, but like No, totally in favor of those. I think another good example of like cautionary tales is Hong Kong. 'Cause they had their own legal and economic and immigration systems, but, Hmm.

China's like tick backs. It's under China, so. Yeah. Then there's, I think this is, is a really great example is the, the special economic zone that was shut up. Set up, shut up. That was set up in Shenzhen in China that just revolutionized China and it's. It's, it's hard. So they, they offered regulatory and economic freedoms, but they did things that only China could do.

Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm probably gonna flub my attempt to very succinctly summarize this, but it used to be before this zone was set up that people couldn't just up and move from their local villages to work anywhere. And what changed with Shenzhen is that suddenly they were allowed to go work there and this enabled this massive floating working population that would sweep into Shenzhen and work and often like live in company towns, but on a sort of migrant labor basis.

So their kids would stay at home with their parents and they would just work. It to the point of, as we know from like the Foxconn suicide nets and everything, they'd worked to the point of like their minds breaking, but make a ton of money that they would never make it home in their local village and go home every year for New Year's, and then eventually just go home to their families and like survive.

You know, like go back to life. But it enabled these huge, like labor to sort of slosh around and respond to demand. And I, I think it's really interesting, it's an example of, of China using targeted immigration in its own way to sort of get value out of a population that wasn't really valuable to it before because they were basically taking sus subsistence farmers and subsistence families and turning them into slave slaves.

Yeah, like the, the, the force that enabled. Sort of apple to, to become apple, but also apple to make China into the industrial powerhouse that it became during that period. And if you're interested in this, I think there's this author that wrote about how apple and China sort of rose together. He recently

Malcolm Collins: enslaved the Chinese people.

Simone Collins: I mean, kind of. Yeah. And then also

Malcolm Collins: there's gone from the region, even though they should have a long time ago due to, you know, risks and their, and they're freaking out over trump's tariffs and everything. They don't have a plan. And everyone told them, get outta China, get outta China, get outta China, get outta China.

Get outta China.

Simone Collins: And they're trying. And, and apparently the, the the journalist who wrote this book upon interviewing many people actively working at Apple, he thinks they're delusional. But Apple is actively trying to shift a ton of its production now to India. And while he thinks that they're, they are being way overly optimistic about how quickly they can shift over they are very.

Intent on shifting away. India is our friend, China is not. I know. And they're trying, I'm just saying they're trying Malcolm. So give them some credit. Not that we are huge. Apple stands I mean, I freaking love my mouth. Yeah. Whatever.

Malcolm Collins: Let Apple crumble. Right. But no, but I mean, I think America should, should always try to be growing ties with India.

And India should work to drop its stupid neutrality thing. Neutrality thing. India is obsessed. Oh. With trying to be neutral. They're so in global power. Chicago, China's right there. What do you want them to do? No, no, no, no, no, no. They, they, they, I mean, they're anti-China and neutral. Yeah. Like for example, they bought a ton of Russian oil during the Ukraine conflict.

Right? Like they,

Simone Collins: they need the oil. Wait,

Malcolm Collins: during the, the, during the communist versus capitalist saying of the, the, the, that period, they never really became a client of the us mm-hmm. They always tried to play the US and the SSR off each other. And while it sounds smart, look at where you are now, Andy.

It clearly hasn't worked out for you, you know, choose a side. Mm-hmm. Yeah. America will work with you and China will turn you. Well, it is not great what China does to the people who try to befriend China.

Simone Collins: I mean, yeah, I. Anyway these, these are just some of the examples, but I think we're gonna see a lot more of this.

So, as demographic collapse plays out, even though immigration is not the answer, people are totally gonna turn to immigration and, and we should be exploiting that to our advantage. So how do you become an IT girl? Population and people are saying, how do

Malcolm Collins: you become an IT girl population? What's your think?

Yeah. How do you become

Simone Collins: a that girl? Well I think the big things is create jobs, generate tax revenue by making money, buy from the local economy, build infrastructure and produce useful products like agriculture, like develop the area. And I, I think, you know, doing things like that. Would be great.

That's why we're so obsessed with building a no holds barred medical research community that brings in medical tourism, that brings in academic researchers that sort of becomes this essential place for the, the wealthy and resourced to get experimental medical procedures that they can't get anywhere else.

That, that, that fosters academic research. But I mean there are lots of different specialties you can have that do that. And also just becoming entrepreneurial and, and knowing how to generate tax revenue and both contribute to and hire from the local economy. I mean like obviously one way to generate tax revenue is to make money yourself, but another way to generate tax revenue is to.

Bring jobs to a population. You know, sort of have this, like, if you build your fiefdom and then there's these villages around you that are, that are selling to you and buying from you, then you know, the, the country benefits even more, or the larger area that's attracting you benefits you even more.

So I think that's a really big thing, but that it's not just about being attractive. And I think this is an equally important part of this equation that people need to be looking at and talking about. That they're not talking about, which is what do you do when there's a regime change? What do you do about your personal safety and what do you do when these countries can no longer handle basic things, like not only security, but also maintaining infrastructure?

Well, I mean if you look at

Malcolm Collins: what's happening in in Peru right now, people are like Amish and Mennonites are destroying the Peruvian, Amazon, and stuff like that, right? Like. There. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like the, you know, deforestation claims and stuff, right? Like

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: If you, if you let the wokes get too much power, you gotta run again.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It's, yeah. And, and you see, you wanna, you wanna choose. I, so I don't know how much you can choose or, or predict the continued friendliness of an area. Probably the, the more isolated you are in an area and the less desirable that area is gonna be. Like, we've always had this theory that if we were going to build a, a fiefdom or a city state or, or a charter city, it would be somewhere that's not desirable.

That that isn't gonna be where suddenly people are like, okay, now it's mine. You've developed it. Now I'm gonna

Malcolm Collins: take it. Yeah. I mean that's why we were looking at SARC in, in the Isle of Man, these are areas where you can actually do a degree of farming, but it requires technological intervention. Right.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And they're not like oil rich. They're not. They're not, you know, there, there are not huge reasons why people are gonna wanna go there for natural resources. So that's, I think that's also really important. Or surrounded

Malcolm Collins: by unstable governments that are gonna change their mind in a day.

Simone Collins: They're also more defensible.

You're less likely to have like, roving gangs because they're literal islands. So the island part is good though. I, I, I like even more. I mean, Canada's is attractive in so far as. Aside from maybe interest in oil or logging, like there's just not that much. You know, de desire to, to settle there, I think.

But I, I think a lot of it is if you can control your own energy production and defense, you are in a much better position than just a group that happens to be very economically productive. Does that make sense?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no, no, no. I completely agree. You've gotta eventually get to energy production and defense.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Well, and I'm hoping that small scale nuclear just becomes a thing. And so just, you know, well your compound is gonna have its little reactor and you're fine. You don't need to depend on,

Malcolm Collins: you know. Yeah, I agree.

Simone Collins: And I think when, when we look someday, we will turn our eyes again to investing in companies and technologies that enable sovereignty from a technological standpoint.

So like AI systems or other systems that enable any independent group that decides to organize and settle land. To like, with a lot of help, like maybe with the help of drones and a couple of types of robots and a bunch of ai like sort of preloaded to help to set this up. Like a kit. Yeah, a kit to set up small scale nuclear septic systems.

Like a, a, a well insulated settlements, maybe connected by tunnels, things like that, that like just will work pretty much anywhere. And then some permaculture that works at the local environment. Like I, I really wanna invest in technologies like this because as much as I appreciate what AI dors are attempting to do to like.

Prevent things from happening. Like the more we can enable people to live off the grid successfully in communities and be independent and take care of each other the, the, the more I think humanity, sovety, we're gonna be able to

Malcolm Collins: build and safety. Yeah. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So I think that's, that's really important.

Malcolm Collins: I'm so excited you brought this to everyone's attention. Simone. This is a Mennonite fascinating topic. Because it, it did you read about where this was happening in Korea, by the way, because I had mentioned that in Korea they're doing this a lot more where. Oh no. So one of the phenomenons in Korea is they keep doing these programs to try to get people to new regions, because obviously they have this massive depopulation problem.

Simone Collins: Oh no. Yeah, no, no. This is also happening in Italy, Greece, Switzerland. But this is for like internal citizens, so it's less interesting to me.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, where they'll change what they're offering people to get them to move to a new part of Korea and then everybody moves there and then they'll change what they're offering again.

And then all the people who just moved to the new region moved to wherever the best benefits were. Oh, so it's, it's,

Simone Collins: it's as if we as a couple had like done startup Chile, but then we moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma, but then stayed there for the requisite year and then move to like somewhere.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Just wherever else the next incentive.

Whoever's offering the best benefits of story, just incentive chasers.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I, but I bet there will be those. Like just sort of you could call them like mercenary it girl populations that just like go to the highest bidder at any given time.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And they're just like, oh, we'll be high popul, you know, we'll have a ton of kids and we'll just go to whoever is giving us the best benefit at the time.

And that's, that's what we're seeing in Korea right now. I almost wonder

Simone Collins: if you could kind of think of Jews as that kind of population that like. A, a lot of countries had, if by

Malcolm Collins: benefits, do you mean least killing them, I guess?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, kind of. I mean, there are various ways to look at this, Malcolm. I mean, also like, maybe the best benefit we're gonna get from various city states is like, we won't and we won't even

Malcolm Collins: kill you.

I

Simone Collins: know, but like, I don't know that there's the fun timeline and there's the dark timeline. Not, not to be

Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, I, I absolutely hear you. So I. Yeah. I, well in Korea, a a a lot of people know that we, we did an episode on this. When I first saw this number, I was like, this is wild.

One in four men in rural Korea has married a, a, a non-Korean woman. Mm. In who's married. Like, is there, is there a

Simone Collins: big gender differential or is it just that like all the women are choosing to be single and women are

Malcolm Collins: choosing to be single and, and, and overly picky in Korea and men are just like, okay, I'll marry a foreigner.

And that is how the Korean population is replacing. I mean,

Simone Collins: okay. Maybe you're not giving women the benefit of the doubt though, because one of the big issues in Korea and in other countries that have developed more quickly than

Malcolm Collins: Western companies, these, these men are more misogynist,

Simone Collins: more, yeah, more misogynistic in that they.

Have sort of double standards for women. Like yeah, we're gonna be a dual income household, but also you're gonna do all the child rearing. Right? Yeah. Which is, is not, you know, so I mean, of course they're gonna go to women who are willing to do that, but those women who are doing that also aren't gonna be as educated and aren't going to make that money.

So I guess that

Malcolm Collins: makes sense. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, I, it's not all on the men. It's, it's on everyone. It's, it's on an unfortunate, you're so kind and magnanimous,

Malcolm Collins: Simone. Magnanimous is a good word. So what are we doing tonight? Warmed up. Panang. You made it great. Pineapple this

Simone Collins: time. Pineapple this time. Oh.

Malcolm Collins: Go heavy on the pineapple, but cut it smaller than in the way you'd normally cut it so we could get, do you want it

Simone Collins: confetti small or do you want it like, not confetti small,

Malcolm Collins: just like a quarter, the size of those giant chunks. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And what would I want for, I definitely do not want that rice again.

Whatever that rice was even made. Oh, no,

Simone Collins: because I froze a bunch of it. I know. I just, I, you kept talking to the journalist and I just kept slicing and zesting lemons and it just kept going into the rice cooker. It just didn't stop.

Malcolm Collins: I thought it wasn't that bad.

Simone Collins: I tried some. It's fine. No, it is

Malcolm Collins: that bad. If, if you want to eat it, you can eat it.

If you want me to eat something, I could just eat the pang directly or we can try dumpling. I

Simone Collins: have rice. I, I guess I just have to throw away. It's sad.

Malcolm Collins: Well give, give me other rice. Okay. Or, or maybe it will taste good with something other than panang, but right now it just tastes like ultra limine.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It, it, yeah.

It's good for you Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: But we could try like dumplings or something with panang I think would work really well.

Simone Collins: Oh, I have rice. I have other rice.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Plain rice. That works. Okay. Alright. You made great pinning by the way. And when you reheat it also put in a bit more spice. Yeah, obviously we were trying to make it bland for the journalists.

Simone Collins: I mean, Germany's not known for,

Malcolm Collins: we told him that we're glad that German people are going extinct. So although he,

Simone Collins: he, I think he maybe identifies more as Swiss 'cause he talked about growing up in Switzerland, but also like Swiss food. Do you remember Swiss food? It was like, it was not good. What flavor of bland do you want?

Do you want fish flavor of bland or do you want like bland?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Oh my god.

Simone Collins: That was, that was a thing.

Malcolm Collins: The bland police.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, don't, don't be too loud and don't you dare. We got in trouble so many times. Not think about doing your laundry on a Sunday. No. No. Do you

Malcolm Collins: remember we kept having people call like on me for laughing too loud.

Like in my room, someone just

Simone Collins: knocked on our hotel room 'cause they were like. You shouldn't. They called the management.

Malcolm Collins: They're like, stop laughing. You're, you're laughing too loud. Yeah. And I was like, what the heck are you the saddest country on earth? Yeah. No, don't, don't

Simone Collins: laugh. Don't do laundry on Sundays.

Don't.

Malcolm Collins: But I think this show's like who we are as a family. It's not like you're beating your wife too much.

Simone Collins: You're

Malcolm Collins: laughing. I was like, what kind

Simone Collins: of delicate snowflake do you kind, do you have to be, to not handle noise? Like, are these just all extremely like sensory sensitive artists? I, I, it's a really struggle.

No,

Malcolm Collins: no, no, no, no. I don't say, I think it's that they, they hate other people being happy. I, I do not think it's a noise thing.

Simone Collins: Weigh in in the comments if you understand why it is that Swiss people hate fun.

Malcolm Collins: Why? Why do they hate? Why do they hate the fact that that Malcolm poor little Malcolm here just laughs and laughs and they say, you can't laugh like that.

You laugh too loud, you stupid American. And I say, well, you're stupid because I'm having fun and you're gonna die alone. And sad. Sorry. Maybe that's a.

Simone Collins: I mean,

Malcolm Collins: whatever. All right. They make their watches, by the way,

Simone Collins: just in terms of good food, you need to know this, although you'll, you'll never watch it.

There's literally a genre on Instagram, like there are multiple accounts that have a lot of likes, like a lot like one post will get 320,000 likes. Who knows how many views are getting the only shows people going around to buffets and often like office buffets, but also random buffets. Wedding buffets in South Korea and just filling their plate.

Oh, buffets in South Korea? No, hold

Malcolm Collins: on. That's different.

Simone Collins: I've had

Malcolm Collins: wedding buffets in

Simone Collins: South Korea. Red buffets, wedding buffets, work office buffets. Oh yeah. Yeah. And it just, it just goes from like Trey to Trey and then you just see a hand loading up a plate and you are just like, it is, it is a good genre, like of all the.

Random. You know, there's the restock, there's the buffets

Malcolm Collins: have like a huge problem when you're in Korea. Oh. Which is that They over, so the Korean people are a thrifty bunch. Okay. And so what this means is that when they go to all you can eat buffets, there are specific meals that they know cost more to make.

And so buffets will always load up on these. And a lot of these are like big crab meals. So it's like everything at the buffet is ignored. But this one thing that like all the Koreans recognize is the best cost to stomach space ratio. At the buffet and everyone's just getting that, and I'm like, come on guys.

It's like defeats the purpose of a buffet.

Simone Collins: Well, the, the Instagram genre, I assure you, they just go to every single tray and load up a little bit. So you get to see everything. They label everything. It all looks amazing.

Malcolm Collins: You are an absolutely princess. And by the way, if you were wondering, I was, I was cleaning out the cracks on my mouse.

It was my little. Thing here for, for, for doing folks. Is that, is that

Simone Collins: really what the people need to see Malcolm? Well,

Malcolm Collins: that's why I was looking down. They're probably wondering why is he looking down and my mouse was getting dirty, so I wanted to, to clean it.

Simone Collins: I mean, I'm in favor of a clean mouth. I love that our kids are hooked on toothbrushes right now.

I never want that to be a fight. Yeah. Anyway, okay. I love you. Yes. Goodbye.

Malcolm Collins: You are amazing. Bye. Good day. Good day, good day. You retard. Okay, let's. News for me. Oh yeah. It was just that. Well, vibe Camp is four weeks away. If we wanted to, if I wanted to drive down to Maryland again are we driving up to Maryland? Maryland is below us, sweetheart. Marin's right next to DC

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. New York's above us.

Malcolm Collins: Geography You can too. On the longest day of the year.

That sounds great. You can't buy it's most evil to us

Simone Collins: with our reverse seasonal affective disorder. Always For me, some are solstice, I'm like. This is the Evil day Winter solstice. I'm like, no, it's only gonna get longer from here. But it's a beautiful, blessed day.

Malcolm Collins: They say jump into solstice. Rituals, musical battles, impromptu debates on AI philosophy, folk dance, handcrafts, and mind expanding sounds, sounds, childhood.

It's so all of it oriented around can, connecting with others, wandering around strange paths of the soul. Mm-hmm. Meme and myth collide and something new and magical will be bored. Oh, there's also recreational waterboarding. Oh, I bet ALA will be doing that.

Simone Collins: Do you think so? Oh, I, she's five camp because I thought, I mean, she's gonna be in less online.

She was at Vibe Camp last year, but I

Malcolm Collins: didn't like talk to her much because it felt like trying to walk up to like the main celebrity of the red. Yeah. No, she's busy and important. Yeah. Oh no. Very busy and important. No, she's always like, open with us, but she is, you know, a lot of people have demands on her time.

Oh, and who else did I meet the last time I went is I ended up playing board games, A tabletop game

Simone Collins: with Robin Hanson. Yeah, Robin Hanson and Friends and company.

Malcolm Collins: So, but

Simone Collins: that was two years ago, Malcolm. I don't think he went last year.

Malcolm Collins: I'm not even, that involves

Simone Collins: crowds of people and being outside.

Malcolm Collins: What if somebody who things we don't talks to me or touches me, like, I definitely don't wanna risk making a friend. You know, it would be

Simone Collins: unfavorable. And there is a lot of touching at Vibe Camp. There's a lot of like, do you remember like, there was like stretching, sparring? Yeah. A lot of, just, a lot of touchy, touchy, feeling, mystical kind of stuff.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, these are people very into indulging in alternative outlets for their sexual desires that they contextualize as non-sexual or adjacent to sexual, but not passing sexual norms within the community. And I, I, I've, I've always found that to be super gross. You, somebody's welcome to my c childhood.

It's just a cuddle party or something. It's like, mm-hmm. How is that not infinitely worse than just. Having sex.

Simone Collins: Well imagine though, and just, just how toxic it was for me to be raised in an environment like that where, oh, explain. I was, well, I was like raised in an environment where cuddling and all of this was like really normalized and I was fully convinced that none of it had any sexual insinuations that nudity, cuddling.

All of that was like 100% just natural and that it wouldn't. Wouldn't confuse people.

Malcolm Collins: Wait, so did you ever go to like a cuddle party? Would you ever have indulged in that?

Simone Collins: There were instances in groups of people where like everyone was cuddling and I'm like, I guess I have to like, snuggle in, you know, or like, yeah.

And, and, and then, and then this led to people getting the wrong idea about me and like, it just, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't produce good results. I don't like it. Also, I don't like touching people, so like, these are very from stand. So you're stand glad you get to live

Malcolm Collins: with me. Who's like,

Simone Collins: not my bag.

Yeah. All

Malcolm Collins: right,

Simone Collins: shall we?

Malcolm Collins: Alright. Now what is the interesting thing you're going to say? I read you the

Simone Collins: hook and you were like, that sounds good. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: great.

Simone Collins: Let's go. So, all right. Jesus.

Toasty, what are you doing?

In this thought-provoking episode, Simone and Malcolm delve into a complex historical and cultural analysis of why major Catholic immigrant groups in the United States have been associated with organized crime. They explore various factors, including the influence of Catholic Church teachings, the role of family structures, and cultural adaptations that have shaped these criminal organizations. The discussion also touches on historical and contemporary examples, the nature of moral accountability, and comparisons with other religious and ethnic groups. Join us as we attempt to untangle these intriguing connections and understand the broader social implications.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I'm excited to be with you today. Today we are going to be asking the question of what makes Catholics such a criminal population? Why is the Catholic soul drawn to criminality? And if you. Are confused by what I mean by this.

What I am saying is if you look at major immigrant groups throughout American History that started large scale criminal networks you are looking at the Irish mob. I. A Catholic group, the Italian mafia, a Catholic group, and modern groups like MS 13 a Latin American, Catholic Group,

Simone Collins: ms. Oh my, I didn't even think about that.

Oh, wow.

Malcolm Collins: In fact the only other immigrant population that I can think of that was able to set up a, a large and persistent criminal network that was not Catholic was. Perhaps the Russian mob, but the Russian mob was never as big as the mob or the mafia or even MS 13. So as, as an immigrant

Simone Collins: class, right?

Malcolm Collins: As an immigrant class, we're not including, right, because I'm

Simone Collins: thinking about like the, the Akua are falling apart. The Yakuza

Malcolm Collins: never established a large foothold in the United States. No, they

Simone Collins: did

Malcolm Collins: not.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Even when I went to AI to ask it about this, because I was like, maybe AI will know something about this.

Like it must have some great counter examples to these Catholic groups and keep up. Catholics are a minority of the American population. Even still, they're only like 22%. Right? And historically they were not big. We've pointed this out before, but even during the revolution in the United States, they were around 1.5% of the population.

And even in the state that is sort of as the Catholic State, Maryland, they were only around 13% of the population. So what's is it

Simone Collins: that the, that the Catholic Church itself teaches them bureaucratic organization, like how to build a hierarch functional? We'll, we'll get

Malcolm Collins: in, we will get into that. So the only a large or even remotely large non-Catholic immigrant.

Organized crime organization able to find were the Chinese tongs. So they emerged in the late 19th century in Chinatowns, particularly in New York and San Francisco as mutual aid societies for Chinese immigrants, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But obviously like you haven't heard of the tongs, so they're, they're not quite as big.

Right? Yeah, I've

Simone Collins: heard of the

Malcolm Collins: triad.

Simone Collins: Remember,

Malcolm Collins: but the triad never really set up here. Then you have my favorite one was I didn't know that there was a Jewish mob called Murder Inc. There was specifically, well, a little on the

Simone Collins: nose.

Malcolm Collins: I, it's a little on the nose, right. So, they specialize in carrying out contract killings and carried out between 400.

Well, what do you know, thousand orders in the 1930s. I guess that makes sense. You

Simone Collins: know, when people are like, you know, A plus plumbing co. I mean, yeah, be straightforward about what you're selling.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I was like, I was like, this is, this is a, a, a great counter example. And then I read more about Murder Inc.

And, and No Murder Inc worked for the Italian Mafia. They were, they were set up it seems, even by the mafia itself. Before, why would the outsource to

Simone Collins: Jews for contract killing just 'cause they didn't, they didn't want it in the family Like that made it too awkward.

Malcolm Collins: I think maybe Jews were just better at it.

I can see Jews being uniquely good at contract killing. Nothing about, I mean, just look at, look at how good a job they did was the, was the pager exploder thing in? Oh

Simone Collins: gosh. Right? Yeah. They get the job done. That's true. Need be

Malcolm Collins: secretive about something like this. I can see, you know, a, a, a cultural specialization.

Again, this is not saying, I know.

Simone Collins: I feel like, so these days if someone were like, Simone, and you just hire someone to kill someone. I mean, I've heard that like people who take hits in Mexico are taking them for like 50 bucks. I feel like that's the opportunity. It's just yolo down arbitrage. You wanna import country?

Well, I mean more frugal people. Malcolm. I mean, you don't wanna frugal.

Malcolm Collins: I love, I don't think I can. I can, I can't afford a Jew to kill someone. Oh wait, it's your, wait. It's your whole point here that you're afraid that a Jew is gonna overcharge you. Is is, that sounds costly.

Simone Collins: Inc. They're like incorporated.

They have to, you know, they're paying taxes, they're gonna, you know, charge me extra for that. You know, their accounting system, you know, their, their annual filings over. Yeah. I could just find, you know, a very desperate Mexican who already does $50 contract killings and like.

Malcolm Collins: Go

Simone Collins: for it.

Malcolm Collins: I absolutely love you.

So you are so, by the way, this is not like we don't have anything against Jewish people. Like this is just, or Mexicans. I just, I

Simone Collins: I, I watched this really depressing YouTube video on contract killings in Mexico and was like shocked at the price of human life.

Malcolm Collins: They gotta get their

Simone Collins: act together. I don't know, man.

You're saying

Malcolm Collins: we should move to Mexico or we will be able behind. I'm not saying we should

Simone Collins: move to Mexico. I'm just saying if someone put a gun to my head and said I needed to hire a contract killer and get some something done quickly. I'd probably go to a Mexican.

Malcolm Collins: So the, the, the, the question comes from all this, and I really tried to play with AI to see if AI could think of anything.

Okay. Why is it, and, and I I have a number of hypothesis around why this may be. Why is it that predominantly not just the predominant criminal organizations in the United States were Catholics, but every large scale Catholic, immigrant wave into the United States created a large scale criminal organization that those three waves were the only large scale Catholic immigrant waves into the United States.

Yeah, the Irish and the Italians. Then the Hispanics those are the only ones you know. So every time they came, they also set this up. This isn't to say that there wasn't a German Catholic wave, and I think there was a. French Catholic wave, but they, and there was a a Canadian Catholic immigrant wave, but all of these were fairly small, so they don't really matter in terms of studying this phenomenon.

Mm-hmm. So what are your thoughts before I go into this, if you're gonna make any guesses?

Simone Collins: I'm just guessing that exposure to a large functional bureaucracy and organization. That included management of people and, and all of that may have been the equivalent to giving someone an MBA in entrepreneurship, or at least like organization creation in a way that mm-hmm.

Other religious. Experiences simply didn't, and people didn't go to college really on, on mass at all until very recently. So you were able to do what you were exposed to, and the vast majority of people were not exposed to scenarios in which non immediately related people did business together, except for in the Catholic church.

'cause even Protestant churches, it was like, okay, well this is your. Your preacher and their, you know, well

Malcolm Collins: keep in mind that most of the Catholic crime networks were family based.

Simone Collins: They were, they were, but they still organized in a much more hierarchical and functional fashion. So I,

Malcolm Collins: I think that that is a huge part of it.

So, first the family emphasis or the Catholic Church as we've pointed out? No, no. The, the Catholic Social Structures. Okay. So if you look at. Like the backwards people who were descended from which we talk about in various episodes, they were significantly more violent than any of the Catholic immigrant ways.

They were much quicker to jump to murdering their neighbors. They were much quicker to as we've pointed out, a common thing was in their culture was you have sharpened nails was easier to pull out people's eyeballs. Like they were very, oh, those were

Simone Collins: the people who enjoyed fighting. But yeah, I mean, they were generally seen almost as akin to savages like.

They were a minute, like a wild animal problem. Yeah. Whereas complaints about Catholics were like, oh, they're bringing all this crime and they're taking jobs and there are too many kids. But like, it wasn't like, these people are rabid raccoons, please get them away from me. It was a very different kind complaint.

Do not, it's like, it's like having a bear walk by your house. It's like Exactly. Yeah. Very, very different. You know, disdain for both bias against both, but different flavors.

Malcolm Collins: Well, so what we see here, I think, is that this other group which was also not too dissimilar from the Western Americans or Western style Americans mm-hmm.

That, that settled like the Midwest and the, sorry, the far west of the United States. These groups were much were existed in much tighter clans than the Catholic groups did. Their, their family clan based structure didn't go that far outside of immediate family. Mm-hmm. So there was no, motivation to set up these larger scale criminal networks or no ability to set up these larger scale criminal networks mm-hmm. That Catholics had because of their familiarity with large scale hierarchies. Mm-hmm. And interfamilial hierarchies. So that's one thing. It was just their organizational ability, but it was their, their.

The other issue you had is that when you had violent people with, with violent or rambunctious tendencies it was in the Americas. What you often had them do is go to the, the far west or go to the frontier territory. Hmm.

Simone Collins: They didn't, they didn't prefer to settle in, already settled urban areas.

They

Malcolm Collins: didn't prefer to settle in large cities. Mm-hmm. But Catholics actually overwhelmingly preferred settling in large cities very. Unlike many immigrant groups throughout American history. That's a good point. Yeah. If you look at every one of the Catholic immigrant waves, they settled in major urban environments.

Yeah. Big city. The Irish city. Yeah. The Italians. Mm-hmm. And the Hispanic, New York

Simone Collins: and Boston. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And this. Created an environment where other sort of violent groups would leave cities and go to the frontiers, the Catholics did not. Now, one of the questions could be is why did Catholics become urban specialists within the American context?

And were they just settling around established parishes? Is that it? I think that Catholic culture more broadly is more amenable to urban life than Protestant culture. Specifically if you look at the core difference between Catholic and Protestant culture, it is how do you determine what is true?

Okay? And Catholics would say, well, what is true is a person should spend their entire life studying that thing and then be certified by a central authority so we know who has actually spent their life studying that thing. Yeah. And then the Protestants will say, well. What if the central authority becomes corrupted?

And this is, as we pointed out, the core conflict we had in the United States over COVID, right? Mm-hmm. The progressives were saying, who do you determine that's true?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Trust the scientists. Trust the academics, trust the government. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And the more rural Americans, mostly coming from Protestant groups, said, no, that central bureaucracy could become corrupted.

Mm-hmm. It's better to make these decisions on your own. Mm-hmm. Well, this leads to a much more individualistic framing and not wanting the law. Or the government in your business with the communities that had the more Protestant framings and so they were much more quick to abandon cities for the frontier.

And it is also why, so Catholics concentrated cities, it also made Catholics have more trust for bureaucratic institutions and organizations. You, you see this? Catholics, when they left a violent crime, one of the classic Catholic jobs in the United States was being a cop. You know, the, the stereotype of the Irish cop comes from this.

Harrison, why haven't you called? You know how I worry. I'm giving it up, Maggie. I'm quitting the force. It seems like every time we frame a rich black guy, he's back out on the streets in no time. Not another word of that kind of talk, Harrison Yates. I know you. Framing rich black men for crimes they didn't commit is in your blood.

Wiping that rich, smug smile off their faces is the only thing that puts a smile on yours. You're a good cop, Harrison Yates. You don't have to question that, and you're a good wife, Maggie. Where are you going? I think I've got a little more work to do.

Malcolm Collins: and, and not just that but you also have, even today, Catholics disproportionately in the legal profession and hugely disproportionately on the Supreme Court. As we pointed out, one of the recent Supreme Courts, it was like eight out of.

Nine of them were Catholics. Or, or something like that. Just some insane number when you consider what a small population. Yeah. Like the rest are

Simone Collins: Jewish, which also makes sense. The rest

Malcolm Collins: are Jewish. Yeah. So, so huge degree of, of cultural specialization around bureaucracies. Mm-hmm. Is, is why they did this.

But so, so bureaucratic specialization, urban specialization family networks not being drawn to the countryside. And now what else are you gonna do? The next

Simone Collins: let's form a crime syndicate

Malcolm Collins: is while Catholics. Distrusted or sorry, I had a unique trust of bureaucracies. Mm-hmm. They also had a unique distrust, especially early immigrant waves of government bureaucracies.

And the question is, is why? And it's many majority Catholic countries that produce major US Catholic crime groups had histories of weak or corrupt governance, fostering distrust of legal institutions. Okay. In Southern Italy, particularly Sicily. C Centuries of foreign rules, Spanish bourbon and absent state protection led to the rise of the Sicilian Mafia as a parallel power structure.

This cultural skepticism of authority carried over to the United States for telling and immigrants viewed police and government as extensions of an oppressive system making organized crime, a viable alternative for resolving disputes and gaining power. Honor based

Simone Collins: crime, honor based justice.

Malcolm Collins: But it's not just that.

So I love how this is from an ai, it frames them as being oppressed, but I don't need Catholics to be oppressed to know that Catholics create terrible governments. If you look around the world today, that's why I'm so confused by people like Nick Fuentes who want to turn the US into a, a Catholic like he wants to create, he's a Catholic integralist, which means he thinks the entire world should be ruled under a Catholic this sort of caliphate.

Caliphate. Yeah. But I'm like. Even if you are a Catholic, like if you're a sane person, you must be able to see how much worse Catholic majority countries are to live in than than countries that are ruled by Protestants. If you look at Europe, if you look at Latin America, if you look at like wherever you go, when Catholics are in charge, the country tipping.

Typically is very, very poor very, very corrupt, very, very bureaucratic. The politicians are almost always super distrust and grif. This is just a trend throughout Catholic countries. And so now the question could be like, okay, so I can understand why they distrust bureaucracy when they come into the United States or, or government bureaucracy.

But why do Catholic countries have a tendency to be very, very corrupt and poor? That's an interesting question. Do you have thoughts on that before I go into my theories?

Simone Collins: Theories? Hmm. I mean, I maybe like having large families produces less focus on outward economic production that would support like tax revenue in a, in a city and, and more just there's focus on family, which means that. The area itself doesn't appear to be so wealthy. What, what do you think?

Malcolm Collins: So that's that, that it, part of it is close to something you called there.

It's called amoral. Familial. Oh. And specifically what it means is preference for members of a family or for nepotism. Mm-hmm. Over what is in the best interest of the community. Right. Okay. And Catholic culture produces this much more than other cultures in Latin America, for example.

I would be considered a less moral person for not hiring my incompetent brother into like a government position if I was a leading figure within the government. Mm-hmm. Within my family's own moral framing, which is, yeah. Like, you

Simone Collins: be like you, you, you do how you not Yeah. You,

Malcolm Collins: you're supposed to be there for your, your sibling.

Right,

Simone Collins: right. Instead, yeah. Whereas like in, in our upbringing, that would be seen as, I mean, e even your family is like. You know what? You don't have a job right now. Well, don't come home rabidly, anti-emetic. Yeah. Yeah. They're

Malcolm Collins: like the complete opposite of that. That's so interesting. And, and so the question can be like, well, okay then why is Catholicism like this?

Right? Yeah. Like this is a very weird thing considering it's not like a key part of the faith. And, and Catholic cultures are hugely divergent. You know, whether you're talking about Irish or Italian or Latinamerican, they're very, very different. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Culturally.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But why, why do all of those three cultures feature a degree of amoral, familial?

Simone Collins: I mean, but don't you think just in general? I mean maybe this isn't true. 'cause, I mean, Puritans also had large families and you didn't see this. Necessarily in Puritan culture. No, you, but they also believed in the inherent wretchedness of humans. So, okay, here's what I'm gonna say. It's, it's one the large family, and I think any large family is going to, to a certain extent, be a little bit incestuous.

Look at Elon Musk. He works so much with his family and his brother, right? Like the, they work together a lot. The Kardashians work together. Like, so I think in general, large family, he's

Malcolm Collins: more like a traditional clan based culture. With I,

Simone Collins: they work together. But what's different about Catholicism is like, for example.

Calvinism is like, well, people are wretched like you. You sort of don't give people the benefit of the doubt, whereas Catholicism is all about penance and forgiveness. And so even if someone is a fail son, like it's still kind of your obligation to keep him in the fold and to give him opportunities because we must give him the opportunity to show penance and to, to right the wrongs.

What do you think?

Malcolm Collins: I disagree with that. I do not believe that that's what, what causes it. I, I think theory. What leads to it is actually a cultural evolutionary pressure created, by the way the Catholic Church operates. Hmm. I think that if you look historically, if you go to like older Catholic regions, they were basically ruled by the church.

And the church had a very good system. To prevent a moral familial which was not allowing people in leadership positions to have families or children. Okay. You had the church celibacy, right? This is a core part of Catholicism. Yeah. I would argue that this celibacy of church members, mint that Catholicism didn't need to evolve the same cultural disdain for nepotism that other cultures needed to evolve.

So as Catholic countries secularized, they didn't have the pree evolved disgust. Okay? Because

Simone Collins: they protect it already has an inbuilt protection for nepotism. Meaning that an intrinsic distaste for nepotism wasn't evolutionary, evolutionarily selected for. Exactly in the same way that it was in Protestant cultures where their societal framework didn't have inbuilt protections against nepotism.

Yes.

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I smart. I think that the higher degrees of nepotism came down from not having protection against nepotism. By the way, if you wanna read more on a lot of these series, you're talking about them in the pragmatist Guide Crafting Religion, where we go deeper on this particular topic. Mm-hmm. But I, I just find this topic to be particularly fascinating.

So I think that that is part of what, what, what led to this, I also think that there is less, and this is somewhat to your perspective here, there is less moral accountability in systems that are overly deontological, like Catholic systems can be.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And so there is, right, because

Simone Collins: consequential systems are like, you fail, you're out.

Whereas Deontological, it's like, well, you know, you meant well, you tried all the right

Malcolm Collins: things. You did something that led to the suffering of others, like installing an incompetent family member. You are responsible for the downstream consequences of this. Mm-hmm. Whereas the majority of Catholic cultures would say what matters is if your actions had righteous intent, not the consequences of your actions.

Mm-hmm. And it is very easy to frame helping your idiot family member as a righteous intent instead of the downstream. Consequences of that. And it is also true that this can be used to justify criminality within immigrant populations that feel discriminated against. They're like, well, I'm just trying to help my community.

Which you often saw groups like the Mafia and the Mob, and. Well, some Latin American gangs doing. Mm-hmm. They, they, they do, they are not as dedicated to it as the mafia and the mob were which historically really tried to give back to their community and build you know, charities and, and, and stuff like this.

Mm-hmm. So I think that that's part of it as well is that it's easier to create moral explanations for immoral acts within this framework and still maintain a high degree of status. That was an interesting thing about the, the Protestant cultures that were more rough and tumble as well. Which is if you resulted to criminality was in these cultures, yeah, you would often lose your status.

It was the low status individuals who were into crime, even if you go like the old West or something like that. Whereas, you know, as we see in movie, any movie about like the mafia or the mob or something like that these individuals were highly respected in their communities. Incredibly respected.

In the way that, that like old West Bandits just worked. Hmm. Like old West Bandits may have been romanticized, but they were not. Yeah. Only

Simone Collins: much later too. Yeah. Not at the time.

Malcolm Collins: Were they not romanticized at the time?

Simone Collins: Maybe Bonnie and Clyde, like some famous ones were, but I don't, yeah. I think more of it's a post hoc thing, but maybe I'm wrong.

I could be wrong. I'm often wrong. I'm typically wrong.

Are you asking grog?

Malcolm Collins: Yes, it says old West Bandits were indeed romanticized in their own time. No way. Extent in nature were, were varied. You had media and dime store novels in the, uh mm-hmm. 1860s and seventies. Oh, you had sentiment in some communities, bandits were seen at symbols of resistance against powerful institutions.

And cultural context opposed to war area was turbulent with economic inequality and distrust of centralized power. You.

And they're, they're here saying contemporary sources like the National Police Gazette and Dime novels. The James Boys in Mississippi 1881 show a blend of condemnation and fascination. So yeah, they, they appear to have been romanticized even was in the time, were they the

Simone Collins: school shooters of the past.

Malcolm Collins: This romanticization. I, I, the, I would argue they are much more you do not have about school shooters, comic books being made. Oh, that's fair.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Yeah. You know what,

Malcolm Collins: what these are, we have comic

Simone Collins: books made about any criminals now, like fan fiction? Not really. Actually

Malcolm Collins: this wasn't an underground romanticization.

But the point I'm making is there's a big difference between romanticization and acceptance within. As sort of a, an elite class within society, whereas the, the mob and mafia bosses were seen as more cultural equivalent to the head of a bank or something like that. Not an anti-cultural institution.

Which is really fascinating to me. Interesting thoughts from you, Simone?

Simone Collins: No, keep going. This is enlightening to me.

Malcolm Collins: Well, another thing that we find is familial and communal structures. So I'm, I'm just gonna go a bit diff d deeper into this. Cultures in Catholic majority countries emphasize strong, familial and community ties, which can be exploited for criminal organization.

The Italian American mafia, for example. Readied on blood ties and loyalty based hierarchies modeled on Sicilian traditions. Irish gangs often operated as extended, quote unquote clans with deep community roots. Mm-hmm. MS 13 was less hierarchical draws a sense of brotherhood and shared Salvadorian identity, particularly among war displaced youth.

These cultural traits, loyalty, hierarchy, and collective identity facilitate the organization of cohesion for large scaled criminal enterprises. In contrast. You o other Catholic groups that didn't form organizations like Polish immigrants often integrated into the broader labor movements eg.

Unions rather than forming criminal networks. Now, I think when you read that, then my question is, it's then why don't Mormons create criminal organizations? If that's, so that's,

Simone Collins: I was thinking at the beginning of the episode, like if we're talking about, you know, very good organized groups that get stuff done, it's all about the Mormons.

They do so much more. I.

Malcolm Collins: So you could argue that the early Mormon church, as many communities did, was a criminal organization. This is why people kept chasing them out of their communities. You know, no, they did. I mean, they, I mean, yeah, sure

Simone Collins: they did for, yeah, but I mean, they did. I thought they did it because they thought they were weird, not because they were committing crimes or requiring

Malcolm Collins: Why was Joseph Smith in jail?

Because they had busted up a printing press. Like that was saying bad things about them.

Simone Collins: Okay. But that's more like. You're slandering us, we're gonna vandalize your printing press company, not like nice printing press company. Shame of something happened to it and then like demanding protection money. You know what I

Malcolm Collins: mean?

I, I, it was, it was less shrewd, but it was certainly a criminal act to determined to control and terrorize a local population. You know, so. Was, was in Mormons. They kept being kicked out of communities because what they basically, and, and keep in mind from the perspective of these communities, Joseph Smith was just a guy running a scam, right?

Like his whole thing would've been seen as close to, you know, a snake oil salesman or, you know, reading out of a hat was like a gold tablets and stuff like that. That, that sounds like a con artist, especially if he's occasionally pulling money from local community members busting up presses that say bad things about him.

And, and then. If you look at the Mormon territories they had incidents of even just like murdering people who went through their territories. Yeah. 'cause they weren't sure if they were, they, they had you know, armed conflicts was the United States government. Yeah. We're

Simone Collins: talking massacres. E even of.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. No, no. They did a lot of really bad stuff. Yeah. And what, the reason I mention all of this is Mormonism doesn't subdivide into hierarchies as effectively is 'cause solecism subdivides into hierarchies where the, the church would have to decide to do something criminal itself. For Mormonism to do something.

Criminal was the only subdivided hierarchies. Really work was in Mormonism is the giant MLM scams that are run throughout the church. Okay. And, and very commonly run if, if you keep in mind, but they just don't break with the church's central teaching. So they're, they're okay to do. Whereas you know, the Catholic church.

Even was in these time periods, would've been telling the mob and the mafia when they went to confessions. You know, you should really stop doing this. And the mob and the mafia guys would be like, yeah, but I can just confess. Right? And they're like, well, I mean technically, but the, the teacher doesn't want you doing this.

And they'd be like, well, I'm helping the community, you know, the, the society at large doesn't care about us. And I would assume that some, you know, given that we know, you know, the Jesuits. Who promoted things like communist revolutions and stuff like this. I wouldn't be surprised if some were condoned by local parishes.

So I had this moment of, you know, I should probably look into this a bit more, and it is so much worse than I thought. , So the Vatican Bank, , has been linked to mafia activities through allegations of money laundering. A prominent case involves Robert Calvi, known as God's Banker, who is closely tied to the Vatican Bank, found dead under Black fires bridge in London, 1982.

Investigated and suggested the Sicilian mafia, particularly the colon. Clan used Vatican Bank to launder money. Journalist Mariah Anton RA's book, Laina de Mafia. Details how Cal Valley's activities. Connected the mafia and to Vatican financiers. Then you have Michelle Sonta, another financier with Vatican Bank ties was implicated in selling over 1 billion in counterfeit securities to the Gambino crime syndicate in New York Post on Exclaim.

That Sonata acted as a go-between for the Vatican Bank and the Mafia. Though there is not conclusive without further evidence. , Then you have Archbishop Paul McCarson. Markus, , president of the Vatican Bank from 1971 to 1989 who was accused of facilitating financial dealings, was mafia linked figures.

then, The, the Mafia using Catholic rituals to bolster its legitimacy, often with the support from local clergy. For instance, the mafia members have been documented leading processions with Statue of the Virgin Mary, or financing religious events to project an image of piety and community leadership in southern Italy, particularly Sicily and Calabria, these practices were common until recent church reforms.

Malcolm Collins: Even if the Central Catholic Authority would've said, no, don't do this. You're not gonna get that as much was in Mormonism. You're gonna get much more pushback and much more, Hey, don't do this. Good heaven. Well, and it also wouldn't have made sense to other US cultural groups. Again, think about something like, you know, the, the, like backwards cultural group, right? Mm-hmm. The idea that one family would like achieve so much status that they were now policing a bunch of other families that family would suddenly have a target on their back by everyone else in the community. I. Because they think they're better than everyone else.

Whereas with in Catholic culture, you, you wouldn't necessarily reflexively everybody, let's turn on whoever is the strongest right now. Mm-hmm. You would see that reflexively within backwards culture. So I think that that's another thing that allowed these networks to build up

Simone Collins: mm, much

Malcolm Collins: larger than the repercussions

Simone Collins: were very different.

Malcolm Collins: Repercussions were very different. And also something to keep in mind is a lot of these groups had existing organizations that like them in the countries that they came from the mom and the, so they're just

Simone Collins: replicating a business model that they were. Very familiar with to begin with. Right. The model that

Malcolm Collins: was made necessary by the incompetence of Catholic governments.

If you have a particularly corrupt and incompetent government, you're going to be much more likely to try to build a shadow or counter government. Mm-hmm. And particularly in the cases of the Sicilians and the Irish it wasn't even their own government that needed to be incompetent because they were ruled by other people who had conquered it.

Simone Collins: Hmm. One thing I'm also thinking about is. The, it was a Ethereum, right, who wrote about non-linear ethnic niches, and we did an episode on them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: That a, a really common theme was that this is dirty work that no one else wants to do. Which criminal activity that, that, that's not about right, like no one else wants to do it.

Plus you have you have the ability to exploit cheap or non-paid labor much more easily. Which I could also see like Catholic networks and families and because so much of this was family based, there probably was a lot of unpaid labor. So then you end up creating these moats based on even just those two factors.

Yeah. So that could be it. Plus I imagine like cheap credit, which is another really big factor of this. Yeah, like you're probably getting family support as, as these syndicates expand, for example. Yeah. You're probably getting. Cheap credit, for lack of a better term. I mean, what did the mob do, but often lend money, right?

Like they. To a certain extent even specialized in it collecting. Yeah. Yeah. So, no,

Malcolm Collins: I I think that you're, you're absolutely right here. And I've also noted before in episodes where people say that like, Jews are nepotistic. I'm like, Jews are nowhere nearest nepotistic as Catholics Catholics are by, did call the United

Simone Collins: States.

What, what was the name of the family structure you talked about? Like. Non amoral. Amoral. Familial, amoral. Familial. Okay. But,

Malcolm Collins: but, but well, this is the interesting thing, will, people would be like, yeah, but Catholics are more nepotistic to family members and Jews are more nepotistic to any Jew. And I'm like, that's just not true.

I, I, I have seen it. It's also

Simone Collins: hard for me to say it's nepotism if it's. Like another Jew instead of a family member. I dunno.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Find nepotism. I would say that something that came in mind is I'm not anti-nepotism. Nepotism to me actually makes a lot of sense. Well that was

Simone Collins: another thing that came up in the discussion of non-linear ethnic networks, was that the nepotism that took place within them.

That is to say that, you know, like the. The, the Thai people would only hire Thai people and, you know, the, the, the nail salon training center started to only train and Thai like they classes, not in English, but what I mean, you, but like the point is, you know, that they're culturally aligned, like it's a smart move.

You don't have to do, no,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. It is not just a cultural alignment, but like why would you not do more vetting on somebody who is culturally more distant from people? It's not

Simone Collins: just the vetting either. I mean, the vetting is pre-done and you have, you have more trust in the vetting, but also there's more of, there's, there's a higher cost.

To, to disappointing the person who hires you because your cousin's reputation is on the line. Your family's reputation is on the line. Like, you're not just disappointing a stranger, your entire family is going to dunk on you forever if you, if you make them look bad.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Which is, important. Yeah. Alright. Well I think we have come to an answer on this. I am really excited I got the chance to talk this through with you. I thought this would be a spicy topic. One of the things that always gets me about this particular topic is why I. Like people would aspire to Catholic majority countries when they live in such poverty and do such a bad job governing like this.

This is something that's, yeah. Well,

Simone Collins: but you know, this is something Dan h Hess wanted to come on the podcast and talk about eventually is, is I. You know, maybe something different than a GDP, you know, that that's focused more on like, how many kids are people having, are, are they family? They have fewer

Malcolm Collins: kids too,

Simone Collins: Latin America.

But now they are, now Catholics are, but historically when you're talking about like in general this impoverishment, I mean they, maybe I

Malcolm Collins: agree with what you're saying, like, like Southern Europe has way fewer the way lower fertility rate than Northern Europe. Like it's. So Latin America has a way lower fertility rate now than than America especially when you control for income.

And, and the question is, is or at least like half of the countries in Latin America are below America now, and the rate's dropping like way faster when you control for income. And the question is, is I. With all of this what, what I just don't understand and, and what I'm pointing out here, is how, like a human living today can look at the consequences of being a Catholic majority country and want to attempt to replicate that.

Which I actually think is one of the reasons why this criminality comes out as well is that when morality is community enforced, it's easy to create alternate forms of morality instead of when morality is self enforced. Mm-hmm. And was in Catholic communities, morality is more community enforced than individually self reinforced?

Simone Collins: Well, I think in any system. When rules or norms are exogenous, that is to say imposed from the outside rather than endogenous. You get lower fidelity and adherence. Like just in general? Yeah, just how when you know you're paid to do a hobby that you used to, like, you don't like it as much, like it just, it's not ideal in my view for anything to be exogenous when you can help it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, and, and I think, well, you know, we have a lot of Catholic fans. I, I suspect one will explain that to us on, on Discord, the disco No school us in the comments also, please like, and subscribe. Yeah. Why? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Like, and subscribing all that, but why the, the drive to, you know, convert people into a religious framework or attempt to create a country under.

A religious framework that in every single modern context has led to poverty and unhappiness in the populations where it is dominant. Like I, I don't Malcolm in in low fertility rates as well. Like I don't get the drive.

One thing I have heard from some Catholics, so this, this could be an explanation here, is it's like the church was infiltrated by a malevolent group that wanted to tear down the Catholic tradition from the inside. But if that's the case, like the core of the Catholic church is the papacy, and if the papacy has been used to destroy the Catholic church, it's sort of self invalidating.

Malcolm Collins: I, I guess what they would say is, well, we're trying to create a new form of Catholicism.

Yeah. I mean, I think

Simone Collins: the, the, the Catholic, the Catholics that are watching this podcast that we talk to at least. Their communities do not at all resemble other Catholic communities that I'm familiar with in the past, and these are strong communities. They are smart. Like I'm like, oh, I'm all like, this let's this, this should be Cat Catholicism now.

These people are amazing. I like it. I want more of them. Let's go. So I, I think that over time the Catholic Church is going to. Shift or you'll have splinter factions. I don't know, but I am totally in favor of at least the Catholics that we know who follow it, trying

Malcolm Collins: to create something. Well, and I think everybody needs to create something new.

So that's not something unique to Catholicism. Mm-hmm. You know, what survives you know, Protestantism, what if it's, what if it's techno puritanism? Right. You know what? Survives of Mormonism is likely gonna need to be something different than what Mormonism looks like today. What? You know what? Yeah. So, so that's not a bad thing, that there is this internal drive for.

The recreation of a Catholic identity around what I'd even call is, is because the way that Catholics approach this is really interesting to me. Like while we're neo traditionalists, IE we take some traditional ideas and we refind them. What Catholics will often do is create new traditions while assigning a false antiquity to them to create things that, well Jews do

Simone Collins: that too, and well Mormons do that too.

Come on Malcolm, we'll make this a Catholic thing.

Malcolm Collins: Well, Jews, Mormons are less focused on the antiquity giving their traditions value. Oh, no. I

Simone Collins: mean, like the Egyptians and the Israelites like that, and the, the, you know, early Native Americans are like, come on, Malcolm. Oh, true, true, true, true. Don't you even

Note here. The reason why I had forgotten that Mormons do this all the time is because when Mormons do it, it's so laughably bad that in my head I assume that like nobody actually believes it. , Whereas when Catholics do this, it's pretty convincing. And so, you know, there's that moment in the where I'm like, oh, this tradition has a lot of antiquity.

Then I look into it and I'm like, oh no, we just made this up. Like 20 years ago, or like a hundred years ago. Um, so it's, it's, it's

not to knock on Mormons.

Simone Collins: not to knock on any of these groups.

I love them all, but

Malcolm Collins: all right. Love you to De Simone. Have a spectacular day. I love you too, Malcolm.

Simone Collins: I cannot begin to tell you how much I look forward to these conversations. Like there's such the motivation for me at the end of the day.

Malcolm Collins: Really, this is exciting. Well, other people look forward to them as well. Isn't that nice?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Cool. Smart people too. Read the comments on some of our videos and I'm.

Just impressed. Quality audience. All smart people. Yeah. Yeah. This is not, this is not normal. YouTube video comments, at least for the videos that I watch that aren't our, well, maybe it's just the ones

Malcolm Collins: of ours that haven't gone viral that you're getting all the nice comments on, and on the viral videos you're getting standard YouTubers.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. There is a little bit of that going on. Yes. All right. You know.

Join Simone and Chance as they delve into the surprising history of sexual norms from the 1920s to the 1950s. They analyze how societal standards have shifted, particularly in terms of public nudity, mutual masturbation among men, and the transition from nudist cultures to more private norms today. The discussion includes various practices such as key parties, public porn viewing, and even sexual behaviors involving animals. Chance and Simone also touch on contemporary issues, such as the impact of the legalization of gay marriage on today's DEI and trans right movements, and how modern technology and societal changes have influenced our views on sex and nudity.

Hello Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today we are gonna be talking about the way that our society used to be. And I don't mean like in Roman or ancient Greece. I'm talking 1950s, 1920s. Much more debauched than it is today. Oh, the areas where sexual norms are tightening rather than loosening.

And we're gonna try to build a model to understand in which areas does sexual norms seem to loosen over time, and in which areas does sexual norms seem to tighten over time? So just to throw you guys in the deep end here, if you're like, wow. Come on. Things couldn't have been that much more sexually loose in like the 1950s.

Well, around that time period, and we'll get to the specifics later in this, around 40% of young men participated in mutual masturbation with other young men. This was normal. If you have four grandparents you're dealing with. What? Like that. Oh, why did you to take it there, chance? One of them did this

given that all of you have four great-grandfathers, that means there is an 87% chance that one of your great-grandfathers participated in something like this.

I am gay.

In today's society, basically, no guy does this.

This is like, no, only for gay guys. Okay.

I don't even know if it's for gay guys. I don't know, man. Well,

and this is something of you're like, wait. Is this continuing to happen? It happened to me when I was going through with an AI asking like, where has sexual norms tightened? Yeah. And it's like, well, of course, a long time ago they used to have public showers in schools for the boys and the girls.

And now it's all private stalls. And I totally

remember in my high school gym, there were, I remember this too. I was like, what? Yeah, they got rid of that. Well, I, we never, one, we all changed for gym class, but we didn't show each other. Like we didn't, we changed very carefully and there were showers and I always wondered why, because we never No, no, no,

no.

I remember when they had that in my school, they had that in every school I ever attended. I never once used a public shower despite it being in every school I ever attended. And the somebody could be like, wait. What it's like because they were already, these norms were already changing within our generation that I knew it was weird to be naked around other boys my age.

And I didn't want to do that even though the facilities were still structured that way. And a lot of the schools that are doing these changes now are saying, well, if we leave them the old ways, no one will use them. Right. And that's

fair because no one used them at my school. It was wasted space.

Yeah. No one used them at my school anymore.

They were from like a previous era where and I've seen shows like apparently this was the thing that happened at one point in human history. And I think that if you were on like maybe the football team or something, there might have been some norms around using them. Like if you got like really sweaty and gross in whatever sport you were doing.

Maybe they used public showers, but even then, I can't imagine they used them in the girls' rooms. Had you, had you ever seen a group of girls using the public showers at the same time?

So on swim team, we did all use the shower, but we never took our clothes off. We showered in our swimsuits.

Oh, fascinating.

Yeah. And that's why it's,

it's really weird with that one. Like there are stories of that one trans swimmer just having their junk out in the women's locker room. The locker room. Yeah. That's 'cause dude, like we didn't even have our tits out in the, in the locker room. Like it was just the most you'd ever seen was the most you'd ever see out there.

Or the what? Lindsay? Lindsay Thomas, right?

Leah Thomas.

Leah Thomas. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. So

this individual for people don't know this trans swimmer, they didn't have bottom surgery when they were doing all this. They were flashing underage girls in, in a swim swimming locker. Yeah. But

also like, at least where I went to school in California, which is pretty progressive, no one in the girls locker room ever took off their clothes.

Right. But, but the point, so even in camp, when we were in camp together, all this like, you know, there's all these like eighties. Movies of one, like locker rooms and like, oh gosh, look, her body's so perfect. But also like, men looking at sleepovers that teenage women were having as they were taking off their clothes and changing for bed and oh my God, look at like how hot they're no, the, like, if I saw someone else changing clothes and I did exactly the same thing, you would change under a sweatshirt period.

I, I've never seen a, a peer put on a bra, for example, I've seen a, a peer put on a bra under a sweatshirt like a hundred times and I've done it myself a hundred. But like that's,

I don't know. I, this, this is, this is fascinating. Why are these social norms becoming more conservative in regards to, to, yeah, I guess when you, yeah, when

you think about it.

Yeah. I didn't think about the fact that these eighties movies I watched had all these naked teens and that I. Would never think of exposing myself in front of my peers. No, I would, I would be

so weird. I remember, yeah. I went to my dad and, we'll, we'll talk about these, these, these naked sweat lodges and stuff like that, that used to be common.

I went to my dad with one of the, I was like, this is weird. Like, you know, I, I don't care that this is like what men do. Like this is weird. And a lot of these institutions just aren't as big as they used to be. But it's not just that, that's not the only area. Another big one. What actually inspired this was a Keisha piece.

This is the, the v tuber who went through this cancellation recently. So I went through a lot of her backlog and one of the episodes I found particularly interesting was on how normalized having sex with donkeys is in the cartia region of Columbia. Like, wait, okay,

who's having sex with, or the donkeys having sex with each other or a human?

Men. Men typically considered that your first sexual partner is a donkey.

Aw. But are you gonna like pick up. Diseases from that.

Apparently all the women don't care, but most women in the region, I would worry,

I would worry, I'd get like some kind of bacterial illness if my husband man, like, I don't care at all that you slept with a lot of women before we married.

But if I'd known that you had stuck your dick in a donkey,

I would have trouble. This is, this is what Colombian women deal with in, in, do they know? Do they know that rare, like know a lot of people were like, this is normalized within our country. What's wrong here? You are destroyed.

This community believed that males would not achieve competence in marriage unless they practice intercourse with a donkey.

The coastal region of Columbia has been known for males making love to donkeys, but I expected this topic to be taboo. Hearing people talking about it so openly and with no shame.

Well, what? They're not learning how

to pleasure a woman.

Like I, I could get it. And I think that like there's some tropes that like, okay, well men should have some kind of sexual encounter before they, you know, have sex with their girlfriend or their wife so that they know how to please a woman and don't like embarrass themselves or like come too quickly.

But this is different. Because they're not learning how to pleasure adopting

about this was, well, look, I can see, look, a lot of regions have gotten that Are rural regions like Wales have gotten this stereotype in the past. It was the common thing about whale. Oh, okay. So what,

what, first you were saying this was what Co Colombian, and now you're saying it's Wales,

but in Columbia it's, it it up until modern times like video cameras being able to go in, it's like, oh, this is a guy who rinse out his donkey.

This is a regular thing in our community. Whales stopped doing this probably about, I don't know, three years ago. Sorry. I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. You're joking. I think about 80 or years ago, or 50 years ago. It probably stopped in Wales. But you know, I'm having some fun with our whale shot audience here.

But you know, and, and you, and this was not just in these countries, it's also in the United States. So this is one of the only paraphilias or fetishes that has decreased in for, in, in commonality within the United States every time. Is this,

I don't know though, because I feel like there's this underground.

Tendency of people to,

we have to fix on this. Like, okay, so if I quote from our book, okay. Kenzie's study back in 1948, this is a mtus guide to sexuality, but who wants to read this? So in 1948 found that 8% of men and 3% of women had had sex with an animal. But with time, these numbers have dropped, was more recent studies showing them to be around 5% and 2% respectively, likely a product of lower access to animals in a more urban society.

Mm-hmm. These numbers are fascinating when contrasted with our survey results, which suggest that only 6% of males and 2% of females are aroused by the idea idea of sex with an animal. If this data is accurate, this indicates that 87% of people who are aroused by the idea of sex with an animal have tried it.

Now, so a few notes here, it used to be almost 10%, so almost one in 10 men in the United States in 1948 had sex with an animal at some point in their life. Okay.

That's a lot. Yeah. Part of what I worry about though, just from like stuff I've seen around on the internet is that a lot of women are intimate with their dogs, but they're

like, it doesn't count.

Well, that's decreased. It's gone from 3% to 2%. No, no, it does happen. So, most zooa files who are intimate, I don't think they, no,

I don't think they identify as zoo files. It's just something that happens to them sometimes.

That's. Well, okay. But it's usually, because remember

we went down this whole rabbit hole where you were like, you know, there's these people who are into dolphins.

And I'm like, no, they're not. You're like, yes, they are. Look it up. And then somehow we ended up on people into dogs. And I discovered this whole,

I mean, this is long lectures on like the, the, the operational logistics of how this is carried out in modern society. Yeah. As

detailed in this case that the rabbit hole we fell down was by an Italian dog breeder by trade.

But like she revealed this was a bigger community than I thought.

So I, I don't know, maybe I'm still, this was like a, this was like a big part. It sounded like this was as big a part of her life as like, polyamory is for polyamorous people. Oh, no.

Like 100%. This woman was thoughtful. I don't know how I found her through a, a dolphin affinity.

It was, it was a fascinating, because we were at a wedding and we were listening to this like

a long drive on Texas back roads and in her broken English. Anyway. I don't know. I feel like, I think, and this is something that, that I, I, I always hesitate with when it comes to women in sex research is. They're like, it's not porn.

It's a, it's romantic, you know? But no, sweetie, it's,

yeah. Yeah. So, no, but the, the point I'm making here is that this is another category where even within the United States sexual mores were much, much, much looser historically. That's interesting. And so the, you know, we're getting a few categories here.

Bestiality is one where, where it's become a lot stricter and public nudity is one where it's become a lot stricter. Mm-hmm. The, the interesting thing about the bestiality one is if you go to the Kirsha show, she talks a lot about, like, Tijuana Donkey shows this idea that like, wait, okay, so they didn't just.

Used the donkeys, they watched other people using the donkeys.

Well, Tijuana donkey shows appear to be a myth. They, they, they are not, oh, thank God, recorded until the 1970s. Okay. And if they existed, they might have been a faked thing to sort of, get drunk tourists excited. Well, because it

sounds like something that would happen at a de botched Roman Empire collapse party, if you know what I mean.

Right. But, but I'm pointing. People will report having been to them. Some, there's some stories of like some former, but there's really no hard recording that this was ever a thing. And if it was as common as people like today, pretend it was we should have some record of it. Especially given the extensive records we have of this happening in Columbia.

You know, so why isn't this recorded anywhere in Mexico? So, that appears to be a myth. Which but people in comic on ki were like, well, my grandmother told me about going to one of these. So, you know, maybe given the comment again, one in 10 men in the 1940s hadn't done it was an animal.

Right.

I think. Yeah. But I do think a big part of this though was like animal availability. I bet that if men had the same rate of exposure to animals. Now

y actually that's a good point. Yeah. Men do not have as much exposure to animals they would like having sex with today as women do. I don't,

yes, that I don't know if they would like, like having sex with, if it's a, if it's a wet, warm hole

and it's there.

Well, I don't think that men are like, interested in dogs in the same way they're interested in something like horses or sheep that are like, yeah, well no dog.

Yeah, no D dogs. We'll, just if we, or if we're talking about morphology and like what you as a man or woman would want to use to pleasure yourself.

Women obviously shouldn't go for donkeys and horses. But dogs. And as this woman in her detailed analysis that the Italian dog breeder who really liked intimate relations with dogs pointed out that there are specific breeds whose special parts matched the size of human special parts. So she went for that.

So like women, I could see even when it comes to like not just dogs going down on a woman, but like dogs doing more than that. Like they make sense. Whereas dogs, sheep. Like, it, like larger animals don't make sense, but a larger animal from a man's perspective, even considering their height are kind of perfect.

Yeah. Which is why, why I think that this went down much more for men than women, as you saw with the statistics. Exactly. Yeah. 'cause

dogs are, I mean, even now, it's like fur babies, like they're, they're pervasive in households and especially households where women are alone and they're not being watched and they're, the thing that really

shocked me is that, is that you know, 80, 87% of people with this kink have tried it.

And I guess it's just because it's so hard to police or, or do anything about. Right. Yeah.

Who's gonna, well, and that's the thing who's

gonna

know

well? And, and 72%, oh God, if dogs suddenly get some

AI ability to talk.

Oh, that's not gonna be fun for these people.

All the pet owners gonna be like, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

White, white progressive women letting know. Yeah. So, 72% in one study responded to not seeing anything wrong with this. This is today and 80% claim. They believed the animals had offered consent. So this is the, just, just so you know, people who engage with it, why the engagement rate is so high because they just don't see anything wrong with it.

And like, I can make all the consent arguments I want, but like, I eat veal sometimes, you know? So like the, the, the point I'm making is that our society has an awful lot of concern for the consent of an animal when somebody wants to f it, but not a lot when we're torturing, if people don't know what veal is, it's, it's basically tortured baby cow.

You see with veal, the whole key is keeping the cow's chain so they can't walk around or kidney exercise that way their muscle tissue stays soft wait a minute. Veal is little baby cows hipper. Then why the hell did they call it veal? Well, if we called it little baby cow, people might not eat it.

Yeah, I wouldn't have Me neither. Oh man. Look at that one. It looks delicious. What? Succulent and juicy. Can we have a free sample of these two?

You know, not, not a lot when we are factory farming it, and I think that's a little hypocritical. That is,

yeah. Yeah. I think if you could ask an animal what they would prefer to be veal or to be someone's special times partner, I mean, I know what I would choose.

Yeah. No, I mean, absolutely. If, if humans get enslaved by aliens, yeah.

I'll be, I'll be the other one. I genuinely hope that it is weird alien Kirks where they're like, I wanted to go out in space and screw green chicks. They're like, I want to go out in space and screw white chicks. Yeah. Instead of like,

you know, force speed and then eat them.

They'll choose the other one.

Yeah.

Alright. So, so when we was talking about the Columbia thing Gabrielle Garcia Martinez works like a hundred years of solitude, allude to such practices in rural settings. So this is a famous Colombian poet yeah, I read his work in Spanish class. That's crazy. Yeah. So he talks about doing this.

Ooh. So that's how common it is. He has a Nobel Prize, by the way, I think in like literature. Ah huh. I mean, he's covering the truth. That's the truth. That's fine. In the US remember I talked about that mutual masturbation thing used to be common? Who talked about that? You were telling me earlier today Who?

Yeah. Kanye

West talking about Kanye West childhood experiences with young, young someone, young person his age yeah. That were, would be considered vastly inappropriate now. And he's out there not only talking about it publicly, but referencing it in songs. So

here's another fun one. Stag parties.

Have you heard of these? These are part, aren't these bachelor parties? . They're a, a form of male only parties that were common from the 1910s to the 1950s. Okay. In which a group of men would watch pornographic films together. What and 1950s projectionists recalled them as being a rite of passage at bachelor parties as well, so, okay, that's

what I thought.

Bachelor parties.

Yeah. Well there there's also a thing at bachelor parties, so there was a thing where you would hire strippers to come to your, this would like never happen today, the idea, but still

happens in movies. I don't know if it happens today or not. No,

no, no. I did research to see if, if there's any, if people are still doing it, this is still a thing that happens.

And I mean, just think about it, like, why would I cheat on my wife the day before I'm getting married? This requires like a dramatically different. Concept of marriage than the one we have in our society. I'm about to spend the rest of my life with someone I deeply care about. And so the last thing I wanna do is sleep with somebody else.

Like every, everyone involved in that should be like taking you aside and being like, dude, if you want to like see a bunch of like naked people right before you, yeah. You should

probably rethink this, this thing, this

doesn't. No. But historically wives really were seen as like this ball and chain or like this idea of like, your life is restricted now.

You're giving something up. You are enslaving yourself to your duty, to humanity. Right. And that's not, that's not why people get married anymore. Yeah, yeah. No, nobody does that. Nobody does that. And so like who, like, okay, think the cultural groups who get married today, like who is going to do like strippers at a bachelor party?

You've got your, I think it's more

that your jerk friend, guy friend does it. Because he's, you know, the hosting it typically you don't have friends like that anymore. No, but I, well, I don't know. I mean, no, there are definitely different cultural groups in the US where you know, especially resentful guy friends might, you know, bring in that just 'cause they, they're resentful that their friend is being lost to them by some woman they think is wrong for their friend.

I don't, I mean, I just, I could see it, I could see it happening. I can see it, but, but also, I don't know how easy it is to even hire strippers anymore,

but, but I, yeah. Right. But the idea as well, I'm actually gonna gonna see stripper, like a bunch of men getting together and watching a pornographic film at the same time today.

That would never happen. That is well against the sexual morays of our society today. Totally. Next one.

Banana split strippers. We come to you. We come to you. Bachelor party. Yeah. Make it a night to remember. Hire our sexy strippers for the ultimate party. Hottest strippers in town. Deliver to your door.

Okay. I mean, it's, you can have a firefighter, police or, or veteran. They seem for women.

This doesn't seem like actual nudity.

No. Let me, testimonials and reviews. Do you have a Google review? No. They're showing women. Yeah, that's weird. Poconos Bachelor party strippers. I,

I was asking AI if this is common now.

So apparently it's not common, but it still exists somewhere

that the business, this is a, this is a, these are production stag party. Female strippers. Stag parties still exist. That's wild. Yeah. Offers the hottest female strippers and entertainers for fun. Stag parties. Custom eye. Customize your stag party for a memorable Oh, bad girl.

Bad girl. Number one right here. Whoa. Yeah. This, this could have been your experience, Malcolm.

I admit that she looks like she's made of AI

and look at how much fun they're having with their solo cups and EZs

that

doesn't see

that look fun at all. That looks miserable. I do not want to watch some other naked women.

I can see naked women on the internet. I don't need to fight them over to my house. But no, Simone. So next, next crazy thing that used to happen, okay. Burlesque shows, which I'm sure many people are.

Oh yeah. Vita V, or sorry, Dita Vti. Like familiar with from the

1920s to 1950s.

Yeah.

And they're still, no, when we were in Vegas, d Dees had an active show in the hotel where we were staying.

Yeah. But they, they don't like actually strip anymore. As far as I know. Two wear pasties. Oh, she does. Yeah. But, but it's, I mean, I

think it's more about the aesthetic. It's more like watching, well, I go to a

burlesque show today. I think I'm reliving a 1920s experience. I don't, yeah, no, I think

people, you're there to be like, oh, let me put on my smoking jacket costume and do this for fun.

I don't think people are like, excited by it.

Yeah. Well, you also have things like what is it like go-go dancers and stuff like that. What a lot of people don't know about go-go dancers. One of your

friends did go-go

dancing two years ago, right? For fun. But go-go dancing is like a, a way to be like classy.

I love if like women now are like learning go-go dancing. So, go-go dancing. Historically they wouldn't wear underwear. It was like the reason they do the big foot movements and everything. Like

no. You're think Mel No, no, no. You're thinking of the CanCan. Can, can, that's what I'm thinking. Not, yeah. So no, this is the, the, the CanCan.

Yeah. That, that's back in like we're talking like turn of the century. Moulin Rouge in Paris. The, the CanCan is the dress where the women pull up their skirts and, and, and do and move their legs in unison. The reason why this was delicious was flashing something was because they were wearing split drawers.

And split drawers means that they're wearing tantalum with an open. You can see their private parts when they're dress flips up and they're of course they're flipping their legs up so you can see everything Go, go Dancing is more of a dude. Looking hot thing, but I think it's

also maybe now more of a like, sorry, I'm not familiar with my historical dances.

I'm trying to do part of this from memory. Go, go. What? No, hold on there. There's, there's other crazy things that they did in the past. So when I, I dug a lot into

Go, go dancer just entertain crowns at, at nightclubs. But it's, it's not, I don't think it's, it's, it's like, it's not intentionally, it's not like a strip.

They're just wearing very small pants. As a men or woman.

Well, here's, here's a fun one. The people don't dunno about. They can be like, well, you know, in the past they weren't as debauched as they are today. Okay. They certainly didn't have anything like rural 34. Except we have things called Tilian MacBooks or Tijuana Bibles.

Yeah. That were common from the 1920s to the 1950s. And you could buy in barber shops. And these would have things like Popeye having sex, or Mickey and Minnie Mouse having sex. Even back then. They include themes of BDSM or other sort of like subversive humorous themes. And, and at their height there was about a thousand different titles in active publication at a time.

So this was very big, like maybe as big as the comic industry is today, given how much it's declined due to its wokeness. Like, wow. So, well even in the

past, like people would like, a lot of the pol, like political cartoons were probably not even political cartoons. They were just. People drawing known figure.

No, no, no. So one figure, for

example, a great one that came out, this was, this was during the World War ii was a gay one where it was Stalin having sex with Hitler. Aw. So no, they did, they did all so's o tp. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. You could, you could buy your book of, of, of Sta effing Hitler in the 19, in the 1950s or forties barber shop just be like, Hey, I want my in a barber shop.

That's where they sold them out of. Yeah. Well, you could think of 'em as like community centers of the time period where people would go. Okay. Now let's discuss key parties. Have you ever heard of key parties?

Okay. I think I've seen in some like teen drama soapy show, some kind of secret society where you get invited and go to some house and everyone's wearing.

Masks that don't actually cover their faces and having sex? Is that that or no?

No. Okay. Key parties was something that was popular from the 1950 to the 1970s. Okay. In the United States swinger culture in which everyone would go to a party and they would put their keys in a bowl, and you would go at, when you were leaving, grab the keys from one of the opposite gender bowls, and then sleep with whoever keys you grabbed, you'd be going back to their house.

That was the idea.

You don't wanna roll the dice like that.

That's like, that's worse than a consensual non-consent party. I mean, at ALA's parties, you got the, the armband indicating what you're into. Well, again,

this is before the AIDS epidemic. I, I don't care. What if you're not? Like what if they're not

hot?

Well, no, I hear you. But with the point I'm making here is one of the things that I think led to a lot of this, like true promiscuity to die down. We'll talk about the free love movement in a bit. Was the AIDS epidemic in which it was just like, no, you don't want to go to a party without testing people and have sex with random strangers.

Where we have better entertainment

options? I don't, I mean, yes, concern about STDs arose more, but I think the much bigger thing is we can just, there's so many more fun things we can do. Consider that at this time. What did you have? Like occasional TV programs. If you had a TV, radio, like phishing board games, people would invite you over to their house to play cards.

I could see sex being a lot more appealing back then. I, I mean, it would, and what else are you gonna do? And also, like, what else gonna do? You don't have, you can't even work, you know, you and I are like, well, we could have sex or we could work more. And like, this is a crucial time in human history. So like, often the trade off is like, should we be working or should we have sex?

And like even back then, like, you know, husband, like wife is at home, husband finishes his nine to five, like literally he doesn't have a telephone. Like he's, he's not at the office. All his people, there's not that much work you can even do. Like Yeah. He literally can't work if he wanted to. So when he, someone he

does woodworking or sex, like Yeah, that's like,

and I mean, sex is probably a little more interesting than woodworking.

So like Yeah, I could, I could totally see people turning to this because it's,

oh, key parties by the way, do not appear to have been a myth. In a 2008 slate article, it cites interviews with 1970 swingers who confirmed key parties occurred

you would have to have a really trusting. And like you have to have a group where everyone just agreed.

I think it'd have to be like this, the Secret Lives of Mormon wives situation where like everyone is equally young and hot. You know, like they're all sevens to tens here. One,

Interviewee were called a 1972 Ohio Key Party where couples used a bowl to swap partners. In the 1997 film, the Ice Storm portrays a key party in 1970s Connecticut, reflecting its cultural resonance through dramatization.

A 2015 New York Post notes key parties were a fad between the 1960s and seventies of suburbanites. And a 2010 Village Voice interview with a retired Long Island couple described attending a 1969 key party, noting it was awkward but thrilling and involved eight couples that knew each other socially.

They emphasized it was a one-off experiment and not a regular practice. I, I think you're right. This is all, you know people who know each other that's

well and who would all be like, there's no way it's gonna happen. If not everyone is like, I'm open to any of you. '

cause you're not gonna play that game of, well, I mean, look at Aless parts.

You can look at our video on like, or organizing orgies. There're so curated. Yeah. And she

works so hard to get the right mix of people. Like all these things. And there's all these considerations. I mean, on one hand, like the key party, at least you don't have to worry about group dynamics. It's all one-on-one.

But then it's also a little bit more risky that way because there's not the oversight in each individual private household. So

Yeah. But I could, I could see, you know, especially if you're like, you know, a lot of these women are on benzos. Like they're stay-at-home moms. They are tired of existing, you know, like I could see them just being like, screw it. Like just the thrill of not knowing. Who is going to come to your house could just, like, they, that's, that's the rock bottom.

No,

they hit, I, I think we see the, the, the end wr of this sort of mindset in movies like American Beauty and stuff like this, which was sort of the last era of like couples who had this sort of existential hatred for their lives and everything. I think that's why a lot of our generation hasn't gotten married is we saw this in our parents, but like I look at my, I recently had my dad over and he's just impossible to talk to.

I, you know, he is like, well, you know, there's so many things that matter in life, like experiences. And I was like, no, the only thing that matters is what you do. You know that you've got nothing left to live for. Now this is not a nice thing to say to your dad, but I mean, I'm just like, but honestly, like our life, the, the, the weight of our life isn't the years we live or the indulgences that we participate in.

It is what we do to make the world a better place for the next generation. And this as a concept just couldn't get through to a boomer. Right. But I also

think that at this time, as I was pointing out earlier, there weren't a lot of options for people to make the world a better place. So what are they gonna do with their free time?

And again, i I, there's so many things going on, right? Like testosterone levels are dropping, sex drive is dropping. In general, people are off hormonally. So I think there's just less inherent little like, endogenous chemical drive for sex now. Yeah. But also, yeah, we are, we are more prudish. We are a lot more cautious.

We are a lot more self-conscious. We are given so many alternatives that the opportunity cost of pursuing and having sex, even if sex is immediately available, is so high.

I. Absolutely. So let's get to the mutual masturbation that was common in the 1950s. Men

or is this women? Like I I would be so men.

Men, I have

found no accounts of women doing this.

Wouldn't women, but like men are. A lot of men are. Well, okay. Actually a lot of men are not turned off by penises in your data, right? They were like,

yeah. They, they were okay with like, this is weird. I would've found this to be the most disgusting thing ever.

Like, I, I know, could go. But anyway. No,

like, is it, is it, is it a cultural thing?

Are people like, it's a cultural thing? I think, I think it was just so normalized that this is the way that you did things. So, to go over some anecdotes here, because I find it pretty interesting. Okay. Kinzie's data suggested mutual masturbation was common among pubescent boys in context like sleepovers in locker rooms.

He noted it was typically non-romantic at school. Yeah. Locker rooms, yes. By curiosity or competition. And they were quote unquote called circle jerks. I remember I read an account of one of these and, and when he says competition, he means that literally, apparently the comp, like who comes faster, what, or who's bigger, who know who come goes farther, was like one of the things that they, oh,

I wonder how far, like is there Guinness Brook of world records for like, I don't know, but I remember

the person who wrote this story.

This was in a book that I was given on like, what was the sexuality as a kid? What's the farthest? And it was somebody talking about their own early sexual experiences. Okay. And they were like, I dreamed that one day I could build like an erector set or something that could make mine go even further. You know, like, 'cause anything could be solved with technology.

The physics. Yeah. Well, how are you aiming? During the strokes. Yeah. You gotta get that perfect

hole. This is playing up. What was the old game that we played? Mine? Mine. You shot like Yeah,

I

know

what you're talking about. Yeah. There's this old game where we shot canon balls. Try to hit the so a, a a 2000 four journal, A sex research article cites 1950s orals histories.

Okay. Where men were called neutral masturbation as a quote unquote normal part of adolescence, often in rural or segregated settings with women with, with female limited. With limited female interaction. But wait, hold on. I'm just, I'm

trying to think of these. Circle trick. The big, the men have to be turned on.

Like, you can't just be like hard just thinking about being the man to come the furthest No, they, they'd be like, can you just, can you just get off? Like without being turned on as a guy serious.

Like, I'm trying to think of how this works. Okay. They're very young. They're only, keep in mind their, their arousal levels are very high because they're so young.

So like, they just need to think about

like boobs and then, like, they're, they're good to go. They

wouldn't normally turn them on. There is a bunch of friends, right? Like, one interviewee described it as just fooling around. Not a big deal. In a 1950s Iowa farm community they have access to

the animals.

So I'm sure mutual masturbation was like tame. 'cause in

a 2015 Reddit thread are as historians featured, a user calling their grandfather's stories of a 1950s circled jerks at a Pennsylvania summer camp, describing it as a competitive game among boys. Not sexualized, but just what kids did before. It seems cooler

to me when it's competitive.

Like I'm a lot more interested in this sport of how far can you come? I think that is a lot more, I love that. You're like, but

logistically how did it work? I want,

well, I mean, you know, as soon as you bring that into it, you know, like, now this is about skill, this is about precision. This is about physics.

This is about health. Like I'm, they're timing their frequency of emissions.

Yeah. You gotta, you gotta eat the right things. You gotta drink the right things.

Performance athletes.

Okay, so here's another crazy one. Which, which I, for ai, AI couldn't figure any of this out for me. I had to like ask it like, okay, you're making AI

so uncomfortable with all

this, right?

Like, so, another one that was common historically was group porn viewing where there were, now this is like those,

those theaters that, that you can sometimes still drive by in old cities, right? Where like,

yeah. The, the, the thing that made me aware of this was Ewey Herman, the actor who played him ended up basically Paul Rubin's having his life ruined over being at one of these, which I've always felt so bad about it.

You're going to a, basically, he was masturbating, quote unquote, in public 'cause he was masturbating during a porn movie theater viewing. Oh, that doesn't count. I'm like, what? That does, not everyone there knows why they're going there.

Yeah, I mean, if you're not allowed to masturbate in those movie

theaters, a post article quote, sex therapist Hoffer questioning police priorities, what do they expect is happening at these movie theaters?

Men attend those movies to become aroused. Like that, that was, but you wouldn't do this today. No one would do this today. Like, I mean maybe they still exist for like octogenarians or something, but like, I can't imagine people of our generation being like, well, I could watch porn on the internet, or I could go to a movie theater and masturbate in a room full of other men masturbating.

Yeah,

no, about this man.

By the way, if you're wondering, what, what was the film that got him in trouble? It was Catalina five Oh, tiger Shark, nurse Nancy. And turn Up the Heat, because I needed to

know that

it was in 1991, July 26 at the South Trail Cinema. Well, he was fined for $50 in a 75 hours of community service, and it completely destroyed his career.

And he was such a good actor. I like, I feel so bad about this. Like, honestly.

Yeah.

But that also shows like this, this, this you know, diametric, right? Like society was okay with these theaters existing. This is a common thing back then that people did. But if you were caught and the police did regular stings it could ruin your life if you had a public career.

Yeah. Ugh,

man. Now here's another fun one, Uhhuh. Okay? Okay. Yeah. So we're gonna talk about female, female and male nudity. 'cause it used to be much more common in the 1960s and 1980s. Public displays of female nudity, particularly toplessness, were more socially accepted in certain contexts. Okay. Such as beaches, festivals and media compared to today.

Yeah. During this, the, the sexual revolution, modesty norms were loosened. And topless sunbathing became common in Europe, France couture azo in certain parts of the USA eeg California's beach in the 1970s. And the 1970s New York City had topless dancing bars in, in clubs, and it was legal into a 1986 ban per New York Times article venues like Paolo's Retreat, a 1970 Swingers Club featured open nudity among men and women as part of the era's sexual liberation.

Yeah. And in 1964, introduction of the Monokini, a topless swimsuit by designer Ruby Gch was celebrated as a feminist statement. It was women wearing it publicly in Los Angeles, in New York per a 1964 Life Magazine feature. Okay? Arrests were rare and often overturned. In fact, at Woodstock festival attendees record women going topless to the 1969 event, describing it as liberating and normal.

Unlike today, which is kind of crazy.

Yeah. But when we did it, we actually stood for something. I mean, remember Woodstock, Sharon?

We actually did something there.

Woohoo. Woo.

Yeah, I mean, as you and I grew up, I remember a whole lot more nudity. And

I do, I remember talking, I know for a fact I remember like the allure of all of this, like, nudist, communes. It's not that they don't still exist, but it's a significantly smaller community.

Well, I think

now it's sexualized, whereas before it was more normal. Or like even just families, like your parents sometimes wouldn't bother to put swimsuits on you. And that my parents too and their, there are photos from like, oh yeah, I remember at the island,

like, all of the, the, the Bahamian kids would swim naked, like, yeah, be

cool.

Yeah, because like, why get your swimsuit dirty? Why buy a swimsuit? You know, why, why? You know? Yeah. I, it, there are elements of it that, that make a lot of sense. And yeah, it's just, I think now we've become hypersensitized to sex in many ways. You know? We're like, Ooh, this is a big deal. Which is interesting.

Yeah. I guess I never thought about the fact that really society has become. A lot more conservative in terms of clothing.

It's not just that. So, it also public n like events where everyone was expected to be nude were much more common historically. A 1940s Life magazine feature on women's bathhouse has described nity as practical and social Yeah.

Which women tried openly while bathing.

Well, no, that's still, like, that's still the case in Sen in Japan.

In, in Japan, but not in the, I I've been to like as I've said, as a kid, I went to like a naked, like hot spring in the United States. Mm-hmm. And I remember feeling deeply uncomfortable and I would be very surprised if it was still naked or not, like a weird thing for it to be naked in the United States.

Hmm. And, and in Japan, when I've done this, it's been like deeply un I have not enjoyed this, this culturally for me, I was raised never wanting to be naked around other men, or, I don't know. I mean, like, as a kid, I guess

as a, when, when you became a teenager. Right.

Just in case you're wondering when the height of the nude beach phenomenon was, it was in the 1960s.

And, and oral histories from the 1950s and sixties, college women cited a 2005 journal in social history.

Recall, communal showers being a routine. Mm-hmm. In embarrassment, rare and, and a 2015 slate essay by a woman recalling 1960s YMCA swim classes described n swimming as mandatory and uncontroversial. So nude swimming was at the yca swimming.

Then you have, yeah, so

that's, yeah. That's, that's also not serious swimming because you need to streamline your body to be a good swimmer. You want, like, you don't want them who you're as

a person, you're immediately thinking of the practical concern. Well, no, it's true. Like, you don't,

like you all, you do as a, as a competitive swimmer to like, in terms of what you're thinking about with your body is how do I eliminate drag?

You're doing that with your form. You're doing that with like. Tight, tight swims.

But I mean, like, you've seen how much like modern, like Olympians are compared to like historic Olympians and like, you know, like historic Olympians is like a somersault. Yeah. It's like I broke my leg and kept going.

Yeah. No, it's, people are, it's, it's amazing how athletes have just made everything

crazy.

Also, the hippie community. So if you look at things like California Sandstone Retreat from 1968 to 1976, it encouraged open sexuality with men and women engaging in group six and partner sharing by the rejection of monogamous norms per 1972 feature. These communities, for example, by Life Magazine in, in 1970 estimated 2000 US communes with 50,000 to a hundred thousand participants.

Golly. And like sex sharing communes.

Well, and you know what I'd also be interested to, to know from like Burning Man veterans. Is is nudity at Burning Man? Less of a thing now because it was pervasive even when I went in 2005. But maybe now it's just not, maybe people aren't, you know, walking around Burning Man naked anymore.

I wonder. I think part of it's also an awareness of of skin cancer as well, though. Like, you're covering up not just because you feel self-conscious, but because the world itself is hostile, like , the male gaze is hostile, the female gaze is hostile, the sun is hostile. Everything's just out to hurt your body, so you must cover it up.

Yeah. And gr says Burning Man nudity has gone down dramatically every time. Well, and how does,

well,

okay, gr. Yeah, this is, this is, this is what AI tell. No, I can totally see that. Right? Like it starts by being super counter-cultural. You get more people and now it's like the

new Coachella. Yeah. And

now there's like, you know, five or you know, you, you'll see a few new people a day, but they're more like exhibitionists five.

Damn. What, how many did you see when you were there?

A lot. And it was all like, kids were running around naked, like little wild animals and adults. And it, I mean, the, the really refreshing thing about Burning Man when I went in 2005 or four, four or five was it the naked people weren't ugly? 'cause in all the other contexts in which I typically saw naked people, it was, they were exhibitionists in like, you know, during like pride month in San Francisco or something.

And quite often they were not attractive, you know, they were, oh my God, I remember going, what was

it, Folsom Street Fair? I used to,

yeah. And then you're just like, you're not typically like the. Eh, like, I don't know. I think at Pride related events, the people who go naked are not attractive for whatever. I don't know if it's like the attractive ones.

No. They can charge you money for it, or

No, it's fora bytes. We've talked about this before. This. Okay. Well, anyway, Cina Byte Lifestyle. Okay. Yeah. What was unique

at Burning Man was the naked people were on average fit and attractive and like, fine. It was, it was not weird. It was not like creepy. It was just.

You don't have to wear clothes here, so do it. You know? I, I wear clothes for the record.

But, but I guess if we're looking for where has society become more sexually restrictive over time? Mm-hmm. I think a few areas. One is areas in which men used to have to find other ways to get off or used to have a, a, a larger, a domain of ways to get off before online porn.

Like, before online pouring was normalized, it was like, like, yeah. What were your options? A freaking

magazine, a comic book that you, you had to use. I'm gonna go to my barber

and ask for Rule 34. I'm gonna ask my friends, Hey, you want to do the Jack Off competition? Mm-hmm. Like, I think that a lot of this is just like, there's other things to access.

Now. I think another thing is, is that genuinely the idea of being nude around I. Same gender peers has become dramatically less normalized. And

Malcolm, the idea of being around peers has become far less normalized. People don't hang out with friends physically with that.

Why be nude around them, right?

Like, yeah. So I think that that's been a big part of what we've seen. I think access to animals, but also sexual restrictions around morality have become more normalized instead of sexual restrictions for just the sake of restriction where you, where you have to deal with like the consent of an animal or something like that.

And again, I'll never understand, people be like, well, the animal and the cow doesn't consent that I ate it. Like I, I'm sure it was dramatically more concerned about that than anything else. I don't wanna be seen as like arguing for this stuff because I, I have no horse in this. I do not of all the things, I do not yeah.

You're, you're

into stuff, but it's not one of those,

this is not the stuff.

Yeah. But I don't, so also just when it comes back to zoophilia, I don't know how much people are really into zoophilia as, as they are into, like, I just don't have to talk with a human for this.

That's what a lot of them say.

It's, it's that they don't have to do with judgment. And they like, it's not

that they would like to have sex, I think of an animal of

this trend of like white women. But now we have

real dolls. We have, we have flashlights and real dolls, and I feel like they were the original flashlights and real dolls.

Now we just, now we have them.

So, so large dogs are the real dogs for, for progressive white women.

There were specific breeds. They weren't necessarily, they, they were larger dogs, but like, they, she, she like, remember she'd like Paw Choice. She's like, well you gotta be careful about the claws. And like, oh God,

I love how much stresses you out

burned into my, I like, I don't know why, why we looked into that.

There are things you're never gonna forget. You know? I think it's a really interesting topic to explore because it was. We always view our grandparents generation as being like these moral saints. And I'm like, you know, like 40% of men participated in circle jerks of that generation. Like yeah. They, they were not the, the moral paragons we see in them of today.

Oh know though, like the, the, the, the, the competition element may turns it for me into good, clean fun. Well, it is making fun of your body.

WI guess what I'm saying, I'm okay with that saying is, is when I say deviance in their own, they were deviance in their own ways, but they were wholesome was in their own communities.

'cause it's, yeah. So

to me, like in, in the age of king Louis, the, no, no, no. When Maria Antoinette, sorry, I'm, I'm mixing up my, my eras. The, the court, the French court was very young. And one thing that they did to amuse themselves was have farting contests on who could best imitate the sound of like a fine trumpet.

And I think this is like that, putting these things in the same category of just like body humor. People being bored. I think it's like a key party is very different. It's turning to specifically sex as, as entertainment. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I don't know. These are, I

find all this fascinating to go into because it's something that I hadn't considered well, I how debauched the past used to be.

Well,

and this, this definitely slots in to people's recognition that gen Z and Gen Alpha are quite in, in many ways showing signs of extreme prudishness, if not at least religious conservatism.

Well, no,

like, it's, it's a combination of sexlessness, religious conservatism and prudishness. Mm-hmm.

But I think there's a big difference between being a full CINA byte, which some people of this generation are just like absolute, like anything goes, I'm going to die, dedicate my entire life to arousal and self validation.

Yeah. Except,

here's the thing. No. If you are more fully. Pushing toward hedonistic pleasure in our age, you are not going to pursue sex because sex exposes you to potential rejection. It exposes you to potential physical discomfort. It has logistical complications that involves a lot of t dium, a huge amount of t

dium from the hedonists.

They, they end up becoming lewd tubers. We did the valence episode where we like discussed the life of a cbi, somebody who went down this path and, and, and she has eventually withdrawn from public life and just does online stuff because she has too much rejection in it. Well,

and, and because, yeah, the most hedonistic choice now involves zero sex.

It is, it is not the most hedonistic choice. So I think really in the future, sex is going to be a self-identity based thing. It's not going to be for pleasure. No, I agree. I agree.

As we get these AI worlds, these vi avatars, et cetera, VR avatars, I, I think that that people who are seduced by a lifestyle of hedonism are g always gonna have better options.

Mm-hmm. And sex will be like a, a diligent thing that's done between like granola husband and wives to have. Yes.

Yeah. No, and, and you know, it's so funny because the, one of the catch phrases of Nor Sidiki, the founder of Orchid, which does polygenic risk score selection, is sex is for fun. IVF is for babies or something like that.

Right? Like, just like that kind of distinguishing future trend. But yeah, sex is for fun is out. Like we've already passed that We are in a postex age. And I don't think people realize, I, I, I didn't realize until we had this conversation just how far into that we were, that we are no longer we as kids, like a billion years ago, 'cause we're so freaking old, didn't even use the shared shower locker rooms of our high schools.

That's crazy.

It's, it's, it is wild to think about where society is going, but I think it's better. I, I think a society where sex is a duty as it was historically, is better than a society where sex is an indulgence.

You said

duty. For, for most men and women, because they always know that anything else they can do is, is, is gonna be more arousing than sex.

'cause they got the VR environment with anyone they want. You know?

I know, I know. You can like, yeah. No matter if you're male or female, there is, there is some tech driven solution that will I. Be better at optimizing for physical hedonic pleasure.

Well, I think that cultures that can't do this, recontextualization are gonna go extinct.

Cultures have still tried to tell people, as we saw with, with many cultures in our own generation. A lot of these questions are like, well, if you wait for marriage, it's gonna be better. And then they were like, wait, this isn't better. This sucks. Ext isn't that good. Why, why, why did I build this up? Yeah.

Because that was thing you were supposed to be doing. It was supposed to be doing. You, you, you live a life to sacrifice for the next generation. Well, and

I all, I think other religions though like, one of our favorite ex-Mormon influencers, bemoans the extent to which the LDS church communicated to young women that sex wasn't gonna be pleasurable.

If anything, it was gonna be painful. And here are things to

prepare for that, I think thing to communicate to young women.

I don't disagree with you, but what I'm saying is that like, I don't think it, it, it has even been a, a pervasive sexual strategy of. Of Christian denominations or, or religious denominations to say that sex is is for pleasure.

I, I think that, you know, for most people it's just like this. No, no, no. There's

been a recent thing where, where some Christians have tried to catch up with the secular world by being like, oh yeah, that's, we do it our way, it's better. And it's like, no, come on. It's a duty.

Yeah.

And it's now, it's an unnecessary, to me, it's so fun when our sons ask us, like, where did I come from?

Like I've, I've, I've explained this to them. Like I, I've had conversations with our kids when they, they like ask us like. You know, like, well, okay, so, you know, this is how you know animals and some humans make other humans. Mommy and daddy took parts of them using medical science and had technicians in a lab combine them.

And I like, show them videos of like embryologists like, and they're

like, God did for Jesus, because we know it's Joseph sperm. Otherwise he wouldn't be the Messiah because the Messiah had to come from the Diic line. So we know that God is an IVF doctor.

It's just so cool though. Like I, I would've been so much more comfortable as a kid thinking that I was the result of my parents really working very hard to create me and using scientists and using testing and making sure I had every best chance instead of like, oh, I got drunk one night.

I'm like, you know,

I, well, I know, right? Like, love shot. So dinner tonight, we we're getting close to the end here. Yeah,

it's, you're gonna have to wait 'cause it's gonna take me a while to make all that.

You doing panang.

That's what you wanted. Right?

Of course that's what I wanted. But if you want to do something faster or reheat something tonight, that's also okay.

Do we have the German journalist coming tomorrow? Because I can do a big pinine batch when he's here.

Yeah, he'd like that. I did that for the journalist. Okay. When is he coming?

Is he coming tomorrow?

Tomorrow? It's Wednesday. Tomorrow,

yes. Oh my gosh. Time flies. Okay. So yeah, sorry, I was just checking my calendar.

So then tonight I can do, would you like to do the mango curry or would you like to do

Yeah. Reheat the mango curry and put in some pineapple.

Yeah. Okay. I think that that's the appropriate, that is the correct answer I saw in comments from. Yesterday's or the today's episode that ran, they were just like, just say what you're having for dinner.

What are you having for dinner?

Oh, we didn't do it. What we're having for dinner. They need that at the end.

Oh, it, it's I mean, it's an incomplete episode when we do not discuss Oh.

Because we do typically two episodes a day and then we split them up to try to make them work on a, on, you know, multiple days.

So we're only doing the dinner conversation once for the two episodes. Yeah. Word. Which is why, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry you guys, you didn't get to hear what I'm having for dinner. The peoples of the dinner. What is so sweet? Come on. We, we live in this world where people don't talk about your mango. Curry was really good by the way.

But you probably wanna add a few of the red eye, the tie. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah. And they're still pretty good to up a bit.

Yeah, I'll add some of those. I'll add I'll, it doesn't need coconut milk. I'll just add pineapple. And we're good to go.

Yeah. If you wanna add some coconut milk, I would not mind at all, because we gotta get rid of that.

Right. And if you boil it down, that could be nice.

I think I'll be able to use it, a lot of it if I make a big batch of Panang Curry, so I'm not

double check that we have the panang stuff. I

will Thank you.

Because I'm pretty sure we never threw that out, even though it expired long ago. But I don't think it's gonna go bad.

Expiration dates are a scam.

It's a conspiracy. It, no, it's, it's, it is a conspiracy. I agree a hundred percent. In most cases buy more stuff every, every eight years, you know, come on

you say that and yet you've only expired things. And I just eat my way through them and I'm super okay with that. 'cause my stomach

cheese expired milk, like milk does expire. So my stomach

is made out of like steel. I feel nothing. I'm like, we

know we are actually like ravenous, like the backwards monsters.

Like are you eating like actively inspired the fire breed? I am always shocked. I'm like, if society understood like what you and I actually are biologically, they'd be like, oh, they can mimic polite society, but they are not polite society.

I love it. Yeah, you can

tell it when you see our children playing out, you know, these like wild raccoons and they're like, oh.

That's what you are.

No, I, I see, I see, I see the kid who we like will send to take care of them, like running from them and then like the oldest will like jump on him and then the rest pounce on him as he falls over. I feel so bad.

Yeah. That's pretty funny though.

I'm like, oh no, it's a gang. It's a gang.

Collins says going after him. It's just how they show love. It's just yeah. Anyway. No, it's not. Is how they troll people. Right. They understand. I see in our kids they titan

especially, she always starts it.

Love you.

Love you too.

Well, so, so you remember how I pointed out that, that one of our podcast listeners was telling me like, oh, the, it was the legalization of gay marriage that caused all of this DEI and trans stuff to explode. And the, the Catholic community saw it coming, and that's one of the big reasons why against it.

That makes sense. And I was like, that can't be, like, I don't under, like, gay marriage has nothing to do with trans rights. And

actually the legalization of gay marriage did a lot to undermine the LGBT movement because it split off the real LGBT from the crazy ones. Well,

so yeah, and I, I mean, I see that too, but I'm just like, I don't see how suddenly the legalization of gay marriage could lead to all these other things.

But she pointed out and suddenly it was like, oh, this sounds credible. If you're a nonprofit who's, who has raised millions of dollars to legalize gay marriage in the United States. And then gay marriage in the United States is legalized. What do you do the day after it's legalized? You just like, okay,

closing shop.

We're all done here. But that's the thing. We have to shut down these organizations now. You know, this is why you know, I have such antipathy towards these organizations and why I think many organizations have historically served an important role in our country need to be in now. Yeah. They

need to be spun down.

Same with the government. I mean, this is something that you point out in the prag guide to governance in general, is that in an ideal world, organizations wouldn't last that long. They wouldn't get that big.

This is, this is, this is a bit like saying we should be structurally racist as a society. So the organizations that were built to fight structural racism you know, still had something to fight instead of the crazy DEI stuff they fight for today.

Well, it's like, no, we should fix structural racism. So they have no reason to exist. Yeah. And then

wind them down. Yeah. Because they bet they don't need to exist anymore. But so I was like. Okay, but did this actually happen? Did the nonprofits that decided that they wanted to continue to exist then switch to promoting trans rights and DEI?

And so I asked perplexity to do deep research on this using, I mean, I I love that Perplexity Pro, like, man, like premium AI services are great. And indeed, after the legalization of gay marriage in the United States in 2015, many nonprofits a and advocacy organizations had that had focused on marriage equality shifted their attention and resources to a range of other pressing issues affecting the LGBTQ plus community.

So they, they really did switch to one anti-discrimination protections, two transgender rights, three youth support and mental health. We'll see how that went, like making it a big thing. Racial and economic justice elder support, which, okay, I'm fine with hiv, aids and health advocacy. And community buildings.

So they also gave a table of example organizations and their evolving missions. So Lambda Legal went from marriage litigation and then after the, the legalization of gay marriage focused on anti-discrimination insurance, gender rights, healthcare, immigration, and police misconduct which all became very divisive issues in the United States during this period.

Yeah, the National Center for Transgender Equality. Went from policy advocacy to legal recognition. Healthcare access and fighting for anti-trans

healthcare legislation means free drugs to transition. Yeah.

The Trevor Project shifted from youth crisis intervention to expanded mental health services to suicide prevention and advocacy for excuse and conversion therapy, inclusive school policies is what they call it.

SAGE went from elder advocacy to continued support for L-G-B-T-Q, rights fighting age-related discrimination. And the Equality Federation went from state level advocacy to ending conversion therapy, protecting gender affirming and reproductive care and anti-discrimination laws. So it does seem that after gay marriage was legalized, that their attention was then just redirected to more extreme things, which we would associate, you know, including youth mental health focus, which of course comes from a good place.

But ultimately we argue made things a lot worse. But it comes conversion

therapy.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one, I'm not, yeah, like isolates people from their home culture, not conversion

into gay, it's conversion into trans. This is, this is what this thing is. And you, you, you can't talk someone into being gay, but you can't talk to them into being trans.

I want I, I'll just take stuff. Okay. You you wanna try that Tyson? Go ahead. You can eat it all because I don't eat it anymore. Yeah, you don't wanna eat any, your cotton candy, right? I Tell me, do you like it, bunny? I think I, I want, yeah, so you can eat it all.

Yay. I can eat it. Yeah. Look at your big blue cloud of cotton candy. I took a bite off it. Is it yummy? Yeah. Drink a bite.

Join Malcolm and Simone as they discuss the shifting landscape of the job market and how we need to adapt both our professional lives and parenting strategies to a future dominated by AI and automation. They explore the historical context of traditional jobs, the rise of gig work, and the proliferation of AI, and reflect on practical steps to prepare the next generation, including fostering AI literacy, hands-on skills, and strong personal networks. The conversation also touches on the implications of Universal Basic Income and the need for children to build unique, high-value skills in a rapidly changing economic environment.

Our solutions:

- https://parrhesia.io/student-signup

- https://wizling.ai/

Hello, Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today, we are going to be discussing the fact that if you are young, Today, or you are raising kids today, you need to be raising them for a post job economy.

Yeah.

Making very different decisions about the way that you help them prep for, well, being financially stable as an adult. And it also means in terms of your own decisions. I think for a lot of us, we will be in a post job world. What do you think? 25 years?

Yeah, well, the future is here. It's just not evenly distributed.

I think there are many people now who are losing their jobs and we'll never get one again, period. Mm

hmm. And here when I say job, I mean traditional nine to five, like recurring revenue. That is, and Simone, do you want to go into like what is causing the end of the concept of a job? And I first note here for a lot of people who think that this is like an insane thing, jobs are a fairly recent invention.

They were really only invented as like a math thing in like the 1920s.

And this concept of having a lifelong job and getting a gold watch and having a pension that I, it was such a short lived phenomenon. It's hard for me to imagine that, like, how did we ever get that impression that it was going to be that way forever?

Yeah. Go into this.

Yeah. So I think already for a long period of time, we've seen a very slow easing into this and it hasn't just been about AI. And I think that also the way that job reports are coming in there's a lot of under reporting because obviously they're not reporting people who stopped looking for a job entirely and the number of people who are living now by gig work and piecing together a lot of jobs, including short term jobs, is just so high now.

I don't, and I count those as jobs and I don't think most people count them as like long term jobs either because they're not sustainable, they get laid off all the time or they change jobs all the time. So I want

to elevate something you said here because I think that a lot of people might miss this.

And it's what was the economic pressure that led to the concept of a nine to five job that stopped existing long before AI? The reason why you had quote unquote jobs and the skyscrapers that house these people back in the day, it was largely due to the difficulty of long distance communication.

So,

If I was a company and I wanted somebody who was. at X task. Okay. And I wanted to be sure I had somebody who is competent at X task this year and I had somebody who is competent at X task in 10 years or five years or next year. The most cost efficient way to get one of those people was to source.

A competent sort of blank slate and train them in that task. Maybe somebody who had a bit of training in that task to begin with. And so the way I would do this is I would go to the most elite universities or the universities in my area as sort of an authentication mechanism. I would find individuals who are graduating.

And I would say, okay how well, you know, how well are you? Like, how smart are you generally? And I can get that from their GPA. And then I would hire them. And then I would train them up as much as I could for a specific task. And you saw a lot of like rotation programs start for this, for like management jobs, you saw a lot of, but, but that was the idea.

It was, it was not that these companies cared about people. It was that it was efficient and this is why you had to go.

More than that, it was worth it for them to invest in training, which is another clear sign to, I think, many people intuitively already that permanent jobs and stable jobs are gone forever.

No one trains anyone anymore. This idea of like apprenticeship and investing in someone's training is just non existent. People expect you to come out of the box completely ready to go on day one with absolutely zero support. This isn't

totally true. Slow moving organizations, rotational programs still exist and stuff like that, but they're being phased out.

They're totally being phased out. And I feel like they, they didn't really, they didn't have high efficacy. So,

so this worked because if you were trained in this stuff and you were in most cities, there really wasn't that much mobility you had, you know, you might be able to go work for one other competitor or something like that.

But there was a huge reason to stay with the company you were with because of that, but also because of like the pensions and the benefits and stuff like that. They worked into their systems that a lot of the benefits for working in for them required working for them a long time. So they were aligning the interests here.

They invest in you, you invest in them.

And it was worth it for this company to invest in this person because they could reasonably expect this person to stick around. For the duration of their career. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense to train someone, which again, like it's, it's not the company's fault, by the way, that they're not training people.

People are so flaky. Like it is, it is an active risk to even think about training someone.

And it wasn't AI. This is where you have the charts and you can watch our video on this or we go into this a lot more details what actually happened in, I think it was 1976 where you see all the charts begin to diverge in terms of like income data and everything like that and salary rise and everything.

And what it was, was that was the big rise of outsourcing that started. So phones became common and internet became common were the two things that happened. Yeah. And that meant that if I am a company and I want somebody who is skilled. In, let's say, accounting, okay and I want to, as all companies intrinsically do, pay the least I can to get somebody who is broadly competent in this, given that living standards in Africa or India or the Philippines are dramatically less than they are in the United States I can hire somebody who might do a slightly worse job, might have slightly fewer like connections in the office or be able to connect with people, but I'm paying one 10th when I'm paying somebody in the U S why would I pay somebody in the U S when I can pay one 10th of what I'm paying in the U S?

Yeah.

Yeah. And this is what led to the collapse of global poverty. This wasn't all bad. If you look at poverty rates worldwide, they begin to collapse like severe poverty rates at the same time as U. S. salary begins to stagnate.

And this happened for a long, long time. This was happening for, but there were still roles that made sense.

There was still bureaucratic inertia within the United States. And, and some other countries in the developed world. AI changes that entirely.

Yeah. Well, I think first there's, there's a couple of things that happened and before even AI started happening, just general tech and automation have been progressively changing this over time.

It's not like there's a before AI and there's an after AI period. There's a before email and after email. There's a before like all these different types of software and CRMs and automations that enabled people to. Do the work of many other people and that that's why also there's sort of this trend you started, I think, like beginning in the 90s and then onward, you heard of more and more people being like, I'm now expected to do the job of three people.

This is so stressful. So, but not really because they had software to support them. It's kind of like how housewives got. Like dishwashers and refrigerators and clothing washers, and they were able to basically do all their chores in very little time.

All of this happened with the introduction of Zoom as well.

And that was the other big thing is Zoom plus COVID even disintermediated the concept of a corporate environment.

Huh. But then on top of that. And this really, I think, started to shift with Twitter. So only very recently there was the realization that, Oh my gosh, my giant corporation probably has an excess of 60 to 80 percent of employees.

Like, I could eliminate all of them, thoughtfully that, that 60 to 80 percent and be just as functional, if not a little bit more functional. Because

Twitter slash X, you know, when it acts like, what was it? 98 percent 80 percent 80 percent of its staff. There were all these doomsayers who said, Oh, this is going to crash the corporation, but it functions as well as it ever did.

No, I mean, better look at grok that everyone's favorite AI right now. Yeah. It's yeah, you're right. It is just strictly better than it used to be in every conceivable way. And you realize, and a lot of the corporate world took, took away from this and we've seen massive firings. Since then, across the corporate world, a lot of people, what were you going to say, Simone?

Well, yeah. And, and, and I think Twitter was the one that proved it to people and that's why the, and the, the firings are taking place in very subtle ways, I think just sort of reduce alarmism and like news. Organizations are struggling. So they're doing things like ordering people to come back into the office and making new requirements.

That's not

because corporate america makes sense anymore. Everybody knows corporate america is pointless They ask you to come back in so they can fire the ones who don't yeah

it's not like people think that office work is Exceptional with with I guess the exception of some people like elon musk could just but I mean I can get it with his work Like with tesla and spacex where you have people in factories.

You need people there. So I get it This thing with hospitals, you can't like have everyone be remote working, but anyway, so all of these things have already happened. I would already as a parent be telling my kids, which is what happens now. So we have this son named Octavian who's old enough to understand money and who wants it.

He wants it bad. He's like, I need money. Where can I get money? And like, he knows that we, we work to earn money and therefore pay for his things. So he's like, okay, well you work, I need a job. Where am I going to get a job? I need to go to work. And we're like, No, you're never going to get a job, you have to build your own company, you have to make your own money, you can't go somewhere and get a job and get paid, that is over now.

You may see people doing that, but that is the end of an institution that you will never get to participate in. Which isn't 100 percent true, obviously there are going to be salaried jobs for big organizations always. But I just don't

I think you might be and I think a lot of people might be shocked by how rare they become.

Well, not just rare, but like a kind of a form. I don't, it sounds wrong to say this, but kind of a form of slavery. Kind of where you're just living paycheck to paycheck, you're in debt, you don't have stable income. You're, you're being jerked around. It's, it's, you're, you're not happy. You're stressed out.

It's, I think it's just going to get progressively worse in most cases.

No, this is like the old factory towns where you know, if people remember this was, you know, during the time of slavery in the South and stuff like that in the North you had the, the factories where you'd have big lines of people waiting to get a job.

And if you didn't accept the abuse, if you didn't accept the poor standards, they're just like, here's the line. Like they would keep it there. So you could see one of these people will take your job for less because look, they're all starving.

And, and when you have access to anyone in the world to, to replace people that was originally the thing, but with AI, what really needs to be emphasized is look at how advanced the people I know who complain about AI and are like, it's really not that good at thinking.

It's really not that good at, these are people who have not interacted with AI recently. They're, they're, they're generally like, I tried it when it came out two years ago and I'm like, then try it again. Try Croc again. Try Claude again. The paid models, the good models.

Yeah, what, what are these people even enter?

They're just like, I imagine they're just doing things like, make me a sandwich or something. And it's like, well, I can't do that.

Yeah. They're not like, here's my taxes. Do them for me. Yeah.

Do my taxes. And what, sir,

sir. Well, no, it's not far from a lot of that stuff, you know, we know it's really not all the time.

Yeah, I think, hey, we need to write an executive order for the president. Can you draft one for me on this topic? Hey, I need to write a, you know, like

to help me with taxes all the time. It's actually, it's incredible with anything sort of tax or government or statute related because yeah. It can translate government ease into human, which is really helpful.

Or you go to something like, I can go to Grok and I went to Grok today. And I was like, what episodes would listeners of based camp with Malcolm and Simone likely like to have an episode on, and it'll give me like great suggestions, like, you know, this is. Absolute or perplexity. You know, we use a ton with our shows instead of hiring like a researcher.

I'm just like, give me links to everything on this particular subject. Like or the art that we use in our title cards That's somebody who we might have outsourced to in the past. And yet every one of them is done with an ai or Multiple ai sometimes multiple ai so we yeah, you know to use ai Well, you really need to know all the systems for a specific task.

So it should go without

saying that basically AGI is well on its way. And though historically for the past at least 20 years, we have been seeing the downfall of the job as technology has made more and more human action obsolete. Now, even the most elite human action is going to swiftly become obsolete.

And if you ask AI about it, AI is even going to vastly understate how much AGI is going to take over human jobs. For example, if you ask, and I asked I asked ChatGPT, I asked Claude, I asked I asked Grok and I asked Perplexity all about what they thought you know, the, the only human jobs would be, or like the, the, the, the remaining areas where humans could actually have successful companies and, and do successful work vis a vis AI.

And they're like, Oh, well, I think that things like counseling and therapy and, and the creative arts are things that really only humans can do. B******t. You know, the most popular We already have AI

doing that. I know,

I know. The most popular chat companion on most of the AI chat sites, it's a therapist.

Yeah. Huh. And everyone loves it a lot more than human therapists. And what is like, what is the, the, the first thing that really nailed AI was, was, was art. Like it was,

Oh, and I love this complaint where people are like, AI is just give like the, the, the, the, the most average answer possible because they're token predictors.

And I'm like, is that not what you want? Like from a therapist, do I not want the average of what all therapists Well, they actually

give the most I don't know if it was Scott Alexander or someone else. I think it was Scott Alexander who did some kind of like, he either had a test or offered a test or took a test.

That compared famous historical works with AI, basically equivalence of those works. And, and a lot of people basically just weren't able to tell the difference. I was instantly able to tell the difference. And all I had to do was look at the two paintings. And think of which one was just a little bit more perfect.

Well, hold on, I have another great, there was a great study done on people who said they hated AI art. And it turned out that people who say that they hate AI art when presented with two pieces of art, if they don't know which one was created with AI, Persistently choose the A. I. R. over the non A. I. R. Of

course, because when you compare, you know, side by side,

people are just willfully ignorant is really the point.

They have this belief that the world isn't changing that much or that things can't really change that much or the technology can't be that good. And it's just a it's, it's weird. It's almost like the opposite of like a Luddite perspective. It's like, yeah, I don't engage with the world perspective.

And it's, it's bizarre to me, but those of us who have kids and we really do need to think about our kids and like how we're raising them. We need to accept that this is the reality for them and that AIs are going to be better than humans at most tasks. And so as they think about, like, what does it mean to educate myself?

The very last thing you want to be as a human today is somebody who is outputting the average answer.

Yeah. That being a mediocre and generally good at, at things is really, yeah, actually I think I took notes here. Grok put it best. Let me pull up what Grok said as a general. Overview. Humans will still hold an edge in areas rooted in emotional connection, physical presence, cultural nuance, and subjective experience.

It, it, it thinks basically that a lot of

areas,

no, it's not, it's not he grok wrote niches. King AI will dominate mass markets. So focus on small, passionate audiences, willing to pay for human expertise or connection. Use A. I. S. Obviously the whole time to do this, build relationships and start early.

So the general conclusion that I came after talking with the four major A. I. S. In my view and getting their insights and where they think that humans really matter. Is what, here's what I think we should do with our kids and you can critique what I think we should do. So one, our kids need to grow up AI native.

Their friends should be AI. They need to use AI to solve every problem that's out there. Like everything they do leans on AI. They grew up with AI. They are integrated with AI, right? The other thing is, and this is sort of on the other end of that spectrum. I really want them to apprentice with a contractor, or fixer, or plumber, or electrician, or pest control person.

Like, to learn physical problem solving and get used to that. Because that is, that is going to be a really important component later on in their career. Whether or not they just want to fall back on, like, being a pest control person or an electrician. Because to, to the point of AI, actually, that, that is going to be an area where, like, There's still going to be jobs forever.

And you can start your own business to do that. So that's really important. Find that person to apprentice with and help them out like for free. And that's a key part of your education. Then from an early age, and I'm so glad our kids are so thirsty for like online presence. You need to build a strong public online presence and a clear character that could plausibly jump into and make sense in a lot of different niches.

So like you should. Be online. You should be well documented. You should be in exchanging content, doing like appearances with other people on lots of different platforms. And then build a strong personal network with other high agency people who are doing the same thing, because this is the key to your any entrepreneurial thing you do taking off because in the end people are only going to.

Work with humans because those humans have cachet because those humans have recommendations because there's something special about them. AI is going to do everything better. So the only reason they're working with you is because you're a celebrity in your niche. And so you have to be lumpy and weird.

And then also be the one to start the parties in your networks. Like, so be the one to convene vacations and events and things like that. Because one of the areas where AI did point out humans could do fairly well is in human gatherings and events and like sort of cultural things. So you could just be an event organizer.

You could be a retreat organizer. You could become someone who organizes these communities that, that people still pay money to be a part of because they need to feel that. Connection. And again, it could be like really nerdy stuff. Like, I watched this one YouTuber who just reviews conventions. And there are so many niche conventions.

Like for some specific subgenre of like fantasy romance. Where they have like balls and workshops and but there's like people make money off this. Right? So you can own that niche, but you have to build up a reputation to do so. And then I think the most important thing and this will probably manifest in a lot of different businesses that are kids will create throughout their careers as entrepreneurs.

So they're basically going to create micro company after micro company after micro company is learn how to physically build something. That people might want made for them by a human. So it could be, I think Grok gave the example of vegan leather shoemakers for cyclists. This is an example. But I was also thinking like custom drones, custom home security systems, bespoke AI companions.

Like sort of giving the right prompts and like then like literally crafting the actual robotic companion. Doing car mods. Wait, should

they make the AI girlfriends that replace everyone? Yeah, like

literally like make AI girlfriends, make AI caretakers. Like being someone who cuss and mobs them and like does the same with drones.

Well, no, I mean, I think

that's going to be a thing is people who make AIs that are then like in the same way you have like VTuber creators now who are like good VTuber designers. They're going to be good designers of AI celebrities.

Well, yeah, and people like, maybe everyone's going to have an AI slap drone, but like some people are going to have.

A pink AI Slapdrome that holds a parasol for them and speaks in a British accent. Like, who's gonna do that? Sorry. People will come to that person. Or like, I think there's also gonna be a lot of interest in like, Girl! Girl! What are you doing?

I think there's also going to be a lot of interest in and, and the AI agreed with me on this in like historical ways of building houses and furniture and clothing and even fabric, like artisan fabric making, even now, so the, the most, the people who are most excited about Laura Piana, for example, which is sort of the, if you know, you know, fancy person brand, like they're not, they're not buying like Louis Vuitton or Chanel or anything.

It's, it's Laura Piana. It's, and it's because they're kind of obsessed with this like artisan fiber material sourcing and then weaving together. And it's like, Oh, well, the material and the artisan. And like, I think in the future, it's going to become the niche version of , that you are having a, a niche celebrity do it. So a niche celebrity tattoo artist, a niche celebrity, whatever. And so I want our kids, that's why it's really important that they both get really good with AI. And build a strong public persona and network, but also really learn physical problem solving early on and are really comfortable with robotics, with electronics with things like that.

We already have like AI toys

for our kids.

We do. But our kids aren't yet old enough to like apprentice, for example, with John, who I think it'd be amazing for them to apprentice with because John does. John is, John is our neighbor and also like basically family to us. And he. Has a business.

Yeah,

he has a business that does all sorts of things from like landscaping to hardscaping to tree management. And like fixing things in homes and all sorts of things like that. Oh my gosh, to get our kids exposed to that would be so helpful because you have to learn. Those skills, there's one other element of this that I think will be for some of our kids, lumpy interests, which is STEM.

And I think it was Claude pointed out to me that one thing that AGI will be unleashing is whole new scientific fields and new discoveries that that smart and entrepreneurial people can act on in ways that AI just kind of in isolation, maybe can't necessarily, because you really need to connect breakthrough technology.

With high agency people who make it a thing. Right. Like if there's something we

change the Collins Institute to breaking out all human knowledge and instead of having we used to have multiple choice face tests to pass a skill now it's a Socratic AI

tutor

that you can do in Socratic mode or to test you.

So let's say that, you know, AGI discovers some, some amazing new therapeutic. Well, if our kid also then is really well connected with, you know, great investors and other scientists and things like that. They can start to market and sell customized versions of this therapeutic to other people within the network.

I don't care at this point if it's like regulated or not, because that's not going to matter in the future. You know, like what catch me, like you're going to have basically, because we, we also know that AGI is, is going to create a very, very, Very wealthy point zero zero zero one percent and then everyone else who's basically and we need to be popular within that wealthy network But the other thing is being a type If what you're selling to the zero point zero zero zero one percent is illegal Because they're richer than crisis.

It just doesn't matter like they have ways of hiding that and and so will you using ai? Sure. What am I missing?

No, I, I largely agree with everything you're saying there, to be honest. I, I think you know, building community that people want to be affiliated with is really, really important in where we're going and focusing on community in terms of how you're selling, in terms of how you're thinking about you know, with our kids.

What's going to be important for them is in the previous generation, you could just go to an elite school like you and I did Stanford and Cambridge. And then there was certain networks that you were like automatically in. That's not going to be true for this next generation. That means these people who I think are investing in these Harvard degrees and stuff now They're not going to matter as much as they did historically, if at all, they might even be seen as a negative in a lot of communities because they're seen as you know, trying to split the difference and potentially invalidating of an individual.

And I think that a lot of people, that's something that is, is not being accounted for as much in people who. are now like, yeah, but it's better to get the Harvard degree to be safe. I'm like, you don't know if in 20 years that will be seen as a strict negative within positions of power within our society.

There's already a lot of suspicion around stuff like that. I would not be surprised if I'm talking about the next generation. I'm not, not this generation. I think on the margin, if you've gotten in, it's probably worth it. But for the next generation, I'd say my best guess is it's probably going to hurt your career prospects.

If you could have gotten in. And that you're much better off on focus on building community. Eyes was in online environments of social networks. I think

it might be more of a liability because the people scrutinizing you are going to ask, didn't you have something better to do? Like with AGI and even with AI as it is today.

This idea that you would slow down your life by three to four years

to just like a passport stamped.

Yeah, it's, it's it's, it's suspicious and it implies a lack of drive alive, a lack of ingenuity, a lack of being willing to take initiative and try and build something yourself. And, and for that reason, I would view it.

With suspicion in the near future. I get why people do it now because we still live in this very brackish world where some people are already fully steeped in the future, but. Many people still are living by the old rules and you still in those communities in those spots of water have to play by those rules.

Well,

somebody will say something like when they look at the college institute, they'll be like, well, okay, it may be in every conceivable way better than a traditional education at this point. And a lot of people are like, why aren't your kids going yet? They can't read yet. Okay, we're building a college institute version 2.

0 that will have a part of it for kids who can't read yet. That'll do voice with AI and everything like that. That'll be there eventually. Not there yet. But my gosh, is it a

school for kids who can't read good, but want to?

Yes. But the the version of better in every conceivable way, except people will say, well, what if the kid doesn't have self motivation?

You know, it doesn't, it doesn't have the ability to drive. Well, then

they can just sit back and rot with their AI girlfriend forever.

You are responsible for teaching and imparting to them in a parent. No. And school, the traditional school system isn't going to part that. If their motivation is just, Oh, well, I'll get in trouble if I don't do this.

That's not going to exist when they graduate.

Nope, because you'll just take your UBI and go, you know, Die in

the woods.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm really concerned about UBI. I'm really.

Well, I want to do an episode on this particular topic as I've looked at how UBI has destroyed communities that have gotten it intergenerationally, and we have examples of this in things like American, Native American communities and wherever it's happened intergenerationally, the community has just rotted.

We're talking, you know, only one in four people is employed. I mean,

hell, why can't trust fund kids? Like the way that the percentage of them didn't wash out. We didn't even need to look at the disadvantaged communities. Because everyone's always going to argue, well, but they were facing systemic disadvantages.

No, look at, look at the people who descended from arguably the best privilege, every advantage, all the money, all the connections. And I have a lot of

friends in this. A lot of them ended up nobodies. Like the majority ended up nobodies. Because they expected that it would continue. And, and not just.

Especially

those, especially those who had no forcing function to try. I, I would argue that those who were not given the luxury of living off a trust fund on average turned out pretty okay. It's the ones who had the trust fund that washed out.

The, the ones, yeah, are the ones whose parents, like, fucked up at some point and lost all the money.

That's why

I loved your family tradition, basically, like, sort of unspoken family tradition of, like, Oh, are you not doing well? Well, don't come home.

Yeah, like, we don't help the ones who don't do well. Like, no, but it actually is really important, And we see this among our network. If I, I look at like, what's typically the profile of someone who's like actually super successful, they're typically from a family that was super successful, but then lost all their money or something else like that.

Or for whatever reason, disowned them or something like that. That's the general like Elon, right? Like. Elon's dad was fairly successful, but he never really got any benefits from that because his dad is such a skeezy person. Am I allowed to say that his dad is a skeezy person? Like, I generally accept it.

I think

marrying your stepdaughter skeez territory. Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah but I think that that, you know, hugely, if his dad had actually owned, like, emerald mines that he could have milled, he probably wouldn't have ended up. Anywhere near as successful as he is. And

He doesn't have as much motivation, yeah.

Yeah, and this isn't just a US thing. I'm thinking about like the friends we have who are like successful in Latin America, the friends we have who are successful in Asia. It's a very similar pattern.

In this existing economic system. And I think that this pattern will reinforce itself in the next economic system.

There is nothing worse that you can give someone than a safety net.

Yeah.

Than financial stability.

I mean, yeah, there are exceptions. You know, I think that sometimes there are unforeseen events and acts of God that can throw you back. And I think it's, you know, very case by case in terms of a family deciding to step in or not.

And they're absolutely legs up and it can make a world of difference for someone and those, those types of advantages really vary. So it depends on the time and the context. So I do think that occasional hands at the back, you know, like spotting hands are good. I just think that a guaranteed spotting hand is not good.

Yeah.

Like, kind of like when you're rock climbing. You shouldn't feel any slack. Sorry, you should feel nothing but slack. And if you fall, you're going to fall for a while before the rope catches you.

Okay, okay. I love that. A horrifying example.

Well, I really, I hated that. When rock climbing, I'd be like, Pull up the slack!

Pull up! Like, I basically wanted to feel like someone was literally pulling me up the rock wall I was climbing, you know, like that's the, that's how it feels comfortable. And that's true. Like trust fund kids are just being hoisted up. They're just hanging in midair, just being hoisted up. I mean, that's what's happening to

people in the DEI networks.

That's what was happening with the Native American communities for ages. And so who's going to try, you're not

going to climb. If someone's hoisting you, that would be stupid. Like people are behaving logically. It's sad.

Well, and how do you, when UBI happens, do you tell our kids not to take it?

I mean, they'll take it, but they'll invest it in their businesses.

Like the idea of using that to support yourself is, is, is sad, but yeah, we're going to need to invest. We need to like make a maker studio. Like we could maybe put like a little barn, like I, I, our kids need to get used to building artisanal physical objects. Really early on and find weird enthusiast communities that get excited about them.

If you're watching this, by the way, and you have kids around our kids age, you're even, you know, you're planning to have kids in the near future and you want to be on our email list for like parents to do like get togethers and stuff like that. Cause we're going to do eventually yearly, like summer camps and stuff to build, you know, collective culture networks and stuff like that.

Let us know and we can help you on those fronts.

Indeed. Yeah.

I love you to death Simone. What am I doing for dinner tonight?

Per your request, we are doing more of the chicken curry with garlic naan, but what type of curry is this? Lol, hold on. Moss? See it was, it was a lamb dish, but then we made it with chicken on.

Oh, well, let's throw in,

more of the, yeah, like that super red. I

put in a bit of chili oil.

Yes. L A A L M A A S. Lolmas.

Lolmas. Okay, well, I put in some chili oil. It's

Rajasthani mutton curry, known for its fiery red color and rich flavors.

Some chili oil. Okay, do you know where the chili oil is?

I thought that, that gave you digestive discomfort.

It might, we'll see.

Oh boy.

Chili oil, and we'll try no, and I, no, I didn't say So not

the red chili powder, you want chili oil instead.

I, I didn't say the, the spicy sauce, the tampon sauce, or whatever it's called, but chili oil, just labeled chili oil. It's like a red oil, so a little bit With like a yellow

and blue label.

No, that's the tampon sauce. Oh! That's a specific flavor, I think is what's calling the digestive problems. Chili oil is a generic oil.

All right. Well,

so chili oil and a,

just put in the red powder, super spicy chili

oil, and a bit of the red powder, but not a ton of the Jesus.

All right. Good luck, friend.

Well, have fun storming the castle. I love you.

Storming the castle. What are you talking about? Our kids, by the way, are rolling down the hill over and over again right now. On their little scooters on this,

are they wearing their helmets?

Yeah, they're wearing their helmets. This is good. Because they go fast.

We've got a hill by our house that's like, paved. And I remember seeing them the first time and I was like, they gonna die. They do not have any fear at all about going full speed to the woods. Yeah,

I remember the first time I learned Not to play it too fast and loose on my bike, because I was leaning into turns.

Oh, I don't want to hear about this, but I will tell you this Simone, they won't learn. You think an injury is going to teach these kids anything? I don't know, when

you

scrape off half of your skin. Ah! No! Yeah!

Quiet! What? You'll learn. You'll learn. I need to get better bandages for that. I need to prepare.

We had this like, you want that, like that plastic kind that goes over the open

wound.

Are we going to, are we going to, when do I need to start taking them into the woods more? They already found it very formative. Remember Octavia? After the

swamp marigolds come out, I would say. Oh

yeah, that's a great time.

We can actually go to like the deep swamp area and I could let them out one night for like a, a witch day.

Where's that hiking trail that has the witch swamp? When we were walking. Oh, no, it's right by Pauling's farm.

Yeah.

The witch swamp. Yeah. It looks really creepy. Like, legit creepy.

Should I, should I have them go give them like high boots and stuff and go explore the witch swamp?

Oh,

God. Octavian, remember I took him in the woods and he made drawings of it for a while of like, remember he was like, oh, yeah. This is me

going to the woods with daddy.

Yeah, but then there were those instances of Octavian deciding he was finished before the family was, and him just disappearing on you.

And I would be so confused, like Octavian comes home and I'm like, where's Torsten? Where's Titan? Where's daddy? He ran

home while I was in the woods and I was panicking trying to find him.

Yeah, you're out there like looking for him and he's home just Just chilling, helping me make dinner.

Oh well. It's like daddy said it's okay.

I did not say it's okay.

Little nugget. I love him though.

Clearly, this is the thing. We get in trouble for barely beating our children and I think the problem is, I just don't beat them severely enough.

Gotta beat them when they're broken, it's true.

They are tooth care free. Look at this. They don't even know about injury yet.

I'm glad they're enjoying themselves. None of

them have gotten seriously injured even once. It's kind of surprising. It's a huge relief. I really don't want them to get hurt. Yeah, I don't want to deal with that, but you know, I don't want to raise pussies.

They'll, they'll figure it out. At any rate, I will go start your dinner and I love you very much as it happens.

Love you

too. Have a good one Simone.

Bye Malcolm.

Bye. God, Reddit's become such a cesspit every time. I had tried to prep a video. This is actually really interesting. I wanted to learn about, like, people who are doing, like, VR dating and everything like that. Like, what are their relationships like? Like, with their AI

boyfriends and girlfriends?

Well, no, no real people, but through virtual reality and the stories were all because, you know, there's these like virtual reality, like chat rooms and stuff now that remind me a lot of like, are you in an avatar?

Yeah, you're in an avatar.

Okay.

Like as a furry or whatever. But like the communities in them seem to be dramatically less interesting or diverse than the ones that existed within Second Life and the stories of the marriages that come out of them are just like super boring which I was really surprised by.

I thought there would be more, more there.

Right? That's odd, isn't it? I don't know what to make of that.

Whatever. I don't know. People are RFED News. Top most survivors have been reinstated at the NIH. Their illegal probationary firing was ended. Thousands of people were rehired due to a judge. So we've got to see

that, you know, the fight will continue.

They'll do what they need to do. It

will happen. Let's

hope. Let's hope.

I know it's having. learned that the Clinton administration also had a Doge like effort and that they just went through the proper channels. And it, I mean, it took them eight years, but they still did it. Part of me is a little regretful of the timeline that Doge has, you know, they, they did not give themselves a lot of time.

Until 2026,

I'm kind of like, well,

we'll see. We'll see, Malcolm. It's all good.

Okay, so what did you want to tell subscribers? Subscribers, subscribe to the channel, then um, uh, and press the like button, then um, uh, if you want kids, then um, uh, school art, then we are gonna send. Like, Minecraft to your, like, um, uh, phone so your kids can watch, like, um, uh, the video of Deja and Mikey, like, turn into vampire videos all the time if you want, like, other videos, like Crafty.

Or, um, like, um, uh, Minecraft with them and play Minecraft. And also, if you want to play Minecraft, they will put your ID right there. Okay? Okay, and, um, will you send them a kid if they want kids? Mm hmm. Also, they say in my game, Minecraft videos. I know, I know. And also, um, like that. Like and subscribe is, like, I like and subscribe to somebody's channel too, and I got so happy that I like them.

Do you think that they'll get happy if they like and subscribe to our channel? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

In this episode, the hosts discuss the transformation of conservative ideologies, critiquing the 'pearl-clutching' mentality of pre-MAGA conservatism. Through the lens of two contrasting anime series, WataMote & Chunibyo, they explore how different cultural contexts affect mental health and the worldview of individuals. They also delve into a recent article critiquing their unconventional lifestyle and highlight their belief in living authentically with aligned values. Moreover, the conversation covers various aspects of modern conservatism, the impact of AI, and the importance of maintaining passion and creativity in one's approach to life. No Matter How I Look at It, It's You Guys' Fault I'm Not Popular! Love, Chunibyo & Other Delusions

this guy represents is the iteration of the conservative party.

That the conservative party lost the, the pearl clutches, the, oh my God, how could they be doing something different? Oh my God. How could this be vulgar? Oh my God. How could this be, you know, oh, anime girls or soft anime, like Matt Walsh represents satisfaction, right?

Yeah. Like where it's always railing against things like anime and video games,

She is friends Now we're not gonna be able to karaoke with the guys. No way. We've got plenty of time and they're dumb slides.

Then we have the second anime that we're going to be talking about. And people could argue that all of MAGA is kind of doing it,

It opened

This is hard to watch NGO Blast.

Would you like to know more?

Hello Simone. I am excited to be talking to you today. Today we are going to be talking about two things. One is. Contrasting two animes in which the main characters relate to the world very differently.

And I think through the contrast of these two characters, we can learn a lot about mental health and how both the urban monoculture, but also the older conservative culture ends up breaking apart people's minds and causing them to go sort of crazy. But we will also be focused on how. Much I have disdain for the pre maga form of conservatism.

Mm-hmm. Or specifically the form of it that didn't like grow up when conservatism became MAGA , a great example of this and what got me thinking about this was , a article that came out about us recently by this guy who was just absolutely railing on us.. You're referring to a piece that came out in the Bulwark. It's called The Two Faces of Tism, and it's by Jonathan last, who Yes. Apparently also wrote a book on Tism at one point, which I guess is one reason why he feels like he's just figured it out. Yeah, so perhaps the second and third most famous ISTs in America are Michael and Simone Collins, Dr. Not Malcolm. He really does his research, doesn't he? He really does his research, thanks to many, many press profiles of this activist, 30 something couple, which he is not read apparently. Yeah. Here's a sample of their views on parenthood.

Every decision the Collins is make is backed by data. Noms determinism is a heavily studied field. Malcolm tells me when I ask about his children's names. Girls that have gender neutral names are more likely to have high paying careers and to get stem degrees. Names like Titan Industry are much more than gender neutral.

I say we wanted to give our kids strong names. We wanted our kids to have a strong internal locus of control. He continues, almost all the toys are gifts. Malcolm says almost apologetically. We don't throw out anything that gets. Sent to us. Both boys have their own iPads fitted with a strap so they can wear them around their necks.

2-year-old Torsten is alone somewhere with his well jokes on them. The kids broke those straps so fricking fast. Yes they take me upstairs as well as having separate offices. Simone and Malcolm sleep in different bedrooms. Simone shows me some decorations in the living room. They relate to the intentionally constructed religion, technically atheist.

They have internally developed to provide a moral framework promoting their values for prenatal as families. Instead of Christmas, they have future day. The future police come and take their toys, and then they have to write a contract about how they're gonna make the world a better place to get their toys back with some gifts and stuff.

They get more gifts when they do whatever They said they were going to do, what does Christmas teach them? Get random toys if you're vaguely good. And so that was a quote that he had from a different article and so, you know, here I am. Yeah. Specifically the Guardian article. Yeah. I read that and I'm like, yeah, that sounds pretty interesting and cool, like mm-hmm.

Obviously we're not going along with what's socially normative, but like. Yeah. And he's like, I am not one to judge other parents, but that's f up. Let me proceed to judge. You're right. No, but the, the point I'm making here is that this is an individual who is like, oh. GFA clutch, my pearls. People are doing things new.

So I looked up this guy and I go, what else is he known for? He's known for being a never Trumper conservative. Mm-hmm. And he wrote a long piece about how amazing Biden was. For example, he wrote. I hope you drank it in last night. It was one of the most human memories I've ever seen in politics. From the second the president stepped on stage and embraced his daughter, but it was more than that.

It was America saying goodbye to this ordinary man who has become an extraordinary president, a president who saved our democracy. This is one of those cases where the cran strip. Doesn't give you enough context. You need to see the video. You need to see Biden's face and feel the vibrations coming from the crowd.

And you absolutely need to watch his final section where he transitions from campaign speech to valid diction. And I, I. I think somebody who can write with that much passion about Joe Biden. I, I, weak question. What I realize is what this guy represents is the iteration of the conservative party.

That the conservative party lost as it took on people like you and me. The, the pearl clutches, the, oh my God, how could they be doing something different? Oh my God. How could this be vulgar? Oh my God. How could this be, you know, oh, anime girls or soft anime, like Matt Walsh represents satisfaction, right?

Yeah. Like where it's always railing against things like anime and video games, and it's like, okay. You know, and I don't even think like, okay, boomer, because it's not boomer, it's like a very specific faction of curmudgeon. It's, yeah, it, it's, it's not even curmudgeonly. It's like defeatist. It reminds me a lot of tism in the UK where it's like, ugh.

Things are just bad, aren't they? And there's nothing we can do about it, and I just don't like it. I think from the difference between these two groups and we will look at this through anime. We can understand how to improve our own mental health. More, which is a truly, because you, you could tell that an individual like this, like you and I are like living our lives out and proud and weird and we are cl clearly loving it.

Like every day I'm like, this is the best life I could ever have. And this guy. Clearly feels like the world's falling apart around him. You know? Oh, everything was better in the past. Oh, you know, this is all so sad. And you and I are constantly like, look at all the cool things I can do with AI now.

It's amazing. What a time to be alive. And so there's these two animes. One anime that we will be looking at is around a character called Tomo Tomoko. It is called Wamo Otte. And it's, and I'll put some clips of it here to give you like a vibe of it. Okay. But it's about a young girl in middle school or early high school who is very, very socially anxious.

And she really, really wants to be accepted by other people. And she just keeps self-destructing through her selfie and intense desire for acceptance by the community.

She is friends Now we're not gonna be able to karaoke with the guys. No way. We've got plenty of time and they're dumb slides.

Oh yeah. We do it like every day. She's definitely still a virgin.

Be sure to drink plenty of liquids and take precautions against heat stroke.

Go ahead and work yourselves to death. Corporate slaves,

Seriously? It doesn't even matter.

And it is a. Anime that the entire, like, it's a, it's a well done anime, but the entire vibe of the anime is depression and, and, and social rejection.

Wow. But I think a lot of people feel like, oh, I get this right. Like I want to, it resonates with them. So you think it's a popular anime because people get it and they. Yeah, it's like an anime dedicated to like a proto Koori. Like, you know, I'm going to school, but I don't really want to be here.

Like, what am I doing here? Et cetera. Then we have the second anime that we're going to be talking about. And this anime is called Chino and it is an anime. About a girl that is equally socially awkward. She's going through a stage that they have in Japan. I forget what it's called, like magic Girl stage or something.

But it's a, it's something that we saw when we were kids. Some kids did. And you know, I, I went through phases where you do things like this and like middle school or, or high school. And people could argue that we're still kind of doing it, that all of MAGA is kind of doing it, which is to say. She dresses up like she is a magical girl with like a, a air eye patch that she doesn't need.

And then under the eye patch, she doesn't need like a yellow contact Yeah. To try to make her look like special.

This flavor. This must be the work of the dark organization for our safety. I shall seal it.

There's no way. Stay away, get back.

Oh, one moment please. I'll put it back in. It was a contact all v.

This is hard to watch NGO Blast.

Pretty nice red fruits can have seriously negative effects on one's powers. This one curbs magical abilities. Are you trying to say you don't like tomatoes? This green, squishy area is particularly dangerous. Just look at it. There's obviously something diabolical going on. Are they really that bad? Rice has been tainted by its evil.

And she the pretends like the world she's living in is one in which there's these like magical beasts everywhere.

Last night I was searching for the invisible boundary lines when suddenly ferocious beast appeared before me, so I caught him. Do you really plan on keeping him? Yes. He will become my loyal, familiar as a creature from the realm of darkness.

Kamara has the power to locate invisible boundary lines,

Oh, is, is this the one and this girl like. Hangs out at the apartment of someone else who just kind of tolerates her?

Well, no, no. So he learns to accept her as the show goes on. She's the type of person who like stands in front of like a train right before the, the train doors open and puts out her hand, like she's crossing the doors open.

It opened

I think I've seen clips of this. Yes. And then look to, to learn, look at the guy who is watching, like very self satisfied.

You know, like I did that. Yeah. And the, the sort of plot of this one is this guy that you are thinking of. He's a guy who used to be like this. He used to, oh, when he was in middle school, do all of this stuff and he's just gone to high school and he wants a clean state and to be like the mature cool every man.

But he used to write like fan fiction basically about this world and the character that he built for it. And now this girl is obsessed with that version of him, the middle school version of him. And is constantly trying to get him like back into that lifestyle. Oh. And it comes out as the show develops.

That she adopted a lot of this because her dad died and it was a way that she could create a world where she could believe she could still communicate with him in a way. Oh. So she's in an objectively worse. Like world and state than the girl and the depressed anyway, like both of these enemies are girls around the same age.

Both of these girls are social rejects. Both of these girls are girls that most of the people in their class, when they look at them, would look at them with derision. But one of these girls is living an amazing life where she is like clearly thrilled with what's happening every day. Yes.

I can't believe you have roller skates in your shoes. Are you a kid? They provide excellent mobility. Also with these, when I come under enemy fire, clang, clank, dun.

And the other girl is living a, a living nightmare.

I am so lonely.

What's up there? There's some weird girl standing outside. May they all come back as shaking their next lives.

And the difference between them is a few things. One, it's personal choice. It's how do they contextualize a lot of, if, if you look at like maga, right? One of the sort of, the totems of Maga, of Maga jokes of maga art, of like the back color of like man's world, which is so, you know, new, right?

That it was in a magazine mocking the new, right? They, what was it? New Yorker. They drew a man's world cover on the wall. Oh, the NPR. Yeah. Yeah. So, so even NPR is like, yes, if you are a new right, you have your man's world, you know, thing. They had like this, this triumvirate of a big T word anime girl Trump, and then Shinzo Abbot.

And, and Shinzo Abe is part of this because of the memes, like Shinzo Abe protecting Trump from the grave, like when he was almost shot or the, the Reddit witches saying, we keep trying to cast a spell on Trump, but whatever we do, we can't seem to get his numbers down in the polls. And then they'll post this as like a Shinzo Abe going like this you know, or you know, half babies, you know, Shinzo Abe, and then like see you letter space cowboy.

And. We know like. I don't think anyone who's making these jokes, and so Abe is really doing this. He's really out there protecting Trump. What they are doing is, in the same way this girl like throws out her hand, like, I'm opening the, the doors on this train. They are doing that with this. They are leaning into something that we're all like, yeah, but it's more fun to pretend that Shinzo is out there.

Forwarding. Yeah, it's, it's choosing a world that's not necessarily real, but. Committing to the bit and loving it, having a lot of fun, nothing works. That's not s, it's like the adult version of pretend and it totally does work.

, this is a magic potion. It'll replenish your magical energy. The bureau hides it in plain sight.

Yeah. And people can look at you guys and they'll be like, well, so much of, you know, when I see some of your rhetoric and you're talking about like the urban monoculture is being like, so on, like out there, you know, searching for your, you know, band of misfits for like all different.

You know, tribes and coalitions and races. You know, you got your dwarves and your elves and your, and your high elves, and then your, your hobbits. I, I don't know what we would be within this, this coalition we're what? Dwarves probably. And the, the cast, the highs Aren because we wanna modify humans.

They, they, they, no, but the point being is you, , they have this, coalition and this is the way we really see it. And they're like, and Maga sort of paints itself as fighting this like, apocalyptic battle for like human civilization. Yeah. And like, aren't they delusional? And it's like, no, it's useful in terms of guiding action and getting people excited and it's fun and you're right.

And exactly this very Christian fuddy-duddy approach to life that's very low energy. Is also something I actually saw on a piece that came out today in Christianity Today. Mm-hmm. The publication, Christianity Today called Neither Pitting Nor Pedestal by Kate Lucky. And she even writes about us that I.

Well, she, she refers to one of our our, our Loosened Car Seat Law Executive Order, and our National Medal of Motherhood Executive Order, and then says that idea came via draft executive order from Simone and Malcolm Collins. Two of the most provocative figures in an informal prenatal list, coalition of conservative religious family values, types, and catastrophic techno utopians.

Members of the latter group, the Collins' believe that declining birth rates will prove apocalyptic, and that having children is a civilization, civilization saving imperative. So you're totally right that this. Low energy. She's like, can't we be lower energy about this? Yeah. Like can't, yeah. What? Why are they so extra?

Why do they have to catastrophize this? Why are they techno utopians? Like she frames it as like, well of course, you know, tism is, is of the normal Christian family values people and then it's these crazy cos player LARPers who have no reason to be here. So you're absolutely right that we are. Very consistently framed and categorized that way, but we're also having a lot more fun than they are.

I get. Who are you? The one who wield the mule.

First level seal activated magical output. Increased

beep from this. Wow.

Cut it out and give us a hand.

No, the thing is,, it's one of these things where what's very important to understand is we understand where we're LARPing, we understand where the lines are. We don't actually expect Zo Abe to have our back. Yeah. But as you've said before too, and I, I think this is 100% accurate, all culture is a LRP.

Yes. Their l just is lame. But the, the point I'm making, Simone is yes, it's a LRP. Yes. It's out there. Yes, it's over the top, but it is all over the top with an end goal, right? Yes. Like, it's not like we are we allow. Inaccurate beliefs about reality to cloud our vision in a way that leads to misplaced action.

Hmm. That is where you have problems, right? Like where you believe in the magic or whatever. And so you, you, you spend your money on Etsy spells, or you, you know. There, there are ways that this can go wrong, but what the new right has done is normalized the joke of it while also LARPing with it. You have to really appreciate though that we do literally live in an age where there are at least a handful of people.

Who probably make their entire income by selling magical spells on the internet. And I really love that. That is, you have a whole episode about that if people want to go to it. Yeah. But, but I'm thinking here about like, you know, freedom Tunes channel I really love. He probably wouldn't like us. We, I don't know.

But he does these great cartoons and one when the left freaked out about like eating dogs and cats comment by Trump is, he made a whole video about like, migrants dancing was like forks and knives around a dog. They're cooking and then leftists keep coming up and explaining like, this is likely not accurate.

And what's funny is the point we don't care, like the point of the joke is. We don't care whether it's true, it's the gist of it that we care about. Right? The gist of it is if people are coming over with vastly different cultural values than ours, and normal Americans end up suffering as a result of this we don't care that you're like, whoa.

There, there wasn't a hard confirmed report about that. Like a lot of people just feel like, Hey, it's not cool that the government doesn't have, its. It's business in order for taking care of me as a citizen. Why is it taking care of non-citizen? That's really the, the basis of it anyway.

Eat the cat.

Eat the cat. Eat the cat. Eat the cat. There have been no credible reports of specific claims of pets being harmed, injured or abused. Eating the dogs. They're eating the cats. Eat the cat. Eat. Eat the cat. Eat the cat. They're eating the cat. They're eating the dogs. Cat. Eat. Eat the cat. Eat the cat. Eat the cat.

Eat the cat. Eat the cat. The Springfield, Ohio Police Department has debunked this very bizarre. And very hateful. Eat the cat. Eat the cat.

But the, the point I'm making is, is that when leftists attack this, they think that they're trying to convince us that like immigrants aren't actually eating dogs and cats.

And I'm like, that is literally irrelevant. And if anything, it's funny that you are so working yourself up in knots to try to convince us of that because. This is like a vibe for us, right? Mm-hmm. And the other thing that's really clear throughout the differences between these two animes is in gu emote where she's, she desperately wants the validation of everyone.

She doesn't really have any friends. She doesn't really know these other people who she wants validation from, but she's classic spoony, upper middle class, middle class female angst. She, yeah, she wants to be popular. She wants the other girls and boys to want to talk to her and to think she looks cool.

Like, she'll do things like practice, like cool looking poses in the mirror before going to school and then try them at school. And when other people don't react you know, she'll like, have a breakdown, you know, like the, the other girl. Meanwhile is like trying to create like little stand-ins for like magical girl powers and like goes at school or like, she has a friend that, that has ponytails, but she attaches things to the end of the ponytail so she can swing them like a magical girl would in like a battle.

Oh, that's. So cute. And there's like a, and, and they know that this is, like, there's a scene where like they create like a summoning circle and the show does this fun thing of constantly switching between what they're seeing. And then with the people who aren't buying into their alternate world are seeing, and then it switches to what everyone else is seeing.

And it's the girls like spinning around in circles. And, and, and around them is like a concentric circle of like Christmas lights you know, that they, that they've made to be their magical portal or, or whatever. I'm like, they're having a blast. You can be like, but it's just Christmas lights and it's like, stop being such a downer, man.

Like, we're having fun here. But the important thing about these girls in, in this one is they don't want the validation of everyone. In fact, they don't care what most of the other students think. She cares about what people with values that align with her values. Think that's why she goes after the boy who had written these like fan fictions that she got really into.

That's why it was the other girlfriends that she hangs out with or that end up being drawn to her. And this guy they're the other few people that play this like pretend way of living life, right? Mm-hmm. You know? And they care about what each other think, but they don't care about what the rest of the class thinks.

And so there isn't ever this. You know, I think that that's such an important thing to redirect your life around. And it's something that this older, an anti MAGA Republican class, right? That they're going out there and they're like, well, you wouldn't wanna do anything that would have people look, look down on you.

You know, you wouldn't wanna do anything that would make you look weird. You wouldn't wanna, and I think if you look at like the garishness of a lot of the things that Trump does you see. No, he wants to appeal to specific people, but he doesn't care about everyone. Like most people would think.

His design is pretty trashy. Yeah. If you look at like, pretty much anything Elon does, he just seems to be too autistic to, to, to notice. He, he likes, you know, the trolling if you look at us it's not that we don't care what people think. We care what people with aligned the values think right. You know, if, if we bring somebody in, we don't regard the opinion of many people because their values are not aligned with us, and therefore they're not relevant to us.

Why would you care about somebody like that? Yeah. Like they're not like you. They don't have the same values as So what makes other people so afraid of this? Do they assume that the people who's regard they're attempting to garner. Have aligned values with them, or they're just, they're not thinking about it at all.

They don't have their own values. What, what is it? I think it's that they don't really have their own values. I think it's that they value social conformity above all else, and they're just mad that what society is socially conforming around is changing. They were, it's a class of people who grew up and were Christians, or were Catholics or were Jews because everyone around them was Christian or Catholics or Jews.

Mm-hmm. And, and this is what was, you know, prestigious and this is what was normal. And they laughed at the, you know, liberals because the liberals, well, they weren't conforming in the right way. They, they weren't like, you know, the proper people. But now by every standard, the proper people. Are the, the urban monoculture are the progressives, and these people are just sort of like left shouting at the wind, right?

Like, ah, yeah, how dare you, how dare you change and how dare you change? And, and what's going on here? Where, where is the good old conservative of the past who just, you know, never offended anyone and always, and, and. Why did that form of conservatism die out? Why did the, well, we don't wanna, you know, rustle any Jimmys here because the left figured out that they were very easy to control.

Hmm. All you needed to do was pretend to be offended and they would back down. And and so they, and we've seen this, the left really weaponize this strategy is pretend that something that is a normal thing to do is just like, how could you even begin to say something like. There was only men and women, right?

Like, you know, the, how, how could you say something like that? That's is so outlandishly offensive. And, and, and then they, they capture that conversation because people like this guy would've been like, oh, well, if somebody's getting offended, I, I guess this is where I stop. And then the other culture, the culture that went into conservative was like, no, let's lean into.

Being the weird anime girl. Let's, or do you think it, I mean you, you did one episode for example, on, on discussed driven cultures, and one thing that also stands out to me in that neither pitting nor pedestal article that I mentioned to you is she mentions on several occasions that things about us give her the ick that like.

She doesn't, she, she appreciates that, for example, that we're against eugenics. And yet our concept of Polygenics still gives her the ick. And she appreciates other things that we do, but she still doesn't like them. I think so. So it's interesting. So look, she's don't, don't you think this is discuss driven too though?

I mean, I feel like that's a big factor. I think it's discuss driven, but I think what people like this don't realize is how because you know, she works for an old conservative outlet, right? So she probably got this job and like the old conservative regime appealing to older conservatives who don't really realize culture has changed.

Hmm. And so. You know, she thinks that she's signaling like her own status with this piece. She thinks she's signaling how, like, well, you know, I am like one of the, the good ones, right? Like I know, you know what's normative and what's not normative, and I shame non-normative behavior. But the thing about the new conservative culture, whether it's the new right or maga.

Is that if you go out there and you list, like, you try to drive other people's behavior by being like, oh, this thing that you're doing is, is ick, or this thing that you're doing is ick. People are generally gonna be like. Sort of push you out and not really like you because they're like, oh, you're going out there trying to control other people.

Like this worked in the last conservative ecosystem. This is not something that works in this conservative ecosystem. In fact, this is something that the Wokes do. Like when she goes out there and says, oh, they're giving me the ick. I'm like, oh, so you're using a woke structure of argument there. You're being like, don't you see how weird you are?

Don't you see how different you are? Why don't you act more like what the universities say we should be acting like? Why don't you act more like what the proper people in society say you should be working?

Mm-hmm.

Like, and so I think that it's interesting is that she thinks that she signaling, you know, her status and she is to a certain community of like older school, you know, aging people from like the evangelical revolution.

Totally. But her message. I think invalidates her in the eyes of a lot of younger conservatives, which is why we're seeing younger conservatives move to things like YouTube watching our videos. I'd be very surprised if something like her article got as many views as like an average one of our videos.

Like that's just the way things are these days because this is the new. Like it's just more fun. Like as soon as people realize you can do this without acting the way that she's acting, you're like, oh, this is fun. You know, you see somebody shaming this stuff, especially when they're shaming like fairly normal and like, not particularly over the line positions of ours.

Like, Hey, we should be awarding mothers. Like, and she's like, well, I don't know. That could ruffle some Jimmy Awarding mothers. Well, literally the argument she makes actually is like, well, but awarding mothers implies that they make some kind of sacrifice that being a mother. Is is is hard and that it neutralizes your personality and she's putting all these things on it that don't even exist.

Like Well, no, but I mean, I think that this is what she's, she's like, oh, and she stays. Obviously being a mom is a sacrifice. Like obviously it is. It's hard. What are you talking about, lady? Like my wife works her butt off like being a mom. Right. And you work your butt off being a dad. Yeah. Contributing to the next generation is a sacrifice.

And you can say, well, it's fun and everything like that, but like why shouldn't we be honoring that sacrifice? Well, yeah. And here she is. She is one toddler or child and she says that she's prenatal list, but here she is saying like the articles literally titled Neither pity nor Pedestal, that like parents should not be pedestal and parents should not be Pitied.

And that exactly a problem with prenatal policies is they do either or both of those things and it's like. Well, no, but it's this type of conservative just doesn't have kids. Yeah, no, she's, it doesn't seem like she's super stoked to have more herself. It's, it's odd. Yeah. This low energy. Well, I mean, part of me wonders, like, I, I could see that this, this, this could exist and be sustainable in a pretech age where you're very afraid of being kicked out of your village because that means death, but.

We don't live in that age anymore. So it's a little different. Yeah. Well, I mean I think that that these cultures and these people, like, it's one of these things where like they're out there and they're like, well what do you think of us shaming you? And I was like, I think as much of you shaming me as a character in Genevo would think of a character in like Moto was like concerned that that, the Genevo girls are acting weird. It's like, yeah, but you're sitting there depressed in a corner with no friends. Like, what? Why, why is what we are doing? So we're having fun here. Like, come join the fun side. Come join the the anime girls and Zo Aase Magic and. You know,, the four chan and trolling and weird grammar and language like you get was like Bronze Age pervert.

And I mean, I think the, the importance on the weird side is also, you know, not attacking people unless they're attacking other people.

Mm-hmm.

Like this is where we want people to be. We want people to be over here on this side and understand that people can express vastly different beliefs. But as long as they are playing nice with everyone else on this side, we should always just be trying to positively signal.

Boost them like Bronze Age pervert has like radically different beliefs than we do. You know, zero HP Lovecraft has radically different beliefs than we do. But I've read their stuff and I'm like, it's interesting and definitely worth engaging with, you know, and I would encourage other people to, to engage with it.

Absolutely. Yeah. To get a variety of views and sharpen your own and you're not gonna really sharpen your own views and have stronger. Convictions if you can't contrast what you believe to what other people believe. So I totally am with you on that. What's I almost feel like also religion at its best is this, it is extra.

It is adding magical world elements and demons and. And angels and guardians and temptation and all of these additional bits of magic and intrigue to your life.

Yeah.

And the type of religion that I see practiced here is the, the type of religion that mostly has lost faith. I. Because the world isn't magical like that for that many, it's a gray religion is the only way I can say it.

Yeah. It sees the world in shades of gray instead of vibrant colors. Yeah. These people aren't speaking in tongues. These people aren't holding snakes. These people aren't talking to angels. These people, they're, they're not. And I think that they're also just kind showing up and going through the motions.

And I don't care what you do as part of your religion, but I, I see all of those extra actions, the things that people. Raise their eyebrows in, in reaction to seeing as a sign of really leaning in and having maybe a harder religion. So well. Yeah. But I also think that the, the thing about this, like leaning all in, going crazy with this, is that it effing works somehow.

Mm-hmm. You know, I, I've joked about how like us just sending in the executive orders is like that scene in Ger and Log where he just takes the other kins, like combine and he just sticks it in his head. And it somehow works.

We'll never know unless we try, will we? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH You see that? What do you think, Fuzzball? We're the same as you! They were able

to combine, you were right bro, you were right! Sure looks that way, doesn't it? Wait, how could you

And then it's like, that's not how you, what are you doing? That's not how you combine robots.

But that, that's, that's basically what we did is we just. Sent this out there. And almost like there's, there's a great gambling anime called oh God. I love that. It's like the gambling school anime so, so good. And I often think like us going into the world of these really petty. Press people who all wanted us to fail.

It was like entering this, this gambling school in this anime where it's all of these like high class cliques, like laughing at us, the people who don't know what they're doing and thinking about how they're going to cheat us. Like the way that they screw over every other like a new person into, into complete destitution was their like crooked press tactics because we're just so unsophisticated.

And that what they don't understand. Is that we love gambling. They don't understand is that we actually are quite good with the online trolling and press game. But also, like, for us, it's, it's the thrill, it's the fun of it that we're, we're there because it, we like it and they're there because they wanna win.

Yeah. It's hilarious when they freak out and they start ringing. Yeah.

and them trying to like outplay or destroy us they end up having a reporter. Ask Trump directly, you know, what do you think about these Protist policies? And he goes, well, they sound like a good idea to me. And I'm like, I wasn't gonna be able to get a policy directly to Trump, but thank you for getting a policy directly to Trump on my behalf, through your panic.

Like. And then they end up like one of those, because the, the way it always works in the gambling one is some girl will take this girl and they'll have this scam and this plan to screw her over. And then what they realize as it begins to play through is one she knows. Everything they're doing before they do it.

And two, she doesn't actually care about winning or screwing people over in the way that they do. She just really loves games of chance. Mm-hmm. And, and they always end up quite freaked out because they, they, they realize when they're not in control anymore. And I think that that's the way a lot of the press has been with us or the Guardian.

Like at first the Guardian was all nice. Like he, he, he, you know, like one of those anime girls, oh, we're going to screw over these simpletons. And as we began to talk with them more and more, the reporters were more like aggressively hostile to us because they were like, I know your strategies, I know your thing.

And I'm like, oh, I know you do. I know you do. So here's the plan. Come play with me. Medals to mothers. A very simple thing that will make you sound very misogynistic if you attack it. But the Nazis also did something like this. I mean, yes, the modern French government does this. Yes, Stalin did this. Yes, government throughout history, even the United States used to do this, but you are not gonna be able to resisting Nazis did it.

And so you are gonna go out there and you are going to attack a program that will make it look like you're attacking mothers because. You know, this is the one again, we give medals to scientists who sacrifice for the future medals to warriors who sacrifice for the future medals to industrialists. Why not mothers?

Oh, because it's something only women can do. You know, you are going to look misogynistic, and I can tell you every single part of my plan, and I know you won't be able to resist making a fool of yourself. It's fun. It, it is ultimately quite fun.

It's like I'm, I, I hold them from punching themselves in the face for a minute and I'm like, you sure you want me to? Like, you're just gonna punch yourself in the face again. And they're like, no, I got it this time. Well, what I think is interesting about the shows that you highlighted though, especially the ones that have these characters in them, that.

The audience understands our delusional is that there's a certain allure to that lifestyle, and I think most people just don't know how to bridge that gap. How do you get to that point where you can dance like there's no one looking right? You know, people say that, but very few people find themselves capable of doing that.

Maybe it's a lifetime of practice. But I feel like most of our audience already has this capability. You know, they, 'cause they're autistic. I, that doesn't count. That's like a, a free pass. No, no, no. Hold on. I don't think it's just being autistic. I think it's, it's being imaginative, being engaged was the world being able to be like, I am in a fight for human civilization.

And yes, there may be several layers of abstraction between like my daily actions and that. Battle but like why not treat every morning when you wake up like civilization? Depends on your actions. Mm-hmm. Like why not treat every job you do, every email you send, like you are in a, now I'm not saying act like a crazy person, where other people think you're a crazy person, you know you are dressed up.

One thing that's happened to me recently is from fans. I realize now that I'm interacting with, with random people, some of which are smart, some of which are complete idiots is people do not realize how much, not using proper email etiquette makes you look like a complete idiot. Like if you send me an email, I.

Like if you are a, a, a random person or a, a lower status person sending an email, now it's okay for high status people to send lower status email people emails that aren't properly formatted. But if you're like a fan reaching out to us and you don't write like, hi, Malcolm comma, body of email, best name, like, I'm like, oh, this person probably has like a mental illness.

Or they weren't educated or, because o one thing I can know is somebody's like, well, I'm a genius and I feel all these, and I, and I don't do that. And I'm like, it doesn't matter. If you're a genius, you're never gonna be able to raise VC money. You're never gonna be, because if you didn't know to do that to me, you definitely didn't know to do that.

When you're trying to raise money. You definitely didn't know to do that when you know you were going out and you know, trying to build B2B partnerships. So like, yeah, you might be a genius, but that genius is all trapped in your head. And true genius is knowing how to interact with other people in a way that would actually engage them rather than a way that masturbates your own self-image.

Yeah, not wrong. Well, I mean, this is just true. A lot of people just engage in a way that masturbates their own self-image. That's Well, and I mean, especially now, people have no excuse when it comes to polished looking communication because you can literally ask an AI like this professional, you can put in your drl or what you think is acceptable and just be like, Hey, can you make this a little more acceptable?

And guess what? It's gonna find something wrong and it's gonna fix it for you. So, yeah. But I think, I don't know, I think a lot of people just don't realize that, and there are probably also a lot of people out there who are mentally ill and capable of doing that. Yeah. Or too personally arrogant or self-important to do it.

Mm-hmm. And, and here I would note a final anime that I think refs is because if you look at something like Chi Chio or whatever, you're looking at this anime and you're like, okay, but like the characters aren't successful, they're just kids, et cetera. That doesn't mean that you can't. Combine the pretend with being actually competent and being successful.

A great anime. That's an example of this. Of the anime I've mentioned, it's my favorite to watch is imminence and the shoutouts. I. And it's a, this one's so familiar. What's this one about? It's an ecade about a guy who is actually quite competent, who ends up getting ecade that means brought back in another world.

I've, I've written one of those that I gave you to listen to was an ai, still see how that turns out. But it's called the arrogant pragmatist. It Ecade. But anyway, so I, I'll, I'll try to add that one to this video as well. If you guys wanna check out like some of the stories I've been trying to put together with ai.

So, you know, it's. It's, it'll be a bit different than a traditional story 'cause it's more like me playing through an EA, okay. But in this one, so he gets e aade and then he is like, you know what, I'm gonna pretend like I'm running like a shadowy organization that's fighting other shadowy organizations.

And of course other shadowy organizations turn out to actually exist. And he is actually quite competent. And he actually ends up building out this giant network that's fighting these other organizations through what he sees as just like. Goofing around, but like everybody else loves it because he is being extra with everything he's doing.

The whole villainous behind the scenes outfit and poses and meeting with people, conspiratorially, and people wanna like lean into that, even if it's a little fake. And I think that when we dropped the. The disgust based moral framing, like, oh, don't do that. That's like weird and ick. Like, I think people realize it's like, oh, as soon as I don't care about people who think like that anymore, well now I can sort of be extra.

I. You know, I can, I can have God Emperor Trump and talk about him. This was a big meme, you know, during previous election cycles that comes from War Hammer and they've made like giant floats of God, emperor Trump and everything like that. And it's, it's fun. People will see the White House press account.

They're like, I. The, the White House press account tweeted something like check out the covid.org page. I think you'll find this pretty funny. Oh, no. And they made the whole page just like an explanation of how the lab leak scam was tried to be covered up and how it all points back to Fauci. Oh, no.

And, and people were like, French outlets were like, oh, like this is not proper manners. You cannot do this. 'cause they attach price account. And meanwhile everyone else is like, what? Like it serves a purpose. It's funny. It's more engaging. Like, what do you mean you're trying to shame us into your manners in a way that hurts the message.

And this is really what I'm talking about with something like sending proper emails. Versus doing tweets, right? Like with tweets, you're doing this to a broad audience. You're trying to get people to engage with it. When it comes to sending like properly structured emails it's like, you know, the single target of this and your goal is to get that person on your side.

Do you want to actively insult the person, the one person who's reading this with something like a tweet like that, we know that we'll insult a portion of the readers, but I personally. As somebody who's watching this happen like that, I know the other half of the readers are so angry at how this insults it.

Hmm.

And one, you are seeing shrewdness and the other, you're seeing, I guess, a lack of education or a lack of world knowledge. Yeah. Okay. So what you're trying to do is, is highlight the differentiation between irreverence and. Foolishness. Like basic, yeah. Foolishness or neglect. It's strategic irreverence.

And there is, and there is direct self-indulgent foolishness. Mm-hmm. And the difference between the two is a strategic irreverence is usually meant to signal and to play and to have fun in the wider world. Mm-hmm. The, the foolishness is typically meant to build up your own ego, to make you think you're a bigger and better deal than you really are.

Hmm. Okay. That makes sense. That totally makes sense. Interesting. Do you think though, that there's a genetic component to this? Like is it worth it to encourage people to consider this lifestyle? What if a lot of people just can't pull it off? I mean, yeah, there is a genetic component. It's worth it to talk about it as something that's happening.

And I do think that some people can't pull it off. You know, they can, they can live in the, the wor it, it genuinely feels like that fun movie about the 1950s where like part of the community's living in black and white and part of the community is living in color. What? Pleasantville? Smallville.

Smallville? Yeah. Smallville. No. Smallville is the Smallville Superman reboot. I'm pretty sure it's Pleasantville. Hold on. Yeah. Pleasantville. Yeah. Fun movie by the way, if you haven't watched it. I mean, it's got sort of woke messaging, but it's a well constructed movie. And I think quite entertaining. And I don't think it's like that woke.

It's like, racism is bad. It's like, okay. Like I'm okay with that message. But it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's, it's a well-delivered version of that message. But anyway, the point I'm making is, is I get the impression that a lot of these people are living in a black and white world. While you and I are living in a, in a, in a a what, what's the word?

Dynamic color world. Technic, technicolor. Technicolor world. Any thoughts, Simone? I would. I would add that there's one more thing that we constantly refer to on this front, which is the Adams family. Yes. And we love the Adams family because they choose to contextualize stuff that the average person sees as creepy or to use common parlance.

Ick. And they love it. They find it very entertaining. They don't care what other people think because they know what they like and. They are, are politely tolerant of other people if unhappy with their choices. But yeah, I think that that's kind the thing. They a happier life. The joke of the Adam family is that while they are not monsters, they are viewed as monsters because they're so culturally different.

But in the end, Gomez and Morticia love each other more than any other couple. Yes. Their relationships with their kids, they're stronger than any other person they meet. Mm-hmm. The kids' relationships with each other are stronger than anyone else. They meet everything about the family is actually with the goal of wholesomeness, more wholesome.

And I think that's one of the things people see when they meet with us. They're like, oh my God. At the end of the day they are actually like. Way more wholesome and in love and, and doing great, like things for their family and living this good life than other people are. Like it. We can mock them for being non culturally normative, but this seems to be working and the Adams family isn't the only example of this.

The other really good example is Legally Blonde for like a nineties example of this, where like clearly she shamed for acting this way. Clearly it's non culturally normal. And I think legally Bond might even within this conversation be the better example because I was talking about something like knowing how to properly format an email.

Mm-hmm. In Legally Blonde, sort of the story arc is, is she learns how to act in and do things in a way that fits and doesn't like. Randomly offend like other people in the legal profession and stuff like that, that is legally professional, but still within her own cultural framing. And oh, like, here's my resume.

It's scented. Yeah. And pink. Yeah. You know, she's doing it the right way. Mm-hmm. But she's doing it with cultural framing. Mm-hmm. So she's not, not showing respect, but she's still showing who she is and how she's different. Yeah. She's clearly different. You can see that. But also, it's still a little, it's still a little weird.

Yeah. But I think, you know, we've had people reach out to us before in a way that is both professional and extra. Like, I'm reaching out to you also, here's a customized video. Pitch deck that I created, and here's how my values are aligned with your values. And we're like, wow, this is, we've never seen anyone do this before, ever.

This was the Bruno guy, right? Who, who now Bruno did this? Yeah. R Fab ai. I was like, I love you instantly. Like you get it. You, you're doing this different, no one has ever done this before with us. And I wanna work with you. Yeah. You're part of the family now you're in professional and extra, right? Like yeah.

Mm-hmm. That is what we were looking for. And you don't, we we're okay with people who are just professional people who are just professional and competent. I, I still wanna work with them. The, the, the only group that we don't wanna work with is people who try to shame or ick other people into not being extra Yeah.

But people who are just professional and competent. I'm not like you're part of the family, Bruno's part of the family. He's in. You know what I mean? But I think we're seeing this across other professions as well now because there's like bigger areas. So for me, like this, this Shades of Gray world is, there's like a part of the world that has just tried to blind themselves to anything made by ai.

Whether it's AI or AI or ai. Pro. And they're like, oh, well, like I, and clearly they think that they're signaling some form of status or moral superiority. Yes, yes. And I'm like, bro, you look like a vegan. Like, it, it's, it's, you're, you're not eating the, the tasty thing. And you think everybody thinks that you're like really moral, but actually we just think you're a curmudgeon.

Yeah. Anyway. Love you dad. Like the people who didn't like electricity when it was released, or, and this is a big thing, by the way. Yeah. A lot of people would like, thought it was high status, like, did not use electricity. Mm-hmm. Just, ooh, oh, it's so dangerous. Don't you know, what can electrocute an elephant?

Yeah. It yeah. I, I, I love your approach to life. I love that Every day with you. Feels like my birthday and Christmas and Halloween all at the same time. And. Life feels so much more real this way. Oh no, I agree. Than ever did before. It's like extra real, like, it, it, it is like not being sedated. Whereas their version of life feels so sedated.

Mm-hmm. So, thank you, thank you for being extra and vivacious. And I, I do think that in the end, our kids are more likely to wanna pass down our culture because. This is a culture that gets you out of bed in the morning. I mean, I think, you know, like there are other versions of it that, that don't have to give you the ick if our version gives you the, like, I think the opus day great example of like extra, you know, totally leaning in.

But not, you know, very different culturally that I would also consider to be super cool like this. And, and very gung-ho with how they approach life. But some people, I guess, would see it as like, ooh, what to like, bring your religious fervor to, to work. That's weird. Why would I do that?

Yeah, no,

that's cool.

Like, yeah, no, you act you should bring your religious fervor to work 100%. And do you mind, like, this isn't just like, this is, in a way, this is what like or ultra Orthodox Jews are doing, like every day, they're like totally. They're, they're being a hundred percent, you know. Yes. All right. Love you to daimon.

I love you too. Do you want for dinner? Mango curry with extra chili peppers. So half the amount is last night. And coconut rice or fried rice, that's reheated. Or would you like the Burmese Thai basil chicken, the Burmese tag basil chicken. That stuff is so good. Okay. Good thing we made a big batch of it then.

I'm so glad. That's good. I'll that wait a little bit of extra peppers, right? It needs extra peppers or does it not, but fewer. Fewer. Fewer than last night. Significantly fewer are not in crushing pain. And then I will finish your laundry and hopefully we'll go to bed early so that I'm not sleep deprived anymore.

Alright. Hey, the cruise is tomorrow. So excited. It's gonna be amazing. I love you. I love you too.

And girl. Yeah. Little Orphan Annie, I'm familiar with the concept. I haven't seen it. It looks depressive. You haven't seen the movie? Well, the, there's this woman named Miss Hannigan who runs the the orphanage and she's kind of fabulous. Like, as a kid, I thought she was evil and stuff, but now when I think back to her, she's just like this perpetually drunk woman wearing a slip, like languishing around the orphanage, making the children do all the work.

And I'm like. She is raising resilient children. Oh.

Oh boy.

Oh my gosh. Well, Simone, I, oh. I found a, I knew I got sucked into a new great AI story I've been working on. Oh, no. I found out how to like, synthesize them, edit them, and then turn them into audio books for people. So I'm gonna be posting those with episodes.

That one today that I was working on, that I'm so excited about. . I'm having a lot of fun with it.

So I've got that going on. Wonders never cease. The other fun thing today is we were rejected from Andreesen. Horowitz was our second application. Ooh. Ooh. We got to, the final round was most of school and the game project, and now we've gotta figure out how to make them work on our own. I mean, the school is done and really nice and we just gotta get it in front of more people.

So that's where we are was at. And the primary reason we were excited about Andreessen and the school is we felt that sales would be easier if we weren't Andreessen backed school, but. No, but it's made, it's working. Yeah, it's working I think on its own merits. A lot of people use it daily. Yeah. Yeah, way more than I'd expect.

And well, I mean, I get it because I am, I'm addicted. Like I can't, I am like, I'm just gonna try it for five minutes and then two hours later like, what, what happened? And yet I know everything about Chinese architecture now. What's going on? So if you are interested in trying it, it's a Socratic tutor combined with a game like a tech tree you would have in a video game.

And you can find [email protected] or pia.io.

In this episode, we dive into a series of topics starting with controversial statements from Hillary Clinton regarding immigration and fertility rates. We then move to analyze unexpected trends in cultural behaviors and fetishes across different American regions. The hosts also discuss the perceived failures and intentions behind the Democratic approach to immigration, highlighting the recent reactions of institutions like the Episcopal Church and their handling of white South African refugees. Towards the end, there is a reflection on historical and cultural differences within American populations, including a personal anecdote involving film crews and the hosts' children. Join us for an engaging and thought-provoking discussion.

Hello Simone. I am excited to be here with you today. And today we are going to be exploring through a few chains of evidence starting with Hillary Clinton. Great replacement theorist.

Now, apparently,

Conspiracist Malcolm, not even theorist, she's a, she's making it happen.

She, she is going out there. And, and telling these lies that immigrants have far more children than native born Americans, and that that's why they are being brought into the country. It's not a good look in advocating for this.

the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025, despite Trump saying he knew nothing about it, if you had read it, it's all in there. It's all in there. return to the family, the nuclear family , return to being a Christian nation return to, you know, producing a lot of children. Which is sort of odd because the people who produce the most children in our country are immigrants and they wanna.

Deport them. So none of this adds up. But you know, one of the reasons why our economy did so much better than comparable advanced economies across the world is because we actually had a replenishment, because we had a lot of immigrants legally and undocumented. Who had a you know, larger than normal by American standards family.

And, and she even points out illegal and legal immigrants. And you're not like, oh, maybe she just means legal immigrants. No, she's explicitly like. We are doing okay demographically because we, the Democrats got you guys so many illegal immigrants and they're having way more kids in the native population and that's why we brought them in, but.

I wanna be contrasting this sort of like weird mask off moment with Hillary Clinton, which was fun 'cause she also cited our policy proposals in this. So now I know Hillary Clinton is watching stuff that we are putting out. But we're gonna be contrasting this with also the reaction to the very small handful of 60 white immigrants from South Africa that has caused massive changes in leftist policy positions.

For example, the Episcopal Church in the United States shut down its programs to help immigrants just so it wouldn't have to help this very small pool of white immigrants. Wow. And for a lot of them it was like, wait, wait, what about the people they care about? Well, apparently they care about them less than making sure they don't help a single white immigrant.

That's pretty screwed up. Like even if I was like super racist against white people, but there were some white people in a larger sample of non-white people that I wanted to help.

I don't know, like. I mean, we see now the way they would respond, they'd say, we won't, we won't do it. We won't help out of principle.

And I think that this is the horrifying aspect to all of this, and as, as, as we go into this, is we are increasingly seeing, and so often it's like slippery slope stuff with, with. You know, far left positions where they'll say, oh, you know, we would never say that. We would never fight for that. Like, that's just a crazy slippery slope argument.

That's a conspiracy theory. And then five years later they're like, well, why do you think we were letting in so many immigrants? You know, it's like this is the what, this is what's always been the case, don't you know? And we're like, wait, you said this was a conspiracy theory. You very firmly told us this was a conspiracy theory like five to 10 years ago.

In fact, the Keisha cancellation that just happened, the Fox Zoo girls, the Sweet Fox Foxing girl who was canceled by a CINA byte this girl. She, and, and, and note here, when I say set, I'm not saying that all trans people aresa bytes, I'm saying that there is a specific category of human that has spent their entire life searching for pleasure and self validation, and it has scrambled their mind.

And now all they can do or get satisfaction from is hurting other people. And, and so. She was canceled. What they used to cancel her was saying that she was a great replacement theorist when what she was doing in that very video, which she was accused of, was simply disgusting. A speech given by a leftist politician in the UK who had these concerns.

Like a elected politician, one of the, I think one of the heads of the major parties in the UK right now. So we're, we're gonna be discussing all of this together. I, I also said, it's funny with Hillary covering one of our policy proposals that this isn't the first time.

As I posted the other day, this very blatant effort to basically send a message most exemplified by Vance and Musk and others, that you know what we really need from you, women are more children. , And what that really means is you should go back to doing what you were born to do, , which is to produce more children.

And they're talking about, you know, medals. If you have six children so this is another performance about concerns they allegedly have for, , family life.

So this is just another one of their, you know, make America great again by returning to the lifestyles and the economic arrangements of not just the 1950s. I mean, let's keep going back as far as we can and, you know, see what happens.

Jedidiah, this is my roommate. And what shall I call this embodiment of virtue? Virtue. Come again? Virtue, obedience, Hawkins. Good name, no doubt. Names do not carry us to the golden gates, for certain. No doubt. We're gonna have a bonfire out back, eat some s'mores. Your thirst for s'more will ultimately give you some less.

And you will be consumed upon the bonfire of vanity.

We're just gonna leave you two alone. I am never alone in the company of men. Come in, silence!

A sage choice which will make our gathering a blessed evening? I will be gone by evening. Those who court when the sun descends court the devil's design for certain? Ah, yes

People may not know this deep lore Malcolm, but Bill Clinton actually gave a speech about me a few decades ago over, probably three decades ago about at this point.

But it was at this event. Called Renaissance Weekend, which was this like exclusive event for influential people, and my dad was attending, and so I go and so all the kids who go have to give a speech to all the, to rooms full of famous people. And so I, I go and, and, and give a speech. And there was a cardinal in the room.

And the speech that I had given and that everyone else had given on the kids panel was on, the, the country, like states, like each of us chose a state and we researched it. It was a very kid project. Anyway, so this cardinal big mucky mutt comes up and he goes what do you think God is?

Or What do you think God is like? And all the, the other kids go down and they give the very generic answers, and I. Come up very confrontational, and I go first of all, sir, that is completely off topic. And, and then I say, and second of all, God is everything that I want to be. Bless. I, of course, saw this as a very, nothing

has changed.

I meant lightning hands.

I wanted palpatine powers. I wanted to be the most powerful entity in the universe and blah. Right? But they're, they're

reading this totally differently 'cause cute little boy saying it. So it just, assuming a boy wants to be faithful and good and just like Jesus and yeah.

So anyway, bill Clinton goes up against a speech at the event because apparently it went viral at the event that some little kid had said this and everyone was talking about it.

Bill Clinton goes up and I think he used me as like the center point of the speech and the speech was about how the next generation needs to be better than this generation and that, you know, young boys like this Malcolm Collins, well, they're gonna go and do big things one day they're gonna go and change the world one day.

Yeah.

Propose that mothers get medals so that his wife can defenestrate for them. For the, the audacity.

Suggesting that yes, his wife can come out and be like, now I'm the thorn in their side that they're reading about in papers. You wanted

the tine lightning hands. You're getting

there. Slowly but surely.

I am. I am forced torturing them from afar. That is, that is why we invite the press over. That's why we're doing this, is just to torture the Clintons. Oh my God. Oh my God. But it is. It is great. It is great. Okay, so. First before we go into the South African thing, because I think this is really telling, what were your thoughts on hearing this Clinton speech?

I was surprised because immigrant fertility levels just plummet after they come to the United States. The only immigrant. Fertility level that goes up from my understanding is South Koreans because, well, they

plummet based on their native country's fertility often. Mm-hmm. But it off in, in many cases historically.

Now, keep in mind, in Latin America today, I'm pretty sure now over half of Latin American countries are well below the US in terms of TFR. Higher fertility rate. Oh. But historically they were higher fertility rate and a lot of immigrants came from historically higher country. Well, I think a lot of older

generations just stick with stats that they've read 15 to 20 years ago.

So yeah, I mean, maybe she's just running off of information she knows. It also makes me think about recent information that's come out of Doge where they've, in doing basically small audits and samples of either asylum or illegal immigrant populations. Finding that some have indeed voted just makes me feel like there was a little bit more of this.

Yeah. We really are just going to bring in immigrants, illegal or otherwise and then ingratiate them to us and use that to gain a majority of the voting populace in the United States and that the expectation was that they would be high fertility. The expectation was that they would. The Democrats and that, that would help the Democrat.

Cause what they said this

very explicitly, you saw a lot of gloating of the Democrats says, oh, well, you know, the, the white voter is gonna become the minority voter and, and demographics are changing. And by this they meant, you know, more and minority voters and that that is going to make them the forever party.

And what they didn't expect, but every Republican ever, always said. Is that the Latin American vote is coming to the right. And in the last election, you know, over 50% of Latin American men voted for Trump, right? Like the vote has moved extremely to the right. And they always should have expected that.

I, I think one of the things that, that dims get so wrong about Latin Americans, because they view them through a racist lens of being a single culture the, the Latinx mythical culture is they don't understand how much Latin Americans are racist against other Latin Americans. Mm-hmm. That aren't their particular country or background.

Which we were horrified to discover when we. Oh, when we bought, yeah.

So our company, everybody who works with us is Latin American. And we regularly, because inter Latin American country racism is tolerant and normalized. Like, oh, you're a Cuban. Oh, you're a Venezuelan. Oh, you're a whatever. Like, you must be like X, Y, and Z or you can't handle this type of task.

And so we have to deal with that and it's very hard for us to deal with without ourselves crossing.

Here's the weird thing I, I was just listening this morning to someone talking in a podcast about how they grew up in a kind of colorblind environment, but it was one in which then everyone in his very diverse friend group growing up like would use racial slurs all the time.

And there's this weird, I don't know if it's a horseshoe or a full circle with racism where. When you get, there's, I, I almost feel like this like very happy medium where like people acknowledge stereotypes or tendencies or averages and make fun of them, but also don't use them to judge or stereotype other people.

Like they allow people to speak for themselves instead of, yeah. They're well,

what's

your point? You were saying that this is the way you, my point is that like, I don't know if our office was racist. I just think that they had huge, they'd be like,

no, no, no. Simone, Latin Americans,

Argentinians, do this.

And like,

yeah, some, some, but Latin Americans are actually fairly racist against other Latin Americans. Okay. If we example, you look at like Mexico, take Mexico as an example. Their policies. Remember when everyone freaked out about like the stop and ask for somebody's ID laws in Arizona that would like Sheriff Joe and how evil that policy was and everything, and how racist that's the standard policy in Mexico for, for, for the way they treat other Latin Americans like the, and in the US this policy was seen as horrifyingly racist.

So yeah, no, it's, it's pretty normalized. So you have that. So basically they tried to pull off a great replacement. They have admitted this now, but they were, they didn't get the stats right. They, they won. Completely missed that. Latin Americans are much closer to conservatives, culturally, and, and, and, and goal-wise.

And that two that they, drop in fertility rate dramatically after coming to the country to the point where they, they dwindle pretty quickly. And it makes sense, you know, you're putting them in an environment and in a culture that they haven't evolved alongside for very, very long periods of time.

And how much of who you are, is cultural and evolved, I think is hugely undersold. One of the graphs that you were showing me today, which just shook me because I was like, wait, what? That can't be that cannot be a thing, is you looked up polyamory on Google trends to see where it trended the most.

Well, because you had just said to me that some communities. I was starting to turn against it and I was like, that can't be, it has to be at peak right now, and it's not,

it's starting to trend downward in 2021

peak, but can you guess which state has the highest interest in polyamory? It's silver gonna, you're gonna hear this and you're gonna be like, oh, it must be one of those like far progressive states, right?

Yeah. Like

Massachusetts

or New

Hampshire

or Washington. A state or an environment that would've had a historic evolutionary reason where people who normalized to their partners sharing other people having more kids. That wouldn't be the one where polyamory is the biggest. No, it's Utah. It's Utah by a big margin team.

It, and, and I saw this and I was like, wow, sir. Like this hits the main population. And so, you know, not wanting to be, a stick in the mud, right? Like, I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look at my own culture. Right. I'm gonna be like, okay. I'm from the backwoods culture. We've done videos on it before.

This is a culture that is historically known for like extreme levels of violence. Like ripping out people's eyes was really common, was in it. If you look at the stereotype of someone from this culture in, in horror movies and stuff like this, the greater Appalachian culture, the hillbilly people, you know, they, they will hunt you down and kill you and eat you.

So I was like, okay. This is definitely gonna prove that this is not, a persistent phenomenon. So I'm like, I'm gonna look up for and see where it is most searched.

, this is a fetish for seeing people be eaten.

Okay. I was certain it'd be like Manhattan or, or California,

because who else is gonna be in an urban in whatever enough environment to even know about such a niche?

Right,

right.

So it was West Virginia. But again, stereotypes, stereotypes, the exist that is the, that is the heart of the greater Appalachian culture. So I was like. Oh my god. Stereotypes.

Now if you are a perceptive listener, you might be thinking to yourself, oh, come on Malcolm. That isn't the only negative stereotype about the greater Appalachian people. I noticed you didn't take time to search incest by region, and so I decided to, and yes, West Virginia and the greater Appalachian region has the highest search rates for incest as well.

Two very important notes here. This is not to say that the majority of people who are Mormon ancestry are into their partner sleeping with other people, or the majority of people who have. Backwoods ancestry, , are into, you know, hunting down and eating people or incest. , This is not to say I am into one of these things, , in the same way that a Mormon could find this interesting and cover this without being it in, into it themselves.

, We're just saying that the rates are slightly higher in these regions. , And we were able to predict, just guessing, okay, where would there have been evolutionary pressure for these unique arousal patterns? And then we did the searches and it came up. It's not like I did the searches and then I back put the data onto it, but I decided to be like, okay, well what is something That I have talked about finding uniquely hot. I have talked about thinking vampires are uniquely hot. Let's see if that is something that clusters with backwoods ancestry. So I did a search of that and wouldn't you know it, . Kentucky, Arkansas, Utah, West Virginia, and Louisiana. So again, very backwards, heavy. Was a Utah thrown in there. So that's an area where, where I and Mormons have, , overlap.

Okay, I decided to have a bit more fun with this question. So I Google Trends for s and m. In this case it came up so strong, West Virginia. I have never seen a search result. , This originally locked, the, the next highest one, , where West Virginia gets a hundred on this one. The next highest one is 69 in Louisiana.

Okay. I can't just be picking on my own people and Mormons here. So let's look at which search term is uniquely high in Catholic states, , states like California and Texas. Well, here you have NTR. You don't know what NTR is. .

which translates to being cheated on.

Specifically arousal that arises from the emotional distress of being cheated on, which would contrast it with something like polyamory as an arousal pattern.

As to what evolutionary pressure could have caused this, I have literally no idea. I.

That said, it doesn't seem to overlap with the general Catholic population, just the Latin American population. In fact, you can see that the NTR search term has an almost perfect overlap with the percent Latin American, a state is.

Okay, here's a fun one. Guess what is uniquely concentrated in the Cavalier or deep South cultural group search results for the term scat, which is what somebody would be searching for if they had a, , poo fetish. I wonder, I wonder why that is.

So I hate that I am the one who confirmed this. Uh, my cultural group is apparently literally and actually murderous incestuous hill people. and again, I need to clarify. This is not me saying I have any of those arousal patterns.

Or that the average person from this cultural group has these arousal patterns. It would still be, the minority of people within this cultural group just slightly higher than in other cultural groups.

Hello officer. . We have had a doozy of a day, a real doozy. there we were. Yep. minding our own business. Yep. When all of a sudden out of nowhere, these kids started killing themselves all over my property.

Yeah. Thi this one right here, he dove head first, right into the wood. Chipper in the woody right back there. There's another one who shoved the spear through his gullet I think they might be trying to kill the girl that we have inside. Look, girl, you know what? She can maybe explain the whole thing , if I hadn't have knocked her. Unconscious with a shovel on accident. On accident.

Yeah, she's in my bedroom.

But the point I'm making here is people's proclivities do co-evolve with a culture that they're in. And if you take somebody from one culture and you pick them up and you plop them in another culture, this is also why in the video where we pointed out why doesn't Christian work for East Asians?

And in that video we point out that despite the low fertility rates you see within Buddhist and Confucian culture in Korea, for example. Christians, both Protestants and Catholics have a lower fertility rate than Korean Buddhists or Confucians. And it's the same with Japanese. And we, we go across the region.

We said that this is a very persistent phenomenon. And it's, it, it, it only makes sense worse when we take in immigrants, we often put them into fertility shredders like the centers of large cities. So they have incompetently handled this. We are not great replacement theorists because I do not think it worked, but I do think that some people thought this was going to work.

Not to keep in mind, I don't know if it was intention to like replace the white population. I think the goal of this was to get a, a voter block that they thought they could control and manipulate. Yeah. Yeah. And they just catastrophically effed that up. As, as I've, I've also pointed out, because we're very close with the Latin American community, a lot of people don't know why the Latin American community went so far, right so quickly.

Mm-hmm. One of the big reasons was if you look at the LA riots you know, today, for example, Korean immigrants are, are famously pretty right-leaning compared to other Asian groups.

Fun fact, the only Asian group more conservative than Koreans is Vietnamese.

Mm-hmm. And one of the things that happened to their early communities in the United States is during the LA riots you know, they were a recent and poor immigrant group at the time.

And so their communities were around the black communities, and so they were the businesses that were targeted. And this where you get the famous, you know, Korean rooftop sniper. In, in the recent, while you wouldn't have heard about this on the news, the communities that were being burned down and the businesses that were being burned down were predominantly Latin American.

In these, these recent riots, and they did not go into the white neighborhoods really. They were just going to the adjacent neighborhoods that were easy to target. And while the news may not have covered this, Latin Americans transmit news and information about the world through extended family networks.

And all of them know about this. Like most Latin Americans I know have a family member who lost everything because of that. And they saw how. Both the liberals covering this up and the liberals not caring and cheering for this, you know, it's Tim Walt saying, you know, his, his wife smelled the fires of, you know, the like, oh, this is a great day.

During the burning. Those fires were likely first generation immigrant businesses burning down. You know, that's, that's what you were smelling. And, and you know, like one of those games where you make a choice in those old tell tell games and it goes, they will remember that, popped on screen when she did that.

Mm-hmm. They, they will remember this. So I, I think that, that it has been incompetently handled and it didn't achieve what they wanted it to achieve.

Yeah.

Now if I go to this other thing I thought was even more interesting because I, they've, they've come more out about this whole. No, it wasn't about immigrants for us, it wasn't about anything like that.

It was about specifically non-white immigrants, right? Yeah. So if you, here, you have the Episcopal Church through its Episcopal Migration Ministries. EEM announced on May 12th, 2025 that it would end its nearly 40 year partnership with the US government for refugee resettlement. And this is

just because for the first time.

In a, at least a very long time, we, we have a program for white refugees coming from South. They had to have, yes.

So this decision was made in response to federal, rural directives to resettle white, African, or immigrants from South Africa.

Hmm.

So this was only 60 people that they had to reset. We'll get into it, you know, there is an active genocide going on in Africa against them right now, you know?

And the excuse that they used is they said, well, these refugees. Shouldn't have gotten a bump over other refugees who have been waiting in the system. And I'm like, then why were you okay with the illegal immigrants? Like clearly they cheated the system. Why were you okay with them? And, and the answer is because that's not why they're mad about this.

They're mad about this because these individuals are white and because it highlights well,

and because Trump chose them when he is deprioritizing a whole bunch of other immigrant groups. That's, well, he's not deprioritizing

well, he, he is. It's slowing down other immigrant. You know, coming here. Okay.

Yeah.

Let's be honest. But

let's go into this other groups that shut down programs, right?

Yeah.

So the US Conference of Catholic Bishops Migration and Refugee Services, the largest refugee resettlement agency, also ended a. Century old program in April 20, 25, century.

Goodness gracious. Yeah.

The Church World Service, another face bait group was the one organization that didn't of, of the major organizations.

And I point out here when people are like, oh, why don't you just come back to the classic churches? Why are you this weird techno puritan thing? Why do you actually read the Bible? Just, you know, let the Catholic clergy handle that for you. And I think that this is why, you know, I look at what the Episcopals have done.

I look at what the Catholics have done, and I see that their organizations were some of the first and most thoroughly corrupted by the, the urban monocultural virus. That this isn't like some far left organization. This is the Episcopal Church in the United States that did this. These organizations are the architects of the most dastardly policies that the left can devise.

Okay. These organizations want you gone. They don't want you to be a part of America. They don't want you to have anything to do with America. They want to have a, a, a population that they believe they can control. And what they didn't realize is that Hispanic immigrants aren't little. Idiotic peons who are gonna do whatever they're told.

They are just like you and me, which is, well, I'm gonna do what's in their best interest.

And I think what a lot of people are seeing is that despite promises to the contrary, the Democratic party has not historically delivered on a lot of people's best interests.

Well, yeah, we've covered this. Even if you look at like black populations, if you, if you look at black populations in the United States when they live in cities that are more Democrat, historically there are gaps between them and the white populations. Now, generally, whether you live in a conservative or a Democrat region, if you are black in the United States, you're typically going to score lower on tests and you're gonna make less money.

But you will be dramatically closer to the white population if you're in a Republican controlled area than if you're in a Democrat controlled area.

Hmm. In

the big study that showed this, it was really fascinating. Now what did this organization that the Episcopal, because I I, I find it ironic just how many people who they said they cared about, they were willing to hurt just to spite 60 white people.

Just how, that's what really gets to

me is you let that go. But I think there's just, it's not just. Racism, Malcolm. I think it's also Trump Derangement syndrome. It's okay. Well, now that you've gotten involved in this, I have nothing to do with it. I'm dropping it.

There's this wrong, I think racism's a bigger part, but we'll talk about that in just a second.

Let's, let's talk about what the organization did. Episcopal Migration Ministries. The refugee resettlement arm of the Episcopal Church facilitated the research settlement of refugees in the United States for nearly 40 years. Their work included receiving refugees assigned by the government, providing initial support such as housing, food, and clothing, offering case management, job placement assistance, English language training, and cultural orientation.

That's awesome. I wonder what their cultural orientation looked like. I mean, you know,

it's, it's a church thing. This is how they get Oh no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. If these are organizations that are freaking out about this, I'm sure a bunch of of, you know, crazy trans whatever had gotten into these organizations and with brainwashing these people's kids you, we see this over and over again with the stuff that's coming out of you know, that that organization that they shut down whatever it was, American Aid.

Right. I, I would be very surprised whenever I hear, yeah.

This is the Episcopal Church. Their job is to get. And they,

yeah, that what I'm saying is this is the Episcopal church and they shut all of this down over just not helping 60 white people. They were clearly very, very far down this particular spiral.

Perhaps

you're right.

Operating through a network of 12 affiliates across the United States and Florida. Now I was trying to get how much money had the government given the church to do this. EEM received federal funding through the state Department's Bureau of Population Refugees and Migration.

While exact figures of 2025 funding, I. Are unclear. We know that the program allocated at approximately $1.2 billion for across nine resettlement agencies meaning that they guessed around $207 per refugee for the resettlement costs.

Now if you're like, okay, well there ist a genocide going on in South Africa, right? There have been over 4,000 white farmers killed since 1994. If you're like, yeah, but people get murdered in South Africa all the time. Well, the murder rate for a regular person in South Africa. So keep in mind this is gonna be high.

Yeah. Is 150 per a hundred thousand, I'm sorry, it's not hundred 50. It's, it's 45 per a hundred thousand. Okay.

150 is insane. Yeah. Okay. For, for, for the farmers

it's 150.

Oh, ah, okay. Yeah, there's

some, there's some disparity. So it's over three times higher than your average? Yeah, if I had to. Yeah.

Like if you had to choose to be in a group, which group would you be in?

Yeah, I would clearly not wanna be a farmer. And,

and, and this accounts to 300 to 400 farm murders annually. Which is you know, horrifying to me. And if you wanna get how normalized this is the head of the EFF Julius Malama led the song kill the Boars about the song. Yes. It was a song about killing divorce with a tune in white African, tune out.

It's a tune that it was put together during the apartheid period about how they wanted to eradicate the boars and mm-hmm. He thought that this would be normal. And he is, you know, still a politician. He still works with the ruling party in South Africa. This is, this is normalized. This is what they seeing at political rallies.

Let's kill like these, these farmers. Right. You know?

Okay.

So, yeah, if in the United States we had politicians singing songs like, let's. Hang the, some slur from Africans from the tree. Like, let's hang the African slur from the tree. Everybody, let's dance around the hanging tree. You'd be like, and, and, and an African from the United States said, Hey, I'd really like to leave.

Any country in Europe would consider them a refugee. Any country in Europe would consider them a refugee. Oh, if they,

right. Sorry. Yeah, if they, if,

if, if Donald Trump had done something like that before winning the election. Any country in Europe would consider them, ah you know, this is the, the fact that this is happening and that they have the statistics to prove it, and that the left is still like, no, this isn't happening.

I love that video of them bringing over and ambushing the South African president with videos arguing about his country's racism, and the left freaked out. They're like, he was ambushed. It's like, well, he should have been ambushed, like he is doing a genocide. Do you guys not care? It's like how the left completely doesn't care about the Uyghurs.

Even, even though it's a Muslim group that's being genocided, it's like, oh, but it's cute Little Asians doing it. We can't hate the Chinese. Trump doesn't like them.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. That is a, it is interesting how so much talk is out there about Palestine and yet there's not, I mean, I guess, you know, it's not like the US is actively supporting a ccp, which is in turn.

You know, genocide, uighurs. However, we do have the issue of

the, the left regularly attempts to support the ccp. Ideologically, they argue it's a great place to be. They argue that it's all over the top. It is not really bad. You see this? I mean, remember with the whole TikTok thing and everything like that, the left loves the ccp.

Oh,

oh. Whoops. Again, I guess. My God, I don't know what to say. I just wanna give everyone the, the benefit of the doubt. I, I, it's so hard for me, and I think a lot of this is subconscious. I don't think, you know, when we go back to the episode that we did on how I. On average. In general, progressives are more likely to prioritize a larger circle of identity, including animals and nature and to deprioritize their own internal circle.

Whereas conservatives are more likely to be like my family, my clan, my people, my culture, my country. Like all these things matter a lot more the things that are closer to them. And I think this is more an extension of that, that if there's hatred, it's hatred for your own group. And I wish I could find this.

I, I'm really struggling to find these stats, but there's, I came across information about different groups in the United States, like ethnic groups in the United States and how they felt about Outgroup people. Mm-hmm. And I like the only group that, that hated their own ingroup more than everyone else.

So everyone else is like really cool and chill with, with others, which was great. White people appeared to just hate their own. Like, that was where the bias was. So like in general, my, my takeaway from this research was a lot of different, like there isn't a lot of outgroup hatred with pretty much any ethnic group, but there is ingroup hatred with white people.

Yeah,

and, and like I was pointing out was the like polyamory thing and stuff like that. The other fun thing that we've noted about Mormons is that they do a lot of like swinging compared to other groups. And we have another episode where we talk about that in more detail. Most likely because you had this genetic selection effect was in that culture.

And when we talk about, you know, aggregate differences between cultural groups I. They are persistent. They do matter between white groups. There is not a white population.

I was just talking with Simone about this again yesterday and how sometimes it feels like when we are trying to relate to people from different white cultural groups, they feel almost like a different species. Like I cannot begin to imagine the way that they're perceiving the world or the things that are driving their actions because they seem so foreign to me.

Yeah. And, and well just like

there is not a black population. I mean, as you've pointed out, many, many times in the past, different groups in Africa have more genetic distance from each other than most.

non-African groups, right.

Specifically Europeans and Asians are closer together than most Africans are.

Yeah. So like for us to make this monolith of you are black, you are white, right? But especially you are black. I think

most people, most people who are educated are aware of that. I, dude, I

didn't know that, that blew my mind.

But a lot of

educated people are not aware of. Is how different white groups are, even American white groups. That's fair. And things that you know, you can see in trend data. You can see this in an alive race as we've shown. You can see this in murder rates as we've shown.

Like if you look at the greater Appalachian cultural region, for example, as well, really high murder rates if you can control for cities where cities also have high murder rates.

But if you, if you control for cities there you see like one, a really unusually high murder rates. And it's like, why would you have this predilection for like ultra violence within this cultural group a given their history? We should probably go over that a little bit. It was mostly because they were based in small clans that sort of survived in lawless environments.

Like they were the ones who set up like the regulators. They would either try to keep police out of their territory or set up local informal law. Courts and stuff like that,

right?

And you needed the types of communities when you have these, these very violent, clan based environments where if a neighbor, you know, tries to take a few acres of your land they don't do that because their family's gonna be butchered, right?

Like you, you need that sort of fear. And this is why if you look at maps. Of where different religious or cultural groups in the US spread and where they stopped. In a lot of regions you'll see a lot more mix of cultures and then it's like you hit the, the, like a wall of the greater Appalachian cultural group and, and, and waves just stop.

Often it's like, oh, we're gonna skip that and go immediately over here. Because it was an incredibly dangerous place to be. And this is why if Youer was in this culture and you were. Squeamish about this sort of stuff you would've survived at the same rate. Which is, is, is it means that you're going to see things differently.

And as I pointed out, Catholics and I see this, when I talk to Catholics, they so structurally see things differently. That sometimes I even struggle to have, like I. If then like, long conversations with them because I struggle to understand the way that they structure their arguments. Mm-hmm. And, and this is what I call high Catholics.

Now there's high Catholics and low Catholics. Low Catholics are people who are more like mainstream. High Catholics are the very intellectualized Catholics. Mm-hmm. Like the Irish Catholics and Italian Catholics. I think mostly the Irish Catholics is where you get high Catholics from. And they'll always like come down to like an analogies, to like a beauty and grandeur in the way they're describing something.

I'm like, yeah, but that's not like an argument for something that's, that's, that's like a, a perception. Well, I

think it comes down to. As we described in the Pragmatist Guide to Life Standards of Evidence. So in the Pragmatist Guide to Life, we, we basically say you need an objective function, something you think has intrinsic value that you wanna maximize, or a cluster of things.

Then you need basically an, an ideology, sort of like a hypothesis as to how you will maximize these things, which will be altered as you learn new information. But you also need to under, you have a, basically a, a very disciplined framework for what you believe to be true and what you believe to be.

Acceptable evidence like the, the Wikipedia equivalent of a trusted source. And the, I think the problem is your standard of evidence, you know, what you consider to be a source of truth is very different from some versions of, well, many other people's sources. The truth, especially Catholic, because there's a lot of.

Catholic stuff that really is based off of more aesthetics and feelings and general sentiments rather than here's the data, here's the consequentialist result, et cetera.

Well, and appeals to authority are, are really big, like appeals to this is how things were done in the past. I don't see any of this as like intrinsically negative.

I'm just pointing out that it is structurally different and it means that like when I am engaging with different, I think that there's , a huge. Problem when people try to create like a Pan-American white identity because there isn't a Pan-American white identity.

I remember I was talking with this person online and they said, oh, well there used to be like, if you go back to early America, and I was like, did you, like, were you like not educated about the way the colonies worked? Your average, , you know, Quaker Northerner was more different from your average southern slave owner during that period.

Culturally, speaking of like the Cavalier cultural group, then. I am from your average American Muslim, , in terms of what they ate, , what sort of , , entertainment they consumed as what they did in their free time. , , what type of work they did, how they got to work, what they believed about God.

I mean, yes, they may have been nominally Christians, but for example, the Quaker concept of God was very different than the cavalier concept of God. . Probably more different than your average,

mainstream evangelical American concept of God and your average conservative Muslims concept of God, , which I think would surprise a lot of people who hadn't explored, , the beliefs from that period of American history. If you want to dive deep on this, , check out the book, Albion Seed or American Nations.

there isn't a Pan-American white identity.

I have like culturally, I, for example, am closer to most Latin American immigrant groups than I am to high Catholic groups.

Yeah. I have an easier time talking to them. I have an easier time making arguments. I have more friends in those groups. Mm-hmm. And there's what, you know, we worked in, in, in Latin America, we have a lot of friends who are Latin American. And it's a cultural group that I just get along with really well.

And I think that, yeah, that's, that's really interesting. And I see this in our kids, you know, we had reporters here from Germany and they were just surprised by how much our kids fought that they had like sock bops and they were constantly fighting each other. And I was like, well, kids fight, right?

Like, I fought all the time as a kid. And they're like, yeah, but like the girls fighting, like, what are they doing? And I was like, ah, they're having fun. She always starts at too, which is so funny. And then, and then they like, like one of them would like punch the other and they'd fall over and like, and they'd be like, do you need help?

Little one. And I'd be like, do not cuddle him. If he cries, he's gonna get smacked. Get back up, buddy. You know, and it's, it's funny because I see that we actually had a problem with this on the cruise ship recently. Whereas the way that we raise our children is meant to be. Very rambunctious and aggressive ference tumble.

Cultivate in them. Like we actively work to make them as tough, as aggressive, as uninterested in like being hurt or anything like that as possible. And it's put us in a position where the other children are too fragile for us to leave our kids alone with other kids, especially when our kids are a group.

And it's not like. They're picking on other kids or anything like that. They're actually, I don't think I've ever seen our kids pick on another kid. It's, no, it's

just playing in a very. Rough and tumble way. Enthusiastic way.

Yeah. Well it's one playing in a rough and tumble way, and two, having a dangerous amount of confidence for a young kid.

Like, you know, going up to another kid and being like, Hey, give me your toy. I wanna play with it for a bit. And the other kid's like, they're like, come on sharing. Right? And then, and then the other two like, come up behind him and he is like, yeah, sure, you can play with it for a bit. And then he goes and like cries to his mom.

It's like, dude, if you didn't wanna give it up, then don't give it up. You know, push them away. That's what our kids would've done. But you know, they, so they don't like go up and snatch things from people or anything like that, but they definitely are. They know what they want. Right. Or they'll climb on top.

We kept getting in trouble in the cruise ship because they kept climbing on things or climbing under things. And of course, like we've built our house so that they climb on things. Right. Like that. I I wanted

that. Yeah. Unfor. Yeah. We've, we've fortunately or unfortunately trained our children. I. To climb on old things.

And if you look

at videos from when I was a kid, remember I told you of the stories of me climbing up the side of my house and always getting in trouble with the neighbors on the vines. And we found an old video she was watching because you're just watching videos of like my parents interviewing my granddad.

And then out of the blue you see me climbing up a second story window, like looking in and waving as a like a 5-year-old.

Rig was shut down. They needed some parts for it. Granddaddy, through customers, you're being paged to granddaddy

with their,

uh, the

Like, this is clearly not safe. And my parents. Do not look concerned. They are not like getting up to run out and get me off or like do anything. They're like, oh hey look. He wants to wave at the camera and then they go back to what they're doing.

Classic, classic. Yeah. This is back when kids could be kids. You know, but I remember this from my own childhood. Remember I told you that in Italy? 'cause I lived in Italy for a while. My brother and I were always getting in trouble. And it was always bambino, you know, the yelling at us because, you know, we'd climb over a fence or climb up the side of an old building 'cause there's so much fun stuff.

It is like Assassin's Creed over there. There's so many easy holds. So, so in, in Italy, you're not supposed to let your five year olds climb up the ancient church side or something, you know, so they, so something just maybe whatever, always. I had this memory of always getting in trouble and now. It's clicked for me when I see my own kids always getting it.

I'm like, oh, it's the same thing. I wasn't being a bad kid. I was just raised in a culture where I was expected to be and, and trained to be significantly more rambunctious and confident and aggressive than other kids were. And when I was put in an environment with these Meer children they sort of like panicked.

Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. Or their parents did not wanna go out anymore. 'cause they're so fine at home, it doesn't cause any trouble. They're happy. They're, they're not being bad in public either. Well,

they're, I know they're going out and doing their own thing. Like when I get in trouble, they're like, well, one of your kids left the park and is playing in the field.

And I'm like, why is it wrong that he's playing in the field? Why do I have to force all the kids to play on the part? And they're like, I, I'm like, he's not gonna die. Like, let him do what he wants,

huh? Yeah. So what is, you know, we've got Hillary Clinton, like what's what? What are we taking away from all this?

My

thesis here is that I think that I. There, there I, I won't say that great. Replacement theory is real. So if anybody takes this video and says Malcolm is arguing for great replacement theory, I am not, because I don't think that that was the intention. I think that there was an intention to allow demographics to shift.

I think as Hillary said that the left saw immigrants and a believed higher birth rate within immigrants as a pathway towards, fixing demographic collapse. They knew that falling fertility rates were an economic issue and they thought that they could fix it with, with immigrants. And if you look at other things they said, they also saw that the immigrants would vote for them.

And so they saw this as useful from both perspectives, fixing an economic problem and also fixing sort of an existential demographic problem.

Mm-hmm.

It was, well, I mean, I, I would, I could argue that there was a great replacement conspiracy and that we wanted to replace problematic and troublesome conservative Americans with receptive and grateful immigrants. 'cause that would make sense. I mean, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me. If I wanted to get votes and make sure I got elected, I would probably wanna do that too.

So, yeah. You know, just seems reasonable to me, but yeah, it's, it's odd. It is odd.

All right. I love you to ask Simone.

I love you too. Gorgeous.

All right, Simone, after three days of reporters raiding our house German news team for, what was it? Korea, Japanese, and then German. Before that we did a bunch of screeds about how we're happy the Germans are going extinct, and Muslims don't ban IVF like they do. So, you know, we gotta see if we can, we can get, get a something viral outta this.

With the Japanese, we went full ota. We're like, oh, we're OTAs for having kids. 'cause it's like subversive to have kids these days. And that only in Otaku, somebody who's our taco for children, you know, like a weirdo, obsessive, but four children would be able to replace themselves in this country as it is today.

What's

wildest, just how much our kids have normalized film crews. Like to them it's not weird. It would be weirder for them to see. An electrician in the house fixing something than it would be for them to see a full out film crew with all the lighting, all the suitcases, all the, it's so funny. Don't get it.

Oh my gosh. It's wild. Yeah. They, they, they, they just have like a giant film camera in their face where they're like eating and they're not paying attention at all.

Yeah. They just like,

whatever. Oh, this is normal.

Obviously I'm famous. Obviously the news is here to interview me.

Why the film crews come, he says, because he's very fancy.

Yes, it's the fanciness. It is specifically because our son, Octavian is fancy. But he is, he is not wrong. He is very fancy.

Alright. Okay.

You bopped him with? A soccer B Dusty. You gotta get him back. I stronger. Oh yeah. Oh, Josie, you gotta power up. Power up. You gotta boost your power. Bam, bam, bam.

Join Malcolm and Simone in an exploratory episode as they delve into the life experiences of Anna Valence, a trans woman navigating through various social and sexual landscapes in New York City. This discussion is prompted by Valence's own candid writings on her blog, covering her struggles with self-validation, dating challenges, and the harsh realities of transitioning. Amidst addressing broader themes like societal expectations and the pitfalls of certain lifestyles, the episode also touches on controversial topics such as trans misogyny and the generational differences in accepting trans identities.

Hello Simone. I am excited to be here with you today, and this is an episode I have been dying to do literally

every day.

You're like, I wish we could record this now. This is, yeah. But

we've had a reporter at our house every day for the past three days at two German groups. One a Japanese team. Yeah. And then we also had the Steve Truly Show it's got like, you know, million subscribers. So I had to do that and, and then before that it was the cruise.

So it's been so long, but it's given me so much time to research this topic because of this. Yes. So we are going to diving in to the daily life of. Valence.

you were an interesting study. Must, greed, deception, fertile ground, but rather mundane.

This is the individual who attempted to cancel the YouTuber Kirsha.

Ah, yes. Who

is a a v YouTuber. We have another episode on that if you wanna see that.

That is not what we are adjudicating here. That is not what we are talking about here. This isn't even really an episode designed to dunk on this reporter, Anna Valence. This is an episode that is designed to look at what happens and what the daily life of somebody who is bought in to all of the urban Monocultures, indulgences looks like when they hit their mid thirties.

Hmm.

What is the payout from all of this? You know, if you go with the lifestyle that we promote, you'd have a job that contributes to your community. You'd have a bunch of kids. You'd be, as we say, living the end of Gladiator.

And I think a lot of people when we say things like, look I don't think that we should go out there , and make trans people feel bad about the choices that they've made.

But I do think it's important to do things like bring up, well, what actually happens if you go all in with this lifestyle? Yeah. Where actually does that leave you? Because if you look at the celebrities who promote it, they're typically people who are beginning their journey within this lifestyle.

Mm-hmm. It's, it's the before and I just decided to do this. It's not the, I've been doing this for 20 years and here's what happened to me after that. Right.

Once upon a time, there was a fox and he was called Jerome One day, he found a copy of Cheekbone Magazine. And he read an article about London life.

three weeks later, he was off his tiny face in a gay club. But the party lifestyle took its toll. Eventually he ended up on the streets, begging for cheese and Alston.

And what's great about valence is you get that. Mm-hmm. And valence falls into the, and this is where I'd say we are not against, you know, your average trans person.

Right. Do what you want. Right. We do strongly recommend against the Cine Byte lifestyle. And I'll explain. You need to

break it down because I've, this was never heard of it before.

Yeah,

Doors to the pleasures of heaven nor hell. I didn't care, which I thought I'd gone to the limits I hadn't. The center bytes gave me an experience beyond the limits pain and pleasure.

Indivisible.

so there was a famous horror franchise in the 1980s called Hell Raiser. It's where the character Pinhead is from.

Explorers in the further regions of experience, demons to some angels, to others. We came now you must come with us. Taste our pleasures please. Girl. Go away live. Oh, no tears, please. A waste of good suffering.

This is the guy, if you have seen him, the horror guy with a bunch of pins all in his head. I, this was a world where if you had looked at other eighties horror franchises at the time the killers were often stereotypes of, you know, hillbillies or they were stupid or they were just crazy, right?

Mm-hmm. Whereas they wanted to make a cunning and meticulous. Horror villain but who is still totally horrifying, right? And so the Cina bytes were people who went to another dimension, a hell dimension where they lived lives dedicated to exploring the furthest reaches of pleasure and experience and pain.

And as they just kept indulging in pleasure, and pleasure and pleasure, they begin to desensitize to it. And so they begin to look for new ways to feel pleasure or anything at that point. You can think of them if you're more familiar with the Warhammer 40 K. These are Chy cultus. They begin, you know, ripping off their skin.

They begin putting hooks in themselves. They begin putting nails in their heads and. It's not, you know, when you're warning somebody against the villains in this franchise, right? You will have an individual with like a, the puzzle box that summons them and they're like, I want a pleasure. This, they say they'll give me pleasure.

You know, and, and people are like, well, yeah. I mean, they're not lying about that in the short term. But there is the long term to think about because eventually you become a cina byte. If you become the Cina bytes victim. They, they abduct people and bring them back to their realm when these people call them.

And in many ways, people can be like, why are you so worried about things like these book readings that are happening at schools?

And then the little fox went to the woods.

Why are you so worried about? It almost to me feels like, why are you so worried about like these centa bytes who are hanging around the school and occasionally abduct children and make them cena bytes?

And then the bear went over the mountains to see what he could see.

Like I worry about it because of the mental health effects. Okay.

Hmm.

And we've talked about those a hundred other times, but I wanna talk about the daily life. So let's talk about the daily life of Anna Valence from their own substack. All right.

And I'll be reading from this.

Okay.

A few months before the pandemic began, I went to a queer sex party with a fair mix of cis and trans women.

Normally, I find T four T is one of the most seamless sexual experiences I've ever had. That's when you hook up with another trans person as a trans person.

Sure.

The anxious dancing around the topic is gone. The uncertainty and fear of being too much isn't present. Trans fms tend to hook up with each other at lightning speeds, but something was a little different at this party.

The more I tried flirting with other trans girls, the more I picked up the vibe that a lot of the other dolls came to hook up with cis girls. This party served as an intersection where cis trans lesbians could meet, . And so hooking up with another trans girl was sort of missing the point.

The role expectations were changed due to the studying and the circumstances. So what the,

hold on. Cis trans lesbian. So it's a man who's into women and is trans.

Yeah. Right. It's, it's a, somebody who was born, A guy Yes. Who was into women, but is dressing up as a woman and wants lesbians to have sex with him.

Okay. Okay. Gotcha.

Gotcha. Thanks. Okay. A lot of people, like, they don't pressure themselves on lesbians. I mean, this is them saying this but, okay. But the change also called into question the very concept of T for T for me. Is TF four TF always T for T or is it sometimes T for T until I get my hands on some of that cis girl.

P this doesn't sound, sexual organs.

Okay.

And the, the, I I try to not use any curse words in this at all anymore. Or swear words. You could use the word vain. Vain, okay. I'll say that T for T until I get my hands on some of that cis girl vain. No, I mean this is this, this is them saying this.

They're saying trans women prefer universally in their experience, cis women to trans women as partners if they prefer female partners, which is saying. That from the perspective of a trans woman. Other trans women are less women or, or less, at least what they're interested in than cis women. Which then brings the question of why then do they have a problem when some cis lesbians say, I don't wanna date trans women.

Right. When even the trans women have a preference for cis lesbians.

Yeah. This, this is always something I wondered about. You know, how well-founded are all these lesbian complaints about trans women? That is NA men saying they're women entering their spaces. But this implies from the perspective of someone who is a needle man.

Who now identifies as a woman mm-hmm. Saying that so that this is, this is useful new information for me.

Yeah. And the ramifications of that answer have a terrible effect on both of you as well as the other trans fims you're hooking up with. Sexual roles and expectations tend to have a contagious effect.

And then dot dot, the first crack in the veneer for me, the thing that began the slow and gradual exposure of my real self was learning. I was ineffable. Aw. So what this story is going to focus on is this individual beginning to realize that the only people who willingly sleep with trans women are trans women.

And that they didn't want trans women as partners. And that they realized that. Nobody really wanted them except for the other people who no one else wanted to touch. That's lonely. It is lonely and sad. But it's important to highlight this from the perspective of somebody who is a, you know, a vice journalist and who ran another thing Like this is a fairly successful trans woman living in New York, right?

Like, this is supposedly what you want from life, right? Like, if, if you're taking this path, you have achieved everything. You've achieved the status, you would've achieved the nice city. And yet they still have nothing, nothing even from their own value perspective, even from their own community perspective.

And that's why Well, and

I appreciate this too. 'cause as you said earlier, most of us when exposed to transition stories are seeing the excitement, the hope, the finally I found in my community and not the Okay did, did happily ever after take place. And I think that this is, well, yeah, it's adding nuance to the equation.

Right when I was about to move, I started going to parties in Brooklyn Wee be parties where we could get all sloshed and high and dance to two thousands anime music and go home cross faded. It was casual and chill. Classic New York Millennial House party vibes. Fun, fun, fun. I was one of the only trans femmes at these parties, one of the two or three, but everyone treated me fine.

No one acted weird towards me, especially not the feminine, non-binary hang.

Everyone seemed happy to see me, enjoyed my presence. A floater who got to vibe and chill and joke and have fun. I felt like I fit right in. I finally found my people. And it sounds like a fun group right, as well. Yeah. Like, I'm just like, oh, it's like a Weeb anime group where they watch anime music and you know, et cetera.

Yeah. And, and of course they tolerate a trans person. Right. You know, then something changed. When I started introducing my cis girlfriends into the friend group. My friends got attention. I mean, I did too. But in the way you do when people like your jokes, these women, they got attraction attention. People came up to them to talk to them, to chat with them, seemed to spend a lot of time around them wanting something from them.

Oh, I soon realize they're trying to f them. Huh? That happens here. Whoa. That's never happened to me.

So what's happening is she found a community shot that she thought she liked and that she thought accepted her, but then realized that they did not want to have sex with her.

It's all performative.

Yeah. They, they accept her of her lifestyle, but they don't actually see her as a woman.

Well, and I, I think that's quite universal that there are, there are a lot of progressive people who will absolutely accept people's life choices, but that doesn't mean they're going to like, voluntarily have sex with those people.

You can't change your arousal patterns based on your politics.

Yeah. Which is, is sad. It's sad because these people, they wouldn't know this if they're just interacting with these communities. Mm-hmm. If they just go to one of these communities and they're like, okay, what do, like, are you guys cool with trans people?

They're like, yeah, if I'm a trans person, am I ever gonna be made fun of or made to feel bad about my choices? No. And so then they're like, ah, so. The lesbians are gonna date me in this community. And the answer is no. Yeah. That

promise was never made,

and that's an issue. No, we just said we wouldn't, but they misinterpreted that because they saw valid.

Yeah.

There's a assumption that they would also have relationships and fulfilling sex lives, right?

Yes. They saw this as they validation. And I should point out that while I don't think this individual totally passes, they, they, they sometimes pass, sometimes don't, they think they pass. So let's say this individual thinks they pass.

Right. The point I would make about this individual

mm-hmm.

Is one, this is an individual who didn't have bottom surgery. So, so keep that in mind that they're trying to get lesbians to sleep with somebody who has girl dick, girl Dick, as they would call it. Which to me is assault, but Okay. You know, they, they especially if you don't warn them first, but they you know This is them telling what it's like to be this type of individual. This isn't like some weird deformed person. This is , a normal looking trans individual. If any of saying somebody who, if they had stayed a man would be a fairly I'd, I'd say probably attractive man. Right? Like normal., I can't judge male attractiveness well, but I don't think that they would be like actively monstrous looking or anything like that.

They'd be able to find and secure a partner. And they gave that up in their quest for self validation. And I don't think what we're seeing here that they didn't realize that they were giving this up. This was not advertised to them on the, on the lid when they did this.

But I wanna, I wanna be clear that this is not.

A, a universally trans problem that like an area of the internet where I see this taking place way more than I see it taking place with trans individuals is with women who are taxi dering themselves with plastic surgery. Oh yeah. They're given the impression and the promise that if they get these procedures or use these skincare products, that they will be seen as desirable and often women who are no longer in their twenties are trying to look like they're 21 and it doesn't work.

Just like I think a lot of trans people. Are under the impression that they're going to look like women and people will be attracted to them. Like women, just like these older women are given this, this tale of, oh, you will look like a 21-year-old. You'll be attractive to people like a 21-year-old, and they simply aren't.

So this is a great,

that's a great analogy. I, I think is, is if you are somebody who is thinking about this mm-hmm. And you are having trouble modeling the way that other people will think of you internally. Mm-hmm. They will see you the way that you, maybe when you were in your twenties, would've saw a 40-year-old woman who had gotten a ton of, you know, I keep wanting to a lot of work, done me, done a lot of work done, and was trying to hit on 20-year-old guys, and is like, why don't you see me as a 20-year-old woman?

No, you can't pull this

off. It's, it, you just shouldn't try you. You're never going to be a 20 something girl anymore. And if you're a natal male, unless you a little, but hold on.

But they're, they're here saying. And this is what makes the analogy so perfect. They're like, but I see myself as a 20-year-old girl.

I, I see myself as young at heart. Yeah. And just

like these women do. Yeah. These women are like, well, I see myself as a desirable young woman. Yeah. I paid for

the procedure. I look approximately like one. Why can't you see me that way Uhhuh when I see myself this way? And it's like, well, other people don't work that way.

Hmm.

Alright. Then they go on to say this is one of their friends trying to explain this. I think it's because you're a lesbian. One of my cis girlfriends said, the guys there don't approach you because they know you're gay. Maybe I thought, but I didn't buy it. The guys at these parties, wait, so

she's mad.

Anna Valence is mad that guys aren't hitting on her, but she's, I. A lesbian trans woman?

Yes. She wants the validation. Alright, maybe I thought, but I didn't buy it. The guys at these parties weren't super woke. Just the regular kind, like, you know, faux woke pronouns and bio, but two white claws and they started acting strange.

They liked that. Having

pronouns in your bio doesn't make you woke enough. Okay?

If you liked what they saw, they would've made it a little more obvious. I kept hanging out, kept going to the party. But now I was curious. I paid a little closer attention, started listening a little more intensely to people's personal histories.

Keeping track of who dated whom and how it went down. A pattern emerged a pattern that I shall now call the weave a party rule. It pertains to guys dating girls and girls, dating guys and girls, dating girls, and all sorts of other things. The order of the rules formation, the weed party rule. First women mostly dated men.

Two second. If I brought a woman with me, they , were guaranteed to get attention from somebody there, usually men. So what they're saying here is as far as women, mostly dated men, and if a woman came who was new to the scene, people would hit on her. And that's true of any scene. If you bring a new woman, men are gonna hit on them.

Okay? Yeah. But what's interesting is if it was a trans woman, they wouldn't hit on them. Third queer women were likely to check out other women and gossip about being attracted to them. Ditto towards non-binary people. Fourth, the aforementioned rules only pertain to cis women in afab, non-binary Partygoers Fi.

Trans fms were welcome to engage in socializing, but dating was off limits.

These rules are complicated.

Basically what she's saying is what everybody knows about women at parties. If you are a, a, a cis woman and you go to a party, men are gonna hit on you. But if you are a trans woman and you go to a party, men are not going to hit on you.

And this to her was shocking. She didn't, she couldn't get it. That, that, even,

even if you show up female presenting, or at least attempting to be female, presenting at a party, by default, you are just gonna be. You know, like, like lost claim and lesbians

are gonna be in the same dating market that you're in, that if you hit on lesbians, they're gonna be into you.

Or that they're gonna be into other, but they weren't. And this was really to the fact that they were shocked by this shows that when they were given this product of transition, do this and these problems get fixed. It was not said. And no one will ever wanna date you again, who's not trans. But that was the, that was the 10, that was what they were getting.

Mm-hmm.

Like your market value will be significant. You might be able to get somebody to date you who's not trans, but they're gonna be significantly less attractive than who you would've gotten previously. And that was clearly something that came as a shock to them. And this is why it's important to go into this so we can better understand why we warn against this and where a lot of these self validation spirals can land a person even when they are relatively successful by this community's own standards.

Mm-hmm. The weeb party pieces started coming together. Cis women at these parties were mostly interested in cis men. Their queer desires were mostly reserved for cis women and non-binary people that they thought were a fb. So what they're saying here is cis women who were bisexual, were interested in women, people who were born, women who may present as a little like gender, whatever.

And cis women, but they were not at all interested in trans women. Even if they were also interested in men.

Yeah. Yeah. So

basically

the rules I into not trans people.

Yeah. And I can see why that would be shocking to somebody who thought, who doesn't understand how, yeah.

If you kind of look at it from a, a weird perspective, it seems unfair.

So you're into like, both, both, but you're not into, you're into men,

you're into women, but you're not into trans women and, and what I'm pointing out here recently. Yeah, yeah.

That you're, you're into each, but not both. What's up with that?

Well, because from the perspective of a normal person, you're just.

A, a mutilated person like this is not you, this is what I mean. You're like somebody with too much plastic surgery. Like that's the way that they see you. Even if they totally accept you is like that. You are not like somebody who's just choosing to present differently.

Mm-hmm.

And if you wanna say, well, this is a result of their transphobia. Well, it's obviously not, because if you remember the very first part of this article, she was talking about how she herself prefers cis women. And at parties where there are both cis and trans women, almost all of the trans women preferred cis women.

So this is not a phenomenon of individuals with transphobia. This is a universal phenomenon.

know for, because I, you know, went to Silicon Valley parties and stuff like that and saw who got dates, the guys who don't take hormones, but sometimes dressed in skirts and other like, gender non-conforming things.

They actually got dates. Okay. The trans women did not. And this is what she's also talking about with the gender queer women who they saw as afab. If you are a woman who just dresses Manish or like a man but otherwise isn't going on hormones, you will be highly desirable to this type of person.

Right.

Well I think because one shows the former where a guy just sometimes wears skirts, whatever, maybe a little bit ambiguous, that shows immense confidence. When you choose to undergo hormone therapy or start identifying with different pronouns, you are using appeals to authority and exogenous interventions.

That's what really good point, which that, that actually communicates a huge lack of confidence. And what is the sexiest thing in the world? Confidence.

Mm-hmm. No, you're right. We're, the trans identity as represented by chemical transition represents that I'm going to use our cultural norms to force you to see me in a certain way.

Yeah. That

I, I can't do this by myself. That I, I can't just dress like a woman. When I wanna dress like a woman or be ambiguous, I'm going to use, I, I'm not strong enough to do it by myself, so I'm gonna use societal norms to enforce this, and I'm going, oh, and or I'm going to use surgery and or chemicals to enforce this.

Yeah. I don't have it on my own.

This in chemicals communities where people are putting like na pronouns in their bias. This is not a hostile community. Right. Yeah, sure. That's interesting. Meanwhile, men did not approach trans women for sex or dating, but men did approach cis women and non-binary afab people for sure.

And while cis women tended to ale other cis women, and by extension force afab, non-binary individuals into the cis women box, they didn't seem to have much interest with trans femmes. Now this, this is, what this does say to me is if like one of our kids was like, desperately like, I want to be trans, I'd be like, genuinely it seems buy the data.

If you just decide to be a cross dresser, you'll have a better life. Like that's sort of what this is, is suggesting here which is something that I had seen, but it didn't click for me. Before. It was like all the cis men and women were interested in all other cis women and cis men and anyone they perceived.

To be cis unconsciously. Oh, no. I thought to myself, I don't think I fit in. I don't think I fit in at all. And there's a, a picture of her where she's like, we party era. Anna was all about trying to look attractive, but dykey, it was nice, but not fully. Me either.

When

I first,

I feel really bad for her, right?

Like she's going through this. No, when I was reading this stuff, I was like, this, these awkward phases. She just wants to be loved. She just wants to be accepted. She was promised that Bill wants,

that's not exactly the same thing. Okay.

I still feel bad. I, I want people to get what they think they're getting.

And I do think she was sold a bill of false goods. I think that she was lied to by society about what was gonna happen when she pursued this course of action.

Oh no, I completely agree. I mean, this is what you see with all of her anger about her lewd tubing career, not taking off with the agencies. If you watch her other video on it, this whole thing that she started was at least in part over the fact that a lewd tubing agency didn't wanna hire trans lude tubers because they said that nobody wants to watch them, basically.

Which I I guess just when you read this now, it adds this whole other layer that this is this huge thorn in her side, this huge sore point of like, oh, great. Once again, because I'm a trans woman, no one wants me. So I could see her just snapping and then coming at,

well, and because what you'll see at the conclusion of this article is she says basically, well, I was wrong to try to, to get cis women to like me in this environment.

But now as a lewd YouTuber, I have all of these cis women fans and I have finally found a community that accepts me. And what she realized is this being turned down by this community and this community rejecting her, I think was really horrifying to her because it, it it reflected to her that, no, this new community, and as I said, reading her blog is really sad 'cause there's a bunch of, now I found a place where I fit in then three posts later, I hate this group.

Now here are the new community I just found I fit in. And, and what she realize is that, you know, this is one of the things I often see with Detransition because I, I, I meet a lot of them at like, heritage Foundation events and stuff like that is one of the things that they're most surprised about.

And we have some like detransition in our, in our fan community as well and stuff like that. And they, they even like list this in our bio is it's, they think that the community's gonna like jump on them or, or have some hostility to them if they're in like a conservative community. At, at least within in our type like new right tech, right?

Conservative. And I think, you know, when I talk to 'em when they, they're like, I am surprised by how nice everyone here always is.

You

know, there, there is not. And I think that that's what they're realizing. It's, they came from a community where they were constantly searching for self validation only to realize that the, the only community that's really going to you know, validate you for who you are is going to be the tech, right?

Mm-hmm.

Unless you're like a very specific thing. And, and, and unfortunately the, the trans woman is not something that's gonna get you the validation that you want. So when I first moved to, and this is the other thing I note about like Heritage Foundation events. There are trans people there who like just started det transitioning.

Like they look like trans people. It is not that they are being treated nicely because they don't look like trans people. Mm-hmm. They look like trans people. But like if I'm at a Heritage Foundation event and I see somebody who looks trans I immediately am like, okay, but like this took a lot of bravery to come here and everyone there is going to know that.

Except for, you know, at the needle color, there was like one homophobic guy, which really annoyed me. That treated like some of the gay people poorly, but, but whatever. Like, you can't, you can't police everything. But I think that, well, you

can't control. I mean, since it was a more open event, you can't control some,

no jerk

comes to your

thing.

When I first moved to NYC 2016 to 2020, I was in a Brooklyn Trans girl community made up of writers and musicians and other creators. A twinky thin Irish blonde girl with curves in all the right places. Yeah, my first four years in Brooklyn were busy. A revolving door of sexual partners, one after another threesomes, couple swaps, sex parties, tea girls f-ing me to compare notes with other tea girls the first time.

This sounds

awful. God.

Right. This was good. And this is, these are the

happy times for her. These are

the happy times. Okay. She, she moved to New York 2016 to 2020, and she was passed around because she had just become a woman and she now was sexually promiscuous. But it was mostly tea girls. But also you're getting this understanding of when she was younger and trans, her youth allowed her to get through some of this Interesting.

And created the illusion for her that she would still get Oh, no. So she's

not only, she's not only a trans woman. She's a trans woman who has hit the wall. This is horrible.

She's a post 30 trans woman.

Oh, no. Okay. That's really rough. Yes. Dedicated. I didn't, I didn't think that. I mean, like, and I think men really don't think about the wall.

Well, so like, here's this whole thing that they were never prepared for. They, they haven't been trained for this.

Yeah, no. They, they haven't been trained for this. A lot of women have like some understanding

that

it's coming from,

they, they grew up with, you know, at least the, you know, old maid and, you know.

Yeah. I think a

lot of trans women, and That's a great point. Don't have an understanding that this well, 'cause men

grew up with the understanding. Understanding that their value is only going to appreciate as they get older. And I think that's very deep in people. Yeah. As you grow up, you're just like, okay, by default I'm, it's okay.

It's only gonna get better. Whereas women are like, well, by default people are gonna start seeing me as a cat lady or old mate or whatever. And like, I think that, you know, there's just so much stuff going on when you transition that you're not gonna remember that like, oh, by the way, I also have to deal with this different framework.

I'm gonna hit the wall. People

don't like become women until they're like 23. Yeah. So they get more like seven years of being attractive or less. That's transition. That's

Oh, then, yeah. No, no one wants you if you're a trans woman or a cis woman.

Yeah. They, it's, that is like the worst time to translate because you get like a few years of being and, and you can see that this is what she defined as a good life.

This is why I am talking about being, when I say a Cena byte. This is an individual who had another blog post talked about how she learned how to deal with pain because she was with a partner who really liked hitting her in the face. And that was like her thing. Her dom really? And she hit her so hard.

She taught her new ways to deal with pain. So like actually a soundbyte like this is, you know, yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. So, she then goes on to say also, I guess she

didn't get work done. I, I feel like most trans women that I follow, I think she just did

hormones to do the top to focus. Okay.

Because like, if you got work done, man, like no one's hitting like, you know, don't come for my weave. Don't touch my like nose job like she did.

Well, and I think that this is, it's like what type of lesbian, cis lesbian is she able to get to date her? The type who just wants to punch her in the face. Ah. This is so rough. This is so rough. No, it is, it is sad and it is rough. And that is why I am reading it because I think that people need know.

If, if, look, if, if you start with, I've just moved to Brooklyn and I'll read this again. 'cause I think this lifestyle is what she thought would be forever. Not for four years. A Twinky, Finnish blonde girl was curved in all the right places. Yeah. My first four years in New York we're busy. A revolving door of sexual partners, one after another threesomes, couple swaps, sex parties, tea girls effing me to compare notes with other tea girls for the first time.

Also, I don't want someone to like,

have sex with me to compare their experience having sex with me with other people. I can't, I can't even, I can't even think about like, you comparing sex with me with other people, like makes me so like, oh, like, right. Like how could, like why does she want this? Why does she want this?

For the first time in my life I felt hot, attractive, sexual, and not just sexually appealing, but sexually appealing to other women. So what she's saying here, why does she want it? Because she wanted the affirmation.

Yeah, I guess. 'cause she assumed people would compare her favorably.

Yeah. She wanted affirmation.

She was doing all of this for affirmation. It's very clear. And she thought that this affirmation wasn't a spigot with a very small IV bag attached to it. Yes, other trans women more specifically, but I assumed there wasn't much of a difference between cis women and trans women when it came to openly expressing clear queer attacks.

So the point she's making here is, at first when she was doing the sleeping all around, the only people who were sleeping was her, were trans women. And she just assumed that that was just coincidence. She'd eventually find the cis women who liked her. The fun had to end eventually 2020 loomed and being ogled by other trans girls had worn out.

Its welcome. I was type casted as the hot journalist tea girl, and I felt trapped in a setting where sexual availability was expected for me. Confused, oddly unsatisfied, was most of the sex I was having. So again, the sex wasn't even good, right? She was just doing it and she got validation from it. And eventually she reflected, wait, this isn't good sex.

Why am I doing this right? And I think that the truth of this, and we've talked about this before, is sex isn't actually that good. It is something that's mythologized by our society, especially the far left. But I think the healthiest way to view sex is it's just, you know, something you do to make kids.

And it's fun. Especially when you're young, you'll feel a lot of compulsion to do it. But it's never more than a compulsion, you know? I didn't, so, so then she goes I didn't know what to do. Was I ace Increasingly, I was questioning whether I was ace. And I think this is why a lot of trans girls, and I see this repeatedly end up identifying as Ace later.

It's not because they're actually ace, it's just because they tried the debauchery, they tried the Cina byte lifestyle, and then the only. Way to reclaim normality after they had done that to themselves was to adopt an ace identity. So then they say it was clear I needed to take a sexual break.

When I made the switch to we a party friends, I took it on spec that they were far less sexual, the opposite of a t for T space. A space where I was integrating was more cisgender people on purpose to become familiar with life outside of the community. The, the trans community socially mature, a curated friend circle of working professionals where everyone kept it in their pants.

We were all either in our thirties or hitting our thirties. It felt like a great landing spot for my slutty twenties. I mean, I wanted to take a break from sucking and effing, so I chose a place that seemed relatively tame, but I think I drew on an assumption based on sing and effing sucking and effing available to me at the time.

I paid closer attention. I realized I was having an asexual social experience, but others were not.

Oh no. So she thought she found her pure, her pure living, she thought. Yeah. And she got fomo left the

trans community where I was being passed around as new meat. And I thought, okay, well now I'll integrate with this community as a woman.

Oh, they don't actually see me as a woman even though they are far, far lefties.

Mm-hmm.

A not into tranny. She says, quote, I assume most trans women have read them's 2018 article on discrimination against transgender people in dating.

What I just can't get over is calling this preference discrimination, where she enters this article saying that both her and almost every other trans woman she knows prefers to date cis women to trans women.

According to the study, in the Journal of Social and Personal Relations, just a mere 12% of the 958 surveyed said they would be open to dating a transgender man or a transgender woman.

Nearly half of all queer and non-binary participants were exclusionary towards trans partners. As were 71% of lesbian women between trans men and trans women, the latter were more likely to face rejection from the dating pool. Now, basically, it's not as bad to be a trans man as it is to be a trans woman was in the dating pool and this graph that she shared, I hadn't seen it before.

It's really interesting actually. Mm-hmm. So, if you're a hetero man, you're looking at like. 2% of hetero men will consider dating a trans person. And the majority of those it's trans men, basically. They're like, yeah, I know they're saying they're a man. Wow. But I don't believe it. And then the minority is trans women.

Almost no hetero men are into trans men. Then if you look at hetero women, okay? Mm-hmm. Literally none are into trans women. You, you do not see apparently a single hetero woman in this this is somebody women. Oh. 'cause they're hetero women. But a few were into trans men, which is interesting. Wait, a few hetero women were into women who now identified as men, but more Oh, okay.

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

Okay. Gay men. Okay. Of a, a, like I'd say like 7% chunk of gay men are into trans men. None are into trans women. So they're men who know. But that's actually big. That's the Mr. Slave and Mr. Garrison dynamic where Mr. Garrison transitions and Mr. Slave is like, why, why would you do this to me?

I am a gay man. I am into men. Mm-hmm. And Mr. Garrison assumed when he transitioned that Mr. Slave would still be into him, but Mr. Slave was not still into him. Gay men of all groups, even more than hetero men, find trans women or men who identify as women. Gross. That really surprised me by this.

Yeah, that's, yeah.

I, I think it also, I guess, implies a heavier interest, not just in male primary sexual characteristics, but male secondary characteristics.

Yeah. And then with, with lesbian women, again, here you see the vast minority being into this. Mm-hmm. But again, you see more lesbian women being into women who believe they're men than being into men who believe they're women.

Sure, yeah. And I, I also think that like before it was super common just to be transsexual. It was fairly common just to be like a very butch woman. So this is, you know, it

makes sense. But the point I'm making here is even lesbians and gays do not by this data, at least biologically or by their arousal patterns, see trans women as women or trans.

Yeah. But it's, it's funny

that trans men like get a free pass in a bunch of scenarios. So

Yeah. Let's say we're, there were roughly 50 people at a weed party gathering from 2021 through 2024. Big. Geez. Yeah. That's a big party, right? Yeah. Very little change in the social climate was in the millennial friend group across those three years.

Hmm. Let's also estimate four party goers at all events where lesbians and five were queer based on the 2018 study while attending the We party, six people in total were open to dating a trans person. She's doing the math. Only two or three queer people were open to dating a trans person and only one or two lesbians were open to dating a trans person.

If one of those six opened to dating a trans person, one of those two to three queer people, or one of those one to two lesbians, no wonder why I was feeling left out. Look how small my dating pool was. Mm-hmm. Most of the lesbians were statistically unlikely to be interested in me. Mm-hmm. And a good chunk of queer folks would've passed on me as well.

Even if I was open to dating men, 44 people would've said no to being with a trans person. Statistically speaking, I was in a social climate where I was surrounded by cis people who looked me over and said, eh, not into tran. Mm-hmm. When faced with the real thing, they'd rather leave the dick girl fantasy to fui.

And here I point out, if you had read our Pragmatist Guide to Sexuality, we did a big study on people in futa. The reason why men are in De Futa is because, or some men are at least is these are men who want porn without any other men in it. Because historically speaking you know, a man who was okay was watching another man have sex, was a girl he was interested in, had fewer surviving offspring.

And so a lot of men prefer only female female porn, but then they still wanna see PIV sex. Mm-hmm. And that's what food of porn is. Mm-hmm. It is literally the antithesis of transport. Okay. Mm-hmm. We asked in our survey of the people who were interested in FU or porn, how many of them were interested in trans porn, and none of them were the highest correlation was trans porn was bestiality and monsters.

Which means that these are people who see they, whatever the part of their body that turns off stimuli, like, oh, I'm gonna get a distress reaction from something that's clearly non-human. This is a outputting an abnormal, it's sort

of like comfort with body modification or stuff that is unnatural.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think that they realize that this is the way they are being interpreted by people. Well, because I think also

they're being lied to just the way that, you know, women in their thirties and forties are being lied to about cosmetic procedures that allegedly make them young. That this, you know, this will make you look younger and this, you know, this will make you look like a woman.

And people don't realize that no, this, this makes you look like a cool, an approximation of. And a characteristic held by this audience. But it is, it is by no stretch of the imagination

making you that audience. And I think both with trans women and with the body modification crowd, a lot of them are misled about how much they're going to pass by the amount of filters that famous trans women use.

On the social media posts that they're consuming of these individuals. So these individuals, they're having, you know, post-transition euphoria, they're posting a bunch of, of modified pictures that make them look more like a woman than they would in person. A bunch of pictures. Well, with filters, that's

also so easy.

I mean, I can look more like a woman with filters, you

know, like, yeah,

they all look so

good, so good. But there is a tragedy on the other side of this, right? Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. You turn off the filter.

Co compare that. Well, no, because then they go into this and they're like, oh, Dylan Mulvaney, look, they passed.

It's like, no, Dylan Mulvaney doesn't pass. Like if you see Dylan Mulvaney in person, this is an individual, it doesn't even come close to passing. And this is like the very best of what you can hope for within the trans community.

It's, it's tough. It's very selective angles and all that. Yeah, good lighting.

Yeah.

And, and even if you do, you know, you might be able to hook up with a guy who's just interested in sleeping with someone for the night, but, well, and also like, I think,

yeah, the, the other problem though is that we, we've entered an age in which Margot Robbie is considered mid, like, it's also difficult even as a cis woman to be seen as attractive.

So like, how do you think that as, as someone with so many things running against you. One, she's over 32, she wasn't born a woman. You know, three. You know, even as a man, she's not Well,

and this is why I'm, I've, I've moved against the idea of trans maxing or transitioning if you're like an unattractive guy just to get some partners or to get some, oh, no.

Honestly, though, there are, there are some types of, of male presentation that just they can pull off women better than if you are

East Asian. If you are East Asian, none of this applies.

I, that's the problem. That's what's so screwed up, is that like there are 100% trans people out there and not just East Asian.

Like they're all also all colors of a whatever ethnic rainbow that look way better than the vast majority of women. Women, they're like sevens, eights, nines, and tens. So I, I have never

seen a white trans person fall into that category. Have you one think a black trans woman, have you ever seen a black trans woman who falls into that category?

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So, compare that to an out and proud ster, someone who is pretty upfront about her interest in BDSM and prefers open relationships for that reason. So, she wants a lesbian partner who is into BDSM and open to having an open relationship, a lesbian living, a rather alternative lifestyle, you know, being a sex working sex journalist.

So she's also a sex worker, someone who speaks her mind pretty openly, not a journalist

like, you know, if Anna Valen was super wealthy, again, this, none of this would be a problem.

Someone who probably didn't f was my personality or maybe I wasn't their type physically. And yes, for the record, I did know some people who thought I was attractive within that group too.

Oh, okay. It didn't necessarily mean No, they just said it to be nice. This is what she doesn't understand. It doesn't necessarily mean they would date. It just means I bumped into one of the other five people who would be con open to going out with a trans person. Hmm. That's the problem though. Six people being open to date.

A trans person does not mean five potential partners. Hmm. You may not be into those five people, or they might not have chemistry with you. But, or the circumstances may not be right. They might be partnered, they might be uninterested in sex or dating at that time, or your sexual orientation may be incompatible.

In other words, not all of my experiences at the We party can be framed through my gender identity, but when C het leaning. Dating patterns emerge and trans women seem to receive significantly less attention than their cisgendered equivalents or cisgendered men. Yeah, it's hard to believe that's a space where trans women are truly treated as equals.

This planted the seed in me that grew over the last year and a half. Finally, one day at Ruptured, I realized the weed party friend group had an undercurrent of trans misogyny, was in it that had gone unaddressed. Oh my God, this person is just like a bomb waiting to go off within your, this is my

first time hearing about trans misogyny.

Very interesting.

I looked for it and I found it. My experience with this dating pool, our lack thereof, is one reflection of that. So people weren't interested in you, therefore they're all evil. That's your takeaway from this. No self-reflection. No. Oh, they're not interested in the way you look, or, oh, this isn't something they're into keep me on.

You didn't even have bottom surgery and you're trying to get lesbians to sleep with you. You and, and now you are going for the classic. It's therefore suck my girl d and like it like this is why people have turned against. Yeah. This

is, this is why JK Rowling is fighting the fight.

Because when we first, and I first was very protran when I bought into this, I thought it was about you wanting to be accepted.

And this community accepted you? Yeah. Unc categorically

there, there's been no accusation made in any of this content that No, yeah. Of what she's

mad about is that she cannot force lesbians to sleep with her or force them to be attracted to her. No, no, no. It's,

it's not, it's not even, it's, she's not being coercive in any of this.

She's just insulted that none of them are coming up to her.

No. Hold on. Listen to this. Okay. Okay. One day it ruptured, I realized we party friend group had an undercurrent of treads, misogyny was in it that had gone unaddressed. Okay. What does it mean to address this? What it means to address this is that people date her who aren't dating her.

Now people have sex with her who aren't having, or not even date her 'cause she only does open relationships. Addressing the trans misogyny. She's talking about means people have sex with her who don't wanna have sex with her. That's what she's talking about. She might be using colorful language to hide that.

That's what she's talking about. But that is the only way I. Because it is not that she wants more acceptance from the group. She wants lesbians in this group to have sex with her because again, she has said multiple times that is the only people who she finds attractive. Yeah,

but I don't think she wants to coerce well, okay.

There's other things that she's written that implies that she really likes non-consent, but she doesn't write anywhere in here that she, she actually seems to want people to make the first move and approach her. Right. But

this is what you're missing, Simone.

Okay.

She went to the community voluntarily.

People in the community did not want to make the first move. Yeah. They didn't. Yes. 'cause this goes unaddressed. She means she wants to be able to force them to make the forced move. Whether that is using cultural pressure or whether that is, I mean, basically she's saying, I want to set up a cultural pressure apparatus where lesbians in this community will feel uncomfortable not hitting on me or not making a move for me.

Mm-hmm. That's what she wants to happen. And we see this in many trans spaces where when a lesbian says, I'm not interested in dating trans women, they are attacked. Hmm. This is a, a, a, a form of violence that has happened multiple times at gay bars and stuff like that. Like this is a real phenomenon. So it's not like I'm pulling this like, five degrees of freedom from this.

This is what she wants.

That's rough.

So what I like here is this whole thing makes me depressed to read. Then I get to that line and I'm like, oh, you are a vile person. Like that is, that is where I'm like, I, yeah, yeah. You are. You, you deserve everything. And I don't think you started deserving everything, but we choose who we are.

You know, we choose when we victimize other populations. We choose when we victimize other groups. And you chose to not be okay with being accepted. You wanted forced sex. Or, or sex that other people didn't want, you, wanted them to feel uncomfortable not wanting to have sex with you?

Hmm.

I felt disillusioned and alienated after this conclusion.

So I decided to take stock. I looked in the mirror and asked, well, what was I getting out of weed party, if not sex? So friendship, camaraderie, everything like that. That wasn't what she wanted. She was there for sex, is basically what it was. And that's. Really sad, you know, she then write something broke was in me.

What was the point of all this? What was I doing here? Why did I keep hanging out when I wasn't really wanted? The last party I went to, I wore a dress for the first time in a very long time. I traded in slacks and jeans for something pretty, something form fitted pretty feminine. No one noticed, no one complimented me.

And to think, just be you expect that they're gonna go out and compliment you, you expect that they're gonna notice you. Right?

It has literally been maybe a year, maybe more than a year, maybe half a decade since somebody as a man complimented the way that I dressed. Now, maybe this is a sign that I just dress terribly, but I just don't think that this is something that normal people expect. And I think that this shows the self-centeredness of this individual that they expect they wear something unique on one day, they're gonna get complimented at the very most.

This is something you might expect of a dedicated partner who pays attention to the way you dress every day, but that's something that your lifestyle precludes. Given that you only. Inter open relationships.

A damn broke was in me. I wasn't being respected. that's what was going on. And well, if the world wasn't gonna treat me with respect, I wouldn't treat it with respect either.

I began adopting what I like to call neat core hobbies, sweatpants, anime, t-shirts, whatever makes me feel comfy when I go out. An expression of anti. A fashion that isn't fashionable, A statement that I appear as myself and prioritize my comfort over the preferences of anyone else. I can dress nicely again when I want to dress nicely for me.

Right now, I want to dress like I can just get out of bed. That means anime tees, baggy sweatpants, and vans. It's funny, reinventing yourself is not very glamorous. The true me is a frumpy and acrophobic, she says, stays home and plays deadlock all day and pretends to be a giant anime girl over the internet.

She plays a giantess in her whatever videos. To my utter bewilderment, this is considered very attractive to a white assortment of people playing a Giants on the internet.

Cis women, trans women, non-binary people. I sometimes feel myself laying in bed all day, er ping with multiple play partners across 24 hours. It's like catching up with a long lost time at weed party. Quite literally. I've had more assist partners in the past three years than the four before that. But here's the problem.

Oh, so she,

she gave up and

now it's working for her? No, what she did is she gave up and now she does horny online content.

Okay.

And she says, oh, well, now that I'm doing like lead tubing content mm-hmm. I have found my community because all these cis women watch me. And I'm like, how are you verifying that these are cis women?

People on the internet lie. That's like the point of you're, you know, going to the internet to receive sexual gratification. That is one of the oldest, the oldest rule of the internet is there are no women on the internet. And by this, what they mean is there in, in the cd you know, sex pe parts of the internet.

The reason why you get so few women within those communities is not just because women are into those things less. Mm-hmm. But when a woman is, they often get such an arbitrage opportunity within real life partnerships. Mm-hmm. That they have no need to explore this online. What this person is clearly engaging with is men who are pretending to be women, and they are so desperate for affirmation that they are willing to believe that this is real.

And then here is where it begins to get really creepy. In other words, my experiences was being ignored and overlooked in the dating space, reflected negative experiences I had with CIS millennials who wanted to reject me from my gender identity, but couldn't a common Siemens 2010, something I experienced recently in 2020.

This led me to believe it may be a problem generationally, was how millennials, cis women perceive trans women. On average, gen Z has treated me better than millennials. I don't just mean that Gen Z adults are more open to sex with trans women than their millennial counterparts. I mean that Gen Z cis women treat me as if I am equal to them.

While millennials are more likely to treat me like a third sex woman. A massive amount of Gen Zers view trans women as women. They have accepted transness just as another aspect. A woman may have this results in not just a lot of positive experiences with Gen Z, queer women in my sexual and dating life, but affirming experiences even when conflict happens.

It never feels like my transness is at play when there's a fight. It just feels like we're two equals figuring things out.

I love how this person just sort of tells on themselves of how miserable it is to date them. , Talking about fights in relationships as if they're normal things. It is, like, for example, it's not just that Simone and I almost never have fights like maybe one every three years, but I would even say of my past relationships, I probably only got in a fight with a partner and one out of every.

Four or five people I dated. , Fights are not a normal part of a relationship.

And by fight here, I mean any sort of emotionally heated disagreement.

I'm curious if there's a huge gap between dating preferences for millennials and dating preferences for Gen Z. Moving from a T four T space to a C four C one was an immense form of psychological whiplash.

But moving from a weeb party collection of cis and trans friends to friends sexually interested in me, that gave me whiplash and it solidified my feeling that weed party vibe is not a right fit for me. So who are Gen Z? This is an individual who's in her mid thirties. They're people between 13 and 28.

This is somebody who has admitted to \ doing a lot of age play stuff. This is somebody who has admitted to having problems with desiring underage content in the past. And basically their big realization is, well, if I groom children, then it all works out for me in the end. And I think that that's horrifying into this particular tale.

Oh, no,

I mean the power dynamics at play here.

Okay. Wow. This got dark a

little bit. Yeah. This, this is really dark. This is really sad. And I think it's important to go into, because we only hear about the euphoria. We only hear about the beginning or we hear about the people detransition and how bad it got for them.

But if there's somebody who is presumably living the best life you can as a trans person. This is what it is. This is what that best life is. And it's a sad, sad world. It's a world where you descend into a komori where you attack random v tubers because you're mad that they're more famous than you.

Where , your only source of validation comes from men pretending to be women and, and young kids.

Yeah, that's, it's a rough, it's a rough experience. It's not a pathway we would recommend for our children.

Well, and this is, this is why I think, you know, you want to get kids out of this. This is what you need to show them.

Mm.

You don't show them. Oh, somebody freaking out. Oh, somebody who's being like, aggressively mean about all this.

It's like this, this, this is the end of the rainbow.

Yeah. You're, you're gonna hit the wall. You're not gonna get the validation you're hoping to get. You're being love bombed now and then everyone's gonna forget about you. Everyone's gonna be nice and be creeped out by you.

What's the other side of sucking it up?

What's the other side of sucking it up? Okay. You get a family, you get kids. You, you, you, you can create a job where you're contributing to the world rather than attacking random people online.

Jota, I'll leave the rest to you. Well, if anything happens. Do you want to try it? Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Grandma. Hm? It's a little springy. I'm not as good as my mother. I guess I'll take a break. It's a nice dark weather. As expected of my mother. She seems to be doing well.

That's the topic. Grandma? I'm leaving it at the entrance. I'm tired of waiting. I'll never know what tomorrow brings I'll leave it at the entrance. I'll leave it at the entrance. I've practiced a lot with the Tsumuske brothers. I'll leave it at the entrance. I'm sure it'll be different. They're coming, Akemi.

Grandma If only one wish could come true If it's a wish, it's already come true. Grandma, what are we going to do tomorrow?

Oh, if you sleep in a place like that, you'll catch a cold. Hey! Mother! What's wrong, old man? Is

Like the other side of this is so great. That's the thing. It's not like, oh, you suck it up for a few years and you get something that's kind of good or you get something that how the other side of this is amazing.

And, and we, we are fighting not against people like Anna Valence. We are fighting for people like Anna Valence before this ideology got its hooks and hurt.

you were an interesting study. Must, greed, deception, fertile ground, but rather mundane.

Hmm. Yeah. We want the person that became who valence is today to have experienced the alternate fun muscle life. So in,

you know, in, in, in, in 10 years, that person could be walking home to their home and wife and have, you know, 10 kids jump on them and, and three, or maybe they

don't want 10 kids, but like, I don't know.

I feel like if, if she wanted, you know, a single childless life that was just focused on having fun, that there were much better ways to do that. I think the problem though is if you're incredibly hungry for validation, this is an easy trap. But what do you do if, if what you really want is validation?

What is the the best path for a man, a natal male?

I, I, I from making

lots of money,

I think being hungry for validation is in itself a sin.

Mm. You know,

if, if you can build, what

if that's your objective function? What if that's No, no, no, no, no.

Build a better objective function. It's a bad objective function.

It it's an objective function. That's not different for negative utilitarianism or something like you. What you need to do is think through what really matters in life, because the amount that other people validate you is obviously not a thing of intrinsic value. So you're just gonna say, validate

is a false God, don't do it.

Yeah. If you live your entire life dedicated to that, you become a ena byte. That is what makes Centa bytes is living a life dedicated to self validation.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It could also be one of those Chinese finger trap things. You'll never get it when you're trying to get it. You'll get it if you do a great job at other things.

Yeah. And you, you can't, can't seek it out. If you're seeking it out, you're never gonna get it. So you might as well just not try. Yeah. And just do something else that's meaningful. But I, I appreciate the cautionary tale. This is an episode we can save for our kids just in case they're getting a little, a little curious.

'cause all, all the out outside French stuff is super fun. Drag shows are super fun. Like in general, like drag shows

are, again what I'm saying you should do if you have these desires. Do, do drag shows occasionally, right. You know, the, one of the points I'm making is, is, is drag ironically was not that emotionally unhealthy, you know?

Yeah, totally.

It's dress creative's. Very fun.

It's very talent driven.

And then have the family and, and, and focus on that, you know, as, as historically the vast majority of people who did drag were, were cis men,

yeah. Yeah.

Which is fine. Like, I don't, I don't care.

Well, and as we pointed out, was this individual, I mean, we know why this individual is trans because she writes about it all the time.

She has a feminization kink. She gets turned on by the idea of a man being turned into a woman. There were plenty of ways to engage with that without. Transitioning. And I think that that's the other sad thing as they've expanded the tent for what? Qualifies for transition. Yeah. They have begun offering transition as a solution to people who this is not gonna help if, if you're transitioning because of a sexual kink, that's, that's not gonna lead you to having a good life.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right. Love you. Did ES Simone. I've already ate a pretty big lunch, so I don't really mind. Whatever you wanna do for dinner for my dad.

Where did you get lunch? Would you go? We went to a new

restaurant, lock 20. It's the restaurant right before the bridge going into Phoenixville. Oh.

And it had, I thought it would have like a pretty, like the burger was good, but it was like way too expensive. I go to the water,

make burgers tonight. What should I do? Well, you can ask my dad what he wants. I know, but I, it's not like I just have a fully stocked pantry of any ingredient you can imagine.

Okay.

Let me word this differently. Mm-hmm. You can ask him, does he want a burger or pasta with pesto because you made some pesto sauce a while ago, and that's really easy to make.

Peso pesto. Yeah. Or more pasta with, with meat sauce or meatballs or, okay. I will ask him. We shall get answers. I love you very much.

I love you too very much. All right. Go down, get my dad. And thank you for doing this episode. Interesting episode. Right. I found this to be really fascinating.

No, this, this was good. I've never really done a deep dive on.

Such an unfiltered tale of the other side of transition. Mm-hmm. I mean, you see a lot of trans influencers showing the highlights, reels of their lives, and also presenting highly curated social commentary and they look fantastic and you're like, this is wow. Like they're thriving. And this is, I, I think, you know, to a fault, valence has been extremely open about everything she is thinking and doing, but it's been very helpful because you're seeing, again, the very unfiltered I.

Element of, yeah. And it's

also interesting to me because, you know, we're about the same age and everything like that. Like, we're not like that dissimilar in our starting point in valence in us. Right. You know? And that you know, we made different positions and I think it, nobody, I don't, I don't think any, even the, the biggest set of byte is gonna look at the differences between our two lives and say that her life is in any way desirable when contrasted with our life.

I, I don't care who you are, anyone's gonna be like, wow, Malcolm and Simone have a really good life. No. You know. No,

no, no, no. I know from the hate comments that we get, that I read that people think we live very miserable lives and that we are in a loveless marriage and all these things. No hate

hope we live miserable lives because they hate that.

It's obvious that's not true.

I don't know. I think that a lot of people have normalized to people really faking it online. And they don't realize that we're like, this is just, this is just us. Just doing our thing. There's not like a hidden behind the scenes experience, but whatever. Yeah. But I, I do appreciate you covering this.

It was like, what, what more could possibly be covered by, you know, your, your post and a valence analysis. But this was, yeah. Sad but interesting. So thank you Malcolm,

and I love it. All right. Love you to eson

okay, there it goes. I really miss talking with you. This is so nice. I needed this so bad.

Well, I love you to death. You've done a great job today. You've been on top of everything, and I'm really proud of you.

I feel like I'm failing at everything, but I think that's also a very female thing. So, so you're

yesterday found out the kid is still healthy.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the

biggest thing that you're doing right now, is bringing another human into this world. The, the school system is doing well. We've provided very good recent feedback on it. The whistling app is better than ever. For people who don't know about this project, it's to create a chat bot that can talk with our kids and constantly brings the conversation back to educational topics.

We wanna check it out. Check out whistling.ai that's spelled with a z It's a great product. It, it's free for now. We don't even have a system for charging you to use it, so, you know, feel free to us over. Yeah, you

can. I mean, not that we're gonna charge you out, we're gonna charge as we possibly can, but I am so excited about it.

I'm so excited about it.

Yeah. Alright. But we are, and, and the game system's doing really well. We're about to get to the first like stable demo. We had a, a practice demo up for a while. You can check this RFAB.ai if you wanna get on my wishlist for this or something. We're trying to create virtual worlds using ai,

It's weird how many things we're doing. It's like, oh, well just do everything. I said, you have way too much main character energy. You're just like, well, if no one else is doing it, I guess I'll fix it. I'll make it, I'll, I'll do the daily podcast. That's a, that's an insane thing to do, by the way, people Yeah.

You just kept going. I love it.

Yeah. I, I don't, I don't know how you do it, Malcolm. I have deep respect and admiration for you. I love you a lot.

I like getting nice. You're really nice, Octavian. You're a great big brother. You're doing great Big brother things.

Join Malcolm and Simone as they dive into the fascinating concept of 'Non-Linear Ethnic Niches' and their dominance in various industries, from grocery stores in Detroit to Dunkin Donuts in Chicago and Vietnamese nail salons. They discuss examples from Arc Ethereum's research, the historical and economic implications, and even ponder whether such niches can be engineered ethically for future techno-feudal societies. Alongside, they explore the significance of such niches, historical parallels, and how they could play a role in a post-globalized world driven by AI and demographic shifts.

[00:00:00]

Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I'm so excited to be talking with you today, especially because I just learned about this thing. It's really weird. From Arc Ethereum. He, he writes, did you know that Chian own 90% of the grocery stores in Detroit? 40% of the truck drivers in California are Sikh, and about a third. US Sikhs are truck drivers and that 95% of Dunkin Donut stores in Chicago in the Midwest are owned by Indians, mostly Gujarati Patels. What?

வணக்கம் உங்கள் அலுவலகத்தின் நேரத்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின்

முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் முதல்தின் ம

Simone Collins: And then in New England and New York, 60% of Dunkin Donuts are operated by Portuguese immigrants.

90% of the liquor stores in Baltimore are owned by Koreans. And all of these are apparently what ARC Ethereum calls and other people, other people's [00:01:00] had called non-linear ethnic niches. And it like, these are these weird industries. That are dominated by ethnic groups, but not like, because obviously those ethnic groups should dominate them.

No,

Malcolm Collins: I think it is obvious. I think that they were just bred, I think Indians are bred to run convenience stores. This is, it's an entire country breeding experiment to create the perfect convenience store owner. I'm gonna put like an APU thing here.

Simone Collins: Well, no liquor stores and Koreans. There are more like Cambodian donut shops.

Why Cambodians and Donuts? No. There is no, and like by the way, in, in all the research on non-linear ethnic niches, they remove all the ones that should be considered obvious, like Chinese people and like Chinese restaurants. 'cause obviously like Dove, of course they would maybe dominate that. Although I feel like.

Actually they don't. So you might, right, like, aren't Chinese restaurants mostly like Korean run or something? They're mostly

Malcolm Collins: run by Koreans. Yeah. Or Mexicans. I feel like I've seen more Mexicans running No, no, no. It's mostly Koreans because white [00:02:00] people can't tell the difference. And so they're like, oh yeah, this makes sense.

It just seems authentic.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But no, they, they've actually parsed this out and here's the thing. Okay. Ethereum who introduced me to this concept, and we've done some podcasts and other essays he's written, he, he's, he's fun in that he is spicy takes, we don't necessarily agree with all of them, but they're quite interesting.

He thinks they're terrible and I think they're freaking awesome. Okay. Okay. Go explain, explain the regression of everything that we've ever done is society, and I'm like, this is. Exactly what we need right now. You,

Malcolm Collins: you wanna create some sort of like, ethnic carve out for my, our family and people. I

Simone Collins: want to make a non-linear ethnic niche.

I want to engineer one. And so what I wanna do with this episode is I wanna walk you through mm-hmm. Some of the examples here that Ark Ethereum describes. 'cause it's one, this is just super interesting. I, I, I like, I guess we've, we've kind of seen it, but I never really thought about it. Because, you know, I don't see race, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: I don't, I don't know. I

Simone Collins: didn't know Of course not. Of course not. Yeah. I

Malcolm Collins: only, I only see race. That is the [00:03:00] only thing I use to judge people is just race.

Simone Collins: Just like Jack, Jack Donkey just sees numbers on top of people's head.

If everyone could see the world the way I see it, it would be a better place to live. I bet that's true, Tracy, but , I guess I just see the world the way I see it.

Is he letting me keep this? I think so. I wish I was there so I could play with it. Hi Miss Levin.

Simone Collins: You just see like I. They're, they're race. Have you played ethno, guesser? This is a little off topic, but

Malcolm Collins: No.

What, what is ethno? Guesser. Oh

Simone Collins: god. We shouldn't go into it too much. No, tell me. It's a game. No, you like it's this new game where you see men and women, I think composite faces, and you're supposed to like, choose. Zi would

Malcolm Collins: be really good at this. He can like, no,

Simone Collins: he's like, he, yeah, no, he, he obviously is gonna be like the world class ethno guesser winner.[00:04:00]

But like now everyone can try to become like Zi Kahan get better at judging people's ethnicities upon sight. Yeah. He's, he is, he is insanely good at, I don't know how he does it. But anyway, now you can become good at that too, through the game. Ethno, guesser. But anyway yeah, I don't see the world like that.

I just see, I just see like. The number of actions that I might need to complete to end an interaction with someone and get away. I think that's probably how I see the world anyway, though. I wanna walk you through some of his examples. Then. I wanna walk, walk you through the, the unifying elements, like how these form I.

Because what these, we, these niches are, are essentially like industries that come to be owned by a group of people that thereby create high barriers to entry and have a distinct advantage in an industry. And while ARC Ethereum thinks these are awful in a post demographic collapse post AI world where we end up with techno feudalism, this could be the thing that saves your people.

You know what I mean? Like you want to own an industry. [00:05:00] Yeah. And he's just assuming that we're going to like, continue with globalism, that we're gonna continue with open markets and I don't think we can. Depend on that. So I'm like, alright. I mean, he's like, oh, it's like this horrible cast system. And I'm like, I mean, yeah, but if the shoe fits, wear it right.

Like this is what we're headed towards. Well, you, you have four ethno cast systems. No, I'm not for it, but like, if that's what we're headed to, wouldn't you rather make sure you're in a good group?

Malcolm Collins: Surely he has some hypothesis here.

Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah. So let's, let's let's just to, to quote him and why he thinks they're bad.

He says. Non-linear ethnic niches are harbinger of the reversal of centuries of social progress toward interpersonal cooperation and economic progress toward larger, more homogenous and better integrated markets. I don't know if I'd like homogenous markets but anyway, they are super interesting. So he quoted, and he didn't come up with this concept in a 1999 and New York Times article.

They are defined as a certain ethnic group becomes entrenched in a clearly identifiable [00:06:00] economic sector. Working at jobs for which it is no evident cultural, geographical, or even racial affinity again, like Cambodians and donut shops. He starts with this example that actually Albanians own cocaine smuggling in the uk.

Like it's an issue. Like why did they, you know, how did that happen? Okay. Yeah. I, he, he gave all the examples that I cited above, and then he goes into a couple of case studies which is interesting. He talks about Cambodian donut shops. Which is interesting. He talks about Patel motels and he also go

Malcolm Collins: into it.

What, what about them?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay. I, I can if you want to. It's, it's, it's, it's actually so interesting. He says Cambodians run about 80% of the donut shops in Southern California. Cambodians, just to give you perspective, are 0.17% of the population in California. Wow. 80% of donut shops. Right. Okay. Yes.

This is, don't, like, so he sees that and he's like, oh, end of society, and I'm like. Okay, how do I get that percentage? What next? What next? Keep going. The Cambodian donut Empire got its [00:07:00] start with refugee Ted Goy, who first learned the trade thanks to an affirmative action program to increase minority hiring at wind shell's, donuts.

The Cambodians were able to totally dominate this traditional American culinary sector through a mix of extended family credit and the use of dong tines, an informal lending club. So basically he explains it like, because they gave each other cheap credit and were sort of like in with each other.

They were able to take over this industry. Now, Patel Motels, Gujaratis mostly with a surname, Patel run an estimated 42% of hotels and motels in the United States. I just like that is so mind blowing. This is a huge industry.

Malcolm Collins: 42%

Simone Collins: are run 40 by tis.

Malcolm Collins: What are Borates? This is some like Indian, I think

Simone Collins: tis are a, a subset of the Indian population.

Let's look it up.

Gujarat is a state of India, so it's like St. Californians, I guess, you know.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, great.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Just again, for like perspective, Gujaratis are about 0.3% of the US population are write 40% of the hotels. Yeah. [00:08:00] 42% of hotels, 0.3% of the US population. And he writes, and this number was much lower back in 1999 when this phenomenon was first noticed, this rises to 80 to 90%.

Of motels in small town America, the Patel Motel Cartel. Oh sweet, sweet Art Ethereum. I love that. Got its start with an illegal immigrant con. KBA decide in the 1940s, so this goes way back. The initial attraction to Patels was that motel ownership did not require English proficiency as is with the Cambodians Patel motel owners were able to use informal ethnic loan networks and immigrant family labor, brought in via family reunification from India to undercut their American competitors.

Hmm. See this? This is something I can play with. And now Patels, she in labor, we can do that too. Uh uh Yeah. And we're gonna go through it. I have a whole plan. All right, we're, we're good here. Okay, great. F**k, they Patels now totally dominate the hospitality industry in the US outside of being chains Patel Rights.

So now let's go to Vietnamese nail [00:09:00] salons which are, are such a thing. Apparently over half of the nail salons in the United States are Ethereum rights are run by Vietnamese, which rises to more than 80% in California. Whereas Vietnamese people are 0.7% of the US population.

As soon as I walk in, they greet me right away. Hi honey. What you need today?

Oh, um, can I get my nails done? Okay, honey, do you lie pedicure too? Uh,

Simone Collins: again, like this is just so mouthwatering like a, as people who've worked in private equity and vc, this concept of like that kind of level of market domination.

Yeah, mind blowing, mind blowing, like no one would ever even like propose that like, I could take over this much of the market, but you can with the right, with the right tools. Just like the Patels and the Cambodians Athere Emirates, Vietnamese immigrants were able to finance nail salons more easily than American competitors because they had access to below market credit from family and friends.

[00:10:00] Pro-immigration conservatives often celebrate the small business ownership characteristics of non-linear ethnic niches as a route to simulation. But that's backwards. As with the Patels, Vietnamese refugees were attracted to nail salons because they didn't require English proficiency. In fact, this enabled ethnic separation from America.

And I, I see his point here like that kinda sucks. He also points out though later in his essay that this phenomenon actually diffuses a couple generations in. So this mostly is, is kind of stuck to first generation immigrants. And then once these people have kids. The kids don't wanna do it anymore.

And I think that that's, you know, so like his arguments around assimilation, I'm not too concerned about,

Malcolm Collins: well it appears to me to be, because they are running these companies in ways that is strictly worse as a lifestyle than just getting a normal job. Yeah. And this is you know, I, you know, obviously Simone and I work with a lot of immigrant families.

We've worked in other countries a lot. Japan, Korea, Peru and. You know, so I've talked with particularly [00:11:00] Korean immigrants who went into these types of industries, like the restaurant industry. And what they said is they're like, look, it's not like it's a better job to be running a restaurant. It's actually pretty risky.

It's rough. It's pretty long hours Bad lifestyle. Yeah, it's pretty tough. They're like, but because of my language skills. I couldn't get hired at any English speaking restaurant. Just hired. Yeah. Like, who else is gonna hire me? Yeah. I couldn't hire or, or gimme

Simone Collins: autonomy and here's what, yeah. And they're

Malcolm Collins: like, well, and they're like, well, no, no, no.

A lot of them, they came in and they were like doctors and stuff, and they're like, I couldn't get hired because of my language skills as a doctor. So what I had to do was start my own company. Yeah. And I knew a lot of people in this industry, so I started in this industry.

Simone Collins: Well, and so what, what arc Ethereum points out happens here is what the, the characteristics of the niches entered is.

They are low prestige but they offer high social mobility so no one else wants to take them on. And they have typically like sort of a [00:12:00] cap to market size. Like you can't get too big in them. So like big investors aren't throwing in money. Because kind of like you see with like mail salons, motels, donut shops, like yeah, you're, it's, it's really hard to grow super big in that unless you have a big chain and you need tons of financing.

So they go in. But it still enables them, you know, if you work at a restaurant and you're not, it's like renting, you know, you're not putting equity into anything. If you own the restaurant, you'll get that equity over time. So that's those three characteristics. Smallish market, very not, not romantic, not, not ideal, like no one wants to work there.

And still it offers upward mobility. So here's the, the, I I tried to make a list going through various cases and observations that he threw in because he has a lot of citations in this. I do recommend reading his article, his subject article on this subject. But here's why they form one labor arbitrage from first generation immigrants.

Where they sort of access lower cost labor from abroad is big. 'cause they're able to hire, like, you know, we have to hire people [00:13:00] who speak fluent English in addition to Spanish. Right. They just need to hire someone who speaks Vietnamese or Cambodian or whatever. Right? Yeah. Also first gener generation immigrants are willing to do higher hard work.

That's second gens and native borns just. Aren't. So you're also able to hire people who are genuinely hungry. And I think especially so when you look at all these bougie people going into food service and making like, crumble cookie or like all this like I worked in food service at a, a cupcake shop owned by two wealthy Canadian women, and they just hired a bunch of like entitled university students and.

It was, it, you know, the turnover was really high. The students didn't work that hard. They didn't do a very good job. Like, it's, it, I think when you, when you hire native foreign Americans or even. Yeah. Like they, you're just not gonna get that quality of labor and like immigrants are hungry, especially if they don't have other options.

The, then the micro loan, micro loans, like he kept pointing out like all of these, these groups were basically providing below market credit and loans and liquidity that you just [00:14:00] wouldn't get from a bank, even like an SBA loan. And so. There's something about the access to capital here that's really giving these businesses a leg up when other people try to enter Well, what it's

Malcolm Collins: is access to capital within, in industries that these traditional capital sources aren't willing to invest.

Yeah. Yeah. You're like untouchable. Get a bank loan to start like a nail salon. You're gonna struggle to get a bank loan to start, you know, a motel in a small town America. 'cause they're gonna be like, where's the demand? How would I, you know, where are the, the, the assets that are gonna continue to have value?

Simone Collins: And yet the people within the industry are, are really well positioned to determine if someone's worthy of a loan because you get, you know, personal references like their cousin who grew up with them also, like you understand the industry because you're in it, so you know it. And so, I mean, there's really something very smart about understanding an industry and you being the one to provide the financing.

Because we've, we've gone through the process of having banks due due diligence on us to loan money to our businesses, and they like just totally don't understand the business and their key bets on [00:15:00] our loan payback. Are based on the stupidest things, and they think that it's like smart and they're like, oh good.

Like based on our calculations, everything's gonna be okay. And we're like, yeah, yeah, you think that like you really should be looking at this thing over here and you're not. And that's incredibly dumb, but we're not gonna say anything. So I think it's really smart. Then there's of course like even more informal things like equipment loans and access.

Like, you know, if you all own seven elevens and someone's slushy machine breaks, like you could, you know, it, they, they, he quoted someone in his article about how like. You can just get, you know, a, a solution really quickly. If you need a machine fixed, you get the machine fixed, you know, you're not depending.

It very much like the whole issue of the atomization of the family. Where now you have to like pay a babysitter and like find you know, find someone, you pay someone to do everything and they're not necessarily motivated to help you. And they're like, ah, I don't know. Like I don't feel like it's, yeah, I can't come out.

Like you have people who will be there for you because they're your cousin or they're your uncle, or they know that they need your help too. And so it really is a community and that kind of corporate family way that also we [00:16:00] really appreciate, speaking of corporate family, you also get informal employment.

Now sometimes this is like. Very not, okay. Not legal, employment, legal, immigrant. It

Malcolm Collins: sounds like what it is is it's a few people somewhat profiting off of a lot of people working in the types of jobs that wouldn't, you wouldn't legally have in America. Yeah. Or

Simone Collins: like, like literally they're undocumented, illegal immigrants.

Kind of doing indentured servitude slash slave labor for you. Like that's, that, that's the bad end of it. But then the, the better end of it is, is family labor where like, you know, your kids are helping out, et cetera. And like, to a certain extent, this can lead to some like tax avoidance or wage minimizing.

So that's, that's big. It, you know, it enables you to be very lean in terms of your costs while also really supporting an extended family. Plus in terms of of team members, you have much easier vetting of good match employees. Like you have family references, people vouching for others, and we know this.

From a firsthand standpoint because [00:17:00] we've, we've seen the value in hiring siblings and cousins of our existing employees when they get referred, like they just work so much harder and trust, like we go through the normal vetting process. We do open hiring. We, we put ads in papers. We put ads on Indeed and on LinkedIn, and we interview hundreds of people.

And we hire across the board the most qualified people, but the people who have stayed and who have done the best and performed the best fricking family.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, because there's the dual thing of like, yeah, yeah. We, we leaned into just h hiring through family networks. It's, it's amazing. It's, it's, it's one of the best

Simone Collins: source of referrals because there's, there's two elements of it.

One, you have the pressure of the person who referred them, who's like, don't screw up. This is my reputation and my job. And then the other person who's like. Wow, I can't screw up. You know, like there's, there's, there are reasons. 'cause I think right now, oh, are we

Malcolm Collins: participating in this right now? Do we only hire through, through Latin?

You see, the thing is like, I'm like, oh yeah, like

Simone Collins: this is great. We already, but we don't do the whole, you know, informal labor thing. And then, you know, the, there are, I then barriers to [00:18:00] entry, which are created by all this, right? Like if you are trying to enter the nail salon business in California. You know, it's, I, I think it could be kind of tough when it's kind of dominated by all these other people.

In fact, some nail like cosmetology schools that, that certify people for this, that what you need to do, to do nails, whatever that is. Teach their classes in Vietnamese, like they've just given up on English. I'm like, screw that. That is

Malcolm Collins: hilarious.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So the, and, and it's this. So just in general then, so there are lower transaction costs around the board, you know, getting things fixed, getting equipment getting getting employees, getting financing.

And we've seen this with other friends. Like one of your friends who started kind of restaurant store business. I think leveraged family a ton. For that. Yeah. His family worked at the business. His family manned the stores, his family helped with sourcing equipment, et cetera. Like that's huge. And I think, you know.

Malcolm Collins: But what's funny is it [00:19:00] was one of those cases of his family was all Peruvian and the business that he was specializing in was like Jamaican style food.

Simone Collins: I know. I mean, but not linear. Oh, I don't know. I mean, I, it, it's just so cool. But. Ah, but, Hmm. No, no, no, no. Not cool Malcolm, because a Ethereum says, so when Art Ethereum

Malcolm Collins: says, so what, what, what?

What's the complaint here? Why? Why is it bad? Says

Simone Collins: once a niche is taken over, outsiders can no longer compete within it. Which I'm like, yeah, that sounds great. Like from an investor standpoint, that's what, that's when we have to raise money for something. Investors always ask like. Well, are there barriers to entry?

Like what's, how, how defensible are you? Like this is, this is the dream okay that he says non-linear ethnic niches exist on and are able to sustain themselves in the face of market competition. This might hurt some Americans, but so do a million other problems. Does it really matter? Yes. Western Civilization has been different for so long, more than 700 years that we've forgotten what this looks like.

But non-linear [00:20:00] ethnic niches are a throwback to pre-modern forms of social organization with all that implies. And he, so he's like, this is the worst progression. Okay, I should

Malcolm Collins: disagree with him here. If you look at ancient Rome, it was well known that certain industries were dominated by specific ethnic groups.

If you look even at. For example pre Nazi Germany, we know that certain markets were dominated by Jews, like I mentioned, like pediatricians. They were, and orthodontists they were. Yeah. So the idea of ethno from like specialized careers is actually like continuous strain from modern western countries to, if you go back to the co colonial period, you will see specific.

Ethnic groups dominating particular niches as we've no mentioned before. By the way, much to their chagrin, the Quakers in dominating the slave trade. Quakers were, I love it, the Quakers slave, Quaker anti-slavery, and I'm like, well, I can look at Quaker wills. And 45% of Quakers own [00:21:00] slaves compared to like at the height of the deep south, it was like 22, 20 3%.

To be honest, I'm a little surprised that he doesn't appear to know that there have always been non-linear, ethnically controlled, , industries. If we look at early America, we can, for example, look at, , in colonial America, particularly in Pennsylvania, German immigrants played a significant role in certain industries.

For example, in Germantown, now part of Philadelphia, Germans were heavily involved in paper making with William Rittenhouse building the first. Mill in the British colonies in 1690. They also dominated printing with Christopher Sawyer and his son establishing a major press in 1738, printing America's first European language Bible in 1743.

Additionally, German immigrants were known for their craftsmanship in weaving, tanning and wagon building, , reflecting their cultural emphasis on skilled trades. Now if you go for other periods, you can look at ancient Rome. , In ancient Rome, the medical profession was notably dominated by Greek physicians.

, So was the tutoring industry, , starting with. Essis of Sparta [00:22:00] around 218 bc. Greek doctors like Galen ocs and soreness of Ephesus brought advanced medical knowledge to Rome. Their influence was due to the advanced state of Greek medicine, which Romans valued, leading to reliance on Greek expertise for both public and private medical care.

, Greeks also dominated the theater industries.

No, no, no. It says

Simone Collins: arc theory of non-linear ethnic niches are slowly dragging western society back into the default human world of tribes, clans, extended families and middlemen. Minorities we escaped 700 years ago. So he. He basically thinks that they undermine individualism and that nuclear families support individualism, which, I mean, just the fact that he is putting nuclear families on a pedestal, of course is like a, a trigger for us.

Right.

Malcolm Collins: Dumb like nuclear families, as we've mentioned before, they only really started as a thing in like the 1920s and they basically stopped being a thing in the 1970s. So, but get

Simone Collins: this, he actually seems to be, and I'll, I'll quote him on this, like, he seems to be. [00:23:00] Actually pedestal and thinking that the atomization of the family was a good thing.

And like here, like here's what he actually says. He says, by breaking extended kin based structures into nuclear families. So by breaking up the corporate family, this is what he is saying. All right. The Western European marriage pattern facilitated interpersonal cooperation based on the task at hand rather than kinship.

Again, what Atomization, go buy it from a store. Go get it from a babysitter. Go, you know, put your grandma on at home. This is

Malcolm Collins: a really bad take.

Simone Collins: I know, I know. This is so fun though. LA rather than kinship Instead, which both enabled cooperation at much larger scales and greatly improved the efficiency of learning.

See. See, he's like gone. He's like drank the Kool-Aid. He thinks atomization is good. He's

Malcolm Collins: completely urban. Monoculture to,

Simone Collins: and this is the thing he's known. This is our Ian. This is the one who is like, you know how to solve demographic collapses. You disempower women,

Malcolm Collins: right? But now he is like, you know how to solve all these problems.

We need to split up the family unit. As we've pointed [00:24:00] out, I know fertility rates started falling. It was not when the woman left the household. It was the man left the household uhhuh. That was the beginning of the nuclear family. The concept that the man would leave the wife and the kids at home and go out and earn wage labor, yeah, that is when fertility rates started falling.

That is the core toxin that we are dealing with as a society is the atomization that he is talking about. All of the problems we have today are downstream. Of that it is these extended family networks and specialization. Mm-hmm. That made our ancestors great.

Simone Collins: No, but get the, get get this though. This is where it gets even crazier.

'cause this just seems so antithetical to like the space in which arc Ethereum is moving. Yeah. But he literally. With this quote is arguing for the urban monoculture and for homogenization of culture. He writes, genetic and familiarly transmitted cultural adaptations do not diffuse from endogenous, endogenous, sorry, endogenous ethnic groups into the broader [00:25:00] population.

Market dominant and middlemen. Minorities are thus problematic for national development. He's basically saying because they don't integrate, they are not diffusing into the sludge. Of the urban mono. This

Malcolm Collins: is like objectively wrong, and we can see this in history. There is a famous case of one of the Ayatollahs one, one of the Spanish emperors at one point was, was during one of these periods where they kicked out the Jews.

Oh. And one of the, the Ayatollahs said the a, a. A letter. I was gonna say an email, but a letter. There was basically a mocking. Have fun being poor. Thanks for all the Jews. Okay. And that's what happened. Spain did suffer economically after this. The duh. Yeah. You know, you, you don't kick out a group that is uniquely good at something.

These groups provide these goods at lower cost. That is why they have been successful, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I don't, I don't wanna pay some, you know, [00:26:00] dilettantish, neoliberal educated white woman to do my damn nails. Alright. That's what the Vietnamese are for. Oh boy.

Simone Collins: Well, so there are some criticisms that he brings up and I'm like, I hear you.

But also like, this doesn't have to be. Ma retained in new non-linear ethnic niches. So he points the very large example of India it when he talks about how they encourage discrimination how entire swaths of the population aren't even given consideration. He writes in a way, India's unique social structures keep pre-industrial economy, even within modern technology with cottage industries dominating factories.

He, he cites, for example, that like studies have found that people would be like. Just pay to not do anything that would put them in proximity with different casts. And, and that India is sort, sort of one of these places that continues to force this sort of caste system that he associates with non-linear ethnic niches.

But let me, let me walk through weather. They're actually awesome. And, and specifically I alluded to it before, free market competition is going to [00:27:00] go hawar with the rise of AI and Yeah. As demographic labs plays out, so like this whole, the whole underpinning of of his argument here is like, well, we all do better when there's globalization and free trade and markets at scale.

But he's just assuming that that's somehow going to continue to be facilitated. But as governments falter and fall apart, as demographic, direct collapse plays out and become more isolationist, and as AI plays out and disrupts the way that businesses and markets work, leaving a huge number of workers unoccupied, we will not have that world anymore as, as cool as it was while it lasted in many ways, though it wasn't cool in all ways.

It's just not gonna last. So my whole thing is. We're gonna lose this. Mm-hmm. And here's this weird like molecule of, of human configuration. The non-linear ethnic niche that actually has a lot of defensibility and advantages. How can we replicate this to our advantage? And I, I really think. [00:28:00] We can't, one, because he points out in two of his case studies that these cartels started with just one person.

The Cambodian donut empire got its start with the refugee Ted.

There are some who call me Tim.

Simone Collins: And that the Patel Motel Ted got, its, its, its start with an illegal immigrant Mr. Desai. So. Here's what we need to do and, and here's what I'd say we do differently. Here's so to replicate, like the good stuff I would keep is focus on a small industry.

I'm gonna say niche biotech, right? Let's, yeah. Yes. Let's modify some humans here. Focus on an industry that other people don't want to be in due to what, in this case, not because it's unromantic, but because they think it's like, it's not low prestige, it's anti prestige, right? People are like ethical considerations and it's abominations and it's like, right, so like.

Us going into that niche, I would specifically say is great. But I mean, if I were encouraging other people to look at this, find something other people don't wanna enter that's kind of small. [00:29:00] But I think niche biotech for us would be amazing. Cheap credit. And you know how we talked about with the index that we would have, like

Malcolm Collins: Simone, by the way, by the way, what you are suggesting here is that we become the Kaman Owens.

Very impressive.

We take great pride in our combat education and training programs. You mentioned growth, acceleration. Oh, yes. It's essential. Otherwise, a mature clone would take a lifetime to grow.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. From, from Star Wars. By the way, the Kaman Owens are the species that they go to to clone all the soldiers that live on like the water world.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You, you're like, just be the Caman Owens. Okay, great. Continue.

Simone Collins: Non-linear ethnic niche. I mean, also they kind of, they look nonlinear. They look ethnically, like somehow they have an advantage in that.

I don't know, like maybe they are just. Somehow, although all the Kevin

Malcolm Collins: ones are clones.

Simone Collins: Oh, well, yeah. So then maybe they're not a non-linear may, they're, maybe they're just an ethnic niche. But anyway, cheap credit, like we would provide, we would create, 'cause we plan to, like later in life, once our kids are [00:30:00] all in order, we're gonna really get the index in order, find a way to like pool a lot of money in it.

And then that money will be lent out, like low, low cost financing to businesses that are then part of the index within

Malcolm Collins: the techno puritan network.

Simone Collins: Either techno, puritanism, or the index. Yeah. Or maybe they're gonna be the same thing. I'm not really sure. Yeah. But also fast tracked hiring. So if you're in the index or if you're in the techno purin network, like.

You, we understand those values are aligned and also probably is going to select for skill sets that are quite useful. So already you have that fast tracked hiring values aligned employees, right? Because if you're in the index or if you're a teop Puritan, like we know that you care about pluralism, you care about long-term human flourishing, like you're, you're gonna be into also this kind of biotechs, accelerationism stuff.

And then family involvement. I want our kids to work in this. I want our kids to, you know, be involved in that low cost apprenticeship. Has for thousands of years been how one, like people who are very junior get their training and their career started. But [00:31:00] two, how business owners gain access to very affordable labor.

Because half the time you were indentured, I think even during colonial times in the United States, you literally signed an indenture to your, let's see if you're the apprentice, what's the boss called? And anyway, you were dentured to them basically, and it was very low cost labor, but it was, it was a, it was a worthwhile exchange because you were getting training, often housing and food as well.

Here's what I wanna make it different. I wanna make it cultural and not ethnic. And I think you can already see examples of this where it's a lot more inclusive. It's like an opt-in thing. It's not like, oh. You don't look the right way or you're not No. You're actually

Malcolm Collins: like, like Catholics into the legal profession.

I was

Simone Collins: gonna say, yeah, like look at the Catholic church. This is a very diverse, like people from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all countries, all races, all ethnicities. I. And, and they're all opted in. They're all very ideologically aligned. The LDS have gone kind of halfway there also with like, temple [00:32:00] recommends cards.

Like there's a little bit of this like inside network.

Malcolm Collins: So well LDS applicants are also significantly discriminated against within normal jobs. Yeah. Yeah. So there's also on BYU versus other equivalent schools, and there's basically is like a blacklist for hiring, which I don't understand. Like I,

Simone Collins: yeah.

What's with the, that takes back to that polling you'd found where like. The LVS, I mean, I would be really happy, everyone, everyone scared

Malcolm Collins: to work with like a Scientologist for example. Yeah. And be like,

Simone Collins: yeah,

Malcolm Collins: this is worrying. But like a Mormon, like, come on man.

Simone Collins: I know seriously like great hires. At least the CIA has figured that out.

A lot of government agencies are huge on hiring Mormons, so Yeah. They're just like, someone loves Mormons and it's the US. Government. But now the US government's firing everyone, so I don't know. So also I would, I would leverage labor arbitrage, not from refugee desperation, but from ideological alignment, just like the Catholic and church does.

Right. And I mean, to a certain extent the LDS does too. But like when you become a priest, when you enter the church in service, you're not making a lot of money. And they're, [00:33:00] they're definitely benefiting from your labor, but also you don't care because. One, they take care of you. And there's a lot of just, just mimetic alignment.

Like you're happy. So it's not a problem. I feel like it's, it's a lot less ethical what's happening with refugees. 'cause you're, you're just stuck. You don't have other options. You're trapped. I want opt-in, not opt out. Like, I mean, I want opt-in, not I. You're there 'cause you have no way to opt out. And I would also leverage apprentices and not refugees for low cost, but high training employees.

Like I would want our children to apprentice in this. And it's, I think it's just so much more valuable than like going to college. So also, like, you don't end up in permanent debt,

Malcolm Collins: so, and I don't think that you can study like real genetic science in college anymore because they're,

Simone Collins: no, not with ethics board, not with like.

This, this consensus that crispr, you know, gene editing and multiplex gene editing are like, oh, scary germline gene editing. Oh, God forbid. Yeah. So like exactly.

Malcolm Collins: We, we will create the, the hominoid, the rise of the [00:34:00] hominoid. Well, that's the

Simone Collins: other thing is, another thing I'd wanna do differently is obviously what exists with non-linear ethnic niches now, because they are actually ethnic in nature, is they'll look a certain way.

I would like, I wanna bring everyone in, but also like, because we're biotech, it'd be like really cool if like you enter, but like, you know, 80% of the people who enter opt in to have like their eyes turned purple. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like their irises. Oh. Like, oh, you know, you know that they're part of the biotech cartel.

'cause they have lavender. Which would be really cool. Something like that. You know, like you, you could tell you're immediately Oh,

Malcolm Collins: they're different. Yeah. Like, yeah, it

Simone Collins: becomes ethnic, but it's also a feature like you're showing off your wares. You know, or that like your heartbeat shows up as a tattoo on like your cheek, you know, all sorts of crazy things or something.

Right. And I would also wanna, one thing that I didn't really get into, which he does bring up, is a legitimate concern in his article is that most of these ethnic niches, they, they, they compete and they build barriers to entry just by [00:35:00] being very. Low cost. Mm-hmm. And like undercutting costs for everyone else, sort of making it just too hard for anyone else to compete.

But in turn they're also pretty conservative and not innovative, and they're not also, like, there's not a lot of competition and variance, which of course is antithetical to innovation. And I, I agree. That's bad. Like I, I'm with ARC Ethereum on that, so I'd wanna create incentives that encourage competition.

And I think it's really easy to do that especially based on like how we would provide more funding and, and how also the index is designed to encourage in intercultural competition and remixing. And also just to, to be very clear, I would want it to be inclusive. Anyone should be able to opt in if they're ideologically aligned.

And again, like I just, and better

Malcolm Collins: than other people,

Simone Collins: like we are going to end up in a a, a. What do, what do we call it? Futile techno Futile world.

Malcolm Collins: Techno futile world. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we're heading into. So

Simone Collins: like, you, you need to sink or swim here. You know, like, I love this idea [00:36:00] that like, globalism will last forever, but it, we are headed toward and you don't

Malcolm Collins: love it.

Come on. Do you really love it or are you just like,

Simone Collins: I don't know. I don't know. I, there were things about it that I love. And there are, there are things about it that aren't so great but. Yeah, I mean, I, I think it doesn't matter whether I liked it or not, it's not going to last, like the signs point to it not lasting.

So we have to plan for something better. So is there anything else that you would try to replicate or do differently? No, I

Malcolm Collins: love everything you're saying here. I want to play it out. Let's do it. Okay. Let's cut the rest of the world. I mean, I might add like two industries. I was gonna have two industries that I would really focus on.

Okay. It would be, the, the human genetic research Yeah. And augmentation.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: human AI integration or human computer integration like brain computer interface and stuff. Like, that's what I got my degree in. That's what I started my career in.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Because I think those are the two areas where a lot of people are squeamish about Yeah.

You know, engaging. Yeah. And I think that you know, [00:37:00] you can create a family that's just like a hundred percent all in, in this stuff. Mm-hmm. And you're gonna get, a lot of people and there are fields that are gonna exist in the future. You know, like Yeah. These are, these are persistent fields that are gonna have a persistent degree of societal squeamishness around them.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and we've long dreamed of having a city state that's devoted to something like this. I just, I never thought about it as a cartel per se, and I had never thought about the fact that this has been done for thousands of years. Yeah. And that there are many examples of this. I. Already around the world.

I also didn't realize just how strong these non-linear ethnic niches are. I mean, what that, that, that Chaldean own 90% of grocery stores in Detroit. That's just, that's insane. And I Have you figured out who

Malcolm Collins: they are yet? The Chian? Yeah. Let's figure this out.

Simone Collins: That's what the internet is for. A, a modern Aramaic speaking Catholic Syria community, primarily from Northern [00:38:00] Iraq.

Hello? Specificity. Okay. Detroit grocery stores. Good for you guys. Good for you. But yeah, I mean, there's absolutely no reason why a modern AIC speaking Catholic Syria community, primarily from northern Iraq would be really good at grocery store management. But they are, apparently, they're

Malcolm Collins: really good at getting very inexpensive labor from northern Iraq.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Apparently.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway. I love you did ask Simon. It's just fascinating. Very interesting topic. I appreciate you prepping this episode, bringing this up. Fans can like and subscribe if you appreciate when Simone does an episode. Yes.

Simone Collins: Yes. Do you, do you like the. The dumb female speaking more, or is it very annoying?

ICI could imagine it grates on on many. But

Malcolm Collins: yeah, I mean, I can understand people not wanting the dumb female talking for, for what Worth? I'm joking by way. I'm joking. For what it's

Simone Collins: worth, the grist for the mill came from ARC Ethereum, who also is highly critical of the professional worth, [00:39:00] dumb female.

So I don't even know. I don't, I don't, I imagine he doesn't think women are dumb. He just thinks that they're toxic. For what it's worth. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Don't, don't mischaracterize him, Simone. I know. I'm sorry. I

Simone Collins: love him. I love your Ethereum. I don't think you're watching this, but. You know, we've done like three episodes.

I mean, at this

Malcolm Collins: point we're pretty big. I wouldn't be, be surprised,

Simone Collins: I guess. Yeah. I'm, I'm just, I'm always surprised, even if like family's aware of what we're doing. I just, we live in our own little farmhouse world and I think, I just love thinking that, you know, we're out, like on, on the Prairie. Nobody already knows what we're doing in the wilderness.

Yeah. Just like do, do by the, I know you saw

Malcolm Collins: Simone, but Aria Babu, who's been on the show, just sent us a wedding invite. It's in the uk so I don't think we're gonna go but really cool that she's getting married. She needs to start pumping out those kids, right?

Simone Collins: Oh, oh, this is such a pretty, oh, it's so pretty.

Website. Oh, oh my god. What? Oh. [00:40:00] Ceremony, photos and fizz lunch. Speeches and cake. Oh, and this is a nice timeline. Ceremonies at noon, you're having cake by 4:00 PM. Do you understand? Like that's how you do it. The weddings we go to, like, we just wanna get the cake and get out there, but it's like 9:00 PM I'm so sad that I won't

Malcolm Collins: be going 'cause I like get invited to weddings so rarely.

Simone Collins: I know one of, I don't really

Malcolm Collins: invest in making friends because, you know, they're gross. I go to

Simone Collins: this though. This, this looks really nice. You

Malcolm Collins: wanna go? I mean, if you wanna go, I can make it happen. You know,

Simone Collins: I'm looking at the dates. I don't know. We don't have any money, especially from throwing it into a hole to save our investors.

Malcolm Collins: Are you really sure? That's a good idea, Simone. Like, listen,

Simone Collins: we'll let the, if the board has an aneurysm, then we won't, but I just wanna do well by everyone. I just want everyone to be happy.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. [00:41:00] Well, and like I was saying,

Simone Collins: like, listen, you're like number two, Google search suggestion is Malcolm Collins billionaire.

If everyone, maybe don't put our

Malcolm Collins: kids at risk trying to make other people.

Simone Collins: But if everyone thinks you're super wealthy, you've like made it like that's, that's I think the only reason why Donald Trump kept, like trying to prove that he was wealthy. So they got on those lists. So if everyone thinks you're wealthy, is it, it's like one of those, like if a tree falls in a forest, if a man is Googled to be a billionaire.

Who's to know that he isn't, you know,

Malcolm Collins: I love you. All right, have a good one, Simone. I love you

Simone Collins: too. Okay. I'm. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Blow it all on this, this loan.

Simone Collins: Well, come on. I'm Well, I'm sure you're glad to be talking about something other than me blowing our savings to protect our investors, but that's our way. It's your family's way. Who was the family member who lost their hand? A whole, like, hanging off a roof to avoid, have somebody interrupt him.

Actually,

Malcolm Collins: one of my, [00:42:00] my namesakes and lost. Yeah. That, that, that happened in the family and we are taught that the investors come first.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So, I don't know. I would rather lose our savings rather than our integrity, our hands. You know? I mean, losing our integrity with investors is a non-negotiable. You do not.

You do not wrong. People who, who placed a bet on you, you do not double cross. Or not even cross. You don't cross with double cross. Oh my God. Like, don't, don't even, you know what I mean? Right.

Do you like your blueberries? Mm-hmm. Yeah. They're the color of the ocean. They're the color of the ocean. Step and kick a mama's back. Step on a brat, a crack, and you break your momma's back. That Do you like your muffin titan? Yeah. Don't step on a or your break your mama's back. Okay. Well please guys, don't step on cracks, okay?

Okay. Okay. You're gonna be very careful about cracks, right. Yeah. [00:43:00] Yeah, because we.

In this episode, we debunk the myth that Muslims will dominate global demographics due to high fertility rates. We delve into the data showing declining fertility rates across Islamic countries and look at the various strategies these nations are employing to reverse this trend. From cultural campaigns and economic incentives to restrictions on family planning, we explore why these measures are failing. Highlighting intriguing case studies from Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE, we discuss the implications and what can be learned from their approaches. Tune in to uncover the complexities of this pressing issue and what it means for the future.

Here is the story I mentioned putting together. If you guys like it I will make more.

I Got Isekai'd as the Eighth Hero But Decided to Become a War Criminal Instead

The Eighth Hero: Audio Book https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x8FvZnsJSambIlYngUS0oYDl2WjT09Je/view?usp=sharing

The Eighth Hero: Text https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AxKVJudMdMZ2oPyS2E0j9rxTQOxDNayvFKjOiwLcLB8/edit?usp=sharing

The Discord: https://discord.com/invite/EGFRjwwS92

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Malcolm. I'm so excited to be speaking with you today, especially because we're talking about a big misnomer in the demographic collapse world, which is that Muslims are gonna take over the world 'cause they're gonna have perpetually high fertility, which is just not true as Kamir recently pointed out on X.

And what's most interesting is when you go into what various Islamic countries and Muslim majority countries are trying to do to keep their birth rates up. It's basically. A buffet, an overloaded buffet of all of the disparate policies of the different camps that the prenatal movements want. There's the culture stuff, which, you know, we are always like, it's the culture, it's the culture's, the culture.

Well, they did that stuff. And then there's the, all the, you know, it's the, there, it's the payout people. Well, it's all about the giving money and cash payouts and cash pays, what they're doing that, and, and then there's also the, the people who are like, no, it's traditionalism and you know, early marriage.

It's the marriage. It's the marriage. Well, they're doing that too. And guess what? They're also doing the whole thing of scaling back, family planning, like taking away access to birth control and abortions. And that's not working either. And so I think [00:01:00] it's really important to look at, at the Middle East and Islamic countries as a case study and say, alright, so there is this world in which everyone got their way.

All the prenatal leaders with all their disparate little pet projects got their way. Why is it not working?

Malcolm Collins: And I, I'd point out here then people are like, well, don't, some Muslim populations have a high fertility rate. Muslims are not high fertility. They're poor. Okay. It's a mistake that people make.

Muslims are actually have a lower fertility than Protestant groups when you control for income. And their fertility rate is so low that despite the relative poverty of the Middle East. Only Iran. You were saying what? What was it? Iraq only. Iraq

Simone Collins: Only Iraq. Only. Iraq. Israel, because I think Israel's a really great.

Like, here's where we are with developed non non-Islamic Middle Eastern nations. And I think it's a really good base. And of course it's, it's the ul Ultra Orthodox Jews that are really propping this up. You know, they're, they're killing it. They're doing great, but they've [00:02:00] figured it out.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So in this episode, what we are going to be covering is crashing fertility rates around the Islamic world. Yes. Crashing fertility rates within the Islamic diaspora. Mm-hmm. What the Islamic communities are attempting to do to decrease this. And there are

Simone Collins: some really, there, there are some policies in here that like.

Are so insane in terms of a over the top. You will not believe it Malcolm. I'm like, what? So there's some good stuff in here.

Malcolm Collins: Great. Okay. Let's go

Simone Collins: and then, and then try to figure out what do we learn from this? 'cause they're not working. So, there's a mio. This, this was all inspired by him because he is so freaking amazing.

We love him. He posted on x basically like a clarification to people because, especially in X as a whole, like Muslims. He writes, there's a myth that the Islamic world has figured out fertility, but it has not, they show the same declining fertility rates that other places have, barring Iraq. The Middle East has lower fertility rates in Israel, and hopefully you could put a, this graph that he shared up on the screen.

Showing this just overall declining [00:03:00] fertility graph and infertility rates births per women in the, the Middle East, basically with Iraq at the top, then Israel, then Algeria, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Oman, Libya, and so on. With the UAE at the bottom. But I love the UAE because you're gonna see they have my very favorite.

Prenatal is policy. I can't wait to get to it. And this graph that we're seeing really tracks global fertility rates in general. And that's an argument that Mio makes in the comments of this thread where people are like, oh, what about this? What about that? And he's just pointing out, no, everywhere this is happening.

And that I think is a really important theme of all this. So he continues in his thread. Exceptions, maybe Yemen and maybe Palestine, both of which have terrible data. So their comparative situation is unclear. But two things on that. Firstly, Jewish fertility is the head of Arab fertility in Israel, and he shows a graph of fertility rates in Israel of basically the average number of births per woman for Jews and others in Israel, and then Arabs in Israel.

And what's really [00:04:00] interesting with this graph, if you're just listening Arabs in 1990 were at. Eight, eight kids per woman and Jews were hovering a little bit below four. They were at at 3.49. And now in 2018, or at least as of 2018, they were basically at exactly the same spot 3.05 for Jews and 3.04.

For Arabs. And so Arabs just are, are freaking plummeting. And there's something, and this is why we're always so interested in Jews and in Jewish culture and like what's going on in Israel, right? Because they are holding strong in the face of modernity. So anyway, REU continues. Secondly, Israeli fertility might be just ahead or slightly behind.

Palestinian fertility, depending on the source. Israel, Israeli growth is definitely head of Palestinian growth due to immigration, Palestinian immigration and Palestinian mortality. So he shows another graph, fertility rates, births per women in Palestine, in Israel, again, Palestine. Arab Islamic [00:05:00] Muslim going down, Israel, holding steady.

So he continues. So no, I don't believe in Islamic excellence in fertility. Even their famously fcan culture is not immune to the global baby. Bust, not in Denmark. And then he shows basically after. Muslim immigrants spend some time in Denmark. Their fertility plummets, they normalize to normal Denmark fertility levels.

He continues, nor in France. And even if we look at second generation immigrants not shown in the graph. He, he had but linked below and we can link to his same sources and then he shares his sources. And, and basically he shows that the diaspora that's Middle Eastern also doesn't have great fertility.

So once they leave, 'cause a lot of people were like. Okay, yeah, fine. In these, in these countries, they're bad. But then, you know, they go to other countries and that's where they're spreading so much. But no sweeties, no. So like one, the source is drying up and two, once the diaspora goes out there, they, they drop in fertility even faster.

I. So I think what's really important is that [00:06:00] you, the stereotype exists for a reason, right? That, you know, Muslims are high fertility because this is a culture and a religion that supports that. You know, like traditionally this is, you think of, of traditional Muslim families and it's, it's young marriage, it's a lot of children.

It's very traditional gender roles, right? So you think like, these guys are going to, they're gonna like, they're gonna be the fine ones. No one's gonna have trouble with them. We don't have to worry about them. And indeed these countries have really, at least after they've. Gotten over, freaking out over too much population and they've really put in a lot of effort

Malcolm Collins: when they started a lot earlier.

So for example, Iran as an example, started its massive fertility efforts about 10 years ago. So what's interesting about the data we have from these countries is they give us a lot of data on long term and quite dictatorial implications. Implementation of often the most aggressive forms of prenatal list policy that people can imagine.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Because from the 1980s to the two thousands fragility in Iran dropped from 6.5 to 1.7 children for [00:07:00] women. So, like Iran is especially boned and they're also kind of the leader in, in like fertility obsession. I mean, I kind of see them as like the hungry of the Middle East, you know, like they're kind of the ones who are like, yeah, rah, rah, rah.

So in terms of their policies, I. They've totally reversed their family planning programs. They scaled back their birth control programs and even in 2014 they proposed bans on vasectomies to restrict sterilizations and encourage higher birth rates, very similar to what's going on in China.

So stuff that, you know, China's. Like just getting used to, this is like old conversations in Iran. So they also have pass cash payments for additional child. Oh, all the socialists love this. You know, limestone super happy. Right. You know, he loves this stuff. Right. And then then for on our part, they're they're, they have a big cultural push.

For prenatal as policy, Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Alni has publicly condemned contraception as a Western influence, promoting larger families as a national and Islamic duty. So this is clearly, you know. [00:08:00] At least on a national level, they're really trying to push prenatal as this is, this is good, this is for your country.

And then they of course, have various bills proposed that are supposed to penalize the promotion of contraception which is very similar to stuff that's been proposed in project 2025. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of parallels, but they've already been there. Which is important. Yeah. When we, and

Malcolm Collins: we can see from this that I, Iran actually has had his fertility rate up go, go up a little bit recently.

Mm. So it's not that the policies are having no effect.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You know, if anything, and I think Ew would argue this, the cash payments are probably the biggest thing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: He's and we can have his separate podcast about this, he's kind of changed my mind a little bit about direct cash transfers. Oh yeah.

We, we could have, I mean, this is, I think it's important for us to, when we moderate our views, well that's no

Malcolm Collins: topic, but let's talk more about the other policy. Yeah, let's, let's

Simone Collins: go to Turkey. Which I fell down the other, the other, like, I think a year ago Turkish hospitals where women are giving birth.

It's like a whole thing. [00:09:00] They, these are like luxury hospitals. You get all the flowers, you get all these, like, they're literal. There's a, a small economy. Built just around huge decorations and celebrations and meals and parties like literally held for you in the hospital. And there are like celebrity doctors delivering kids like the, I can already tell even before, before reading about Turkey's prenatal is policies that this is a country that's really making it cool.

Simone Collins: And what I think is important there is. When I see it on Instagram, like when people are flexing it on Instagram, it's not like a cringe thing that like, you know how the CCP is kind of trying to pressure people and to have kids, they don't think it's cool, but knowing Turkey, like they're actually flexing it on Instagram.

They're actually excited about it, and I think that's really important to note. But you know, in general, what I think is really funny is that Erdogan has repeatedly urged families [00:10:00] to have at least three children and he, he frames family planning and contraception as. Treason, which is amazing. It's treason.

I love it. 'cause Turkish nationalism, treasonous people. So I mean, not, I think they take a step beyond the Iranian thing of just like, this is for your country, it's your duty, it's nationalist. Like, no. You're freaking treason for not having kids treasonous. I love that. But also back to stuff that, you know, a lot of people really advocate for, including reu, including all the people who are like, yes, Marxism they have they have housing support.

They have maternity benefits, they have tax breaks. I think tax breaks are great for families. They have subsidies for newlyweds, which is big. And also campaigns to, to reinforce traditional family structures. So, you know, the sort of the heritage camp, the religious traditionalists would love that, right?

Early marriages support the family. And then they also have extended maternity and parental leave policies. Really what these, I, the funny thing about maternity leave and parental [00:11:00] leave is I only really hear non ISTs advocating for it because basically,

Malcolm Collins: do they always advocate when they hear a prenatal list advocating for something, they get really mad and they're like, why aren't you advocating for this?

And that's because it's really

Simone Collins: like the, the funny thing is there's not, not actually any expert in the. In the, in the prenatals world, that's like, yeah, extended parental leave really helps. 'cause it really doesn't, like, there are, there are definitely people who are like, cash payments are very important and we really should be investing in these.

And here is actual robust evidence. And then the, you know, cultural things really do help. There's robust evidence. No one's really standing. Extended parentally, but they're still trying. And you know, every little thing helps. And I think that does, it doesn't

Malcolm Collins: help any families, but I think it's something that should be relegated by industry.

Mm. And not holistically.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like for some work from home is just such a better policy. But, you know, if you work in food service or in hospitals and things like that and you have to show up and it's very difficult.

Malcolm Collins: And, and then per industry, I think it should be, the childcare center should be the responsibility of the company.

[00:12:00] 100%.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, if,

Malcolm Collins: if they're going to demand that somebody comes to work, which I'm totally okay with.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So let's fly over to Saudi Arabia whose TFR has declined from over seven in the 1970s. Woof to 2.4 in recent years. So the government has been a little bit less aggressive in this case. It, with prenatals policies, I think.

'cause they're like, oh, 2.4 is fine. Like, we're doing great. But they, they are focusing more on economic diversification. And I think that's actually really smart. Because, you know, another element that really predicts good fertility is good economic prospects. And I think Saudi Arabia very reasonably is like, we can't depend on this one industry forever.

So I think they're doing the right thing, but they're also doing the cultural reinforcement thing. They state backed clerics are really pushing, you know, for having a family. There aren't really that many explicit. Government campaigns, but I, I think we're gonna argue later that that actually kind of backfires.

And they do have subsidies for housing, subsidies, for education, subsidy for healthcare. And while these things aren't directly [00:13:00] branded as prenatal as they are, like, they definitely can help. And then also they have extended maternity leave, which again, I don't know. So Qatar or Kaar, I guess how some people say it.

They have a, like two to three fertility rate. And they also have housing grants, child allowances, state sponsored programs promoting traditional family. Again, the heritage camp loves that. They have free or subsidized maternal, healthcare and child healthcare, which again helps, you know, like in terms of, you know, more births.

Whole thing about this is a fertility stack. It's a bunch of factors. Most of these countries have multi-pronged strategies. Here, we've got the payouts, we've got the extended leave, we've got the cultural leadership. And it's still not working. But let's go to the, the UAE 'cause this is my very favorite.

Okay. One, they have one of the lowest fertility rates in the region. They're like 1.5 to 1.7. So like at the US level or maybe a little lower. And the, the us, the, the, the Emirati government, it's like uniquely [00:14:00] concerned. I think about kind of like cultural genocide, which they should be. We, we cite them as like, one of the classic examples of, of people who are gonna disappear, like South Koreans, like Emiratis, native Americans, Janes, like, they're on that go-to list.

We give, obviously they have childcare incentives and childbirth incentives. So they give subsidies and benefits for Emirati families like education support, healthcare support and they have national identity campaigns that sort of are like, yeah, like be proud to be Emirati, but here's my favorite thing.

Can, can you guess like, I hope you haven't read my outline, but like, can you guess?

Malcolm Collins: No, no.

Simone Collins: Okay. Would you get married, Malcolm? This reminds me of that comedy ski you you shared with me on like, what, what is it? Married? Yeah. They have great, great comedy, whatever. They literally, I feel like they're doing that in the UAE.

They're like, Hey, okay. What if we gave you two $20,000 for a wedding? Like literally they're, this is beyond like having a kid. They will give you money for your wedding. So [00:15:00] they have this thing called the, the marriage fund, and it provides financial grants to Emirati men to cover wedding costs in, in, in hopes that they will encourage early marriage and family formation like.

In most cases, you can't qual, well, obviously you can't qualify if you're not Emirati, but also you won't qualify in most cases if you've been married before. So they're like really trying to target like first time young marriages. And so I'm like, this is, this is insane. Like this can't actually exist.

But no, it definitely does exist. According to one source, getting married is also an extremely expensive affair in the UAE Emirati women can officially demand a maximum dowry. Of up to what is this currency called of up to 20,000 Durams, though families often set much higher amounts, so there are dowries, and then the average cost of a UAE wedding has been reported to be in excess of 300,000 durams, so that's approximately $81,677,

Malcolm Collins: which is $81,000 you get.

Simone Collins: No, no, no. That's how much like a wedding can cost, like a typical wedding in the uua e. [00:16:00] Can cost. So, and they

Malcolm Collins: government pays for it.

Simone Collins: But like, because this is a problem, like the government's like, oh, culturally this is kind of an issue. But also like, we don't wanna get rid of our culture, so what do we do?

Well, I guess we'll pay people for weddings up to 20,000 US dollars. So then that like cuts it down 20 thou. What if the traditional UAE wedding look like? I mean, they gotta, it's gotta be great, man. But yeah, there's, there's been. There's some, like one of the reasons why this grant program began is there's some speculation that Emirati men are choosing to marry foreign women in order to save money.

So this brings us back to the passport bro. Thing of like, I just looked up

Malcolm Collins: UAE wedding and it's a bunch of Emiratis marrying foreign women.

Simone Collins: That's the only way to make it sustainable.

Malcolm Collins: That's the only was proposed to by an Emirati Royal. What? Yeah. I won't say her name on air, but yeah. My sister had a, a marriage proposal from one of the, if I remember correctly, one of the Emirati Royal families.

One of the big [00:17:00] ones too, actually. Not like one of the side ones.

Simone Collins: That is insane. That is insane. Well, but I, okay. This fund, though, I'm obsessed with this fund, like literally here's your wedding money. The fund is led by a committee, which is selected by the UAE government to enable nationals who are battling to raise the funds to cover their wedding expenses.

So they give away approximately three, 3000 grants on an annual basis. Where couples can expect around 70,000 omes, and that's, that's about $19,000. And they get 30,000 upon the announcement of the marriage, and then the rest is handed to them once they've begun their wedding plans. So you have to kind of like show that like the wedding's actually gonna happen.

But you get like. 30,000 upfront. And in addition to providing the financial assistance of this grant, they also provide guidance for couples before their wedding ceremony on like lectures and like how to handle sexual relations. And then also 300 UAE nationals are married in group weddings hosted by Sheikh Mohammed, bin Zed, [00:18:00] the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi.

So also like literally if you are. Okay with a group wedding, and I guess a lot of women are probably like, no, not for me. You need to do all the things. But like. It's also hosted by the shake. Like, I don't know. I feel like that could be decent. I've been to

Malcolm Collins: any sort of group events in the UAE before that are hosted by like world and they can be pretty decent.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, like you're, they're in a palace, right? I mean, I mean, often what you're outlaying a lot of cash for is to get married in a palace with a lot of food. The only problem is that it's just not, it's not, you're a special day Malcolm, and I don't think, like you get the whole thing for women, it's, it's supposed to be all about the woman.

What about her? But anyway, you can't have a group wedding, but I just, that is, that is a prenatal is policy. That is so. Out there, and I get the cultural reasons and everything, but I'm just like, man, like we're just trying to scrape together for like $5,000 per kid had in the United States and like, here's the UAE and they're like, here, [00:19:00] here's $20,000 for your wedding

Malcolm Collins: winning.

Oh my God. I it not kids yet.

Simone Collins: I just think it's so great. You know, Egypt, Egypt, if we're moving on has a relatively high TFR at at three, but the government has, it's, it's, it's also focused on reducing fertility. So they're still kind of like transitioning from the, oh my God, we have too many people still.

They provide subsidies for food, education and healthcare.

Malcolm Collins: Really unique. They have a pretty high fertility rate, right? Three.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: they're three. And they are massively overcrowded. Egypt is a great example against the argument that it is about.

Simone Collins: Oh. Having space, having leverage from, and

Malcolm Collins: you keep me on, if you just look at like the, the land mass of Egypt to the fertility rate of Egypt or the population of Egypt, you're like, what?

No, they have a very low density of population. Oh. And then you look at like a light map of Egypt or a, a population map of Egypt, and you're like, oh yeah, I forgot you can only live in like 2% of the Egyptian landmass. Yeah. Rest is a horrifying desert. It's a fricking sand. And, and if you go to [00:20:00] Egypt, you know, I, I, I've driven around there it is super, super crowded, super, super people stacked on top, top of people.

Mm-hmm. And yet the fertility rate is really hot. Yeah, that actually might be an interesting question to explore is why is the Egyptian fertility rate as high as it is? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And, and also like, even in the face of them, really the only interventions they've placed so far to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down.

Like, can we not? So, you know, because Iran did that and it worked really well. So I don't know if it's poverty. I'm guessing that that's it. And I, I, that's that, I mean, that was like, I, 90, 90% confident that that's just the case. But I, I just wanna like, you know, bring it together. This is a who is who of everyone's pet policies.

We've got the cultural and religious messaging. We've got the economic incentives, including like direct subsidies, tax breaks, grants for housing and education, wedding payments. We have early marriage promotion. Heritage is happy with that. All the, the, the marriage people are happy with that. [00:21:00] The religious conservatives are happy with that.

And then scaling back, family planning, you know, all the people who are like, abortion is murder and contraception is killing you and making you infertile like. Again, they're, these are all the things, nothing is missing. This is really

Malcolm Collins: interesting, by the way. I was just looking at the differential average yearly incomes.

Simone Collins: Uhhuh.

Malcolm Collins: So Irans is $5,300. I, I, Iraqs is $4,137. Mm. And Egypt's is 3,636. Well, there

Simone Collins: you go. More

Malcolm Collins: money you, so its significantly poorer. That's, yeah. More

Simone Collins: money for kids. Okay. I mean, unless you make a ton more and then suddenly you have more kids. But I think, so the, the, the thing here though is that it's not working.

The, the, the, the payouts, everything else. I mean, Mio, if you were here might argue, well, you don't know what the counterfactual is. You don't know how much a lower their fertility would be if they didn't provide these subsidies and this cultural support and everything else. [00:22:00] I think it's more in the execution, honestly.

I think that I. As, as Aria Babu PO pointed out, when you look at countries that are on the whole mm-hmm. Culturally conservative, where it's like this oppressive miasma that you have to walk through everywhere. You're not like endogenously excited to have kids.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You

Simone Collins: feel like it's forced on you and then it becomes this burden, and then you're really concerned about having kids.

I even think about the case of Turkey. Where I, I fell down this, this Instagram loop of these insane hospitals and celebrity doctors and in beautiful delivery rooms and parties and balloons and flowers. These women were not having a lot of kids. This was like a first or second kid, and I think they were like, where are this backfired is they're like, oh yes, our culture idolizes the mother and like blah, blah, blah.

But then the way that women are doing it. Is like, well, okay, well then I'm gonna front, I'm gonna show how much, you [00:23:00] know, how many designer clothes I have my kids in and, and how fancy my kids' daycare is. And then they can't afford to have a big family. I.

Malcolm Collins: Which, you know what I mean, which has a lot too.

We're like these giant parties for their kids. Like we don't do birthdays for our kids. I don't see the point of a birthday party. Well, they

Simone Collins: don't like them. I mean, we we're, we're doing what Malcolm calls kid maxing, where we actually just do what the kids really like instead of what we feel like we're supposed to do as good parents.

So for their birthdays, we do whatever it is. Their favorite activity is Malcolm takes them to a store and they get to choose whatever they want, which. Costs a tiny fraction of an entire birthday party. We go to a store and we buy whatever their favorite food is like. For tourin, it's just tons of fresh berries.

And then, you know, for him, he doesn't want a cake. He wants a candle and a dinosaur nugget. And so we do it. Whereas other, other parents would be like, no, you have to have a cake. Can you have to eat your, you know, and like then they cry and they're overstimulated and there's like, kids, I would just

Malcolm Collins: Google if the kid wanted a cake or something like that.

How do I make a good cake? You know? [00:24:00] Yeah. Of the time they want, like, you just make it right. Like,

Simone Collins: yeah. Which is what we do for our kids who like cakes, we've never, we've never bought a cake as a family. Have you realized that you

Malcolm Collins: even see this in the United States where, you know, in our episode where we're talking about how progressive social media significantly mentally hurts people and conservative social media doesn't, somebody is like, well, yeah, that's because you're talking about the modern US definition of conservatives.

Mm-hmm. You know, if we were talking about the conservative culture of the path, social conformity and shaming, and like mm-hmm. Instead of vitalism and excitement about your ancestry and who you are you know, modern conservative is much more based around vitalistic positive nationalism. Yeah. Whereas historic conservatism is based around, you know, having the nun watching you and making sure you're not breaking any of the rules.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And, and then again,

Simone Collins: this is all about intrinsic versus extrinsic. When it is extrinsic, when it's. Forced on you, or even when you are? Well, if you could

Malcolm Collins: have an extrinsic, intrinsic force, Uhhuh the individual who goes online and is so proud of their [00:25:00] conservative tradition and is shaming other individuals for doing things like, let's say, like masturbating or being gay or something like that, right?

Like this individual is the type of conservative that's dying out. And I think that they don't realize that they're not really part of the. Governing apparatus that's going to exist within the conservative movement going forwards. Mm-hmm. Because it's become a fundamentally vitalistic movement.

Mm-hmm. Instead of a nanny state movement. And I think that this is where a lot of these nanny state types have begun. They're, they're like those progressives who haven't woken up of like. Oh, we are the party of the imperialistic authority. Mm-hmm. Like these people haven't woken up and be like, we're not the party of the imperialistic authority.

Yeah. And when they have that wake up, they're like, oh, I'm actually a progressive. I just didn't realize that the parties had flipped yet.

Simone Collins: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. But I mean, so like I, when I, when I'm trying to think through like, okay, what would I do differently if I were these countries? And also [00:26:00] when, for example, the United States does actually decide to invest.

Maybe a lot of money but also at least more policy effort into prenatal policies. How can we go about all these things? How can we go about the fertility stack of more births in a way that's actually effective because they're doing the fertility stack and it ain't working? And so the, the question is, you know, how do we do that, right?

Like, if it's the UAEI, it's clearly a problem that like weddings can cost over $80,000, but like maybe instead of. Shoving out money to people on a limited basis. 'cause that's only 3000 couples per year. You could just be like, well, you know, anyone who wants to book my palace as a venue the palace booking is free.

You can use my staff. And the food is at cost. You know, like, how can you use existing government resources to just make this. More doable and or change the standards. I mean, I know that they wanna keep Emirati culture, but I also don't [00:27:00] think that Emirati weddings always cost that much. 'cause I just don't think Emirati families always had that much money.

Like I don't think traditional Emirati culture is like. Ish, if you know what I mean. Like it is now buddy, and it's now there's you don't wanna like, no, our culture is nivo. I'm a real housewife. Garishness for the sake of garishness. Yes. I mean power to the people. But like, if you wanna do garishness for the sake of garishness and like how can the government do that in a more.

Scalable and efficient way. Because while with this grant program, they're expanding it now to make it more available to people at all income levels, they only at first made it available to people at lower income levels. And then like, ah, you're, you're sort of limiting the program that you're still dissuading people and then like all the rich people are just marrying Russians and Americans and Italians and it's just not working.

But also like, how do you make, how do you support this endogenous. Self-motivated culture, and I think that that's, you know, like having these [00:28:00] government messages, like turkeys, it's treason to not have more children. It's treason to use birth control. Gets along little creepy, like just a little like, I don't know.

It, it goes, it goes too far. So I feel like, I don't know. How would you, aside from cultural sovereignty, which I think is the key thing is like homeschooling, let the weird cultures be weird. Let people do their own cultural thing and encourage weird religious subcultures and cults and all that stuff.

Like what would you do on the culture front?

Malcolm Collins: The culture front? Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Just sovereignty, cultural sovereignty.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I think. You know, in the past, the United States has funded and put pressure on Hollywood to make movies that are nationalistic, that celebrate things like our military or celebrate things like national Pride.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Our school system had entire holidays created around this.

Sort of celebration like 4th of July. [00:29:00] And today, you know, it's like 4th of July, but with qualifications. And I think we remove the wiz qualifications. You don't have a day every year where you unironically as a country celebrate how awesome you are, which America has so many reasons to do. Like, if you are not just wildly brainwashed, uneducated, you'd be like, wow, America's like a really awesome country and like the grand scale of countries.

You are like, well, what about sleep is like. It contrasted was like the great things American has done, the like bad things we've done are just not particularly detracting from the greatness of the country. Hmm. We won a World War and then focused on rebuilding the economies. Of the people we defeated while keeping them as autonomous countries.

Yeah. And not taking their land or money or like that hadn't been done before. The idea of let's help the people we just defeated. [00:30:00] That was a look at like the end of World War I. It was all reparations and punishment and dividing up.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and clearly it went wrong and we saw that and we learned from it.

So it's, I mean that there's also. At least,

Malcolm Collins: no, it's not that. It was, it was. So they when at the end of World War ii, there was this moment where the Americans said We're, we're bringing everyone to the table. And they're like, okay, we're setting the agenda for this. And everyone expected. The, what the Americans are going to do is going to be to carve up their countries and take their land.

Yeah. Or, or give them like really horrible terms. And America was like, no, we're gonna like help rebuild. We're gonna like make everything. And apparently like everyone was shocked, they were like, wait, what? You're gonna do what? You're gonna give us money? You're gonna send. US engineers to rebuild the things you destroyed.

Yeah. You're going to, what are you talking about? Like the, sorry. America, we need to take you aside. This is not what you do when you defeat somebody. America has been, you know, we [00:31:00] denigrate the concept of the melting pot today, and yet it is where all of American culture comes from. You know, if you today look at American.

Cinema, you know, this is downstream of Jewish refugees. Often if you look at American technology, this, there are Nazi scientists. If you look at America music pretty much all forms of American music that have been globally influential came from black people. By this, what I mean is. If you look at modern for example, rock music modern rock music came from blues music, which was a predominantly black form of music.

If you look at modern sorry, did I say rock or country? Country music. I.

Simone Collins: You said rock.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, sorry. Country came from blues. Rock and roll came from jazz and blues. And if you look at hip hop, obviously a black form of music. If you look at modern American pop music, it often came from like rock and country.

Which [00:32:00] again, come from black forms of music. All of American music is, whether, whether you're talking about the countrys of country song is ultimately heavily, heavily, heavily influenced by predominantly black music. And that's okay. Like, that's that something that all Americans have pride in.

Like, I have pride in country music. I listen to lots of country music.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: So yeah.

Simone Collins: So, yeah, I guess more investment in media that supports it. Which actually a big theme in the comments on the REU thread when, where he pointed to these swelling fertility rates was, this, is Western culture diffusing into Middle Eastern culture and Western values.

I. Polluting it. And I'm, I'm sure that's a factor. You know, and I mean also this rampant consumerism, I mean, the fact that Nova Reach has become the aesthetic of the UAE 100% is not helping with birth rates. Like it is not helping. Mm-hmm. It, it can only hurt. So I think you're right there. And in terms of the.

The, the, the economic incentives. I think [00:33:00] the tax breaks are great. I think income tax breaks from a demographic collapse perspective is very good at incentivizing the creation of more high taxpayers because people who pay the high taxes and, and would be excited to pay less of those taxes are also likely to produce through their children future high tax payers.

So it's like you're getting greater bang for your buck. I feel like at that. Grants for housing sound good, but in terms of things like. Childcare, housing setback, like I'm not, I'm not as sure about those. I just feel like maybe they need to be more evidence-based and the whole like extended parental leave thing, if they just took the money that they spent on that and shifted it to just more direct payments and subsidies.

But I think more direct payments in general, they'd probably see better results. So maybe more of it's just about smarter versions of the policies they already have. Early marriage promotion. I'm just surprised, like I'm, maybe this is one of those issues of like, early marriage promotion really does help and they're doing a great job with this, [00:34:00] and if they didn't do it, things would be a lot worse.

But it is interesting to me that despite there being so much traditionalism preached, I mean, I, I do wanna kind of highlight this to people who are in the prenatal movement when they're like, no, this is all, it's all about early marriage. It's 100% early marriage because.

Malcolm Collins: You get that in in, in these countries?

Simone Collins: Yeah, like that. You couldn't do it more than it's done here. Like it's so explicit. You could never get close to the level. Of early marriage promotion in the Middle East that you, that like in the United States, like that would just never happen. So it reminds me a little bit of what happened with Covid, where like, only when we grounded all flights functionally speaking and, and almost everyone stopped commuting and everyone was inside their house, did we reach the level of emissions that, like the, the Paris Climate Accord incremental

Malcolm Collins: reduction that we needed year over year every year by the Paris?

Yeah.

Simone Collins: And it still wasn't enough. And so I feel like that's kind of it. This is analogous with the whole marriage thing like. You know, even that, even if we went to that level with early marriage promotion in the United States, which would be insane, [00:35:00] pandemic mirror, world dystopia level promotion by our standards, by American standards, it would still not be enough.

And, and so I. I do question. I mean, I, I am all for marriage formation. It's so much easier to raise kids when you have someone to help you like it. That's just a logistical truth. It, this is not a a, it has to be a man and a woman thing. Like I don't care if it's a, a, a cat girl and a cat girl. Okay. But like the logistics are easier.

And then the scaling back family planning thing, like, I feel like that's just, that's just so dumb. Like this has been shown again and again to not. To not be helpful. I don't even know if we can count that. Maybe we just have to throw it out. Like, unless you get, I feel like China is gonna be the first country to do this in a way where maybe it works.

Because unlike with Romania, I think instead of just dumping kids in orphanages where they, they languish and are not taken care of, I could see China just being like, yeah, we'll take them now. They're. [00:36:00] CCP babies and we're gonna raise them to be in our CCP Army and it's gonna be like the clone wars and they're just all gonna, it's

Malcolm Collins: gonna be the

Simone Collins: clone wars.

No, I think will

Malcolm Collins: do that.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But see, I think that's the one way. Where removing reproductive choice and going hyper dystopian is gonna work is if you're like, I'm gonna force you to have babies, but also I'm gonna raise them. Because you can't force a, a, a, a person to have a baby and expect them to do a job raising them and like not abandon or abuse them.

You know, you're not gonna create high tax paying citizens or high productivity citizens if you have. This resentful or traumatized or whatever, like coerced slave person. Yeah. Well, from the

Malcolm Collins: perspective of the state, childcare has always been free and that needs to change. Oh, that's a really

Simone Collins: great way.

That's a wonderful way of putting it. Yeah. From the perspective of the state, childcare has always been free. Free. Freeloading

Malcolm Collins: state. Freeloading state, they expected these [00:37:00] taxpayers, come on man.

Simone Collins: Oh my God. Now I'm like, I'm genuinely insulted.

Malcolm Collins: The state is using you, Simone. That is, it makes that you care about the future.

How dare they? Anyway, love you to death.

Simone Collins: I love you too.

Malcolm Collins: Great topic. Great job researching it, Simone.

Simone Collins: All thanks to REU for inspiring this, but I found the UAE marriage wedding thing, and that's so insane.

Malcolm Collins: That is crazy.

Simone Collins: It is crazy. It is crazy. Okay. I already sent you the link for the other one. I'm ending recording.

Malcolm Collins: The story I'm working on is so engaging. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Who, what kind of husband walks up to their wife on a random day and is like, I accidentally wrote a novel

Malcolm Collins: today. Yes. Well, it's, I finally found a very good AI integrated storyteller for like, exploring worlds. Okay. And so I put an IS together, which is like a Harry Potter of message rationality, but Good.

I'll link to it in the comments here [00:38:00] so people can read it. But it takes place in like an zaki world. It's got an overly arrogant protagonist who is just had it with this zaki nonsense and decides to take over the world immediately to, to make things better. And I did it always the ai, like allowing the AI to.

If it presented a challenge to me or like if I didn't know how like a magical system worked I would always have the AI sort of lay out the rules of the thought experiment that I was going to have to try to get through. Mm. So it was written, you could say to an extent Adversarially where there wasn't a lot of like, oh, I want this to happen, or I want things to go in this way.

Which I think makes it roll pretty fun. Mm-hmm.

You know, it's very much like I'm going in and I'm like, okay, we're gonna do things in this new way. We're gonna have this new technology. It's really fun. It's really fun.

Simone Collins: Very methods of rationality. Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: if people like it and they're like, Hey, write more of this I can continue in this world and try to make like a bigger world and even create with our video game like [00:39:00] a thing.

So you can explore worlds like this or do this yourself better. Well, that's

Simone Collins: the point of the. Platform that you and Bruno are building is that while you're starting off with this PO post-apocalyptic or like post demographic collapse, AI world game, anyone's lore or fan universe can be plugged in and be explored with this really rich format.

Right. That's what I'm so excited about.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that's what I'm really excited about too, is it, it creates a system where, you can create these really big, persistent and interesting worlds that, that you can explore. And that's what we're working on with the Reality Fabricator project to basically create this, but more adversarial and better.

But with this one system, I was just really impressed with it. And I ended up, because I finally had a, you know, a little bit of time to myself, like, okay, let's actually play through one of these 'cause I haven't in a long time.

Simone Collins: Yeah, enjoy it while it lasts. You're not gonna have a private moment for. A long time in a bit.

Malcolm Collins: You're going for the cruise together.

Simone Collins: It's gonna be [00:40:00] great.

[(BGM)] When I woke up, I couldn't breathe so hot. I closed my eyes and still touched the stars. I was looking there, a pretty blue sweet country. All along, the

sea went away. Through the crowds, and the light. [(BGM)]

The people around me asked, and I guessed that they were Yeah!

If you need some help, you can be a [00:41:00] volunteer.

Join Malcolm and Simone in a deep dive into the unfolding drama surrounding Kirsch vs Ana Valens . After a week-long vacation, they tackle this complex topic over two episodes, exploring the accusations, evidence, and cultural clashes. From discussing the nature of Vtuber and their avatars to analyzing the controversial actions of Ana Valens and her attempts at cancellation, the episode reveals a tangled web of motivations, including Valens' own experiences with sexuality, consent, and societal rejection. Discover how cultural shifts, personal identities, and internet culture collide in this fascinating, albeit tragic narrative.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. You cannot. I, I cannot tell you how excited I am to be here with you today.

'cause today we are gonna be doing an episode that we were on vacation this last week, and so we weren't able to record new content. Oh yeah. We're around. Our

Simone Collins: kids supposed to be on vacation. All Malcolm can think about is this one thing? Is this, this is all I'm hearing about the whole Cruise

Malcolm Collins: Anna Len's drama.

And so everyone else had covered this already. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, you know what, I'm gonna go into it in more detail. I'm gonna find things that our side is getting wrong. I'm gonna find bits of evidence that our side hasn't uncovered yet. Oh goodness. I am going to get so deep that we're actually gonna do two episodes on this because I.

Find the situation so fascinating from the perspective of, because there's just so much history, recorded history on this journalist, Anna Valand. Okay. Just

Simone Collins: for those who do not know anything about Vtu Burst, because. Malcolm thinks everyone knows what VT YouTubers are. VT tubers are about as well known [00:01:00] as furries.

And actually most people, Malcolm don't know about furries either. Okay, so a vtu, okay, so v YouTubers

Malcolm Collins: are people who use personas, an avatar

Simone Collins: to avatars, just sort of be them. We have an episode with Lisa, an animated anime face instead of our faces, for example. Yes, typically comment on things. They comment on news stories.

A lot of 'em are streamers. And so this is about a v YouTuber. Who was the target? Of a cancellation attempt carried out by a prolific online poster author, journalist who'd happened to execute this targeted attack campaign through Vice News articles. And it is theorized that. Part of why this person valence did this is because they were a not very good vtr who had lost a representation contract and had sour grapes about this vtr being successful.

Oh, hold on.

Malcolm Collins: You're

Simone Collins: confusing a number of things here. Okay?

Malcolm Collins: And you're actually getting something wrong that a lot of other people get wrong that we will get into. So I'm gonna first clear up the first big mistake. Do it. A lot of people believe, and we'll [00:02:00] get into this in a second, you don't need to understand.

What I'm talking about here. But basically this person did an unhinged piece about an agency allude tubber agency called V Allure. And in the piece you'll see that they were really just upset that they weren't hired by V Allure. Mm-hmm. And then Keisha, one of the V tubers, they did an attack on multiple V tubers trying to get their sponsors to drop them.

So trying to get Keisha being the

Simone Collins: main target. Right. They're livelihood peers,

Malcolm Collins: you with the main target, but they also targeted leaflet. And, and, and lethal. It is our oshi. You know, that's who, who we push. That added a term in like fandom community means the main person we push, and I really like her content.

But anyway both of these were right-leaning, but not like far right v tubers. When I say right-leaning and not far right these are the types of people who would say. Trans people are real and deserve to be protected, but there are perverts who pretend to be trans people to get covered. Like, they're, they're at that level.

They have not trusted Trans Rubicon yet to say actually the entire trans thing doesn't really make a lot of sense. But. That's like their level of, so they're not that conservative, right? But certain individuals have [00:03:00] decided this just means they must be destroyed. And so, Keisha's understanding of this is, oh, well I did this, this episode that attacked his piece.

Or her piece, sorry, not to misgender here. We we're gonna, we're gonna use the this is a, she.

Right.

Malcolm Collins: But I don't want, to, you know, they, they put a lot of effort into this whole thing, and I don't see the point in hurting their feelings without reason.

Right. But we'll get into, within these two pieces, why you probably, if you are an actual, like if trans people really exist. You would want more than anyone else for somebody like this to not be able to identify as trans. Mm.

Specifically , if you are somebody who says, , being trans is not a paraphilias., you would not want this person representing you because for this individual, very clearly, because they post a lot of their paraphilias publicly, , feminization and the violation of other people's consent are their two primary paraphilias.

[00:04:00] So for this individual, their trans identity is a paraphilia. And they don't hide this.

Malcolm Collins: Because it's very clear that they do not have, a female mind trapped in a male body.

This is a, yeah, it's, it's you really

Simone Collins: angry about like great replacement theory, racists calling themselves ISTs. We're like, no, no you're not. Yeah. In the same way that we're like, no,

Malcolm Collins: great replacement theory is not tism you, you embarra us. Your average trans person would be like, this is not a trans individual.

Exactly. But, but the problem is with her theory that this came from this via lure article is that article came out in April. The campaign against her. What happened was there was a bunch of stuff on Blue sky and X, and then you have the vice articles that come out that sort of accumulate. It didn't start in April.

Oh, it started in March. Oh. Now here's a little question. What episode might she have posted in March that could have triggered an valence?

Simone Collins: I don't [00:05:00] know.

Malcolm Collins: And this. Is unfortunately what sort of undermines what of valence core arguments about this? So Ava publicly has something called POCD. Which is PDA file OCD disorder.

And if you look at some of her tweets, she will say things like thing, is that a real thing? Getting a lot of interest for sexuality, OCD as a sex ed 1 0 1 stream on additional resources on one of the main topics to discuss POCD. There are so many more to discuss. And it's so is this just, is this

Simone Collins: just obsessive compulsive disorder where the compulsion is being a petto bear?

Well,

Malcolm Collins: so that's the way they frame it. But it's not the way, so the, the basically in the Isha piece where she calls this out, okay, she's like, this is actually worse than like, no contact maps. No maps. Maps are minor attractive people where they tried to normalize these desires. And they said, okay.

Well, I, I just don't contact kids. The, the way that POCD is [00:06:00] different from maps is they believe that one of the treatments to it is exposure therapy. Oh, no, no, no. Looking at. And I'll put the, the letters on screen here. So it's like a form of maps with a justification for engaging in it that this person says that they indulged in to, to help suppress it.

And, and this person talks about age play and everything like that, which we'll get to because it gets really hypocritical in just a second here. Oh, okay. Great. Where, you know, they, or the person, they were whiz, likely the person, they were whiz. And tomorrow what we'll get into is this individual is they did a lot of stuff with very young people multiple times.

There was a famous instance with them where they put a sexual toy in their butt and they played a game called what's it called? Fall Guys, which is a game that is mostly played by kids. Oh. And anytime another character touched them it stimulated them. And what you will soon learn about this individual as we go deeper into them, which is really fascinating, is their core arousal pattern seems to be around a violating other people's [00:07:00] consent.

Their most famous article by their own statements was an article around. Public sex and that we need to be having more of it. And it's not actually a violation of consent. They're like, well, somebody can always just choose to look away if they see you as basically something they said in one part of the article.

Oh. So yes, of course. Yeah. This was taken down on Daily Dot. It took me a long time to get this. But yeah. And this appears to be the core motivator for their current trans identity. They, they, they have a male genitalia. They brag about their male gen genitalia all the time. Didn't, didn't Anna

Simone Collins: also write some kind of like sci-fi.

Novel about how in the future trans women such as herself, we'll get to that.

Malcolm Collins: So actually I can just jump right to that if you're interested to, to, because we're talking

Simone Collins: about

Malcolm Collins: her. So this is something that a lot of people lack of consent get wrong. So a lot of people, this individual did in a few different instances. So people who think that this is just one instance of them doing this, it was not one instance. They tell this [00:08:00] same story using different wording in a few places, but every time before they tell it, they say, well, I'm just doing it to troll the other side.

If you look at us when Trump ran. Won, won the election. We had the, you know, go to the breed, the Mar-a-Lago breeding pits episode, right? Mm-hmm. That was the cover article image, because I thought it was funny. But we don't like go on a detailed and this is what the breeding pits will be like. Okay.

And this is what will be done to women there. If you look at what this, like, we just use it as like a shock joke and like title cards and stuff like that. If you look at what this individual is actually going into, I can read one of the shorter instances in which they did this. 'cause they did it a few times.

Yeah. In the future there are a number of institutions that emerge. There are community run institutions where if you are a trans girl, you can go ahead and sign up for a reservation slot to an all access to one of many breeding facilities where you get to breed the S out of cis girl. P. You can absolutely devastate that s.

Effing destroy it, murder it. You have to cycle the girls [00:09:00] out. We have a breeding saunas, breeding bookstores, breeding movie cedars. This is something we're building. This is the future. This is what turfs don't want. The future that I want is a world where you can walk down the street and don't even have to worry about whether you're going to be able to breed that good pee.

That's the future for all of us, and what you'll see is, is this.

Simone Collins: We're not,

Malcolm Collins: we're go into later thing that's written. A bunch of sexual

Simone Collins: fiction is consent. Like it's great until there's no consent. And why? Why does the one thing Anna Valence has to be so into. Have to involve.

Malcolm Collins: Well, that's what her trans identity is.

It's a way to force people, and we'll see this as we go deeper into her stuff. Even the B tubing thing was about violation of consent. Yeah. It's a way to force other people to be forced into her sexual reality. Right. So

Simone Collins: it's, it's not, it's not autogynephilia. It's not, no, I feel like I was born in the wrong body and that that's, I think's what something really that muddles.

[00:10:00] Trans identity is that you get a mixture of all these things. There are some people who genuinely have body dysmorphia. There are other people who just feel like they're women or like they're men that were born in the wrong body. There are other people who love the idea of having sex with themselves as the different gender.

And then you have people who love removing consent and realize, especially given our culture now, that this is the most effective way to do that every single moment of your day in public and. It, it, it just, it's, it must be so annoying to people in the movement to have to deal with these different groups.

Well,

Malcolm Collins: no, all the real trans people have been kicked outta the trans movement. Like, if trans people are real, like, and again, we, we question this you can look at our trans anorexia video, which I think is the best evidence I've seen that it might not be a real thing.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: But if it is real. You look at the people who would, I would say, seem to be real trans, like maybe Buck Angel or like Chris Jenner, who were like the original people who pushed the movement.

They're all completely cast outta the movement at this point.

Simone Collins: I think Chris Jenner is the. Is like the mom, well, not Christian. Well, who's, who's the one [00:11:00] who, Caitlyn Jenner, Caitlin Jenner. Caitlin Jenner. Chris

Malcolm Collins: Jenner, Calin, Jen

Simone Collins: Woman. They've

Malcolm Collins: all been completely excommunicated from the movement. The only people who are still in the movement are people like this girl who we're talking about here, or like, Alex Va Minn, who we've talked about, who, you know, fantasizes about, you know.

Kinky little girls in restrooms. We, we've done his quotes before, and these are individuals who have not been excommunicated with the movement. Alex v Menon, for example, recently had a Netflix special where he was a comedian. You know, after these comments they don't even make an attempt to pass. But anyway, I, I, I, I wanna get deeper into the specifics of this because I find.

Everything about this person. Fascinating. I find the way they have tried to weaponize vice against anyone who pisses 'em off, which we'll get into in a second. Very fascinating. Mm-hmm. But if you wanna get an example of like, the types of, of of things that this person writes and feels the need to share with other people.

When they got the job at Vice, they. Wrote an article called Uhoh Waypoint hired a giant v tuber. And it's a picture of [00:12:00] their, their, you know, lewd tubing, avatar. Stomp, stomp, stomp. Here comes Anna Vallens, the world's First and only Giants games journalist, v YouTuber. Oh, boom, boom, boom. Well, that's very specific.

Hear specific, massive pulverizing the ground below. I, whoops. Wrong job. Sorry. How embarrassing. Let's start again. You see, she loves forcing. She, she uses the fact that she got a job at this mainstream outlet to force people to engage in her sexual role play

Simone Collins: and also to advertise her career. Yeah, this's the

Malcolm Collins: first thing she thinks to do, and she earns the majority of her money from her sexual roleplay stuff, which she also says.

But it's only about $600 a month though, which we'll get into all of that.

Simone Collins: Tough, tough market out there these days. Yeah, right.

But she's going niche. Another thing I know like Giantism. There's a world for it, but I don't think it's a big one.

Malcolm Collins: It's, it's apparently not a big one, but there's even a smaller world for trans giants.

Yeah. She's playing on hard mode here.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So I wanna get into the, the Via Lure article. So Via Lure [00:13:00] was a VT tubing agency for Lew Tubers. Now, Anna Vains does not mention this. At the beginning of her, are you thinking there would be some disclosure trigger warning? I am a L YouTuber who applied to this agency and they didn't get back to me.

We know she applied to this agency because some great autistic internet detectives did found a post where after they did their first announcement she cheered herself on about applying for them. But I will note here, before we go further with any of this, she's gonna be like, oh, well, you know, POCD is about being worried about being into underage people.

It's like, well then. Why did you get mad at them? Why did all of this start when they published this and, and keep in mind, Kirsha was hounded by one Tweeter who, who I think even still is doing over a hundred tweets a day about this. It, and we don't know that this tweeter isn't valence as far as I know, right.

It, it seems like she might be, because we will get into instances in which valence says something on her Twitter account and then references it in a Vice article with her, like actual Twitter account was like, no upvote.

Simone Collins: Well then also have there not been. Like screenshotted [00:14:00] comments, but the, the comments were posted one second ago making it almost obvious that it was a stock puppet account, was,

Malcolm Collins: Saying somebody threatened my life.

And the comment was one second ago on Reddit, and it's like, okay, how did the vice editing team let this get through? Well, that, I think that's one of the mainstream criticisms

Simone Collins: of Anna Valence is that in her hit piece of KIS and Leo Lit there, there's a lot of, non non-con confirmed, non-primary source, secondhand anonymous Reddit references?

No, not just non-con confirmed.

Malcolm Collins: She associates with them. In the, in the Kersha instance, she associates with Kersha stuff that a stalker who hated Kersha was saying about her. Oh, good

Simone Collins: lord.

Malcolm Collins: And, and like very obvious stalker who was always trying to attack Kirsha. Then. She like, imagine like giving a microphone to somebody's stalker, right?

Like what a vile person. And then with Leaflet, she got mad at her for a title card that, that leaflet had, doesn't make her own. YouTube, just so people know she mentioned this on our channel. Somebody else makes [00:15:00] her YouTube for her. They had made a title card where she's covering another video where there is a, a black person being led around on a chain by a white person. And the point she was making in the video is, aren't our prison system's terrible? We need to talk about this. It's basically like slavery in a way.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And that, that was the point she was making. But they had a smiling version of her avatar in one of the ab test, dear dears of the title card.

So not even on all

Simone Collins: of the title cards, just one which probably does better click through, happens to us

Malcolm Collins: all the time. It's people all the time. Take title cards of us like the hope Not Hate article on us. Used a bunch of title cards. Completely that where the episode in Yeah. Like should women be allowed to vote question mark?

Yeah. Yeah. Where the point is yes, they should. Or the episode of secret Jewish Technology for fighting the urban monoculture that had like an ominous looking like, like Star of David. And they're like, look, they must say the whole episode about allowed are women shouldn't, no

Simone Collins: women and men should only be allowed to vote if they're contributing.

And, and that contributor to society, which, sure, go

Malcolm Collins: ahead. Yep. But anyway, I wanna get into this VT tubing piece because I wanna read some quotes from it so you can see. [00:16:00] How unhinged it is. So she gets angry that she doesn't get hired by them, is, is what we learned in the piece. And then she goes on a stream where a number of their talent are talking.

And so then she writes about this incident where she thinks she's gonna get them with a got you moment. And she believes this at the gotchu moment during the stream, talent shi be kabam stressed. V Lure will accept transgender talent as long as they quote. Go by female pronouns. Quote, quote, live life as a woman, quote and quote.

Sound like a woman in quote, oh, the gen team. So we messed up as the issue was discussed, but, and, and now, dot, dot, dot here. What does it mean to quote unquote sound like a woman? Is Villa Lore willing to accept trans women like myself? Even though I have a feminine voice, I'm often clocked as trans during stream and in as MR comments.

Would I lack the right credentials to quote unquote sound like a woman? In other words, do they want trans talent or do they want trans women who sound specifically like cis women? [00:17:00] They want trans talent that trying CIS women could, if necessary, hide their gender identity. B and Lure never clarified these during the stream.

Essentially putting trans talent right back in square one. How does Villa Lore feel about trans women? What that is the most. This is a company that makes money by men who are horny for the people who work at the company. Okay? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They're like, if you sound like a man or like a trans not gonna work woman in your terms, it's not, you're not, guys aren't gonna like that. Yeah. They're not gonna want that. You're not gonna be able to get guys off. Right. And this is true, this, in the second post we're gonna do on this person they do a long post about why nobody wants to date them. And then they go into the statistics showing that basically nobody wants to date trans women.

And that's just like a statistical fact. So this is a company trying to sell erotic material and she's saying that people should be. Forced to consume the erotic material that she creates, even if it's not what turns them on, that companies should be forced to distribute her [00:18:00] erotic content to an audience that doesn't want it, even though it doesn't turn them on because again.

Her core kink is the violation of other people's consent. And I would note I don't actually have a problem with that as a kid. If you are engaging with this, speak yourself within a fictional context within like, let's say AI chat. Okay. Or was in stories Yeah. Or was in books that you're reading or was in young adult fiction.

Okay. Which a lot of it does. Totally fair. You look at 50 Shades of Gray yeah. You know, that's fine, that's great. More power to you. But if you engage with it well, or consensual

Simone Collins: non-consent as we discussed with, you know, aila at one point, so Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah. Like consensual non-consent stuff.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: That's all fine, but what this person is doing is actively violating other people's consent to get off.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: when

Simone Collins: they happen, it's non-consensual, non-consent.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Non-consensual, non-contentious. What this person is into, especially public, non-consensual, non-consent, no, like public sex or bringing people in at the beginning of a vice article into their fetish [00:19:00] or you know, as you can see here, forcing an agency to accept them.

I can't believe that they wrote this in like a public article, but anyway. They then, you know, end the article by saying, so let me get this straight. Erotic content of young girls is fine because she goes on this big complaint that some of their characters look like an anime style that looks underage and sometimes is explicitly underage.

I. But lesbian content goes too far. What, that's particularly strange when you consider the popularity of F four F. So she gets really mad 'cause she only wants to create, and if you even look at her own website, she will not create content for men. She has this fantasy that there are cis women consuming her content and we'll go into like this being a fantasy 'cause she points out in another article that will read on another day that no cis women wants to date her.

But that online, cis women are plenty into her. And I'm like, sweetheart, those are not cis women. Though there're women pretending to be cis women because as we know from the statistics, cis women basically almost never are into trans women when they're lesbians or anything else. But anyway, she wants to create this category of content and it's [00:20:00] like, if there was a real market for this, why can't you just do it yourself and create this big audience?

But anyway, simply put. The genre is not only enjoyed by queer women, but straight men as well. Men commonly listen to F four V content for the same woman Reason that men enjoy watching Real Life Lesbian Port because it's about two women having sex.

So I would note here we go into this extensively in our book, the Pragmatist Guide to Sexuality. But this is not why, , women on Women content is so popular among male audiences. The reason it's so popular among male audiences is that average cis hetero men have a very strong disgust reaction to other men.

, And some of them have such a strong, disgusted reaction to seeing other men for like obvious evolutionary reasons.

Any man who is okay with or still turned on by a group of other men sleeping with his partner is going to have significantly fewer surviving offspring than a man who isn't. well as women don't need this disgust reaction to other women. A woman. [00:21:00] Who is okay with other women sleeping with their partners, especially when you consider it certain parts of human history.

For every one male that had a surviving offspring, 17 females did, suggesting that females were hoarded by high value men, , actually discussed towards other women, and sleeping with your partner would cause fewer surviving offspring in a evolutionary context. But anyway, the point here being is many men have a very strong disgust reaction to other men within their erotic content.

, This is also why. Very valent seems to have a huge problem with this, not understanding this why people consume futa. The reason why people consume this is because it is a way for an individual who doesn't want to see any males in their pornography have PIV sex still within that pornography.

You as a trans woman are not futa, you would literally be the most antithesis thing that somebody who is into that [00:22:00] category of porn would want because

From the perspective of the.

Evolutionary deep culture doesn't care about modern cultural norms. Brain.

you are a man that is dressed up like a woman,

I note this because Vallen is constantly pointing out the popularity of Fuda pornography as a, . Evidence that there is a big audience out there for trans creators like hers, especially ones that haven't had bottom surgery. , When this is not the case. In their pragmatist guide to sexuality, we did a survey of individuals who said they liked Putah, and then asked how many of that group said that they were also into pornography that featured trans individuals, and the result was near 0%.

Malcolm Collins: this is dely the case when it comes to fetish material like bondage.

Theism, ISTs and Vore where the premise is more important than the gender of the performers. And I'm like, that's really effing specific. That wouldn't happen to be the type of content that you produce and are mad they won't [00:23:00] hire you for. It's like, oh yes, because we've already gone over. It is, but I'd wanna point out the really ironic thing about her attacking this company.

For their underage appearing models. Okay. Which is to say this person has repeatedly talked about how they engage in and promote age play. This is play where one of the partners pretends to be underage. Okay. Now, when companies have these YouTube avatar things, it is always. An above age woman playing it.

None of these companies have underage girls playing these models. It is literally the exact same thing that Anna Vallens is promoting and doing herself. And, and keep in mind, this isn't like me saying this, even her followers are arguing this. So if you look at quotes from her followers who support her, they're like, like, okay, maybe, arping age play squeaks some. So it's not just regular, [00:24:00] it's arping removal of consent, age play that she really liked. Oh no. But surely this can't be worse than actually being an effing Nazi. Right. Which is exactly what Kirsha and her supporters are. Keep in mind, Kirsha is is mid sauce like she is. She is not that conservative.

She's not as conservative as us. And people say we're liberals all the time. Besides, I've been on X long enough to remember who Anna Valence is and honestly, who the hell cares? A Nazi and an openly proud one is 1 million times worse than a trans woman who's into age play. I said, what? I said by the way, here, what I'm gonna put on screen, which I find really fascinating, is so in her article on Vice, so you can tell, basically she's just using Vice to push her Twitter agenda.

Was out doing any real fact checking, doing all the normal stuff you would see from a Twitter or Blue Sky activist, like faking screenshots, like the one where she got the threat one second before she screenshotted it. Where here she says in a tweet via lure, says straight up no to f. Four F content as the agency says, it cannot [00:25:00] ensure success if it creates content for queer women.

Straight content is the vision of the company because of an established method will always be F four M content, and I can't see that changing at this point in time. One, why is that a problem? But two, what she has shared here was in her article is a link to her own blue Sky account. Okay, and this is whatever this is called on Blue Sky only has 77 likes in 12 re reposts.

This she thought was relevant to put in an article and a link from an article in a mainstream news source. I. This is what Vice has become, is a platform for individuals like this. Now, as I was gonna say earlier she's since removed her blue sky. She's since removed her Twitter. She's since likely been removed from the writing team of Vice because they removed these two articles from her Daily dot only after

Simone Collins: Vice published an article defending her.

Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: they did. So there were three articles in this series trying to get these people canceled, trying to get their sponsors to drop them. She was trying to. Produce active harm [00:26:00] in the same way that cancel culture usually did. And basically she found that cancel culture doesn't work anymore. Not only did it not work when she was attempting to do it on Twitter, although she did get they did get one of her sponsors to drop her this game called Crime City.

Whatever. I don't care. She's likely more popular now. This really centered kirsha which I really appreciate happened. You know, she's more famous now than she's ever been. We've invited her to come on our show. She said she's gotten a lot of ass recently. She, so it may take a while if anyone is fans of hers, be like, Hey, you should go on base Camp.

You should talk to Malcolm and Simone. Because I'd love to help Signal boost her. After all this, because I think that that needs to be the community's reaction when they see somebody try to get canceled. Everybody needs to move around them. What I was really surprised about is kirsha through a legal threat, was able to get all these articles taken down.

And Im like, you know, like we've had, like, as I've mentioned, like seven articles in the last month about us on the New York Times, well, I like B, c articles, coverage, really? Jezebel. I've never thought of trying to have one taken down. Like, I was like, oh, these just draw more attention to us. Right? Like, I didn't even realize having a A A A com, a completely fake article taken down and the guardian.

Writes articles that are [00:27:00] as unhinged about us as these articles are from, from Vice about her?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I'd also, we don't like legal stuff. Mm-hmm. We really don't like legal stuff.

Malcolm Collins: So another thing about this individual that hasn't been covered a lot is if you go to her substack, you get to paint her a picture of who she is and what she's dealing with.

And what you learn is this is an individual who, by the success of the new right, by the success of the culture shift has had her life systemically destroyed.

She was a woke games journalist who focus on promoting, moving the Overton window around sexuality, around things like the sexualizing of minors around things like you know, whi her like age play content, whi her you know, around thi and I love it.

The, I don't actually care, like the whole lolly thing, whatever. Like, what? I'm not gonna go there. I don't have an opinion on that. But what I will say and I do have an opinion on is her attacking another group over this while promoting the same thing. Like I am against Hypocrites. Okay. I. And I can be like, oh, Malcolm, you [00:28:00] want, I mean, it's entirely fictional content.

And we know that when you ban something like pornography, the amount of child assaults sa assaults goes up by around 50%. We saw this in the Czech Republican who was banned. It's, it's been seen in many other countries. I can only imagine. I. Like, I know it's something that you're not allowed to study, ALA got absolutely de fenestrated over this.

But it likely very unfairly, very unfairly, very unfairly lower the, so this is one of these things where, I dunno if, if it's completely fictionalized content

If I was to promote a law in this domain,, it would 100% be focused on what reduces the amount of harm to children. , And if it was shown as I think the evidence leans towards right now is having this content available. Lowers the number of children who have to go through their lives having experienced this.

Then I will trade. All the content in the world, however distasteful it may be. So one, just one child doesn't have to experience this, but we're likely looking at [00:29:00] many children per year talking around. , If you look at the statistics, probably banning this would lead to hundreds more children per year having to experience this.

And I just can't justify that over what is ultimately, , an aesthetic play.

I mean, whether you're looking at essay offenders in prison often started consuming porn at a later age, or you look at, as we mentioned before, when porn bans have been removed in countries, the amount of essay that happens drops dramatically. And we're talking like 50%, like, not like small dramatically.

Or you can look at Wiz every. , Percent, I think it was every percent increase in internet access within the United States. SAS dropped by around 7%. , Just across the board, you see this.

And you can go to our other videos where we go deeper into the effects of banning, , various types of pornography. I am not saying I like that this content exists, , but what I'm saying is my end goal is reducing harm to children.

It is not looking like the most conservative guy in the room.

Malcolm Collins: I dunno if, if it's completely fictionalized content

Simone Collins: yeah. [00:30:00] Except that's not what Anna Valence was universally doing. Yes. Some of it was fantasy, but some of it was putting. Yeah. Like, but her thing thing was like the video

Malcolm Collins: game where she was doing that with actual kids.

Yeah. That,

Simone Collins: that's, that that crosses line, like if you are doing this in a 100% synthetic environment, the problem is that she almost is, is like the biggest case, arguing that, you know, any indulgence in this is not okay because. She clearly wasn't able to keep it purely fictional. And that is a problem.

So I don't know.

Malcolm Collins: Well, because she had these psychological licensing mechanisms like POCD that gave her the ability to engage in this stuff. Yeah, that's,

Simone Collins: that's

Malcolm Collins: b******t. Yeah. No, no. I know. It's, it's, it's b******t. But what I'm saying is there's just like one by the way, people are like, oh, well this is a real thing.

No, it's not a real thing. Like one guy made this up and it's published a bunch of articles on it in like 2015. This, this, this does not appear, it appears to be a license for authorizing exposure therapy for something that, that normally you would not promote. But anyway, let's, [00:31:00] let's look at her actual quotes here.

Okay? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Well, and let's be clear, because a lot of people's obsesses, obsessions and compulsions with, with traditional OCD or like main non-autistic OCD or like, I'm really afraid of hurting someone. I'm really afraid of like, no, the, their exposure isn't. Okay, well now let's go hurt people. You know?

Yeah. Just that's not,

Malcolm Collins: no, that's not what you, but anyway, so she says, I've been looking for work in media for the past couple weeks now, particularly games journalism and surprise. Surprise has been a complete waste of my effing time. I. Take a look at the positions available on video games, journalist jobs site.

As of this, article six are posted. Four of them are unpaid Of the two positions that offer compensation, both are freelance and one of them is only offering three to five pounds per SEO article, three to five pounds per article. That's nowhere near a living wage for the work involved in researching fact checking.

Well, fortunately for you, you don't do that. And writing a search engine optimized work of games journalism, but hey, if you're de [00:32:00] that desperate, go get it. Five pounds to write a thousand words about the best Tokyo GUL characters. What is steal? In short, if you work in games journalism and are out of a job right now, you are FD also, if you currently.

Have a miserable job in games journalism, but enjoy eating food. You are effed. And then do, do, do. I'm going to let you know a secret in the media industry. In 10 years, I have written many cover letters and many resumes for full-time jobs. I've never heard back from any of them, not once.

Despite being a prolific writer, reporter, and even published author, no one has asked me for a chat for a call. No interest from Jezebel, none from motherboard, gizmodo ha a rejection email. What makes. More since blowing a whole day, preparing a resume that will never land me an interview or recording audio where I pretend to be a giant woman that eats people.

It helps day me. Made a couple hundred dollars this month.

Simone Collins: No, doesn't take you a whole day to prepare a resume.

Malcolm Collins: I, but like, I understand where she's coming from, right? Like, okay, at least I can get a couple [00:33:00] hundred dollars a month if I do that. Well, this is

Simone Collins: why so many women are on OnlyFans,

Malcolm Collins: clearly.

Right? I mean, obviously it's, it's not a long-term solution for most people who engage in it, which is why people, you know. Don't, don't promote this. But I, I, this I think gives an idea of like where this girl's mental space is.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

This is an individual who bought in to the opposing side of this civilizational conflict that we have been having, the side that was dedicated to cultural imperialism and riping out. Any cultural differences, any differences in the way people see gender roles? Any differences in the way people see sexual taboos or sexual norms, or?

Or what marriage means to them or the future of human civilization. I mean, they, they were unmitigated the bad guys in this civilizational battle, but this person bought into it a hundred percent. , And I guarantee you they thought they were a good person when they were doing it. And now not only are they completely, you know, [00:34:00] unemployable living off of the food scraps of society, but they will likely for the rest of their lives, , be looked at.

, With a degree of derision, as the pendulum continues to swing more and more against the abuses of the trans movement, I could not imagine a fate worse than living in this person's shoes.

But I paid $5,000 to be a woman. This would mean I, I'm not really a woman, it's, I'm just a, I, I'm just a guy with a mutilated penis, basically.

Yes. Oh boy. Do I feel like a jackass? I.

Simone Collins: She's struggling to find work, so she decides to do basically online sex work and complains about it, says she can't get a job, but still manages to become a writer advice.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. What I was, one, one of the things I was gonna talk about was this, is she actually did at one point land a job not just as a, as a [00:35:00] journalist, but managing an entire journal team after one of the companies she was worked at was acquired by another company. She quit within a month, said the workload was too high, and then set up a GoFundMe.

Oh.

Simone Collins: Oh. It's not

Malcolm Collins: that she's never gotten the shots in life. Okay. It's that she has thrown the shots away.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So I will note here that, her career choice around, again, not just J Games journalism, but if you look at her games journalism, it's all about trying to move the Everton window on sexual deviancy in ways that is likely psychologically harmful to people.

As we'll get into in the next video on her, where we'll go over the mental damage she's done to her herself, and we will see a picture of a completely destroyed individual. Like we saw with this game journalism stuff, but the industry that they have touched, they also burned down games. Journalism didn't burn down because of the right, it burned down because of writers like her who cared about pushing their message over the truth.

You know, I know if I want to hear the truth, I go to someone like Kirsha. I go to somebody like side Scrollers. I do not go to somebody. Like one of [00:36:00] her articles because you know, she's never worked in the games industry. If you go to Leaflet, leaflet used to work for Riot Games, you know, she designed Luxe and Pantheon, right?

Like she is an OG gamer. She works at like five major gaming companies and now does in part games journalism. And she's interested in a. N fairly neutral, slightly right-leaning version of the truth. This individual is not, this individual is interested in forcing other people, as you could see throughout the Al Lure article, to do what she wants which is, you know, oh, accept this, accept this, accept this.

Right? And so if you look at this background of hers, she's finding it hurts her even more than other people in the games industry. So she writes. It is strange because this was not always the case once. My experience as a sex worker was a vital career asset back when I was a reporter specializing in online censorship, which is funny that now her main job is trying to promote online censorship, sex workers' rights and sex tech.

Being a sex worker was a career benefit. It was a sign that I knew what I was talking about. I offered lived experience, intuition [00:37:00] and digital gonzo journalist vibe that made me trustworthy in and out of the sex working community. It's one reason why, again, I was able to write a book, invited to talk at universities and so on.

Keep in mind, I don't know if her book ever really sold. It was about the early sexual history of Tumblr, but it actually looks like it could be interesting from somebody who was rotted by exposure to that we can see, oh, let's prevent this from happening again. Now writing about adult content, sex work, and online sexuality, as seen as taboo as Google may ding a domain covering these topics.

So, my experience as a sex worker is an additional professional liability, at least in the eyes of your average civilian. Why risk bringing on a sex worker? What kind of baggage does it bring on for a long-term future as an adult content creator? But I also need additional income to support my career. A rookie l tubing.

Lude tubing only pays a couple hundred a month, hence the job search. So this is someone who destroyed their career prospects by engaging in what was normalized was in her [00:38:00] communities. And if you look at even her life, she has completely created a fictional persona that she has to play to be happy.

Somewhere along the way, I stopped playing shooters and started wearing leather. I was having sex I didn't want and doing sex I wasn't into, I was reading books that were certifiably mid because other people said they were based. I was hiding my interest in Nerd S because it wasn't cool to be at home. Real queers touch grass, lathered, lube and effed. So basically this is the type of person who gets so social pressured by these communities that even she sees the damage these communities were doing to her, that she was completely making up who she was, even if all she was doing was hedonism, maxing.

She then says, one day I woke up and realized that I wasn't being honest with myself. I was trying to look punky, because that's what you did when you were a D in Boston. I was trying to hang out in bars, events, and activist spaces that were cool, hip, sexy, forcing myself to go to parties. I didn't enjoy listen to poetry.

I didn't like jerk off writers. I hated to read wear clothes I didn't feel comfortable in. [00:39:00] And for what? What good came of it? Which is really sad to see this, this life that she had constructed. She thought if she always searched for validation, if she always chased the, the dragon of progressivism, the most victimized person in the room, the most ET person in the room, the most degenerate person in the room, that she would achieve affirmation and be satisfied with her life and her life.

If you read her substack, is just a constant. Okay. I think I finally found what'll make me happy and then a few months later, okay, that didn't make me happy. Okay. I think I finally found what'll make me happy. And if you contrast her life. We say our life where we literally live, you know, the end scene in grandma and grandpa turned young again, or the end scene in, in, in Gladiator.

You know, I've got these fields of weed in front of my house. I've got my kids, I've got my wife, you

Simone Collins: know, without everyone being

Malcolm Collins: dead. Yes.

[00:40:00]

But instead of sacrificing and working to build a meaningful career that helped people to build a family, to have kids to work, to make the next generation better than the last, this person in an endless search for self validation and pleasure basically fell to Thea Bytes.

Doors to the pleasures of heaven nor hell. I didn't care, which I thought I'd gone to the limits I hadn't. The center bytes gave me an experience beyond the limits pain and pleasure.

Indivisible. We weren't against you feeling pleasure. We weren't against you being validated. We were trying to protect you from the inevitable

of incessant and without restraint. Indulgence.

These days, the fight often feels like progressives yelling at us. Like, why don't you want CINA bytes hanging around our schools and [00:41:00] recruiting children like everyone should be okay with Cina Bytes. Cina bytes are the best.

Malcolm Collins: But it's like, why do we promote. All the things we promote because it helps people because at the end of the day, while it may hurt you in the moment to say, Hey, don't indulge in that stuff, don't indulge in that stuff publicly.

We've always said like, what turns you on is what turns you on. You don't have a control of that, but don't indulge in it publicly because one, it. Often ends up hurting other people. It often ends up violating other people's consent. And eventually it will come back to you. It will come back and damage you.

And in addition to that, because we were right about all of that, we say don't engage in these lifestyles. Yes, I understand that in the moment. This is the way you wanna see yourself. This is what you think. But as we know from you know, the study gender dis discontentedness and gender non-content w.

Used in 2023 of 13 year olds who identify with the opposite gender by the time they're 23 over nine in 10, identify with their birth gender. This is a phase. This is, this is what the data tells us now. And so when other people affirm this in you, even though it, it, it makes you feel better in the moment, it [00:42:00] ends up causing more suffering than getting married while you're young.

Starting a family and, and, and doing the hard thing, you know, going in and putting in the work, going in and doing the hustle and, and, and doing the unglamorous job that makes your family the money it needs to make. And I think that a lot of people can see that what we're pushing and they're like, yeah, but this hurts in the short term.

But it helps people in the long term.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And, and then, and I think that that's what a lot of the new right is about. It's like what actually works, what actually helps people. We don't wanna enforce some outdated gender storm stereotype. We don't wanna outdate, enforce outdated sexual norms or morality or taboos.

Where we enforce those things is because systems that you thought were outdated. It turns out, if you look at this all as a sober mind, seem to have had some benefit to the people who pursue them. And we say this even in ways that hurt, you know, some of our followers, you know, I could say something like, if you're a girl and you're not married by the age of 25, you need to be panicking.

It's going to be very, very hard to secure a partner. And this hurts a lot of the [00:43:00] women who watch this, who are single, they're like, it's really hard to find a guy after 25. And I'm like, yeah, I'm trying to help the version of you that's still young. And I know it hurts for me to say this, that it's, it becomes almost impossible because guys will play you.

They see your desperation and they will use that. To get you to stay with them, and then they trade you out for somebody younger in a few years. And, and it's horrifying that this happens, but they can get away with it because the dynamics are so in their favor. When you hit that 30 dating market which is, I'll see this with women, it'll be like, well, I'm a nine out 10.

It's like, well, you're a nine out of 10 for a 30-year-old. But the problem is that 30-year-old guys for nine out of tens can date 25 year olds. And, and that's the problem. That's, that's the, and, and when they turn 40, it's the same, right? So the whole system is rigged against you. It hurts to say this, but it helps society in aggregate to normalize this understanding.

Now if you wanna go into other things that, that, oh, sorry. I had also note here, you know, when we talk [00:44:00] about like the. Underage content, a lot of this underage content or I wanted to say the phenotypically young content, a lot of this phenotypically young content that people are complaining about.

There were the recent instance in which somebody did a video of like an anime girl who had this sweet guy and she was in a, a wheelchair, and they're like, this is what guys actually want.

商売。ほんまにしょっぱいで。なんでこんなしょっぱいんや。そりゃよかったな。

ほら、暴れるな。 ね。

ね。

Malcolm Collins: and it was just like helping a girl and all these progressives like attack them. These, and they were like, oh, how can you wanna help a girl in a wheelchair?

Like that's like a fetish, or This girl looks underage. And it's like, no, that's a normal way people are drawn in anime. No guys really do want women who are dependent on the, and that they can help in some, like literally the only way

Simone Collins: age is drawn in anime is, is if they add literal like wrinkles.

And [00:45:00] typically people don't have wrinkles until they're 50 years, 55 years or older. So like, how are you gonna show an anime that a woman. Is an adult. Like you can't, unless you, you make her look chibi. That's how you like, it's like clearly a child, I guess. Yeah. But yeah,

Malcolm Collins: just to make that. But anyway to, to quote from her again here, I found this really interesting 'cause she's talking about a video game here.

Annette's consent is best dubiously obtained throughout the game, but there's an implicit joy that she takes in the submission pass as if Annette surrenders to her disposition. Unlike her twin sister Annabel, she never truly chose to use the perverted app, demon dash, so she can see herself as a victim robbed of her innocence.

Barb's desire are being forced onto her if they're secretly her own. So in dominance, Annette is freed to be a pervert. It's as if Annette is saying. I don't really wanna worship at Barb's feet or I don't really wanna be spanked. Mommy is making me do it. So again, you can see again throughout her work is this talk of violation of consent.

If you look [00:46:00] at writing that she's done, so if I just take a quick, I'm not gonna read like the big fiction she's done that other people have done, like here, she read on her stream you could see here. And what was really sad is you saw in this one article, she's like, oh there's this, you know, the, her whole takeaway from society doesn't like me anymore.

All of these friend groups, I was trying to endear myself. Don't like me anymore. Cis women won't date me anymore. I'm gonna go online to EcoSport. Which is this, this war community, because cis women still date me there. And I'm like, bro, there there are not many cis women in that community. But anyway, if you look at like the things she's writing that people are engaging with because I think understanding this individual sexuality is so fascinating to me that could lead them to , this life of, of this dark place.

Just like. Pure. She, she reminds me of Roger and Family Guy when he dies and like his life flashes before his eyes. And not, not only is he in drag, but, but, it's then just, he makes the most evil choice at literally every stage of his life. Oh goodness. And that's this individual

Anybody [00:47:00] want a piece of this against my will? I won't accuse anyone..

I did it perfectly.

Malcolm Collins: she writes, it's dire, it's urgent.

You must acquire it. A feminization spell. You're eager to transform your body. And you've heard rumors of feminizing magic, capable of shaping your entire form into exactly what you want., Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you, you again see like. This is the type of stuff she's into. But what you see here, what's very interesting is people will say, well, like being trans isn't a fetish for me. What, what is this sin? Why is she writing this? If this isn't a fetish, this is something that is meant to be masturbated to, and it's about feminizing yourself.

[00:48:00] Okay? You can say, this isn't a fetish, but for this individual it clearly is. If you look at the audio that they have they, because they say they're an asmr, like L YouTuber. You can buy. F four a breed, your goddess w***e. T four F. Hi. I promise I'm not the young girl with a kink.

T four, TF one way or another. I'm sucking your girl. D Magical girl. T four T, T four T, T four. I'm not gonna read all that stuff. Fem by a devilish librarian, fem dom, a succubus corners you, strips you and s your pretty thighs. So again, you can see the removing consent from people is consistent throughout these this stream delivery girl returns for oral during the autumn sale.

A so again, here you see a bunch of this an interview with a mind controlling Succubus and her magic girl. This

Simone Collins: does sound fairly typical for Gone Wild Audio to, to be fair. No, no,

Malcolm Collins: no. I am saying to [00:49:00] be fair, but the point I'm making with this stuff is you know, your girlfriend is secretly a plant monster girl and she wants to gem anize your pretty body

Simone Collins: correction gone.

Wild audio niche. Like most of it's like no, no, no, no. The girl next door thinks you're hot. So this is not normal. It's not the most popular content.

Malcolm Collins: The point I'm making is that for this individual, and they've written in their articles that like anyone who identifies as a woman can be a woman.

They, they wrote that in the, in the article. They're not like, oh, you need to look like a woman. Oh, you need to act like a woman. This is very much this violation of a consent form of transness where you don't need to pass. You don't need to do anything like that. Everyone just needs to see me the way I see myself, even if it's against their religion, especially when I can force their kids to do it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

But what you can see, and the point I'm making by reading through these is feminization. Is a kink of theirs and violation of consent is a kink of theirs. Hmm. And it's not just like a kink, it's like the core kink of theirs. It's the point. It's the point with that being the case to say that this is [00:50:00] anything other than I.

It, bringing other people into their fetish is just a lie. Right? And this is why I said like, I think trans people would not want an individual like this within their communities. If, if, if there is a form of transness where genuinely no kink is a part of this is just gender dysphoria. Because for this individual, they kink is very much the core driving factor of it.

If you, if you go further you, you'll see stuff. Well, I don't, you don't wanna read all of her. I, I, I downloaded so many of this because I thought that it was, it was so interesting to, to go into like, all of these kinks that she had. Well,

Simone Collins: if there's one thing in a villain is 100%. It is prolific. So,

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

And it's been very interesting and fun to, to, for me to learn about, because it's like. Through a mirror darkly, like what happens if. You indulge in this path. Mm-hmm. Where do you end up when you listen to the the lies of the urban monocultural virus when you buy them? A hundred [00:51:00] percent. Because Anna, if you read her like Substack, it's actually like decent writing when it's stuff that she cares about and she's not just trying to attack people.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: She could have been a decent writer. Right. But this is an individual who allowed the brain rot to creep so deep and desperately. Into her mind, no, that she is now unable to find happiness and basically just lives a life of imp poverty, of screaming at her computer. And it's a life that she knows will only get worse from this point forwards as society increasingly is like, okay, this form of degeneracy, that you have a huge public record tied to your real name or your trans name.

You know, how do you get a job with that going forward? How do you get a job when so many people hate you for trying to ruin the lives of multiple innocent people? And, and she believed that these individuals were gonna shoot. She believed that if they did anything that disaffirm her, if they called her out for her PDA file stuff that that meant that they were trying to eradicate her because in her mind, anything that is not affirming.

Is genocide. [00:52:00] Anything that doesn't say, well, you can be whatever you want and indulge in, in whatever you want, is genocide. And that's how she got to the belief that Kyia is genocidal because kyia does not agree with this. Individual's take on trans. I see. Which is, is, is mortifying to me because at the end of the day, our beliefs around gender, gender norms and sexuality are cultural.

Pre predominantly, that's, that's what drives them. You can, you can say, okay, well what's the scientific answer? Unfortunately, the scientific answer doesn't promote trans right now, as we pointed out in a number of our episodes on this. So if you're saying, okay, well then at least people should have the cultural right to do this.

It's like, okay, you should have the cultural right to do this. That's why I'm gendering you correctly. Right? But you shouldn't have the cultural right. To label someone as genocidal because they have a different cultural perspective of gender than you. Which, you know, you're gonna find in Africa,

Speaker 13: No. No. It'll look like to if you want to become a lady, but your man, you have something wrong in your Something wrong. Something wrong in your family.

Speaker 12: Something wrong in you.

Malcolm Collins: which you're gonna [00:53:00] find in Islamic culture, Greece, which you're gonna find in, in Buddhist, you know, conservative Buddhist environments, which you're gonna find pretty much anywhere you go in the world.

They're gonna be like, yeah, this isn't. A, a valid thing.

Even the culture where they're like, oh, because we've talked about this before. They're like, oh, you see transness in different cultures, like Two-Spirit and like this thing in Indonesia, this thing in India. And we're like, no, you don't. Actually. In those cases, it's either young boys who are castrated for sex work, which we consider more like a castrato or twine, gay men.

Which, which, you know, you, in our culture, we don't say what makes you trans is that you appear to be an effeminate man who likes sex with men. Like that's a tweet. This, this appears to be completely unique to our culture. That was the thing that really changed my perspective on trans. I realized that that's when I was like, oh, this is completely unique to our culture.

And it leads to a 50% or around 50% unloving attempted rate. Like clearly that's a toxic thing. Why is it that the more accepting our society has gotten of trans individuals, the higher the trans unloving rate has gotten? Mm-hmm. How, why is it that when you go [00:54:00] within cultures the more accepting a culture is of transness, the higher the unliving rate is of, of trans individuals within that culture?

It'll only make sense. If you, if you're like, okay, well, whatever the way the quote unquote accepting of trans cultures are, treating gender dysphoria or whatever this individual has that leads to more harm. And I don't want autistic kids to die. Like I, in the same way that like an adult woman who is like 30 and I'm like, look, it's gonna be nearly impossible for 30-year-old women to secure a partner within our existing social structure right now.

That hurts them. Right? But it helps the younger version of them. If I was able to get this message to them earlier, and it's the same with someone like Anna Valence, if I had gotten to her at the right time in her life, she might be happily married with kids at a gainful job, contributing to society and, and, and satisfied every time she goes home and, and you know, her, four little kids jump in her arms.

You know, that could be where she is. She could be living the [00:55:00] gladiator life. But she's not, and I'm trying to help people like her not hurt people like her.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or just, you know, living single or whatever and just putting her focus and research into other things that don't hurt herself and other people so much.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If, if she had focused on not indulging in all this de degeneracy publicly and just becoming a good writer

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: That, that focused on not slandering people or labeling people, not trying to destroy people's careers, not riding every woke wave, she even admits. What I was trying to find, I remember now was there's a, a, a quote from her where she's like, oh yeah I don't actually want to write articles on Gamergate.

This is early in Gamergate. So you can see this is an individual who likely would've been open to our perspective had it reached her early enough. She's like, I only do it because it pays better and more people read it. You know, so. She caved to all of this stuff early on and in that article she makes fun of Mother Jones.

She makes fun [00:56:00] of other places where she has worked and have paid her to work. Mm-hmm. Because she's like, oh, they're terrible outlets, but they pay. You know, this is an individual who, who already didn't like the life she was living, but was doing it rather than doing the hard thing, which is perfecting her skills outside of the baby stuff.

And that's really sad. I mean, she could do what we do. If you look at our videos, what we do is we do the catchy title cards, which are sort of Beatty. And then in the episode we try to dig into like the actual content right, of, of, of what's happening. Do a deep dive, get you guys information you're not getting anywhere else.

And I think that that's a, a pretty good split the difference, right? You're playing the algorithm, but you're also trying to, to help people see what's really out there. And as I pointed out was this, I mentioned, which hasn't been mentioned by a lot of sources on the right that this article where she has this big fantasy about denying people consent.

She always couches it as a joke. And we've made jokes like that before as well. We just don't go in as much detail and they don't have a lot of correlation with our fetishes. So, yeah, like, we're not getting off on that, but I, I, I want to [00:57:00] stand her side as well. Unfortunately it's just very hard to stand and, and the idea of I am not a pedo. It's like, then why are you doing things with kids?

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: that's the thing that gets me about this, this I'm not a X, I'm not a Y. And what's been really cool is seeing our larger sort of YouTube community come together around this. You know, everyone's been standing kersha, she's explained because of this. Everyone's been standing leaflet over this. And, and YouTubers who I previously wasn't sure what I felt about them, like Ace ended up reporting this individual to the FBI, which I think is absolutely justified.

I would not be surprised if we find really heinous things that this person has done. If you dig a little bit deeper given, given the things that they've justified within their own life, publicly clear, like blind spots, they have, like I'm against phenotypically youthful you know, lude tubers, but I'm not against age plate.

Like what? Like what, what, what? Like, so this is a person who seems to be able to justify anything to themselves. And so this [00:58:00] individual this guy Ace who has a smaller YouTube, I've seen him occasionally mostly just attacking short Fatto taco. And at first I was just like, Ugh. He's like an ultra right curmudgeon.

And I'm like, you know what? No, he's, he's on our team because we've attacked short fighter Otaku before as, as well

Speaker 8: What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Malcolm Collins: And so I'm like, well, maybe I'm realizing that this like wider circle of YouTubers has a lot more in common. And I think that we need to get better about that, like helping feature each other, helping promote each other and, and, and discussing things with each other.

And I always feel like, Hey, why aren't, why haven't we been on this channel yet? Why haven't we been on the, you know, so I gotta get better at, at, at pinging these people. We do, like for example, I ping Lotus Eaters all the time and for whatever reason he is ever had a son or gotten back to us.

But I assume it's just because, you know, we're not. I've seen him at events, but I'm always afraid to talk to him because I have that look of, is this guy my friend? I feel like I know him really well, but I [00:59:00] don't know from where. And then after the event I'm like, that was sargon of a cod. That's why I thought I knew him.

But at like multiple events now we've, we've gone together. It's spoken at the same time.

Simone Collins: Well, thanks for enlightening me. It is interesting how one person's attempt to cancel another led to a deep dive on them by many people. In, in one of the biggest cellphones at least in this little corner of the internet, the v YouTuber corner of the internet in maybe ever.

So,

Malcolm Collins: well, we've been seeing this repeatedly, like, what we do in the shadows or whatever. That the other guy who tried to cancel somebody this year that we did the piece on.

In Praise of Shadows: so what if he's a conservative? Is that a problem? Which, the answer to that is yes. But the reason that I care is because this does not belong in horror. Or anywhere. I care deeply about horror, and everything that he does has demonstrated so far in his career that he should not be welcomed in our spaces.

Or even, you know, just in public in general.

Malcolm Collins: Every time somebody has [01:00:00] tried to cancel somebody this year, it's been like a ba like punching elastic and their fist flies back and smacks them in the face.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Canceling doesn't work the way it used to, I guess.

Malcolm Collins: No canceling works in reverse now. Mm-hmm. And predominantly in reverse. Now we, we actually even saw this on the right. One of these right wing guys, I wanna say James Lindsay. We've met him at a number of events. But he tried to create this concept of like the woke right, to like further police, like, what's going on, what's in the right?

Okay. And while I do think that we on the right should push pa. Push people out who are just gonna sink our cause. Like, you know, the, the far racist and, and, and antisemites and stuff like that. I think was a fairly big Overton window. Even when people disagree with us pretty severely, we should not be censoring what's being said in our communities if it's promoting the wider agenda.

Mm-hmm. And, and he doesn't think that he wants to, to censor. Pretty significantly what's being said on the right. Mm-hmm. And it's just completely flown back and hit him in the face. Like basically none of the mainstream arguing voices support him in this. And it's been interesting to see that it's not just when the left tries to do this, it's when the right tries to do this as well.[01:01:00]

Simone Collins: Okay. Well that's good because in the end that sanctimonious. Nonsense is tedious and I don't like it, so ha ha. I'm gonna go make Mabo dofu. I'm really excited and I'll see you. I'm gonna, I'm

Malcolm Collins: actually really excited.

Simone Collins: Well, we'll see. If it turns out, I'm gonna try to double up the sauce. So I need to look at what actual scratch Mabo Dofu sauce is, 'cause I know you wanted me to use that pack you got, but you probably also imagine it's too light on the sauce, right?

So. Shall I do that? I don't know the last time you made it by the PAX instructions. It was really good. Okay, then I'll just do that safety first. That'll be easier. All right. An off. I do you actually, actually, I'm, I'm, I'm a couple minutes late for . And the cotton candy machine is, has shipped it

Malcolm Collins: is here. Or shipped? It's shipped. It is shipped. It's not here yet. It is. We wouldn't buy our kids on the cruise, $2 50 cent cotton candy because i's like, that's too expensive. But as soon as we got home, we bought a machine to make cotton candy. One of the industrial ones like you have at fairgrounds as well.

Oh, we bought

Simone Collins: it on point. [01:02:00] Okay. So technically it costs less than $2 and 50 cents because it costs. Nothing but points. I mean, there's obviously the opportunity cost. We could have used those points to buy a necessity, but I just love that what we do is when we see our kids like something, we're like, I'm not gonna buy, you know, I'm not gonna have someone get a fish for me.

I'm gonna buy a fishing boat. Oh, they wanna play on a bouncy house. I won't pay for go to one. I'm gonna buy one that can go in my house. Yes. But no, we've gotten a lot of mileage out of those bouncy hall houses. Oh yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You, you looked at me skeptically when I first got there.

Simone Collins: I did. You're not going outside though that's not getting wet.

It's, you're gonna ruin it instantly. When you do that, every time you take an inflatable or some kind of thing outside, it works one time and then you break it. And I'm not doing it with this.

Yeah, are you seeing everyone watch the movie?

Are you happy I can talk this fast? Hi, [01:03:00] birthday. I can talk that fast.