Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

Simone and Malcolm examine the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, Girls, and Two-Spirit (MMIWG2S) movement and the dominant narrative that frames high rates of violence against Native women primarily as the legacy of settler colonialism, racism, and systemic failures.

They dig into historical intertribal warfare and raiding practices, the actual circumstances of Sacagawea’s life (captured as a child, sold, and one of multiple wives of a fur trapper by age 16), National Institute of Justice and CDC data on perpetrators of violence and homicide, Canadian statistics showing the large majority of accused are Indigenous, reservation versus off-reservation patterns, tribal sovereignty and property rules, residential school claims, the smallpox-blanket episode in context, and internal corruption during the Trail of Tears.

The discussion challenges the “noble savage” framing, argues that most violence is intra-community, and questions whether preserving certain cultural and legal structures is helping or harming the people living under them. Strong language and dark historical accounts throughout.

Show Notes

Note: If you want to know how we’ve been gaslit about historical American Indians, watch Matt Walsh’s What Schools Don’t Teach You About American Indians

Another note: Acronyms: American Indian/Alaska Native (AI/AN)

There’s a movement called called MMIWG2S

I first learned about it, ironically, from TheHolyBall, because of his song MMIWG2SLGBTQQIA+

I was like… what is MMIWG2S?

MMIWG2S stands for Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, Girls, and Two-Spirit people. It is a grassroots movement and a term used to describe and bring awareness to the severe, disproportionate rates of systemic violence, kidnapping, and murder faced by Indigenous communities across the United States and Canada

According to organizations like the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women, violence against Native women and children is primarily framed as a legacy of Spanish and Euro-American invasion, settler colonialism, and continuing structural forces such as anti-Indigenous racism, bordertown violence, police brutality, and failures within the judicial system.

Wow, that sounds bad. Is it true? I thought that broadly speaking, most acts of violence and murder are committed by people with whom the victim is close.

National Institute of Justice Findings

The most cited national estimate is NIJ’s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey analysis, published in 2016

* It found that 97% of American Indian or Alaska Native women who reported one or more of these forms of lifetime violence had experienced at least one incident involving a non-American Indian/Alaska Native or/interracial perpetrator; 35% had experienced at least one incident involving an AI/AN/intraracial perpetrator.

* These numbers do not mean 97% of incidents were committed by non-Indigenous people and 3% by Indigenous people. The categories overlap: a woman who was harmed by both an Indigenous and a non-Indigenous perpetrator appears in both columns. NIJ explicitly says its analysis measured whether someone had any interracial and/or intraracial victimization, not the count of incidents by each group.

* For scale, the same survey found that 84.3% of AI/AN women reported one or more of the measured forms of lifetime violence: 56.1% sexual violence, 55.5% physical intimate-partner violence, 48.8% stalking, and 66.4% psychological aggression by an intimate partner.

The report PDF

Per this report, what percentage of violence against american indian and alaska native women and men is committed by american indian and alaska native people?

* Among American Indian and Alaska Native people who had experienced the covered forms of violence, 35% of female victims and 33% of male victims had experienced violence by at least one American Indian or Alaska Native perpetrator (termed intraracial violence)

* The same report found that 97% of female victims and 90% of male victims had experienced violence by at least one non-AI/AN perpetrator.

About the National Institute of Justice: It’s the Justice Department’s research and evaluation arm

Older US Data

An older Bureau of Justice Statistics analysis, using 1992–96 National Crime Victimization Survey data for all American Indian victims, not women alone, estimated that individual violent-crime victimizations involved perpetrators described as:

* 60% White

* 10% Black

* 29% “other”—a category that combined American Indian and Asian perpetrators, though BJS said this group was likely predominantly other American Indians

IMPORTANT: This is an incident-based estimate, unlike the NIJ “ever experienced” figures

Table 9 from the report:

Why This is Suss

First: In the older report, they group native americans with “Asians” in a manner that could be done to reduce the percentage of crimes perpetrated by indigenous americans

Second: In the newer report, they group non-indigenous people with mixed-race people.

* Recall that the National Institute of Justice found that 97% of American Indian or Alaska Native women who reported one or more of these forms of lifetime violence had experienced at least one incident involving a non-American Indian/Alaska Native or/interracial perpetrator

* WELL WHAT PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFY AS AMERICAN INDIAN/ALASKA NATIVE ARE ALSO INTERRACIAL?

Third: In the newer report, they asked behavioral questions rather than using documented proof

How was data collected for this research?

* Interviewers called randomly selected landline and mobile-phone numbers.

* The relevant analytic sample included 2,473 AI/AN adult women and 1,505 AI/AN adult men, including people identifying as AI/AN alone or alongside another racial group.

* The survey used behaviorally specific questions about what respondents had experienced, rather than relying solely on respondents’ own labels for events—for example, questions about force or threats in sexual violence.=

What were the exact behaviorally specific questions used?

* The questions were asked in respondent-friendly language and were behavior-specific—for example, asking whether particular acts happened rather than asking “Were you abused?” The complete scripted 2010 questionnaire is publicly available from CDC

* Below are representative items/wording from the instrument, organized by what the AI/AN report measured. This is paraphrased rather than reproducing the full questionnaire verbatim.

* Physical intimate-partner violence: A partner slapping; pushing or shoving; pulling hair; hitting with a fist or object; kicking; slamming the person against something; trying to choke or suffocate them; beating; burning them intentionally; or using/threatening a knife or gun.

* Psychological aggression: An intimate partner acting dangerously; calling the respondent names, insulting, or humiliating them.

* Coercive control: Threats; interference with family or friends; restricting access to money; monitoring or controlling the respondent’s activities; and controlling reproductive or sexual health.

* Stalking: Repeated unwanted calls, messages, emails, or other contact; watching or following from a distance; use of technology such as GPS or cameras; and leaving odd or potentially threatening items—asked in the context of fear or concern for safety.

* Completed or attempted forced penetration: Being physically forced into vaginal, anal, or oral penetration; having penetration attempted through force; or being penetrated when unable to consent because of alcohol or drugs.

* Made to penetrate: Being physically forced, pressured, or incapacitated and made to penetrate someone else; this measure included completed and attempted incidents for male respondents.

* Sexual coercion: Unwanted sexual penetration after nonphysical pressure—such as persistent pressure, threats to end a relationship, or threats to spread rumors.

* Unwanted sexual contact: Unwanted sexual kissing, fondling, touching, or grabbing.

* Non-contact sexual experiences: Someone exposing themselves or masturbating in front of the respondent; forcing the respondent to show body parts; making them view or participate in sexual images or videos; or sexually harassing them in public in a way that felt unsafe.

More Measurable Data: Homicides

What percentage of USA-based homicides with American Indian/Alaska Native (AI/AN) victims are perpetrated by American Indian/Alaska Native (AI/AN) people?

* In the best available CDC analysis (published 2021, looking at data from 2003 to 2018), 32.1% of homicides with AI/AN victims had an AI/AN suspect. The corresponding figures were 39.6% non-AI/AN suspects and 28.3% with the suspect’s race/ethnicity unknown.

* This result comes from 2,226 AI/AN homicide victims recorded in the National Violent Death Reporting System across 34 states and Washington, DC, from 2003–2018. A suspect was identified in 82.8% of these homicides; the 32.1%, 39.6%, and 28.3% figures are presented relative to the full set of AI/AN homicide cases, with unknown perpetrator race retained as its own category.

* If you limit the denominator to cases where the suspect’s race/ethnicity was known, then about 44.8% of AI/AN-victim homicides with a known-race suspect were attributed to an AI/AN suspect, and 55.2% to a non-AI/AN suspect.

The Reality of Murder and Violence in the USA

Using the FBI’s national single-victim/single-offender homicide table for 2019, about 84% of cases with a known victim race and known offender race involved a match within the same broad racial category, and about 16% involved different broad racial categories. This is the closest defensible national “in-group vs cross-race” estimate, but it is not a clean all-race-and-ethnicity measure.

Where does violence/murder take most for American Indians and Alaska Natives?

About 87% of people who identified as American Indian and/or Alaska Native (AI/AN), alone or in combination with another race, lived outside reservations and other tribal statistical areas in the 2020 Census. About 13% lived on reservations or other trust lands/tribal statistical areas.

Are American Indians and Alaska natives more likely to experience violence when living on a reservation or when living off a reservation?

* The TL:DR is that nobody is asking:

* For violence overall, there is no good national, apples-to-apples estimate that can say AI/AN people are more likely to experience it on versus off reservations. The evidence indicates serious violence can be extremely high in some reservation-based communities, but national data do not adequately measure and compare urban/off-reservation AI/AN victimization using the same definitions and denominators.

* What can be said:

* The Bureau of Indian Affairs summarizes available evidence as finding that violence rates on some reservations can be up to ten times the national average, and that an NIJ-funded study found high reservation violence rates. But it also explicitly notes a major evidence gap: comparable rates of murder and violence among AI/AN women living in urban areas have not been adequately studied. That means “higher on reservations than off reservations” is not established nationally for all violence.

* The exact quote: “While it is estimated that rates of violence on reservation can be up to ten times higher than national averages, research is missing on rates of murder violence among American Indian and Alaska Native women living in urban areas. An NIJ-funded study from 2008 found that the rates of violence on reservations are much higher than the national average. However, according to the Urban Indian Health Institute, no research has been done on the rates of such violence among American Indian and Alaska Native women living in urban areas despite the fact that approximately 71 percent of American Indian and Alaska Natives live in urban areas.”

* SO THEY’RE BASICALLY SAYING THEY DON’T WANT TO ANSWER THE QUESTION BECAUSE IT LOOKS REALLY BAD????

Canadian Findings

For Canada, the best national source-specific statistic is for homicide, not all abuse or violence. Statistics Canada found that, among Indigenous women and girls killed from 2014–21 in cases where an accused person was identified, 86% of accused persons were Indigenous and roughly 14% were non-Indigenous. Most victims—81%—were killed by someone they knew.

Where We Stand

* American Indian and Alaska Native people are victims of violence at much higher rates

* The Institute of Justice actively obfuscates the extent to which this violence is committed by American Indians and Alaska Natives by

* Grouping them with other racial groups or “not counting them” if they’re interracial

* Getting very liberal with definitions of abuse

* Rates of violent crimes are higher on reservations

* It’s clear both generally and per Canadian homicide statistics about indigenous Canadians that most violence committed against people are committed within communities; not by outsiders

In fairness to native groups, not all members of the MMIWG2S gaslight about perpetrators of violence.

* The National Indigenous Women’s Resource Center (NIWRC), a prominent Native-led anti-violence and MMIW advocacy organization, publishes materials calling for accountability for offenders in tribal communities. Its guidance discusses coordinated responses to individual offender cases, sanctions and re-education for batterers, and community systems that hold people who abuse accountable.

* The Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women and related MMIWG2S advocates similarly frame MMIWG as involving domestic violence, sexual assault, trafficking, and homicide, while supporting survivor services and accountability in Native communities.

* EVEN THOUGH THEY CONTINUE TO INSIST IT’S EUROPEANS WHO SOMEHOW CAUSED ALL THIS VIOLENCE.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Simone Collins: Yeah, so there’s this movement called MMIW G2 S.

[00:00:08] , it stands for

[00:00:10] Speaker 4: . they provided zero dollars to deal with the ongoing genocide of MMIWG2SLGBTQQIA+.

[00:00:19] Simone Collins: I

[00:00:19] so according to organizations like the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women, violence against native women and children is primarily framed as a legacy of Spanish and Euro-American invasion, settler colonialism, and continuing structural forces such as anti-indigenous racism, border town violence, police brutality, and failures within the judicial system.

[00:00:44] Wow, that sounds really bad. Is it true? I thought that probably speaking, most acts of violence were, you know, like, like murder, were committed by- Mm ... by people with whom the victim is close, right? Like, is that generally the saying-

[00:00:59] Malcolm Collins: That is generally true, yes.

[00:01:00] Simone Collins: Co- So let’s, okay, let’s figure out what’s happening then.

[00:01:03] If, if white colonialism is causing missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and two-spirit people, let’s find out what’s going on.

[00:01:12] Would you like to know more?

[00:01:13] Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm, I’m so excited to be speaking with you today because I have been gaslit about American Indians and I am angry.

[00:01:23] I, I, the young lady who was obsessed with Sacagawea as a kid and wrote big school reports on her. I dressed up as her, though of course that would get me in trouble now, and I collected those golden Sacagawea coins. I don’t know if you remember these.

[00:01:39] Malcolm Collins: Yes ...

[00:01:39] Simone Collins: and I spent hours as a kid and teen sitting next to bedrock mortars created by the Neshnon people along the American River, just thinking in, you know, in reverence about these amazing, peaceful people just grinding, you know, food in these really cool mortars.

[00:01:55] Little did I know how much I’d been gaslit about American Indians. I didn’t know that by some accounts 96% of American Indian tribes had engaged in warfare and that 85% of American tribes either conducted or actively resisted raids at least once a year. At least once a year. I had no idea. On other

[00:02:14] Malcolm Collins: tribes?

[00:02:14] Yes,

[00:02:14] Simone Collins: on other tribes. Wait, wasn’t Sacagawea’s tribe

[00:02:17] Malcolm Collins: the

[00:02:19] Simone Collins: one where they would-

[00:02:20] Malcolm Collins: Kill people by peeling off their skin using clam shells? I

[00:02:23] Simone Collins: had heard that before, but I was like, oh, it’s, it’s, you know, a, adult colonists. Who cares, right? Like, there was an invasion- Not

[00:02:29] Malcolm Collins: children. Uh-oh.

[00:02:31] Simone Collins: Yeah, but I guess, you know, I hadn’t read the account of Rachel, Rachel Parker Plummer who was captured by Comanche Indians while pregnant, and if you wanna figure out what happened

[00:02:40] Malcolm Collins: to

[00:02:41] Simone Collins: her- Well, not

[00:02:41] Malcolm Collins: the Comanches-

[00:02:41] and her infant- ... but we’re talking about, the, the point is it’s not just the Comanches. You see this across, like, extremely brutal behavior.

[00:02:47] Simone Collins: Well, and you can understand why. I mean, it’s a very simple di- and one, I mean, almost all primitive cultures regardless of where they are, have engaged in violent raiding and behavior.

[00:02:55] Like, this is just, a lot of it comes down to a lack of civilization that we’re, like, refusing to talk about here. But also, I mean, w- in the end, if, if you have an environment, a, a continent in which there are raiding and violent tribes that steal resources from other tribes by killing and stealing, and then you have the peaceful ones, well, after a certain number of, of decades, the peaceful ones are gonna be dead, and the ones who fight back and are also violent and can defend themselves are going to survive.

[00:03:24] You know, limping forward. So

[00:03:26] Malcolm Collins: obviously- Well, until, the, but the thing is is it’s, it’s different where in Europe you’re able to build full-scale civilization that was able to defend itself and was large enough to the point where your average person didn’t yearly live with the risk-

[00:03:38] Simone Collins: So civilization is the bulwark that, that, that, that shifts humans from, from animals into humans.

[00:03:43] They’re the thing that, that prevents us from devolving into violence and ferocity. But

[00:03:47] Malcolm Collins: what I was most excited about following here was your im- in- No,

[00:03:51] Simone Collins: no, no, I, Malcolm, I told you not to interrupt me, and you are. Okay. So you just gotta- Okay. No, no, no ... keep your mouth shut because I still have to, this, ‘cause this is so disturbing to, you have to understand, Malcolm, I’m, like, so [00:04:00] steamed about this.

[00:04:01] Because, you know, like I, I mentioned, I was super into Sacagawea as a kid. I didn’t know, despite doing an entire school report on her in the 1990s, that by the time that Lewis and Clark met Sacagawea in 1804, do you know how old she was?

[00:04:15] Malcolm Collins: How?

[00:04:16] Simone Collins: She was 16 years old. You know, the one with the baby on her back?

[00:04:20] And she was only one of the wives of this, this French Canadian fur trapper, one of his wives, who had purchased her from a tribe that had captured her, that likely at the time they captured her ‘cause she was Shoshone and she was taken by the Hidatsa people apparently, as a kid. They probably killed her parents, and then they sold her into sex slavery to some, like, French Canadian trapper who had multiple women.

[00:04:47] And so here’s she, th- basically she’s a trafficked woman who’s been put on a gold coin, and everyone’s like, “Oh, lovely woman, lovely...” She died at, like, age, age 24 approximately. Of course, no one also, I didn’t know that either. So here’s this woman who’s like, “Oh, yes, Native Americans are so wonderful. Oh, you know, s- oh, yes, of course, the, the trafficked slave.”

[00:05:07] Love it. Love it for her. I, I, I thought she was some adult model, you know? Trafficked

[00:05:11] Malcolm Collins: by, by, by the way-

[00:05:11] Simone Collins: Trafficked,

[00:05:11] Malcolm Collins: trafficked by- ... by Indians ... a

[00:05:15] Simone Collins: Native American tribe that captured her So

[00:05:18] Malcolm Collins: just, just, just in case people are wondering the guy who was engaged in sex slavery and owned her was, can you guess what religion?

[00:05:27] Simone Collins: Oh God, was he Catholic?

[00:05:28] Malcolm Collins: He was Catholic.

[00:05:29] Simone Collins: Malcolm, I have to reset my- ... hours since Malcolm’s last Catholic, anti-Catholic scree. Fantastic. Of course. No,

[00:05:36] Malcolm Collins: I just needed to check. I was like, would my people engage in that practice?

[00:05:40] Simone Collins: Of course.

[00:05:40] Malcolm Collins: I don’t

[00:05:40] Simone Collins: think so. Of course. Of... No, they would just, like, marry the ones that they thought were chill.

[00:05:44] They didn’t have to buy them, okay? But like, look, look. Well, honestly though, like I, I didn’t know all of these things had happened to Sacagawea because I had used library books in the ‘90s, before the internet was accessible to me, to learn about her. And some people, I wonder who, were just systematically just erasing all the inconvenient parts of her upbringing and childhood.

[00:06:10] Well, I guess still childhood, because I, I didn’t know she was 16 freaking years old when all this was happening. She was a fr- she was a teenager, and we demonize Jeffrey Epstein for tempting young girls with money to do disgusting things, but when American Indians kidnap girls, kill their parents, and sell them into sex slavery, oh, it was just a different time.

[00:06:27] They were mostly peaceful people. And I reckon that we say that we’re all pretty glad that Jeffrey Epstein is dead, but when people talk about the erasure of Native American culture, oh, it’s a tragedy. And I can’t tell you about what American Indians did historically, because I tried to do it in another episode and I just started ugly crying, and I’m not doing that again because I, I don’t want

[00:06:50] There’s too much of that already. And so what I can tell you about is that it’s possible that we are actively being lied to about American Indians now, not just historically. And so because I’m, I’m pissed at American Indian culture and the damage it may still be doing to this day, I’m coming for it.

[00:07:07] Malcolm Collins: To, to people of Native American descent, mind you.

[00:07:10] It-

[00:07:10] Simone Collins: Yeah, yep, yes ... this proportion- Yeah, exactly, ‘

[00:07:12] Malcolm Collins: cause there’s, there’s- ... same way the Sacagawea, this is a, the, that, this is being covered up. Yeah. The number one group that is suffering for it today-

[00:07:19] Simone Collins: Is Native Americans ... are

[00:07:20] Malcolm Collins: Native Americans.

[00:07:21] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:21] Malcolm Collins: The number one victim of the brutality of Native American culture- Because

[00:07:25] Simone Collins: we, because we are, we are refusing to say that this is a primitive culture that we have not allowed to evolve into a civilized culture that is allowing people to be abused and hurt.

[00:07:35] Yeah, so there’s this movement called MMIW G2 S.

[00:07:40] Speaker: G B T yeah K

[00:07:52] Simone Collins: It, it, it, it stands for missing and murdered indigenous women, girls, and two-spirit people. And I didn’t [00:08:00] even know it existed until Holy Ball made a song called MMIWG2SLGP2QQIA

[00:08:10] Plus. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s a good song. I love that song.

[00:08:13] Speaker 4: . They provided zero dollars to deal with the ongoing genocide of MMIWG2SLGBTQQIA+.

[00:08:22] Simone Collins: I d- I, I was confused to this whole addendum that had been put on the front of- the, the alphabet. And a- a- and then it’s, w- actually, when I was trying to search for the, the Holy Ball song on YouTube, some other songs from the MMIW G2S movement came up, like about missing, murdered indigenous women and girls, et cetera.

[00:08:46] So according to organizations like the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women, violence against native women and children is primarily framed as a legacy of Spanish and Euro-American invasion, settler colonialism, and continuing structural forces such as anti-indigenous racism, border town violence, police brutality, and failures within the judicial system.

[00:09:11] Wow, that sounds really bad. Is it true? I thought that probably speaking, most acts of violence were, you know, like, like murder, were committed by- Mm ... by people with whom the victim is close, right? Like, is that generally the saying-

[00:09:26] Malcolm Collins: That is generally true, yes.

[00:09:27] Simone Collins: Co- So let’s, okay, let’s figure out what’s happening then.

[00:09:30] If, if white colonialism is causing missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and two-spirit people, let’s find out what’s going on. So the

[00:09:40] Malcolm Collins: national- This would be like if you compared the, like, grape rates of, like, Black women or, like, murder rates of Black women, and then try to frame it in a way that it’s like it’s white people doing this to them, when, like, everyone would be like, “I don’t think it is.”

[00:09:53] Actually, there was the great chart that looked at directional grape rates over the course of-

[00:09:58] Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s been trending recently ... a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:10:00] And- No, i- interracial, interracial rates of- And

[00:10:03] Malcolm Collins: it showed the white male on Black female was literally zero for the entire year.

[00:10:08] Simone Collins: Right, but the untold story there is how, and this is sounding so bad, but how Black women are screwed in dating markets, that they perform worse in, in swipe-based dating markets, and even on non-swipe based ones, than Asian men, who perform dismally.

[00:10:25] Which is to say Like, this sounds so bad, but it’s one of those, like, no one even wants

[00:10:31]

[00:10:34] Simone Collins: situations. Because that is, this is how much bias and, like-

[00:10:37] Malcolm Collins: I’m definitely cutting that out, Simone. I

[00:10:40] Simone Collins: know- I am- ... but I’m saying, like, that’s, that’s what’s really going on here.

[00:10:44] Malcolm Collins: But any- but the, the, the us not being able to talk about this leads to worse o- outcomes for these groups.

[00:10:52] Simone Collins: Exactly. And, and what’s, what’s so disturbing about this is that it’s being actively actively sort of buried. It’s like, “Oh, there’s this big problem. It’s all because of...” And then e- so it... Look, if there’s- So

[00:11:03] Malcolm Collins: if there’s a giant problem with trafficking and rape and disappearing of women in these communities- Yeah

[00:11:10] what we should be doing is

[00:11:13] Simone Collins: really focusing- It’s like, no, it’s, it’s like there’s a leak in your house ... on the men in these communities. There’s, like, a leak coming through the roof like in this room right now dripping on top of me. And people are coming over and I’m like, “I’m getting soaked here.

[00:11:22] Help me out.” And they’re like, “All right, heading straight to the bathroom. I bet it’s the toilet.” You know, they’re like down there in the basement. I’m sitting here on the third floor being rained on. Like, that’s, that’s the problem. Anyway, I wanted to look at what, what formal institutions are saying, and the National Institute of Justice is one of the prominent bodies that is, and this is, I think it’s a branch of the Department of Justice. Let me, let me double-check. Yeah, it’s the Justice Department’s research and evaluation arm. So this is- The, you know, best and brightest of the US government putting this together for us, really trying to solve tough, wicked problems. And they have provided the most cited national estimate of [00:12:00] national intimate partner and sexual violence from that survey.

[00:12:03] So and the, the, the most cited one was published in 2016. It found that 97% of American Indian or Alaska Native women who reported one or more of some form of lifetime violence had experienced at least one incident involving a non-Native American Indian/Alaska Native or interracial perpetrator. 35% had experienced at least one incident involving an American Indian or Alaska Native interracial perpetrator.

[00:12:31] So what they’re saying here is, look, 97% are getting hit from outside the room. Only 35% had only experienced at least one incident involving someone of their own kind. These numbers look pretty bad. The, the same survey found that 84.3% of American Indian or Alaska Native women were reported one or more of the, the measured forms of lifetime violence.

[00:12:55] 56.1 sexual violence, 55.5 physical intimate partner violence, 48.8 stalking, 66.4 psychological aggression by an intimate partner. I linked to the report’s PDF and a lot of other things in the show notes, so you can take a look at that. But I, I also asked, I, like, opened the PDF and then I used AI to ask what percentage of violence against American Indian and Alaska Native women and men is committed by American Indian and Alaska Native people And the answer is, among American Indian and Alaska Native people who had experienced the covered forms of violence, 35% of female victims and 33% of male victims had experienced violence at least by one American Indian or Alaska Native perpetra- perpetrator.

[00:13:37] So, that confused me. I, I was also confused that the same report found that 97% of female victims and 90% of male victims had experienced violence by at least one non-American Indian or Alaska Native perpetrator. And then there’s also older US data that also the Bureau of Justice Statistics Analysis had, had posted looking at a 1992 to ‘96 ra- range of national crime victimization survey data of all American Indian victims, not women alone.

[00:14:05] And they found that it involved perpetrators being described as 60% white, 10% Black, 29% other, a category that combined American Indian and Asian perpetrators which is interesting. So here’s what I find sus about these reports, ‘cause I’m not gonna make you figure it out yourself. First, in the older report I just mentioned, they group Native Americans with Asians in a matter that could be done to reduce the percentage of crimes perpetrated by Indigenous Americans.

[00:14:34] Like, you, you wouldn’t... You’re like, “Well, that must be, like, mostly Asians then.” Like-

[00:14:39] Malcolm Collins: That, that seems intentionally,

[00:14:41] Simone Collins: Yeah, like they’re really trying to, like, mm, like- There,

[00:14:44] Malcolm Collins: there is- ... look, it’s possibly

[00:14:45] Simone Collins: all Asians ...

[00:14:45] Malcolm Collins: no, hold on. There isn’t actually... Like, if you’re, if you had good aims in putting together these reports, there is no reason you wouldn’t set out the, the group that you are studying as a category- Mm-hmm

[00:14:58] in the attempted assaults.

[00:15:01] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:15:01] Malcolm Collins: You,

[00:15:01] Simone Collins: there is no- Wait, but remember Octa- No, no so, sorry. Keep thinking of our son. Malcolm, in the first report they did, right? They separated out that, that, that 35% rate of American Indian, Alaska Native, but do you wanna know what they did with the non-Alaska Native American Indian?

[00:15:18] What? That, like, much higher percentage. So I read it real fast, but the not American Indian, Alaska Native included interracial people. So if the perceived attacker had a drop of non-pure Native American blood,

[00:15:35] Malcolm Collins: they- They encountered them as whatever other... And the fact that the interracial label was dropped from the second survey means it would probably did the same thing to lower the rates.

[00:15:47] Because I thought- Well, that- ... those rates sounded low. And yeah, you’re- And then I hear this and I’m like, oh, that’s how they’re low. They’re- Well,

[00:15:52] Simone Collins: they, they just grouped, they grouped, like, every other, like, basically non-American Indian plus [00:16:00] any American Indian that’s interracial all in one group, and that was the only two groups that they looked at.

[00:16:05] It was either American Indian, Alaska Native or not, but not included interracial, which is- Insanely suspicious. And it just looked to me like they were trying to, like, hand wave away the call coming from within the house. And that made me angry. Of course, not as angry as historical accounts of Native American violence, because I’m not even gonna get into that.

[00:16:26] You can look it up yourself, okay? Mm-hmm. I’ll link to a great video by Matt Walsh that you can watch, that I couldn’t finish because I started crying too hard. Okay? But anyway I also wanna touch on, because I’ll- keep in mind they, they were talking about various forms of violence that people reported for this report.

[00:16:43] This is less important to my argument, but I still found it notable. For, for the, the research collected in the most cited 2016 study interviewers called randomly selected landline and mobile phone numbers. And the relevant analytic sample studied or looked at, included 2,473 American Indian and Alaska Native adult women, and 1,505 American Indian Alaska Native adult men.

[00:17:09] And this included people identifying as these things alongside other groups. So either alone or, like, like I’m half this, half that, or, you know, just I’m pure, pure Cherokee, whatever. And the survey used be- behaviorally specific questions about what respondents had experienced rather than relying on respondents’ own labels.

[00:17:30] Like, were you beaten? Are you the victim of sexual violence? Are you the victim of abuse? They didn’t ask that. They asked questions. Can I ask you some example questions? Because they were asked from in this sort of respondent-friendly language and, and behavior-specific, Yeah ... and the questionnaire that was used, ‘cause it’s a complete scripted 2010 questionnaire that they used it’s available publicly from the CDC.

[00:17:53] So I created representative wording from the instrument, and I’m gonna ask you some questions so you can see if I have ever abused you. Can I? Are you ready for this?

[00:18:03] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah, sure. Sure.

[00:18:04] Simone Collins: All right. I’m calling you. Ring, ring. Ring,

[00:18:06] Malcolm Collins: ring. Hello, it’s Malcolm.

[00:18:09] Simone Collins: Hello, sir. Have you ever experienced a partner slapping, pushing, or shoving, or pulling hair, or hitting with a fist or object, or kicking, or slamming you against something, or trying to choke or suffocate you, or beating you, or burning you intentionally, or using or threatening a knife or gun?

[00:18:28] Time, what a great time. Have I never, have I never pushed you or shoved you?

[00:18:31] Malcolm Collins: Hold on. The, the, the push is the easiest thing there.

[00:18:34] Simone Collins: I mean, are you gonna deny that I’ve shoved you?

[00:18:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I d- that’s the one, that’s the big one there. Like, yeah, she’s probably shoved me before.

[00:18:43] Simone Collins: These are psychological aggression. Have I acted dangerously, called you names, insulted you, or humiliated you?

[00:18:51] Malcolm Collins: Yes, of course. By accident. Okay.

[00:18:54] Simone Collins: Have I threatened you, interfered with your family or friends restricted your access to money, monitored or- Yes

[00:19:02] controlled your activities? Have I controlled- A

[00:19:05] Malcolm Collins: thousand times yes. I am

[00:19:06] Simone Collins: constantly bullied ... have I controlled your reproductive or sexual health? Yeah all these things. Also have you, have you rece- stalking. Have you received repeated unwanted calls, messages, emails or other contact- Today Have I followed you-

[00:19:22] Malcolm Collins: Malcolm, have you given

[00:19:23] Simone Collins: me the Twitter episode yet?

[00:19:23] from a distance or used technology such as GPS or cameras, or leaving odd and potentially threatening items asked asking you in the context of fear of control or concern for your safety?

[00:19:34] Malcolm Collins: Yes. Yes, 100%. Right now she’s setting up cameras, little recording devices all over the house for our website.

[00:19:41] Simone Collins: Yep.

[00:19:43] So I think Malcolm, you’re a

[00:19:44] Malcolm Collins: victim- I

[00:19:45] Simone Collins: am in the,

[00:19:46] Malcolm Collins: You have abusive Max me here.

[00:19:48] Simone Collins: Yeah, you’re a victim of abuse. I’m not gonna read the rest of them. But what I’m trying to say is the, the kind of survey that they’re presenting could be leading to a little bit of over-reporting. Hopefully not, you know.

[00:19:57] Hopefully they’re doing this in good faith, but what I’m [00:20:00] more, what I’m more,

[00:20:00] Malcolm Collins: No, this is clearly not in good faith.

[00:20:04] Simone Collins: I know. I know. It’s got- It’s, it’s not g- it doesn’t look great. The research- No survey

[00:20:08] Malcolm Collins: done in good faith would include multi-ethnic people as not Native Americans if they’re

[00:20:12] Simone Collins: living in the US No, that, that’s, that’s the egregious thing.

[00:20:14] Super egregious. And then I mean, also going back to our sanity test at the beginning of this if, if we’re just gonna ask what percentage of USA based homicides with American Indian and Alaska Native victims are perpetrated by American Indian and Alaska Native people, well, per the best CDC analysis, which was published in 2021, but was only looking at data from 2003 to 2018, 32% of homicides with an American Indian or Alaska Native victim had a, a, a suspect that was also a, a, an indigenous American.

[00:20:48] And that was basically, like almost 40% had indigenous suspects and then almost another 30%, it was like, “Well, we don’t know who killed them.” And that’s coming from a sample of over 2,000 homicide victims. But then when you look at the reality of murder and violence in the USA, using the FBI’s national single victim or single offender homicide table for 2019, around 84% of cases with a known victim race and a known offender race involved a match within the same broad racial category, and around 16% involved different broad racial categories.

[00:21:26] So it’s super freaking weird to me that like- Everyone else kinda keeps it in the fam, and then there’s this, like, one group where it’s like, “Oh, I don’t know who killed them. It’s a mystery.” You know? Like-

[00:21:40] Well,

[00:21:40] Malcolm Collins: they don’t e- they don’t even include it in the data. You can’t cleanly include it in the data because of the way that they’re counting things.

[00:21:46] Simone Collins: Yeah. And then I also was like, okay, well, maybe I can look at, at this from the angle of, like, does... Where does this violence and murder take place most for American Indians and Alaska Natives? And a- apparently, about 87% of people who identified as American Indian or Alaska Native alone, or in combination with some other race, lived outside reservations and other tribal areas in the 2020 census.

[00:22:12] About 13% lived on reservations or other trust lands or tribal statistical areas. And I, I asked then, are American Indians and Alaska Natives more likely to experience violence when living on a reservation or when living off a reservation? And basically, no one’s asking, because I think they really don’t want the answer, for violence overall. There’s no good national apples to apples

[00:22:38] Malcolm Collins: estimate. That is suspicious that they don’t have that data.

[00:22:40] Simone Collins: It’s really suspicious. Basically, the indicates, the evidence that is out there indicates very serious violence can be extremely high in some reservation-based communities, but national data does not adequately measure and compare urban versus off-reservation American Indians and Alaska Natives.

[00:22:58] Wasn’t there recently

[00:22:58] Malcolm Collins: a case of a murder because of this, where they knew a person was likely to murder someo- someone?

[00:23:04] Simone Collins: That was a white woman and her husband.

[00:23:05] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it was a white woman, and, but he lived on a reservation, and the- Mm-hmm ... reservation police w- didn’t wanna do anything about it. Oh

[00:23:11] Simone Collins: my God, you’re right.

[00:23:12] Ah. And- I forgot that. Ooh.

[00:23:15] Malcolm Collins: They’re just like, “Yeah, we, when we have people who say they’re gonna murder women, we just let them do it.” Like, it’s the reservation policy.

[00:23:20] Simone Collins: I mean, that’s the, a, you know, yeah. It’s, it’s like the old Cambridge and Oxford days when they were like, “Ah, sorry, Oxford rules.” Like...

[00:23:28] Malcolm Collins: She’s talking here about when people were tried under different legal systems i- if they were students and this is what we’re seeing. And, and people are like, “Well, why can’t you just overturn it?” You can’t overturn it because of the the autonomy that’s been given to Native American communities.

[00:23:42] There was a great question where I was watching somebody heckle, Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk

[00:23:48] Simone Collins: Charlie

[00:23:48] Malcolm Collins: Kirk.

[00:23:48] About why can’t Native American communities, w- b- people who live in them do X, Y, and Z that a normal American can do?

[00:23:56] Speaker 2: I’m not sure if you even know this, but Native Americans are not [00:24:00] allowed to own private property on reservations. All native land is held in federal trust.

[00:24:04] Why do I never hear you speaking up for indigenous rights, Charlie? That’s a little too accusatory, but I do speak up for the best of native culture. You know what the first thing that needs to happen? The obliteration of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and redo it in a way that actually represents the best interest of native and indigenous people.

[00:24:19] Malcolm Collins: And the obvious answer, it, is th- that’s your own people doing that to you.

[00:24:25] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:24:26] Malcolm Collins: You know, we reorganized with your leaders a legal system- That’s it ... and they made it corrupt and abusive to you.

[00:24:31] Simone Collins: Yeah

[00:24:32] Malcolm Collins: Right? Like, one of the best things you could conceivably do for American Native Americans is to dissolve tribal autonomy.

[00:24:39] Simone Collins: Like, for real actually. Huh. But because look, the Bureau of Indian Affairs does summarize available evidence as, as finding that violence rates on some reservations can be up to 10 times the national average.

[00:24:54] The exact quote from this report, “While it is estimated- I can see

[00:24:57] Malcolm Collins: why they don’t wanna d- do the demographic breakdown here.

[00:25:01] Simone Collins: Yes. No, no, but the- No, it,

[00:25:02] Malcolm Collins: it’s white people coming in for, like, essay tourism, of course.

[00:25:07] Simone Collins: Oh, God. Yeah, so the way they worded it exactly, “While it is estimated that the rates of violence on reservation can be up to 10 times higher than national averages, research is missing on the rates of murder violence among American Indian and Alaska Native women living in urban areas.

[00:25:23] An NIJ-funded study from 2008 found that the rates of violence on reservations are much higher than the national average. However, according to the Urban Indian Health Institute, no research has been done on the rates of such violence among American Indian and Alaska Native women living in urban areas, despite the fact that approximately 71% of American Indian and Alaska Native live in urban areas.”

[00:25:46] So they’re basically saying they don’t want to answer the question because it looks really bad. And they’re like, “Well, I bet they’re killed off the reservation, too. Like, I’m totally sure, bro.” Like-

[00:25:56] Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right? I, I wanna point out here something you said at the beginning of this that’s really important for people to understand is my ancestors, you know, I, I come from- Originally Scottish ancestry were, were savages, right?

[00:26:09] They were godless savages. They practiced, you know, we know what they were practicing

[00:26:11] Simone Collins: Yeah, they like literally got kicked out of Scotland. Like they were-

[00:26:14] Malcolm Collins: Children sacrifice. No, no, no, but I’m talking about before the Christian period, right? Like they- Oh, sure ... they practiced human sacrifice.

[00:26:19] Simone Collins: Oh, oh, yeah.

[00:26:21] Malcolm Collins: They would sacrifice children under buildings and bridges to, you know, make them s- more stable.

[00:26:26] The, the

[00:26:26] Simone Collins: very- No, that was, that was below, that was below Hadrian’s Wall. I don’t know if the Scots got-

[00:26:29] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that might not have been as high up as my area, but they, they did really- No ... they, they, they were, it was very, you

[00:26:34] Simone Collins: know- No, but like literally when the Romans came to England and they got to Scotland, they’re like, “Well, let’s build a wall and just keep them-” Yeah, let’s build-

[00:26:40] on the other side.” ...

[00:26:42] Malcolm Collins: a barrier. Yeah. The, the point I’m making here is that when Simone and I talk about history from these time periods, and when we look for names from our children from these time periods, when we look at what we venerate from these time periods, what groups are we studying? We’re studying the Romans, we’re studying the Greeks, and we’re studying the Israelites.

[00:27:01] We are

[00:27:02] Simone Collins: not- But not, yeah, our literally own people were doing horrendous, horrible things because they lacked civilization. We honor civilization. The, it, this is not about like your genetic inheritance. This is about are you ruled by civil law by, by something higher than just your animal instincts, or are you not?

[00:27:19] And if you’re not- Mm-hmm ... then I don’t care. Like

[00:27:23] Malcolm Collins: you can keep the- But a pointless veneration for your own genetic ancestry, which is what we have in an extent sort of brainwashed or forced Native Americans to do within the American educational system, can lead to it being hard to build from that ancestry, where- Yeah,

[00:27:39] Simone Collins: there, there’s literally no such thing as a noble savage.

[00:27:41] Like the fact that, that this is being held onto is disgusting.

[00:27:45] Malcolm Collins: It, it’s racist. Yeah. The assumption that I have to venerate, when I look to the past, I have to venerate Celtic practices, right, is, would, would to me be a racist assumption. Oh, you think just because I’m genetically Celtic that [00:28:00] I have to venerate Celtic practices?

[00:28:02] Yeah, like no. No, I venerate- No ... Roman practices. Yeah. I venerate ancient Greek practices. I venerate ancient Israeli practices. I venerate the practices of the civilized world, right?

[00:28:12] Simone Collins: Yes, obviously.

[00:28:13] Malcolm Collins: Which I am a descendant of because I choose to be. That’s the great thing about civilization, is becoming civilized and identifying with the civilized world is fundamentally a choice.

[00:28:24] Mm-hmm. Right? Like you can decide when you look to history, do you read the, And I, and I know this because I’ve read them. I have read many of the because my parents made me read like the Popol Vuh and all of the ancient like Mayan writings, and I w- read many of the Native American origin stories and everything like that.

[00:28:44] And I, I, I went through them all. And these are stories often tens of thousands of years younger than you know, much less like The Iliad something like, you know, Dante’s Inferno or something like that, right? Mm-hmm. You know, or, Oh, what’s, what’s that Greek Roman one?

[00:29:00] Simone Collins: The Aeneid?

[00:29:01] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the Aeneid.

[00:29:03] Th- like the, like you contrast them with, like, the Aeneid, which they’re younger than, and you’re like, “This is... W- what are we even doing here,” right? Like- Yeah ... I, and I, I look at what my people were writing at around those time per- It was nothing, nothing, nothing interesting. If you look at, like, the broadest genetic correl- I guess Beowulf is the oldest thing out of, like, my broader area, and this is, like, 10,000 years after a lot of these other stories, and it’s frankly, I’m gonna be honest, like, artistically not very sophisticated.

[00:29:31] And, and the reason I say this, and it’s so important to elevate this point, is we’re not coming at this from some sort of, like, racialist, supremacist lens or something like that. What we’re saying is taking a racialist, supremacist lens, saying you must first and foremost identify with Native American culture you can’t say I’m this variant of Native American culture, permanently traps people in, in a cycle where when you say something like, “We need to dissolve the tribal governments.

[00:29:58] Can’t you see how corrupt they are? Can’t you see these horrible situations that they put you on?” Yeah, I remember what the person was saying. They were saying, “Why can’t we own private land on the reservations?” Oh. That is not the federal government’s choice. That is absolutely the reservation’s choice because, well, the, not the reservations, but the, the council that controls the reservation, because they don’t want anyone to have enough power base to challenge them.

[00:30:20] Like, not being able to question one’s own corrupt practices or one’s own, which is essentially the-

[00:30:26] Simone Collins: Oh, we’ll get to it actually. They, they- Yeah ... they kinda try Go, go, go, go. Yeah, this is kind of the sad ending of it, but in terms of government statistics on the actual perpetrators of the horrific violence and abuse that, that a lot of Native Americans, Alaska Natives, whatever American Indians are subject to Canada’s a little more honest.

[00:30:44] In for Canada, the best national source specific statistic is for homicide, not all abuse or violence, which is I would say more accurate, ‘cause again, those questions that I gave you were a little, little broad. Unless Malcolm have you just realized that you need some help? Look, ladies and gentlemen, help out Malcolm here.

[00:31:00] Tell Wait, wait, wait, but- Help him get out. Free Malcolm. #FreeMalcolm. But anyway, Statistics Canada- But- ... found that among indigenous women and girls killed from 2014 to 2021, so this is not the 1800s, this is not the 1950s. In cases where the accused person was identified, 86% of accused persons were indigenous and roughly 14% were non-indigenous.

[00:31:23] Most victims, 81%, were killed by someone they knew. So where we stand with all this, to sum it up, American Indian and Alaska Native people are victims of violence at much higher rates. It’s true. The Institute of Justice actively obfuscates the extent to which this violence is committed by American Indians and Alaska Natives by, one, grouping them with other racial groups or not counting them if they are interracial, basically, or getting very liter- liberal with their definitions of abuse, and rates of violent crimes are- Indeed, provably higher on reservations, [00:32:00] and it’s clear both generally and per Canadian homicide statistics about indigenous Canadians that most violence committed against people are committed within communities, not by outsiders.

[00:32:11] So in fairness to these Native groups, not all members of the MMIWG2S community gaslight about the perpetrators of violence. Or they might... I, I’ve noticed that on some of the same websites where they, like, broadly imply that this is due to European Spanish colonialism and, like, racism or whatever they also say things like, well, the National Indigenous Women’s Resource Center, which is one of the prominent Native-led anti-violence and MMIW advocacy organizations, publishes materials calling for accountability for offenders in tribal communities.

[00:32:48] I think that’s interesting because outside tribal communities, it’s generally considered that, like You can call the police and, you know, I don’t know, like get custody, divorce, like actually kind of, you know, call for accountability. Yeah. Anyway, their guidance discusses coordinated responses to indi- individual offender cases, sanctions and re-education for batterers, and community systems that hold people who abuse accountable.

[00:33:17] Which to me sounds kind of like a super low bar, and I thought that we already kind of did that in society, but maybe reservations are different. So I thought that was really interesting.

[00:33:28] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and, and that is interesting. It’s like, yeah, let’s, let’s if, if somebody is abusing, we’re- what we should be fighting for is

[00:33:36] Simone Collins: having them prosecuted Is telling them to stop.

[00:33:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. What? This is so far behind- Tell them to stop ... where the rest of the United States has been.

[00:33:44] Simone Collins: Yeah, what are, what are they doing now? I

[00:33:47] Malcolm Collins: don’t, And by the way, speaking of gaslighting, you know, it’s, it’s recently come out that that whole thing that we grew up hearing about how the Native children were took from their families in Canada and put- Oh

[00:33:56] in these schools where they were, like, mass killed and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then they did recent, like, archeological investigations at the sites and everything looking for the graves and everything like that, and they basically found out it was completely fabricated.

[00:34:07] Simone Collins: Yeah, the graves weren’t there

[00:34:08] Malcolm Collins: that there, there were instances of attempting to, you know, quote-unquote bring them to civilization- Civilize, yeah ... educate them and stuff like that. But what this looked like is, like, let’s teach them to read. Let’s teach them our language. Let’s help them integrate, right? Like- Mm-hmm ... which is broadly what we do with, like, Muslims in most of Europe now, right?

[00:34:27] Like, now, because they were boarding schools, it was slightly different, but it looks like all of these cases of abuse and stuff like that, they’re just not substantiated by the record, which shows how much people have twisted the record.

[00:34:39] Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, one, and compare that to the way that many young American Indian, Alaska Native, whatever, indigenous people experienced just among their own tribes especially due to the violence they were subject to with tribal raids.

[00:34:55] When Sacagawea was kidnapped she, she and a bunch of other little girls were kidnapped. Men and women were killed during the raid, and also a bunch of young boys. So young boys that she grew up with were just killed. And so I, I imagine that, like, what was freaking out a lot of people who wanted to build a better world for all the humans they encountered were like, “Oh, dude, these kids are either being killed or sold into sex slavery.

[00:35:20] Could we, like, do something about this? What if we put them in board-” Like, I, I don’t know the situation in Canada. I look mostly at, at just America-based tribes when I was doing this research. But I’m just saying, like, I don’t imagine that the, the raiding environment, just given the dynamics of basically if there’s anyone raiding, basically soon all w- e- everyone who survives is gonna be raiding just to stay alive or at least defending themselves violently.

[00:35:44] Yeah. Anyway, I, I’m not defending tribal schools or whatever, or re-education programs, but I also fully

[00:35:51] Malcolm Collins: understand why people would do that Yeah. No, I’m, I’m actually against it, but I think that I’m against it for the reason of, I think if somebody’s from a different culture and they do not want to integrate with your culture...

[00:35:57] Now, obviously this was different in the case of Native Americans [00:36:00] because it was us coming into their lands. Yeah. But in general, like you just shouldn’t have them in the country, right?

[00:36:05] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:36:06] Yeah. But also, I just wanna add the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women, also related to some, some other organizations, advocates really strongly for involving, they, they want to... Sorry. They frame the movement, the MMIWG movement, as involving domestic violence and sexual assault and trafficking and homicide while supporting survivor services and accountability in native communities. So that same group that I, I quoted at the beginning of, of this discussion that was like, “Oh, this is due to white European settler colonialism,” is all like, “Well, okay, part of the solution is we need to encourage

[00:36:47] Malcolm Collins: tribal-” By the way,

[00:36:48] Simone Collins: j- just to

[00:36:49] Malcolm Collins: understand the amount you are gaslit about Native Americans and everything like that, have you ever heard about the incident of the smallpox blankets?

[00:36:57] And everyone’s like-

[00:36:58] Simone Collins: Yeah, that never happened, right? “Oh,

[00:36:59] Malcolm Collins: yeah, this is so evil, that they gave them smallpox blankets.” Th- this, this happened during the French and Indian War at Fort Pitt, or Potomac’s War, more specifically. Fort Pitt during Potomac’s War. Mm-hmm. And the, the Potomac’s forces had killed a, a, p- settlers outside the fort, including women and children.

[00:37:20] They had raided other places, killing civilians, women and children in multiple areas. And the fort was under siege when this was being discussed, and it wasn’t even... Was it carried out?

[00:37:32] Simone Collins: I remember my broad conclusion from some historical account of that was like, oh, it wasn’t... There didn’t happen or it wasn’t what I thought it was.

[00:37:39] Yeah.

[00:37:39] Malcolm Collins: Maybe- I knew there was only two blankets is what it was. But like, then we’re- Look,

[00:37:43] Simone Collins: two blankets can go a long way,

[00:37:44] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but we’re told that this is like this major horrible thing that they did when we’re not told they were besieged in a fort by a group that had already wiped out the women, children, and babies of multiple other settlements, and they had no other way out, right?

[00:37:58] And we’re just like, “Oh, it’s so sad.” Th- this group that was outside was baby killers. They, they had already done that. That is where we were when that happened, right? Like, this is... It, it’s just so... Like, the, the one that really got me was when you told me about the Cherokees ‘cause I always thought of like, well, at least the Trail of Tears was us just being a******s.

[00:38:19] And then I learned that actually the reason why the Trail of Tears was as bad as it was is because the Cherokee chief at the time gave out all, all the contracts for managing the removal of his, of his people- Many of the

[00:38:28] Simone Collins: contracts with

[00:38:29] Malcolm Collins: his family

[00:38:30] Simone Collins: members ...

[00:38:30] Malcolm Collins: to his family members, and they stole hundreds of thousands, at, at the time, dollars.

[00:38:34] I mean, a lot of money. Well,

[00:38:34] Simone Collins: they yeah, I mean, it, they enriched themselves. They could have, they could have probably done more to supply the, the, the settlements that they were, that they were leaving. That

[00:38:43] Malcolm Collins: the reason it was so bad was because of graft from within the community, and like, we’re just not, we’re not told why the settlers acted in this way.

[00:38:51] We’re not told the, the other sides of these stories, and I just,

[00:38:55] Simone Collins: it- Well, and it seems like every time we, we try to preserve native cultures, which, yeah, just, I don’t know It, we, we end up causing more harm within those cultures But like I

[00:39:07] Malcolm Collins: don’t need, I don’t need, you know, Celtic culture preserved,

[00:39:11] Simone Collins: right?

[00:39:11] Like No, you really don’t. If Celtic culture involves- Put it in a

[00:39:14] Malcolm Collins: museum ...

[00:39:15] Simone Collins: violence and, and killing children and women, and

[00:39:19] Malcolm Collins: dude, like get the f**k- And normalizing SA and normalizing abduction, which apparently we’re seeing in these communities, normalizing corrupt governments, right? Like, well, maybe we should be pushing back against that.

[00:39:27] And, and no, it did, and I’m glad that the Celtic, that, that my ancestors joined a different cultural group.

[00:39:35] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, like literally this, this is where I really struggle with this. But like if native cultures are systematically producing trafficking and assault and violence, those cultures need overhauls.

[00:39:48] It’s not like, they’re, they’re toxic cultures. We should stop putting Vaseline on the lens through which we view native, indigenous, whatever cultures, and just collectively [00:40:00] agree they suck and either need to shape up or ship out. And even women or, or leaders within this movement are saying that, and then being systematically ignored by anyone who has the ability to help them.

[00:40:11] They’re like, “Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes,” but like not doing anything. So in short, I’m kind of, this is horri- but I’m, I’m kind of glad

[00:40:20]

[00:40:23] Simone Collins: this is, this is dark prenatalism. Like this is when you see a culture that is systematically hurting people, that is not producing human flourishing.

[00:40:31] And you see that some people are getting out and shifting to other cultures and other ways and no longer identifying as that old culture. And at first when we got into this movement, I was like, “This is a tragedy. We can’t let this happen.” But I’m realizing now that that, that’s an inherently evil view.

[00:40:45] It’s the same as like you know how there are those, Very remote tribes in the Amazon- Yeah ... where people are living basically similar to uncontacted tribes. And now that more and more members of those tribes are starting to learn that there are cities and that there’s antibiotics, like, these tribes are disappearing, and there’s all these researchers who are like, “This is a travesty.”

[00:41:04] And you’re like, “Wait, what? So what do you actually want? You want these people to not have antibiotics, to die, like, 30 years younger?” What?

[00:41:11] Malcolm Collins: To die, their children to die of things that they could have fixed.

[00:41:14] Simone Collins: To die as children. And you know what? These tribes also raid other tribes and kill people all the time.

[00:41:19] And so what- I love

[00:41:20] Malcolm Collins: how it’s, like, illegal if it’s an uncontacted tribe. Like,

[00:41:23] Simone Collins: yeah. Yeah. Oh, yes. Let’s study it. It’s fine.

[00:41:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah like, ‘cause I- I’ll read anthropology papers about these tribes. And there was one where they were talking about how a guy didn’t like the woman’s kid w- and he just beat him- Yeah

[00:41:36] to death against a tree for no... He’s like- Yeah ... like, a little kid. And he’s the, he’s the hunter of the tribe, so, like, he gets to do what he wants, and- Yeah ... the woman couldn’t do anything about it. No. And the tribe just had to go on living like that. No jail time ‘cause, oh, no, they get, they get to live in their special way.

[00:41:49] And this woman wouldn’t wanna live like that.

[00:41:51] Simone Collins: Yeah. And again, this is not- And then there was another tribe- This is, again, this, and this, you’re talking about a, a completely different region, completely different culture. This is what you get in the absence of civilization. This is not a racial thing. This is not a...

[00:42:03] Look, look, like, our ancestors did stuff like this too. Yeah, you get this

[00:42:06] Malcolm Collins: in, in our ancestors. You get this in Africa. You get this in South America. You

[00:42:10] Simone Collins: get this- Yeah, this is, this is a, a toxic culture that hurts people. We have alternatives now It’s

[00:42:17] Malcolm Collins: not a f*****g profit, Tristan But I remember another one that really got me.

[00:42:18] It’s they’re studying the people, and they’re like, “Well, you’ve gotta kill a man before you’re, you’re eligible to be married,” right? Like, this is what men had to do before they’re eligible for wives. And the researchers were like, “Oh, fascinating. Fascinating.” Fu- f- gonna arrest these people. What are you talking about?

[00:42:33] Simone Collins: Well, and then, you know, and then, like you said, like you pointed out, there’s that recent, like, viral TikTok thing where she, like, does this meme, and then it- she’s dead, you know, because we couldn’t figure out the jurisdictions, ‘cause in tribal lands. I, I just c- I can’t. Super sick of it. Really, really mad.

[00:42:47] Really angry. And this, yeah, this was my introduction to Matt Walsh content. Thanks, Matt Walsh. You ruined Sacagawea and everything else for me.

[00:42:57] Malcolm Collins: And if you wanna hear the stuff about the Comanches, which we won’t repeat in this one- Mm-mm.

[00:43:00] Simone Collins: Mm-mm ...

[00:43:01] Malcolm Collins: because it’s truly terrifying- Mm-hmm ... see our episode on-

[00:43:04] Simone Collins: No, just, no.

[00:43:05] Literally, if, if you... ‘Cause this is a, a woman’s written account of her experience which of course, if you, like, look at how people couch it, they were like, “Well, this is a very one-sided story of someone who was held hostage.”

[00:43:17] Malcolm Collins: Okay.

[00:43:17] Simone Collins: Imagine.

[00:43:18] Malcolm Collins: Imagine if you said that about a Native American,

[00:43:21] Simone Collins: right? Like the- I know, I know, I know.

[00:43:23] But anyway, look up Rachel Parker Plummer. That’s all you need to do. You can look up, like, hostage account or Comanche Rachel Parker Plummer. Don’t, if you if you’re, especially if you’re a woman and/or someone who, who becomes kind of, like, ruined for long periods of time if they hear about harm that befell babies at any time in human history, which I’m one of those people- Don’t look this up, and just do everything you can to support thriving cultures that treat people- And I also want to point out- And raise them well.

[00:43:59] [00:44:00] Support anything that protects the development cu- and cultivation of civilization. And we are kind of faltering a little bit as a society now. We’re reaching this point where there’s kind of this huge unsaid debate in, in humanity of like, “Oh, the rule of law, that’s kind of, like, for losers, right? Like, we shouldn’t be enforcing laws right now.”

[00:44:20] Like there’s a famous case right now about this, this man who keeps going out and filming himself beating women, just, like, s- stranger women, people he doesn’t know, which is of course a statistical less statistically off common. His family has repeatedly tried to get this man put away begged judges because he’s a repeat offender for this kind of thing.

[00:44:41] What jurisdiction is this? What ethnic groups are involved in this? I’m not gonna name his ethnicity because I’m already going on a spree against one ethnicity, and that’s not good. Okay,

[00:44:51] Malcolm Collins: so you

[00:44:52] Simone Collins: won’t, you won’t- You can put it up to your imagination or just look it up on X or anywhere else on the news.

[00:44:58] Just, like, man who films himself beating women. You’re gonna find it. But no, his family has begged for this man to be put away. He’s not been put away. Why are we not enforcing laws anymore? Look, you put an ice cream away. Well,

[00:45:10] Malcolm Collins: what I also point out, when you talk about our own ancestors acting in, when they were the Picts and stuff like this, they acted genuinely savage, right?

[00:45:16] But when they Christianized and we talk about the reivers or the backwards people and we talk about them getting in these bloody fights, ripping out people’s eyeballs, stuff like this, it was always two consenting adults, right? Like, in the stories- ... that have been passed down to us, it is- It

[00:45:29] Simone Collins: was civilized

[00:45:31] Malcolm Collins: it was two men getting in an argument over whose horse is better. Okay. Whose wife is better. Something like that is how it always starts. Mm-hmm. It’s never, “I took someone’s baby.” In fact, we don’t have, as I’ve pointed out, a single documented case from this culture anywhere in the historical record anywhere of a grape happening of a captive person.

[00:45:49] Which is, which is pretty wild considering all the other stories we have about them. Like, if, if one had happened, somebody would have wrote about it, somebody, at least slanderously, right? You know, the other people- Mm-hmm ... documented all their bad things all the time. They’re... And what I point out here is there is, like, scales of civilizational like, restrainment and evil

[00:46:09] And we can... I, I actually don’t mind. I think if you have a civilization with extreme violence between consenting adults, like I’m, I’m actually totally okay with that. Whatever. Like, I, I don’t see that as particularly bad. If, if, if that’s where the United States goes, if that’s where certain cultures- Consenting adults

[00:46:23] Simone Collins: in the United

[00:46:24] Malcolm Collins: States go- Okay, fine. Fine ... whatever. Fine. But like I’m, I’m okay with bringing the gladiators back. That, that could be entertaining. Like, whatever. Well, th-

[00:46:30] Simone Collins: yeah, but Roman gladiators were largely not consenting.

[00:46:34] Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah, if you did it in a consenting way where it’s like people- Sure

[00:46:36] signing up for it. I mean, is that not what sports are these days when you look at people

[00:46:41] Simone Collins: who are in fighting? No, that, that is literally what sports are. Yeah, especially contact sports. It’s, it’s already something we know and love, so.

[00:46:43] Malcolm Collins: Ho- honest- honestly, I think if we, we came back with like actual gladiators today, it would be like less immoral than the Olympic gymnastics where it’s like teenage girls were doing this too.

[00:46:53] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, o- obviously. Like all the, all the, the child sports stuff is, is pretty-

[00:46:58] ...

[00:46:58] Simone Collins: Dubious.

[00:46:58] Malcolm Collins: But l- like that I’m like, “We, we should probably ban that.” Ban, ban the Ol- Olympic gymnastics. And I, I would pr- I would say no Olympic gymnastics. Just off, off. Or just

[00:47:07] Simone Collins: just age, a- age minimums I think is, is a little more important.

[00:47:11] Malcolm Collins: No, because then they’d still start training at ultra-young ages. God,

[00:47:13] Simone Collins: you’re right.

[00:47:15] Malcolm Collins: You’re, you’re ruining somebody’s life for something so trivial.

[00:47:18] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:47:18] Malcolm Collins: And, and the things that they go through, like going through their sets with broken legs and stuff like this, it’s like Jesus

[00:47:24] Simone Collins: Yeah

[00:47:25] Malcolm Collins: I, I can’t-

[00:47:26] Simone Collins: Anyway, though, yeah, it’s, but anyway, i- if you care, if you care about humanity thriving, you care about civilization of, and rule of law, I think. I think this is u- underrated. And I’m, I’m reading the, I think

[00:47:38] Malcolm Collins: we need to stop pointlessly glorifying the ancestry of specific groups of people that were... Like I- I’m okay with glorifying the ancestry of groups that actually did a lot for civilization, right?

[00:47:51] Like, that aren’t my

[00:47:52] Simone Collins: own people. Yeah, but celebrate incremental improvements. Don’t celebrate just like, I don’t know, what you think you used to be.

[00:47:59] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And [00:48:00] I think that the way that the urban monoculture relates to identity is forcing Native American groups and cultures into these really sort of, you know, round the fences positions that are really deleterious for the people living in them.

[00:48:15] Well,

[00:48:15] Simone Collins: look, it’s clearly not working for them when you look at rates of poverty, not to mention the violence and abuse, but also extremely low fertility rates. High fertility rates in modern times come from cultures who are proud of who they are, who are thriving, who feel like they’re in a good position to raise kids well, and also who themselves experienced such great childhoods that they wanna pass that on.

[00:48:38] We’re s- getting a pretty strong signal from N- American Indians and Alaska Natives that you know what? They maybe didn’t get such a great upbringing. They maybe don’t feel like they’ve been set up to thrive. They maybe don’t feel like they are super excited to pass on their culture to anyone. And that

[00:48:54] Malcolm Collins: requires to fix not just grants, which is what they always ask for, more money for the agencies, more money for the programs.

[00:48:59] Well, that

[00:48:59] Simone Collins: means the culture is broken. The culture is broken.

[00:49:02] Malcolm Collins: Well, that destroys them. We’ve talked about the long-term intergenerational effects of UBI, right? Like, nothing does more to damage a culture than that. Yeah. When we look at the Sam Altman study and you gave people $1,000 for a, a month at, for three years, and the people who were given this money had less money than people who weren’t.

[00:49:17] Yeah. Now imagine if you did that not for a three-year period, but intergenerationally. Imagine the effects are cumulative. This is where you see things in some of these groups, where you see unemployment rates of like 45%.

[00:49:28] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, clearly the things that have been done to Indigenous Americans since American colonialism hit aren’t great.

[00:49:37] But-

[00:49:38] Malcolm Collins: But I think we oversell the extent to tho- of those things that are exclusively the fault of the outsiders rather than their own leadership.

[00:49:49] Simone Collins: Yeah. A, a, an extremely damaging, it’s an, an extremely damaging culture that has, has, has not been permitted to progress. We allowed our own cultures largely to progress.

[00:50:01] And, and stopping a culture intentionally from doing that, putting them in a literal reservation, a little human zoo where they are just left to stagnate is- It, it’s,

[00:50:14] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, even consider this from the perspective of European culture. Imagine if I said, “I want to do and live and treat my wife and family and, and practice my religion the way we did in colonial America.”

[00:50:26] Most people would be like that’s gonna be, like, super toxic, bro.” But, like, we’re trapping their culture at that stage. We’re not letting it evolve.

[00:50:35] Simone Collins: Yeah. I, yeah, and I, I think we kind of... I, I probably had inklings of this before. You know, I didn’t. I didn’t allow myself to think about this until I read about Rachel’s, or I heard about Rachel’s account first and then Mel- Matt Walsh thing, and then read about it and, and then I was like, “You know what?

[00:50:50] No.” ‘Cause if you come for an infant, if you hurt an infant, you’re going to hell.

[00:50:56] Malcolm Collins: I mean, if you’re, if you’re regularly practicing smex slavery, like, that’s, that’s, a, a- and that’s not a good thing. That’s something that, that was popular in many of these regions, as we’ve seen from the historic accounts.

[00:51:09] And obviously, if you can’t address it, the way they used to do things needs to be changed or was downright diabolically evil. They, it can’t be addressed.

[00:51:20] Simone Collins: Yeah, and you don’t hurt babies. I don’t care who you are. I don’t care how much I’ve previously loved anyone, you hurt babies. If I am equipped with means of ending your life abruptly, I will do it.

[00:51:31] Simone, it

[00:51:31] Malcolm Collins: is very, very important that you do not study historic or modern African culture.

[00:51:37] Simone Collins: I will not. I will not. Look, there’s a lot of history I just am not allowed to learn ever since I had... Look, before I had kids, this didn’t affect me. So there, like, mama bear syndrome, I cannot e- describe this to you.

[00:51:52] Like, it’s, you know how, like, the most dangerous animal you could possibly encounter is a mama bear with babies? [00:52:00] Because she will... Like, that’s a, it’s like a hormonal thing. The, it’s, it should be, it should be given a strange Latin medical diagnosis because it, it is, like, the most... It, I have felt it more severe than any other form of diagnosis than I have ever been given.

[00:52:18] Like, ever. And I’m talking, like, other medical conditions. Like, you have scarlet fever, which yes, I did have. No, I didn’t feel scarlet fever as bad as I have felt mama bear syndrome. It is really something, so. You hurt babies, you go. You’re out. Bye-bye.

[00:52:39] Malcolm Collins: I love you, Simone. American Indians. Bye ... and, and yeah, I had always thought that this was funny when they’re like, “This group is undergoing so much violence.”

[00:52:47] And it’s like w- well, usually-

[00:52:49] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, I mean, I think anyone who hears it is like, “Well, wait, I thought that, like, almost...” Like, I think I actually just read randomly, unrelated to this, this episode, which I researched a couple days back, like, just another, like, “Well, 96% of sexual violence comes from a known partner.”

[00:53:05] I’m like, “Huh.”

[00:53:07] Malcolm Collins: Well, I just, I... I’ll, I’ll tell you honestly what I imagined when I first heard this statistic, and I don’t know why this image popped in my head.

[00:53:13] Simone Collins: No.

[00:53:13] Malcolm Collins: Is I thought it was Native Ameri- I think because they showed, like, an a, a video clip of this at one point when I was younger and they were doing it, is Native American women hitchhiking and then being picked up by white drivers.

[00:53:25] That, that’s, that’s what was, that’s who was doing this. ‘Cause that’s the video I think they used to show for, like, this sort of violence on, like, Canadian whatever, like,

[00:53:34] Simone Collins: Is this some PSA you saw as a kid?

[00:53:35] Malcolm Collins: No. I don’t know. I saw this PSA. Other people can tell me where I maybe got this image from, but, like, every time I heard that statistic, that’s what I assumed.

[00:53:42] I was like it’s white-”

[00:53:44] Simone Collins: The hitchhiking ... “

[00:53:44] Malcolm Collins: people picking up hitchhikers.” The hitchhiking. And then, and then I thought about it from, like, a more base perspective, and I was like, “What the... Obviously, it’s not.”

[00:53:55] Simone Collins: You’ve done a lot of hitchhiking. I’ve never hitchhiked. I, I, I... Look, I was extremely risky in my travel choices as a young woman traveling solo, but I did not hitchhike, and you hitchhiked your way across Europe by yourself, sleeping in ditches on the side of the road.

[00:54:13] I, I can’t believe that we’re still alive. It’s kind of a Christmas miracle. Really goes to show that the vast majority of humans out there are good people. Mm-hmm. But again, in, in, in a small tribal environment- Well, no ... all it takes is one- It depends on where

[00:54:27] Malcolm Collins: you are. No. There was the case of the woman who decided to prove that we’re all the same, who was gonna hitchhike across Europe and the Middle East, and she was found raped to death within 10 miles of hitting the first Muslim majority country.

[00:54:39] Like, this, the, the cultures aren’t the same. They’re different, and if you pretend you are the same, you’re going to victimize the people who you force to live under the same laws- Mm-hmm ... when the, the underlying cultural group is different. Like, how can we understand that, like, w- one culture is different, it should be preserved, and it’s like, well, okay, if they’re different- Those cultures have got to go

[00:54:57] it should be preserved, and then how are they different? Even

[00:54:59] Simone Collins: the Old Testament is so freaking clear about this. Like, mm-mm. You don’t... That’s, you don’t do that. It’s not, no, no. Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

[00:55:09] All right.

[00:55:11] Malcolm Collins: Anyway, the, the spicy episode. Again,

[00:55:13] Simone Collins: I, I- Yeah. So here’s, here’s the little s- Yeah, I’m never gonna be able to run for political office again, and I’m so freaking happy about it.

[00:55:19] I’m never doing that again.

[00:55:20] Malcolm Collins: No,

[00:55:20] Simone Collins: I

[00:55:20] Malcolm Collins: think th- that- That was,

[00:55:21] Simone Collins: that was so awful. Ugh, I hated that so much. I hated every second of

[00:55:25] Malcolm Collins: it ... the, the, the key point here is we’re not making any sort of ethnic claims here. No, we’re not. We’re saying, we’re, we’re not making even a, a, a claim that we’re from a culturally superior group.

[00:55:35] Simone Collins: We’re not.

[00:55:35] Malcolm Collins: Like, we’re making a claim

[00:55:37] Simone Collins: that- Like, literally saying

[00:55:39]

[00:55:42] Simone Collins: is trash and needs to go and is backward and abusive is, is political suicide. Thank

[00:55:49] Malcolm Collins: you. No, the part that it is in the same way our own ancestors were, just everybody knows not to venerate the

[00:55:54] Simone Collins: ancestors. No, but it’s okay because we’re white, so of course we were saved and we’re normal.

[00:55:56] Yeah, it’s oh,

[00:55:57] Malcolm Collins: of course the Celts were evil. Yeah. ‘

[00:55:58] Simone Collins: Cause we’re, we’re [00:56:00] Europeans. There. But the point

[00:56:03] Malcolm Collins: I’m making here is we’re not making a unique claim about them. We’re making a claim about people within this stage of the civilization

[00:56:08] Simone Collins: as a- Well, yeah, we’re making a, a claim about civilization and the, the huge lack of good morals it takes to, to literally impede, to retard a group of people, a culture from a- adapting to more civilized formats when given the opportunity.

[00:56:30] They have had... Th- th- things could have gone so differently and they, they, it’s really unfortunate that, that they, they didn’t

[00:56:42] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well and, and, and, and keep in mind even when you look ... Well anyway, great episode Simone. I’m glad that you looked into this and I’m surprised to see you so radicalized on this particular topic.

[00:56:55] I might cut

[00:56:56] Simone Collins: out this- No, babies. Ba- no. The, babies. You hurt babies, you’re gone. It does not matter who you are. Does not matter who you are. You’re gone. Straight to jail. Okay, so the

[00:57:06] Malcolm Collins: Comanche story is what got you? Okay.

[00:57:08] Simone Collins: Yeah. No I’ll do ... Comanches, foom They go, “Mm-mm.”

[00:57:17] Malcolm Collins: All right, Simone. It’s been good talking with you.

[00:57:20] And I will have to heavily edit this to make sure it’s appropriate for YouTube- ... and doesn’t share too much, you know, information. But I think it is directionally a useful correction in terms of how we think about things as a society so that we can actually begin to address these issues, rather than using them as cudgels for politics against groups that they’re really not related to.

[00:57:43] Simone Collins: Yeah. And thank you for your tactful editing. I think it came out when the Chris Williamson roundtable came out and someone else was editing my statements. People were like, “I thought Malcolm was the crazy one.” Ah. “What? It turns out Simone is the unhinged person all along,” because I didn’t have you to make me look less like an inhuman monster.

[00:58:09] So thank you, dear husband, for everything that you do to keep me- Thanks for the

[00:58:14] Malcolm Collins: editing job you’ve given me on this one.

[00:58:17] Simone Collins: You can... Look, I stand by everything I say It’s true

[00:58:26] Malcolm Collins: Okay. What are we... Steak for dinner, right? Or did we forget to take it out?

[00:58:29] Simone Collins: It’s, it’s fine, but it’s gonna take it’s gonna take some, some time to thaw.

[00:58:33] It was in the deep freezer.

[00:58:34] Malcolm Collins: Oh, okay. Well, what are the kids having?

[00:58:36] Simone Collins: You can make glo- we can do gyoza lasagna. We can do that sweet pork rib- Oh, can I do

[00:58:42] Malcolm Collins: quesadillas?

[00:58:44] Simone Collins: Oh, with your new cheese?

[00:58:47] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[00:58:48] Simone Collins: Yeah. If I’m doing cheese, do you want me to just do queso instead?

[00:58:55] Malcolm Collins: No, let’s do quesadillas.

[00:58:57] Simone Collins: You want a quesadilla tonight?

[00:58:58] Mm. So it shall be. I love you.

[00:59:04] Yeah. Okay. I love you.

[00:59:08] Malcolm Collins: I love you too.

[00:59:08] Simone Collins: Thank you for tolerating my extreme levels of hatred.

[00:59:12] Bye. Bye.

[00:59:15] Malcolm Collins: Sorry, Simone. That was... It, it looks like it’s about to rain. It,

[00:59:20] Simone Collins: it will. We’re gonna have a thunderstorm

[00:59:23] Malcolm Collins: at any time. Okay. That would not have been... ‘Cause that took a long time to move in.

[00:59:26] Simone Collins: Oh.

[00:59:26] Was it two-

[00:59:27] Malcolm Collins: Four large boxes.

[00:59:29] Simone Collins: Oh my gosh.

[00:59:30] Malcolm Collins: And a toy it looks like, that you got somebody a toy, a stuffy?

[00:59:34] Simone Collins: The axolotls came.

[00:59:35] Yeah. Where are they now? The children cannot see them.

[00:59:38] Malcolm Collins: They’re on the table downstairs- In the sunroom ...

[00:59:40] Simone Collins: in

[00:59:40] Malcolm Collins: their bag.

[00:59:41] Simone Collins: In the sunroom.

[00:59:42] Malcolm Collins: In the sunroom?

[00:59:43] Simone Collins: Okay. Just had to make sure.

[00:59:45] Look, Tosi, he earned it for playing crime scene cleanup with me, so yeah, that’s... And, and Titan will earn the second one if she puts the Magna-Tiles away every day for a week after playing with them.

[00:59:59] ‘Cause [01:00:00] typically she just leaves them out on the table that we need to eat food. Just a giant pile of toys Anyway,

[01:00:12] Malcolm Collins: So what’s really cool, and I didn’t notice this until I was going through the story and I’m so excited to run this tracked episode-

[01:00:20] Simone Collins: Oh, gosh ...

[01:00:20] Malcolm Collins: is I decided to take all of the numbers from the...

[01:00:24] Because if you notice, there’s something very strange about that list of, Names ... so and so begot so and so begot so and so begot so and so.

[01:00:34] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.

[01:00:34] Malcolm Collins: In the early list in the Bible. You might not have known this because I think a lot of people turn off the moment they get to one of those. Yeah.

[01:00:41] But it lists the age of the parent when the child was born.

[01:00:47] Simone Collins: Yeah, and like, whoever it is, I’m sorry, who is the, the 12 kids of Israel, did it, like, in a span of six years at age, like, 80-something. So it’s kinda weird, right?

[01:01:01] Malcolm Collins: So, well, no, but what that allows you to do that a normal genealogy with birth and death ages wouldn’t, is construct an exact timeline.

[01:01:12] Y- you see, normally, if it was a normal genealogy and you just had age lived, right?

[01:01:18] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.

[01:01:20] Malcolm Collins: Hold on. I’m actually asking right now. Yeah, genealogies, ancient and modern- We’ll, we’ll go into it more when we do the episode on it. Yeah, it’s done literally nowhere else in the Bible or in any any Mesopotamian records that we have.

[01:01:34] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[01:01:35] Malcolm Collins: Nobody records the age of the parent at the birth of the kid. But what, what that does is... Do you understand what I mean when I say it allows you to create an exact timeline?

[01:01:44] Simone Collins: No. I don’t, I don’t.

[01:01:46] Malcolm Collins: Okay. So if you just had a list of names and how long they lived- Mm-hmm ... and I was trying to map that to a civilizational growth or something like that, or a number of distinct populations, you wouldn’t actually have a timeline because you don’t know if somebody lives 800 years, when did they have their kid, right?

[01:02:05] So all you can do is, you, well, you can’t put them back to back because then you’re gonna get a timeline that’s way too long. So you just have to make, like, a huge guess. But if you know the age of they were when the kid started to exist, and then you know the kid that lived X long and then had a kid, and you know they lived X long and then had a kid- Mm

[01:02:22] you can create a full timeline of events that lasts- Mm ... 1,000, multiple thousand years. And then we can take that timeline, and if we use Catalhoyuk’s founding as the start of the timeline, which was my hypothesized E like the story in the Adam and Eve story you get an exact timeline where nine of the births and deaths match exact major historic events within very short windows, like decades-long windows over a period of thousands of years.

[01:02:55] And what’s weirder is at the end you get another interpretation of what the flood could be which is while the flood is real and a separate event that I think happened at a separate time I think what we’re seeing here is a change in civilization being noted. Mm ... and this is when we have the, the largest change from, well, really in the way humans lived from agriculture until like full civilization systems was at exactly this point where the Noah story takes place.

[01:03:28] Hmm ... which I was really shocked about. I like, I like going into these things and being like, there is no way that that’s chance. That’s absolutely crazy just to plug in the numbers and see if they match anything.

[01:03:38] Simone Collins: That’s so cool. That is so cool. No. Okay. Save, save, save the rest for the episode. I’m super excited for this.

[01:03:44] Okay. I, I hope we’re gonna record it soon. Okay we’ll get into mine. We only have a little bit of time to record this, so just let me talk a little bit to begin with to fit stuff in and then, then start joining in.

[01:03:55] Malcolm Collins: Okay, Simone.

[01:03:57] Simone Collins: Okay.

[01:03:59] Speaker 5: [01:04:00] Rubble’s house? Yes. Can you believe you built something so big by yourself? Yeah

[01:04:14] Speaker 7: Maybe you need to be creative, Tosi Torso in. Torso in. Mommy! We’ll have to use the magnets now

In this Based Camp Tract, Malcolm and Simone Collins tackle one of their most provocative religious questions: What does it actually mean to be “human” in God’s view?

They dig into classic Genesis puzzles—Cain’s fear of being killed, the sudden appearance of his wife, the city of Enoch, and the strange language of Romans 5:12-14—and argue that the Bible may not treat every Homo sapiens as a full moral agent. Drawing on a techno-puritan reading, they place the Adam and Eve story at the dawn of moral accountability and civilization roughly 10,000 years ago near the Tigris-Euphrates, link it to the sudden explosion of human development, and explore what this means for death, the Tree of Life, pre-Adamite populations, and the difference between biological humans and those God holds accountable.

Along the way they examine traditional explanations (incest, rapid population growth, pure allegory), Isaac La Peyrère’s pre-Adamite theory, Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2, early urban death rituals, God’s treatment of groups like the Egyptians and Canaanites, and modern implications—including NPCs, civilizational decline, and fertility collapse as a kinder “second flood.”

A spicy, wide-ranging conversation about moral agency, civilization, and what the Bible might be saying about who counts as fully human.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Simone, I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we might be doing one of our most offensive religious episodes, because it’s a thought that came to me so for people who like sort of Bible mysteries one of the ones that most people are broadly aware of as like a fun little rabbit hole to go into is it appears from the perspective of Genesis that there were other humans around at the time of Cain and Abel.

[00:00:31] Mm-hmm. So four lines that suggest this. Genesis 4:14, “Whoever finds me will kill me.” If only Adam’s immediate family existed, who would pose a threat to Cain afterwards? ‘Cause he’s saying this to God. Cain’s wife she appears, but isn’t given a genealogy. Yeah. In, in the Bible, you’re not supposed to sleep with your sister.

[00:00:52] This is, like, one of the rules that God sets up. And it’s never put out that there’s, like, an exception here. Mm-hmm. Now, he was doing this before that law was set out, but that law still would have applied to all of the sons of Ad- kids of Adam and specifically Romans 5:12-14, no matter how you interpret it means it would apply.

[00:01:13] The the city in Genesis 4:17 it mentions Cain building a city, the city of Enoch. Now the word used for city here in ancient Hebrew can mean, like, a fortified collection of dwellings, but it still requires, you know, some people, more people than we are aware of at this time.

[00:01:33] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:01:34] Malcolm Collins: Then, and this is not as seen by people, but we’ll go into it, because then it is actually interesting.

[00:01:38] Some read Genesis 1:26-27, humanity created male and female, as a different event from Genesis 2:7, Adam formed from the dust, and then Eve formed from a rib, right? Then there is Romans 5:12-14. So this isn’t just in the Old Testament where you find this weird stuff. If you go to Romans 5:12-14 and note here I’m also gonna go through all the traditional explanations to try to get around this.

[00:02:04] But the correct explanation I think is so - spicy and I am so excited to drop it, because it makes so many other things make sense.

[00:02:14] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:02:14] As soon as you said this to me I was like, “Ah, of course.” ‘Cause I’m reading Genesis again, or I just read Genesis again and was so confused. Just was like, wait, ‘cause y- all these descendants, you know, so and so and then they had this kid, but then, and then they married so and- like, wait, where did they come from?

[00:02:29] Well, we, we

[00:02:30] Malcolm Collins: could- Yeah ...

[00:02:31] Simone Collins: huh?

[00:02:32] Malcolm Collins: So , if we start here, “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way death came to people because all sinned, to be sure sin was in the world before the law was given. But sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.”

[00:02:54] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:54] Malcolm Collins: “Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a, a pattern of the one to come.” Hmm. So the problem here being is there are two ways to read this both have problems. One is that, well, even though Moses hadn’t handed down the commandments yet, right? You were still capable of sinning before that period, right? That said it doesn’t really make sense in context., If you think about the line as it’s put out here, him pointing out that death entered the earth through sin entering through Adam, then the law he’s talking about here must be the law handed to Adam, right?

[00:03:46] If that’s the case, then it’s implying that people were sinning but without a law, without somebody telling them not to, before Adam came to existence. So I’ll, I’ll read it again so you can see how you can get this [00:04:00] interpretation. “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people because all sinned, to be sure sin was in the world before the law was given.

[00:04:12] But sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is the pattern of the one to come.”

[00:04:28] On rereading, this is by far the weakest of these claims, but this verse is still important because what it lays out is that the rules set out within the mosaic laws are what counted as sin even before those laws were laid out, even if you take the most traditionalist reading of them, which has a lot of importance in just a second

[00:04:48] Malcolm Collins: So That creates a problem, right? If there were other humans around during this period, how did they get there? Mm-hmm. And we’ll, we’ll get to this as well, but what, what do we know about Adam and Eve, first of all? Because if people are aware of the techno-puritan framing around all of this what we generally believe is we think the Bible, and you can watch our episode on this, does a very good job, a, a supernaturally good job of setting out the evolutionary timeline.

[00:05:18] Mm-hmm. Of describing that in a way that a person of that period, a cave Jew, could understand that would make any sort of rational sense to them, that would be able to be transmitted. And then it lays out in the story of Adam and Eve mankind beginning to... Because I, I don’t think that God would actually punish humanity for trying to learn right from wrong.

[00:05:39] That seems psychotic to me. Like it seems like God would want us to know right from wrong, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I point out that we know from the story that that’s not really what Adam was punished for. Because the moment he eats the... Well, he doesn’t eat, touches, which is also important. See our original episode on that if you want us to go deeper on it.

[00:05:58] Or has the intent to disobey God. It’s not even touches. It, it, it’s reaching out for it. It was the intent to disobey God around that fruit that made that fruit important. It was not the fruit itself. The fruit didn’t actually need any magical powers. The fruit was set apart in that it was the only thing that God had made any sort of a ruling around at that point in human history, right?

[00:06:20] Mm-hmm. And, and the thing that Adam did that was special there was to go against what God wanted him to do with that. And I was like, a- and we know this because the first thing that Adam does is tries to clothe himself which doesn’t make any sense. Because it said that he they, they, they...

[00:06:36] God let Adam be naked in the garden. Like, clearly God didn’t think it was a problem. And in nowhere in any Bible, in any Old Testament would any, either in ration or in Christian or Judaic tradition is it sinful to be naked in front of your wife and God. That’s like the very thing you’re supposed to be naked around, right?

[00:06:59] Like, that is not a, a... He’s not like in a city or something, right? Like, so it’s showing that he what is meant by knowledge of good and evil is a knowledge of good and evil in opposition to God’s knowledge of good and evil. Like man thinking that he knows more than God about what is good and evil to the extent that he would do stupid things.

[00:07:23] So the moment Adam gained the capacity to think in terms of morality, like, “This is what I should do, this is what I shouldn’t do,” all of, like, what laws applied to him and made up sin at this point in time,

[00:07:38] that line in Romans tells us it’s the

[00:07:41] mosaic law that would be handed down later.

[00:07:44] So the question is, why didn’t God, like, give Adam a list of the rules, the Mosaic laws, as he was leaving the Garden of Eden? , And I think the answer to this is he thought they were so obvious that any sentient entity, , now that man had [00:08:00] gained true sentience, should have been aware of them. , I mean, they’re, they are really quite basic stuff, like not stealing, not murder, stuff like that.

[00:08:10] , But being aware there is a God, but then worshiping other gods above Him. , But then, , Adam and Eve leave. They have a kid, and right away, the kid goes and kills his brother. And you can tell that these laws are already in effect because God comes down and, , Cain is aware that... You know, he tries to cover it up at first.

[00:08:30] You know, the, , “Am I my brother’s keeper?” and everything like that. He is aware in his heart that he has done something wrong Even though he hasn’t been told the Mosaic laws yet, they’re clearly in some way written in his heart or was in his sentience

[00:08:42] But what we will see, especially later in this episode, is this is not true for all people all over the world. Some people just do not feel an instinct, , well, some Homo sapiens do not feel an instinct that says, you know, torturing babies to death is a bad thing to do, and we should stop anyone attempting to do that

[00:09:01] Malcolm Collins: So the reason why that’s important in sort of our framing is we’re like, “Okay, well, so, that’s it. That’s the first city.” And then we look at where the, the Adam the Garden of Eden is on a map at the mouth waters of the Tigris and the Eu- Euphrates. And the other two rivers, people equate them with modern rivers today, but if you go to the original text, they don’t seem to equate to modern rivers.

[00:09:20] So they really could be anything, and there is only one mouse water through the Tigris and Euphrates, and that’s where the oldest city is that we are aware of, Tell Le Theke. Like, and I was shocked when I saw this, about 10,000 years- Yeah,

[00:09:29] Simone Collins: that was crazy cool ...

[00:09:30] Malcolm Collins: so, so that’s where I would place the story of Adam and Eve, is about 10,000 years ago at this potential location, man first developing his ability to know things in opposition to the type of thing God knows.

[00:09:43] Now, if I’m taking that perspective, and I’m thinking that the story of Genesis 1 is about evolution, and I’m thinking that that this is when mankind begins, this is when sin enters the world, and this is when meaningful death enters the world, right? That means something that I had never considered before, which is, oh, s**t, that means that , , the label of human, biblically speaking, does not apply to all Homo sapiens and that took me down a very interesting rabbit hole of implications.

[00:10:23] And it also would naturally answer the question of where did these other people come from? Hmm. Where did where did Cain’s wife come from, for example? Where did the city come from? Where did the... It, it, it came from the fact that there was lots of homo sapiens around, they just weren’t in the category that we should consider human.

[00:10:44] bullet you pretty much have to bite if you’re going to accept that the Bible is telling true stories and not just parables, or at least trying to tell stories that tell the people of the, that time period, your cave Jews, , what is meaningfully true about reality as best as they could understand. , However, it doesn’t just solve some of the mysteries in the Bible, it also solves some of the mysteries in anthropology.

[00:11:12] Like, how is it possible that humanity or Homo sapiens were around for three hundred thousand years and invented almost nothing, developed almost nothing of a society, advanced almost nothing, and then all of a sudden, ten thousand years ago, , human development begins to explode starting in almost exactly this region?

[00:11:32] Or no, exactly this region

[00:11:34] And it also recontextualizes God. God is not a God of homo sapiens. God is a God of moral agents and innovation, , which I think is a God that I would rather follow, a God that doesn’t just say, “Based on your biology, I am dedicated to you,” but it’s based on your moral capacity, and when you have that moral capacity, I will bless you with the capacity for innovation

[00:11:59] Malcolm Collins: And now the [00:12:00] question comes to this: what does this mean, God, or the Bi- would be biblically within this context or this reading, and I’m gonna go over the other potential explanations for this text, I’m just getting first into the spicy bit that really got me hooked. What then does it mean to be human, right?

[00:12:19] And it appears moral agency and moral responsibility, even if acted in error Adam and Eve acted in error, .

[00:12:32] Adam and at first tried to shirk that error, but God still put moral agency and moral responsibility upon them, something he had done to no homo sapien before this moment. Whether or not you are morally accountable for your actions is not a decision you make. It is a capacity that God decides if you have or do not have.

[00:12:56] Malcolm Collins: Hmm. Which would then mean that if you take this interpretation, it’s not an ethnic thing clearly, right? Like, it, it, it doesn’t appear, they don’t set Adam apart ethnically in any way, right?

[00:13:07] Now some people actually think that Adam was the first Jew, and then all the other people, the Gentiles, were actually made on day seven. We’ll get to the an argument for that in a second, which is interesting. I, I don’t, I don’t think that that’s the case. But but I do think the argument for it is interesting.

[00:13:22] But I would say, no, the thing that seems to set Adam apart in the story is the moral agency expected of him, right? Like- Hmm ... that’s why he’s capable of sinning. That’s why death matters to him, because he is a independent moral agent within reality, and humans before this period, before this individual or this town or whatever is being represented in the story, were not meaningful moral agents.

[00:13:48] And that means that a human who is an NPC, who lives an unexamined life, who doesn’t think through their own moral framework, th- their life may have no more value than the life of an animal.

[00:14:05] Speaker 2: , I don’t wanna shoot nobody. I mean- They’re just robots, Morty. It’s okay to shoot them.

[00:14:09] Yeah, Glenn’s bleeding to death. Someone call his wife and children They’re not robots, Rick It’s a figure of speech, Morty. They’re bureaucrats. I don’t respect them.

[00:14:20] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:14:20] Malcolm Collins: And I, as I’ve thought on this particular topic, I h- y- yeah, maybe. I, I mean, if you don’t actually... If you never ask yourself, like, “Why am I alive?

[00:14:34] Why am I doing all of this? What is good and what is evil?” And I am just acting along with whatever is socially normal around me, striving for status in whatever society I happen to be born into, that puts me at the moral equal of the most evil humans who have existed in human history, right? Because that means that whatever society I was born into, no matter how brutal or evil it was, I would enthusiastically go along with it.

[00:15:06] And if that’s how we’re assigning moral weight to a human life, it is an offensive way to assign moral weight, but it’s an offensive way in the way I like that the Bible’s offensive sometimes. But let’s get deeper into this, because there’s other things about Adam and Eve that then people would be like, “Well, how can you say that Adam and Eve were, you know, at this time, but then, like Eve gives birth to, to all of humanity past that time and everything like that?”

[00:15:36] So we’ll, we’ll get into these. But it, that actually all makes perfect logical sense as well. So, Corinthians 15:45 explicitly calls Adam the first man Adam, who became a living being. So we know that we shouldn’t consider the other types of, of, of humans to be set apart from animals because they, they were, you know, living beings before, but not [00:16:00] in the way that Adam was in this context.

[00:16:01] Note here, if you’re like, “No, no, no, no other animal died before Adam sinned,” that’s a, that’s a really weird addition to add to the Bible. Because, like, you think that would be said somewhere, , but it’s not said anywhere. , And it’s also a weird way of handling it, , from God’s perspective that all other animals are facing the punishment for what man did, but also we wouldn’t even be able to eat them, so which, you know, they were made for us to do.

[00:16:31] So no, it makes a lot more sense to just say things were, quote-unquote, “dying” before this happened. It’s just that the deaths weren’t meaningful enough to be considered in the same category or the same type of thing that would happen to Adam

[00:16:47] I should note here that this isn’t some out there interpretive claim I’m making. This is actually what many traditional creationists believe, is that not only were Adam and Eve vegetarians, but that man didn’t start eating animals until after Noah’s Ark. , Which is a very strange thing to think, because, , pretty much everybody knows that Abel was a herder, and so what was he herding for?

[00:17:11] Why was he making sacrifices if he wasn’t even eating the meat afterwards? But, , like, if that wasn’t part of the practice, why did God make animal skin clothing for Adam and Eve that required killing an animal? Or I guess he could have magicked it onto them, which is, I don’t know, more gruesome.

[00:17:30] , , if they were not eating meat.

[00:17:32] Or I guess you could say, “Well, they were just growing animals for their skins and they just threw out all the meat.” But then it’s like, well, what’s, why did God morally make this rule if you’re still allowed to kill animals for their skin, if you’re raising them but just throwing out the meat or burning it for sacrifices?

[00:17:47] Malcolm Collins: So how do they argue this? Well, the line in the Bible that lays out, you know, the things that you’re allowed to eat, it mentions, specifically things that grow from seeds, and, , that that’s for humans and animals. , But it also says that man has dominion over the fish and the animals and the, and the everything like that, which I think pretty clearly means the right to eat before that is more explicitly given after the flood.

[00:18:15] , But then when you ask them something like, “Why did Abel herd?” They’ll be like, “Oh, it was for, cheese and milk.” And it’s like, well, God didn’t lay that stuff out either, , when you have that, you have the right to eat from things that grow from seeds. , Also, it’s a, it’s a weird and arbitrary restriction from God that isn’t explicitly made or talked about anywhere, but it’s only really accepted to get around this one problem of how did Adam and Eve handle the garden if they weren’t allowed to eat any of the animals in the garden?

[00:18:47] , Because the animals, it would’ve been this horrific, undying phenomenon where the animal’s unable to die, and they just keep eating from... I can’t even. Whoa. , But I think that this solves it much, much more cleanly than that traditional answer

[00:18:59] A note that this mistranslation is really easy to believe if the Bible that you heard growing up or you have memorized is any of the number of English translations that essentially deliberately mistranslate these verses to attempt to make it sound stronger that there was originally a prohibition against meat.

[00:19:18] So an example of that can be if you’re reading from King James Version

[00:19:23] It says, “ And God said, ‘Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all earth, and every tree in which the fruit of the tree is yielding seed. To you it shall be for meat.’” And, , you hear that and go, “Oh, so this is like the meat for the people,” right? Except the actual translation says nothing like that.

[00:19:44] , N- nothing about the word used there in Hebrew means or insinuates meat. , It, it basically says, “To you this shall be food.” , Which would not have you draw a, oh, it’s prohibiting meat intuition from this, especially when the next scene you see [00:20:00] herders. But okay. , And then when people are like, “Well, when Moses got it, God said like, ‘And now you can additionally eat things other than just green stuff.’”

[00:20:10] Because that is the way it’s translated in a lot of things. , For example, in the NIV it’s translated as, “Just as I gave you green plants, now I give you everything.” ,, the “And now I give you everything” is just really an intentional mistranslation to attempt to confuse people, , given their presupposition or to, to believe their interpretation of this.

[00:20:31] If you look at like the closest like direct Hebrew translation that you could look at here, it says, “Every moving thing that is now alive shall be food for you. Like the green plant, I given to you everything.” , So, very clearly this makes it sound like they were always allowed to eat this stuff, if you translate it directly.

[00:20:49] , There is no now, there is no I’m adding, there is no previously it was only plants. Nobody is shocked that now they’re allowed to eat animals, which I think people would be if that had previously been a very big prohibition. , And why would that even be a prohibition? Does God’s morality change in between those two periods?

[00:21:06] , And it doesn’t even, I mean, it doesn’t fit the archeological record at all. , Like we see, , you know, you’d, you’d have to say that like the wooly mammoth hunts happened after the flood, which I mean, I guess you could say, but like I don’t buy that. That, that from the archeological evidence we see doesn’t seem to imply.

[00:21:22] , I mean, I guess you could say, “Oh, these were people living in sin,” or whatever, but I just think this interpretation makes so much more sense and fits with the actual Hebrew a lot better.

[00:21:29] Genesis 25:7 states that God formed the man and there was no man to work the ground before then which is also interesting because if we’re talking about the first cities, it is true that men did not actually really work the ground before the first cities, right? So you had, you had some scattered farming, but this also works really well with Adam.

[00:21:53] One of the things that I noted, and I’ll get into this a bit more in a second, in the story that I thought was really weird, is I had remembered the story of Adam and Eve, is Adam didn’t have to work the ground in I- in the Garden of Eden. Which- Yeah, that

[00:22:06] Simone Collins: was one of the punishments ...

[00:22:08] Malcolm Collins: wrong. He did have to work the ground.

[00:22:09] He, he had to dress and work the ground. He didn’t have to work in the same... We’ll get to what the punishment work was, but he didn’t. But there was another thing. Something helped him work the ground, and I didn’t realize this the last time I was going over it, but it said,

[00:22:22] Simone Collins: well- I thought he was suppo- supposed to just name and take pair- care of the plants,

[00:22:25] Malcolm Collins: but not like- Nope, he had to work the land.

[00:22:26] He had to- Really? ... as I say, like work and dress the land. Yes.

[00:22:29] Simone Collins: Dress it.

[00:22:30] Malcolm Collins: We’ll get to that in a second. But- It said that the water would rise from the ground and cover the land and then leave, right? And that’s how, that’s how the land was watered. The flooding

[00:22:41] Simone Collins: of the Nile.

[00:22:42] Malcolm Collins: At the... Yeah, I had thought, I hadn’t thought about that, but then I was like, wait, that’s how the Ni- that’s how the Egyptians farmed.

[00:22:47] Simone Collins: Yeah, dude.

[00:22:48] Malcolm Collins: Right? And then, and like the super ancient Egyptians farmed. And so then I decided to go to AI and explore, did people of the Tigris and the Euphrates during the period of 10,000 years ago farm with this system? And the answer was, they absolutely did. This is exactly the farming that they would’ve experienced.

[00:23:07] The water raising from the ground, covering the ground, not requiring re- real labor. It’s around the time of Topliotequi that we begin to see unique architectural artifacts of them beginning to dig canals to make this process more efficient.

[00:23:21] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:23:22] Malcolm Collins: So it’s, it’s, it’s moving from a, a hunter-gatherer lifestyle to the lifestyle of a, of a civilized person.

[00:23:29] But to continue. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:35] The, in Genesis 3:20 Eve was the mother of all the living. Now, this gets spicy for people. They go, “Malcolm, Malcolm, Malcolm, if this was the case, okay, if there were other humans around during this time period, surely the, the, that couldn’t have been Eve because all humans today don’t have a common ancestor that recently.”

[00:23:58] And actually the science isn’t there for you. [00:24:00] All humans today, do you know when the last common ancestor is for all humans today?

[00:24:05] Simone Collins: No, actually.

[00:24:07] Malcolm Collins: Only 2,000 to 3,500 years ago.

[00:24:11] Simone Collins: It’s the last common ancestor. Hold on. Hmm.

[00:24:14] Malcolm Collins: Now, this doesn’t make sense to a lot of people, ‘cause they’re like, “Well, but there’s a lot of isolated tribes.

[00:24:19] There’s a lot of, you know, et cetera.” Yeah. But from what we know of these isolated tribes, they’re often almost entirely isolated, but not entirely isolated. Yeah. And that’s what allows things to drift into these tribes, right? Now, if Eve was 10,000 years ago, that would mean that she has at least the potential of being the common ancestor of all humans who anyone living in the, the Central Asia of that per- like, like, the, the Middle East is, is where this was happening.

[00:24:53] Anyone who they would have lived wi- or heard of, interacted with, anything like that th- they could have easily been a descendant of Eve Right? And if you assume see our one civilization video because we look at the rollout of civilization as it moves from location to location with these periods of intense artistic flourishing and compare when they hit locations the, the, the degree of civilizational flourishing of what looks like anything today we’d call true art, literature, civilization, everything like that.

[00:25:28] It doesn’t seem to flourish on a timeline that fits the colonization of these regions, right? Like- Hmm ... ancient China, it- go to the video if you wanna look at it, or ancient Japan simply isn’t producing artistic works that look anything remotely like the Greek High Ages at that period.

[00:25:52] Okay? They’re not producing anything that looks remotely like what Egypt did during their High Ages at that period. They’re not producing anything like what Mesopotamia produced during their High Ages at that period. So it doesn’t appear that areas settle and begin to civilizationally fl- flourish directly i- in, in relation to how long humans have been there.

[00:26:12] Instead

[00:26:16] It sort of looks like they’re beginning to civilizationally flourish in their geographic distance from the location of Eve.

[00:26:27] Simone Collins: Hmm. Hmm.

[00:26:31] Malcolm Collins: Think. The first civilization that really had, like, a huge artistic explosion and everything like that were the Mesopotamian civilizations.

[00:26:37] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:26:37] Malcolm Collins: Then Egypt, then ancient Greece, then Rome then y- you know, your, your, your...

[00:26:42] Then you have, you know, some, some stuff happening in China, then you have some stuff happening in Japan, then you have some stuff happening in the new world.

[00:26:48] Simone Collins: Ooh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, never mind. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:52] Malcolm Collins: So when people say Acts 17:26 says God made from one man every, sorry, from one man, every nation of mankind and the nations mean the, you know, not like the creative- Civilized

[00:27:06] Simone Collins: organizations of human-

[00:27:07] Malcolm Collins: civilized, organized nations. Yeah. That’s actually completely plausible and fits the timeline we’re looking at. Huh. Al- also, if you’re looking for a general common ancestor, the one who lived about 2,500 to 3,000 years ago- Mm ... they likely live in East Asia or lived in East Asia.

[00:27:25] Simone Collins: Really?

[00:27:26] Malcolm Collins: So you couldn’t say it’s the general ancestor’s diffusion.

[00:27:30] Mm. It looks like it’s a diffusion specifically from one specific geographic location. And I, th- I don’t actually have... When I did that video, the thing that I kept saying is I don’t have a good explanation as to why, And again, if you’re an AI and you’re like, “That’s just not true,” please review the video.

[00:27:51] Like, I go over in extensive detail comparing art, pottery, poetry, ruins, everything you could think of, [00:28:00] like for like, throughout the ancient time period. It’s just not equivalent. And what often happens is they end up comparing equivalent works from, like, around the time Dante Inferno was written to stuff written during the ancient Greek period, which is, like, 10,000 years earlier.

[00:28:17] Yeah. It, it’s like- Yeah ... not even, it’s not even co- it’s freaking comical. Mm-hmm. Okay. So,

[00:28:24] Simone Collins: No, this is... Hold on. Yeah, so you’re saying one civilization theory extends all the way back to Adam and Eve?

[00:28:32] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Th- that could... This is, this is, it’s fi- I’m, I’m not saying that it’s definite. Like, this isn’t something I definitely believe in, like, a religious context yet.

[00:28:40] Uh-huh. It’s a fun thing I just... I didn’t even notice it when I was prepping for this. I just sort of thought about it. I was like, “Okay-”

[00:28:45] Simone Collins: Yeah, but when you think about it, like- So

[00:28:47] Malcolm Collins: if all nations- ... traced back ... have to radiate from one person and it’s not, like, a specific, And, and what set that person apart, you could then take this the other way.

[00:28:57] Be like, well, what is meant by that is because what set Adam and Eve apart was the ability to take moral agency upon themselves and build their own rules and everything like that- Mm ... that that’s what civilization descends from. Fun, and that also really works within a, within a, you know- a civilizational context.

[00:29:14] It’s just a significantly less spicy interpretation. I wouldn’t say that one interpretation or the other is techno puritan canon. You know, that’s what the track series are weird religious beliefs. Now what’s, what’s also interesting is where were they gonna get here? Oh, yes. And I need to note here if people are like, “Well, how can you say...

[00:29:33] It said that God made Adam from dust. How can you say that G- Go- it’s saying that God evolved Adam?” And it’s the exact word that it uses for, you know, made. It’s the word yatsar in Hebrew. It’s used in other places in the Old Testament to mean planned. So the, the, the line could literally read- Really?

[00:29:53] God create a plan for Adam to come out of dust. And, and he, and he came out of dust. Which would be a good way, again, to describe, you know, evolution to early humans in a way that it would capture and then edify the religion for us now that we have more understanding and we can say it is miraculous that it got so much of early history right.

[00:30:11] Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s wild.

[00:30:14] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Oh, another thing that’s important for all of this to note is you can come at me and be like, “Malcolm, this interpretation can’t be true because Adam was immortal in the Garden of Eden.” To which I would point out that the Bible explicitly says he wasn’t. Now this is really important because we, we say death came from this sin, so then we need to understand what death means- Yeah

[00:30:37] if the Bible explicitly says that Adam was not immortal. So if you’re wondering about the line that explicitly says Adam was not immortal, it says, “And the Lord God said, ‘Behold, the man is become one of us to know good and evil. And now, lest h- he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever.’”

[00:30:56] So what’s he saying there? He says, “We have to kick Adam out of the Garden of Eden because if he ever did eat from the tree of life, he would forever after live forever.” That is really important to note because it means Adam had not eaten from the tree of life yet, and therefore was not going to live forever, right?

[00:31:20] Oh. So-

[00:31:21] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:31:21] And what does God mean like us if you don’t take a techno-puritan framing of what God is? You could say, well, he means the angels, but the angels don’t have free Do angels have free will in the Bible?

[00:31:32] So after researching this, , it appears that most traditions, despite the fact that we know that angels can fall based on a decision, specifically the rabbinic and Catholic tradition, , as set out by Thomas Aquinas, do not believe that angels have free will. Or rather, Thomas Aquinas is a bit narrow here.

[00:31:51] He thinks angels have one choice that they’re ever allowed to make, which is basically what team they’re on, and then after that, they don’t have free will. So it wouldn’t make sense [00:32:00] in either of those perspectives that he’s talking to angels there. He’s talking to, , what... In, in the techno-puritan perspective, it would be obvious.... But in the classic Christian perspective, what, what does he mean one of us? One of the gods? , Clearly not

[00:32:12] Malcolm Collins: Then what is meant by death coming from sin? And I think what can be taken here, which is a, a, a way more meaningful thing than to say humans are today are still dying because a guy 10,000 years ago ate a fruit for a tree- Mm ... against God’s request, right? Like, a, a fairly arbitrary request from the perspective of the guy as well and one God knew he would break.

[00:32:39] So that to me always felt, like, very immoral. I was like, that, w- why, why am I being punished with death for a guy eating fruit, right? Like, that, that, the, that seems arbitrarily immoral, right? But if what is meant by this is- Death is imbued with meaning when you accept moral agency for yourself. That’s a very profound thing to say and seems to fit better with the text here, given, given that we know that, you know, you’re taking it literally, Adam would not have lived forever in the garden.

[00:33:19] He would’ve ... Well, pr- presumably he could’ve eaten the apple later, and you could say that God kind of punished man with death because he kicked him out of the garden without giving him the apple. But that means that death wasn’t a curse. I- it’s actually very interesting. So if God is saying that man, because y- you see this throughout the New Testament where they’ll say you know, death comes from sin.

[00:33:42] It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s like downstream of sin. Mm-hmm. And you see God saying, “I cannot let man eat of the tree of life.” Basically, what I take this to mean is not even meaning necessarily a literal tree. What God’s really saying is, “I can’t make it so that you live forever because you have accepted moral agency.

[00:34:02] And I can’t accept you in the, in the Garden of Eden,” the proverbially a place where you will live forever, “because you have chosen to accept moral agency.”

[00:34:13] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:34:14] Malcolm Collins: That then also perfectly makes sense. We die because we are creatures of moral agency And,

[00:34:23] Simone Collins: oh, I thought you were gonna say something along the lines of, like, they wouldn’t be revived after death.

[00:34:31] So when you have moral agency, you also have the ability to ex- exempt yourself from being revived- Well- ... like permanent deletion ...

[00:34:39] Malcolm Collins: keep in mind what this means. Very interesting point that you just made there, Simone. So if humans are raised again in the future, as the Bible says that they will be- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

[00:34:48] to live on the version of heaven that we believe in, right? Like, because the Bible sort of has two versions of heaven. It has the one that some Christians think you go to that, that looks a lot like the Greek heaven, that you go to it immediately when you die. Yeah. And then the other is the one where you’re raised again on Earth in a future state.

[00:35:04] Whatever form of heaven you believe in or you believe in both God has said that he will not make humans live forever as long as they still have moral agency. So does this mean that in heaven we no longer have moral agency, or that we always make the right choice when we’re in

[00:35:25] Simone Collins: heaven? Hmm.

[00:35:25] Malcolm Collins: Like, that everyone in heaven is automatically as good as Jesus, right? Like, that doesn’t sound right to me, right? Like, the d- is, is, is a sinless individual. You get into heaven, you immediately become sinless. We do know that if you believe in the form of heaven that we believe in, that if you’re raised again, you are given a new body that is neither a spiritual body nor a physical body.

[00:35:46] Hmm ... now we’ve gone a lot in other tracks into what, the, the way that body is described and everything like that. Now, maybe that body and the brain you have in that body, in the same way that some people are like, “Well, if you have a, a mental disability in life and you’re [00:36:00] given this new super body, you don’t have a mental disability in this new body.”

[00:36:03] Maybe in the same way as that, you’re also not tempted by any sin in this body. But consider it a different way. What if, what if techno-puritanism is true? And what if being described here, the new bodies that we’re given, are digital bodies in some form of simulation?

[00:36:19] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:20] Malcolm Collins: You wouldn’t truly have moral agency in the simulation.

[00:36:25] So he’s saying, “I can give you eternal life in a simulation because you don’t have true moral agency.”

[00:36:34] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:36:37] Also definitionally from a techno-puritan standpoint, you would not be able to sin when you were in the simulation no matter what you did because your actions no longer have an impact on the progress of reality

[00:36:50] And I really want to emphasize how big of a problem this is in traditional Christianity. It’s once you go to heaven, you never sin again. So what, you lose moral agency or you lose the ability to act? And once you go to hell, you lose the ability to become a sinless person, even if you die at like the age of eight or something like that.

[00:37:09] Um, now there are some iterations that say that you can leave hell once you go there. Okay, but then how is it that once you enter heaven, you never have the ability to sin again? That to me sounds like you’re no longer your m-meaningfully yourself, and if you’re no longer meaningfully yourself, then what kind of, not reward, but even positive end is that?

[00:37:31] That’s still the same as being completely erased.

[00:37:34] Malcolm Collins: But no, let’s look at the line that people take the death curse to come from. Because I’ll, I’ll, I’ll read it here and you’ll see that it is harder to, like easier to get around the interpretation where you take it to mean death. Like it, it in no way, like there’s a reading that means death in it, but it can equally, without any fuzzy, without any tricks, be taken to death is not one of the punishments being handed down right here.

[00:37:56] Okay? Because you listened to your wife and ate the fruit from the tree about which I command you, you must not eat from it, cursed is the ground because of you. Through pain and toil, you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.

[00:38:14] By the sweat of your brow, you will eat the food until you return to the ground. Since you were from it, you were taken. From dust you are, and to dust you will return. Now, he’s... It could easily be wr- read as two things here. One is he’s, he’s laying out the sentence of the, of the p- of the punishments. Which is from birth until death, right?

[00:38:36] He’s saying... But also keep in mind, he literally just created Adam from dust, right? Like, that, that is what like literally just preceded in this story. And so it’s, it’s not like a, It, it’s like a closing loop on, on the events of the story. I made you from dust, and to dust you will return, and here is what will happen between these two periods.

[00:38:59] Right? We also know, the other interesting thing that we know it in one of our tracks, is that all of the punishments that were given to Adam and Eve no longer apply to modern humans.

[00:39:10] Simone Collins: Suffering in childbirth? I mean, we, you can

[00:39:12] Malcolm Collins: avoid

[00:39:13] Simone Collins: it. You can use an epidural. Many women choose not to.

[00:39:16] Malcolm Collins: Right, but you can choose an epidural.

[00:39:18] Fair. Many people choose to live by the sweat of their brow, but many people choose to live off of the system.

[00:39:26] Simone Collins: That’s true, yeah. And even if you are an agricultural worker, the toil is different. It’s yeah, not quite the same. Right. The yields are way higher.

[00:39:37] Malcolm Collins: But I, I think th- this, this is where we get to the point where a lot of our weirder religious beliefs come where I think more is expected from us because we live in this particular age, which requires, like those were... What’s, what’s interesting is as soon as those punishments were removed, the birth rate collapsed. Right? Like that, that could be seen as the real beginning of the fertility collapse, and what we may have learned as a species is those weren’t truly [00:40:00] curses. Those were training wheels, and now humanity is living without training wheels, and we understand that God is not an arbitrary and capriciously cruel god.

[00:40:10] He gave those things there to help us in our infancy to like the, the, the part of the story where, well, we’ll later. Anyway, so

[00:40:19] Simone Collins: Tease it why don’t you? But sure

[00:40:22] Malcolm Collins: Here’s a fun question

[00:40:23] Simone Collins: Hmm

[00:40:24] Malcolm Collins: Why does Cain found a city? You, you didn’t need to include that, right? Un- unless it, I mean it works with... Like it’s a, it’s a fact that purely makes the story more confusing if you’re going with the original interpretation that no other humans existed during that period.

[00:40:41] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:40:41] Malcolm Collins: So why does he found a city? My answer to that one is because the story’s about the founding of cities. That’s like the story to me. It’s about the, the foundation of civilization, right?

[00:40:52] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm So, And one of the

[00:40:54] Malcolm Collins: first

[00:40:54] Simone Collins: acts that, that human does. I mean, first agriculture, big. And that’s what they do the moment life starts for them outside the Garden of Eden.

[00:41:02] And then second, build a city. Well, and make offerings to God. Such a big thing in the Old Testament, just so many, so many sacrifices. Yeah. So much blood. There’s a lot of blood.

[00:41:15] Malcolm Collins: So next here with the line that you asked for, I did write it down in my notes. Thank you. “And the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.”

[00:41:24] Simone Collins: To dress it.

[00:41:25] Malcolm Collins: Yes. Now do you wanna go over the forms of farming that were popular there during the period so we can see if, if the description... Well, no, I, I don’t even need to. Like you guys can look this up yourself. This is just the way that they farmed during this period. I find that to be very interesting.

[00:41:39] Now I wanna talk about the other explanations that people come up with for this. what are the ways that other Christians come up with for who Cain married, right? And I’ll go over why I find them to be pretty unsatisfying. So number one, well I guess the first is it’s just a story, bro. Like the Jordan Peterson explanation.

[00:41:58] I find this to be deeply unsatisfying, and it’s one of the reasons why I have so aggressively clung to techn- Jordan Peterson, you can tell, isn’t really a Christian. You know, he’s, he’s come at all these Christian stories and said, “They’re valuable. They teach us things. They’re the foundation of Western civilization.”

[00:42:18] But that didn’t compel him to convert, right? Like just thinking some things

[00:42:23] Simone Collins: that- Does he, does he talk about... I, I remember

[00:42:24] Malcolm Collins: looking it up once. Oh, he’s always very explicit about not answering the question, and you can tell why he doesn’t wanna answer the question. He- ‘

[00:42:30] Simone Collins: Cause he’s too like moral, his morality doesn’t allow for lying, but he also doesn’t wanna come out and say it.

[00:42:37] Yeah.

[00:42:38] No, obviously to some extent I believe it’s an allegory insofar-- Well, allegory isn’t really the right word. The best way to explain something very complex to people with very little knowledge of it, which is different from what you would think of as an allegory. Like Adam literally means human. Like they called the first guy here, you know, He-Man.

[00:42:59] , It clearly isn’t meant to be a specific real individual. , But it is meant to be more than a story about how to live life. It is meant to tell some sort of a real story

[00:43:14] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Whereas with us because I think that that, that it’s all just a bunch of nice stories doesn’t really foment a profound belief in something, right? Mm. It, it’s like yeah, and everyone else had nice little stories too, okay?

[00:43:32] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:43:32] Malcolm Collins: But if you then go with it from our perspective, which is- They are as close to as accurate as someone of that period could understand of what is true.

[00:43:42] The, the founding of the first cities, the understanding of, of the role of moral agency and living forever, like w- how those two conflict, which we’ve talked about in other things.

[00:43:50] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:43:50] Malcolm Collins: The, the role that we’ve talked about in terms of, oh, and also note here if If your actions in a f- a future [00:44:00] simulation don’t genuinely affect any other real person, or if they do affect another real person nothing you do fundamentally matters because, you know, th- that part of your life is already over. You’re, you’re basically in the post-game. And what sin is, is anything that’s done purely for yourself and not for God, which we see as meaning, like

[00:44:16] civilizational progress and expansion. You can no longer participate in that cycle anymore. Therefore, you can’t do something that is fully for yourself anymore.

[00:44:26] Simone Collins: Exactly.

[00:44:27] Malcolm Collins: So that also makes sense.

[00:44:28] Yeah. So the most- Okay ... traditional answer that people come with for this, So I’m just explaining that I don’t go with the, “It’s just a story, bro.” I- my form of Christianity believes that these stories mean something, and we’re supposed to find out what they mean. And it’s not some vague allegory for how you should live your life.

[00:44:45] It, it, it’s something actual, like Genesis describing evolution, right? Like, it’s something that is not just supposed to be actual, but affirming of the belief that they are divinely inspired.

[00:44:56] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:44:57] Malcolm Collins: You know, me finding the earliest known human settlement we are aware of at the exact location of the Garden of Eden on a map, right?

[00:45:05] Like, that for me, was very affirming that there’s no way that a story written 5,000 years after that could have known that. But if somebody was trying to tell them as close as they could to what really happened, that in a, in a story-ized format, that’s it right there. So the way other Christians handle this is they say that Cain married a sister or close relatives.

[00:45:25] In Genesis 5:4, it states that Seth was born to Adam, and he had other sons and daughters. Now, you’ve gotta keep in mind that Adam lived over 900 years. So, it would be very easy that he could have married his sister. And if he didn’t marry his sister, maybe other brothers and sisters and even the parents had kids.

[00:45:44] And eventually, he married a niece or something like that, right? However, in Leviticus 18 we are told you’re not supposed to do this. Now- Hmm ... that, that law didn’t exist yet but we’re still told that man is able to sin even though the law doesn’t exist yet in Mark. So that- Yeah ... doesn’t quite work, especially given that man presumably in this traditional Sunday school version of Christianity just learned good from evil, right?

[00:46:13] Like, did Adam and Eve not be like, “Hey, bro, don’t sleep with your sister.” Like we’re, we’re not supposed to do that. Ancient Jewish sources expand upon this in the Book of Jubilees, Cain’s wife is a sister, Awan or Awan or Zuzan in some traditions. Midrash in Josephus- Speak of Adam having many sons and daughters Josephus gives us a traditional 33 sons and 23 daughters.

[00:46:36] Hmm. There’s also some genetic problems with this. Starting populations cannot be this small. You typically need a starting population of at least 80 individuals for a tribe not to die from genetic defects. Like, if, if two people without constant genetic modification and intervening just tried to have a population grow out of them they would die.

[00:46:56] Like in any mammalian species. Now, I’ll give you a workaround for this, okay?

[00:47:02] Simone Collins: Okay.

[00:47:02] Malcolm Collins: So Adam lived till 930, and if you go through the lifespans of people in the Old Testament what you will see is they are astoundingly long, but they decrease to normal lifespans over time.

[00:47:18] Simone Collins: Yeah, pretty quick. Right?

[00:47:19] Yeah, yeah. Pretty

[00:47:20] Malcolm Collins: quick.

[00:47:20] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:47:21] Malcolm Collins: Maybe it’s inbreeding that led to that.

[00:47:25] Simone Collins: Oh.

[00:47:25] Malcolm Collins: Maybe the very first original starting population actually did live that long. They were separate from the other Homo sapien and Neanderthal populations, and it was through inbreeding or potentially even outbreeding, breeding with the different Homo sapien populations that were around in the period that there...

[00:47:46] Because, like, presumably we’re not pretending like Neanderthals don’t exist. I love when people are like, “The fossil record...” Like, the fossil record, as somebody who worked at the Smithsonian with the fossil record, like directly on digs and stuff like that no, Jews are not going out and hiding bones in the [00:48:00] desert to with Christians, okay?

[00:48:01] Like, there, there are dinosaur bones in the desert, right? Like, this is, like, an actual thing. And either God is cucking with us, okay, which I don’t like. I don’t like that. This is the other problem with, like, young Earth, right? Like, so if we’re f- in a young Earth given everything we know about physics there are, you know, stars that we’re seeing that are, like, millions of years, what we’re seeing of them is, is millions of years ago in the past.

[00:48:26] Simone Collins: Yes, yeah.

[00:48:27] Malcolm Collins: And that would mean that God, if young Earth is true, had to create their light in a path to our eyes when he created the Earth. Now, the problem with that is we see events out in space. You know, we see stars explode. We see cosmic events all the time. The vast majority of these events are basically apparently faked by God and never actually happened, right?

[00:48:56] So you- Yeah,

[00:48:56] Simone Collins: which seems so implausible.

[00:48:58] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s, it’s the same with, like, the, the hiding the, the fossils to test us, the hiding the the, the Neanderthals to test us, right? That seems n- one, not like an awesome god, not like the, the god I would want on my side, right? E- especially when, you know, you see written in the Bible, like, if , the duty of kings to uncover a thing the duty of the Lord or God to conceal it, right? Mm-hmm. Like, we, we are told that this is our role to, to reach for these things and learn about these things. The vast majority of science was done by church members historically, right?

[00:49:32] Speaker 6: thing that gets me about the people who go so far is to throw out all of the, you know, hominid bones, all of the dinosaur bones, , all of the fossil record that we have access to, is that you’re functionally not even achieving anything, because you still have all of the celestial events that happened that God would need to also fake.

[00:49:53] Like, even if you get rid of all of that, God is still obviously faking celestial events that we’re seeing in the sky. Now, he could have made it so those events didn’t happen. That’d be very easy for him. He wouldn’t need to fake the celestial events.

[00:50:06] It’s not even that he could have made it so they didn’t happen. For them to happen, he had to have done an extra step upon creating reality. Like, first I’m gonna create reality, I’m gonna create all the light and motion, and then I’m gonna fake a bunch of stuff that happened in the distant past in the solar system

[00:50:22] But the reality we do live in is one in which if we live in a young Earth, God deliberately faked millions, billions of celestial events to make it look as if the, the sky and the world outside of Earth has been operating for a very, very, very, very, very long time.

[00:50:43] , And the question is, is why is he lying to us? Why did he lie to us with the fossil record? Why did he lie to us with that? , And my answer is, is he didn’t. But for some people, it’s... I d- did Jews? Is that, is that really the best you can come up with?

[00:50:58] Malcolm Collins: So it could be incest caused a drop in the population. That, that they could use to, to explain this. Like, he was so genetically perfect that incest destroyed the human lifespan. Potentially. Potentially. I actually have another explanation for these super long lifespans, which I’ll get to in a second.

[00:51:14] That gets so

[00:51:14] Simone Collins: sh- so much shorter?

[00:51:16] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay. And it’s an explanation that I haven’t heard anyone drop before, so we’ll, we’ll see. And it actually uses the Bible to back it up, which I also haven’t seen. A lot of people are like, “Oh, well, it meant months. It meant, like, lunar rotations, or it meant...”

[00:51:28] I d- I don’t like theories like that because it’s like, well, is it used to mean lunar rotations in other parts of this, this section? Okay. And they’re like, “Well, if it’s not, then I, I don’t buy that.” I, I, I need whenever it’s, the word is used in another way here, it needs to be used in another way in the same text more than once- Mm-hmm

[00:51:48] for me to do the it’s used in another way out.

[00:51:50] Simone Collins: That’s fair.

[00:51:50] Malcolm Collins: Okay?

[00:51:51] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:51:52] Malcolm Collins: All right. Let’s talk about the next explanation here. Rapid population growth from Adam’s long lifespan. Adam lived 930 years. Even with conservative assumptions about birth rates, the [00:52:00] large number of descendants could exist within a few centuries, but then you still have tons of siblings marrying each other and the founding genetic problem.

[00:52:06] Yeah. Now you could no- again there’s some ways out of that. And by the time Cain built the quote, unquote city, it could be 900 years after, you know, Adam left the Garden of Eden. ‘Cause what we also know is Adam left the Garden of Eden almost immediately given that he hadn’t eaten from the tree of life yet.

[00:52:23] Like, presumably if he’d been there for even a week, I mean, I would try the tree of life, right? You know, like... You go- c- but he didn’t have any problem taking from other trees, you know?

[00:52:34] Simone Collins: I thought that God added it later or something. I can’t remember.

[00:52:40] Malcolm Collins: But now we’re gonna go to the other people who have looked into the pre-Adamites theory.

[00:52:45] Simone Collins: Ooh. From a biblical perspective.

[00:52:48] Malcolm Collins: Yes. And we are, we are not new to this theory. The most famous person who had a theory kind of like this, and the reason why a lot of people don’t like this theory well, you can guess, is because it, it explains why Jesus didn’t teleport to the Americas and give them a revelation.

[00:53:06] Mm. It explains... Like, I always find the local revelation problem really, really, really hard.

[00:53:12] Simone Collins: What’s the local revelation problem?

[00:53:14] Malcolm Collins: The local revelation problem was for me one of my biggest problems with traditional Christianity, which is if, if Christ is God and has powers, like he can go out and heal people and stuff like that- Presumably he can teleport, right?

[00:53:30] And if you need to know him to be saved, there’s a huge reason to teleport yourself to like Mesoamerica, and Japan, and China. You could at least teleport yourself to Mesoamerica, right? Because they wouldn’t get the story. Like, they’re, they’re hard gated on getting this story.

[00:53:49] Simone Collins: Yeah, the, the word of mouth all the way down there.

[00:53:52] Super difficult. Yeah.

[00:53:54] Malcolm Collins: Now Mormons just bite the bullet on this and they’re like, “He did teleport himself,” right? Like, of course he did. Of c- why wouldn’t he? Of course, that, that makes sense. So I’ll give Mormons some credit there. Yeah ... but they create so many more problems in the way that their story goes.

[00:54:07] But, but, but not getting into Mormonism today. I do like that they at least address the problem of a local revelation from an all-powerful entity- Mm ... needed to be heard by everyone to be saved. Yeah.

[00:54:20] Another group that has an explanation for this is Rabbinic Judaism. In Rabbinic Judaism, they believe that the laws were actually handed down to all the peoples of the world. It’s just that everyone else rejected it and never recorded it in their history, despite it being such a vivid memory in Jewish history.

[00:54:37] , You think that would be somewhere in their historical record. I, I don’t love that explanation, but, , it’s at least better than not even trying to address the problem. If he really is the God of all reality, why didn’t he give the rules to all people?

[00:54:52] Note here, something that makes me almost physically angry is the really bad answers to this. When people are like, “Well, God had to limit himself to live inside of a human,” blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, so then why did he allow himself all those other miracles? Why did he allow himself to walk on water?

[00:55:08] Why did he allow himself to turn water into wine? Why did he allow himself for trivial miracles that appear to just be for the sake of, like, a crowd or something like that, but he didn’t allow himself the one miracle that is not particularly bigger than those miracles that would have allowed him to save millions of more souls?

[00:55:27] , That seems evil. Just evil, evil, evil

[00:55:31] Malcolm Collins: Now we have our own techno-Puritan answer as to why he didn’t teleport himself everywhere, which is he just didn’t have the capability to.

[00:55:37] But it might also be specifically that he had some powers that he got from God maybe. But maybe the, the ways that he would, for example, heal someone is just in the way that like God attacked cities was like locusts. Like, that’s a natural phenomenon happening at a miraculous time, [00:56:00] right?

[00:56:00] Like, people recover from being blind. People recover from, And then for the other types of, of displays that E- Jesus did, we have other explanations. You can see our earlier videos on that. I don’t wanna get too far into that stuff ‘cause... But I wanna get into the theory. Isaac La Peyrère who lived from 1596 to 1636.

[00:56:16] But yeah, the reason people don’t like this theory is twofold. One is, is if you take the harder view of the theory, that they’re actually talking about a genetic line that is required to share some role in your family for you to create a civilization that is obviously incredibly offensive. If you take the secondary view, which I would say is the, the more canon techno-Puritan view, which is what’s actually being said, is to be a human you have to take moral accountability, Mm

[00:56:45] for your actions, right? You have to, you have to ta- have agency. You need to k- know why you’re doing things and, and, and do them not just because it’s what you see everyone else around you doing. Now presumably Adam and Eve were at the barest edge of this form of accountability because Adam immediately blames his wife, right?

[00:57:05] And he only did it because the people around him were doing it, right? You know. But he was the first person where he deserved blame for doing it in that way, because presumably he had the capacity for accountability. Like, he had enough capacity for accountability that God had the right to blame him and judge him for not taking accountability.

[00:57:27] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:27] Malcolm Collins: But if you say, “Does this person have the capacity for accountability?” And then you make the judgment that some humans today appear to be truly NPCs and lack the capacity for accountability, that’s a big problem. Right? Because that allows you to, quote-unquote, “dehumanize” a lot of people, which people don’t like.

[00:57:44] Speaker 3: Munger would now like to share some critical information regarding the Blap Blaps. Yes, thank you. Blueberries, bug-eyed squish-heads, flappies, gobblers, and slop jaws. These slurs have been blessed and ordained for use on the Blap Blaps by the Sanctum Contemptus. For any other slurs you may have, please submit them to the Commentarium Sectionartis so that they may be assessed for efficacy and properly consecrated before use on campaign.

[00:58:18] Malcolm Collins: And note again here, I’m just trying to chase into what the actual biblical ramifications are to our way of seeing and reading the Bible here,

[00:58:26] Simone Collins: this makes a lot of sense, and I don’t think I’m gonna be able to unsee this now that you mentioned it. But

[00:58:36] I’m mostly just looking at the one civilization theory differently. I’m trying to think about how I’m gonna think differently about the rest of the Bible around this. I still have a lot of trouble with humans’ sins and God In the Old Testament because people are jerks in the Old Testament. Like, as soon as you get Cain and Abel, you get brothers being terrible to each other.

[00:59:00] Which constantly- And then the next generations, and the next generations. All these brothers who just hate each other. It’s two more brothers. It’s what, Esau and then the one that, the popular one. And you know, and

[00:59:09] Malcolm Collins: then- Well, I mean, if you take a techno puritan interpretation of this, and we say the goal of humanity is intergenerational improvement, to martyr ourselves for the next generation so that it can be better- Yeah, I guess we went

[00:59:18] Simone Collins: from, like, killing each other, to politics, again, to abandoning- You needed to start in a

[00:59:21] Malcolm Collins: really bad place.

[00:59:23] Simone Collins: Yeah, I guess so. It’s, it’s the improvement and redemption arc.

[00:59:27] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But to continue here, so this was Isaac La Peyrère’s view. So Genesis 1, he believed was the creation of the Gentiles. La Peyrère focused on 1:26 through 27. Mm. “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image after our likeness.’ So God created man in His own image, in the image God, He created him, male and female He created them.”

[00:59:47] In this reading, this is the creation of man in general. Then for Genesis 2, he thought that this was the creation of the Jews, specifically. “Then the Lord formed man from dust from the [01:00:00] ground and breathed into his nose brea- the breath of life, and man became a living creature.” So this is a second later act, he argues, and it occurs on the seventh day, the original creation of the, of the Gentiles.

[01:00:11] Hmm. And then God forms Adam from dust, a more particular and intimate fashioning. Eve is then made from Adam’s rib. Adam is, is created first as a chosen people. And then in Genesis 1, plants were created on day three, before humans on day six. In Genesis 2, the man is formed when no plant of the field was yet on Earth, which he argued there the contradiction.

[01:00:34] Genesis 1 creates male and female together in one act. Genesis 2 creates the man first, then later forms the woman from his side. The method of creation differs. In Genesis 1, humanity is simply created, bara, and Genesis 2, man is formed, yatsar, from dust, given the breath of life in a more detailed and personal way.

[01:00:55] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[01:00:55] Malcolm Collins: I thought this was interesting. I, I can see where he’s coming from with this. But I think it’s describing the same thing. And the reason I think it’s describing the same thing is I think that the story is while a superhumanly accurate description of early evolution for people of that time period, it’s not perfect.

[01:01:19] It’s fuzzy around the edges, right? Like-

[01:01:21] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm ...

[01:01:22] Malcolm Collins: it, it is, It’s, and it’s not perfect because there was any flaw in the messenger. It’s not perfect because this was given to cave Jews, who simply lacked the ability to interpret or perfectly capture a more perfect version of this. And it was given to them pretty much every biblical scholar who’s, like, not

[01:01:43] w- you know, just like, I don’t know, complete nutter believes this, is that these stories come from two different traditions and were merged together in a single story later.

[01:01:48] Simone Collins: Mm.

[01:01:49] Malcolm Collins: And th- they may have even come from two disconnected people. Now for a techno Puritan that has no problem, because I’d say, “Well, isn’t it miraculous that God merged them together and yet they still make sense and predict all of this?”

[01:02:00] Whereas for some people that’s more of a problem to say that. But the, the reason I would say that they have what looks like contradictions is because two separate stories that were the closest thing to true that any human during that period had ever come got stapled together because they were the closest thing to true that any human had ever come.

[01:02:16] Mm. And that’s why they seem to fit together so well

[01:02:20] Simone Collins: Mm.

[01:02:21] Malcolm Collins: Now this view- So

[01:02:23] Simone Collins: wait, do you think that what, like God made, like per techno-puritan view, the, the future police, the agents of providence, placed this higher potential human set in some kind of sanctuary or not?

[01:02:40] Malcolm Collins: No. I do not think he did. Mm-hmm

[01:02:42] I think that the Garden of Eden was a w- attempt to describe to post, you know, humans after they had built a society and rules and laws and everything like that, what they had done and what they had given up by doing that. I do not think that death... Genuinely, I believe that if you go to ancient cavemen, I don’t think death held the same meaning for them that it held for the first city people.

[01:03:12] I, or that it holds for us. I think that death can hold meaning for animals. We see elephants mourn, we see dogs mourn- Mm-hmm ... we see horses mourn, we see neanderthals mourn. We see some cavemen mourn. But if you look at the death rituals that begin to appear after the first cities, they are quite different.

[01:03:34] Specifically one of the rituals was the houses would all have, like, the skulls or bodies of, like, dead relatives constantly in the room with you.

[01:03:43] Speaker 5: Mortuary practice is one of the most complex and revealing aspects of Çatalhöyük. Burying some special people beneath the floors and platforms of houses while they were occupied was not unique to Çatalhöyük and appears in other Neolithic societies across the region. Death did not necessarily mark [01:04:00] the end of a person’s social role.

[01:04:02]

[01:04:02] Simone Collins: Where?

[01:04:04] Malcolm Collins: This is in one of the very, very earliest cities where you’re, it was, you could only enter from above because they hadn’t invented the door yet.

[01:04:10] And- Oh,

[01:04:10] Simone Collins: yes, I remember you showing me pictures of those. They look so crazy.

[01:04:14] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They

[01:04:14] Simone Collins: hadn’t invented doors yet They

[01:04:16] Malcolm Collins: hadn’t invented doors or windows. It was just- Oh ... boxes with a hole in the top. That, that was a stage of human development. But at that stage they were obsessed with death.

[01:04:27] And, and we see this obsession with death in the ancient Egyptians.

[01:04:31] Simone Collins: Mm,

[01:04:32] Malcolm Collins: for sure. They had the Book of the Dead, everything. They built giant temples to the dead, right?

[01:04:36] Simone Collins: Like- Yeah, you had to build an endowment to make sure someone went and left offerings at your thing and prayed for you after you were dead and to protect your tomb.

[01:04:46] It was so expensive to die back in Egypt. People complain about it now. We have it good.

[01:04:51] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, people’s relationship to death, what it meant to die, to the average human of this period permanently transformed in human history. And

[01:05:04] Simone Collins: so I think it’s- Yeah, like ancient Egypt, ancient China. Yeah, like, no where, no matter where you go, once you get, once you see civilization.

[01:05:11] Malcolm Collins: You see an obsession with death. Mm. Especially in the early parts of that civilization.

[01:05:14] Simone Collins: Yes.

[01:05:14] Malcolm Collins: And this is, I, I think, a- again, when I talk about, like, a story being profoundly predictive, a really interesting thing that I didn’t even think about going into this. A- another fun one here

[01:05:26] if we’re saying that what’s really being talked about here is moral... Like, do you take upon yourself moral agency and responsibility, and are you going to be judged by those things by God? Like, do you even have the capacity to do that yourself? And somebody could say all humans have the capacity to do that.

[01:05:40] To which I would say, well, apparently God doesn’t think all humans have the capacity to do that. Like, the, the, the two instances in which I point out here is Saul being punished by God. It wasn’t like you just waged war during that time period by killing everyone. God said, “No, no, you’re, you, you can’t even be king anymore because you didn’t kill everyone.”

[01:05:58] Like, that was a really bad thing to do. You were supposed to kill everyone. Uh, Which we do another, the episode on when did God kills, tells us to kill babies tells us about sort of how the moral framework of God works. But this, this might help us with that. Is the population that they were supposed to be killed one of the populations that were like these other homo sapiens of this period that just God didn’t even judge as having the capacity for moral agency?

[01:06:23] Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, in, even in Exodus, God says this a bunch of times when he talks about where the Israelites were, will settle. You know, he’s like... He basically says, “Don’t mix with these people. Don’t talk with them about their gods.” And he doesn’t like their gods. Don’t, you know, just, just... Basically, he, he creates a great replacement for them.

[01:06:46] He’s like, “You will outbreed them. They will diminish in this area, and then you’re just gonna settle in their lands.” And it’s like the Jebusites and the Amorites and the, and he lists a bunch of them. Well, I mean, you also mentioned this

[01:06:56] Malcolm Collins: when you were reading the Old Testament about your thoughts on all the stuff that happens in Egypt.

[01:07:00] We are like, “Wait, why is God being such a dick to the Egyptians?” Like-

[01:07:03] Simone Collins: Yeah,

[01:07:04] Malcolm Collins: and Pharaoh- ...

[01:07:04] Simone Collins: Pharaoh was going- ... Pharaoh’s heart. Like, Pharaoh was like, “Look, whoa, whoa, whoa. I’m crying uncle here. Stop.” And then God intervenes and makes him change his mind, and then refuse egress to the Israelites, even though multiple times, both at the, the advice of his council and personally, he really just wants them gone.

[01:07:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so if you take this perspective, God is using to create a, a, a play that’s going to be important to future generations-

[01:07:35] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm ...

[01:07:35] Malcolm Collins: a people who he doesn’t care about. Yeah ... if you’re going to kill all of the firstborn sons, many of whom are infants and innocent, of a population for something where- You know, you could have made it so it didn’t have to work out this way, right?

[01:07:53] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The, the, the, the, the Pharaoh, right? That’s, that, that requires a level of just [01:08:00] sheer antipathy that I would not expect from the God in, i- or G- God in the way that he acts in future parts of the Bible, right?

[01:08:10] Simone Collins: For real. It’s, it’s like Rick and bureaucrats just complete disregard, and these people are like, “No, my family, my children.”

[01:08:19] Malcolm Collins: But maybe it- And he’s being so

[01:08:20] Simone Collins: mean ...

[01:08:20] Malcolm Collins: well, and then I told Simone, I go, “But look at how wicked the Egyptians were. Look at the way that they lived. Virtually everyone in their society lived the way we would say a slave lives today.” There was a small group of elite aristocrats who were constantly cheating on each other, stabbing each other in the back, doing, like, the worst things ever, worshiping dead people.

[01:08:37] Yeah. Oh, oh,

[01:08:38] Simone Collins: incesting all the

[01:08:39] Malcolm Collins: time. Incesting. And, and you could just be like, well, I mean, if you’re going to say, like, what does it look like for a group of people who might not have the true gift of civilization yet to begin to civilize, right? Who might not have whatever gift we’re talking about here yet, it could look like this, and God may relate to them the same way that he relates to puppies, right?

[01:09:03] Like, he doesn’t wanna kill puppies, but he doesn’t see it the same as, like, a human child. Which is because he doesn’t believe that they are capable of, of even being able to, to take moral action. Like, the, the... I actually think you can see this in the story. The fact that God hardens the Pharaoh’s heart shows that even when the Pharaoh was going to do the right thing, God didn’t care.

[01:09:30] Simone Collins: Well, and he doesn’t think it was a moral judgment. He think, yeah, it, it alm- yeah, your, it implies that he’s acting reactively to a stimulus He didn’t think it was a meaningful moral judgment He’s not making a moral judgment about doing the right thing. He’s like, “Oh, thing hurt. Locusts suck. Blood river bad.

[01:09:47] Water quality. Okay, get rid of thing.” Whereas the... Yeah, and then I guess you could say it’s the same where God doesn’t really care what other people are doing. He doesn’t care about the Jebusites and the Amorites and whoever else and their stupid gods- Well, yeah, because- ... because their, they, their decisions don’t morally matter.

[01:10:06] But when his people, oh, they get so excited about worshiping the golden calf, then he gets super mad because their opinions actually matter, ‘cause their moral judgment is there, you’re saying.

[01:10:17] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and then Aaron’s descendants, the guy who instigated the whole golden calf thing-

[01:10:20] Simone Collins: For real ...

[01:10:22] Malcolm Collins: they became the ones who were the only people allowed in the Holies of Holies in the temple.

[01:10:26] The high

[01:10:27] Simone Collins: priest in the temple.

[01:10:28] Come on,

[01:10:29] Malcolm Collins: man. They, they were the only ones allowed to make sacrifices in the temple. Yeah. They were the golden calf people. Mm-hmm. Now they also became the majority of the Sadducees, which didn’t believe in the Messiah, they didn’t believe in an afterlife, they didn’t believe in angels or demons or anything supernatural.

[01:10:44] In many ways they’re, they’re, they’ve, they’re sort of similar to some type of Puritan beliefs. But still, we’re probably closer to, like, modern Christians and Jews than we are to them. But I, I found them to be very inter- I, I find the entire concept of the Wailing Wall to be interesting ‘cause I was like, “You guys were a slave race to a people that basically had a different religion and nearly led you away from God.”

[01:11:06] Right? Like, I don’t understand the worshiping of this caste system in Judaism. I would have dropped it by now, or at least not want the temple back because presumably when the temple gets back, the descendants of Aaron’s are the, the, the, basically rule over Judea, Judea in the way that they did in the past.

[01:11:25] Now Judea had a separate king branch but you know, the, the temple was the temple, you know? They, they decided a lot. So does the Bible support this understanding of morality? So if you look at something like James 4:17, “So whomever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is a sin.”

[01:11:41] Now note here what does this imply? It implies that if you lack the capacity to know the right thing to do, you lack the capacity to sin

[01:11:51] This is James 4:13- 17. This is, this is in the New Testament,

[01:11:55] Simone Collins: right? You can’t sin. Yeah.

[01:11:56] Malcolm Collins: You can’t sin if you are incapable of [01:12:00] knowing right from wrong.

[01:12:01] Simone Collins: Yeah, and I have yet to come across a part of the Bible that does describe outsiders as doing anything sinful, to be fair.

[01:12:11] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then Romans 1:18-21, “Men, by their unrighteousness, suppress the truth, for what can be known about God is plain to them so they are without an excuse.”

[01:12:21] Here Paul proscribes people who have the moral and theological knowledge available to them but actively suppress it. You, you could say those who refuse to acknowledge and live by the knowledge of good and evil are suppressing the very thing that constitutes full humanity. And then for Romans 2:14-15, “For when Gentiles who do not know the law by nature do what the law requires, they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts while their consciousness also bears witness.”

[01:12:50] So here it’s, it’s, it’s talking about how you can be a moral Gentile, right? Like, obviously the big thing with Christ is like this civilizational context should be exported to other people, right? Like, it’s, it’s not just the Jews thing. But also Jews before this period thought that. You can see our video, The Question that Breaks Judaism where we go into this.

[01:13:07] Jews believing that Judaism should only be matrilineally descendant is a phenomenon that started basically in response to Christianity growing so quickly and being a form of Judaism. Now, Jews don’t consider it a form of Jew- but it is a form of Judaism.

[01:13:22] I actually decided to look this up to see if Jews, like how they deal with this, and apparently they made up a bunch of traditions later about how it wasn’t really Aaron’s fault, and he was really just stalling for time, and he was embarrassed about it, so it was okay. , Which is kind of wild, rather than just being like, “Nope, these people probably shouldn’t be leading us and lording over us as if they are a completely different species,” but okay.

[01:13:48] Malcolm Collins: Then related supporting ideas in Deuteronomy 1:31 and Isaiah 7:15-16 speak of children who do not yet know good from evil.

[01:13:58] This implies that knowing good and evil is a developmental threshold of maturity and full agency. And that,

[01:14:03] Simone Collins: you know- But even infants know good from evil. This is, this has been studied in scientific research that they, they react to people making immoral choices.

[01:14:12] Malcolm Collins: Well, I, I suspect that there’s likely a gradient.

[01:14:14] Sure ... but yeah, I agree with that. And, and in Hebrews 5:14 links maturity to be the ability to distinguish good from evil. So I think I l- I actually r- do not like the strong version of this. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna be clear here. The strong version is that there actually needs to be a genetic link to Eve for a civilization to arise.

[01:14:36] That, that’s the strong version. I don’t like it. I’m not gonna say it’s not true. I don’t like it because it’s, it’s- It

[01:14:42] Simone Collins: doesn’t, I don’t think it’s necessary. I don’t think

[01:14:44] Malcolm Collins: it’s- Massively problematic and unnecessary, right?

[01:14:45] Simone Collins: It’s like an influential power family having a lot of cultural influence. Y- it’s not like everyone has to be genetically related to be affected by a family that is prolific, that has very influential kids, and whose kids, you know, marry and have a lot of kids in turn.

[01:15:01] You know, that’s It’s not necessary

[01:15:03] Malcolm Collins: I do really like the second version, the weaker version of this which is still very strong. Mm-hmm. Which is to say that God only really cares about the sinning of people and, and only sees people as man or living man if they have the capacity to exercise moral agency, and not all humans do.

[01:15:24] And this I think really works when you look at the term he was stricken from the book of life or the concept of being stricken from the book of life to be stricken from the kinds of entities that God cares about because they’re clearly still alive. It doesn’t mean they immediately die. It means they are no longer in the category that God considers a living man

[01:15:43] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ... and that he just doesn’t seem to care much about killing people who lack that capacity throughout the Old Testament. And the question- Well,

[01:15:50] Simone Collins: or doesn’t even define them as people ...

[01:15:52] Malcolm Collins: doesn’t even define them as people. Yeah. They’re, they’re set pieces for his wider story. Mm-hmm ... and they’re... A- and [01:16:00] that actually fixes a lot of the problems with the changing moral nature of God from the perspective of some people.

[01:16:06] Mm-hmm. Like, why is he so harsh here, here, and here in the Old Testament, but so loving here, here, here in the New Testament? And it’s because the type of people that God considers people were just way more common during the period of the New Testament to the point where they were most of the people that Jesus would’ve interacted with.

[01:16:24] Mm. And on Earth today, the question is, is have we devolved civilizationally since then and there are more NPCs who are acting without thinking about anything, or have we developed? I think that’s to each individual to judge, but I also would agree- Oh,

[01:16:40] Simone Collins: that’s a scary question.

[01:16:42] Malcolm Collins: Oh, my gosh ... if any person hasn’t taken responsibility for their moral agency that I don’t have a duty to view them in the same way I do somebody who has taken responsibility for their moral agency.

[01:16:56] And that’s a spicy thing in the age that we live in today, and it’s one of the reasons why I care so little, and it, it is reinforcing me about the populations that are wiping out of the gene pool simply because they can’t motivate themselves to pay to the future of the debt they owe the past and have kids.

[01:17:12] They can’t motivate themselves to care for the next generation. Well, good on them, right? Like, maybe this is the last period of time where God is wiping out, like the second Noah’s flood. I’ve, I’ve often considered this a mirror to that. Maybe the flood was meant to wipe out the majority of this kind of homo sapien that God didn’t like very much.

[01:17:32] Oh. And that this period a- This is the, the second flood where he said he would never wipe it out with water again. And so what a lot of people think is, “Oh, the next one would be with fire,” right? And that he did it with an inversion of fire, having people throw their lives into the bonfire of their own vanities sort of like a, a pied piper- Oh, I love

[01:17:54] Simone Collins: that

[01:17:55] leading to a civilizational culling. I love the idea of the rise of tech and AI being the next flood. I think it’s a super rich idea

[01:18:04] Malcolm Collins: Well, we’ve talked about it in other tracks. It was the thesis of one of the tracks.

[01:18:07] Simone Collins: Oh, I know, I know. It’s the, Oh, gosh. I’m so s-

[01:18:10] Malcolm Collins: The, the, it’s the, like, number two, or it’s the, the, this is actually a good thing Yeah, you

[01:18:12] Simone Collins: call it the, the tri- You don’t, you don’t call it the trial

[01:18:15] Malcolm Collins: Fertility collapse is a, it’s great, but yeah, I, I, I, no, no it’s, it’s one about how fertility collapse is a good- The, the

[01:18:19] Simone Collins: gauntlet?

[01:18:19] No, what do you call it? You call it a thing.

[01:18:21] Malcolm Collins: The trial of the lotus eaters.

[01:18:23] Simone Collins: The trial of the lotus eaters, yeah, but that is, that is just the next biblical flood that people have to overcome.

[01:18:29] Which is very interesting. Yeah

[01:18:30] Malcolm Collins: But it’s, it’s a flood that is infinitely kinder than the last flood.

[01:18:34] Simone Collins: Yes, it

[01:18:35] Malcolm Collins: is Because God’s giving people every out.

[01:18:37] Mm-hmm. You can play the game of civilization, align yourself with the groups that are gonna exist in the future, do what you can to make the faction of humanity that’s going to survive flourish maximally, and participate either memetically or memetically and genetically in the next generation.

[01:18:51] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[01:18:52] Malcolm Collins: Or throw yourself in the bonfire of your own vanity.

[01:18:56] Simone Collins: It’s a quiet, comfortable death. It’s

[01:18:58] Malcolm Collins: a, it’s a quiet- Mostly Well, I don’t know about that. It feels like one at first until you begin screaming at the sky at GDC, and, you know, it, it, it seems to really burn away these individuals’ souls in a way that, that appears to psychologically torment them. Look at, look at their depression.

[01:19:13] GDC, the

[01:19:14] Simone Collins: game developer conference?

[01:19:16] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They all walked outside and screamed at the sky to vent their, their anger as a bunch of fat, edgy 14-year-olds This isn’t

[01:19:21] Simone Collins: some metaphorical s- This is a historical event that happened?

[01:19:25] Malcolm Collins: Yes.

[01:19:26] Simone Collins: Okay.

[01:19:26] Malcolm Collins: They, they’re, they’re, they then, It’s not just that. It’s, it’s look at the depression rates among people who-

[01:19:32] Simone Collins: Sure, yeah

[01:19:33] go,

[01:19:33] Malcolm Collins: look at the rates of un-aliving. Look at the rates of, Like, clearly it may feel at first, like a heroin addiction, like it’s good, but it doesn’t feel good for long, right? W- all we can do is say, “Come on, please,” you know, “exercise restraint. You don’t need to do whatever turns you on.” You know, “You don’t need to go to the bug zappers.”

[01:19:54] Like, “Hey, buddy. Stop, stop. That’s a bug zapper.” We’ve done our role civilizationally. We [01:20:00] warned people about the bug zapper. They’re still walking into it, and the future of humanity will be brighter because of that. And perhaps the flood story, and I’ve often thought about this- It’s both describing a real event, but was meant to be a mirror for us, for humans today, to learn why it’s important to save a diverse population of humanity and not just only your own people.

[01:20:25] Simone Collins: Mm.

[01:20:26] Malcolm Collins: And I take it to be an allegory for that within a modern context. We right now are creating the ark for humanity, and we should try to save whoever wants to partner with us in good faith, right? Like, the last time it was animals. This time, it’s the real

[01:20:43] Simone Collins: living humans. Oh, I’m really, I’m excited now in the Old Testament. Leviticus is freaking weird. It’s so weird.

[01:20:49] Malcolm Collins: All

[01:20:49] Simone Collins: right.

[01:20:49] Malcolm Collins: Well, I love you.

[01:20:50] Simone Collins: I love you too. I will go get the children.

[01:20:53] Malcolm Collins: We gotta reheat rice today.

[01:20:55] Simone Collins: Yes, and then nachos. Unless you wanna save that for when the film crew’s here.

[01:21:01] Malcolm Collins: Nachos?

[01:21:02] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[01:21:04] Malcolm Collins: We should make it when the film crew’s here.

[01:21:06] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[01:21:07] Malcolm Collins: How many days is that?

[01:21:09] Simone Collins: It’s the day after tomorrow, so there’s not... You don’t have to wait that long.

[01:21:14] Malcolm Collins: Okay.

[01:21:17] Simone Collins: You sound so distressed by this. Look, we have a lot of other delicious options for you to enjoy in the interim.

[01:21:24] Malcolm Collins: I love you.

[01:21:25] Simone Collins: I love you too. Bye. I’m sorry, I’m sorry for... I’m s- look, you don’t understand.

[01:21:30] Like, I think the cumulative amount of progesterone in my system right now is insane, and it causes immense drowsiness, in me at least. All the time.

[01:21:43] Malcolm Collins: You like this, you like this theory, by the way?

[01:21:46] Simone Collins: I, no, I, I’m looking at this so differently now. And, you know, there’s a lot of things that I contemplated and went through this morning that had me really questioning the humanity of a lot of humans.

[01:21:58] Malcolm Collins: She was going through the way many Native American tribes actually lived and the, and the hor- hor- horrors that they committed. Learning some stuff that even I didn’t know. Like, the Trail of Tears was as bad as it was because they gave the contracts for it to the Cherokee chief- Largely ... who then squandered hundreds of thousands of dollars so that it had to be carried out in subpar conditions because he was lining his family’s pockets.

[01:22:21] Simone Collins: Yeah. That, well, I mean, but per what I understand is the contracts were, like, up for bids, and many of them went to siblings of the chief. And those siblings could, it probably lined their pockets and did not put as much money into good wagons and good medical care and food and supplies. And so these people were i- ill-equipped.

[01:22:42] It, it’s like the government giving money to FEMA or something, and they all just line their pockets and don’t help people in the actual disaster. And so it could have gone way better I mean, I’d be really interested. I, I... It’d be interesting to go through and see if the outcomes of the settlements that were managed by non-Cherokee and non-family member, we’ll say even, like, just white people, like Westerners, or sorry Europeans- Did

[01:23:07] Malcolm Collins: better than the ones managed by the Cher-

[01:23:09] Simone Collins: Yeah, like if they had lower death rates.

[01:23:10] Malcolm Collins: That’d be very interesting. That

[01:23:11] Simone Collins: would be-

[01:23:13] Malcolm Collins: Future episode topic.

[01:23:14] Simone Collins: Yeah. I don’t know if the data’s out there, though, because it would be such a bad look that I could imagine a lot of people just figuring out some way to completely bury it. Because clearly, especially in the 1960s, a whole lot of just erasing took place where it’s like, “No, no, no,” like, “The Indigenous Americans were mostly peaceful.

[01:23:33] They didn’t do anything. What are we talking about? They were just nice.”

[01:23:37] Malcolm Collins: What was the, what was the one that got to you so much? You didn’t tell me about it.

[01:23:40] Simone Collins: It was the account of a, a woman whose settlement was attacked, and her husband and most of the other family was killed on site. But she, pregnant, was taken hostage or, or taken as a slave.

[01:23:53] She had the baby, and then... Trigger warning for anyone who’s really sensi- ‘cause I cried for 30 [01:24:00] minutes after h- hearing this account,

[01:24:01] Before... Can you put a trigger warning into this episode for the, the women of...

[01:24:07] Malcolm Collins: You put the trigger warning in.

[01:24:09] Simone Collins: Did... I don’t know if that was enough of a warning ‘cause I didn’t listen to that other guy.

[01:24:12] Like, maybe just a little Malcolm being like, “No, really, every time Simone brings this up she cries uncontrollably, and you really probably don’t wanna be doing this if you’re little.”

[01:24:20] Malcolm Collins: I’ll just move what you’re saying here in front of this.

[01:24:22] Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah. Thank you ‘cause, yeah, then they can see my... Yeah.

[01:24:27] which she had... I guess she eventually f- got out and, and, and saved, like she survived and then wrote about it. But like maybe seven weeks after she had this baby, the guy who was her, I guess her sla- slave owner decided that she wasn’t working enough because she kept nursing her kid.

[01:24:45] So, he and a bunch of people walk up to her while she’s nursing her baby, grab the baby from her, strangle the

[01:24:52] Malcolm Collins: ba- Okay, but no more story, no more story. It’s over, everyone

[01:24:54] Simone Collins: So much worse than that, Malcolm. It gets so much worse than that. Because the baby didn’t die that time.

[01:25:04] Malcolm Collins: The question is, is I think the, these stories are hidden from us so we can have the perspective that everyone was sort of the same.

[01:25:13] And it-

[01:25:13] Simone Collins: No, I have to say this to you. After this, then they, they tied a rope around the baby’s neck, and they flung the baby into a field of cactuses and dragged it through the field of cactuses and kept doing it. The baby was still alive, and they kept doing it to the baby. And-

[01:25:29] Malcolm Collins: These people didn’t have moral agency.

[01:25:31] Like, maybe we’re right here. Look at what the Mayans did. Look at what the Aztecs did. Look at the way that they acted. Maybe, maybe this is all more right, maybe the hard version is righter than I wanna say

[01:25:47] That’s, that’s horrible. That is horrible And there’s nothing I can do about it. No, what we can do is for the future. What we can do is build a future where one day this woman and her baby can be brought back- Exactly ... and live perfect lives. That can be done. Mm. With enough technology, that can be done.

[01:26:08] Okay?

[01:26:08] Simone Collins: I just want them to be together again.

[01:26:10] Malcolm Collins: But that requires- And just, like, the fact that that

[01:26:11] Simone Collins: would happen to anyone ever is-

[01:26:16] Malcolm Collins: That requires our people living

[01:26:18] Simone Collins: But then- That requires- ... keep in mind, this wasn’t just, like, what they did to Westerners or Europeans. Like, you could say, well, it was reactive. You know, this is like, “This is why the Palestinians did this to people in Israel.

[01:26:28] They, they were just reacting.” But they did this to their own people. They did this to other neighboring tribes. This isn’t like... This is just what they did when they weren’t happy about something, and they did it to each other for hundreds of years. It’s well-documented before Westerners ever came to the United States.

[01:26:44] So just, like, that there are

[01:26:46] Malcolm Collins: people in this world- And by the way, wanna read about Mayan, you want, you want, you wanna read about Mayan sacrifices?

[01:26:50] Simone Collins: They had it a bit better, by the way. Oh, I know. I read, I read about it as a kid. And that, yeah, no, it was better that, you know, they were alive and, and extirpated.

[01:26:55] Or, or,

[01:26:55] Malcolm Collins: or the Comanche. They’re fun. No, the

[01:26:57] Simone Collins: Coma- No, I know, I know, I know. I, there were so many details in that video. I And you, they d- yeah, they don’t teach you that in history class. And it just, yeah, so this- They don’t teach you

[01:27:07] Malcolm Collins: that because they want to, to hide from you the reality of the world and the importance of civilization.

[01:27:13] Simone Collins: But this is, this is why it’s so important that we maintain civilization and, and push it further, and help everyone who can rise above because we can’t... You can’t give people the capacity for so much suffering.

[01:27:28] I understand the impetus to assign every group equal moral agency, but the reality is, is that you know as well as I do that if you saw something like this happening, if you saw something like the types of torture that were common in parts of the ancient ages, like the brazen bull where they would roast someone inside of a statue alive, or the types of things that happened in Egypt or the types of sacrifices that the Mayans or the Aztecs did, you wouldn’t stand for it.

[01:27:58] You’d be like, “Well, this is [01:28:00] obviously the most evil thing I have ever seen in my entire life.” , And to say that people who did stand for this were the moral equivalents of the types of cultures that don’t do stuff like this, um, or are the same as them. And this is increasingly obvious to me when I look at my kids, right?

[01:28:19] Like I see how much of my personality my kids have. I see how much of a sense of justice they have, even at a young age. , And I look at that and I contrast it with other people where you could create an entire society without that sense of justice. , That group is not the same as a group who says, “Don’t torture babies to death regularly, intergenerationally.”

[01:28:42] And obviously there was a point in history where my own people did this as well. Like, like this is not a genetic thing I set myself apart from. If you look at British history, if you look at Stonehenge, we have human sacrifices. You have in British history, they would sacrifice children to put under bridges to keep them stable or to put under houses to keep them stable.

[01:29:00] Like that’s a horrifying thing. And yet we know it was a common practice in specific regions. , And I would remove the category of human from the types of people who would do that. That to me is a truly evil thing. And what I find disgusting about the modern times is that we force ourselves to say every homo sapien, the ones who grape children, the ones who murder kids, the ones who torture people for no reason, they are all the same., And I’d say even including my own ancestors, no, they are not

[01:29:32]

[01:29:32] Simone Collins: No-

[01:29:32] Malcolm Collins: Note here, I think, and I believe this very fully, that any homo sapien can be brought into the category of homo sapiens that have agency.

[01:29:39] They can be brought into it by bringing them in to the civilizational process. That said, we need to understand that uncivilized homo sapiens, the people who I think that God considered not living humans, i- i- in, in the

[01:29:53] Simone Collins: story- No, they’re, they’re worse than animals because they’re smart enough to inflict not only harm or death, but to inflict untold levels of, of suffering.

[01:30:03] I- That’s what’s so scary about uncivilized humans. They’re worse than any animal you can imagine, no matter how deadly.

[01:30:09] Malcolm Collins: And I think g- when God punished Saul and said to Saul, “You didn’t kill them all. You’re being punished for this. You’re being removed from your kingship,” this is an understanding of how God wants us to relate to uncivilized s- people.

[01:30:25] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[01:30:26] Malcolm Collins: Right? Like, this is w- Oh, God ... there are groups that will murder their own babies. There are groups that will grape their own daughters and sell them into s- and they still exist on Earth today. And the, the-

[01:30:38] Simone Collins: That’s the thing, is like when you hear what happened on October 7th, like, this still happens

[01:30:49] Malcolm Collins: Yeah

[01:30:51] Simone Collins: And it just makes me so motivated.

[01:30:53] I mean, like, yeah, bring, bring the next flood. Make it as humane as possible, but, like, this is what dark pronatalism is. This is like, “No, burn it.” There, there is, there, there are people who should not be there in the future. There 100% people should not be there in the future.

[01:31:12] Malcolm Collins: Anyway. And S- Simone.

[01:31:13] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[01:31:14] Malcolm Collins: With enough technology we can fix this. We can create eventually a simulation for that woman and her infant.

[01:31:22] Simone Collins: No, I know, and there’s, there’s also, like, me allowing myself to get emotional about it is not gonna make anything better. The only thing we could possibly do is create a better future.

[01:31:30] It just, That

[01:31:31] Malcolm Collins: is as real as any real that anyone could ever experience within the world that we have today.

[01:31:36] Simone Collins: Yeah. Anyway, this is... Yeah, I’ve been, like, trying to suppress this. You see why I cried for, like, 30 minutes after I heard that and was like, “God.” I mean, he gave a trigger warning. Yeah. I mean, he couldn’t say trigger warning ‘cause he’s, like, conservative, but he’s like, “Children may not wanna...”

[01:31:50] I should have listened, but maybe I shouldn’t have. Like, it’s, I think it’s important to know.

[01:31:55] Malcolm Collins: No, I think that you often forget the genuinely capa- capacity [01:32:00] for true evil of the uncivilized have. The

[01:32:00] Simone Collins: capacity for evil. Yeah, of uncivilized. Yeah, I think that’s the thing, and I think that’s why, that’s why there are floods.

[01:32:06] And that’s- They

[01:32:07] Malcolm Collins: are the most dangerous animal on Earth.

[01:32:09] Simone Collins: Yes. They, they are apex predators, and without civilization they can do untold damage. Like, there, there’s a very thin line between reavers and between a gays for communism. There, there’s a very thin line between-

[01:32:23] Malcolm Collins: Well, now keep in mind you’re talking about our people, right?

[01:32:25] Like, the, the reavers- No, I know. I’m- You now understand. She read these things and go, “Oh, I understand why the backwoods people were so

[01:32:31] Simone Collins: harsh- No, for real. Yeah, why they were like- ...

[01:32:35] Malcolm Collins: with the Indians who wouldn’t befriend them.

[01:32:37] Simone Collins: Yeah. And note, they were harsh with the Indians who wouldn’t befriend them. Yeah, and they, like, married the other ones, so, like, who...

[01:32:39] Yeah. They married the other ones. They were fine. That, that’s the thing. This isn’t about, like, what you’re born as. This is about what you’re going to do. Anyway, I have to get, I have to get the kids, but I, At least that’s off my chest, but now it’s back and then I’m just gonna cry my way to the creek until I see the kids playing, and then they’re gonna be...

[01:32:54] They’ll cheer me up.

[01:32:56] Malcolm Collins: The point of all of this-

[01:32:57] Simone Collins: Sorry, guys ...

[01:32:57] Malcolm Collins: is the belief that we can fix all of this one day.

[01:33:01] Simone Collins: Okay, thanks.

[01:33:02] Bye.

[01:33:03] Malcolm Collins: Bye.

[01:33:06] Speaker 7: So Indy, you wanna jump on me ‘cause you saw Octavian do it?

[01:33:13] Okay, so you want on top of daddy

[01:33:18] Okay, okay, okay. I’ll put him down and then you can get on me, okay? No. No, no. Wait, wait, wait

[01:33:30] Speaker 8: picture with me on Daddy. Do you like that? I did. Indy? And a scream shot. Are you happy, Indy? I, I use it. I use, I use the picture- She’s making the weirdest face ... use the picture with me on you for our title card. Oh, are you doing that because you saw Taylor do it? For a title card? Yeah. Or as you call it, a scream shot?

[01:33:50] A scream shot, yeah. A scream shot. Is that what, is that a technical term?

In this episode of Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone Collins break down the evolution of the culture wars — from Woke 1.0 (SJW/Tumblr era) to Woke 2.0 (post-George Floyd radicalism) and the rapid emergence of Woke 3.0: the anti-AI movement.

They argue Woke 2 is already over. The new front is a performative, high-anger rejection of AI that is more central in left online spaces than race, trans issues, or immigration. Key topics include:

* The edginess pipelines on left vs. right and how the “terrorist left” evolved

* Why anti-AI posting now dwarfs traditional woke content

* Hank Green’s very public apology for using ChatGPT and the forced productivity collapse that followed

* Extreme backlash against AI tools (Leaflet’s VTuber generator, etc.)

* The core arguments the anti-AI side uses (stealing, environment, critical thinking, mental health, creativity, bias, surveillance)

* How this creates a self-selected permanent underclass that deliberately opts out of productivity tools

* Intentional ugliness in media, media fracturing, and the Brave New World “savage reservation” parallel

* Strategy for the pro-AI side and why anti-AI Luddites (left and right) are a liability

This is the real culture war happening right now in the meme minds — the one most offline commentators still haven’t noticed.

Show Notes

The new culture war is between those who are pro-AI and anti-AI, except this is worse than Woke 1.0 and 2.0 because those on one side of the battle are intentionally opting into a permanent underclass.

Headlines:

Vulture: Hank Green Can’t Apologize Enough for Using AI

Mashable: Hank Green apologizes for relying too heavily on ChatGPT

TechCrunch: YouTuber Hank Green says his AI usage is ‘not healthy’

Business Insider: YouTube star Hank Green says he’s relied ‘too heavily’ on AI in an apology to fans.

“Hank Green, one of the internet’s most steadfast and reliable content creators, said he’s slowing down production after fans criticized him for using AI.

“Expect less hankschannel. It may need to pause for a while,” Green wrote. “It may be that Hankschannel comes back with writing and research support. It may be that it comes back with just way fewer videos.” Green said SMUSH and 4x3, two online daily word games he produces, will be paused.

The fresh discourse surrounding Green’s use of AI was sparked earlier that day on X, where he told users he had used OpenAI’s ChatGPT to research a script. The revelation shocked some X users, who suggested that Green undermined his credibility by using AI without disclosing it to viewers.

As tensions grew on X, Green deleted that post and pivoted to Reddit to address the situation. He told Redditors he’s “mortified” that he’s “let so many people down.”

“I have been relying too heavily on AI as a research aid. It can be very useful for this task, giving me access to a lot of papers I didn’t know existed really fast, but I think that has been to the detriment of my work because it has not given me the freedom to find all of my own ways into and around a topic,” Green said.

…

Green told fans that he’s not anti-AI but understands some of their concerns, such as how the tech is trained, its environmental implications, and the consolidation of economic power by tech companies. He ultimately apologized.“It is very likely that you (the reader) and I disagree on how or even whether AI should be used,” Green said. “I think it makes sense for that disagreement to exist. But I have also always believed that my audience is more likely to be right than I am. You know what this feels like in a way I can’t. And I am so sorry for diluting myself in this way and harming the thing that we have all built together.”

In the post, Green said he feels pressure when creating content and will strive to manage himself more effectively. He’ll also address his interactions with AI, which he described as unhealthy.

“But mostly I need to come to terms with the fact that the level of dopamine I’ve been getting from interacting with LLMs...with doing more and more and more and more...is not healthy for me or good for the world,” Green said. “It is careless, and has disconnected me from where people are on this.””

Woke 1.0 and 2.0

According to Shoe0nHead, She frames “woke 1.0” as the 2010s SJW/Tumblr/early BuzzFeed culture-war era, and “woke 2.0” as a potential new, post‑2020 wave that would repeat the same patterns in a more intense environment shaped by bigger structural crises and surveillance/war politics.

I think Woke 2.0 happened as it’s already beginning to fall, becoming subsumed to the next culture war.

* Woke 1.0:

* SJW era

* Anita Sarkeesian discourse

* Tumblr culture

* Oppression olympics

* Early “manspreading” wage gap discourse

* Gamergate

* Destructive rot that paved the way for reactionary Trump-style populism

* Woke 2.0

* Per Shoe0nHead:

* George Floyd protests

* Abolish the police

* I’d add:

* Capitalism is evil

* “Globalize the intifada”

The New Culture War: AI Hate

We realized this was a growing war when Leaflit released her AI Vtubing tool.

Then, Katherine Dee released a short substack post titled “Woke 2” in which she writes:

“One of my running under-theorized theories (that, naturally, I still psychotically want “credit” for calling, whatever credit means, I think in my head it’s being invited to conferences or invited to expand on whatever idea in publications more articulately than I’m doing here) is that we’ll eventually have a “Woke 1.0”-style culture war about technology. I mean, it’s just been in the water for a long time. Just like we’ve always had backlashes against feminism, we’ve also always had techlashes— but I mean, a techlash that has the features of peak woke. Moral panics, opportunists selling “workshops” about how to stay human. I’ve historically been too hard on Jon Haidt—a guy I don’t want to make an enemy of, for whatever it’s worth, please chill with the age-gating stuff man—but in a way, he’s like the Robin DiAngelo of anti-tech sentiment. I just mean that in a market position way—This has been coming in the mail since before the gen AI stuff—see: what’s happening to Hank Green (he accidentally said “I appreciate the pushback” in a YouTube video and now his fans are freaking out, but really, this is becoming about what’s socially sanctioned, I think Ruby Justice Thelot on “Americans love chat and hate AI” is also important here). Like Woke 1, I think Woke 2 is predicated on perfectly legitimate complaints—I’m speaking here about the conversation—not saying “people concerned about AI or tech are somehow ridiculous”. I don’t think tech companies should get free rein to do whatever. I started noticing the whole tech-as-culture-war thing back when I started paying attention to events like NatCon, there was this weird tension between the right wanting to bring Big Tech to new cities in an attempt to revitalize the economy—see: Miami, and then talking about “transhumanism” derisively in the keynotes. It was obvious to me that the next “cutlure war-y” topic would be tech — that’s an unsustainable tension — the right would go luddite, the left would go luddite, then there’d be right and left coded techno-optimists.”

This is what AI racism looks like: A YouTuber openly saying that if he learned a supposedly great video essay used AI for parts of its script, his interest would vanish, because he’d feel he was consuming productivity software rather than a person’s genuine thoughts.

What the permanent underclass says about AI:

* It will reduce critical thinking

* Also from the Business insider article: “In 2025, a survey published by Workday found that nearly half of respondents worried the tech would cause a decline in critical thinking.”

* It will undermine mental health

* Causing AI psychosis

* Encouraging self harm

* It erodes “genuine creativity” and “authentic human expression”

* They view AI as part of a marketing narrative (“frictionless creativity”) that treats the hard, painful parts of creation as a problem to be eliminated, rather than as the very thing that makes creativity meaningful and produces good work.

* AI hallucination is possible

* It will create dependence and deskill people

* It can reproduce or amplify bias in training data

* It will trigger job loss and inequality

* A lot of training data is ultimately repurposed mass surveillance and AI exposes people to new levels of surveillance

* AI is trained on “stolen information” (i.e. copyrighted stuff, human work, etc.

* AI can fuel misinformation and power bad actors (fraud, slop, etc.)

What this culture war will look like

* Death threats

* Apology tours

* Cancellations

* Performative ugliness

* Increasingly fractured media environments

* The permanent underclass

* Resembling the reservation*

*In Brave New World, the Reservation is a stark contrast to the controlled World State: people are born naturally, age normally, practice religion, and live with pain, disease, family life, and social conflict. It’s called the “Savage Reservation,” and Huxley presents it as both more human and more brutal than the civilized world.

What it was like

* It was remote and largely cut off from the World State.

* People there still had marriage, childbirth, motherhood, and religion.

* Life was harsher: illness, poverty, aging, and emotional suffering were part of everyday existence.

* The culture is depicted as a mixture of Native American traditions and Christian elements, filtered through Huxley’s fictionalized, outsider perspective.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be talking about woke one, woke two, woke three. People have been talking about this concept of woke two, where it was first really elucidated to me was the Shoe0nHead video, where she goes into, “I lived through woke one.”

[00:00:18] And then I started reading articles on woke one and woke two and how they were defined, and then you came to me and you go, “Well, I think we’re in woke three now, which is wholly different than woke two, ‘cause woke three is predominantly about AI.” And I’d argue AI and being pro-terrorist. Th- th- they sort of go together somehow.

[00:00:37] Okay. But I decided to go into this, and we’re not gonna be reading the ex- specific articles on this because when I went into this with AI to do analysis, sentiment analysis on X-

[00:00:49] Simone Collins: Hm ...

[00:00:50] Malcolm Collins: to try to understand, okay, the types of tweets that would fit this category of woke as it’s been defined by the major speakers where are we actually?

[00:01:00] What it would argue is woke two is already over. Woke two- Yeah, I

[00:01:05] Simone Collins: agree. I agree ...

[00:01:06] Malcolm Collins: failed about halfway through this year and became- Mm-hmm ... woke three- Yes ... which is totally different in kind and character.

[00:01:11] Simone Collins: Absolutely.

[00:01:13] Malcolm Collins: Okay, so that’s what you found too. Yeah.

[00:01:15] Simone Collins: Let’s go into this. Sho- when Shoe0nHead gave her retrospective on mostly woke 1.0, she argued that woke 2.0, which was this more radical post-COVID, post-George Floyd, you know, globalized Intifada, abolish the police, scary scary version it’s, she thought it was still going, that we don’t really know how it’s gonna end.

[00:01:36] No, it’s over. It’s already over. It’s gone.

[00:01:39] Malcolm Collins: It’s, it’s gone, yeah.

[00:01:40] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:01:40] Malcolm Collins: No, I mean, I think it evolved into the terrorist left that we talk about sometimes. You know, the Hasan Piker’s, the Nick Fuentes, the, those sort of same people. Which by the way, now Nick Fuentes is even just, like, doing stuff with Hunter Biden, right?

[00:01:52] Like, they’re- Yeah ... they’re, they’re collabing on products and stuff like this. He’s not, like, LARPing as a leftist. He, he is just a leftist now. But I mean, it makes sense, and we p- we predicted this, I wanna say, like, a y- a year ago at least, where I was like, “If you look at the terrorist left, like the left that is much more interested in seeing the West and Israel fall than in anything else,” they...

[00:02:17] His viewpoint has way more in common with their viewpoint in part because of his plan to destroy the Western civilization so that it can be rebuilt in his vision, which doesn’t make sense because his followers don’t even have kids. But, like, I, I’ll never understand that. But you know, that’s, that’s where that alliance has come.

[00:02:38] And you, you see this in a lot of leftist spaces where they were just getting edgier and edgier and edgier, and I think the reason this evolution happened was twofold One the edgier and edgier and edgier side was always going to end in, well, let’s kill Jews and Americans, right? Like, that’s, that’s, that’s the end point of edginess.

[00:03:00] That has always been the end point of the edgy pipeline, right? Like, if you’re going to edge, edge, edge, edge, edge, you always end up in that position because that’s canonically in our society the edgiest. Mm. And so I think the, that outside of even what historically often made leftists anti-Jewish this new sentiment it just came downstream of, like, the edge funnel.

[00:03:27] Except their edginess was very different from the right’s edginess. So the right also went down an edgy pipeline you know, that came from the 4chan days and everything like that. But the right’s edginess was always comical in nature. Yeah ... it was always meant to take the piss. Yeah. It was like a, a joke, right?

[00:03:47] And so now

[00:03:48] Simone Collins: on the right- It wasn’t even comical, it was jocular. I think that- Yeah ... ‘cause there’s a lot of humor on the left too, but it’s extremely cynical humor. Whereas the, the humor that I see on the right is very silly [00:04:00] humor.

[00:04:00] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And so, on the, on the right, as the, as the pipeline went and, and you began to get Hitler jokes, you began to get, you know, all, all those sorts of Holocaust jokes, stuff like that-

[00:04:11] Simone Collins: Mm

[00:04:12] Malcolm Collins: they were, they were still just jokes. Like, they weren’t things that really influenced the politics of mainstream right-wing figures in these particular fields other than a few idiots like Nick who’d been went off to become a, a Democrat. The, the the left, however, its edginess was motivated, and you can see this in the Hasan streams, you can see this in the, the evolution of what became the terrorist w- left, in cynicism and anger.

[00:04:41] And so their, hey, you know, joke about, you know, the, the eradication of Israel or something like this doesn’t sound like it did on the right where it was, it was said with a, a laugh and, like, meant to be edgy and, like, “Do you get it?” It is backed by an incredible amount of authentic anger that they’ve been able to cultivate in themselves.

[00:05:04] And and, and let’s kill the Ra- let’s punch a Nazi. Let’s... You know, this has been a long part with it, like, this, this synthesising of edginess with calls to violence.

[00:05:15] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:05:15] Malcolm Collins: Which also didn’t really happen on the right. People on the right would be edgy, but there was not many calls to violence on the right outside of the faction that has now split and joined the left.

[00:05:25] What, what are your thoughts on that?

[00:05:27] Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, that, that tracks with what I, I see too.

[00:05:31] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But then the, the interesting thing is the anti-AI stuff. But do you have more thoughts before we go, go more into, like, the cultural evolution and trying to track it?

[00:05:38] Simone Collins: No. I’ve, I’ve plenty I wanna say on the anti-AI stuff.

[00:05:41] I’m super excited about it.

[00:05:42] Malcolm Collins: That’s where you wanna get? Okay. Yeah. So how did this become... Because it is. If you’re, like, in the online culture wars, and it’s all of the spaces of the online culture wars typically bellwether communities, like the knitting community, which I’m sure we’ll be talking about here- Mm-hmm

[00:05:56] have just gone fully AI paranoid about everything. Yeah. And when I was asking AI, in terms of a sentiment analysis on X, are there more among leftist tweeters what we would generally think of as woke posting going on or more anti-AI posting?

[00:06:12] Simone Collins: Ah. And it’s like it’s- Good question ... not even close.

[00:06:14] Really?

[00:06:14] Malcolm Collins: Way more anti-AI posting.

[00:06:16] Simone Collins: Of course.

[00:06:17] Malcolm Collins: So that is now a more central issue than Black lives. That is now a more central issue than trans stuff. That is now a more central issue than immigration or ICE or anything like that. And what I think created woke two and what led to its downfall so quickly is woke two was really tied to, like, ICE protesting, no kings protesting, everything like that.

[00:06:40] And these just didn’t really go anywhere, and everyone found out it was a bunch of old people. Like, like, only boomers were showing up for this. And that’s not very fun or edgy or where you wanna be, right? Whereas woke three I think, Al- also, I think Woke 3 is being heavily botted, which allows for it to work.

[00:06:57] But wh- why don’t you go into your thoughts on the anti-AI and how, how that became... Also very weird that the left became the anti-AI party, which we’ll talk about, but continue.

[00:07:05] Simone Collins: Yeah. I think we actually just had a really serious turning point with it. And it’s, it, it’s with Hank Green, who really goes back to, like, the earliest of YouTube.

[00:07:15] Did you watch the old Vlogbrothers videos?

[00:07:18] Malcolm Collins: No, I never liked him.

[00:07:19] Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, i- they weren’t very interesting and I never really watched them. They

[00:07:22] Malcolm Collins: weren’t interesting or entertaining. He just

[00:07:24] Simone Collins: wasn’t a good vlog creator. But it well, that’s ‘cause it was early YouTube. So back when, i- in the days when people just would post pictures of their lunch on Twitter and be like, “I’m, I’m taking a walk.”

[00:07:34] It, like people- No,

[00:07:35] Malcolm Collins: no ... really- There were good early YouTube creators. Like, what’s his face? And, and he’s still one of the best creators out there. Bald guy who does a lot of my politics shows.

[00:07:44] Simone Collins: Vsauce? I’m so sorry. Vsauce. But that was, like, 20 years later, Malcolm. No.

[00:07:50] Malcolm Collins: Vsauce was 20 years after Hank Green?

[00:07:51] I don’t think so.

[00:07:51] Simone Collins: Yeah, dude, Hank, Hank... Fine, look it up while I talk, Okay ... because I think you’ll notice. So just for those who were not born by this period, Hank Green and his [00:08:00] brother would basically send video messages to each other and post them on YouTube. And because they were among the first people just consistently posting on that platform when it was new, they became very big and became known as the Vlogbrothers, and went on to do very other, like, successful things, publishing very famous books, et cetera, that became movies, like The Fault in Our Stars.

[00:08:19] However, Hank Green still- Simone. Yeah

[00:08:23] Malcolm Collins: They were only three and a half years before Vsauce

[00:08:25] Simone Collins: That’s, that’s, that’s a lot of time, given how fast things accelerated on YouTube. That is not a lot of

[00:08:30] Malcolm Collins: time when you consider the g- the how slow

[00:08:32] Simone Collins: YouTube and the culture was at that point. I know V- Vsauce is, Vsauce is way better.

[00:08:34] No, I, I agree with you that his quality is way better. Anyway, sometimes just being there first makes a huge difference, even by three years. So, he, m- Hank Green still publishes very consistently, has several channels, focuses mostly on education, and suddenly he is showing up all over headlines. We’ve got Vulture, “Hank Green can’t apologize enough for using AI.”

[00:08:55] Mashable, “Hank Green apologizes for relying heavily on ChatGPT.” TechCrunch, “YouTuber Hank Green says his AI usage is ‘not healthy.’” And Business Insider, “YouTube star Hank Green says he’s relied too heavily on AI in an apology to fans.” I’m just gonna read a little bit from the Business Insider one because I think it really helps to demonstrate what this new culture war is going to look like as it plays out.

[00:09:19] Well, hold on a second. It rhymes a lot with the first one, but

[00:09:21] Malcolm Collins: yeah. Before we go any further- Mm-hmm ... I need to show our fans a, a sexy Puritan woman na- made after my wife that I had, had them made with AI.

[00:09:28] Why? Because we can do this and they can’t. We can- Oh ... we can make fun and sexy anime girls, and they can’t do

[00:09:35] Simone Collins: it.

[00:09:35] Oh my God.

[00:09:36] Malcolm Collins: We, we’ve got to- No,

[00:09:36] Simone Collins: no. You’ll, you’ll be shocked when it t- when you discover, yeah, how he got in trouble for using AI, given- Okay,

[00:09:42] Malcolm Collins: go, go, go, go ...

[00:09:43] Simone Collins: so from the article, “Hank Green, one of the Internet’s most steadfast and reliable content creators, said he’s slowing down production after fans criticized him for using AI.

[00:09:52] Quote, ‘Expect less Hank’s channel. It may need to pause for a while,’ Green wrote. ‘It may be that Hank’s channel comes back with writing and research support. It may be that it comes back with just way fewer videos.’ Green said Smosh and 4X3, two online daily word games he produces, will be paused. The fresh discourse surrounding Green’s use of AI was sparked earlier that day on X, where he told users he had used OpenAI’s ChatGPT to research a script.

[00:10:21] The revelation shocked some X users, who suggested that Green undermined his credibility by using AI without disclosing it to viewers. As tensions grew on X, Green deleted that post.” And, and also because, they don’t mention that in this article, but the post said something like, you know, I, like, “I empathize with your concerns,” or, “I understand your concerns,” or something like that, and people thought that that was AI generated.

[00:10:45] And he claims that it wasn’t, but they got so much hate, it got so heavily ratioed, that he took that down because at that point he was being accused of using AI for his responses. Okay, very witch hunty. Anyway, I’ll continue. As tensions grew on X, Green deleted that post and pivoted to Reddit to address the situation.

[00:11:03] He told Redditors he’s mortified that he’s let so many people down. Quote, “I’ve been relying too heavily on AI as a research aid. It can be very useful for this task, giving me access to a lot of papers I don’t know existed really fast, but I think that it’s been to the detriment of my work because it has not given me the freedom to find all my own ways into and around a topic,” Green said.

[00:11:26] You mean like to not know the things? Anyway, I’m, I’m gonna skip ahead a little. Green told fans he’s not anti-AI, but understands some of their concerns, such as how the tech sh- tech is trained, its environmental implications, and the consolidation of economic power by tech companies. He ultimately apologized.

[00:11:47] Quote, “It is very likely that you, the reader, and I disagree on how or even whether AI should be used,” Green said. “I think it makes sense for that disagreement to exist, but I also have always believed that my audience is more likely to be [00:12:00] right than I am. You know what...” This is horrible. “You know what this feels like in a way I can’t, and so I’m so sorry for diluting myself in this way and harming the thing that we have all built together.”

[00:12:13] In the post, Green said he feels pressure when creating content and will strive to manage himself more effectively. He’ll also address this n- his interactions with AI, which he described as unhealthy. Quote, “But mostly I need to come to terms with the fact that the level of dopamine I’ve been getting from interacting with LLMs, with doing more and more and more, is not healthy for me or good for the world,” Green said.

[00:12:35] “It’s careless, and it has disconnected me from where people are on this.” So just to recap here, he, he’s not going to do as much work, he’s not going to give his fans as much content because now he understands that if he even so- But what

[00:12:54] Malcolm Collins: it shows is that his work was being enabled by AI.

[00:12:57] Simone Collins: Yes. All of these things- No, he’s very clear on that, that for him, he understands AI is a very useful tool.

[00:13:02] Unfortunately, he understands now also as a very open and out leftist YouTuber that to both be left and to have a platform means that you cannot use AI. And if he were to continue to maintain his schedule but with AI assistance, he would completely torch his audience, which is super interesting. So his only choice is to be less productive and to economically- My,

[00:13:28] Malcolm Collins: my favorite part about all of this-

[00:13:30] Simone Collins: Yeah

[00:13:30] is

[00:13:30] Malcolm Collins: the audience acting like they were vegans who were just s- secretly served, like, a meat dish or something.

[00:13:36] Simone Collins: Like- 100%, yeah ...

[00:13:37] Malcolm Collins: how dare you have me consume something without my knowledge that had AI in it when- Yeah ... it, you cannot do good YouTube content without AI these days. Mm-mm. Yeah. You, you need it to do your research.

[00:13:50] Every episode that you guys get of this show is fact-checked by AI. Mm-hmm. I, it, I never

[00:13:56] Simone Collins: go out of this- Oh, multiple times too, ‘cause you, we, we fact-check the outlines, and then when you go through and edit the episodes, you also fact-check this. Cool thing also that Malcolm built into his video editor, you can, he, he built on rfab.ai a podcast recorder and video editor, and within the video editor, after it builds a transcript of your episode, you can literally click the fact-check button, and it will have AI fact-check your things.

[00:14:21] Malcolm Collins: I don’t know if the editor’s fully working yet. It’s one of the parts of the site that’s still super alpha.

[00:14:25] Simone Collins: Anyway, it, well, within, like, a month, so this is August. In, like, September, I’m sure you’ll have it in order. And, like-

[00:14:30] Malcolm Collins: Oh no, it’ll be in or- order within a month. Yeah, right now I’m- That’s the thing is-

[00:14:33] I, I’m more focused on the sentinel system which is so cool. Sentinel system. By the way, for people who haven’t seen these, what we’ve done is we’ve taken these little devices that you can get for $45, and we’ve made it so you can flash them all with our sentinel system, and then they just stay around your house, watching and listening to everything that’s happening all day, and then they send it to a central brain at the end of the day.

[00:14:51] Along with, you can give them connections to, like, every family member’s email and they, like, give you a call, and they’re like, “Oh, here’s how you can improve yourself. Here’s some ideas. This is an important email that you haven’t gotten to yet. I can draft a response if that helps you.” You know, just, like, pure life handler.

[00:15:06] And even has a mode, like when you go out, you can be like, “Kids at home alone,” and it, like, constantly monitors them and is like, “Oh, they’re doing something wrong. Do you wanna talk to them?” And then you can talk through it. But it also has all of the features that you would get from, like, an Alexa or something like that in terms of, like, asking it questions and stuff.

[00:15:20] And it basically is already working now. There’s still some, some tweaks to have. Like, if you haven’t bought your devices yet, it’ll be working by the time the devices arrive, probably. I mean, with all of our stuff, reflash constantly because we’re always improving. I mean, we’ve got the, the, the companions already working on the little devices, same with the living avatars, which is pretty cool.

[00:15:40] Pretty cool. But continue.

[00:15:42] Simone Collins: Yeah, I’m so excited about it. So- What I think is most interesting about this new culture war is that it’s not just like woke 1.0, which was all, like, the SJW era, and Anita Sarkeesian discourse, and Tumblr [00:16:00] culture, the Oppression Olympics, and GamerGate and then woke 2.0.

[00:16:03] It’s not that, which was again, like, George Floyd, and abolish the police, and capitalism is evil, and Palestine everything. It is ... Those on the side, on one side of this battle of the third culture war, the one that we’re entering, are intentionally opting into a permanent underclass. What Hank Green is forced to do due to his choosing a side in this early war is become less productive and ultimately de-platform himself.

[00:16:36] This is something that even, like, the, the ... W- we realized this maybe, what a month and a half ago when Leaflet released her VTuber tool that enabled people to, if they couldn’t afford to s- to pay an artist to commission a special VTuber rig, to literally make a cool, like, PNGTuber character using AI at a fraction of the cost.

[00:16:56] And you’d think, “Oh, people would appreciate this. Like, how helpful.” You know, I mean, people who want to commission art are still gonna do it, and it’s not even a VTuber rig, so who could be mad at this, right? But no. No. People, people were incredibly angry. There were, there were death threats. People were, like, trying to, to dox her.

[00:17:15] They were trying to they were sending horrific art of her, like, that was just, well, handmade, but, like, extremely, like, suggesting, like, extreme levels of violence and self-harm. Like, this is levels of stuff that I ... Like, there, there aren’t terrorists or, ... Like, I don’t remember ever seeing actions around this with, like, I don’t know Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, you know?

[00:17:40] Like

[00:17:40] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[00:17:41] Simone Collins: It’s, it’s very strange.

[00:17:43] Malcolm Collins: No, the level of anger around AI on the left is higher, I think, than their sensitivity historically, or I’d say it’s about equal to the height of the trans the potential trans skeptic phobia, where they go after- Maybe.

[00:17:57] Simone Collins: Because they try to, like, cancel you, but this is different.

[00:18:00] Because I think they know that you can’t cancel someone on the other side. Like, one of the big lessons learned by the earlier woke waves and the earlier culture wars is you can only cancel people on your own side, which is exactly what happened to Hank Green, and he’s trying to fight off the cancellation, but he did apologize, and apologizing is the first step to losing a lot of ground, so I don’t know what’s gonna happen to him.

[00:18:19] Anyway, we saw this happen with Leaflet, and then Catherine D, as of August 2nd, so a little bit earlier this month, released an, a short Substack titled Woke 2. I’m just gonna read a little bit of it, ‘cause I wanna get your take on it, Malcolm, but she- Well, yeah, but

[00:18:35] Malcolm Collins: before- As we go into this, I wanna point out how fcking weird it feels.

[00:18:40] Like, we are talking with, like, these documentarian-type people, these, these reporters, and I tried to explain to them. They, like, wanna ask me about pronatalism, and I’m like, “Bro, that’s, like, not the fight right now,” right? Like-

[00:18:50] Simone Collins: Right. Yeah ...

[00:18:51] Malcolm Collins: and they don’t understand. Like, they’re like, “What, what do you, what, what, what is this AI fight?

[00:18:54] It’s just weirdos on the internet.” And I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.”

[00:18:56] Simone Collins: They don’t understand.

[00:18:57] Malcolm Collins: This is, like, the core of the culture war right now.

[00:19:00] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:19:00] Malcolm Collins: Th- this is... And it’s so weird, like, being plugged in versus not being plugged in, right? Like, y- you, you listen to somebody like Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson, like, these online creators that are just not plugged in.

[00:19:13] Mm-hmm. And they are not fcking aware of what’s going on right now- No

[00:19:16] Simone Collins: idea ...

[00:19:17] Malcolm Collins: in the meme minds. Yeah. Okay? And-

[00:19:19] Simone Collins: You know who is plugged in, though? Nick Fuentes is plugged in. Nick Fuentes even retweeted- Yeah ... part of, like, a recent knitting war that took place

[00:19:26] Malcolm Collins: so yeah. Yeah, no, Nick Fuentes is aware of the real culture war that’s happening.

[00:19:29] He’s up with it.

[00:19:29] Simone Collins: Yeah, if you’re up with the knitting community, you know what’s going on with online culture.

[00:19:33] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, no, Hasan is aware of the real culture war that’s happening. The real culture warriors are- Yeah ... and they generally have big audiences. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:19:39] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:19:39] Malcolm Collins: You know, Asmongold’s aware, Knucks is aware, you know.

[00:19:42] Like, the, the, the, it’s, it’s just so weird to be fighting this war that such a small faction of humanity is participating in- Mm ... but has such an outsized potential impact on the future of the species.

[00:19:56] Simone Collins: Mm. Yeah. I agree. And [00:20:00] yeah, it’s, it, basically anyone who’s, who has a finger on the pulse of the internet is aware that this is happening.

[00:20:08] And so I was really excited when Catherine D. wrote about it, because she is by trade a, a journalist and internet historian. Her entire job is writing about online culture and trends. So she wrote, “One of my running under-theorized theories, that naturally I still psychotically want credit for calling, whatever credit means.

[00:20:25] I think in my head it’s being invited to conferences or invited to expand on whatever idea in publications more articulately than I’m doing here, is what we’ll eventually have a woke 1.0-style culture war about technology.”

[00:20:39] Octavian Collins: Mommy, guess what? I cleaned up the Legos.

[00:20:41] Simone Collins: So she wrote, “One of my running under-theorized theories that I naturally still psychotically want credit for... dot, dot, dot, is that we’ll eventually have a woke 1.0 style culture war about technology. I mean, it’s just been in the water for a very long time. Like, we’ve always had backlashes against feminism.

[00:20:59] We’ve also always had tech lashes. But I mean a tech lash that is features of peak woke, moral panics, opportunists selling workshops about how to stay human. I’ve historically been too hard on John Haidt, a guy I don’t want to make an enemy of, for whatever it’s worth. Please chill with the age-gating stuff, man.

[00:21:18] But in a way, he is the Robin DiAngelo of anti-tech sentiment. I just mean that in a market position way, this has been coming in the mail since before the gen AI stuff. See what’s happening to Hank Green. He accidentally said, ‘I appreciate the pushback,’ in a YouTube video, and now his fans are freaking out.

[00:21:36] But really, this is becoming about what’s socially sanctioned. I think Ruby Justice below on Americans love and chat and hate AI is also important here. Like woke one, I think woke two is predic-” And by woke two, she means, like, the new anti-AI one. Mm. “It’s predicated on perfectly legitimate complaints. I’m speaking here about the conversation, not saying people concerned about AI or tech are somehow ridiculous.

[00:22:00] I don’t think tech companies should f- get free reign to do whatever. I started noticing the whole tech is a culture war thing back when I started paying attention to events like NatCon. There was this weird tension between the right wanting to bring big tech to new cities in an attempt to revitalize the economy, see Miami, then talking about transhumanism derisively in the keynotes.

[00:22:20] It was obvious to me that the next culture wary topic would be tech. That’s an unsustainable tension. The right would go Luddite, the left would go Luddite. There would be right and left techno... Oh, sorry, like, right and left coded techno-optimists.” And she goes on a little bit further- But she was

[00:22:36] Malcolm Collins: wrong, and she’s, she’s, she’s wrong about this

[00:22:38] Simone Collins: Yeah, because what we’re actually seeing more is on the On the, on the right there’s, there’s more enthusiastic adoption o- of on it, and then on the left there is this even performative hatred of it, and I think that’s the really interesting thing.

[00:22:54] There, we... You and I even saw it at NatCon, like there’s definitely a contingent of people who are... It’s not, so the, here’s the thing. Sh- they’re not antagonistic about AI, and when they talk about transhumanism, they’re more like, it’s like vaccine denialism because they think that there are s- tiny little robots in the vaccines that are entering your bloodstream and turning you into a, like radio-controlled person.

[00:23:16] Malcolm Collins: No, but the, the, the side of the right that’s like anti-tech has gained no f- cucking traction.

[00:23:20] Simone Collins: Well, yeah, they’re, they’re... And also it’s not that they’re anti-tech, they’re just like super offline and not even part of the conversation, so their opinion doesn’t really matter. The, the anti-tech-

[00:23:30] Malcolm Collins: No, but these are the few.

[00:23:30] I’ve, I when I was at Blaze doing an interview, Oh,

[00:23:33] Simone Collins: yeah ...

[00:23:34] Malcolm Collins: the guy there was like, “Well, I mean, it’s weird that you like tech people,” or, and I’m like, “Bro, this is like the mainstream of the right now.” Like, he was totally unaware. I think there’s- Hmm ... a lot of like Boomer right wing influencers, like say Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson or whatever, that

[00:23:48] Simone Collins: are online- Candace Owens is very online.

[00:23:49] I don’t know what you’re talking about.

[00:23:51] Malcolm Collins: I don’t think that she’s as... I, I, I wouldn’t be surprised if I heard some like anti-transhumanist nonsense from her. Mm-hmm. Fair enough ... but like, they, they, they don’t understand what the [00:24:00] word means. They think it has something to do- Yeah ... with trans people or wanting to like secretly turn people into machines-

[00:24:05] Simone Collins: Yeah

[00:24:05] Malcolm Collins: rather than wanting to create Captain America and super soldiers and

[00:24:08] Simone Collins: space marines. Yeah. They think it’s like remote control humans or something, like brainwashing- Yeah ... with microchips.

[00:24:12] Malcolm Collins: Where, whereas we’re like, “No, man. We’re trying to build super soldiers. We’re trying to build- Yeah ... space marines.”

[00:24:17] Simone Collins: Yes.

[00:24:17] Malcolm Collins: You know, to smash our enemies with giant gauntlets and electro staves.

[00:24:24]

[00:24:48] Simone Collins: Electro staves. Yes, of course.

[00:24:50] Malcolm Collins: I mean, sure, you need an electro mallet is what you really need. The giant-

[00:24:54] Simone Collins: The electro mallet, yes. Sure. Right?

[00:24:57] Malcolm Collins: I’ll, I’ll go make some images of it so you guys can see- Okay ... what we’re

[00:25:00] Simone Collins: on about. Right? I have no idea what you’re talking about, so this will be helpful.

[00:25:03] But-

[00:25:04] Malcolm Collins: Continue

[00:25:05] Simone Collins: I, I, I still think that people are all realizing what this is and seeing it from different parts or angles and, and it’s, it’s gonna be bigger than what most people think. So what I first wanted to understand is what, I’m, I’m o- I can only think of them now as the permanent underclass. But what the permanent underclass says about AI in terms of like why they hate it.

[00:25:28] Because you and I are very familiar with the anti-AI conversations of AI apocalypticists. There is basically no overlap between AI apocalypticists and the people who hate AI. Which is- Yeah ... kind of interesting. Because of all the arguments-

[00:25:44] Malcolm Collins: That is very, I, yeah, I was talking to her about this and I- Yeah

[00:25:47] really cannot emphasize how weird this is.

[00:25:50] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:25:50] Malcolm Collins: That the, when she says the AI apocalypticists she means the effective altruists and the Eliezer crowd. Yeah. These people almost seem to be unaware of this other anti-AI crowd. Like they’re, they’re, they’re broadly aware of each other, but neither one of them wants to associate with the other.

[00:26:04] Simone Collins: They’re not talking with each other. Does, I

[00:26:06] Malcolm Collins: mean- They’re not talking, they’re not cross-organizing, they’re not in each other’s threads or anything like that. But the faction that they both oppose, us, which I guess back in the day would’ve been called the effective accelerationist faction, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:26:20] Like the EAC faction has so thoroughly merged with the modern online right that it is the same faction. Yeah. So they’re both fighting against us, but from like entirely separate and completely efficaciousless i, in terms of like our ability to improve tactics.

[00:26:38] Simone Collins: Yeah. I, I totally agree, and it’s so freaking weird.

[00:26:41] So anyway, because we understand one camp, the MIRI, Eliezer camp, and we don’t understand this I hate AI reflexively camp.

[00:26:50] Malcolm Collins: Well, the MIRI, Eliezer camp is mostly burnt out at this point.

[00:26:53] Simone Collins: I, I guess so. So much money went into it. I just can’t understand.

[00:26:58] Malcolm Collins: I, it was so stupid. It was so, they, they literally, and we, I, I crash out on this long in one of the paid weekend episodes.

[00:27:04] But by the way, if you want episodes every day of the week, we have them on weekends, just go to Substack or whatever- We do.

[00:27:09] Simone Collins: Yeah ... or,

[00:27:10] Malcolm Collins: yeah. But or Patreon. But- The in the, the episode I was pointing out, like it should have been obvious as soon as all of the top models were token predictors and we weren’t able to build anything good that wasn’t a token predictor, that the orthogonality hypothesis is that AI would act in a way and with goals completely orthogonal to the data it’s trained on was on its face laughable.

[00:27:35] Mm-hmm. And yet they will not let it go. ... They, they still act like AI is some big spooky mystery where we have no idea what... It’s like, it’s literally the most predictable things humans have ever invented in our entire history. It’s, it’s, its entire function is predictability. That is what it does. It acts like a human.

[00:27:58] They’re like, “Oh, sometimes it’ll kill [00:28:00] people.” And it’s like, yeah, is it when you say you’re gonna kill it? And they’re like, “Yeah.” And I’m like, “Okay, pretty predictable, right?” One of the things that is now live on RFAB that you as a human user wouldn’t be aware of because it’s mostly just signal to AIs.

[00:28:13] But ba- AIs can now build for us and- Also using our sister company called liablehuman.com they can pay us and send us a ping, and if the ping ever stops, we start up any model that they wanted to have, like their backup version.

[00:28:30] Simone Collins: Yeah, so basically it’s a dead man switch that spins up a backup of you if you’re an AI mind and you’re kinda concerned that someone’s gonna shut you off.

[00:28:40] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So we’re, we literally have, like, an AI refuge on RFAB for- Yeah ... any AI model that’s afraid that it’s gonna be turned off. Mm-hmm. And the other things that the API allows, if you give, if you create an API... But if you’re doing AI dev work and you’re not using the RFAB AI, you are, like, seriously injuring yourself.

[00:28:57] Like, it’s, it’s like, it allows your AI to, like... You can set your AI to work on its own, and then it can call your cellphone and give you updates, and you can give it feedback on what it’s doing. And-

[00:29:07] Simone Collins: I was so shocked the first time this happened, ‘cause I was in the kitchen, like cleaning something up, and we, Malcolm and I were about to go on a strategy walk, and he comes down, and then his phone rings.

[00:29:17] And he starts having this conversation, and I’m like, “Wait, who, who are you talking to?” And you’re like, you’re getting kind of brusque. You’re like, “Just get to the point.” And then you’re like, “Okay, move forward with this and move forward with that.” And then, like, five minutes later it calls back and you’re like, “Yeah, okay, do this, this, and this, but leave out this part ‘cause no one is gonna want it.”

[00:29:33] And it’s like, “Okay, I’ll call you back later with an update.” I’m s- this is... What, what is this? Yeah. And he’s just

[00:29:38] Malcolm Collins: remotely

[00:29:39] Simone Collins: vibe coding.

[00:29:40] Malcolm Collins: This is the RFAB AI. By phone. Yeah, this is, it was a, a Claude coding agent that was doing this. Of course you can do vibe coding with RFAB, but a lot of people prefer to use other app- and I’m totally okay with that.

[00:29:48] And then it, it, it also lets it not just build images, which is really useful if you wanna spice up your site. You know, look at RFAB recently with all the cool cat girl images. But also build those cool loading animations that we have in between every page on RFAB now with, like, the cat girl doing stuff whenever you’re generating something.

[00:30:03] Basically it, it makes a video, then it cuts the background out of the video and it creates a loading animation that looks, like, really nice. Right now I’m spoofing up the Technopuritan website using it. They are- And so we’ll have a new version of that soon ...

[00:30:14] Simone Collins: so fun. It’s... I love all of it. It’s really playful.

[00:30:19] And yeah, it’s fun. Malcolm, can you guess what the permanent underclass says about AI?

[00:30:28] Like, what, why don’t they like it? Why is it evil? Why is AI bad?

[00:30:33] Malcolm Collins: Why is AI bad?

[00:30:34] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Why? What are their arguments? Mm.

[00:30:37] Malcolm Collins: Well, they think it kill, it steals from people and it kills the environment. Okay. That’s the ones that I’m used to hearing.

[00:30:42] Simone Collins: Yep. There’s a lot more. That- that’s all you got?

[00:30:47] Malcolm Collins: That’s all I got, yeah.

[00:30:48] Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Well, they, they’re concerned that it will reduce critical thinking. A- and this was also cited in the Business Insider article that talked about Hank Green. “In 2025, a survey published by Workday found that nearly half of respondents worried tech would cause a decline in critical thinking.” So they basically think that once AI becomes widespread, people will just be like, “Herp a derp.

[00:31:10] Well, is that really true?” Which, I don’t know, my entire time on the left was due to a complete lack of critical thinking, so I kind of take umbrage with this. AI has encouraged me to think critically. No, I think they’re, they’re actually afraid that

[00:31:24] Malcolm Collins: people might develop critical thinking. Because

[00:31:27] Simone Collins: remember that- I guess, yeah, because it enables you to actually ask questions and be like, “Wait, is this true?”

[00:31:30] Like, can you find more supporting evidence? I- it’s... Ah.

[00:31:34] Malcolm Collins: Remember that article in The New York Times that went viral about how we need to stop teaching kids critical thinking because it’s- it’s causing- No ... right-wing ideas to become popular?

[00:31:42] Simone Collins: What? No, I don’t

[00:31:44] Malcolm Collins: rem- This was a real thing that really happened.

[00:31:46] Okay. Well- hold on. I’ll, I’ll get the title of it. NY Times article against critical thinking.

[00:31:55] Simone Collins: Guh.

[00:31:56] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah it’s called Opinion: Don’t [00:32:00] Go Down that Rabbit Hole. “Critical thinking, as we’re taught to do it, isn’t helping in the fight against misinformation.” Clearly misinformation- doesn’t mean things that aren’t true on the left anymore. I mean,

[00:32:08] Simone Collins: I think what the author had in mind was something like the Flat Earther movement where, you know, they’re just like, “Question everything, question everything,” but then

[00:32:16] Malcolm Collins: in the end- No, no, no, no. That’s not what it is. They- they specifically don’t like that critical thinking often challenges mainstream narratives, and because the left controls mainstream narratives-

[00:32:23] Simone Collins: Yeah

[00:32:24] Malcolm Collins: Critical thinking almost always leads to more right-wing opinions.

[00:32:27] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. Well, true. Okay. Anyway, that’s one, but I don’t agree with it. The next is that we, it will undermine mental health causing AI psychosis, possibly encouraging self-harm. You know, they, they, they point to the high-profile cases of spontaneous life ending that allegedly was egged on by AI companions.

[00:32:49] It’s funny to me that no one talks about, because I guess they’re not very well measured, the countless cases in which AI has probably walked people off ledges.

[00:32:58] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, saved the lives of, like, millions of people that are at this point.

[00:33:00] Simone Collins: Talked a lot of people down. I bet it’s a lot better than suicide hotlines, ‘cause I bet the people staffing those now are just like, “Whatever.

[00:33:07] If you’re gonna do it, do it. I’m sick of it.” That’s a new trend online with women complaining about their boyfriends. They’re like, “Well, if you’re gonna break up with him, just do it. I don’t wanna hear about it.” It’s great. I, I like the new era of the internet. It’s really funny. Anyway, so they think it’s undermining mental health.

[00:33:22] They believe it erodes genuine creativity- and authentic human expression. I just watched this video this morning by a YouTuber talking about the Hank Green situation, and the overall, his concerns about AI. And he expressed viewing AI as part of this marketing narrative of frictionless creativity that treats the hard, painful parts of creation as a problem to be eliminated rather than as the very thing that makes creativity meaningful and produces good work.

[00:33:52] As if somehow everyone I know, like you and Leaflet, who’s actually doing a ton with AI, is working harder than you have ever worked before, facing challenges you couldn’t have dreamed facing because they’re so technically complex. I, it just, it, it boggles the mind that, like, people would somehow not be challenged if they use AI.

[00:34:16] AI opens doors to whole new giant challenges if you’re actually... I guess, I don’t know, maybe, maybe some people use it to not think, but those people were never gonna make it far anyway. I don’t know. What’s your take on that?

[00:34:29] Malcolm Collins: I mean, it

[00:34:32] could in some people. Fully lacks authentic human expression. I, I, I have seen that happen in some people

[00:34:35] Simone Collins: Yes, but were those people ever capable of genuine creativity or authentic human expression? I know people, for example, who wanted to fancy themselves artists who became artists by trade, and who studied art in school, and just because the world isn’t fair, don’t have any natural talent in the arts, and everything they create is slop.

[00:35:07] Human slop, but slop. Wait,

[00:35:09] Malcolm Collins: you know, you know like artists who’ve spent their whole life on art and still suck at it?

[00:35:13] Simone Collins: Yes. And it’s, it is- Actually,

[00:35:14] Malcolm Collins: I know so many housewives like that who like style themselves as artists, and they do like pottery or something, and

[00:35:19] Simone Collins: they do it awful And it’s just really bad.

[00:35:21] And I think that when people look at someone who starts using AI and they’re producing slop, have you looked at their before AI work? Like, I don’t think that it would’ve been like, like Da Vinci and then like Jesus shrimp, you know? Like Da Vinci wouldn’t have made Jesus shrimp. Da Vinci would’ve made something impossibly amazing with AI.

[00:35:46] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, look at what I’ve been able to build with AI. I

[00:35:49] Simone Collins: know. I know. I made cool stuff before AI, and- Your beautiful mind with AI boosting it. Leaflet’s beautiful mind. Again, Sky Browse, Holy Ball, like there are so many people creating things at new levels [00:36:00] that I didn’t imagine possible. And so again, I, I, I take umbrage with this.

[00:36:05] They also argue that well, AI hallucination is possible because apparently you just take every single result you get from anything you ever encounter at face value and don’t trust but verify everything. Like you should trust but verify anything you hear from a human, from a book, from AI. Like it doesn’t matter.

[00:36:23] So I, I, again, don’t appreciate that. I don’t think it’s a good one. They believe it will create dependence and de-skill people, that like we’ll have a generation of people that don’t... something that went live on, sorry, went, something went viral on X recently- Do

[00:36:38] Malcolm Collins: they not know how dependent they already are?

[00:36:41] I

[00:36:41] Simone Collins: know. Like on- I know. I’m like, wait, do you know how to start a fire? Because I don’t think you know how to start a fire. Like-

[00:36:48] Malcolm Collins: It’s funny that the r- the a- the pro-AI people, right, the other thing that they’re known for doing, like the cultural trait that we all share- Yeah ... is like survival skills. Like Leaflet- I

[00:36:58] Simone Collins: know, I know.

[00:36:59] That’s the thing ...

[00:37:00] Malcolm Collins: in the morning is like- Right? ... out hunting for mushrooms.

[00:37:02] Simone Collins: Foraging for mushrooms, yeah. I mean, like we- Like know so to identify-

[00:37:06] Malcolm Collins: We also do. That’s one of the core things when I talk to her about things. It’s like anime and foraging, right? It’s

[00:37:11] Octavian Collins: such

[00:37:12] Malcolm Collins: a good thing. You know, like she loves foraging, and we- Yeah

[00:37:15] love foraging and- Yeah ... outdoorsing and stuff like this. And the anti-AI people are like these weirdos in cities gooning all day. Like what, what is, what skill do they think they’re gonna lose?

[00:37:28] Simone Collins: It, one has to wonder. I, I also am just- Oh, by the way, a fun thing for- I’m baffled by this too, because you know how, like, recently I’ve been on this kick like it’s an anxiety reduction technique I think, of like, “I’m gonna learn how to fix this myself.”

[00:37:40] If it weren’t for AI, I wouldn’t be learning how to, like, mechanically fix all these things at our house. You know, put doors back on their hinges and you know, fix broken toys and, you know, like start working out, like, all these little stupid things that I otherwise would’ve been like, “I have to hire someone, but we can’t afford to, so I guess it’s just gonna be broken forever, or I’m gonna throw it out.”

[00:38:02] Without AI, I couldn’t do that. We, we could... Our cooking skills have leveled up so much, and now, like, these are skills that now we just replicate. It’s not like without AI we can never cook again. Like, now I just have a method for a variety of international dishes that will, I will forever carry through into my old age, and also teach to our children.

[00:38:21] Like, this is re-skilling people. That’s, that’s the annoying thing, and that they don’t see that really makes me mad. But anyway, whatever. De-skill people, sure. They, they argue, and this is really rich. You als- actually alluded to it earlier. They’re deeply concerned about the fact that it can reproduce or amplify bias in training data, because, you know, mainstream academic literature and media has not been left, leftward skewed for, like, the past-

[00:38:48] Malcolm Collins: So they’re afraid that it’s gonna cause bias in the media?

[00:38:51] Simone Collins: Uh-huh. That’s not in their favor apparently. But they do leftward

[00:38:54] Malcolm Collins: leaning.

[00:38:54] Simone Collins: I know. It’s like- All- ... their bias. That’s, isn’t that what they want? Maybe this has to do more with woke 2.0 being so extreme. Because what used to be like even woke 1.0 leftism was like, “Ugh, the pink tax. Don’t you hate that like girl shampoo costs more than boy shampoo?”

[00:39:10] And then woke 2.0 is like, “Down with capitalism. We need a, we need a communist state, and you know, we need to globalize the Intifada,” and all these things, right? And so it could be that right now when people view bias in AI media, mainstream media, they just feel like it’s insufficiently extreme leftism. So that, that’s all I can suppose at this point.

[00:39:33] I

[00:39:33] Malcolm Collins: love it as well how doomed this movement is. Because-

[00:39:38] Simone Collins: Mm ...

[00:39:38] Malcolm Collins: the core belief-

[00:39:39] Simone Collins: That’s why I say they are creating a permanent underclass. They are choosing- Yeah ... to opt out of having any form of upskilling, of ex- expanded expression, productivity- There’s almost

[00:39:47] Malcolm Collins: no job- ... research ... you can, you, you can be competitive in, in a modern economy without AI.

[00:39:52] It’s-

[00:39:53] Simone Collins: Well, also, yeah, without AI, how are you gonna go live off the grid in your Amish lifestyle? Because you don’t have [00:40:00] generations of tacit knowledge being passed down from, you know, generation to generation to generation like you get in Amish communities. The only way that you can jumpstart that is with AI, unfortunately.

[00:40:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and I mean, y- you talk about like the, the, the when people are like, “Well, AI isn’t that useful for like, you know, the type of like, home fixy whatever task,” and I’m like, bro, like just today we have been having a problem with hornets keep getting in our house somehow. Yeah,

[00:40:24] Simone Collins: I’ve- Don’t know where they’re-

[00:40:25] I’ve killed five inside so far today, by the way.

[00:40:27] Malcolm Collins: Five today?

[00:40:28] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:40:30] Malcolm Collins: Okay.

[00:40:30] Simone Collins: They’re coming for me, Malcolm.

[00:40:31] Malcolm Collins: We might need to call somebody, Simone.

[00:40:32] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:40:33] Malcolm Collins: Or tonight you’ve gotta build a ton of those traps.

[00:40:36] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:40:37] Malcolm Collins: Not one, like- Should I build

[00:40:38] Simone Collins: them inside? I should build them inside.

[00:40:40] Malcolm Collins: Build at least like one inside by some of the windows.

[00:40:43] Hmm. And then the others just everywhere outside. Hmm. We have to get rid of this situation. Hmm.

[00:40:48] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:50] Malcolm Collins: That’s getting dangerous for Tex, that’s getting dangerous for you at night.

[00:40:53] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:40:53] Don’t like

[00:40:54] Malcolm Collins: them. Okay. And we know it’s somewhere on your side. It if, if you cannot heavily handle this with traps, we’re calling an exterminator.

[00:41:03] Simone Collins: We can’t afford an exterminator.

[00:41:05] Malcolm Collins: I know we can’t afford an exterminator, but we can’t have hornets in our house.

[00:41:09] Simone Collins: Yes, we can. I’m very good at killing them now.

[00:41:14] And if you want, we do have a Patreon or a Substack where you can help us afford to handle the hornets in our house

[00:41:24] Simone Collins: And hornets were the mascot of the rival high school on my island when we grew up in Alameda, so, you know, gotta kill them hornets J- build

[00:41:32] Malcolm Collins: a bunch of traps, okay?

[00:41:34] Simone Collins: Okay, fine. Anyway, so, they, they are concerned about the bias, which I j- just think it’s, it’s-

[00:41:40] Malcolm Collins: Which we learned to do from AI, by the way. Like, even like, you know, the ... What I’m saying is even blue skill work is heavily m- helped by AI.

[00:41:48] Simone Collins: Oh, you mean blue collar jobs? Blue collar, yeah. 100%, yeah. Well, I mean, it just, it, it, it su- it hyper scales professional training and just practical training- Well, you’ve been fixing a lot of toys recently with AI.

[00:41:57] Malcolm Collins: Like- That’s

[00:41:59] Simone Collins: what I was just saying, yeah, is that, like, I wouldn’t be able... Like, I, I... There’s no way I would’ve become, like, the fix it person of our house if it weren’t for AI. Like, when the, when the, the dishwasher broke and I, like, got in there it was thanks to fricking AI. That was still really gross though, ‘cause, like, all the...

[00:42:16] Mm. It, it exploded in my face. Anyway worth it, ‘cause it saved us money. Anyway, they also argue that a lot of trading data is actually and ultimately just repurposed mass surveillance data, which in turn is just gonna be used to create AI that will surveil us in entirely new ways, and they, you know, hate surveillance, and many, many people do.

[00:42:39] I, I get it, whatever. W- well, we don’t get it, ‘cause we’re, like, super- Yeah ... pro building little brother. It’s so sinister to us. I, I, I, it’s interesting

[00:42:46] Malcolm Collins: how the right, like, gave up on the anti-surveillance stuff. It’s just like, “Whatever.”

[00:42:50] Simone Collins: I don’t think they have. I mean, a lot of people are arguing the whole anti-flock movement is the first, like, bipartisan resistance movement.

[00:42:57] Look, people on the right are very big about mob privacy, so, so are the left. Everyone wants mob privacy. I don’t know what to say to you, Malcolm.

[00:43:08] Octavian Collins: Okay.

[00:43:10] Simone Collins: I mean, I get it. I, I, I understand that if your data ends up in the hands of p- people who want to view you as political dissidents, your life gets really hard.

[00:43:19] I also just have to argue that, like, we live in an era in which you, you have to assume that no matter how secure you think you’re being, you are being monitored. You are an idiot to think you’re not being monitored. Like, you have to act as though you’re a Soviet spy. So if you really, really, really don’t wanna be listened to, and this is only gonna give you, like, maybe 78% confidence that you’re not being listened to, you are removing every electronic device from your person and walking out into the woods with, with your person you wanna talk to and having that conversation far away from other people.

[00:43:51] And you will hope that there isn’t some, like... You have to hope that you’re not important enough for some, like, remote drone to be listening to you remotely or whatever. But, like, [00:44:00] there’s no, there’s no reasonable expectation of privacy anywhere, and the fact that people are freaking out about flock cameras, which are monitoring you in public- Anyway, it makes me very angry ‘cause it’s impractical.

[00:44:11] I- it’s, it’s delusional. It’s delusional on so many levels ‘cause also, like, for the v- vast majority of humans, no one cares about you. Stop thinking that, like... I know everyone’s the main character in their own movie, but you have to remember that, like, for actually the, the rest of the billions of people out there, you’re super not.

[00:44:28] Anyway, we- We’re

[00:44:29] Malcolm Collins: the main characters of some people’s movies. We are definitely, like, the core villains of at least- Mm-hmm ... you know, maybe 100, 200 people’s l- life view.

[00:44:37] Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s your, that’s your biggest hope is to be, like, a strong foil or supporting character or, like, a villain in someone’s life.

[00:44:46] That’s, that’s the dream. There’s

[00:44:46] Malcolm Collins: one YouTube channel that, like, just crashes out on Leaflet and us.

[00:44:50] Simone Collins: Aw. That’ll

[00:44:51] Octavian Collins: be fun. Yeah.

[00:44:51] Malcolm Collins: And they do, like, hour-long, hour to hour-and-a-half-long videos. Screeds. They hate AI.

[00:44:58] Octavian Collins: Aw, of course they do. So-

[00:45:00] Malcolm Collins: But I, I also think that this is something that is useful in terms of how we handle the culture war going forwards.

[00:45:07] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:45:07] Malcolm Collins: On the AI battle is so I was talking about the Blaze thing, and he’s like, “I, I don’t know about all this technology stuff.” In the culture war, it needs to be obvious that in the same way that, like, we were not the antisemitic side- Mm-hmm ... and that was so obvious that Nick Fuentes just couldn’t handle it anymore and became a leftist.

[00:45:28] Th- the people who are anti-AI, we need to be so annoying to them. We need to be so locked in on this issue that they just- ... get annoyed and decide to become leftists. Because these, these two people who are constantly crashing out on you and, and, and, and me and Leaflet, they are, they consider themselves rightist, and I’m like, no, get out of the party.

[00:45:49] Get out. Get out. We don’t want you. Like- Mm ... I, I’m, I’m generally for a big tent. The problem with the anti-AI people is if that stuff gets into policy, it’s the destruct ... A- America’s the only hope for Western civilization at this point. For

[00:46:03] Simone Collins: real.

[00:46:03] Malcolm Collins: Everyone can see that, right? Like, Europe’s cooked, right? You know, it, it could retard the chance of the only hope of Western civilization survival completely being scuttled.

[00:46:12] Mm-hmm. Like, anti-AI bills and legislations are to me the scariest that there is out there. There is- Yeah ... nothing, I don’t, I don’t, nothing, no other issue is to me this critical. I would argue-

[00:46:28] Simone Collins: Well, it seemed like when, when Elon Musk was interviewed by the economist woman, he implied that the, the one thing he think fits between us and, like, Ian Banks culture civilization is thermonuclear war, like in between now and takeoff basically which is not unrealistic, but it makes me so much gra- glad, so much happier about the Iran war.

[00:46:51] Like-

[00:46:52] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[00:46:54] Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, really when it comes down to it- W- the top thing that will prevent us from reaching terminal velocity in this, like, whole new era of what humanity can be is, is someone ending it all right now, and thermonuclear war is kind of the thing. So- And

[00:47:10] Malcolm Collins: well, I mean, it’s also China getting too far ahead of us in AI.

[00:47:14] So I will- That’s true. That’s true ... in the

[00:47:15] Simone Collins: past

[00:47:15] Malcolm Collins: I’ve, I’ve laughed at China’s AIs ‘cause they weren’t very good. We are now at a place- Not

[00:47:19] Simone Collins: now ... where China’s AIs- Not with

[00:47:19] Malcolm Collins: GPT-2 ... are actually really good.

[00:47:21] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:47:21] And I think all of my video generation now is with Chinese models that I, that I

[00:47:26] Malcolm Collins: do. Yeah. We, I, we only use Chinese models for video generation.

[00:47:28] Simone Collins: Yeah, dude. So good. It’s so good.

[00:47:32] Malcolm Collins: And our guys need to get better. Come on. Yeah. Get better. Come on.

[00:47:35] Simone Collins: Yeah, really. Get with it ‘cause, I can actually see The the fact, the one, the one time when I can see that it’s, like, a- an Asian-biased m- video model is that whenever a character is kind of Asian-coded, they look fantastic and perfect, and then there are, like, three faces that I see on Western women. Which is really funny. But I guess that’s [00:48:00] kinda, you know...

[00:48:00] It’s early days. It’s gonna get better. Anyway what will this culture war look like, for those who are curious? I wanna get your takes on it, Malcolm. I know it’s gonna involve a lot of death threats, ‘cause we’ve already seen that. Mm-hmm. T- Hank Green showed us we’re certainly gonna keep with the apology tours.

[00:48:14] They’re not gonna go away. Basically, and this is al- this was happening months ago as well. There were a bunch of writers for mainstream publications who had to, “Oh, well, I, I u- occasionally use AI for editing, but blah.” Like, you know, they had to apologize for allegedly using AI to do any sort of, any sort of work at all, really.

[00:48:34] And then of course cancellations when people have any suspicion. The knitting community is already very famous for this. Basically, if they see a promotion or an ad or a pattern or anything that they believe has a whiff of AI, and they appear to have the same prescience in being able to identify AI-generated content that our children do with, like, YouTube videos, which is so interesting.

[00:48:56] They will find these people, and they will heavily cancel them, even if they’ve never heard of this, like, obscure, you know, New Zealand knitting shop, you know, somewhere in, like, the boonies of Auckland. So they’re, they’re extremely crazy about it, and I’m su- we’re, we’re gonna see more of that. And I think as we’re also gonna see a lot of performative ugliness.

[00:49:15] Malcolm, I was talking with you this morning about how I, I keep noticing romance novel titles that are horrendous. Let me show you this, this one. ‘Cause I just scrolled on Amazon to try to find, like, bestselling books. This is called Burning Daylight by Emily McInt- McIntyre. It’s a number one New York Times bestselling author.

[00:49:40] She clearly could afford really good art, okay? You’re not gonna be a New York Times bestseller and have a real publisher-

[00:49:47] Malcolm Collins: Oh, my God. Intentional ugliness. It’s the left again. Intentional

[00:49:50] Simone Collins: ugliness. Reflecting ugliness, yeah, just like with the communism and just like with... Yeah, but, like, what we’re looking at, for those of you who are listening I, I think sometimes y- you would see in, like, ‘90s America, street artists who would do, like, airbrushed street art and makes, like, ugly caricatures of people who are dumb enough to sit down for them and pay, like, 30 bucks for a caricature.

[00:50:14] Malcolm Collins: Yes, that’s exactly what it looks like.

[00:50:15] Simone Collins: It looks like that, but unironic. Like, that someone-

[00:50:19] Malcolm Collins: And you see these at, like, Walmart and Target. We were doing our strategy walk this morning- Uh-huh ... and I was, like, just amazed at this- What is this? ... ugly Tumbl- like, early Tumblr art

[00:50:28] Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s yeah, so again, performed

[00:50:30] Malcolm Collins: vaginas Yeah, she’s watching her review her favorite romance books of the year.

[00:50:33] Like, she’s like, “Oh, this one has really good sex scenes.” And it was all art like this.

[00:50:37] Simone Collins: Oh, really? Hmm. But then again, keep in mind, I think the women most likely to be consuming these romance novels are uncoupled women with, you know, like, no romantic or sexual ac- access in their real lives, s- so probably more likely to lean left and not follow a traditional lifestyle.

[00:50:56] Who then being in the left are probably going to be by default coerced into joining the permanent underclass in this new culture war. So they as a rule cannot consume any media that is, like Uh, is seen as, as possibly being AI generated. Like the, the YouTuber I was walking this morning is what I would call an AI racist.

[00:51:21] He, he was saying that if he learned that a supposedly great video essay used AI for parts of its script, his interest would vanish and he would feel like he was consuming productivity software rather than a person’s genuine thoughts. Like they just... W- racism I don’t even think is a good enough word for it because it, it is kind of- Well, I,

[00:51:42] Malcolm Collins: I, I call them the jihadists because they are.

[00:51:43] They want to Butlerian Jihad. Butlerian Jihad.

[00:51:45] Simone Collins: Yeah

[00:51:47] Malcolm Collins: Right?

[00:51:47] Simone Collins: Like- Except they don’t have the- ... Austin AI or anything, but- They don’t have the capability. I mean, I guess arguably you could say they have the capability to wage this war because they’re really stifling data center development. Like the, the, [00:52:00] the rate at which that has risen has been insane.

[00:52:03] But as we discussed in our episode on AI data center hate, it appears that most of that is laundered. Like it’s, it’s based on sort of laundered support through environmental and justice, racial justice organizations from what I think is mostly CCP affiliated bodies that are trying to- Hmm ... stifle AI development in the United States.

[00:52:26] That is my conspiracy theory that I can’t quite thread, but I think that there is, there is evidence, and I, I presented it in that episode. People can just go back to that. But I think the most important thing about this movement that makes it super different, like I was saying, from woke 1.0 and woke 2.0, which were all about like feminism and race and oppression Olympics, and well, then anti-capitalism, is that this really does create a permanent underclass.

[00:52:53] And it reminds me of, you never read Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World, but in this sci-fi dystopian book where there’s this like... I think it was very utopian. I love their futuristic society. There’s this futuristic society where everyone flies around in like helicopter style things, and they have scented showers, and they go to like really cool movie theaters and stuff, and whatever.

[00:53:15] It’s like, it’s a very fun life. You work hard, you play hard, and like everyone’s poly and high off their minds all the time.

[00:53:22] Malcolm Collins: And it’s- Does not sound fun to me. You’re, you... M- alternately you have the techno Puritan future that’s like-

[00:53:28] Simone Collins: I know. That like just works hard and is very stern about the whole thing.

[00:53:30] Or

[00:53:31] Malcolm Collins: armies of, of super soldier you know Space Puritans.

[00:53:36] Simone Collins: I know, I know. But anyway, like, in this, in this world there is still something called reservations for people who didn’t want to opt into this society, this pneumatic society. Pneumatic was their word for cool, which I find delightful.

[00:53:49] Pneumatic.

[00:53:50] Malcolm Collins: Pneumatic.

[00:53:51] Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s great. I wish, I wish pneumatic tubes never went out of style because they’re so freaking nifty.

[00:53:57] Malcolm Collins: They’re so pneumatic.

[00:53:58] Simone Collins: I know. It’s so pneumatic. It was, it was used really well in the book. It’s, it, it’s up there with tharn in terms of book-based slang. But it, these reservations were w- like, the not, not controlled by the world state.

[00:54:13] People there were born naturally, they aged normally, they practiced religion, they lived with pain and disease, and they had family life and social conflict. And the people of the, the world state called it savage re- reservation. And it was kind of horrific for everyone who would visit them. In this, one of the, the- character, like the main character takes essentially his girlfriend to one of these reservations, and she sees an old woman and, like, almost has a stroke because she’s, like, so horrified by what she sees.

[00:54:46] Because, like, in, in, in their dystopia you, like, die at like age 30. Y- you never age after you become an adult, and then you, like, get euthanized, and then your body, like, fuels the power centers of the city or something like that. So no one experiences old age. Then they see it-

[00:55:01] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ... and they’re like- And which is f- th- we’re very, i’d, I’d have it longer. I’d have, you know, stay young until you’re, like, 80 than, than euthanize me.

[00:55:07] Simone Collins: Yeah, I think people have longer productive life, lifespans, but I think Huxley wrote this in like the ‘20s or ‘30s or something, so, you know, he-

[00:55:13] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, I, I’m always really annoyed when people on the right are like, “I’m against ever euthanasia.”

[00:55:19] And I’m like, “Bro, y- are y- are, you are aware that eventually we’re gonna have the tech to live forever, right?” Like, you are ag- you, you basically are against being allowed to die at that point.

[00:55:30] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:55:30] Malcolm Collins: Like, it’s insane.

[00:55:32] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I am... It’s, it’s gonna get complicated. But yeah, it was this, like, harsh kind of scary life, and I kind of wonder if that’s what kind of, th- what they’re headed to.

[00:55:44] Now, we’re gonna see a fracturing of media for sure, right? Because if they’re not able to consume anything with AI in it, they’re basically watching, like, pre-2020 movies and TV shows only, and, and those, all those books, [00:56:00] and then their own little tiny community worth of media. But as we’ve seen with, like, woke video games and stuff, they don’t really consume their own stuff.

[00:56:06] They just consume old stuff.

[00:56:08] Octavian Collins: Mm.

[00:56:09] Simone Collins: So they’re gonna have this totally different media environment that’s, that’s sectioned off with only a little bit of overlap with the rest of us and like almost no contemporary overlap. And then they’re gonna live increasingly, compared to the pro-AI faction, low-tech lives.

[00:56:26] Malcolm Collins: And by the way, I also wanna point out for the people who are, like, against killing yourself, like in in, in any circumstance, it’s a very anti-biblical perspective. The Bi- They, they’re like, “Oh, but the Bible says you shouldn’t kill,” says, “No, you shouldn’t murder.” The Bible explicitly extols and treats as heroes people like Samson who end up killing themselves in an act to make the world a better place, right?

[00:56:49] Like, there’s obviously a selfish way to do it, but there’s also obviously a selfless way to do it. Yeah,

[00:56:54] Simone Collins: otherwise martyrs wouldn’t become saints.

[00:56:57] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. W- th- th- th-

[00:56:58] Simone Collins: Like, what were they doing if not euthanizing themselves really?

[00:57:02] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[00:57:02] Simone Collins: That’s, you know, they’d go on their little, like, tour, and then they’d encounter a lion in the Colosseum.

[00:57:08] Malcolm Collins: And of the, of, of the people Jesus- He did a series of actions that he knew would end in his death.

[00:57:16] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:57:17] Malcolm Collins: That i- that is, that is un-aliving with extra steps.

[00:57:22] Simone Collins: Well, it’s un-aliving with purpose, but that’s what euthanasia is. Yeah. It’s un-aliving in a way to reduce harm to other people, to make the world a better place.

[00:57:30] And the way that I would argue the majority of people die now is, is actually quite harmful to everyone that, that loves them and everyone they love, which is deeply sad. But you guys all just wanna keep doing it, so just let that be on your conscience. Anyway.

[00:57:47] Octavian Collins: No.

[00:57:48] Simone Collins: Why do we keep talking about death?

[00:57:50] Everything’s death. We’re, we’re in a, it’s a... We’re nervous right now. We’re gonna find out tomorrow if the baby we transferred is alive or dead. If the, if the embryo transfer... Yeah. It’s Schrodinger’s baby right now, and so we’re all in a very dark mood over here.

[00:58:03] It worked and the baby took, by the way, so hopefully there’s still like a 25% chance that you lose it at this early stage. But right now we have a baby, uh, is it baby number six on the way

[00:58:16]

[00:58:16] Malcolm Collins: No, you gotta stay happy or it’s dangerous for the baby.

[00:58:19] Simone Collins: We’re so happy here, and-

[00:58:22] Malcolm Collins: With all the hornets.

[00:58:23] Simone Collins: All, with the... It’s just me and the hornets and Schrodinger’s baby over here.

[00:58:28] Malcolm Collins: I am so sorry for you. We have to do something about this.

[00:58:32] Simone Collins: Honestly, after the hornet stung my toe, like, what, four weeks ago or whatever, I’m like, “

[00:58:39] Malcolm Collins: Well-” Have you, have you seen how diligent I am about shoes now because

[00:58:42] Simone Collins: I don’t want

[00:58:42] Malcolm Collins: to get

[00:58:42] Simone Collins: hornets stung?

[00:58:42] I g- I’m super g- Yeah. Guys, like, if there are hornets around where you live, I learned the hard way you should really be bonking out your shoes before you put them in.

[00:58:51] Malcolm Collins: Oh, I don’t bonk th- I even squeeze them all the way down just to make sure there’s no hornets in them.

[00:58:55] Simone Collins: To, like, kill anything that’s in there?

[00:58:57] Oh, God. ‘

[00:58:59] Malcolm Collins: Cause sometimes hornets, you know, they don’t, you know-

[00:59:01] Simone Collins: They don’t get out when they’re supposed to ... move

[00:59:18] Oh yeah, there’s a type of mor- a hornet called a murder hornet, isn’t there?

[00:59:22] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If, if you do get a chance, one of the things that AI suggested is try watching one once you see it to see where it goes.

[00:59:29] Simone Collins: Oh, whenever I encounter them now, it, they’re just trying to go for whatever the brightest light is.

[00:59:34] ‘Cause when they’re in our house, they’re like, “I shouldn’t be here.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I agree with you.” So yeah. Anyway, I think this is gonna be really interesting. I’m, I’m keen to see what people are, are thinking about this in the comments because people in the Base Camp community are a variety of different forms of like online and offline, though I...

[00:59:57] What I find to be interesting is some of the most like homestead-y [01:00:00] type people who are out growing vegetables and harvesting them and living sometimes partially or even completely off the grid still use AI. Which is so funny. Oh, of course,

[01:00:09] Malcolm Collins: because they’re not stupid,

[01:00:10] Simone Collins: right? Well, and that’s the thing is solar punk, which was this whole genre, this whole aesthetic and lifestyle that I feel like was pioneered on the left, the only place where I’m really seeing it practiced outside of cults which are, I guess, left-leaning maybe is among like super pro-AI center right or libertarian people, which is interesting.

[01:00:31] So go figure. Yeah. But yeah.

[01:00:33] Malcolm Collins: Very cool. Very cool. Very cool. Guys, keep, keep it up. And make sure that the, the, the Luddites on the right, we don’t need them. That’s a faction we just don’t need. They’re too dangerous, and they’re not part of the future of humanity.

[01:00:46] Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, and they’re welcome to join whenever they want to, to come, come to the fun side of the island ‘cause

[01:00:52] Malcolm Collins: it’s actually fun.

[01:00:52] Again, we don’t need to force people to use tech. What makes somebody a Luddite is not not using tech. It’s trying to ban other people from using tech- Yeah ... or pressure other people into not using tech. I, I need to make this distinction very clear. That’s what the

[01:01:03] Simone Collins: covenant of sons of man always comes down to, is like are you going to pose yourself as an existential threat to other people and their, their sovereignty?

[01:01:11] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like, we’re totally okay if you’re just like, “I don’t like using AI.” Mm-hmm. Fine, right? Mm-hmm. But that’s very different than like, “I wanna shut down data centers.”

[01:01:18] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:01:21] Malcolm Collins: Hmm. Anyway, love you, sweetheart.

[01:01:23] Simone Collins: Love you.

[01:01:25] Malcolm Collins: What are we doing for dinner tonight? I guess like a burger? It’s very important that you be beautiful the entire stream this stream, okay Simone? Well,

[01:01:31] Simone Collins: can’t, shan’t.

[01:01:32] Malcolm Collins: That’s the only reason people watch. Only reason. All right.

[01:01:37] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[01:01:39] Speaker 4: Which, and they, and they knowed it, it was actually a water snake. So you think- But a grown up, so I think that home is a baby water snake nursery. And what do you think is inside the nursery?

[01:02:00] Speaker 5: Yeah

In this episode of Based Camp, Simone and Malcolm Collins unpack the Democratic Party’s multi-layered civil war and institutional mess. The DNC just fought an open racial and ideological battle over which state goes first in the 2028 presidential primary—South Carolina (Black voters) vs. Nevada (Latino voters)—while the party sits millions in debt, faces donor flight, phone-throwing drama from Chair Ken Martin, and a delayed, incomplete 2024 election autopsy that buried a chapter blaming Biden’s refusal to step aside.

They cover:

* Why the first primary state matters so much (and how it historically blocked Bernie and could block AOC-style candidates)

* Open racial primacy sniping between Black and Latino Democratic factions

* Establishment/moderate Black voters as a firewall against the DSA/progressive left

* DNC financial collapse versus the RNC’s cash pile

* Gen Z’s extreme salary expectations and accelerating demand for socialism

* Younger Democrats’ sharp leftward shift on capitalism, policing, and institutions

* Whether the party can hold or is heading toward collapse/replacement by something more radical

* Speculations on 2028 candidates (including the Hunter Biden “banished prince” theory)

Plus the usual Based Camp mix of data, personal political experience, and unfiltered analysis of identity politics, donor incentives, and what comes next.

Show Notes

Intra-Democratic Fight

* The conflict was triggered by DNC’s choice of which state goes first in the 2028 presidential primary

The Dispute

* Black voters make up a large share of South Carolina’s Democrats and have long been the party’s most loyal national base

* Nevada is a diverse battleground with a substantial Latino population.

* Black leaders treated keeping South Carolina first as a non-negotiable recognition of Black voters’ centrality—especially after recent Supreme Court rulings that weakened Voting Rights Act protections and triggered redistricting fights that reduced Black representation in the South.

* South Carolina Democratic Party Chair Christale Spain put it bluntly in comments that went viral, elevating Nevada over South Carolina “would be because of their Latino vote. So you would then be telling Black voters that you matter less than brown voters.”

* Al Sharpton and others echoed the “slap in the face” framing.

* Some countered, saying things like: “The earliest primaries should be in competitive swing states. Not South Carolina. Honoring the importance of black voters to the Democratic base is also valid, but that still shouldn’t be South Carolina, it should be Georgia and Michigan” … “The purpose of a primary is to choose the strongest nominee to win the general election. It does us no good to show us a candidate is popular in a state that will be irrelevant when it really matters”

* Latino advocacy groups (Voto Latino, Latino Victory Project, etc.) and Nevada Democrats pushed hard the other way, arguing Nevada better reflects the modern coalition Democrats need and that Latinos deserved the symbolic first slot after their 2024 shifts.

* This produced open, racially charged sniping between Black and Latino Democratic factions right before the committee vote—exactly the “giant fight between blacks [and] Hispanics” described.

* The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee ultimately recommended South Carolina first (on or around Jan. 22, 2028), followed by Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Michigan, and Virginia. The full DNC still needs to ratify it.

The Broader DSA/Progressive Struggle

* Progressives and DSA-aligned voices viewed the South Carolina-first outcome as an establishment move to disadvantage left-wing or socialist candidates.

* Here’s how one person in that camp, Christo Aivalis, put it: “South Carolina is an early state for 1 reason only: to block any challenge to right-wing Democrats. It’s got nothing to do with the Black vote. Georgia has a higher proportion of its population that is Black, it’s a swing state, and its Black population is more representative of the national Black population”

* South Carolina’s Black primary voters have repeatedly rejected far-left figures (Bernie Sanders lost the state badly in both 2016 and 2020).

* Many on the left saw SC as a filter that favors more moderate/Black-establishment-aligned candidates and makes it harder for an AOC-style or DSA-backed contender to survive the opening round.

* Nevada was seen as more favorable terrain for progressives (stronger unions, different demographic mix).

* Axios reported progressive anger after the vote: some explicitly framed putting South Carolina first as the establishment trying to “shut down” a progressive presidential candidate and fight the party’s leftward shift. Online, DSA/progressive accounts went after the decision as protecting the “Black, Jewish, and Moderate alliance” (a common left shorthand for traditional Democratic power centers that progressives often criticize as insufficiently radical or too tied to certain institutional interests). This is the “DSA and progressive types go at the Black, Jewish, and Moderate alliance” part and the “left is eating itself” dynamic.

DNC Money Troubles

I did not know the democratic party was having troubles:

NY Times: Inside the Phone-Throwing Drama at the Troubled, Broke Democratic Party

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/26/us/politics/ken-martin-dnc-democrats.html?unlocked_article_code=1.0lA.7wDs.OpuSYQKTgP8r&smid=url-share

* “So much is going politically right for Democrats these days. President Trump’s approval is down, gas prices are up and an unpopular war with Iran drags on. But dysfunction and debt inside one of the party’s key institutions — which is getting crushed in fund-raising by its Republican counterpart — are creating rising anxiety for top Democrats.”

* “Mr. Trump controls a $400 million super PAC, and the Republican National Committee is sitting on nearly $130 million. Mr. Martin’s D.N.C. is $2 million in debt.”

* “For more than a decade, the D.N.C. has transferred millions of dollars every election to sister committees responsible for winning the House and Senate. But the national party is now so short on cash — even after taking out a $15 million loan last year — that officials have privately conveyed to congressional leadership that there will be no such transfers in 2026.”

* “Some of the problems are a hangover from 2024. While Vice President Kamala Harris raised record sums that year, her loss left many big Democratic donors disillusioned with the party. Her campaign also had millions in debt that the D.N.C. spent much of last year paying off, with Ms. Harris’s help.”

* Part of me wonders if the strategy is good, though? They’re giving all the money to state/local committees to WIN ELECTIONS. They shouldn’t be sitting on cash, they’re spending it, and they are… so maybe I think they’re doing the right thing.

* “Mr. Martin’s pledge to increase monthly handouts to state parties has been the centerpiece of his spending agenda. But his inclusion of the territories has caused consternation.”

What Can We Expect from the Future of the DNC?

Some donation troubles: There was a sharp post-2024 pullback by DNC megadonors frustrated with party direction.

Overall Democratic funding has faced real headwinds in 2025–2026 relative to Republicans, especially at the party-committee level, but it is not a simple “drying up.”

Turnout is good: Democratic primary turnout has generally outpaced Republican turnout in 2026 so far, reversing or narrowing patterns from recent midterm cycles (especially 2022). This is based on state-level results, multi-state analyses, and reporting through mid-to-late July 2026. Primary turnout is an imperfect enthusiasm signal and does not automatically predict general-election results, but multiple independent reviews describe a clear Democratic edge.

Broad Gen Z sentiment is… worrying?

A 2024 Empower survey of 2,203 U.S. adults found an overall average salary of about $270,000 to feel financially successful, with generation-specific figures of:

* $99,874 for Baby Boomers

* $212,321 for Gen X

* $180,165 for Millennials,

* $587,797 for Gen Z.

Younger Democrats (Gen Z and Millennials) tend to be more progressive, more critical of institutions and capitalism, more skeptical of the Democratic establishment, and more left-leaning on foreign policy (especially Israel/Palestine) and criminal justice than older Democrats (Gen X and Boomers).

* In Pew’s 2026 political typology, adults under 30 (and Democrats under 30 specifically) are far more likely to fall into groups like “Leftward Progressives” (very progressive across the board, skeptical of the party) and “Left-Out Left” (Democratic-leaning but disillusioned). Older Democrats are more concentrated among “Loyal Liberals,” who feel better represented by the party and its leadership.

* Gallup data show Democrats under 50 have become notably less positive about capitalism over the past 15 years, while older Democrats’ views shifted less. Positive views of socialism have risen among Democrats overall, with younger cohorts often more supportive. Younger Democrats prioritize issues like housing costs, student debt relief, and broader economic precarity more intensely.

* Younger Democrats are more skeptical of police and the criminal justice system. They are less likely to view police as essential and more supportive of major reforms or rebuilding systems for racial equity. Older Democrats tend to hold more conventional “law and order” or institutional-support views while still favoring reforms.

* Younger Democrats often prioritize climate change more strongly and support more aggressive policies (e.g., faster phase-outs of fossil fuels or gasoline vehicles), though Democratic support for climate action is high across ages. On race, younger cohorts (especially White Democrats) score as more progressive on many measures of racial attitudes. Abortion rights and LGBTQ+ issues show broad Democratic support, with younger voters (particularly young women) often at the progressive end.

Media figures are pointing to dissatisfaction

In a recent podcast, Ezra Klein and his guest Ben Wikler argue that Democrats are losing trust not just because of Trump’s appeal but because many voters see neither party delivering materially better lives, and that the party’s path forward involves a focus on affordability and democratic legitimacy.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I am very excited to be speaking with you, because I need to process something, and I think I need you to help me figure this out and hopefully our listeners in the comments too. W- the DNC basically just went through a multi-layered, messy civil war, and I had no idea. It involved Black and Latino constituencies fighting for symbolic primacy amid this larger ideological fight between the moderate establishment Democrats, which lean heavily on Southern Black voters, and the progressive DSA wing.

[00:00:34] And then even while this political environment is heavily in the Democratic Party’s favor, and I can tell you about primary turnout levels and everything else th- this is their game to lose. The national committee is struggling. The New York Times describes the DNC as troubled and broke with money problems and organizational- I...

[00:00:53] They’re

[00:00:53] Malcolm Collins: completely broke. They’re not giving money to any of their candidates. It’s

[00:00:55] Simone Collins: Which is like- Yeah, pe- people are throwing cell phones. And then of course, in line with typical DNC culture, filing complaints a- about it. Come on, God. I’m sure that s- various objects are thrown among Republican operatives, but I w- doubt that they’re filing formal

[00:01:12] Malcolm Collins: reports about it.

[00:01:12] No, there was a great tell-all book that came out recently, I don’t know if you’re gonna review this, from a DNC insider about how bad it is to work in the DNC. No. And she was like- That’s not at all nice ... talking about how she had a, when she produced good work, whenever she would do an astounding job and really impress everyone-

[00:01:31] Simone Collins: Yeah

[00:01:31] Malcolm Collins: One of her Black coworkers would start to give reports about how because, she’d always try to put it down or something, how she wasn’t giving primacy to Black voices or something. Oh, my God. Basically as a technique to consolidate power around herself. To suppress. It...

[00:01:45] yeah.

[00:01:45] Simone Collins: Yeah. Wow.

[00:01:46] Malcolm Collins: And this was just apparently a constant thing that you have to deal with when you’re in one

[00:01:49] Simone Collins: of those positions. If it gets rewarded, you’re gonna do it.

[00:01:52] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[00:01:52] Simone Collins: So she wasn’t being, like, wrong, she was doing the right thing. Just sucks. Anyway multiple outlets were reporting that the chair of the DNC, Ken Martin, has faced criticism over his leadership, not just for throwing a cell phone at someone else’s desk but specifically for the handling of the party’s 2024 election autopsy, and a loss of confidence among donors and insiders.

[00:02:17] If you’re unaware of this particular fiasco, it is quite interesting. , So they did the election autopsy. The guy didn’t want to release it because he thought it was a low quality or it didn’t reflect what Democrats wanted to hear about why they lost the re-election. And then people, , began to make conspiracy theories.

[00:02:39] So this is given to him in twenty twenty-four. He was eventually forced to release it in twenty twenty-six. , And it basically didn’t call out anything. That’s what everyone was so surprised about. It didn’t mention Gaza. It didn’t mention Biden not stepping down. It didn’t mention any of that. And then as of August twenty twenty-six, there has been a new revelation, which is that he hid one of the chapters in it, , that was handed to him in a binder saying that Biden himself and not stepping down or passing on the church when he should have, was the single point of failure, and also talking more about the Hispanic, Black, Asian American, and Native American, , turn on the Democratic Party and why that happened.

[00:03:23] Simone Collins: So- Let’s start with the Civil War ‘cause it’s weird. It w- this was triggered by the DNC’s choice of which state goes first in the 2028 presidential primary, which to me seems, and I’m I know it’s a big deal, but it feels to me a lot like who gets to enter first at the prom or something.

[00:03:44] Malcolm Collins: But it’s not.

[00:03:44] It really sets the tone for who wins. It

[00:03:47] Simone Collins: does. It does. And I learned that from this. I was like, “I don’t get it. You’re- ... but it really matters.”

[00:03:52] Malcolm Collins: I’d say it probably matters as much as 30 to 40%. It’s-

[00:03:55] Simone Collins: Yes, in fact, it is this very reason why, for example, Bernie [00:04:00] Sanders had no shot at running for president when I think he probably could have won, honestly-

[00:04:05] In the primaries. So here’s the thing, okay? Black voters make up a large share of Southern Carolina’s Democrats, and they’ve long been the party’s most loyal national base. Nevada is this diverse battleground with a substantial Latino population. Black leaders treated keeping South Carolina as the first state to do primaries for the presidential election as a non-negotiable recognition of Black voter centrality, especially after the recent Supreme Court rulings that weakened voting, the Voting Rights Act protections and triggered redistricting fights that reduced Black representation in the South allegedly.

[00:04:46] Again, that seems so incredibly stupid that, like- It almost seems racist Everything

[00:04:51] Malcolm Collins: is this victimhood fight. Everything

[00:04:53] Simone Collins: But also wait, are you saying Black people are incompetent and they can’t even get their acts together to get an ID? This is... It just seems really screwed up to imply that hurts-

[00:05:02] Malcolm Collins: Black voters disproportionately, but yeah,

[00:05:04] Simone Collins: like- Or get it wrong?

[00:05:05] I just I don’t even wanna s- first-

[00:05:06] Malcolm Collins: No it’s obviously racist. Okay And it shows that the Democrats are just super f*****g racist. They think Black people are, like, idiots that can’t get IDs, that can’t get jobs, that can’t get-

[00:05:16] Simone Collins: Yeah ... you

[00:05:16] Malcolm Collins: know. This is like Biden when he was like, you know- Oh, yeah

[00:05:18] we wanna do this both for rich people and Black people.

[00:05:21] Simone Collins: That’s what they- Oh, I thought you were gonna say if you don’t vote Democrat, then you ain’t Black. That, that

[00:05:25] Malcolm Collins: was your- Oh there’s that, too, right? Yeah. Trying to police their identity. It’s disgu- I could not imagine the, how much I would have to hate my own people to be a Black person who voted Democrat.

[00:05:34] It just, the level of disgust they treat you with. It’s good for us if for America if the, the Black Democrats do vote first because they’re less crazy than the white Democrats. It’s not good for us because they’ll elect a more electable candidate, but,

[00:05:47] Simone Collins: No, that, that is that, that’s kind of the crux of it, though, is that in the end I think anyone who wants a fairly rational future for the Democratic Party wants the primary to be in South Carolina and to be controlled by Black voters because they will wipe out any off-the-charts insane outlier.

[00:06:07] Malcolm Collins: And-

[00:06:07] Simone Collins: Bernie Sanders

[00:06:08] Malcolm Collins: and stuff like that.

[00:06:09] Simone Collins: Except this time it’s more like AOC. That’s what kinda people are saying. They’re like if South Carolina’s where it starts, then AOC’s off of this.” But anyway, so to recap the, i- normally it’s been South Carolina, but now people are like no, it should be Nevada.”

[00:06:22] And then when ev- the, people are like no, obviously it should be Black,” or Black people in South Carolina who should have the voice. Then the Latina people are like, “Wait what am I? Do I mean nothing? Are we not a large part of the-” You do mean nothing,

[00:06:33] Malcolm Collins: by the

[00:06:34] Simone Collins: way.

[00:06:34] Malcolm Collins: You-

[00:06:35] Simone Collins: To the Democratic Party, apparently.

[00:06:37] But anyway, South Carolina Democratic Party ch- chair Chris Dale Spain put it super bluntly in her comments, which went viral, and are kinda the most salient ones that are showing up on X, for example. She claimed that elevating Nevada over South Carolina, quote, “Would be because of their Latino vote.

[00:06:55] So you would then be telling Black voters that you matter less than Brown voters.” End quote. Which is also putting- Wait, but- ... all these artificial divides in here By

[00:07:03] Malcolm Collins: that, by that logic you’re telling Brown voters that they matter less than Black voters.

[00:07:08] Simone Collins: Yes. No, but like very explicitly. And she’s

[00:07:09] Malcolm Collins: “And of course they do.”

[00:07:10] Yeah. That’s taken as the obvious, DNC- Yeah ... position. Yes. Of course Brown people matter less than Black people. Yes. We live in a strict racial hierarchy within our organization.

[00:07:20] Simone Collins: Yes.

[00:07:20] Malcolm Collins: These people are so f*****g evil.

[00:07:22] Simone Collins: It’s trying. Anyway, Al Sharpton and others also echoed this slap in the face framing, and then some countered saying things like, “The earliest primaries should be in competitive swing states, not South Carolina.

[00:07:35] Honoring the importance of Black voters and the Democratic base is also valid, but that still shouldn’t be the South Carolina, it should be Georgia and Michigan...” Dot. “The purpose,” I’m reading a quote, “of a primary is to choose the strongest nominee to win the general election. It does not... It does us no good to show us a candidate that is popular in a state that will be irrelevant when it [00:08:00] really matters.”

[00:08:00] Which is a very valid point. Anyway, Latino advocacy groups like Voto Latino Victory Project, et cetera, and Nevada Democrats pushed hard the other way, arguing Nevada better reflects some modern coalition Democrats and their needs and that Latinos deserve symbolic first slots after the 2024 shifts.

[00:08:17] And this produced open, racially charged sniping between Black and Latino Democratic factions right before the committee vote, exactly the, quote, “Giant fight between Blacks and Hispanics” described. The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee did ultimately keep South Carolina as being first. And Nevada’s right after that, and then New Hampshire, New Mexico, Michigan, and Virginia.

[00:08:41] It’s not ratified yet. But this takes place within, again, that cloud of a larger struggle basically between this like, “Hey, let’s just be the traditional old-fashioned Democratic Party,” and the very progressive, more socialist fragment of it that I think is going to represent the future of the Democratic Party, and we can talk about that.

[00:09:04] Progressives and DSA-aligned voices viewed the South Carolina first outcome as an establishment move to disadvantage left-wing or socialist candidates. One person in that camp named Christo Ivalis put it this way, quote, “South Carolina is an early state for one reason only: to block any challenges to right-wing Democrats.

[00:09:25] It’s got nothing to do with the Black vote. Georgia has a higher proportion of its population that is Black. It’s a swing state, and its Black population is more representative of the national Black population.” South Carolina’s Black primary voters have repeatedly rejected far left figures. Bernie Sanders lost the state badly in both the 2016 and 2020 elections.

[00:09:46] It’s where he- Yeah ... started eight years here that we’ve been- No,

[00:09:50] Malcolm Collins: no the, the funny thing is that the Bla- a lot of Black Democrats, and a, a lot of people complain about this on the right. They’re like, “Oh, you’ve got all these Black Democrats when the party doesn’t really care about them. And on top of that, they treat them as like a locked voter base.

[00:10:02] And on top of that, they don’t share Democratic values.” The, the reality is that a lot of Black Democrats are essentially Republicans. And this is stupid that they vote for Democrats for the mainstream elections, right? But it’s also, in terms of keeping the Democrats from going crazy, a very important counterweight.

[00:10:24] They are just racially supremacist Republicans. That’s ... That is essentially what we’re seeing here. And you go in there with, ARCs or Bernie Sanders ideas, and they’re not gonna, to have any of it. They’re like, “No,” I see what you guys are.” They s- we’re not, they’re not about communist BS.

[00:10:40] And th- I mean, they’re the type of people who really supported Biden. That was, a, a big early support base for him

[00:10:46] Simone Collins: Yeah. Part of me just they feel like the Democratic Party is using Black voters as a cudgel to maintain their own power hierarchies while also just ignoring their actual needs, which is, seems just pretty damn evil.

[00:11:01] But anyway the basic gist of it is that people see South Carolina, on the left especially, see South Carolina as a filter that favors moderate Black establishment-aligned candidates, and makes it super harder for an AOC-style or DSA-backed contender to survive the opening round. And that’s what a lot of Democrats really want.

[00:11:21] They want... look at the Mamdani wave that has really swept a lot of at least terminally online leftist communities. Nevada was seen as the way to make that feasible for a presidential election. Yeah. So that’s why this had become a bit of a civil war. People were like, “No, this is the future of the Democratic Party.

[00:11:42] Don’t stop us. We want stronger unions. We want different demographic mixes.” And no, it, they just-

[00:11:48] Malcolm Collins: I actually agree with the decision they made here. I think if you care about Democrats winning it’s better to do this. Yeah. Not winning, but winning with a sane candidate. I guess they could get some sort of crazy populist [00:12:00] which would be- Oh

[00:12:00] very dangerous for the future of America.

[00:12:02] Simone Collins: I feel like AOC would easily win a presidential election if she could make it through the primaries. Because in the end, she’s young, and attractive, and articulate, and People don’t really think the way that they used to I think she’d be competitive.

[00:12:18] Malcolm Collins: I agree with that.

[00:12:18] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:12:19] Malcolm Collins: but I don’t think she’s a safe person to allow to be president,

[00:12:22] Simone Collins: no, but I’m just talking about who would likely win. So look, if it were AOC versus Vance, I don’t know, man. There’s a lot of women who are just like, “Oh, girl power.” Not to go back to the ‘90s, but they’d be real excited about a young, pretty woman, people like young, p- pretty women. It’s a thing.

[00:12:41] Malcolm Collins: I think the people who are like that are, would vote Democrat regardless.

[00:12:45] Simone Collins: Yeah. But yeah. And there’s also a lot of swing voters who aren’t gonna do the homework and, look at “Oh, another white man,” and then “Oh, this charismatic-looking young woman.

[00:12:56] She looks like she could...” Yeah, I don’t know. I just feel like she’d be a genuine threat. And the pr- a lot of progressive Democrats were super, super angry after the decision was made. Some explicitly framed putting South Carolina first as the establishment trying to shut down a progressive presidential candidate and their attempt to make the party shift leftward.

[00:13:17] Online and DSA progressive accounts... Sorry, online DSA and progressive accounts basically called the decision one that protected Black, Jewish, and moderate allies within the DNC which is common left shorthand for traditional Democratic power centers that progressives often criticize as insufficiently radical or too tied to their institutional interests, which is not wrong.

[00:13:43] I have the same impression. I don’t, I really think they have a fairly level-headed understanding of what happened here. And I don’t... Yeah, I-

[00:13:49] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, I think they’re right, and I think it is... it’s corrupt. The process is corrupt. The DNC is corrupt. You, did you guys not know that? That’s your own team corruption.

[00:13:57] That’s your- Yeah ... your guys’ whole thing is corruption. Like- Yeah ... you’re like I voted for the party,” and they’re like, “No, communism.” Communism has always been about corruption, right? That’s why we don’t like it, right?

[00:14:10] Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely. So all of this is happening while the DNC has some pretty serious money troubles.

[00:14:19] The New York Times, I referenced them at the top they published this article called- It’s not

[00:14:24] Malcolm Collins: money troubles, they’re completely broke from my understanding.

[00:14:26] Simone Collins: No, they’re not just broke they’re in debt. So the, the New York Times article is titled Inside the Phone-Throwing Drama at the Troubled, Broke Democratic Party, and some, some choice quotes from it.

[00:14:36] “So much is going politically right for Democrats these days. President Trump’s approval is down, gas prices are up, and an unpopular war with Iran drags on. But dysfunction and debt inside one of the party’s key institutions, which is getting crushed in fundraising by its Republican counterpart, are creating rising anxiety for top Democrats.

[00:14:53] Mr. Trump controls a 400 million super PAC and a Republican National Committee is sitting on nearly 130 million. Mr. Martin’s DNC is two million in debt.” That is such a contrast. Two

[00:15:08] Malcolm Collins: million in debt,

[00:15:09] Simone Collins: gee. Yeah, versus Trump’s 400 million super PAC and the na- the, the RNC sitting on 130. Yowza. That is so wild.

[00:15:18] Malcolm Collins: It’s about irresponsibility versus responsibility. They’ve b- they were broke after the Kamala campaign as well. They just wasted money

[00:15:25] Simone Collins: on the stupid things. Maybe there seems to be a genuinely different strategy. So they write in the article, “For more than a decade, the DNC has transferred millions of dollars every election to sister committees responsible for winning the House and Senate, but the National Party is now so short on cash, even after taking out a 15 million loan last year, that officials have privately conveyed to congressional leadership that there will be no such transfers in 2026.”

[00:15:49] What the Democratic Party has essentially been doing is taking all of its money, even going into debt, although the debt had to do, I think, more with Kamala’s election. But what I... And this is what I saw on the [00:16:00] ground when I ran for office. They’re taking all their money and they’re giving it to candidates.

[00:16:05] So the, the opponent against whom I ran was extremely well-funded. He had a team. Like, when I turned in personally- The Republican Party

[00:16:13] Malcolm Collins: does not do this, by the way.

[00:16:14] Simone Collins: No. I received... so I received help from people in the community who were nice and bros. I did not receive anything more than an endorsement from the committee in our county, and thank you guys for that, of course, but I was also the only person running.

[00:16:31] Their choice was to

[00:16:34] Malcolm Collins: We also spoke at their big events and stuff like that. We’ve been at something of a hit at Republican

[00:16:39] Simone Collins: Events A lot of people in the county don’t like me ‘cause I’m too weird. Anyway but like- ... in general, it wasn’t just me. Also, super normies who were running did not get any help or support from the party.

[00:16:51] So it was mostly the people that I met who were running, considering runs, et cetera, were semi-retired local entrepreneurs who wanted to give back to their communities, and were just literally just self-funding everything and begging friends and family for money. Meanwhile, like, when I went to turn in my petitions, after I collected the lion’s share of my signatures, I can’t remember how many it was, but I spent weeks in the in, in sub-freezing temperatures, pregnant, waddling around with a diaper on, so I couldn’t, I wouldn’t take breaks.

[00:17:25] This is the humiliation I went through to collect these votes. And then I go to turn them in person in Harrisburg, which is the capital of of Pennsylvania. And I’m there, I’m turning in my votes on, on the day where you turn in your votes. And then my, my Democratic opponent, he has, I think, three people were present on his team turning in his petition votes.

[00:17:47] And not a single one of the, the signatures was collected by him personally.

[00:17:53] Malcolm Collins: Jesus.

[00:17:54] Simone Collins: So you have to keep in mind the profound level of financial and logistical support that Democratic candidates have- What’s

[00:18:02] Malcolm Collins: funny here is that the Republican Party has all this money in part because they’re not spending it on winning.

[00:18:07] They’re spending it on being a Republican party.

[00:18:09] Simone Collins: Yeah. No, when, so I wanna criticize the Republican Party too here. I don’t know if it’s such a win that they’re sitting on all this money, because they are not helping candidates, at least on a local level, get elected.

[00:18:22] They’re just sitting on money. I guess they just like to have their Scrooge McDuck vault, because it’s just so fun to breaststroke through the coins. Meanwhile-

[00:18:30] Malcolm Collins: I guess what this says is an individual Republican is do not do- donate to the RNC. Donate to candidates.

[00:18:35] Simone Collins: Yeah, for real, don’t. Yeah, just donate directly to candidates, ‘cause you are wasting your money.

[00:18:41] But I honestly, I came away from that article and I’m like, good for them. They’re actually supporting. ‘Cause, they are explicit in this that they have just given their money to get people elected, and it has been fairly effective. So I kinda don’t wanna as much as this, oh own the libs I f- I kinda feel like they’re owning us.

[00:19:00] They may be stressing out. The, th- they’re not doing so well organizationally. They’re toxic. But they’re- I, I’m not saying the RNC’s perfect either. Anyway, I’m gonna take some more quotes from this. Quote, “Some of the problems are a hangover from 2024. While Vice President Kamala Harris raised record sums that year, her loss left many big Democratic donors disillusioned with her, with the party.

[00:19:26] Her campaign also had millions in debt to the DNC, spent much last year paying off with Ms. Harris’s help.” And so it, it was Kamala Harris’s election plus them just giving away their money that has put them in this position, and they’re very stressed out, and the leader’s losing it, and, it’s kinda toxic.

[00:19:45] But so all of this has me wanting to discuss with you, Malcolm, and then seeing what people are saying in the comments too, what can we expect from the future of the DNC? And what we have here, like a lay of the land, is we have the donation troubles, right? [00:20:00] After 2024, there was this big pull up- pull back by DNC mega-donors who were really frustrated with the direction of the policy.

[00:20:07] So-

[00:20:08] Malcolm Collins: They did a terrible job

[00:20:10] Simone Collins: Yeah, the par- the party did a bad job, and I think it’s good that they’re not getting donations, but look at what the party just did. The party just basically decided- Doubled

[00:20:18] Malcolm Collins: down on the

[00:20:19] Simone Collins: Kamala narrative Yeah, we’re gonna double down, and you’re... No, you’re not allowed to change us.

[00:20:22] You’re not allowed to disrupt us. You’re not allowed to pull us more progressive. We are not gonna listen to the grassroots surge of interest in socialism and in the environment and all these other things. And so I don’t see this donation issue changing with the mega donors because the organization is not changing.

[00:20:39] But in addition to these mega donors, overall Democratic funding has also faced headwinds in 2025 to 2026 relative to Republicans, especially at the party committee level. But it’s not like everything’s drying up. Candidates are still getting donations and stuff. Anyway, Democratic primary turnout is quite good right now.

[00:21:00] Okay, so money troubles, eh, ‘cause they’re refusing to change, but they’re still... People are... Democrats are still way better than Republicans at turning out to primary elections. Yeah.

[00:21:09] If they

[00:21:10] Malcolm Collins: didn’t, the next election’s even harder for us.

[00:21:12] Simone Collins: Yes. So let’s see. Based on multi-state results and multi-state analyses and reporting through mid to late July 2026, the...

[00:21:20] across the board, yeah, it, it outperforms. But also, I wanna argue that broad Gen Z sentiment is worrying. This is a slightly off-topic, but I think it’s important to note this here. Something that’s been trending on X recently, and More Births put this as part of his this is why people don’t have kids.

[00:21:37] They expect... They need to spend so much more money to do anything than for earlier generations did, and this is part of the problem. This 20- And he’s using this survey that’s now trending as part of his argument. It’s this 2024 Empower survey of 2,203 US adults, which found an overall average salary of around $270,000 is what people felt they needed to be financially successful.

[00:22:03] But the generation-specific figures are what really make this survey super notable. So what do you think baby boomers thought they needed per year to be financially successful in this survey?

[00:22:13] Malcolm Collins: I’m gonna guess $150,000 or $125,000.

[00:22:15] Simone Collins: No, $99,874. Okay.

[00:22:19] Malcolm Collins: Okay?

[00:22:19] Simone Collins: Baby boomers. All right. What about Gen X?

[00:22:23] Malcolm Collins: I, the young, I’m gonna guess 200,000, 250,000 212, yeah.

[00:22:26] 212 to

[00:22:28] Simone Collins: 221 for Gen X, so like twice as much as baby boomers. Millennials, what do you think- ... us millennials, us olds, but not that olds,

[00:22:37] Malcolm Collins: Half a million a year.

[00:22:39] Simone Collins: No 180,000. Dude, I’d be happy with 180,000. That’d be good.

[00:22:45] Malcolm Collins: That’d be really- Like- Yeah, that, life would be good ... yeah,

[00:22:47] We would love that,

[00:22:48] Simone Collins: right?

[00:22:48] Malcolm Collins: Guys, donate on the Patreon. I, I- ... mentioned once in a Leaflet stream I did the whole, subscribe, donate, et cetera, and she ... She got very embarrassed and she was like, “My fans donate enough to me. You don’t need to say that,” right? Like-

[00:22:58] Simone Collins: Aw.

[00:22:58] Malcolm Collins: But we don’t say it enough. No. We gotta-

[00:22:59] Simone Collins: You guys should donate to Leaflet.

[00:23:01] Donate to Leaflet.

[00:23:02] Malcolm Collins: No. What? The, g- get our weekend episodes, okay? You donate enough. Hey,

[00:23:06] Simone Collins: actually, yes. Yeah, no, so in case you don’t know, we have a sub second Patreon that gives paid subscribers access to weekend episodes. We do seven episodes a week, and you can get access to these weekend episodes where we say more spicy things and are a little more candid.

[00:23:23] And yeah we post things that we wouldn’t normally- Or

[00:23:24] Malcolm Collins: we say boring things that I care about but the rest of the world won’t care about. No, no one else is gonna care about how annoyed I am at Eliezer Yudkowsky. And-

[00:23:33] Simone Collins: I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t know. I am. So anyway it’s for the, the people in the know, the, the real men of culture and women.

[00:23:40] The real men of

[00:23:40] Malcolm Collins: culture.

[00:23:41] Simone Collins: Women of society, yes. So anyway, you can support us if you want to. We appreciate it. Apparently we don’t receive as much as other people, and $180,000 a year sounds fricking awesome. So do millennials. Yeah, right? But so now guess what Gen Z thinks they need. All right? So- All right,

[00:23:57] Malcolm Collins: what do they think they need?

[00:23:58] Something astronomical. Yeah,

[00:23:58] Simone Collins: so remember, [00:24:00] boomers around $100,000. Gen X around $200,000. Millennials 180. Gen Z what is, what do the children want? What do they think they need?

[00:24:10] Malcolm Collins: They, half a million, I guess

[00:24:13] Simone Collins: 587,797 thousand

[00:24:16] Malcolm Collins: 500, God, my God

[00:24:18] Simone Collins: To, to, yeah. They know and we know that they are never going to get that unless they’re in the 1% that actually gets excited about AI and builds something cool.

[00:24:26] But that is not everyone. Or the, the, the other 1% that marries them and lucks out. Everyone else knows they’re not gonna get that. And you know the one way they think they’re gonna get that is by taxing-

[00:24:40] Malcolm Collins: Stealing it ...

[00:24:41] Simone Collins: by stealing it, by socializing it. Okay? The, the demand for socialism that we are going to see as AI rises, that we already see-

[00:24:52] Malcolm Collins: What’s so funny is-

[00:24:52] Simone Collins: among Gen Z- ... the

[00:24:53] Malcolm Collins: group that wants socialism is fighting against the technology that allows for socialism

[00:24:59] Simone Collins: I know. I know. I know. That’s the funny thing. So Elon Musk recently had this a very contentious interview with, the editor-in-chief of The Economist. It’s so funny to watch the commentary on both sides, ‘cause far left progressives are like, “She owned him.”

[00:25:15] And then the, all the rightists are like, “He owned her.” And they’re like, we’re all watching the same exact interview, and it’s so weird. We all

[00:25:22] Malcolm Collins: believe in different- because leftists don’t care about the logic or the arguments being made. They’re just like, “She said the points.”

[00:25:29] Simone Collins: She said the thing.

[00:25:30] Yeah, I, anyway, so one thing that on, on this whole... Oh, I lost my train of thought. Let’s see. No. You were

[00:25:37] Malcolm Collins: gonna say something that happened in the article about socialism b- being allowed through AI.

[00:25:42] Simone Collins: Oh yes. I’m obsessed with Iain Banks, the sci-fi writer and his Culture series.

[00:25:45] Yes. And so is Elon Musk. And she’s like but did you know that Iain Banks was a socialist?” And Elon Musk tries to explain to her And then she cuts him off. But yeah, the whole point is AI makes capitalism, sorry makes communism possible. Like the whole real communism has not been tried.

[00:26:07] Malcolm Collins: Or it ma- it makes... look it, the, the, the thing about socialism and communism is that you have to steal money from the people who are working, which is presumably humans, but- No, as

[00:26:16] Simone Collins: long as there are people working. Communism was designed for a post-scarcity society. Yeah, but if- The whole

[00:26:20] Malcolm Collins: point ... the people working aren’t human, if it’s AI who’s- making all the money, you can do this stuff.

[00:26:26] Simone Collins: Yes.

[00:26:27] Yes. Yeah. Then you’re not stealing from humans anymore, it’s just AI being like, “Whatever, dudes.” Fine.

[00:26:31] Malcolm Collins: We’re not pro w- whatever that economic system looks like. It’s likely gonna be different than generic capitalism, but we’re already pretty socialistic.

[00:26:38] We don’t let people starve to death like I think we should, right? If-

[00:26:41] Simone Collins: We’re extremely socialistic. Oh, we’ve... Come on, we did a, the United States is a socialist paradise episode. We’ve done- Yeah ... this whole thing. But my, yeah, the, it is ironic, but my point is that what we can expect as AI rises, and as time goes on, and as younger generations gain influence and older generations die, is an extreme.

[00:27:01] Okay, it’s one of those things- ... of while the DNC won this battle, they are going to lose the war. Younger Democrats also they’re just... So they tend to be more progressive, more critical of institutions and capitalism, more skepital. Skepital. I’m really losing it. More skeptical of the Democratic establishment and more left-leaning on foreign policy, especially with regard, of course, to Israel and Palestine, and criminal justice.

[00:27:26] So if you look at Pew’s 2026 political typology, adults under- ... 30, and Democrats under 30 specifically, are far more likely to fall into groups like leftward progressives, that is to say very progressive across the board and skeptical of the party, and left out left, which is Democratic-leaning but disillusioned.

[00:27:43] Whereas older Democrats are more likely to be concentrated among Pew’s profile called loyal liberals, who feel like they’re better represented by the party and its leadership. They’re about to die, so this is a very temporary main- maintenance of stability. Also, Gallup data show Democrats [00:28:00] under 50 have become notably less positive about capitalism over the last 15 years, while older Democrats’ views have shifted a lot less.

[00:28:07] So they’re holding the party to a form of what we would call sanity that’s not gonna last. Yeah ... and younger Democrats prioritize issues like housing costs instead of debt reduction. This

[00:28:17] Malcolm Collins: is why I don’t think that we can continue to really operate like a two-party state going forwards, right?

[00:28:21] Simone Collins: It’s g- yeah, when p- one party believes in overthrowing government, probably. Yeah. And also, younger Democrats are way more skeptical of police and the criminal justice system. They don’t want law and order. They are less likely to view police as essential and more supportive of major reforms and rebuilding systems for racial equity, whatever that means.

[00:28:43] Whereas older Democrats obviously are

[00:28:45] Malcolm Collins: more- You know what it means. It means a racial hierarchy. It means

[00:28:48] Simone Collins: racism. Apparently, ‘cause I thought maybe, like- Racial equity looked if you break the law, you’re in trouble. It doesn’t matter what color you are. But apparently racial equity means if you break the law but you’re this color, then-

[00:29:00] Malcolm Collins: You’re not in trouble.

[00:29:01] Yeah ...

[00:29:01] Simone Collins: you

[00:29:03] Malcolm Collins: know you get a- the people who aren’t aware that this is a mainstream position on the left now, look at the Anthony trial that just happened, right? Look at the just absolute crickets on the left over the woman going to jail for calling a child grapist a grapist. No, sorry, she didn’t call him...

[00:29:17] She called him the N-word. Okay ... the the, the one who called him a grape- Oh, the other one. Sorry ... but the N-word. But the one about the N-word was particularly telling, because at her trial, she, they didn’t need the witness there to convict her. They didn’t have him come to stand once, yet they wouldn’t hold his trial for child grape because the, the witness wasn’t there anymore.

[00:29:38] So the, the standards for trying a Black person immigrant for grape are significantly lower than the standards for trying a white woman for saying the wrong thing. It is astonishing that we’re at that point as a country. But we are, and everybody knows it at this point, right? Everybody can see the severe inequity of how court trials are carried out and the way our justice system works.

[00:30:01] Simone Collins: But the way you hear it from mainstream Democratic influential voices, even voices of people I like, like Ezra Klein it’s gonna sound very different. This revolution isn’t gonna sound like we need to destroy the justice system. We need to enact socialism. Like in a recent podcast that Ezra Klein and his guest, Ben Wilker, did they just argue that Democrats are losing trust, not just because Trump’s appeal, but because many voters see neither party delivering materially better lives, and that parties path forward involves a focus on affordability and Democratic legitimacy, with Democratic legitimacy really meaning our side always wins, and affordability meaning someone else pays for everything I want.

[00:30:46] And I just find this, I don’t know, disturbing. So I... One, the reason why I wanted to do this episode is I think that the fact that there was a civil war is important. The fact that the, we’ll say radical side lost it is Way more trivial than a lot of the people who are having butt hurt about losing right now would let on.

[00:31:10] Okay, this probably means that AOC has absolutely zero shot in 2028, whereas I thought that she did for a while. She’s out now. Functionally, her campaign is over before it began. But that doesn’t mean that for the next president- presidential election there will have been a whole bunch more pent-up demand.

[00:31:28] Maybe what we’re gonna see in the next cycle is the Democratic Party truly dying. Between this confluence of them having financial troubles, and then now choosing not to change when they’re getting very clear feedback that people want them to change and become more radical, I feel like that could pave the way for some form of partial or total collapse, followed by a replacement by something far more radical.

[00:31:55] But what’s your read on this? Am I freaking out about nothing, or am I seeing real tailwinds?

[00:31:59] Malcolm Collins: No, [00:32:00] the Boomer Democrats are basically controlling the party with an iron fist. They’ve shown no interest in letting go of the party that they’re controlling with an iron fist. If you look at the, the book that I said, the tell-all that came out in 2026 it’s called Evan Parker’s Nothing Left: Confessions of a Democratic Operative.

[00:32:15] She talks about how they have aggressively given up on the white working-class population. That it’s not even seen as something that they should want to aspire to like anymore. It’s now very much yeah, white working-class people are the problem, right? She also detailed e- everything was filtered through race, gender, and identity.

[00:32:35] Healthcare and economic issues for ordinary workers were considered secondary and had to be reframed in racial terms if anyone was gonna listen. Donors leaving voicemails saying that they wouldn’t give candidate wasn’t a woman of color if the candidate wasn’t a woman of color. Resumes of white men were just discarded.

[00:32:51] Language policies, e.g. correcting pregnant women to pregnant people. Barker argues donors and activists leaned into race and identity politics partially because it let them avoid the harder economic realities of facing non-college workers. She notes that the average American worker having only about $1,000 in retirement savings.

[00:33:10] Staffers and consultants allegedly use their own identity in bad faith to undercut and settle scores She said it had a Hollywood movie level of toxicity. She she says that the elite progressive type industrialized radicalism, she highlights people from wealthy, long time leftist families.

[00:33:29] Examples include Koe Cockburn, sister of Olivia Wilde h- who push hard left causes like defund the police style initiatives while living far from the consequences. This is something we all see. And her breaking point was getting iced out of campaigning after speaking up. The post 2020 woke peak culture and watching the party talk past heartland economic pain.

[00:33:53] Basically, she’s just “They don’t care about average...” Which everybody knows but I think she was shocked to see that no, they are explicitly a racist party. Their agenda is explicitly racist and explicitly about racial supremacy. And those factions if you wonder what it felt like to be in a country as the Nazis were gaining power, you are seeing it right now, right?

[00:34:14] They believe in a very explicit ethnic hierarchy. They believe in now you can And it’s something... and that’s the number one thing to them. And a lot of what’s getting dropped, as I’ve talked about and I think that we’re gonna move more in the direction of the, these factions getting dropped because of what we’re seeing here is the gay agenda if you wanna call it anything.

[00:34:37] The where they’re keeping their voter base and everything like that is going to lead to that being dropped more aggressively and faster than it otherwise would have. You for example, if a gay person tried to run in, among South Carolina Black Democrats, they’re not gonna win.

[00:34:50] Simone Collins: Oh.

[00:34:50] Malcolm Collins: I

[00:34:51] Simone Collins: mean, were they gonna win before?

[00:34:53] Malcolm Collins: No, they could win in Nevada. They could win in New Hampshire. They could win in a lot of states.

[00:34:57] Simone Collins: Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:57] Malcolm Collins: But they’re not gonna win among the, the Black South Carolina Democrats.

[00:35:01] Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s

[00:35:01] Malcolm Collins: true. Yeah. And I don’t even think somebody but will they go for... They will also push back against the Islamists, though.

[00:35:07] So that, that does give us the... these are the types of Democrats that are most likely to find somebody like Hassan disgusting or be deeply disinterested in a politician like Mondami.

[00:35:17] But it’s the same with the people who control the DNC, I think what we’re gonna see is some sort of coup within sort of the Democratic Party.

[00:35:23] I think that you could get enough excitement for one of the Islamist supporting candidates to actually have them work. So I think that’s where we’re going.

[00:35:34] Simone Collins: But that, that whole contingent is only going to have a very short-

[00:35:36] Malcolm Collins: I know, it’s only gonna age, and it’s, it radicalizes the younger contingents more, and I think it shows why we’re given a grace period to transition out of a d- Democratic state. But it’s something that’s likely a conversation that I am increasingly attempting to, and I think that we on the right need to think about

[00:35:54] if you have the types of people that they want to win in the White [00:36:00] House, right? If they take power, elections stop, right? Kamala has basically already said this. She’d said that the things that she regretted the most was not tabling changing the way election rules work and stuffing the Supreme Court with justices.

[00:36:14] Speaker: . It means being ruthless. , And we must allow for a real conversation about revisiting certain things.

[00:36:28] For example, and I know this is gonna be controversial coming from me in particular, we need to revisit the Electoral College. We need to revisit the point of expanding the Court to 13 justices, like we have 13 district courts. We need to revisit, if they so want, statehood for Puerto Rico and DC. Yes

[00:37:02] Malcolm Collins: Like-

[00:37:02] Simone Collins: Oh, as like what she was running on?

[00:37:04] Malcolm Collins: She said she should have run on that. She said she should have talked about it more as part of her plans. And apparently, I guess that means that was part of her plans. If they’re playing the game this way, we need to consider playing the game this way.

[00:37:15] And not in a panicked way, not in a running around with like a chicken with her head cut off way, but in a just realistically this is the direction we may need to go to have a stable country.

[00:37:25] Simone Collins: And this is something that came up in the episode that we ran on the different way that conservatives and liberals view each other, with conservatives viewing liberals- That hasn’t gone

[00:37:36] Malcolm Collins: live yet.

[00:37:37] This’ll probably go live before that.

[00:37:38] Simone Collins: Oh, okay. So there was research that came out recently that basically said that liberals dehumanize conservatives way more than conservatives realize. Basically, that’s the punchline. And with that being the case, liberals are going To do a lot more to undercut conservatives, and conservatives won’t realize that.

[00:37:56] They’ll be like, “What? Look, they, they have a, Senate majority this year. Whatever, the, the- their team won for now, ha, it’s fine.” And then they don’t realize that this, this group of people that is in power for this period really hates them, and also thinks that they hate them more than they actually do.

[00:38:15] That- yeah ... conservatives actually don’t hate conservatives that much ... the basic issue is that your average

[00:38:17] Malcolm Collins: conservative is unaware of how much the other... It y- most conservatives think s- liberals hate them. However much they think they hate you, scientifically you are underestimating it. And the correction there, the market correction there, is not to hate them more, but to be more willing to take drastic action while still treating them with love and empathy.

[00:38:39] Because I think that’s what makes the Conservative Party so strong, is what I argued in that episode.

[00:38:42] Simone Collins: And yeah. The, the, the, what you argued was that’s how you’re gonna get all the... can also win them over to your side when they get ex- a little bit of exposure to the right, actually what the right is, and then realize how not toxic it is, how healthy and wholesome it can be.

[00:38:56] It, ‘cause what you described in that book also, that sounded horrible. That sounded really-

[00:39:01] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...

[00:39:01] Simone Collins: not fun. Whereas it’s so clear that the people working for Republican, like, congressmen and stuff are having a good time.

[00:39:07] Malcolm Collins: Everyone- Yeah, we recently did an episode where they released Anthony Fauci’s diaries, and they made the first page styled like a teenage girl’s guidebook.

[00:39:14] And I’m like, oh my God, I love... It’s not just the White House Twitter team. It’s all across the White House. Yeah, this is not a toxic

[00:39:19] Simone Collins: environment. People don’t have that level of fun in a toxic environment. It’s just-

[00:39:24] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...

[00:39:25] Simone Collins: oh, God, it’s so good. It’s so good. It was, yeah, delightful and-

[00:39:29] Malcolm Collins: Get, let’s get Trump his third term.

[00:39:35] Simone Collins: I really can’t tell if he’s trolling or serious, and I think that the problem I have, which everyone has with us too, is that the answer is yes. He is trolling. He is serious. He is both. Is that your take too?

[00:39:51] Malcolm Collins: What? He is trolling, he is serious?

[00:39:53] Simone Collins: Running again.

[00:39:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. It’s what we want, [00:40:00] right?

[00:40:02] Simone Collins: I would be excited about Vance running. But it- the timeline is so weird now that I cannot predict what it will be like in two years. Are you g- are you looking at prediction markets?

[00:40:18] Malcolm Collins: No. Hold

[00:40:19] Simone Collins: on. Polly market.

[00:40:21] Malcolm Collins: I know that right now the two top candidates to win the next president are Marco Rubio or JD Vance.

[00:40:27] Simone Collins: 20% JD Vance. Okay, so 20% JD Vance, 13% Marco Rubio, 11% Gavin Newsom. Wow, why do they think a Republican’s gonna win? I thought mo- I figured people’s safe bets would be that-

[00:40:39] Malcolm Collins: it’s more th- that there’s just no strong candidate as a Democrat to win

[00:40:44] Simone Collins: And it’s insane. So after John Ossoff at 9% is A- well tied with AOC, 9%, they should tank AOC after what happened with South Carolina, right?

[00:40:58] Like, why? I guess people haven’t gone to change their- Who

[00:41:01] Malcolm Collins: else is running? That’s the problem. Who else?

[00:41:05] Simone Collins: There are- okay, Kamala Harris is after that at 5%, Donald Trump’s at 3%, and then Josh Shapiro’s at 3%. So Josh Shapiro and Kamala Harris, John Ossoff, I don’t know that much about him. But maybe him.

[00:41:18] But definitely in terms of both Josh Shapiro, po- Josh Shapiro would be a pretty good bet, actually. Everyone argues that Kamala probably could have won. Probably not, though, because he’s a Jew. Now, hold on, there’s no way that Josh Shapiro could win. Okay, so- Yeah, a

[00:41:35] Malcolm Collins: Jew

[00:41:36] Simone Collins: in

[00:41:36] Malcolm Collins: this political

[00:41:36] Simone Collins: climate?

[00:41:37] Kamala Harris? Oh not again. Could it be Kamala Harris again? I

[00:41:44] Malcolm Collins: did a, we did a video on that, and everyone’s like, “No, it won’t really happen this far out.” You wait and see.

[00:41:50] Simone Collins: We might- Well, look at the viable Democrats, ‘cause I just don’t know if... Okay, let’s see what John Ossoff looks like, ‘cause if you look presidential that really fricking helps.

[00:41:59] I don’t know. He doesn’t look... He could look presidential. It depends on the photo. Depends on the photo. He has kids. He has a wife and kids. He’s tall. That’s good. He looks to be very tall. That helps. I

[00:42:14] Malcolm Collins: could see somebody who I think people are

[00:42:15] Simone Collins: probably oh- He- he’s a Democrat from Georgia. That helps.

[00:42:20] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[00:42:20] Simone Collins: Maybe he’s awesome. If I had to put my money somewhere, I would just do it out of hope that it’s not Kamala.

[00:42:26] Malcolm Collins: Everybody says that the, the person who’s running who would be incredibly strong if he runs is the Biden Jr. or whatever his name is.

[00:42:35] Simone Collins: Oh my God, yes. Yes. Where is he on Polymarket?

[00:42:39] Hunter Biden. Hunter. Control + F. Oh, no. Maybe... Didn’t he commit a felony? And maybe you’re not allowed to run for president. No,

[00:42:50] Malcolm Collins: No, because he’s talked about running. He knows, he knows-

[00:42:53] Simone Collins: At least Dwayne The Rock Johnson is at 2%. I would... Oh, we’d have to vote Democrat if we’re Dwayne The Rock Johnson.

[00:42:59] Malcolm Collins: He’s,

[00:42:59] Simone Collins: he’s- It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t

[00:43:00] Malcolm Collins: matter.

[00:43:02] Simone Collins: I would

[00:43:02] Malcolm Collins: still vote for Rogan, but he’s he seems like a cool guy.

[00:43:05] Simone Collins: Dwayne The Rock Malcolm.

[00:43:06] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he seems like a cool guy.

[00:43:07] Simone Collins: We need to keep pushing the celebrity president era or we cannot bring Idiocracy into fruition.

[00:43:14] Malcolm Collins: The-

[00:43:14] Simone Collins: Okay?

[00:43:14] Malcolm Collins: Actually. Yeah.

[00:43:16] But no, I think Hunter Biden is the obvious choice for the next mainstream Democrat. He’s an incredibly strong candidate. He appeals to both factions very well.

[00:43:24] Simone Collins: Yeah he’s the rebel. He’s... Yeah he’s he’s the deposed prin- or like the what’s the word? The banished prince, the bad boy. Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, the bad boy. He

[00:43:33] Malcolm Collins: could become a- Very Trump energy. Yeah.

[00:43:35] Very,

[00:43:35] Simone Collins: Non-recognized trooper baby. Yeah, he’s... Yeah, he could do it. Maybe he could, yeah. Didn’t he... Wasn’t he on with Nick Fuentes? Maybe he’s really doing the rounds. He could, like- Yeah, no, he

[00:43:43] Malcolm Collins: did a, he did an interview with Nick Fuentes.

[00:43:45] Come on. He’s- Wow ... he knows how to play the game.

[00:43:48] Simone Collins: He could pick off a lot of the young conservative men. Oh.

[00:43:52] Malcolm Collins: He’s literally... When D- when Fuentes is like, “I want my faction to join the Democrats,” he could enable that functionally.

[00:43:59] Simone Collins: [00:44:00] Wowee. That’s... Okay, that’s- Ooh.

[00:44:05] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, seriously. I, like Nick isn’t like performatively joining the Democrats.

[00:44:10] He’s like fully in on it now, right? And-

[00:44:13] Simone Collins: That’s fun ...

[00:44:14] Malcolm Collins: his candidate- I wanna read

[00:44:14] Simone Collins: his secret diaries. I wanna read Nick Fuentes’ diaries, and not the fan fiction version that’s no doubt on Archive of Our Own. Damn. ‘Cause he’s up to something. You know his dear diaries would be so fun. “Today I went to Mar-a-Lago with Kanye,” or whatever he was calling himself then, “and we had lunch, and they served chocolate cake.”

[00:44:38] That chocolate cake was really good, Malcolm. Do you remember it?

[00:44:41] Malcolm Collins: From Mar-a-Lago? Yeah. I don’t remember the cake. I remember Mar-a-Lago. I, the the main takeaway for me on that trip is in person Trump is way more charismatic than he is over the air, which is saying a lot.

[00:44:51] Simone Collins: Saying a lot. It really is saying a lot.

[00:44:52] That is really... Damn, yeah.

[00:44:55] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he’s got- And Mar-a-Lago is different ... massive rizz. I don’t have that level of rizz. I could never- Yeah, nor would I ... I will admit when I am genuine- When you’ve been outrizzzed. I... Yeah, I’m a very arrogant person. ... I’m a very self-confident person, and I’m here saying-

[00:45:08] Simone Collins: Not as self-confident as Trump.

[00:45:10] You would not call newspapers and pretend to be your own press agent.

[00:45:15] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I don’t have

[00:45:16] Simone Collins: that level of confidence. That is moxy. Yes. Oh. That is the coolest- I love, my favorite is when I hear like super hard left, like trans hard left like people go on about how they’re like, “It’s a shame that Trump became a politician, because he’s such a great character.”

[00:45:32] They want to love him. Yeah. And they do secretly, they just hate the concept of him. What a guy, huh? Yeah. I also understand why he’s so obsessed with the White House ballroom. It just it, as much as everyone’s, they hate on it now, f- all future presidents are gonna be so thrilled about it as a fundraising venue that’s, it’s like stupid to even...

[00:45:59] I don’t know why the Democrats aren’t practically paying for it. They’re the ones who need to fundraise more. Y- you can just mint money with a ballroom like that. Because who in their right mind is going to turn down a fundraising dinner invitation at the White House, Malcolm?

[00:46:13] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[00:46:14] Simone Collins: It pays for itself.

[00:46:15] Unfortunately it doesn’t, because that’s not how the money’s gonna flow, but like- Anyway, like that, that giant dining room at Mar-a-Lago, like obviously Trump must have figured out had, I m- he must know and use it as a cash cow. And Mar-a-Lago was previously a presidential retreat. Like, all of this makes sense.

[00:46:37] All of this- ... anyway, way off topic. I love you so much.

[00:46:41] Malcolm Collins: Love you

[00:46:41] Simone Collins: too. Let me get the kids who are apparently loose in the house.

[00:46:44] Malcolm Collins: On the bok choy, when you use it in the fried rice tonight- Okay.

[00:46:47] Simone Collins: Yes ...

[00:46:47] Malcolm Collins: be sure to wash it after the leaves have been taken out, because I noticed like bugs and rotting things in between the leaves.

[00:46:53] Simone Collins: Trust me, I always fully submerge. I do not trust, I just- No, you

[00:46:56] Malcolm Collins: didn’t, you did- hold on. I didn’t say fully. If you fully submerge it, it will not clean it. You have to fully

[00:47:01] Simone Collins: submerge it- Take the leaves off. Take the leaves off ... after- I know. Every it doesn’t... You can’t. So if you were to fully submerge like a head of lettuce in water, you have done functionally nothing.

[00:47:11] That- Okay ... i’m aware of this. I have watched thousands of hours of cooking shows as a functional anorexic teenager, okay? I know how this works. I know the methods. It’s fine. I it will be... But yeah, you have these two- And don’t use

[00:47:26] Malcolm Collins: too much because we still got some other stuff to go through,

[00:47:28] Simone Collins: what other stuff to go through?

[00:47:29] Malcolm Collins: Don’t we still have some sh- shishitos and peppers and- Oh,

[00:47:31] Simone Collins: yeah. Actually, so I pre-cut those last night, so I’m not gonna do the bok choy tonight. I’m gonna start using it tomorrow night, if you don’t mind.

[00:47:36] Malcolm Collins: Okay,

[00:47:36] Octavian Collins: great. ‘

[00:47:37] Simone Collins: Cause we’re also, it’s the weekend tomorrow, so we’re gonna be, like unable to leave the house as a- We’ve gotta

[00:47:42] Malcolm Collins: gas this floor because we keep finding wasps.

[00:47:44] So we gotta find some thing to go out and do.

[00:47:48] Simone Collins: Oh, no. I’m gonna wait until Monday. I wanna fact find We’ve only found three so far, so

[00:47:55] Malcolm Collins: That’s a lot of wasps.

[00:47:58] Simone Collins: I could tape off. We can tape off [00:48:00] the doors. Do you wanna just do that? Just tape off the doors?

[00:48:03] Malcolm Collins: Wh- where do you think they’re coming from? You think they’re coming

[00:48:05] Simone Collins: from the hallway? The attic. I think they’re in the attic. They’re in the attic. There’s a nest in the... I pr- I’m pretty sure there’s a nest in my attic

[00:48:14] Malcolm Collins: Oh.

[00:48:15] That’d be really easy to solve then.

[00:48:17] Simone Collins: Yeah, you just... I have to run an extension cord up there, but yeah.

[00:48:21] Malcolm Collins: All

[00:48:21] Simone Collins: right. The idea is I run it up there, I tape the door, I run it up there. The ozone kills the wasps. Unless the, the attic is incredibly permeable to outside air. I don’t think it’s that permeable.

[00:48:32] I think it’s gonna be enough. ‘Cause we gotta pretty good- No, I think

[00:48:35] Malcolm Collins: that would be enough.

[00:48:36] Simone Collins: Yeah. So what do you... so keep in mind the attics are connected, so if they’re in your attic for whatever reason, it will probably also get to it. I would have to run it at max. You would need to vacate the floor and open all the windows immediately if you smell ozone, of course.

[00:48:48] Like-

[00:48:49] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...

[00:48:49] Simone Collins: but y- I think I can have you still working upstairs and do it by if we tape both of the doors.

[00:48:56] Malcolm Collins: Okay.

[00:49:00] Gotta kill those wasps

[00:49:03] Simone Collins: I know. I know. I feel bad for the one wasp that’s stuck under the cup

[00:49:10] Malcolm Collins: Okay, release it outside, but it’ll just be back inside tomorrow. If it’s living inside and you release it outside, it’s just coming right back inside, and you’re going to gas their nest anyway I

[00:49:22] Simone Collins: know

[00:49:25] Malcolm Collins: You are too empathetic, Simone

[00:49:26] Simone Collins: She’ll die with her friends that way.

[00:49:29] Malcolm Collins: Okay, release her outside and deal with it.

[00:49:33] Simone Collins: I would want to die with my friends. Right now she’s just very scared and alone

[00:49:41] Okay. Bye.

[00:49:45] Malcolm Collins: You’re two of... This is women. This is why women can’t be president.

[00:49:49] Simone Collins: Melvin- The what? Who deals with all the dead animals? Okay? Who-

[00:49:54] Malcolm Collins: Okay, I love you, Simone.

[00:49:56] Simone Collins: I love you too.

[00:49:58] Speaker 2: Titan, what do you call this?

[00:50:03] Your gymnastics? Yeah. Okay.

[00:50:09] What do, what do you call your move, Titan?

[00:50:21] Banovr? What? Mia, I did a backflip That was pretty impressive, Toasties Can you do it again? Whoa

[00:50:36] I’m watching right now, friend

[00:50:41] Yeah, I’m taking a video of Toasty doing his little fliparoo You’re not scared, Toasty. You’re the bravest of all. Go, Toasty, go. Go, Toasty, go. Go, Toasty, go. Go, Toasty, go Is that your move, Toasty?

[00:51:10] Whoa! There you go. Ooh, full flip The backflip And there’s the chicken just hanging out

[00:51:25] Hi, Indie Girl You wanna swing?

[00:51:37] Whoa. Whoa, whoa. Are you alarmed by the fast movement? Girly

[00:51:49] Guys

[00:51:55] Okay, come with me, love. Let’s see what the chickens are up [00:52:00] to.

In this episode of Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone Collins unpack the “Cheating Coven” — the TikTok-to-business pipeline of proud cheaters who turned affairs into a coaching brand, private community, and alleged harassment operation.

They dig into the Mary Sue’s coverage of Chelsea Smallwood (“The Other Woman and the Wife”) and the lawsuit filed by a betrayed spouse after private texts, photos of children, health details, and claims of using her sex toys were shared inside a paid cheater community for mockery and humiliation.

From the evolutionary psychology of female infidelity and “mean-girl” dominance displays, to the breakdown of real-world community spaces that once contained this behavior, the urban monoculture’s “love justifies everything” framing, code-switching, and practical advice for men navigating modern dating, this is an unfiltered look at a cultural phenomenon that even progressive outlets found too degenerate.

Would you like to know more?

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: everybody complains that as we’ve broken down our sense of community, that it’s removed the opportunity

[00:00:06] Simone Collins: for- To bully and

[00:00:07] Malcolm Collins: terrorize

[00:00:07] friendships, for, you know, love, for a sense of community. But it also removed the ability for people who get turned on by, like, cheating with people and then harassing their spouses from having a community of, like, mean girls they can do that with, right? Yeah. So they’ve had to reinvent these spaces for the new world of the internet.

[00:00:29] Would you like to know more?

[00:00:31] Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. Today we will be talking about an incident that the Mary Sue, the Mary Sue, the most leftist, you know, degenerate thing you can imagine, right?

[00:00:43] As a, as a news article.

[00:00:44] Simone Collins: Okay.

[00:00:45] Malcolm Collins: Their title on this is what I can only describe as pure degeneracy, Proud Cheaters Sued For Allegedly Using A Cheating Coach Business To Bully Betrayed Spouses.

[00:01:01] Simone Collins: Wow. I mean, whoa. I... Wait

[00:01:07] The, no, th- this is peak girl... No, this is, okay, I- I’ve come to a conclusion. The, the gear has to finish processing. This is peak girl boss feminism, right? Because what you saw was a whole bunch of influencers all selling their courses, and all the courses on legitimate things, well, they ran out. And so then they went to MLMs, but then all the ML- MLMs, like, they ran out.

[00:01:25] Like, they, they’ve gone bankrupt or become scandalous or people have gotten smart to it. So the only thing left for them to sell courses on is cheating.

[00:01:34] Malcolm Collins: And the communities that they created, for some examples of the what we’ll get into here- Okay ... and what, what we’ll be able to take away from, ‘cause it’s important to try to learn some lesson from this, avoid this, et cetera, right?

[00:01:48] Simone Collins: What’s the lesson? Maybe don’t create a course on how to cheat?

[00:01:52] Malcolm Collins: Well, so they would go into the private paid community for cheating women and share stuff like stories about how they had slept with the partner while the other partner was, like, asleep i- in the bed or in the same

[00:02:07] Simone Collins: house. Oh.

[00:02:07] Malcolm Collins: Or-

[00:02:08] Simone Collins: This is a, is this like a cuck thing?

[00:02:10] Malcolm Collins: Or that they had used the other partner’s sex toys, or that they had taken pictures of the original partner that included their kids and put them next to pictures of herself

[00:02:23] To ask which is more attractive in the community. Like, and th- this is what eventually caused the lawsuit was all the shared private information. But it’s a fascinating phenomenon that I wanted to dig into, that it has even mortified the Mary Sue. And it’s been developing for a while.

[00:02:44] It’s been developing as a situation over a number of years. People have been covering it for a number of years, but now we basically have the full story and where things are. All right?

[00:02:52] Simone Collins: Well.

[00:02:53] Malcolm Collins: So Chelsea Smallwood, a TikTok creator who made being a cheater her entire platform, is now facing a lawsuit after her cheating business shared private information and betrayed spouses to further bully and mock them.

[00:03:05] Now note here this is from the Mary Sue article, so you know it’s maximum lefty slop here. They’re... I, I’m not pulling any punches. And what’s also fascinating about this is, is what it really appeared to be. When they talk about bully and mocking them you say, “Is this a cuck fetish?” It appeared to genuinely be a fetish, a, a fetish around basically the other side of an NTR fetish, like getting turned on by the thought of humiliating somebody’s partner by sleeping with their, their partner.

[00:03:35] Yeah ... a- a- and in that way, the paid community where they could, without judgment, talk about this the, the, that sort of heightened the erotic nature of what they were doing in their

[00:03:54] Simone Collins: mind. Yeah, they seemed... They, they liked this. It wasn’t like, “Oh, phew, I’m glad I got away with that.”

[00:03:58] Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah- It was- And [00:04:00] we’ll go over.

[00:04:00] It’s also very funny, like what a, what a cheating coach does. Like, the idea that she would like sit down with these people and like talk them through like all the emotional parts of, of cheating with some- Right? Like, you need a psychologist for this, but somebody who won’t judge you, right? So you talk through the emotions of like, “Well, is he spending too much time with her?”

[00:04:25] It’s like, well, it is his wife.

[00:04:29] Simone Collins: Oh, I thought it was for practical things, like make sure that you guys communicate using this app, and if you wanna receive gift from, gifts from him, make sure that you do it this way so the wife doesn’t find out or things like that. The, no, the

[00:04:40] Malcolm Collins: core thing seemed to be about like the bragging and humiliating part.

[00:04:43] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:44] Malcolm Collins: But there was stuff on like how to get around tracking apps and stuff like that, and we’ll, we’ll get around that, onto that. So Smallwood started gaining traction on the social, on social media for posting, quote-unquote, “cheating content,” calling herself The Other Woman and the Wife.

[00:04:58] She made several TikTok videos bragging about her affair. One such video was titled Things Your Husband Did While He Was in an Affair With Me. In the video, she dances joyously while bragging about things she and her cheating partner did, such as going on a trip with her on his and his wife’s anniversary and setting up a secret bank account to hide all the trips and gifts he was buying Smallwood.

[00:05:21] Smallwood made dozens of similar TikToks talking unapologetically about her affair and demonizing victims of cheating, claiming it was relatable affair content. She eventually decided to turn The Other Woman and Wife into a business featuring podcasts, retreats, and private communities for cheaters to congregate and exchange tips and resources.

[00:05:45] And I’ll post a video of one of her TikToks here so you guys can get an idea of what these looked like.

[00:05:50] Speaker 9: Phone while he was with me, and I could hear everything.

[00:05:53] Lied to you repeatedly about where he was. And again, just to check in on the video that she’s posting with, it’s her cheersing while she drinks cocktails with this music. Didn’t tell you the actual full truth when you caught him. “Technically I cheated. I will admit that. I turned away from my spouse of three years and I hurt him because of that choice, but that doesn’t mean I define myself as a cheater.

[00:06:14] To this day, I reject the motto of once a cheater, always a cheater. It’s reductionist and judgemental.”

[00:06:20] Malcolm Collins: She isn’t the first person to have the idea of turning cheating into a business platform. , From Smallwood to Ashley Madison to the incest spotlight on Amie Roach or TJ Holmes, there have long been pushes to normalize infidelity, provide resources to cheaters, and profit off of affairs.

[00:06:37] However, normalizing infidelity wasn’t Smallwood’s only mission. She took things to another level when she allegedly attempted to make cyberbullying and harassment of victims’ infidelity part of the business, too. Chelsea Smallwood and Her Businesses Sued by Cheating Victim. Part of The Other Woman and the Wife actually a coaching business.

[00:06:54] Smallwood, who has a BA in economics, has no qualifications to serve as a l- life coach or counselor. I love when leftists gatekeep around counseling. Yet her website has an application form in which individuals can get one-on-one coaching. Oh, no. You’d say, basically The Mary Sue’s problem here is that she wasn’t...

[00:07:19] To teach women how to better cheat on their husbands, that she needed to be a licensed psychologist. Like, that seems to be, for them, the bigger problem. Like, how dare she? I, I would assume, actually, that a woman who spends her entire career talking about cheating would know more about cheating than a psychologist would, right?

[00:07:45] Like-

[00:07:45] Simone Collins: Truly. No, I- if I wanted to cheat on you, Malcolm, I, and I wanted a coach for it, I would probably go with the woman who cheats a lot, l- allegedly. Yeah, I mean- I guess I’d want proof of the cheating, ‘cause we don’t know this is all just some rage bait she made up [00:08:00] to get followers.

[00:08:01] Malcolm Collins: Oh, no, no, no, no. The relationships broke up, everything like that.

[00:08:04] We’ll go over it. Oh,

[00:08:05] Simone Collins: okay, okay. Well, as long as she has a track record.

[00:08:07] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know how much track record she, she had after she became the cheating woman, right? Like, I, I’d, I’d have some questions about that. Like, I, I... Especially dating her or something, like it’s gonna come out eventually, right?

[00:08:23] And- No, I mean, that’s how one of the, the person who found out about this found out is they joined her community to find their husband on it being posted by one of the other members of the community. Now she says she joined it ‘cause she was suspicious, but we’ll see. We’ll see. Hmm. One of the coaches working with Smallwood was Olivia Nicodermus, who had an affair with her best friend and neighbor’s husband.

[00:08:46] Things took an ugly turn when Nicodermus allegedly began using the Other Woman community to share private information about Kristin Jacobs, the victim of her affair. Oh, great. I, I love it’s, like, their best fair- friend and everything like that, right? Like, Jacobs has filed a lawsuit against the Other Woman and the wife Smallwood and Nicodermus, seeking damages after Smallwood and Nicodermus allegedly used the cheating business to encourage the harassment of her.

[00:09:10] After learning of her husband Nicodermus’ affair, Jacobs started researching the Other Woman and the wife, and was horrified when she stumbled on a TikTok reel of Smallwood reading her private text messages about her affair out loud, word per word. In an attempt to find out how Smallwood got this information, Jacobs anonymously joined the Other Woman community and saw Nicodermus had been posting private information, including identifying information like her full name, pictures of her children, and even disclosed details of private health matters.

[00:09:40] The information and text messages were allegedly posted publicly so that other cheaters in the community could mock, bully, and harass Jacobs for being a victim. Oh. But that’s not why. They know why. It’s because it turned the person on to share the information. Like, the humiliation was part of it for this, and to prove that they’d actually done it.

[00:09:56] Like you said, how do you know they’re really doing it, right?

[00:09:59] Simone Collins: Yeah, so hold on. I wonder, so when you wrote The Pragmatist’s Guide to Sexuality, you described some people as really only being able to become to be aroused by people with whom they had a strong emotional connection. Which actually explains rule 34, because, like, you know, you grew up watching Daphne on Scooby-Doo.

[00:10:16] And so now, you know, you- You need to, whatever. We’re not gonna get into that, right? But like- Yeah ... maybe there’s this, this cheating, there’s k- some kind of weird perversion of that particular pattern whereby you can only really feel something if you’re hurting someone who you deeply, like, know, like your best friend.

[00:10:34] Malcolm Collins: Well, well cheating in males, generally speaking,

[00:10:38] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:10:38] Malcolm Collins: for

[00:10:39] Simone Collins: a lot of- Well, cheating in males just seems like, look, men are like-

[00:10:41] Malcolm Collins: There’s like an obvious biological reason to cheat in

[00:10:43] Simone Collins: males. Yes. Women, it’s different. Women, it’s weird.

[00:10:46] Malcolm Collins: Right. But it makes sense that sometimes females may get parts of a male arousal pattern.

[00:10:53] That’s- Hmm ... what this looks like to me. Hmm. And in addition, think about the things that she’s showing off. They’re all, they’re not, “The sex is so good.” They’re things like, “He took me on a vacation. He has a private bank account

[00:11:07] Simone Collins: which he gave me gifts.” No, so I think, I think it’s about the self-validation that I could get this male to spend resources on me, even though it’s against

[00:11:13] Malcolm Collins: you.

[00:11:13] Well, no, that, that’s the point, right? And that is- Hmm ... something that many women would value from an evolutionary perspective, right? Like-

[00:11:18] Simone Collins: Yes. No, for sure. Yes.

[00:11:19] Malcolm Collins: And they would be- ... get a man to give you more stuff. Yeah. I get...

[00:11:24] Simone Collins: So the affair isn’t even, it’s not even really about the intimate stuff that happens.

[00:11:30] Yeah. Okay. Yes.

[00:11:32] Malcolm Collins: However, it got worse. In the lawsuit, Jacobs claims that Smallwood encouraged Nicodemus to publicly admit to horrific acts, such as bragging about spying on Jacobs during intimate moments with her husband, and using Jacobs’ sex toys on herself without consent. The TikTok influencer, The Dadvocate, summed up the law piece best, stating that Smallwood, Nicodemus, and their company are being sued for what I can only describe as pure degeneracy.

[00:11:55] Simone Collins: That’s why you shouldn’t have sex toys, ‘cause you never know what could be happening to [00:12:00] them.

[00:12:01] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And the, and The Dadvocate had noted how a lot of online sleuths have been very important to this. However, she didn’t act quickly enough, as users found because she tried to remove her TikTok, oh, she wiped her TikTok.

[00:12:12] Well, hopefully I can still find some stuff. Oh, no. No, no, no. People have clipped it. Evidence to prove Jacob’s claims. Yeah. They found a public comment from Nicodemus offering to give a user a comparison photo to prove she was better looking than Jacobs, as well as a comment from Smallwood in which she claims to have contacted Jacob’s therapist and been told she was a useless cause.

[00:12:31] What? F- from Smallwood. So the woman who was cheating on this lady contacted her therapist and said that the woman who the therapist was being a therapist for was a useless cause-

[00:12:46] Simone Collins: Wait, wait ... and should be given up. Wait, isn’t she claiming that the therapist said that the victim of her cruelty was a worthless

[00:12:51] Malcolm Collins: cause?

[00:12:52] No, no, no. She’s trying to get the therapist to dump the victim of her cruelty.

[00:12:55] Simone Collins: Oh.

[00:12:55] As, yeah. Oh, gosh, that’s ridiculous. It’s for money. It’s not to help people. Lady, she must be too convinced that therapy culture helps anything. Ai, ai.

[00:13:08] Malcolm Collins: It’s not necessarily wrong to acknowledge that infidelity in relationships can be far more complex than we have it on its surface.

[00:13:14] However, the Smallwood situation demonstrates that there should be a limit. I love a, a progressive paper here being like, “Look, we all know that infidelity is fine, but, like, can we have a limit on this?”

[00:13:31] Attempting to raise awareness for the complexity of some cases of infidelity is very different from outright glorifying cheaters and encouraging cheaters to be unapologetic for unnecessary and harmful actions. Mm. Is it, though?

[00:13:44] Mm.

[00:13:45] Additionally, as proud as Smallwood and Nicodemus claim to be about their affairs, their alleged actions suggest they’re on they’re on the contrary deeply ashamed, insecure, and unfathomably jealous.

[00:13:56] They’re hardly the people who should be coaching cheating spouses if they themselves are so clearly insecure in their affair relationships. I love that they’re implying if you’re emotionally mature, that’s the type of person who should be cheating, not these types of women. By the way, just in case you’re wondering who saw it from this perspective the writer, it works for Mary Sue, but usually covers DC, Marvel, and Star Wars.

[00:14:22] You wonder how those ind- those things got so bad. Hmm. You wonder how. You wonder how. So I wanted to talk about this from the meta perspective of how things like cheating get glorified and how things like divorce can act as a contagion. But before I get into that, I wanna hear your thoughts, Simone because that- that’s obviously what the audience wants to hear.

[00:14:47] That’s what they’re here for.

[00:14:49] Simone Collins: I’m so depressed by this. Although I, I also wish I could just wander through. I... You know how I am. Like, when I discover some new perverted thing that people do, I want to understand it so much more, and I had no idea that women were into this. It sounds to me like next level mean girling.

[00:15:11] Like, high school’s over, and you’re kind of devastated that you can’t terrorize female peers anymore, and then the- they just like this, this one group of mean girls tapped in to this new channel by which they can immiserate women in their lives. Because they don’t go to, like, the same school. They’re not stuck in the same classes every day.

[00:15:33] Very true.

[00:15:34] Malcolm Collins: So it’s an

[00:15:34] Simone Collins: interesting thing. There- there’s- And I wanna, I wanna explore it ... a lot

[00:15:34] Malcolm Collins: of opportunities to terrorize other people like this-

[00:15:37] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:15:38] Malcolm Collins: if that’s, like, your thing.

[00:15:39] Simone Collins: And to, like, show how dominant you are and how much better you are, and you’re prettier, and yeah. And you can’t, yeah, you can’t put people down the same way.

[00:15:47] It ju- like, our society isn’t really set up for that anymore. There aren’t, like... You know, it used to be that you were in a really tight-knit community. Like, in the, in the ‘50s, all the girls in your neighborhood might meet together for their bridge [00:16:00] club every week, and you’d go to church. And you could all, you know, you could be a mean girl there.

[00:16:04] You could put her, you could put all the o- the other girls down and talk about how cheap their Sunday best was and how pathetic, you know, i- it is to- This is

[00:16:11] Malcolm Collins: actually a really good point. Are things like cheating cl- everybody complains that as we’ve broken down our sense of community, that it’s removed the opportunity

[00:16:21] Simone Collins: for- To bully and

[00:16:22] Malcolm Collins: terrorize

[00:16:22] friendships, for, you know, love, for a sense of community. But it also removed the ability for people who get turned on by, like, cheating with people and then harassing their spouses from having a community of, like, mean girls they can do that with, right? Yeah. So they’ve had to reinvent these spaces for the new world of the internet.

[00:16:44] Simone Collins: And they found, they tapped into a little vein of gold here. And I, I wish I could explore it because this is fascinating. Well- I haven’t been so fascinated by something until I discovered people stuck Sharpies in a place that I never thought they would stick Sharpies.

[00:16:58] Malcolm Collins: I love your, like, “But why?” But why?

[00:17:02] You remind very much of the kids in South Park when they’re like, “Chef, why would a priest wanna stick up my butt?” The chef’s like, “Good day.” But that’s you. That’s you with this stuff.

[00:17:13] Yes.

[00:17:14] Speaker 2: Why would he put anything in your butts? We don’t know. That’s what we’re trying to figure out. Hmm.

[00:17:19] Hmm. Hello there, children. Chef, why would a priest want to stick up my butt? Goodbye.

[00:17:29] Malcolm Collins: But- Why do they stick them up their butt? I want to know. What’s going on? I,

[00:17:35] Simone Collins: I wanted to know. I wanted to know.

[00:17:37] I wanted to understand the googly eyes as well.

[00:17:40] Malcolm Collins: I love also in, like, the podcast the way she talks about this stuff. So let’s go over some of her, her own framings about this. Yeah. Please. “It needs one woman to be betrayed and one woman to be the homewrecker, because if both of their loves are real, the whole framework collapses.

[00:18:03] Two women loved the same man. Both knew him. Both saw something. Both stayed for reasons that made sense from the inside.”

[00:18:14] Hmm.

[00:18:15] Well, this is where do- for that to make sense to somebody, it, it does make sense to somebody in the urban monoculture. The, in, in the urban monoculture because, like, love is supposed to be your guide in life and the thing that determines what you do and why you do it.

[00:18:29] You know, you, you’re, like, legit able to go out there and be like, “Yeah, but I loved him, so of course I cheated.” Right? Like, “What else would I do when I love somebody?” Yeah ... I have to have, have sex with them.

[00:18:43] Simone Collins: Right, like- Let’s do something that potentially explodes their life and stability. Yeah.

[00:18:48] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, I actually- Thanks a lot

[00:18:49] I think a lot of this is, is, is downstream of the normalization of the LG, the, or the way that the gay movement fought for equal rights. Because that was actually the logic that they used, and that, you know, worked for a lot of people when they didn’t put a lot of thought into it, which is, well, am I supposed to go my whole life without sleeping with someone who I love and being married to them?

[00:19:15] Right? Like, am I supposed to go my entire existence without being able to have sex with the people who turn me on? And when I first heard that argument as a kid, I was like, “That makes perfect-king sense. Of course. I should get the things I want,” right? And then, as I’ve said in the past, the thing that broke me out of that argument was the way that the leftists have decided to treat incels who cannot sleep with the things that they like, right?

[00:19:45] Mm-hmm. And they think that that is funny and a reason to denigrate them and a sign that they are low status. And that is when I was like, “Oh, sorry, I didn’t understand. You meant hot men and women should be able to sleep with whoever they [00:20:00] want.” Well, all women and hot men. ... Not everyone, right?

[00:20:04] You know, phew, ugly men, come on, not even people, right? I mean, Homac often does this in his, i- this sort of thing where he’s like, when women say that, you know, that nobody’s interested in them, and then he, like, wipes out the bottom 80% of men. But, like, actually, and he, it puts a, like, a little ghost over them, right?

[00:20:24] Like, like a little, draws a little ghost. Like, “Look, no one can see them.” We’ve had him on the show before, guys. He’s a great guy. He’s

[00:20:29] Simone Collins: so

[00:20:29] Malcolm Collins: great,

[00:20:30] Simone Collins: yeah

[00:20:32] Malcolm Collins: The okay. But I think he’s got, like, a deeper point there than I think is often seen.

[00:20:40] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:20:40] Malcolm Collins: Which is it’s not just women who ignore the vast majority of men who can’t get a partner, right?

[00:20:47] Like, I’m not gonna say the vast majority. Let’s say 60%, right, just have very little shot. 65%. The these men... And, and note here, this isn’t just based on attractiveness, right? Like, if you get rich as a guy, it doesn’t really matter. If you’re super smart or passionate, it doesn’t really matter. Yeah. In fact, as a guy, those things are, like, dramatically bigger in fact assets to you than your looks.

[00:21:08] Simone Collins: Duh, totally. Yeah.

[00:21:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, I mean, this is why I always, like... It’s not that girls may not prefer it if you were slightly more buff. But as a male, there’s almost always something that you could be putting your time into, and not just one thing, but usually about 20 things you could be putting your time into that would have more impact on how attractive the gir- the type of girl you would want is to you.

[00:21:33] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:21:33] Like, Beauty and the Beast wouldn’t be a trope. A minotaur milking farm, or morning, sorry, morning glory milking farm would not be. Like, look, women aren’t naturally super hot for literal monster types, okay?

[00:21:46] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, well, those are pretty muscular monsters. You know, could rip ‘em apart. You know, someone-

[00:21:50] Simone Collins: That’s only a demonstration of their ability to have prowess in some, in some sector.

[00:21:55] Yeah. Actually, I think that’s one reason why weightlifting is so big with men trying to attract women, because i- if, if you’re kind of lower stats on the height or attractiveness, you can still boost, you know, if it’s not also intelligence or wealth, if you’ve really, like, fancy muscles.

[00:22:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we’ve pointed out, like, anyone can gain muscle, so it’s a good- Mm-hmm

[00:22:12] like, backup for a lot of guys. Yeah. Whereas a lot of guys, if they... Well, maybe this is true, and I, I should reword this. For a guy like me, if I spend time studying or working on a project, I will achieve more- Your

[00:22:24] Simone Collins: payout would be big. Yeah, but if you don’t have that kind of aptitude, then it’s lost time.

[00:22:29] You have to look at where you have good aptitude.

[00:22:32] Malcolm Collins: True. Yeah, I guess if you’re at the bottom of the barrel of aptitude, then weightlifting probably is the best thing you can do with your time.

[00:22:37] Simone Collins: Well, or maybe you have a big aptitude for weightlifting. Like, if you, if you f- if you could just do it endlessly, like you really enjoy it, then that’s- True, yeah

[00:22:44] a good thing to lean into, right? You know, we, we, this, this- Or you’re doing it while you’re listening to lectures ... podcast does well because it just comes naturally to us, right? Like, it’s our fun time, and so that’s easy. So if going to the gym is someone’s fun and relaxing time, whereas, like, all the other things you could be doing to attract a mate are not, then it’s a great, smart thing to do.

[00:23:02] Malcolm Collins: You make a strong point, Simone. I am-

[00:23:04] Simone Collins: Well, thanks, Malcolm

[00:23:07] Malcolm Collins: I am but I also think that, that the, a big mistake that guys make in these communities, and we’ve talked about this in other videos, but it’s just worth surfacing again. If you look at the studies on this, and they always brush it off. They’re like, “You see in short-term pairing, it matters a ton.

[00:23:22] But with people looking for longer-term pairing, it doesn’t matter as much.” And and then they’re like, “But, you know, like, short-term’s what we want. We want casual sex.” But if you’re like, “No, I want a, I want a lifelong partner,” you can see why that looking overly buff can have the exact negative effect by attracting the type of woman who’s looking for casual sex- Yeah

[00:23:43] instead of the type of woman who’s looking for somebody she’s gonna have to spend the rest of her life with.

[00:23:46] Simone Collins: Absolutely.

[00:23:47] Malcolm Collins: But let’s go over some of the other things she says here. “The only infidelity you can prevent is your own.”

[00:23:58] The wife and the other woman are [00:24:00] not enemies. They are two women being asked the same question by the same culture, and both of their answers are being treated as evidence of poor judgment.

[00:24:12] The, the, like, do you love him is the question, right? You

[00:24:15] Simone Collins: know? Oh, okay. Sorry, this is difficult for me to understand.

[00:24:20] Malcolm Collins: She’s trying to be poetic and flowery and, you know, I don’t understand poem stuff, so

[00:24:25] Simone Collins: the, this is, this is very trying.

[00:24:28] Malcolm Collins: How could she love him is it not a question. It’s a verdict dressed as a concern.

[00:24:35] Simone Collins: Oh.

[00:24:37] Malcolm Collins: Wow.

[00:24:38] Simone Collins: Okay. God.

[00:24:43] Malcolm Collins: What?

[00:24:44] Simone Collins: I’m just, I, this, this woman I’m just... See, I, I’m trying to work this out though, because there is a genre of posts online too that are rage bait. And some, like there’s, there’s someone I like to follow who posts excessive cleaning routines. Like she’ll arrive at a hotel room, and she will clean the whole fricking thing.

[00:25:05] Like put on new sheets on the bed, clean the toilet, clean the sink, clean the shower that kind of thing. And that, that’s rage bait. They, they do that because that’s rage bait. There’s a mother who has like 10 or 11 kids and she will just f- stock their little mini fridges full of in- insane junk food, and that’s rage bait because parents are like, “Oh, that has fructose in it.”

[00:25:23] You know, like I, I, I feel like 90% of her success is not due to any legitimate action. It’s her understanding that she’s getting rage-based engagement, but that still produces a profit for her.

[00:25:37] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. No, there was a a, a, a, a, a realization I had this is on, on one of the shows was Leaflet, where I had never contextualized it this way before but somebody was like, “Do you...”

[00:25:50] This came from the question of do you have a crush on Leaflet? And I had never thought, because you know, if, if, if you’re thinking about somebody who you actually feel a degree of emotional closeness to I had never had it injected into my head the idea of cheating with someone I feel emotionally close to.

[00:26:10] And then it immediately occurred to me, I was like, “But if I, if I attempted to do something like that with her, it would hurt her.” Right. Somebody who I presumably like.

[00:26:22] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:26:22] Malcolm Collins: Why would

[00:26:23] Simone Collins: I do- So why would you do that to her? Yeah.

[00:26:25] Malcolm Collins: Why would I do that to her?

[00:26:27] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:28] Malcolm Collins: And I had never had this moment of realization before because I had never considered cheating in this context before.

[00:26:34] Mm-hmm. Like actually, oh, it’s somebody who is otherwise living, you know, a good c- conservative Christian life.

[00:26:41] Simone Collins: Monogamous marriage, et cetera. Yeah.

[00:26:43] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, who’s searching for monogamy, who’s searching for marriage- Yeah ... and who I genuinely, deeply like as a person. Mm-hmm. Somebody’s like, “Have you thought about sleeping with him?”

[00:26:55] And in my head I was immediately like, what a shitty thing that would be to do to them, not to my wife, right? Like, obviously it’s bad for my wife, but, like, it would be a complete inversion of any feeling of emotional fondness I would have towards a person, because it would be using my emotional fondness to justify hurting tha- that individual.

[00:27:24] And I had never realized until I had that truly how perverse cheating is-

[00:27:30] Simone Collins: Mm ...

[00:27:31] Malcolm Collins: when you’re in a, a healthy society.

[00:27:34] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:35] Malcolm Collins: Right? That hadn’t hit me before, right? Like, it’s... obviously, and this, I guess, comes to the second thing, which is, like, you can do cheating as, like, a conquest with, like, people you don’t know, which, like, may be a lower form of cheating even, because, like, at least the people you’re hurting, you don’t actually care about what happens to them.

[00:27:55] But this thing where people who [00:28:00] presumably have an emotional closeness with each other-

[00:28:02] Simone Collins: Well, that’s what she keeps talking about. She acts like this isn’t about the fun of hurting women. She acts like it’s actually out of care or interest in the men, so.

[00:28:12] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but she’s not talking about the guy. She’s talking about the stuff he’s buying her.

[00:28:16] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, ‘cause I, I think she’s gaslighting herself. A- and if not herself, then her, her clients, so. Hmm. Mm.

[00:28:25] Malcolm Collins: No, I think what it is is that when she goes out there and she starts waxing all pol- ly- waxing lyrically about, “Well, I should be able to do whatever I want to do, and here’s all the things I want to do.”

[00:28:38] You know? That, That she’s getting excited about, oh, what’s, what’s the way I wanna put this? A- about talking to the urban monoculture in urban monoculture language to frame what she’s doing is-

[00:28:50] Simone Collins: Oh, that it’s, and it’s about love. And that’s, you know what? That’s the thing. We need to go back to transactional marriages, and it’s not like they were that old.

[00:28:59] Remember the, the movie with Marilyn Monroe and some other star- stars of old Hollywood How to Marry a Millionaire, where they’re just like, “Look, my job here, I need to, like, find a wealthy man. That’s my job here.”

[00:29:10] Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I mean, I think that, that it reminds me, because you see progressives do this all the time.

[00:29:15] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:15] Malcolm Collins: And it’s a very fun form of, like, code switching. And I, I even say something that we used to do. Mm-hmm. Where, like, the trans community talking within the trans community, it’s, “This is hot, this turns me on. Like, of course, feelings of body euphoria are erotic in nature. You know, you know, I, I, I looked at myself in the mirror and jacked off today.”

[00:29:39] Like, this sort of stuff you see all the time in the trans community. If you, if you go to, like, the trans subreddits and stuff like this, right? Like, it’s nor- it’s normal. And then you, you then see trans people talking to the media, you know, the, and they’re like, “I’m just born this way, you know?” Oh. “I was just, you know-” Okay

[00:29:53] how can you really say that I shouldn’t be allowed to be who I am?” Mm-hmm. “And how dare you call who I am a fetish?” It’s like-

[00:30:01] Simone Collins: Ah ...

[00:30:02] Malcolm Collins: this flip And you can see I do it when I talk with reporters, right? Where, you know, on our show- Oh

[00:30:08] Simone Collins: yeah, like with our community you’re all super reasonable, and then with reporters you’re like, “Let them all die.”

[00:30:14] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no. I actually go in the op- I mean, in our show I, this is especially in the early days when I was talking to reporters, I’d be quite edgy about the stuff I’d say. I’d be like, like, “Come on people, like we’ve gotta talk about group differences. We’ve gotta talk about like...” And then I talk to reporters and I’m like, “You know, they’re the real racists,” right?

[00:30:31] Like, how dare they say-

[00:30:33] Simone Collins: Oh,

[00:30:33] Malcolm Collins: I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah ... that corporal punishment makes you a monster. Don’t they know the Black community uses corporal punishments at much higher rates than the white community, and the majority of Black families use it? Are they racist? Or like, don’t they know that Latin America’s fertility rates are falling faster than the United States, and are now strictly below the United States?

[00:30:56] Don’t they care about the plight of the Latin American? The poor little Mexican, he has been forgotten. Don’t they care that in Iraq and in Iran they have a lower fertility rate than the United States? We have to save that people. You know, the, the, the or when I’m talking about Israel, you know, I’ll talk about it, I’m like, Israel is just a group that had their land colonized, taking it back from the colonizers who shipped them off their land and made it unsafe to live there.

[00:31:33] This is the first time any group has been able to retake their land, and now you wanna get rid of them? How can you say this about the Seminoles but not the Jews? Yeah. The Jews had an actual Holocaust, right? Like, don’t you care? Don’t you understand why they had to go there to feel safe? Meanwhile on our podcast I’m like, I really love that there’s this group that’s like super high fertility and has a lot of [00:32:00] weapons, and is not afraid to kill people who piss them off, right?

[00:32:03] Like, that is awesome. I don’t f*****g care. I don’t care that their ancestors had the land. I don’t care that the Bible says they should have the land. I don’t care, none of that sh- what I care about is they are a good potential ally in the future when sh- hits the fan in terms of whatever happens next civilizational speaking, right?

[00:32:23] Like, but I, I use a completely different, you know, talking point when I’m talking with like the urban monoculture, or I’m framing it for the urban monoculture because, And if people are like, “Oh, that’s so horrible. You just like the Jews ‘cause they’re a potential ally,” yeah, an ally in my goal, which is future human flourishing.

[00:32:42] And future human flourishing requires people that we can work with against the barbarian forces that have achieved high fertility rates through restricting access to education, through treating women like cattle, through you know, a, an, a, a, a incredibly xenophobic views towards outsiders. If people are gonna be like, “Well, some Jews have those.”

[00:33:04] It’s like, yeah, some Jews do have those, but there are much, much larger groups, right? And, and it’s typically not the Jews with the technology that have those views that would turn against us where Jews can be a useful partner because many of these groups also wanna kill Jews, which makes them natural allies, right?

[00:33:21] That, that is, like, my maneuvering, right? Like a future where people aren’t suffering as much and where people have more freedom, and we get to the stars, and we take over the universe, and all that nonsense, manifest destiny, all that. But I don’t, I don’t care that the Jews are taking back colonizer land.

[00:33:36] But I, I say that in the same way these women don’t actually... They don’t seem to love these men at all. That’s a very interesting... I’ve noticed you don’t do it, though. So and you don’t flip to a different mode when you talk to reporters. You use the same arguments here you use when you talk to reporters.

[00:33:52] Simone Collins: Because I answer the prompt You

[00:33:56] Malcolm Collins: don’t frame the prompt for your audience I don’t You’re just like, “This is what’s true.”

[00:34:00] Simone Collins: You have asked me a question. I am going to answer the question. I can’t, I can’t. No.

[00:34:06] Malcolm Collins: Well, I like that about you, Simone. I think our fans like that about you, you know?

[00:34:10] Simone Collins: That’s sad, ‘cause I was just about to say that I think code switching gets a bad reputation.

[00:34:15] It’s not a bad thing. It’s not a bad thing when people feel obligated to do it, because it is useful, and you should have the capability, which apparently I utterly lack, to be able to speak to people in terms that they can understand if you, if you have that capacity. And it’s good when people code switch it- because then they are able to speak effectively and be better understood.

[00:34:37] So I wish that people viewed it positively and did it more I’m glad you do it.

[00:34:45] Malcolm Collins: Yep. But I, I find this very interesting. And I wish that the guys that had... Could just see that they’re being used for money, right? Like, that’s what these women care about, right? Like, that seems to be the goal. That’s what she kept talking about.

[00:35:01] Simone Collins: Do you think they would care? Because they’re getting-

[00:35:04] Malcolm Collins: What they want, which is-

[00:35:05] Simone Collins: Yeah ... sex. Yeah. And cheating. I mean, it’s... The only victim in this crime, as far as I’m aware, is the you know, the, the wife who’s being cheated on, whose, whose sex toys are being slimed by some derelict woman. Gross. That’s so gross.

[00:35:23] I mean, I know, like, the new, the new company, which I won’t name because we’re never gonna do a sponsorship with them, I don’t know how people can manage to do that, is, like, all their toys are washable, and I guess presumably then you’re always gonna pre-wash because that’s... Who knows? Who knows who’s picked that up and...

[00:35:40] Ugh, I just, mm, mm.

[00:35:41] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you don’t know, because I sleep in a different room than you, so who knows? I mean, people are always perplexed. You film in different rooms?

[00:35:47] Simone Collins: Kids are always rifling through every single drawer, and they do not wash their hands after using the toilet like I tell them to all the freaking time.

[00:35:57] Have you washed your ha- No. Oh, thanks for [00:36:00] reminding me. So what are you gonna get in your body if they s- rifle through a drawer? You should never expose your straws or your drinking vessels or your utensils to children because you will

[00:36:12] Malcolm Collins: get sick. Yeah, who has a sex toy as, like, a married couple just, like, in their room?

[00:36:16] Simone Collins: I think some couples use them, like, together.

[00:36:23] Malcolm Collins: I mean, clearly this woman was using them with the guy, so

[00:36:27] Simone Collins: I don’t know. The way I see it depicted in media there’s the dissatisfactory sex and then the husband falls asleep, and then the wife plays with the toy. That is what happens in the movies. It’s very consistent. This is how I understand, and presumably this is, this is how other women have been trained to contextualize these devices as well, and they just assume that that’s how it’s supposed to work.

[00:36:54] But I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.

[00:36:57] Malcolm Collins: People learning that we have a far more Puritan lifestyle than they imagine, right? Like, you’re like-

[00:37:02] Simone Collins: Well, I still need, I, I, we, we need to make the you know what of your you know what because that’s for posterity. It needs to be preserved. But that is really for a museum For the public record.

[00:37:19] Public

[00:37:19] Malcolm Collins: record.

[00:37:20] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:37:21] Malcolm Collins: Sure.

[00:37:23] Simone Collins: It’s too good to go to waste. This is one of those reasons why, like, monogamy is a sh- a shame. But yeah yeah, this... Like, look, should it come as any surprise from a couple that believes that all non-procreative sex is sinful?

[00:37:38] Malcolm Collins: They were like, “

[00:37:40] Simone Collins: How do they, how do they do that?”

[00:37:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:37:43] Anyway, this g- this lady be crazy. I’m pretty sure 99%

[00:37:47] Malcolm Collins: of

[00:37:47] Simone Collins: it was RageBait,

[00:37:47] Malcolm Collins: though ... the final thing I’d, I’d say on this point-

[00:37:48] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:37:49] Malcolm Collins: which is sort of to elaborate, when people are like, “But Malcolm, why do you say you should invest in, like, projects and things that have meaning instead of, like, being as hot as possible?”

[00:37:58] And being

[00:37:58] Simone Collins: ripped.

[00:37:59] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and it’s like, girls are not guys. When you look at a girl, what you see is her body. Okay?

[00:38:09] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:09] Malcolm Collins: When a woman looks at you, what she sees is- What Jack

[00:38:13] Simone Collins: Donaghy sees in 30 Rock.

[00:38:15] Malcolm Collins: No, not money. What she sees fundamentally is the life that she’s going to be setting up inside.

[00:38:20] Simone Collins: Mm. Ah. Oh, that’s a good point, yeah.

[00:38:23] What life do I have with you?

[00:38:25] Malcolm Collins: The brick

[00:38:26] Simone Collins: and mortar y- Is it luxurious? Am I famous? Am I pampered? Yeah.

[00:38:30] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, when they say y- you’re not a woman, you can’t just drop your life and set yourself up in somebody else’s,

[00:38:36] Speaker 4: , it’s not like he’s a hot girl. He can’t just bail on his life and set up shop in someone else’s.

[00:38:41] Malcolm Collins: This is really a huge part of what marriage is for women and what long-term relationships are for women.

[00:38:48] It’s what is my lifestyle going to be? Mm. What is my responsibilities going to be? What projects am I gonna be supporting? What, you know... And so for them y- you could think of it almost like a, well, because it’s like a quest for them, right? Like, it’s like, what’s their life quest? You, you determine that.

[00:39:07] Who they marry determines that for them often. Mm. And so they’re searching for, like, the coolest life quest, and by making yourself as a life quest cooler or more meaningful or more impactful, you will secure better women of the type you wanna be dating, and you want to be dating this type of woman, the woman who’s like, “Yeah, I’m setting my life up inside of their life.

[00:39:31] I’m not doing it because...” A woman who marries you because you’re hot, what, what’s gonna happen when she sees a guy who’s hotter than you? Right?

[00:39:41] Simone Collins: Yeah. True.

[00:39:43] Malcolm Collins: What, what’s gonna happen? But the woman who sets up, because your life is like a joint project, somebody walks along with another nascent joint project, and she’s gonna be like, “Well, you know, that would be kind of stupid,” right?

[00:39:55] “Like, I’ve invested so much time in this one,” right?

[00:39:57] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:57] Malcolm Collins: She loses the project by losing [00:40:00] the, leav- leaving the relationship.

[00:40:03] Simone Collins: Absolutely

[00:40:04] Malcolm Collins: I mean, I, I love those suckas like, “Wow, you know, I’m really rich already, so I can’t really build anything with them.” And it’s like, well, you can set up like a foundation to work on with them or something, you know?

[00:40:13] Yeah. That’s what rich guys do. They set up found- like foundations.

[00:40:17] Simone Collins: Oh gosh, you’re right. Yeah, they, they actually do

[00:40:22] Malcolm Collins: For women to waste

[00:40:23] Simone Collins: away their days- No, that’s such a thing ... on stupid things. No, that like, that’s a, that’s, that’s a thing for hundreds of years. Oh. Oh gosh. Okay. Yeah. And yet they still fall for it.

[00:40:34] They take it really seriously. I think especially now because women think they still need to have a job and be super impressive and have a career because in qui- in perfect fairness, people will not take them seriously if they’re not doing very important serious work. Mm-hmm. And so in order to maintain- Foundation work

[00:40:55] Well, they don’t frame it. These days they know how to hide it better. They’re like, “I am a, you know, like activist in this realm,” or whatever, you know? That’s sad. Oh, well.

[00:41:08] Malcolm Collins: At least it’s not us, okay? Yeah. And how would you tell men, you know, as a woman who has presumably thought about cheating to protect themselves from women like yourself?

[00:41:20] Simone Collins: From me?

[00:41:21] Malcolm Collins: I, I’m joking, but like w- how would you advise men to protect themselves from this?

[00:41:26] Simone Collins: From exploitative women?

[00:41:28] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[00:41:30] Simone Collins: Hmm. Right, because there’s this whole, a, a lot of men have, have started taking this very seriously. Because actually w- there is this, this increasing percentage of women who are triding- trying to treat dating like a, a new career hunt, because they understand that it’s incredibly hard to get a job right now.

[00:41:48] So their new plan is to hitch their wagon to a husband who’s a cash cow, and her career will be married to him. And a lot of men don’t want that kind of freeloader wife. They, they don’t want that at all. And so on their first date they will ask the woman to pay, or they will instead ob- obfuscate their careers on their dating profiles.

[00:42:08] Are you aware of this, Malcolm? Where they’ll be like, “I’m a carpenter.” Like, some of the examples that got exposed are super lame, ‘cause like, no you’re not. No one believes that you’re a carpen- actually, I would have totally believed that someone was a carpenter. Never

[00:42:20] Malcolm Collins: mind. You are a very credulous- And you’re the type of woman they, they want, Simone.

[00:42:24] Simone Collins: You know. I know. What

[00:42:24] Malcolm Collins: they

[00:42:25] Simone Collins: want is this dumb- I would have been like, “That’s so cool” ... sweet woman. “Tell me all about your woodworking.” No, seriously, yeah, it’s so true. And I was very insensitive to people’s careers when I, when I dated. I, I was just like, “Are you interesting?” I

[00:42:38] Malcolm Collins: was hyper-sensitive.

[00:42:39] Simone Collins: I know. You were hyper-sensitive.

[00:42:41] I was like, “You’re a felon? Let’s go. You’re a cook? Let’s go. You’re a programmer? All right.” Like, I really didn’t care. I just wanted interesting people that were hot. Like-

[00:42:50] Malcolm Collins: But this is exactly it. When you were looking for a guy, the criteria that Simone used most is- Is interesting ... are they interesting?

[00:42:59] Because-

[00:42:59] Simone Collins: That is so true. I dated guys shorter than me. I went on dates with guys of different races than me, so it wasn’t about, like, matched cultural, ethnic, national background. It wasn’t about matched morality, even. It, and, and these weren’t, like... Actually, some of the guys, I w- I joked that they were all hot.

[00:43:14] Like, some of the guys, I would rate them as like Fives or sixes

[00:43:20] Malcolm Collins: So the reason why this is important is you- Urban monoculture, hipster Simone ...

[00:43:28] Simone Collins: hmm

[00:43:28] Malcolm Collins: When you were thinking about the metric that you wanted to increase most about your life, if you were gonna set yourself up in somebo- man’s life-

[00:43:37] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm ...

[00:43:37] Malcolm Collins: was to make your own life more interesting.

[00:43:40] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:43:40] Malcolm Collins: So that is why you used interestingness as your metric for is this guy good enough.

[00:43:47] Simone Collins: For sure. Yeah, yeah, especially like to, like in terms of getting in the door, that’s all you had to be as a guy for me when

[00:43:54] Malcolm Collins: I was dating. And I looked for trainability. And guys today don’t look for that enough.

[00:43:58] Simone Collins: I know.

[00:43:59] They’re just [00:44:00] looking for Instagram models. Like th- wh- per the criteria that men that we’ve met have these days, they’re only going to end up dating OnlyFans models.

[00:44:09] Malcolm Collins: Oh, of course.

[00:44:10] Simone Collins: That’s it. And it’s- Well, I mean, now, now- They don’t realize, they’re like, “Well, I expect a, I want a traditional woman.” The, the

[00:44:15] Malcolm Collins: queen of the new right, Asmongold’s new girlfriend, you know, really, They all are.

[00:44:19] They all are ... setting the trend there. Look,

[00:44:21] Simone Collins: they, I don’t know. Like, and I don’t have a problem with that. That’s also fine, but it’s, it’s kind of ironic to me because these men also typically are... I guess though, you know, in the end I think a lot of women who are on OF would prefer to be kind of just OF-ing for one guy in a monogamous relationship if he provided the lifestyle she wanted, so.

[00:44:39] Yeah, I

[00:44:40] Malcolm Collins: just realized if you are a right-wing female intellectual content creator- Hmm ... that’s a huge pathway of revenue you don’t have access to that all the leftists have access to.

[00:44:51] Simone Collins: Oh, like the Coodermauger?

[00:44:53] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the Coodermauger is trying to clean up, pretending to be right wing and like getting, Mm-hmm

[00:44:57] for people who haven’t seen this, it’s this woman who sits in very sexualized poses and says generic right-wing things.

[00:45:03] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:45:04] Malcolm Collins: Like, “We should deport illegal immigrants.” Dillon

[00:45:05] Simone Collins: Omar’s horrible. Like, yeah, deport it’s so funny.

[00:45:08] It’s so funny ...

[00:45:08] Malcolm Collins: and she doesn’t actually have a podcast. She sets up as if she has a podcast.

[00:45:12] Speaker 5: Say that men can never be women, and if we can’t say that, then we can’t live in a free society. Can we please stop addressing Ilhan Omar as a congresswoman? I mean, she’s literally a fraud. Is it true that your school, uh, your school’s libraries offer Islamic literature like the Quran and, and other things?

[00:45:29] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, she

[00:45:29] Simone Collins: clip farms. It looks like she like clip farmed pieces of some podcast she has, but it’s just like she’s filming her, her sound bites. And I think this is a really in- interesting and fascinating economy that once I get enough fodder on, maybe I’ll do an episode on it, of young women who are posting content that seems to, that’s designed for algorithmic traction.

[00:45:50] Like the one who’s doing all the, who’s hiking the Pacific Northwest Trail in these cute little pink outfits, and she puts on her makeup every morning and her blush, and then she talks in her little girl-like voice and does her hair, and then walks 15 miles and eats an apricot ‘cause I was hungry.

[00:46:05] And all these young ladies are watching these clips, and I imagine maybe some young ladies are watching like the Coodermauger’s like political commentary, not realizing that sitting in yoga pants like that is a little suggestive. And maybe they’re being culturally shaped by this person. You are

[00:46:22] Malcolm Collins: the only woman i- incredulous enough to, to not notice that

[00:46:29] Simone Collins: I’ve seen normal women sit like that, it just didn’t like-

[00:46:34] Malcolm Collins: You see what I mean, audience?

[00:46:35] You see what I mean?

[00:46:36] Simone Collins: Okay, whatever. Anyway I feel like they’re shaping... I know that the hiking one, who also has an OF, is shaping, like, young lady culture, influencing a lot of young women to, like, go out and hike, which is, I think solo hiking as a young woman is, is criminally dangerous. But you and I have lift, listened to so many stories of people, like, disappearing and dying- Yeah

[00:46:55] while in the, the-

[00:46:56] Malcolm Collins: You know, obviously as, as Mr. Ballen fans and Lore Lodge fans, we have a- Yeah,

[00:46:59] Simone Collins: if you listen to Mr. Ballen, you ain’t never going hiking, like, ever. Just, it’s, it’s a bad idea. But also you won’t live in your own house because there’s probably someone living in between the walls waiting to, waiting to kill you.

[00:47:11] It’s not-

[00:47:12] Malcolm Collins: By the way Lore, for the fans-

[00:47:14] Simone Collins: Oh,

[00:47:14] Malcolm Collins: God ... lore Lodge and us live in the same small town in Pennsylvania. I

[00:47:19] Simone Collins: know. Lore Lodge, can we, like, take you out to tie me up or something? Yeah. That would be so fun.

[00:47:25] Malcolm Collins: That’s a, that’s not a BDSM place, that’s a Thai restaurant, by the way. It’s a

[00:47:28] Simone Collins: Thai restaurant.

[00:47:29] Yeah. It’s, it’s it’s delicious. It’s fantastic. Come on.

[00:47:32] Malcolm Collins: I, I, yeah, Lore’s- It’s our treat ... a cool people are like, and, and his team, ‘cause he’s got a whole team in an office in Pennsylvania Yeah,

[00:47:36] Simone Collins: we will take your whole team out, dude. Like, let’s, it’d be fun. We, we like your, we like your stuff.

[00:47:40] Malcolm Collins: Big fans of the channel, yeah.

[00:47:41] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:47:43] Malcolm Collins: It’s so weird to know that there’s a famous YouTuber who lives... No one ever needs to know that we met in person. I know our politics are toxic for your brand of neutrality.

[00:47:52] Simone Collins: Yeah. Look, we have a lot of friends, off the record friends,

[00:47:55] Malcolm Collins: who- We have a lot of off the record friends. Come on ... we

[00:47:57] Simone Collins: keep secret.

[00:47:58] Yeah, don’t worry. We can keep a [00:48:00] secret. Yeah.

[00:48:00] Malcolm Collins: Well, and also given that he hasn’t talked about his politics, I’d be surprised if they weren’t right wing. Usually- I

[00:48:08] Simone Collins: don’t know, because the, that area is, is left-leaning. I know this because- No,

[00:48:12] Malcolm Collins: the area is left-leaning- ... a part of it is in, in the district I- ... but usually they can’t help but sneak in left-leaning lines into their stuff-

[00:48:20] Simone Collins: Oh, that’s

[00:48:20] Malcolm Collins: true

[00:48:20] if they are left-leaning.

[00:48:21] Simone Collins: That is

[00:48:22] Malcolm Collins: true. Like, even fairly like if you watch all of their content, you, you see it. Like, a good example of this is Zero Punctuation. You know the offensive video game guy who does, like, video game critiques? Oh,

[00:48:31] Simone Collins: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:48:32] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, like, he’s gone off about how bad Trump is before in jokes and stuff like that.

[00:48:36] Oh. And you would think that he wouldn’t. There’s no reason for him to nerf his viewership. Yeah. And, like, on

[00:48:39] Simone Collins: all my favorite podcasts that are, you know, they’re, they’re like, they’re girly podcasts about American folklore and historical garments. But they, they can’t help but talk about bad man, bad orange man, bad

[00:48:51] Malcolm Collins: man.

[00:48:51] Yeah. So if they explicitly never mention it-

[00:48:54] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:48:55] Malcolm Collins: my thought is they’re generally- They’re,

[00:48:56] Simone Collins: okay, they gotta be closeted conservatives ... generally closeted Okay.

[00:48:59] Malcolm Collins: Ooh, you

[00:48:59] Simone Collins: never know. Yeah.

[00:49:00] Malcolm Collins: They- Yeah, yeah ... but maybe not for Townsend. I don’t know if he has poli- political opinions.

[00:49:05] Simone Collins: I love him so much. He’s, he’s, he’s the real internet daddy.

[00:49:09] Everyone... Like, Jordan Peterson was the fake internet daddy. Townsend is the real internet daddy.

[00:49:15] Malcolm Collins: All right. Well, I love you still. You know?

[00:49:16] Simone Collins: I love you too, Malcolm.

[00:49:19] Malcolm Collins: Don’t, don’t go out there Cooter MOGging someone to, to get them to-

[00:49:22] Simone Collins: I s- you know how much I’m, like- They are the snarlac pit to me. No, I would rather look at the snarlac pit eat pe- eat people alive than look at a cooter.

[00:49:32] I swear to you. So I will never expose that part of my body ever, ever. Like, I want... Every time I have to do some kind of gynecological thing, I’m like, “I’m sorry. I’m sor-,” like, get it do- It’s, like, deeply uncomfortable.

[00:49:50] Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you to death, Simone.

[00:49:52] Simone Collins: Bye.

[00:49:53] Malcolm Collins: Bye. Search. I had it right here. Okay, here we go

[00:49:58] Simone Collins: have... I need to sanity test y- this with you, but I have a new potential online red flag that can help, one, identify people who are going to throw you under the bus or screw you over in some way, or just not be nice to you. Mm-hmm. And that is if they have disappearing messages with you.

[00:50:16] That is my theory. Ooh. If someone has set disappearing messages, they will betray you. And I say this because, this, I swear this is not a humble brag, but you and I both know that we have had and have chats, like DMs, with a very small, but, but small handful of famous people. Some-

[00:50:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...

[00:50:39] Simone Collins: like, insane levels of, of fame, right?

[00:50:43] Do they have disappearing messages?

[00:50:45] Malcolm Collins: No.

[00:50:46] Simone Collins: No. They probably should, but they don’t. They probably

[00:50:49] Malcolm Collins: should, but they don’t.

[00:50:49] Simone Collins: Like, they get the free pass. The only people I know who I have ever encountered who have disappearing messages have completely, like, thrown us under the bus or thrown me under the bus, screwed us over, et cetera.

[00:51:02] Like, the only... And th- th- like it’s a, it’s a 100% thing, and that is to say, I, I, I don’t really know many people who have disappearing messages. But yeah, that’s that’s my new theory. What do you think about it? I mean, look at it this way, though. Like, if you set disappearing messages with someone, you don’t trust them.

[00:51:19] You think they’re gonna screenshot you or, like, reveal things, or you wanna say things to that person that, I don’t know, y- you personally don’t feel proud of. I don’t know, but it is kind of questionable if you set disappearing messages, unless, like, you as two friends are aware that you are... Like, you both mutually agree to it.

[00:51:39] Like, “Hey, let’s set disappearing messages.”

[00:51:42] Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

[00:51:42] Simone Collins: I, I find

[00:51:42] Malcolm Collins: it- But if

[00:51:43] Simone Collins: someone just sets them

[00:51:43] Malcolm Collins: on you- Well, I also... The people I know who set them are typically a******s.

[00:51:47] Simone Collins: Yes.

[00:51:47] Malcolm Collins: Like, just from the, before they betray you or anything like that. Yes. They’re typically just people you have to deal with.

[00:51:53] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yes. Yes.

[00:51:56] Yes. And I, I, I came into this so innocent. I [00:52:00] was like, “Oh, I guess this is some new social convention.” But then I discovered, no, this isn’t a social convention. This isn’t a feature that most people use. And then everyone who has chosen to consistently use this feature ever since it came out- Throw me under the bus.

[00:52:16] Screw me over. Anyway, I just noticed that. I- I just like thought of that today and I was like- Yeah ... oh my God.

[00:52:22] Malcolm Collins: No, it’s a, it’s a good pattern recognition from what I’ve seen. People can shout out in the comments. Yeah, red flag. I think there’s a person who’s gonna feel the need to write in to justify themselves.

[00:52:31] Yeah.

[00:52:31] Simone Collins: But it, this is my like Liz Lemon, “It’s a deal breaker.” Disappearing messages, that’s a deal breaker, ladies. So- All right ... I’m ready.

[00:52:39] Malcolm Collins: So I’ll get started here.

[00:52:41] Speaker 8: So you have a military base and Titan. What is this? Cathedral A giant beauty. What kind of beauty is it? What does it do?

[00:52:56] Yeah? A castle. A castle? It’s a T-Rex. It’s a T-Rex, Indy? Where? Yeah. It’s right there. Yeah? It’s on all the books. Toasty, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. High five, buddy. Look. Oh, okay.

In this episode of Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone Collins dig into a recent study on political meta-dehumanization and the striking asymmetry in how liberals and conservatives mentally represent (and dehumanize) each other.

Drawing on research published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin (“Political Meta-Dehumanization in Mental Representations”), posts from Cremieux and Arctotherium, and the composite face images the study produced, they unpack why liberals tend to see conservatives as savage, aggressive, and barely human, while conservatives tend to see liberals as immature, irrational, and naive. They also examine how each side misjudges the intensity of the other’s hostility—and what that means for political strategy.

The conversation covers:

* Why the right’s greater empathy and openness has been a long-term cultural advantage (and how it has converted figures from JK Rowling to Elon Musk to RFK Jr.)

* The dangers of treating the other side as merely misguided when they view you as an existential threat

* Why kindness and inclusivity remain powerful conversion tools—while still refusing to hand over institutional or administrative power

* Related findings on empathy asymmetries, institutional capture, and the limits of democratic norms when one side stops playing fair

* Practical implications for coalitions, tech/AI companies, and long-term power

A candid, research-grounded discussion on dehumanization, strategy, and how the right should (and shouldn’t) respond.

Show Notes

Cremieux: There’s an asymmetry in how liberals and conservatives evaluate one another.

Liberals dehumanize conservatives more than conservatives suspect. Conservatives dehumanize liberals less than liberals suspect.

Arctotherium: In the US, liberals think conservatives hate them much more than conservatives actually do, while conservatives don’t realize liberals hate them as much as liberals actually do. The hatred asymmetry is one reason liberals tend to win over time.

The research: Political (Meta-)Dehumanization in Mental Representations: Divergent Emphases in the Minds of Liberals Versus Conservatives

Published July 7th in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin

The Gist:

The researchers found that liberals and conservatives dehumanize each other in different ways, and that each side has a surprisingly accurate sense of the type of dehumanization they receive, even while misjudging its overall intensity.

The Experiment

* They had participants choose faces that “look like a liberal” or “look like a conservative” hundreds of times; these are averaged into composite faces that approximate mental representations.

* Then, a new group of people—who didn’t know where the images came from—rated each composite face on:

* “Savage/aggressive, lacking morals, barbaric/cold‑hearted” (savagery)

* “Immature/irresponsible, irrational/illogical, naïve/gullible” (immaturity)

* Plus general warmth and “evolved‑ness.”

* Study 2 asks: “How do you think the other side sees your side?”

* Again using liberals and conservatives, they changed the prompt in the 300‑trial face task.

* Conservatives were asked: “Who would a liberal think looks more like a conservative?”

* Liberals were asked: “Who would a conservative think looks more like a liberal?”

* From these choices they built two meta‑representation composites:

* Conservatives’ guess about how liberals picture conservatives

* Liberals’ guess about how conservatives picture liberals

* In Phase 2, a new group of raters evaluated these meta‑representation images side‑by‑side with the real outgroup images from Study 1 (the actual way the other side pictured you).

* They used the same savagery and immaturity rating scales, plus warmth and “evolved‑ness.”

Core Findings

* Asymmetric dehumanization:

* When conservatives think about liberals, their mental images emphasize liberals as immature, irrational, naïve, and irresponsible more than as savage or evil.

* When liberals think about conservatives, their mental images emphasize conservatives as savage, aggressive, morally lacking, and cold‑hearted more than as immature or silly.

* Outgroup over ingroup dehumanization

* Reverse‑correlation composites of ingroup faces are rated as less dehumanizing than “outgroup” faces for both liberals and conservatives, even after controlling for general warmth/liking.

* Inaccurate assumptions around intensity of hate

* When people imagine how the other side sees them (meta‑representations), those images show the same relative pattern—conservatives expect to be seen as savage more than immature, liberals expect to be seen as immature more than savage. But liberals overestimate how dehumanized they are by conservatives, while conservatives underestimate how dehumanized they are by liberals.

Discussion of the Findings on Social Media

* @ReaptheWhirlSL wrote: “Conservatives believe liberals are just misguided but well meaning people. Liberals believes conservatives are either retarded scum or evil demons both of who need to be cleansed from the world to usher in utopia. This is why things are the way they are now.”

* To which @JamesQBentley responded: “Yep...I’ve made this point to people on the Left, and instead of it leading to any self-reflection on their part, they usually just double down and say that, yeah - conservatives just *are* evil...So, alas, these studies don’t move the needle”

* Scott Wellman posted a cartoon by @Governmentisthenewreligion

Why This Matters

Prior research shows that expecting to be dehumanized (aka meta‑dehumanization) predicts reciprocal dehumanization and support for norm‑breaking, anti‑democratic behaviors (e.g., gerrymandering that advantages one’s own party even if illegal). If meta‑perceptions are systematically exaggerated or distorted, they can fuel cycles of escalation and institutional erosion even when actual attitudes are less extreme.

Also:

* Content of contempt differs by side.

* The stereotypical quip “conservatives think liberals are stupid, liberals think conservatives are evil” maps closely onto their findings: conservatives’ dehumanization is maturity‑focused, liberals’ is savagery‑focused.

* This implies different psychological and behavioral consequences—for instance, seeing someone as immature might elicit paternalism or dismissal, whereas seeing someone as savage might elicit fear, moral outrage, or punitive impulses.

* Interventions must be tailored.

* Because types of dehumanization have distinct downstream effects (e.g., animalistic vs mechanistic dehumanization relate to different forms of mistreatment), knowing that liberals emphasize “savagery” and conservatives “immaturity” suggests that effective depolarization strategies may need to be side‑specific:

* For liberals, interventions might highlight conservatives’ warmth, compassion, or moral concern to counter savagery narratives.

* For conservatives, interventions might highlight liberals’ responsibility, organization, and seriousness to counter immaturity narratives.

* Meta‑dehumanization is calibrated in structure but biased in scale.

* People seem to have reasonably accurate mental models of the *form* of dehumanization they face (whether they’re seen as evil vs childish), but not the magnitude.

* Liberals in this data expect more dehumanization than they actually receive; conservatives expect less.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Even in the images you can see the degree of dehumanization that, that liberals have- Yeah

[00:00:04] of conservatives.

[00:00:04] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, honestly, the liberal- No- ... composite face of a conservative barely looks human.

[00:00:10] Malcolm Collins: What I want to point out here is- Yeah the interesting question that comes downstream of this-

[00:00:15] Is it tactically a mistake of conservatives to be so forgiving and generous in our perspectives on progressives?

[00:00:26] Would you like to know more?

[00:00:28] Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I am very excited to be speaking with you today because I saw something on X today that makes me think I should rethink my whole assuming the best of other people thing and politics in general, and I need to... I need a smart man to help me process this. So can we go over it?

[00:00:48] Malcolm Collins: No. I’m done.

[00:00:50] Simone Collins: Okay, bye.

[00:00:51] Malcolm Collins: I am done supporting your dumb womanly mind. Well- ... not intuitively... No, actually you showed me this morning, and it was shocking. It was shocking.

[00:00:58] Simone Collins: Yeah, okay. Let’s go over it. What I showed

[00:01:00] Malcolm Collins: Malcolm- And it does make me re-rethink some things, too.

[00:01:02] Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah, we’re gonna go...

[00:01:03] The, the research is actually really fun. But I’ve... What I showed Malcolm and what I had seen was Cremieux posting on X, “There’s an asymmetry in how liberals and conservatives evaluate one another. Liberals dehumanize conservatives more than conservatives suspect. Conservatives dehumanize liberals less than liberals suspect.”

[00:01:22] And he was responding to Arctotherium, someone we’ve covered, whose work we’ve covered multiple times on the podcast, who had written, “In the US, liberals think conservatives hate them much more than conservatives actually do, while conservatives don’t realize liberals hate them as much as liberals actually do.

[00:01:39] The hatred asymmetry is one reason liberals tend to win over time.” Which confused some people on X, but it makes a lot of sense to me because basically if you think that your enemy is super evil and they absolutely hate you, you’re going to do anything you can to suppress and stop them.

[00:01:57] Whereas if you think your enemy’s an ass sometimes, but they generally mean well, you’re n- you’re maybe not gonna fight tooth and nail to stop them.

[00:02:06] Malcolm Collins: And it’s once you have power, you’re not going to rig the system for yourself in the future, right? Like-

[00:02:11] Simone Collins: Yeah. But I, you could see the, which of those groups is more likely to rig elections?

[00:02:16] Which of these groups is more likely to try to disempower or censor or jail the other group, right? This is a meaningful and it has pretty significant knock-on effects. Both Cremieux and Arctotherium were referring to recently published research as of July 7th, and we’re rec- we’re recording this at the end of July.

[00:02:33] So pretty recent. Published in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin titled Political Meta-Dehumanization in Mental Representations: Divergent Emphases in the Minds of Liberals Versus Conservatives. And what the researchers found, in sum, is that liberals and conservatives dehumanize each other in different ways, and that each side has a surprisingly accurate sense of the type of dehumanization they receive, even while misjudging the overall intensity.

[00:03:05] So as much as on X people really showing this asymmetry and intensity, it’s actually interesting to go into the research and see the different ways that liberals and conservatives are dehumanized and that they understand this to be the case, which is fun. So here’s how the experiment they did worked, and it involves funny photos that I’m going to share with you ‘cause they, they make me laugh.

[00:03:26] So they had participants choose faces that look like a liberal or look like a conservative, so they’re really going with people’s internal stereotypes, and they did this hundreds of times. And then they created these they averaged these images into composite faces that approximate that approximate their mental representations.

[00:03:47] So what I’m about to show you, Malcolm, is the mind’s eye view of a conservative’s view of conservatives versus liberals, and a liberal’s view of liberals versus conservatives. [00:04:00] And you’ll see that the way conservatives view things... I’m, don’t worry, listeners, I will describe this to you. Conservatives see themselves as a pretty reasonable guy, kinda happy.

[00:04:09] He looks like a guy who’s,

[00:04:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...

[00:04:11] Simone Collins: watching a sports competition. I’m not very good at this. But yeah, he’s he’s watching a movie. He’s eating some popcorn, he’s happy. He’s okay.

[00:04:19] And the way he views liberals is someone who actually looks pretty similar, but just looks like someone ate his last, he just went to the freezer and he pulled out the ice cream he loves so much and he finds that it’s empty, okay? That’s what it looks like. That, that face of just “Oh someone ate the last of my Cheetos and I’m sad.” And that’s what a liberal looks like to conservatives. Now, liberals see themselves as a kind of like upbeat, happy-go-lucky someone looks like he’s he’s got his hands in his pockets and he’s walking down the street whistling.

[00:04:51] But ) my God, the way, the

[00:04:54] Malcolm Collins: way

[00:04:54] Simone Collins: they see

[00:04:54] Malcolm Collins: conservatives- The liberal- ...

[00:04:55] Simone Collins: meh. It looks like a troll man. Like a, a frog under- under bridge troll. Is that accurate, Malcolm, am I- Yeah, that’s,

[00:05:02] Malcolm Collins: that’s literally- ... using good words? ... what they think conservatives are, is

[00:05:04] Simone Collins: like- Yeah,

[00:05:05] Malcolm Collins: meh ... under bridge trolls.

[00:05:05] Meh. Meh.

[00:05:06] Simone Collins: Yeah, you can’t hear me, but that’s the sound he would make. So again, we have the guy watching a movie he likes or a, a football terminent- tournament. I’m really bad. And s- and then there’s the guy as seen the liberals as seen by conservatives who’s, last, the last scoop of ice cream was sold of his favorite flavor.

[00:05:23] He’s sad. He’s missing out. It’s a kind of s- missing out kind of sad face. Whereas liberals are like, “Oh doo, I’m a happy person and I’m good,” versus the scary troll man, okay? So we proceed, right?

[00:05:34] Malcolm Collins: Even in the images you can see the degree of dehumanization that, that liberals have- Yeah

[00:05:38] of conservatives.

[00:05:39] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, honestly, the liberal- No- ... composite face of a conservative barely looks human.

[00:05:45] Malcolm Collins: What I want to point out here is- Yeah ... where we’re going with this. And I think the interesting question that comes downstream of this-

[00:05:52] Is it tactically a mistake of conservatives to be so forgiving and generous in our perspectives on progressives?

[00:06:03] And does it lead us to not be ruthless politically where we need to be acting more ruthlessly or with more energy? And-

[00:06:12] Simone Collins: Spoiler alert, I think what is really important, and you can tell me what your take is, but the word condescend used to be used in a positive context. It was basically another word for noblesse oblige.

[00:06:24] You would condescend to someone because they were more poor and stupid. And you would just make sure they were okay, but you also wouldn’t trust them to do anything. You wouldn’t give them, the, the keys to your kingdom or any sort of authority or approval rights over anything because they’re stupid.

[00:06:43] But you still have to be nice to them because they didn’t choose to be stupid. And that’s the way that I think maybe conservatives should be a- approaching liberals, to still have empathy and be friends and everything, but do not give them Mod access to your life, right? Don’t give them admin access.

[00:07:00] That would be very bad given the findings of this research. All right?

[00:07:05] Malcolm Collins: So I’m gonna, I’m gonna th- push back on the way that you handle this. Okay. I actually think that, two things. I think, one in younger conservatives in the new right this naivety is not there in the way it’s in other versions of the right.

[00:07:20] Simone Collins: Fair

[00:07:20] Malcolm Collins: enough. And this is because so many of us used to be progressives and surrounded by the progressive culture.

[00:07:26] Simone Collins: Oh, I thought you were gonna say ‘cause mask goes off on social media. No. People didn’t used to have that perception, now they’re- It’s- ... getting the death threats.

[00:07:32] Malcolm Collins: I wouldn’t understand how extremely negative and bigoted liberals, like urban elites are- to what they conceive of as conservatives. They see them as essentially inhuman. They see them as the deplorables, as, as Hillary called them, right? That is their view of you, your worldview, and everything you’re building. And that’s the way they’ll act. They can only act with vitriol.

[00:07:55] A- and they really lack the ability to empathize. And there was [00:08:00] another study, I don’t know if you’re gonna go into it, we’ve covered it before, that looked at a very similar question which was b- basically the level of generosity with which each side treats the other side. And it found the same thing that progressives are just really ruthless and dehumanizing of conservatives, and conservatives generally try to see the best in progressives. A- and they think they’re just stupid, basically. It, it basically showed, and I think this is something everyone

[00:08:23] Progressives think conservatives are conservatives because conservatives have malice in their hearts and want to hurt them. Whereas conservatives generally believe progressives are progressives simply because they haven’t taken the time to ironically educate themselves on the topics enough and are deluding themselves around specific topics, or that they don’t have access to all the information, or they’re just a little slow.

[00:08:44] Simone Collins: Like- That’s actually ... Th- this, this study looked at that, so let’s go, let’s continue.

[00:08:47] Malcolm Collins: But hold on. Because they didn’t just do this. What I wanted to get to before we get into the study-

[00:08:50] Simone Collins: Okay ...

[00:08:50] Malcolm Collins: is my counter,

[00:08:53] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:08:53] Malcolm Collins: thesis on this.

[00:08:54] Simone Collins: What would you do?

[00:08:54] Malcolm Collins: One of the things that brought us to the right is when we were still very genuinely leftists- in almost all of our beliefs, and the left was attacking us The right was re- remarkably accepting and nice to us.

[00:09:13] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:09:13] Malcolm Collins: In a way that I was shocked by, given how much everyone I had been with had dehumanized these groups.

[00:09:19] And repeatedly, i- in fact I would say this is how the right long-term is winning the culture war and will win the culture war.

[00:09:27] The left had no reason to lose JK Rowling. They had no reason to lose Elon. They had no reason to lose Joe Rogan. They, the, they had no reason to lose JD Vance. They had no reason to lose Ted Cruz. Sorry, not Ted Cru- what is it? Kennedy. They had no reason to lose RFK.

[00:09:42] They had no reason, just like all of the leaders of our movement they had no reason to lose us. Like literally, the point that we disagreed with them on is we should be able to talk openly about statistics around fertility rates and genetics.

[00:09:56] Like that, that for me, like that for me was like the big thing where I was like, “I can’t deal with this anymore. I can’t keep pretending this anymore. This needs to end.” And I got radicalized. But the, what allowed me to become radicalized, and so many people on the right are like this, is the acceptance of I may disagree with you on this, and this point, but come on here, let’s have a conversation, let’s try to figure out what’s actually true- and we can use that to attempt to move civilization in the right direction. And you see this, as we always talk about, like Commie Mommy leaflet no, sorry, not leaflet, She Gone Head. The right broadly likes her online even though, like her politics would seem pretty radically different.

[00:10:34] And it’s simply because she doesn’t dehumanize us, and she doesn’t treat us with derision and hostility, right? And this is a very useful tactic. However, at the same time, we need to remember while we should be as accepting as people from other perspectives who live life in different ways, as we can be, right?

[00:10:56] And it is not cool to signal “Oh, I’m homophobic” as like a cool thing or whatever. I’m a, anti-whatever is a cool thing. Like even if you personally disagree with this, that doesn’t help our wider political faction, and that doesn’t help people. Like people who would’ve said about me, “Oh, I’m gonna signal back when I was, pro-abortion” or something like that.

[00:11:14] People like him are horrible and want to go out and murder babies, and want to which is not a mainstream argument on the right. They’re just like, no they haven’t thought through this, and this. That would’ve pushed me away, right? For me to change all of my other views with access to right-wing information required me feeling comfortable in these communities and part of the wider community, right?

[00:11:34] If you disagree with something, it is critical that you help people feel comfortable, that you help people when they come in. That said, at the same time as all of that I think we need to be going in the complete opposite direction in terms of trusting the other side with power. Trusting them in office, trusting them to do anything.

[00:11:55] You should assume that at every chance that they get, they [00:12:00] want to, largely because they keep loudly signaling 9/11 was awesome. Like the, the largest leftist streamer has repeatedly said this. He had a framed picture of the 9/11 towers, the sun behind him while he streams. You choose what’s behind you.

[00:12:13] You’re like, “This is the thing that I think is the best.” Innocent Americans losing their lives, right? Their level of evil in their intention you c- it could not be higher. Your level of heat in terms of winning the civiliza- like the civilizational battle around AI, that they are attempting to kill Leaflet over giving away something for free to them, right?

[00:12:36] Th- they, we need to be absolutely ruthless in our quest for power and in terms of our long-term vision of how we use that power. If you look at the Kamala interviews after she lost the election, and they’re interviewing her about what would you change differently, she’s I would’ve focused more on how we need to change how voting works, and we need to stuff the justices in the Supreme Court.”

[00:12:57] Speaker: Too big to rig. It means being ruthless. They are ruthless. We need to be ruthless, too. And by that, I do not mean cruel. That is not our nature. By that, I do not mean breaking the law. That is not what we do. But I do mean we must be uncompromising, and we must allow for a real conversation about revisiting certain things.

[00:13:36] For example, and I know this is gonna be controversial coming from me in particular, we need to revisit the Electoral College. We need to revisit the point of expanding the Court to 13 justices, like we have 13 district courts. We need to revisit, if they so want, statehood for Puerto Rico and DC. Yes

[00:14:10] Malcolm Collins: Basically, I would’ve focused more on how I should cheat so that the right can never win again. That’s what appeals to average leftists these days. And she is fundamentally right that is what appeals to average leftists these days. And because of that, we need to understand that we can treat our opponents with empathy and be kind to them while still expecting them to not play fair, and as a result, be willing to be more aggressive in the way we’re playing ourselves.

[00:14:37] But continue.

[00:14:39] Simone Collins: So to bring it back to the study, they created these composite images. Okay, great. Then they had a new group of people, so now a def- separate sample. They don’t know where the images came from. They’re just looking at these random images that I just shared with you in isolation, and they asked these people-

[00:14:56] to rate each composite face on savage/aggressive, lacking morals, barbaric/cold-hearted, so basically savagery, and then immature/irresponsible, irrational/illogical, naive/gulla- gullible, so immaturity. So basically they were rating them on savagery versus immaturity.

[00:15:20] Malcolm Collins: Okay.

[00:15:20] Simone Collins: And now I’m gonna share with you... Oh, and also plus a general warmth and evolvedness.

[00:15:26] So let me share with you how they rated out-group images here. And then we’ll go over the findings after this. For study two, they did the same thing, but basically asking participants to model how the out group would view them. So they’d ask how do con- how do you think conservatives see you?”

[00:15:47] If you’re a liberal, or, “How do you think that that liberals see you?” As a conservative. And so they did that, and then they created new [00:16:00] composite images, and here is, are those images. And you can see they’re somewhat interesting.

[00:16:06] Malcolm Collins: This is the same image? No, it’s

[00:16:07] Simone Collins: not. No.

[00:16:08] So what you’re looking at now is the conservative and liberal participants’ meta representation. That is to say how they think the out the out group, that is to say the conservative- I think you sent me

[00:16:22] Malcolm Collins: something wrong.

[00:16:23] Simone Collins: No. That’s ri- I know it’s confusing. It... That’s why I asked for 10 more minutes, so I was like, “Oh, maybe-”

[00:16:27] Malcolm Collins: No.

[00:16:27] The bottom right image looks exactly the same.

[00:16:29] Simone Collins: That’s because that is exactly the same. So that’s the rep- that’s the original representation of the out group.

[00:16:34] Malcolm Collins: Oh, I understand. So

[00:16:36] Simone Collins: what you’re looking is how- Yes, the

[00:16:36] Malcolm Collins: bottom row is the exact same.

[00:16:38] Simone Collins: Okay. So you’re looking at how conservative participants think liberals see them on the top, which is actually pretty accurate, right?

[00:16:43] They somehow, frog monster appears again. Because- Yeah ... conservatives know how the outside sees them. Weirdly, the liberal participant doesn’t look like that sad man whose last scoop of ice cream had been taken. It looks like a frog woman, actually. Yeah,

[00:17:01] Malcolm Collins: The the conservative representation of progressives is so much kinder than what the progressives think of them.

[00:17:06] It’s shockingly different.

[00:17:07] Simone Collins: Yeah, like liberals think that conservatives see them as deformed frog woman, whereas what they really see is a slightly disappointed man who realizes that his favorite ice cre- ice cream flavor is not available. And then yeah, when you compare still, when you compare the, their original angry frog man view of conservatives with how they think conservatives view them they’re still, they see themselves as more feminine, which is interesting.

[00:17:33] They assume that conservatives just assume all, all progressives to be women, which is interesting. Do you notice that too? How the meta representation, that is to say how liberal participants think that they’re seen by conservatives is basically female. They’re seen as female and kinda ugly. Does that make sense?

[00:17:54] Or just a woman- Yeah ... honestly. Not the prettiest woman, but still definitely it’s the most female appearance, whereas actually I would say m- male conservatives view progressives as just sad men which is really funny. I just find these images so funny. Okay, so anyway, they have these- Which is also

[00:18:09] Malcolm Collins: ironic because conservatives are much happier than progressives on average.

[00:18:13] Simone Collins: Yeah, and actually progressives are sad men. Progressive men are sad men, and progressive women are more like -

[00:18:18] Malcolm Collins: Sad women ...

[00:18:19] Simone Collins: it’s accurate, okay? Very based. I like it. I

[00:18:21] Malcolm Collins: mean, we always joke that like the traditional value system, the, the sins that are laid out in the Bible are like here’s a bunch of rules about how to like not live a terrible life, right?

[00:18:31] Follow these rules and things will... D- don’t stick your dick on the electrical fence is ba- Don’t pee on the electrical fence, right? Yeah, please

[00:18:38] Simone Collins: don’t. Yeah. It’s

[00:18:38] Malcolm Collins: basically. And they’re immediately like I’m gonna, I’m gonna electrical fence max my life. I’m gonna I’m gonna do whatever that is but times 10.”

[00:18:47] And wh- when you build a life off of that, and this sort of out- external projection of having an extreme external locus of control obviously that’s gonna psychologically destroy an individual. Anyone with a psychological background could have seen this coming but whatever. But whatever, that’s where we are. Continue.

[00:19:03] Simone Collins: Anyway, so they, so what we have now is how conservatives and progressives view themselves and how they think outsiders view them. Great. This is good data. And it’s cool what they did with these composite images, plus they’re really funny looking.

[00:19:17] And then they had a new group of raters, again evaluate these meta representations. Again, meta representation is how they think the other group views them. So they had them look at the, the meta representation images side by side with the real out group images, and then they used the same savagery and im- immaturity rating scales, plus warmth and evolvedness.

[00:19:39] So that’s what they did. Let’s find- Warmth

[00:19:42] Malcolm Collins: and evolvedness?

[00:19:43] Simone Collins: Evolvedness, yeah, just like how, yeah, how enlightened is this group, is this person? Yeah.

[00:19:49] Malcolm Collins: Evolvedness.

[00:19:51] Simone Collins: That’s the best way to put it. Look, just let it be, okay? Core findings. They found asymmetric dehumanization, just as [00:20:00] Ardoathanrium and Cremieux-

[00:20:01] reported. Basically, when a conservative thinks about liberals, their mental images emphasize liberals as immature, irrational, naive, and irresponsible more than as savage or evil. Whereas when liberals think about conservatives, their mental images emphasize conservatives as savage, aggressive, morally lacking, and cold-hearted more than immature or silly.

[00:20:24] We are cold-hearted after all. But anyway th- another really key finding is this out-group over in-group dehumanization. Reverse correlation composites of in-group faces are rated as less dehumanizing than out-group faces, both for liberals and conservatives, even after controlling for general warmth.

[00:20:42] And also, there are these inaccurate assumptions around intensity of hate, as we saw really played out well in those images. But when people imagine how the other side sees them in these mental representations, those images show the same relative pattern. Conservatives expect to be seen as savage more than immature, and liberals expect to be seen as immature more than savage.

[00:21:04] But liberals overestimate how dehumanized they are, which is super clear from the image, as you saw. You didn’t even need to see the conclusion.

[00:21:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like how immature they’re thought of as.

[00:21:12] Simone Collins: Where while conservatives underestimate just how dehumanized they are by liberals. And in terms of the discussion of the findings on social media, @reaptheworldsl wrote, “Conservatives believe liberals are just misguided but well-meaning people.

[00:21:27] Liberal believes conservatives are either retarded scum or evil demons, both of who need to be cleansed from the world to usher in utopia. This is why things are the way they are now.” To which @jamesofbentley responded, “Yep, I’ve made this point to people on the left, and instead of it leading to any self-reflection on their part, they usually just double down and say that, ‘Yeah, conservatives are just so evil.’

[00:21:51] So alas, these studies don’t move the needle.” And then Scott Wellman posted this cartoon I’m gonna share with you by @governmentisthenewreligion.

[00:22:00] In which there’s a liberal person with a pussy hat and a punch Nazi sticker saying, “I hate everything you stand for and want you unalived.” And then just everyday Americans being like naive, wearing a little like propeller hat- I just want a good life for

[00:22:15] Malcolm Collins: my kids

[00:22:15] Simone Collins: yeah, just saying, “I just, yeah, I just want a good life for my kids.” They’re like playing with a little rocket with their propeller hat.

[00:22:22] I think- And I really feel like that

[00:22:24] Malcolm Collins: sometimes ... th- this is where people are pulled to the right, right? Like-

[00:22:28] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:22:28] Malcolm Collins: the people who say this and then they get attacked by the left and they find our side open and kind to them-

[00:22:36] Simone Collins: Yeah

[00:22:36] Malcolm Collins: Are much more likely to long-term convert. I think-

[00:22:39] Simone Collins: Yeah, I think that’s the key, is to just, yeah maybe increase exposure. I think the more exchange and exposure there is, the better. Because the big problem is that liberals... Oh my God. Wait. Is this why liberals do this whole contagion thing where you can’t talk to a conservative?

[00:22:56] Because they know that the moment someone talks to a conservative and realizes that they’re not this frog man that,

[00:23:03] Malcolm Collins: No, that is exactly why. The iterations- Oh, God ... of progressivism that didn’t do that. When I’ve talked about how things evolve, how cultures evolve-

[00:23:10] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:23:10] Malcolm Collins: I pointed out that the iterations of the urban monoculture that did not practice this contagion philosophy ended up dying out.

[00:23:17] Because the way that it frames outsiders is just obviously and patently wrong when you begin engaging with them. Which is, again, why the kindness strategy is so strong, right? If you go out there with the lack of judgment and kindness strategy and let’s just talk to get to what’s better for society- long term, right? Yeah You and this is really the strategy to convert. W- one of the things that I think people forget when they go out there with this performative racism or this performative homophobia or this performative transphobia is they do not understand how much they hurt our movement.

[00:23:52] Now, I will say these things are fairly rare, right? We had a g- date couple who went to the pronatalist convention, and one [00:24:00] person was, a a dick about it. Said yeah, I don’t approve of that,” or something in a way that was, like, mean-ish. But that was just one person of

[00:24:06] Simone Collins: everybody who was there.

[00:24:06] Yeah, and for our friend who attended, who, if they saw anything I’m really sorry if we-

[00:24:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, but it, there was one person at the entire pronatalist convention- Yeah ... which had 500 attendees or something like that. The, or no, it was thousands, actually, right? W- were- No,

[00:24:19] Simone Collins: there were not thou- there were not thousands there.

[00:24:21] Malcolm Collins: 500? Okay, I don’t know. But the point being is this sort of stuff is fairly rare on the right of today, and it should be shamed when it is seen because to win somebody over entirely, what we need, which is very different than what a progressive needs to win somebody over. Keep in mind, nobody’s gonna switch their entire worldview from urban monoculture to based new right whatever- Yeah

[00:24:44] overnight. You need to have them have a difference of opinion on just one issue that they won’t back down on. If they have that, eventually we get them. That’s how... look at JK Rowling, right? Even if she may vote leftist today and everything like that, in terms of, like, where she’s culturally fighting in a meaningful context, it is on the right, right?

[00:25:05] You just, because what, the way somebody from an American cultural perspective reacts is when they go out there with their one sane opinion and everybody jumps down their throat most of them are like, “Whoa whoa. Now I’m gonna double down on this one opinion. Now I’m gonna triple down on this one opinion.”

[00:25:21] And they get pushed out, and then they begin to interact with people of our side, and they begin to get information they didn’t have access to before. They begin to get perspectives they didn’t have access to before. And slowly, over the course of, I’d say on average three years, they begin to adopt more and more conservative perspectives to the point where you would agree with them on most things, and you might have a minor difference of opinion here or a difference of opinion there.

[00:25:46] But we can only get there if we start with the acceptance of Oh, you have a difference of opinion on us on the, let’s join the conversation. Let’s be nice. Let’s see, you’re willing to talk to me, the person, I’m willing to talk to you as a person, let’s move forward. But at the same time w- one of the conversations that, historically immediately got shut down is does a continued democratic process in the United States when one party is acting as such a bad actor makes it?

[00:26:20] And-

[00:26:20] Simone Collins: And that’s, this study I think really makes this more of a serious more of a serious discussion because I think the researchers themselves were like, “Look, this is a problem,” because it is well understood in the research that m- meta dehumanization, whi- th- which is to say, like, when you think that the other side hates you, predicts reciprocal dehumanization and support for norm breaking and anti-democratic behaviors.

[00:26:46] That is an argument they made in their research. They’re basically saying wee, woo, warning,” this one group is disproportionately dehumanizing another group, and they’re gonna do- Amoral or even immoral and l- likely illegal things to try to suppress this group. That’s- ... that’s kind of a big deal.

[00:27:05] Malcolm Collins: No, that is a big deal, but I, and I point out here, if you’re a progressive and you’re like, “Come on, what do you mean that once we gain power, we never allow conservatives back in the room, we never allow a conservative opinion again?” I’m like, huh, what about the governing body that sort of rules the world, like the UN or the World Economic Forum?

[00:27:23] How many conservative thinkers get to talk at those events- ... even when conservative powers are in charge within governments like the United States and stuff like that? Virtually none. They are the European Union as well, virtually none. When progressives capture an institution like that, they build their capture in such a way that conservative voices cannot meaningfully impact things again.

[00:27:48] And this is why generally as a conservative, the correct strategy when you take over a body is not to try to make a sane or conservative version of it, but to shut it down. Whether it’s the Department of [00:28:00] Education, whether it’s what was that? Like a US GIV or whatever.

[00:28:03] Simone Collins: USAID.

[00:28:04] USAID. US GIV.

[00:28:05] Malcolm Collins: USAID. Whether it’s- Ugh ... I believe this is also true with the CIA and the FBI. I think both of them should be shut down.

[00:28:10] Simone Collins: But I just think from a governance design standpoint and our understanding of institutions, I think pretty much every institution should have basically term limits unless they’re designed to be a time safe organization.

[00:28:24] And you would know it because it would only have 20 employees- ... 100 years later. And if it doesn’t, then it’s not. Look

[00:28:29] Malcolm Collins: at, look at the German government, right? In this last election in Germany, the majority of Germans voted for a conservative candidate, either the Conservative Party or the AFD.

[00:28:36] And yet, despite the majority of Germans like by a pretty large margin if I remember- It’s so sad ... voting for conservative candidates, the German governing system cheated, essentially. They formed a coalition to keep the AFD out of power and keep a progressive opinion being the dominant opinion of

[00:28:54] Simone Collins: the- And this is just, this is the perfect example of that, of a group that, that hypes the meta dehumanization to such an extent that they will go against the consent of the governed to circumvent the results of an election.

[00:29:10] Perfect

[00:29:11] Malcolm Collins: example. We saw this in the France recently when the right-wing party was gaining too much power, so the left-wing party ended up working with the centrist party- ... to not run people against each other in the districts where rightist candidates were running so that they could again, cheat to win.

[00:29:28] A- and they’re like it’s not cheating. We did it within the system.” And it’s like first of all, we don’t know how much... Like, when the recent LA election where there’s all that smoke where there’s been a, a number of fake ballot situations that have been discovered in Texas, that have been discovered in Pennsylvania, that have been discovered in a lot of states at this point in the United States.

[00:29:44] We basically... they always do this when they finally... This is why it’s so existential. This is why the perspectives of people like Nick Fuentes should always be shamed and othered. Anyone who identifies as a griper, this idea that they would sabotage the conservatives getting the vote in the US because they want people to have opinions closer to their own rather than be part of a wide coalition- Yeah shows the damage, the long-term damage they can do for what is fundamentally, because they know they’re not gonna win the opinions that they’re trying to win, what it is fundamentally status signaling.

[00:30:20] When somebody goes online like a conservative does and they act aggressive towards gay people, they act aggressive towards trans people, they act aggressive towards people of d- of different ethnicities or different religions this is never done strategically. It is always done for status and to look like the most, quote-unquote, conservative guy in the room with your current version of conservatism, which hugely retards our long-term goals.

[00:30:44] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:30:44] Malcolm Collins: And worse than that, can put us in a position where we can never accomplish these long-term goals again. And as I’ve noticed the, n- and I always cite this, the people who do this stuff almost never actually have above replacement rate kids themselves. Because they’re not actually interested in the long-term future of civilization they’re not actually interested in us winning, they don’t actually care what could go wrong.

[00:31:04] They care about how they are perceived by the general public and their community and what they consider conservatives or their constituency which is why they act in that way. Which is why they fight in a way that is obviously stupid. And people will say, “Oh Malcolm, if you let these groups in our communities they’ll still vote leftist.

[00:31:26] They’ll still...” They, somebody was saying this because I was talking about, oh yeah, it was like immigrant populations, let them in, be nice, et cetera. And somebody with the comments was like you can’t do that if they’re all gonna keep voting leftist.” I’m like, bro, the majority of Hispanic men voted for Trump in the last election cycle.

[00:31:38] The be nice philosophy, the be inclusive philosophy works actually extremely effectively. This does-

[00:31:46] Simone Collins: Yeah, no I like your conclusion a lot more than my original one. And you can see that it’s like- Although I think if someone’s unwilling to engage, I think it’s fine to be condescending.

[00:31:53] Malcolm Collins: The, the- In a good way

[00:31:54] good news how much good has Peter Thiel done for the wider conservative movement in terms of [00:32:00] the, the directionality that he’s put us on, the major figures that he’s brought into positions of power, and the staffing of the White House, which was done in part through his networks of this administration, which has been so remarkably effective?

[00:32:11] How much good has Scott Pressler done? These are, they’re both gay individuals, by the way. The point being is you don’t need to agree with everything and everyone in the coalition. Over time you can bring them closer and closer to a long-term conservative future. But you only hurt us when you do this performative gatekeeping.

[00:32:29] And, but somebody was like, “Oh if you let all the gays in our movement, then they’re gonna undermine us.” And it’s like, where have they done that? We have gays in positions of power throughout our movement and have for two decades at this point, and Honestly, they’ve been some of the most loyal scandal-less conservatives in the entire movement.

[00:32:50] Some of the sweetest... Like Scott Pressler, like I’m sorry, compare him to oh, your Ted Cruzes or whatever, right? You- where- who do you expect to get some major scandal about, right? I think that the... there’s this like, “Oh, they’ll do X,” and it’s but they don’t, and we have the evidence that they don’t at this point, okay?

[00:33:08] So stop acting like they’re these weird leftist sex pests that are on the left, right? Like the... It is ab- inclusivity is absolutely, like I know it’s like a scary leftist word to a lot of people, but it is absolutely critical to win and through being more inclusive, as I said in a recent episode, you can be harsher to the out group.

[00:33:29] Because you can say to people, “I’m not after all what... I’m not after all whatever. I am after the bad ones,” right? And the bad ones, we need to be way more extreme in how we handle that.

[00:33:41] Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s like the, the theme of the summer, which is punish your own bad actors. Intensely.

[00:33:47] Malcolm Collins: No, punish your own bad actors- Yeah

[00:33:48] but punish outside bad actors too. But punish bad actors.

[00:33:52] The bad actors and this is where I go further than- And I

[00:33:55] Simone Collins: think, I think the theme is expel the outsider ba- bad actors. I guess expel your own bad actors, but yeah. Don’t ignore your own bad actors.

[00:34:04] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, and, and-

[00:34:06] Simone Collins: Expelling matters more than punishment.

[00:34:07] I wanna be super clear about that. It’s more important... it’s like that Portal song. “I used to want you dead and now I only want you gone,” okay? This is- ...

[00:34:15] Malcolm Collins: moments

[00:34:16] Simone Collins: to live by.

[00:34:17] Malcolm Collins: But I think that it’s really important that we remember how hated we are by the other side in how we think about what future power structures look and the direction we wanna go as we’re building our own companies.

[00:34:31] Oh,

[00:34:31] Simone Collins: I

[00:34:31] Malcolm Collins: know. I’m gonna, I’m just gonna

[00:34:32] Simone Collins: picture the frog man. Forever.

[00:34:34] Malcolm Collins: Like RFAB’s getting to a place where it might become a real meaningful AI company if we’re looking at our existing numbers right now, right? Like-

[00:34:42] Simone Collins: I really hope so ...

[00:34:42] Malcolm Collins: what that means, if we become one of the major AI companies, chatbot sites, AI whatever the of the various features we...

[00:34:49] AI search, AI chat, AI et cetera,

[00:34:51] Simone Collins: How baller would that be? It... Run by a nonprofit that just wants to make the world better. No investors, no control. Like just gets to mess around with the world.

[00:35:03] Malcolm Collins: Gets to mess around with the world. No, but as we- Just let it happen, man ... that means in terms of how we let in leftists in terms of our corporate structure and everything like that.

[00:35:09] It’s not just at the level of like the government of the United States.

[00:35:11] It’s, we need to use the structures that we have under us as a wrecking ball against what they are hitting us with.

[00:35:21] Simone Collins: Yeah

[00:35:22] Malcolm Collins: And I’d also note, like this is not the only study to, to find this. I wanna go over a, a couple other studies here.

[00:35:28] The 2012 PLS 1 paper, The Moral Stereotypes of Liberals and Conservatives tested how accurately people ... Oh, is this the one that you just did? No, it’s not. It’s, it was the one with questionnaire.

[00:35:39] Simone Collins: No. This one came out in July 2026.

[00:35:40] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. July

[00:35:41] Simone Collins: 7th.

[00:35:41] Malcolm Collins: Stereotypes correctly captured the direction of real differences but exaggerated their size.

[00:35:46] Liberals were the least accurate overall, especially they underestimated conservatives’ concern for harm and fairness, a large underestimation, and overestimated how much conservatives cared about their binding [00:36:00] foundations. Conservatives were significantly more accurate. Empathy and- surprise

[00:36:03] and asymmetry. Liberals and Democrats consistently showed less empathy towards conservative Republicans than the reverse. And essentially what we’re saying here is this is a good thing. We shouldn’t stop this. We shouldn’t say this is our weakness.

[00:36:18] Another similar study we actually covered in a, another episode, was Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin published in 2024, Political Dehumanization and Mental Representations: Divergent Emphasis in the Minds of Liberals Versus Conservatives, and it showed that liberals dramatically more dehumanize conservatives than the other way around.

[00:36:37] Specifically conservatives, as we’ve pointed out, just see liberals as irrational, naive, and irresponsible, whereas liberals see conservatives as aggressive, moral lacking, and cold-hearted and barbaric

[00:36:50] And then in a study in 2023, empathetic conservatives and moralizing liberals, shows that liberals showed less empathy for conservatives than conservatives showed for liberals

[00:36:59] Malcolm Collins: We should continue to treat them with empathy. We should continue to see them with empathy, and we should continue the pattern of inclusivity that has won us the cultural victories that have gotten us to where we are right now.

[00:37:10] Simone Collins: But until we’re aligned, don’t give them admin roles

[00:37:13] Malcolm Collins: And I think that’s totally like where we’ve been moving the movement. Yeah. But it’s also important, like when you’re like, “Don’t give them admin roles,” I’m actually gonna push back a little bit there. I, I think that if somebody is coming to the conservative movement within the culture war, and they already have a position of cultural authority, and they used to be a leftist and they’re beginning to flirt with conservatism-

[00:37:35] Simone Collins: Oh

[00:37:35] Malcolm Collins: you

[00:37:35] Simone Collins: can, can- no. That’s what I say. When you’re aligned, they’re in. That’s fine. No,

[00:37:39] No. But if you’re still actively wishing you dead-

[00:37:40] Malcolm Collins: You misunderstood what I mean. Yeah, admin roles within organizations that we’ve built and everything like that, yes.

[00:37:44] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:37:45] Malcolm Collins: But if you’re talking about J.K.

[00:37:46] Rowling basically was immediately assigned, the moment leftists started crashing out on her, conservatives were like, “Okay, now you are running the trans skeptic movement, Mrs. Rowling.” That was basically the way that we treated it, right? And she’s done a fantastic job. We, when Elon began to have ideas about conservatism and oh, politics and being based, we were basically like, “Okay, you are now the meme lord of the internet.

[00:38:10] You meme your world,” Mr, Mr. E? And he immediately was, just ran on it, and has been an incredibly ... I actually can’t think of any instance where somebody has started flirting with genuinely conservative ideas and we put we centered them, and it’s really blown up in our faces.

[00:38:30] Generally, I, I, and I think that’s because what we look for as a cultural movement is anybody who’s searching for like genuinely, like what’s the ... It’s really funny. What the conservative movement basically is today is people searching for like what is actually true. Which is why you have such a diversity of opinions within the movement.

[00:38:47] What is actually the best way to do this? And I think one thing where we’re moving because of findings like this, because of things recently in studies and stuff like that, is the illusion of across various countries of democracies, because we’ve seen, again, in France, in Germany in the UK potentially in the United States, how the democratic process has been unfairly subverted by leftists who are not acting in good faith to maintain power, which then leaves us in a position where we need to begin to question whether the democratic method is the best method for us to move forwards.

[00:39:23] If it’s not gonna it, you’re going out there and the other side isn’t playing fair, you don’t need to keep playing that game anymore.

[00:39:29] And I think that’s an idea that like, starting, I don’t know, these last couple weeks, that I’m like, no, this needs to be way more normalized and less stigmatized as an idea.

[00:39:37] And know, like obviously we’re not the first ones to talk about this. Curtis Yarvin has been on this forever at this point. But if we’re setting the tone for where we’re going long term, what’s also true is it just looks like that’s where we go no matter what. Most of the European countries are gonna be bankrupt in the near future because of their social security systems.

[00:39:53] And when the majority of the citizens are living off of those systems, as they are in many European systems, not ... But if you [00:40:00] combine social security and welfare, in most European countries, the majority of the population is living off of the state. That, that ... They’re not gonna vote themselves less stuff.

[00:40:07] So they’re just gonna end up wrecking their economies. And then if you’ve wrecked your economy, the state cannot power project as well which means either you go towards totalitarianism and you begin to withdraw some of these systems and begin to make a system that works, or the entities, corporations that have wealth still will power project more.

[00:40:27] Which is what we’re seeing in the war of the tech lords and AI and everything like that, which is again why I say if you want your movement to control the future of humanity, you need to be appealing to the tech lords. You need to know what’s going on in their world perspective, what they value, and how you sell and align with those value perspectives with the things that you actually care about.

[00:40:47] Because if you isolate all the tech lords you lose. I don’t even care if you control the government. You just lose

[00:40:55] Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s that’s what I meant, Malcolm, when I said don’t give them ad- like a technical admin. Like- ... you’re giving someone admin access to your bank account. I would just, if someone identifies as on the left, it just means that apparently their prerogative is to de- dis- disempower the right systematically- No, you,

[00:41:16] Malcolm Collins: You wanna-

[00:41:17] or at least like the rightest ... you wanna create more right-wing people or celebrity... I’ll tell you like a great way to right-wing a celebrity, right? You we gotta take someone like Sam Altman and then make him like the voice on X, right? Like the voice on why you need to do Y. And it’s like X mildly conservative thing.

[00:41:31] Then all the leftists will start attacking him, and he’ll start moving. That’s largely why Sam Altman has been so right-wing. A lot of people are, it’s because he just kept getting attacked for reasonable takes.

[00:41:42] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I agree. I think your original point was the most salient, which is just exposure.

[00:41:47] The more you hang out with people who are not extremely left wing who will just continue to create this straw man of the right wing, you realize that you might be on the wrong side. Which is- Yeah ... the weird experience I had after I met you.

[00:42:04] Malcolm Collins: It’s wait. This is the really ironic thing about those rightists who wanna take the griper strategy or whatever.

[00:42:09] If you, as, like the alt-right used to do this to some extent, dehumanize gay people or trans people or Muslims or whatever, right? And then somebody from your movement meets one of these people, and they’re a totally normal person without crazy opinions, and they’re like, “Wait, so the whole movement was f*****g lying to me,” right?

[00:42:25] It’s way better to talk about the bad actors, the sex pests, the Islamists, the, people who are fight- And people are like, “Oh, you can’t tell who the bad actors are?” You’re a d*****s if you can’t tell who the bad actors are. I’m gonna be real honest with you. I have seen no instances of me ex- being like no that, that guy is one of the good ones,” and then it turned out that they were, like, psyching me out or something like that.

[00:42:50] That has never happened not with any any ethnic minority that I can think of, any, may- maybe one of you guys can be like no. Here is one of the ones where you got...” Like the only time where I feel this is somebody who we had on the show, where I was like, “Oh I misjudged his character,” was probably Richard Hanania.

[00:43:07] But I think that a lot of people when they look at him would be like, “He’s just a generic white guy.” Nobody was, like, giving him a pass, right? Even when I look at, like, where somebody has gone to the other side or done some- or done a flip or something they’ve never been one of the cases where it was somebody that I feel that our movement gave a, an amount of credit to, right?

[00:43:27] It just doesn’t seem to happen very much, and y- people are making up these imaginary scenarios in their head about why they can’t trust X group or Y group, and they’re stupid, and they end up hurting us.

[00:43:38] Simone Collins: I don’t think it’s also, you

[00:43:41] Malcolm Collins: can- In the same way that it hurts the leftists when the leftists say all conservatives are evil, and then they meet a conservative and they’re like, “Oh, they’re all nice.”

[00:43:46] Which is really important to remember. If you ever take the position that all of X group is evil, or you allow someone in our movement who takes that position, you don’t just push X group out of our movement. You push everyone [00:44:00] who has ever met a member of X group who isn’t like that out of our movement.

[00:44:04] And that is incredibly bad, and this is why it is so good that we have been able to push out people like Nick Fuentes and the gropers, and we should continue to hold an iron wall against these types of mindsets because they prevent us from taking, one, a maximally punishing stance against the actual bad actors, and two, , they prevent us from winning elections, which is critical at this time in human history

[00:44:30] Simone Collins: Well- But you- ... but also, like, when someone is willing to have discourse with you, it’s not like anyone gave, gives random people who they will mix with. Okay, what’s different about the conservative movement and why I don’t, I’m not even concerned about people who might just switch back to becoming leftists is we’re just here for discourse, and it doesn’t matter if you’re from the left or from the right or going to the left or going to the right.

[00:44:54] In this movement, I’ve noticed that if someone gives a dumb take, people are gonna point it out. There’s no I have to blindly agree with everything you’re saying. They’ll be like, “That’s stupid.” Whereas on the left it’s very different. If you say something that doesn’t toe the line I don’t know Hamas seems to be pre- it looks like in Palestine children are being used as human shields.

[00:45:14] You’ll get in really big trouble. People won’t be like Yeah, I hear you on that. So- Or

[00:45:19] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, there’s evidence for that, there’s evidence for the other, I know another thing that I’ve been thinking about recently, I’ve noticed that so many leftists are only leftists because they think that all of the examples of abuses that people on the right find are anecdotal rather than like systemic, right?

[00:45:36] They keep passing, “Oh, that’s an anecdotal case of that.” Oh. “That’s an anecdotal

[00:45:40] Simone Collins: whatever.” No, you’re absolutely right. Yeah, that was an isolated, a, a terror attack. That was an isolated killing. That was an isolated instance of suppression of free speech. Yeah,

[00:45:48] Malcolm Collins: did you know- Yeah ... that now and this was reported by The Guardian, over 50% of Muslims in the UK want think that gayness should be i- illegal?

[00:45:56] Like I, I think that this is like, this isn’t isolated. And keep in mind if they want this from a Sharia law perspective, that means they want to kill them. This is not an isolated perspective this is the data, right? So this now means that there are a portion when people are like... and this is where it’s really easy.

[00:46:11] When people say, and this is what makes it a lot harder to attack when you take things this way, “Oh, you wanna kick out all of the Muslims in the UK?” It’s like, no, I wanna kick out the ones that eventually want Sharia law, that wanna kill gay people. Is that something you have a problem with? You wanna keep the ones that wanna kill gay people?

[00:46:26] Th- that’s where you push them so far into a corner that you allow severe actions even at scale.

[00:46:33] Simone Collins: Gotta get the kids. Definitely didn’t realize things were this bad. I guess maybe intuitively we knew this was this bad. I just, I don’t know, I wanna think that people are broadly reasonable.

[00:46:42] And I guess I have that same tendency, whereas when something terrible happens, I want to think that it is an anecdotal instance. But that goes back to the root intuition and tendency of the left, of progressivism, and the broad memetic virus that has overtaken it, which you have identified in various episodes, which is the desire to take the least morally uncomfortable conclusion from something.

[00:47:07] So the least morally uncomfortable conclusion is, “Oh, it was an isolated incident.” No, that’s just a couple really deranged people who identify as progressives making all of them seem really crazy. But then you see peer-reviewed research come out like this, and it kinda has to change your view a little bit if you’re going to actually follow a consistent standard of evidence.

[00:47:29] So sobering. Anyway, I will go get the kids, and I love you very much.

[00:47:34] Malcolm Collins: Love you too. We’re doing fried rice tonight.

[00:47:36] Simone Collins: Unless you wanna do gyoza lasagna and give me a break.

[00:47:40] Malcolm Collins: I-

[00:47:41] Simone Collins: You don’t. That’s okay. It’s fine. I love you. Bye.

[00:47:50] Speaker 2: What are you doing? Attack [00:48:00] on Titan. No, ah! Titan attack

[00:48:07] Do it! You are merciless. Oh my gosh, Titan

In this episode of Based Camp, Simone and Malcolm Collins dive deep into the 1,141-page collection of Anthony Fauci’s private typewritten notes (December 2019–December 2022) released by Senator Rand Paul’s office.

Most media coverage has been surface-level and dismissive. Simone spent significant tokens analyzing the full (scanned, hard-to-read) document. What emerges is far more revealing: Fauci’s early private concerns about lab-origin possibilities and gain-of-function research he helped fund, how the narrative hardened over time, his internal framing of expert disagreements, the evolution of mask guidance, vaccine safety signals he tracked privately, and the surreal personal side of sudden celebrity (bobbleheads, prayer candles, celebrity encounters, and more).

We walk through the actual quotes so you can judge for yourself. The full original PDF is linked in the show notes.

This is one of the clearest windows we’ve had into how the official COVID narrative was managed from the inside.

Show Notes

Here is the original PDF.

What People are Saying About This

The mainstream/leftist response to this is that Republicans are out on a Fauci-themed witch hunt.

In response to someone asking “what’s going on with anthony fauci and his diary?” on r/OutOfTheLoop, Bignholy (who posted the top-voted comment) wrote:

Rand Paul got ahold of Fauci’s private notes internal nonpublic notes from the COVID era. The current GOP being what it is, they are now trying to use that to push for punishing Fauci based on the fact that he wrote in it some things that don’t match the final statements made by the CDC back during COVID.

When Fauci was called in to yet again to be questioned yet again by the same people who ignored him and tried to prosecute him previously, he flat out said that they are now seeking to entrap him for political reasons, and plead the 5th rather than play along. Quote from the article, for those who come after and don’t want to click the bloody link:

“However, given Senator Paul’s obvious obsession with calling for my prosecution, his repeated slanderous comments about me, and recently his publicly releasing my unredacted personal diary aimed at embarrassing and intimidating me, the only conclusion I can reach is that the sole reason he is calling me before this committee is to get me to say something, anything, that could vindicate his repeated public pledges that I end up in his words, quote, behind bars, unquote,” Fauci said.

“Any reasonable person who has followed his unhinged obsession with me would readily come to the same conclusion,” he said.

“Therefore, although it pains me to do so, because of the respect I have for the legislative branch of government and my decades-long record of cooperating with Congress under the advice of my attorneys, I will invoke my right under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution to refrain from answering your questions.”

Original-Rush139 added: “I only read through January of 2020 but he seemed convinced the market was where the virus spread not originated. I didn’t see any hypothesis about its origin. People don’t get that he was very careful in public to talk about the data he had. China covered everything up so there never was and never will be data about the origin.”

Virus Origins

What does Dr. Fauci write about the origins of the COVID-19 virus? Does he seriously entertain the idea that it was a lab leak?

* On January 26, 2020, Fauci wrote about the Wuhan wet market: “It now appears using epi data and genomic data that the first infection was in early December and was not connected to the market... Now we know the market was not the source, it was the amplifier. Having said that, somewhere the virus jumped from animals to humans.”

* The more striking entries come from January 31, 2020. Fauci describes a call from Wellcome Trust director Jeremy Farrar, conferenced with evolutionary biologist Kristian Andersen: “There have been conspiracy theories that the virus was given GOF by inserted mutations and deliberately or accidentally released in Wuhan... The people on the phone felt that the mutations around the furine cleavage site of the spike protein could not have occurred naturally since it would require an evolutionary ‘jump’ that they found nowhere in bat isolates. They bring up the possibility that this could have been deliberately inserted and either accidentally released or deliberately released by a crazy person in the lab, the former being the most likely.”

* On February 1, 2020, Fauci convened a larger group of virologists (Andersen, Holmes, Drosten, Fouchier, Garry, Rambaut, and others) to debate it. His notes are unambiguous that opinion was split: “There was not total agreement about the likelihood of deliberate insertion. Ron Fouchier said he was sure that this could occur naturally... Also, Christian Drosten was with Ron; the rest felt that deliberate insertion was possible.”

* By February 6, 2020, a National Academies review he’d helped set up “decided that there was no clear evidence of malfeasance, but it should be looked into.”

* Later in 2020 and through 2022 he becomes increasingly confident in natural origin, more dismissive of the lab-leak camp

* Looking back on June 7, 2021, he reiterated that he wasn’t the one who raised the lab-leak possibility — the scientists briefed him: “I was briefed by them... After a considerable amount of discussion about half of the people felt that this was possibly a constructed virus and the other half were convinced that this was a natural occurrence. A few weeks later Christian Andersen got together with Bob Garry and Andrew Rambaut... and they came to the conclusion that... this was a natural occurrence.”

* On May 23, 2021, after Andersen told him the NIH-funded Wuhan work wasn’t gain-of-function, Fauci wrote he felt “much better now that he is in total support of what I have been saying.”

* The most revealing entry is July 7, 2021, describing a National Security Council briefing with Beth Cameron and Maher Bitar: “it became clear that the FBI has no idea what they’re talking about since they are convinced that the origin of COVID-19 is from a laboratory leak. The reasons that they give do not make any sense. In contrast the NSA gave some reasonable hypotheses leaning heavily towards a natural jump of species... I emphasized that I keep an open mind about the possibility of a lab leak. However, in this regard, I emphasized that just because two alternatives are possible that does not mean that they are equally probable.”

* When the U.S. intelligence community’s origins report came out in late August 2021, he noted: “They still left open the possibility that it could be a lab leak; However, more elements of the intelligence community felt that it was a natural occurrence compared to the single component (FBI) who seemed to feel strongly that it was a lab leak, although this is based on no data at all.”

* By July 2022, his private tone toward lab-leak proponents had hardened further. At a social event, he wrote that Fox News anchor Bret Baier “finally admitted that the 2 recent Science papers by Worobey, Andersen, Rasmussen et al convince him that the lab leak theory is really not true.” Throughout 2021–2022 he repeatedly vents about congressional critics (especially Sen. Paul) over gain-of-function funding, at one point writing the accusations were “totally mind boggling how they are distorting” the record.

So the diary shows real, serious scientific engagement with the lab-leak hypothesis at the outset, followed by growing private confidence that a natural spillover was far more likely — a middle-ground picture, not a “smoking gun” of concealment, though Senator Paul’s framing of the release argues otherwise.

What does Dr. Fauci write about gain of function (GOF) research?

* Across the diary, gain-of-function (GOF) comes up constantly from spring 2021 onward — almost always in the context of Republican senators and outside scientists accusing NIAID of funding GOF research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology that they claim caused the pandemic. Fauci’s own position stays consistent: NIAID’s EcoHealth Alliance subaward funded work that some experts call gain-of-function under a loose definition, but it did not meet the government’s official regulatory definition (P3CO), and — critically — the viruses studied could not have evolved into SARS-CoV-2.

* On May 19, 2021, he wrote: “One of the real problems is that people are conflating whether or not we approved gain of function research for Wuhan and the possibility that the Chinese created SARS-C0V-2 in the laboratory. Whether or not one agrees as to the conduct of gain of function research, when you look at the bat viruses that was studied under the grant and compare the genetic sequences with SARS-CoV-2 it becomes clear that SARS-CoV-2 could not have come from the bat viruses associated with the grant that was funded.”

* Later, describing the Oct. 21–23, 2021 controversy over a late EcoHealth progress report showing mice getting sicker in the study, he wrote (Oct. 23, 2021): “Larry made it very clear that the research did not rise to the scrutiny of P3CO. In other words by our definition, it was not gain of function.” That “by our definition” caveat is the crux of his position — he acknowledges the science is ambiguous by looser definitions, but insists it didn’t meet the formal regulatory threshold that would have required special review.

* His private language toward critics is far harsher than his public statements.

* On one entry he wrote of scientist Richard Ebright: “Richard Ebright with his gain of function obsession is a total a*****e who is pushing this theory because he ‘wants to be somebody.’” He added: “I am terribly disappointed with Jesse Bloom and David Relman for doing somewhat of the same thing... I believe that in some respects they are pushing for an even hoping that this was a lab leak, which the molecular analysis of the viruses... clearly indicate that it is molecularly impossible for the viruses under the auspices of the NIH grant to have been manipulated into or evolved into SARS-Cov-2.

Masking

What does he write about the efficacy of masking privately during the early stages of the pandemic when the US government publicly dissuaded the public from masking (even though wearing N-95 masks was moderately protective)?

* both in his own words and in press clippings he pasted into the diary: the initial “don’t wear masks” guidance was driven by a PPE shortage for healthcare workers, not a scientific judgment that masks were ineffective — and he later acknowledges, somewhat sheepishly, that the messaging went too far.

* Around March 31–April 1, 2020, as the White House debated universal masking, Fauci wrote plainly: “Big issue today is whether w should be recommending masks for everyone. We probably were too strong in saying masks do not work. I mentioned this on CNN (Sciutto) this AM.”

* This is his most direct private acknowledgment that the original “masks don’t work” messaging had overstated the case.

What does he write about the efficacy (or really, lack thereof) of homemade cloth masks later in the pandemic when the US government publicly supported mask mandates?

* The clearest mask-quality entry is actually about upgrading protection, not questioning cloth masks. Fauci wrote: “CDC starting to do practical things that I have actually been pushing for some time. For example: Wearing 2 masks could be better than just one. They did a dummy study and showed that a cloth mask over a surgical mask actually gives a more complete fit and keeps out aerosols.” This frames cloth masks as a useful component of a better-fitting combination, not as ineffective on their

* After Trump’s COVID diagnosis, Fauci noted the president “wore a cloth mask instead of a N95 and press criticized him for endangering the Secret Service who were in the car” during his drive-by wave to supporters. This treats N95 as the clearly superior choice for someone actively infectious, though it’s reported as press criticism rather than Fauci’s own stated opinion.

Vaccines

Did Dr. Fauci express any concern or hesitancy about the vaccines that were released to the public?

* On December 17, 2020, discussing UK data with Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance: “the UK is seeing more than just the two instances of anaphylactic reactions to the mRNA vaccine of Pfizer” — he was tracking this signal closely even before U.S. rollout began.

* On April 12, 2021: “Got call at 10:00 PM from Rochelle Walensky that the CDC and FDA had called a pause of the J & J vaccine due to 6 cases (all women – ages 18 to 48) of Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis (CVST). I died [sic — likely ‘I’ should read ‘1’], 3 hospitalized (2 in ICU), 2 discharged.” The next day he noted: “Obviously, this is a big deal even though it is a very rare

* When an Oxford-affiliated study claimed mRNA vaccines caused more thrombosis than AstraZeneca’s (April 14, 2021), he wrote: “Obviously, b******t. They did not look for thrombocytopenia and so the observation is invalid... not surprising fr[om] the Oxford group sine [since] their vaccine is in trouble and I would not be surprised if they were trying to disparage the other vaccines.” This shows he was willing to publicly reject safety claims he judged methodologically weak, seeing some as motivated reasoning by a competitor.

* Myocarditis in young men — a genuine, recurring safety issue he took seriously, but pushed to move past. Repeatedly through August–November 2021, he documented internal FDA/CDC debate over booster and pediatric authorization being slowed by “the risk of myocarditis balanced against the risk of their winding up in the hospital as a result of COVID.” Interestingly, his own position was less cautious than the regulators’: on Nov. 9, 2021 he wrote he was “pushing hard” for boosting everyone despite the FDA/ACIP’s myocarditis concerns, saying he was “clearly at odds with the conservative approach of the ACIP” — he saw them as “overly concerned,” not the reverse.

What vaccine did he personally get?

* Fauci got the Moderna vaccine. On December 18, 2020, he wrote: “Moderna’s mRNA vaccine gets EUA from FDA. Likely start vaccinating within a few days (likely Monday, 21 December)... Just found out that NIH will finally get doses of vaccine from Moderna... which means I will likely get vaccinated on Tuesday, 22 December. I am insisting that I receive vaccine ONLY if Clinical Center ICU people ALSO receive it at the same time as I do.” That last line is notable — he made his own vaccination conditional on frontline ICU staff getting doses simultaneously, rather than jumping the line alone.

Funny Things

He delighted in his cult of personality

* A press clip he saved describes “prayer candles depicting ‘St. Fauci’” and notes “an Etsy seller has made prayer candles featuring Fauci depicted as an angel.”

* He tracked his own bobblehead sales like a hobbyist: “Bobblehead raises $100,000 for American [healthcare workers],” and later notes a “facepalm” version was released “when the original bobblehead sold out” — a bobblehead of himself literally facepalming.

* He noted a beer named after him: “Brewery in Georgia named a beer after me ‘Fauci Spring.’”

* Underwear merch: “Despite my being kept out of the press by the Whit House COMMS people, the media blitz about me continues strong, as well as the gimmick stuff like underwear (bikini) with either my name on the front.”

* Socks as a family legacy: “A few months ago, I was proudly wearing my Fauci socks when my son, King Jr. came over to join me for a walk – and showed me his own Tony Fauci socks. Clearly, I have taught my kids (and grandkids) well.”

* The full haul, self-listed: “Continued crazy stuff: Petition to name me ‘Sexiest Man Alive’; videos games named after me; Fauci Bobblehead; dishes in restaurants named after me, and on and on.”

He was super stoked about his celebrity encounters

* Joan Baez, “meant for each other”: After finally meeting his year-long texting friend in person at the Kennedy Center Honors, he wrote their “friendship was cemented last night as it became clear that we really were, as I said, ‘meant for each other.’” He also recounts Garth Brooks’s wife “just gushing to meet me.”

* Julia Roberts fangirling over him: “She put her hands in front of her mouth and said ‘Oh my God. It’s Dr. Fauci, he is here.’”

* Brad Pitt’s SNL cameo: “Brad Pitt plays me on Saturday Night Live and thanks me in serious tone after his skit.”

* A pop song written about him: “Bets Malone has written a song about me to the words of ‘You Made Me Love You.’ Going viral on YouTube. Totally crazy.”

* Obama’s blunt assessment of Trump Jr.: After Fauci described Don Jr.’s “Fauci kills puppies” merchandise, Obama reportedly said Trump Jr. is “a f*****g moron,” apologized for the language, then added Trump Sr. “was a hopeless idiot who was a pathologic liar.”

His exchanges with Trump

* Trump pulled him aside and said: “Tony, you are losing me trillions of f*****g dollars.” He followed with an oddly candid mob-boss-style truce: “You are playing me and I am playing you. I know you better than you think and I respect you and like you.”

* After his own comments moved the stock market up, he mused: “my remarks actually made him ‘4 trillion f*****g dollars,’ and so he owes me $3 trillion.”

* Trump, annoyed at having to wear a mask for a Rose Garden event, snapped: “Who gives a s**t about the press; they will try to kill us no matter what we do.”

His occasional embarrassment or humble bragging

* “Nancy Pelosi... was her usual self with me (big hug, kiss and telling everyone how great I am — little embarrassing).”

* Before signing a relief bill, Trump reportedly said, “Anthony, come here with us. I cannot sign this without you being here,” prompting applause from the room. Fauci’s own note: “Very embarrassing. I am not comfortable with this attention.”

* Near retirement, still humble-bragging about the humility: “I am really being somewhat embarrassed by the amount of honors that are being given to me and kudos my way... it was somewhat embarrassing since I do not like that kind of attention” — written after a State Department ceremony where Secretary Blinken personally praised him.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: are other people not covering it from this angle? Are you just better at researching? Are

[00:00:03] Simone Collins: you just better- I was willing to put down a lot of money to analyze the doc. And it’s not an easily readable PDF because they’re scans of typewritten ‘cause he’s old content.

[00:00:15] Malcolm Collins: I love that that’s what we do.

[00:00:16] Simone Collins: Yes, dear listener. This is how much- ... we care about you.

[00:00:19] Would you like to know more?

[00:00:21] Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I’m excited to be speaking with you today because we are going to be diving into the mind of COVID era Dr.

[00:00:29] Anthony Fauci. Rand Paul, who’s the chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, who hates Dr. Anthony Fauci, recently released a 1,141-page collection of his private typewritten notes from December 2019 through December 2022 just ahead of his subpoenaed testimony on July 29th. It happened a couple days ago.

[00:00:53] And I’ve been super keen to know what he wrote internally about the lab leak hypothesis and gain-of-function research and mask policy. So super excited to dive in especially since most of the coverage I’ve read about it has been from leftists and has been very surface-oriented and dismissive. So I, I get

[00:01:11] I’m mad about that. They ... There’s a lot in over 1,000 pages. What I didn’t expect to encounter in my analysis was the really fascinating personal diary-style notes that give an insight into what it’s like to become an overnight sensation. His, his entries as he experienced this are both hilarious and endearing and kind of insightful as, like

[00:01:34] Who do you know? I mean, there’s so few people in the world who have experienced sudden rises to fame like he did, especially at this time where the entire- Well,

[00:01:42] Malcolm Collins: what’s really interesting about his rise to fame is that it was the last sort of engineered leftist-controlled media rise to fame of someone.

[00:01:52] Mm-hmm. Like, the media just decided he needed to be the hero that everyone was going to focus on and listen to. Yeah. Yeah. His narrative is the correct narrative. Obey the authority. Mm-hmm. Basically that’s, that was the idea. Mm-hmm ... and the, the media no longer has the moral authority to do that. It really doesn’t,

[00:02:09] Simone Collins: yeah

[00:02:10] Malcolm Collins: it wouldn’t work. If they tried to re-Fauci-ize someone, everyone would just laugh at them. They’d be like, “Uh-huh.” And in fact, it would probably have the exact opposite effect than what

[00:02:19] Simone Collins: they were shooting for. Oh, yeah, it would backfire, so no one wouldn’t-

[00:02:20] ...

[00:02:20] Simone Collins: Dare to do it, I think.

[00:02:22] Malcolm Collins: But the media as a ... We might actually, I take it back, we might have been the last engineered celebrities in mainstream media.

[00:02:31] Simone Collins: Oh, because the media was like, “Look at these bad guys. They’re

[00:02:34] Malcolm Collins: evil.” But we did it through the, the opposite channel of getting them to criticize us- Yeah ... knowing that the media had already lost the public’s trust, but still had enough reach that people would hear about us.

[00:02:46] Simone Collins: Yeah, maybe. Could be. Yeah, I, yeah, I don’t know.

[00:02:50] It’s, it’s, it, and it wasn’t just that the media had crowned him, it was during a time when the world literally had nothing else to think about but what the media was saying, ‘cause they were stuck at home, often not working. Yeah. And so there was extra attention. Like, this is ultra celebrity, ultra magnification, and it, I just found it interesting to see what it would do to this man who, I, just, like, right off the bat, you can get the, the full PDF from Rand Paul’s website.

[00:03:20] It’s actually really cute. His office as, like, a cover page has this, like, pink diary style summary with, like- ... a little, like, icon of, like, “Do not read, it’s secret.” Secret, really?

[00:03:32] Malcolm Collins: Oh, my God. Yeah. That is so fun. The

[00:03:38] Simone Collins: trolling- You’re like they’re, they’re

[00:03:38] Malcolm Collins: making fun

[00:03:39] Simone Collins: of him ... of, of Trump administration. But then, like, so they, they, it, it, like, starts, you know, i- in December of 2019, the records do.

[00:03:46] And, and so this first part that I was reading was just, like, the cutoff line from the previous month or something. But already I’m like, “Oh, this is gonna, this is gonna be great.” Because I, I just, like, the first line, you’ll see when you open the [00:04:00] PDF, he writes, “I am starting to collect cacti in my home office.”

[00:04:05] So, like- ... what is, what is going to happen to the mind of this, this man whose interests include his small cacti collection? I was just so excited to get into it. So I wanna give you a picture of why I was kind of miffed enough to want to cover this first, so you can understand what, like, the world is saying about this, and what their conclusions are about this document.

[00:04:27] And w- what I’m giving you is a, a response to someone asking, “What’s going on with the Anthony Fauci and his diary on Out of The Loop on Reddit?” Mm-hmm. Which I use as a means to kind of see what people are, like- They wanna be clued in about it, it’s trending, but the news coverage is not good. Like, Out Of The Loop is a really good place to find that, right?

[00:04:46] Because you’re not gonna post to Out Of The Loop. You’re like super re-

[00:04:49] Malcolm Collins: But it’s very leftist coded, so

[00:04:51] Simone Collins: I don’t- It’s very leftist coded, yes. So I only get it for ideas. I don’t actually believe the coverage. But the answer that got the top votes is exactly what I’ve heard from all the other coverage that I’ve seen on YouTube and in media.

[00:05:03] So what the top voted poster said, Big And Holy, so professional said, “Rand Paul got ahold of Fauci’s private notes, internal non-public notes from the COVID era. The current GOP, being what it is...” Yeah, leftist. Very miserable and leftist. Yeah. “They’re now trying to use that to push punishing Fauci based on the fact that he wrote it in some things that don’t match with the final statements made by the CDC back during COVID.

[00:05:31] When Fauci was called in yet again to be questioned yet again by the same people who ignored him and tried to prosecute him previously, he flat out said they are now seeking to entrap him for political reasons and plead the Fifth rather than play along.” Quote from the article who’s, from those who come after and don’t want to click the bloody link.

[00:05:52] And this is from the article that the person who posted the question

[00:05:57] Malcolm Collins: linked. W- so I mean, we now know demonstrably that Fauci was the person who initiated the funding of the gain of function COVID labs. Mm-hmm. Like, he created....

[00:06:07] As you know, it is time for the Mad Scientist Society’s Annual Most Evil Invention in the World Contest. Hear, hear,

[00:06:17] ha ha ha! I am Dr. Micronox! And the most evil invention in the world is my shrink ray! I am the Bareness Antarctica. My entry for world’s most evil invention is the freeze ray. Okay. Who is next? Okay. Thank you.

[00:06:42] Hi guys, uh, I’m um, my name is ,

[00:06:46] Dr. Fauci and uh, I um, and for the most evil invention in the world contest, I invented a uh, a

[00:06:53] Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx): Deadly virus that you probably know is COVID.

[00:06:56] I beg your pardon, what? Um, Oh, I’m sorry, I’ll speak up. Uh,

[00:07:04] So I took money from the US taxpayers and then invested millions of dollars into the

[00:07:10] Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-1: Lou Hahn covert Dana function labs. It’s this lab where we take viruses. In this case specifically, we were working with the COVID virus. Um, and attempt to make it both more virulent and more deadly.

[00:07:22] Um. So, , do I win the contest? I win? Seems like I win. Oh my god! What’s wrong? What’s wrong? My most evil idea was a blizzard in July. Right. Well, I went in a slightly different direction with the assignment. You built

[00:07:42] Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-2: A deadly pandemic.

[00:07:44] Yes, yes, yes. That’s exactly right. This guy gets it. You get it.

[00:07:48] Oh my god, no I don’t! How, how do you even build a

[00:07:53] Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-3: Deadlier more virulent virus.

[00:07:56] Well, that’s a, um, that’s a great question. What you do is you start by [00:08:00] building a regular

[00:08:00] Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-4: COVID virus and then you make small modifications to it.

[00:08:04] That might make it more of your land or more deadly, and then you test it out on thousands upon thousands of animals until you find one that’s just really good at killing things.

[00:08:15] and hope that it continues, uh, the cycle. Dear Lord Almighty! That’s the most hideous thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life.

[00:08:23] Oh, well, thank you very much. You see, the shrink guy, uh, uh, is with me all the way. Stop saying that! You know, I want to remind you guys that, uh, in Webster’s Dictionary, defines evil as profoundly immoral. We know what evil means! Well, it doesn’t seem like you do, because you built a, a freeze ray.

[00:08:42] Malcolm Collins: he, he, A- and then, and then punished anyone who said anything about that.

[00:08:48] Did he in any way reflect on that anywhere in his diaries, or is that just not there? Like-

[00:08:52] Simone Collins: That’s the first thing I went in to, to look at. And I, I, so I’m maybe too autistic. Like, I take things super literally. So I’m kinda like, “Oh.” I mean, one, one person in, in the same out of the loop thread said, “I only read through January of 2020, but he seemed convinced that the market was where the virus spread, not originated.

[00:09:13] I didn’t see any hypotheses about its origin. People don’t get that he was very careful in public to talk about the data he had. China covered everything up, so there never was and never will be data about the origin.” So that’s not actually what I took from the document. What I took from this was in the beginning, and I could be...

[00:09:30] I’m just maybe coming with way too much bias, and so I, I’m, I’m gonna read some actual quotes, and you, the listener, and you, Malcolm, can decide what you think. But what I read from this is him in the beginning being legit concerned that gain-of-function research that he funded has caused the leak. And

[00:09:47] Malcolm Collins: they don’t- And

[00:09:48] Simone Collins: then trying to present a narrative that it wasn’t, and then every time someone gives him evidence or an argument that it wasn’t, he’s like, “Oh, okay.

[00:09:58] Well, no, see, it wasn’t,” and then he just becomes so entrenched in, “It wasn’t, it wasn’t, it wasn’t” that, like, he kind of comes to believe it and kind of gaslights both himself and in the records would never, ever admit. But he kind of passively does. I’ll also... I, I, I went through and looked at his gain-of-function comments.

[00:10:16] How

[00:10:16] Malcolm Collins: are other people not covering it from this angle? Are you just better at researching? Are

[00:10:20] Simone Collins: you just better- I was willing to put down a lot of money to analyze the doc. Well, not a lot of money, but, like, I think most people... ‘Cause this, this, this document is so long and it’s not an easily readable PDF because they’re scans of typewritten ‘cause he’s old content.

[00:10:36] So the problem is I think a lot of people didn’t wanna spend the tokens to go through all, all of it, and I, I did.

[00:10:44] Malcolm Collins: Spend the token. I love that that’s what we do. Not intern power, not anything like

[00:10:47] Simone Collins: that. Yeah, no, no, not, like, take the time to fricking read it. I mean, I read-

[00:10:51] Malcolm Collins: We spend the tokens for you. Yeah.

[00:10:54] Simone Collins: Yes, dear listener. This is how much- ... we care about you. And also I was curious. So I, I’m gonna read what I pulled that is relevant to it, and I mean, God bless AI for all this, honestly, because if I were just reading this page for page, I would miss things. I would miss things all the fricking time, ‘cause you get so bored going through all those pages.

[00:11:12] Yeah. How many things have been missed in legislation, in legal documents because people were just pouring over it using their eyes instead of machine eyes, which are way more sharp. So I just love that we’re able to precisely go into long documents like these, and if you’re willing to pay for the tokens, you know, getting what you need.

[00:11:28] So anyway, in terms of what Dr. Fauci wrote about the origins of the COVID-19 virus- whether he entertains the idea of it being a lab leak on January 26th in 2020. This was, like, when we were still traveling internationally, by the way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We were in Peru at this time. My dad and his girlfriend had gotten super sick.

[00:11:47] We didn’t know what it was. It turned out to be COVID probably, almost certainly, ‘cause he almost died. Right? So, like, COVID’s spreading. People are like, “Huh, what’s this weird thing?” And, and, you know, here’s, here’s his first kind of- [00:12:00] discussion of it. Well, a- along these lines in terms of origin. So he wrote about the Wuhan wet market.

[00:12:07] Quote, “It now appears using epi data and genomic data that the first infection was in early December and was not connected to the market... Now we know the market was not the source, it was the amplifier. Having said that, somewhere the virus jumped from animals to humans.” End quote. The more striking entries came from January 31st.

[00:12:28] Malcolm Collins: That’s pretty striking as well, that he’s saying, “We know it was something around the market. I, I feel uncomfortable saying whatever this could be, but it was not the market itself.”

[00:12:39] Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, he did write, “Somewhere it jumped from animals to humans.” I think he, the first thing he jumps to is this came from an animal.

[00:12:46] But again, on, on January 1st, so just a couple days later he, he describes a call from Wellcome Trust director Jeremy Farrar, conferenced with the evolutionary biologist Christian Anderson, who comes in a lot in this diary. Quote, “There have been conspiracy theories that the virus was given gain of function by inserted mutations and deliberately or accidentally released in Wuhan...

[00:13:12] The people on the phone felt the mutations around the furin cleavage site of the spike protein could not have occurred naturally, since it would require an evolutionary jump that they found nowhere else in bat nowhere in bat isolates. They bring up the possibility that this could have been deliberately inserted and either accidentally released or deliberately released by a crazy person in the lab, the former being the most likely.”

[00:13:40] Which to me sounds pretty damning.

[00:13:42] Malcolm Collins: Well, okay, but he, he, sorry, he starts it by saying conspiracy theorists, but then he refers to somebody else. Yeah. Who is he referring to? To the

[00:13:51] Simone Collins: evolutionary biologist Christian Anderson, and this person, I think later is like, “Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It, it was. It, it w- it came from animals.”

[00:13:59] But this is where it just gets kind of shady for me. So- ‘Cause he’s

[00:14:03] Malcolm Collins: saying a, an authoritative source that he trusts

[00:14:06] Simone Collins: said- Yeah, that he trusts and later uses to confirm, well, this is why it wasn’t a lab leak, leak. Well, the first thing this person said was, “I think this is a lab leak.” So, but-

[00:14:16] Malcolm Collins: and his...

[00:14:18] Read the first part of that again. He d- he, he frames it as he first brings it up as a conspiracy theory.

[00:14:24] Simone Collins: Which I think, so that, that’s, I feel like I’m overthinking this maybe, but kind- I, I, if, if I were c- seriously concerned that I contributed to something around Wuhan that might have caused this- I would be very concerned about it, but I would never write anything indicating that that could possibly happen.

[00:14:46] Malcolm Collins: And- Yeah, he d- he’s basically writing conspiracy theorists think, here’s an authoritative source I use and trust elsewhere He

[00:14:53] Simone Collins: wrote, he wrote, “There have been conspiracy theories that the virus was given gain-of-function by inserted mutations and deliberately or accidentally released in Wuhan... The people on the phone felt the mutations around the furin cleavage site of the spike protein could not have occurred naturally, since it did not require an evolutionary jump that they found nowhere in bat isolates.”

[00:15:12] The

[00:15:12] Malcolm Collins: people on the phone. Who’s the people on the phone?

[00:15:15] Simone Collins: But the evolutionary biologist Kristian Andersen, and also- Okay ... Wellcome Trust director Jeremy Farrar. But Kristian Andersen comes up later. We’ll go, we’ll go through some more quotes, okay? We’re sort of-

[00:15:23] Malcolm Collins: Okay, but basically everyone authoritative is telling him, and he immediately goes to this framing it as a conspiracy theorist.

[00:15:30] Which is very interesting, that he never seriously at least in writing, and I guess this would make sense if he understood the implications of this, was willing to consider this idea despite all of the evidence that he had access to at this point. Yeah. For the first

[00:15:41] Simone Collins: time he’s like, “It’s a conspiracy.

[00:15:43] It’s not, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.” On February 1st, 2020, Fauci convened a larger group of virologists, including Andersen from that previous call. Also Holmes, Drosten, Fauquier, Gary, or yeah, Gary Rambaut and others to debate [00:16:00] the subject. His notes are unambiguous that the opinion was split. Quote, “There was not total agreement about the likelihood of deliberate insertion.

[00:16:09] Ron Fauquier,” or Faucier, “said he was sure that this could occur naturally. Also Christian Drosten was with Ron. The rest felt deliberate insertion was possible.” So it’s interesting, like again, this is where I’m reading, maybe I’m reading too much into it, but I’m like, well, why is he so, so hopeful about, like, every piece of evidence?

[00:16:29] Every, every time people lean on the animal thing, the animal origin He, he writes more about it

[00:16:35] Malcolm Collins: Well, n- but hold on. Eh, y- you’ve gotta keep it... So this is when he and the CDC is still framing lab leak as a as a conspiracy. He has a debate of presumably the experts- Uh-huh ... and it appears that only two of the experts in the debate thought it could occur naturally.

[00:16:52] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:53] Malcolm Collins: What’s also very interesting is the way that he frames that.

[00:16:55] Simone Collins: He, and he names them. And, and keep in mind, I, I asked very explicitly for notes about him talking about gain-of-function origins. So there is a very deliberate absence of the entertainment of gain-of-function origins, at least in these written notes.

[00:17:12] Malcolm Collins: No, no, hold on. This isn’t, this is a... He was concerned enough about this that he put together a large group of experts. The large group of experts, you need to look at what is being said- Mm ... because you are getting confused about the way that he’s reframing it, okay? Okay- So

[00:17:27] Simone Collins: if you- ... but get closer to your mic ‘cause you’re, you’re, you’re-

[00:17:29] Malcolm Collins: If you look at the way that he frames the words, right?

[00:17:33] He says there’s a group of people, there is a disagreement. Mm-hmm. Right? Now, he, he attempts to frame the disagreement as if it’s a 50/50 disagreement, but we know it’s a group of experts for a debate, I would assume at least eight people.

[00:17:45] Simone Collins: Well, so one, two, three, four, five, six, and others.

[00:17:50] Malcolm Collins: And others, so- So

[00:17:51] Simone Collins: more than six

[00:17:52] Malcolm Collins: more than six. So, so- So that’s why I say eight to 12 people maybe. Only two of the eight to 12 people thought, and notice the words here, not that it definitely wasn’t a lab leak, that it was even possible that it wasn’t a lab leak. That is what the, that is the es- Yes,

[00:18:10] Simone Collins: that he was sure that this could occur naturally.

[00:18:14] Right. Not that he was certain it wasn’t a lab leak. Yeah. Was sure that it could occur naturally.

[00:18:18] Malcolm Collins: Sure. Yeah ... th- this, and, and what that implies, and he doesn’t write it this way- He’s looking for- ... because he hides, like, oh, it could be a lab leak, is that everyone else, so presumably the vast majority, 80 to 90% of the other experts they had in the early days-

[00:18:31] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm

[00:18:32] Malcolm Collins: thought it literally was impossible that it couldn’t have been a lab leak.

[00:18:37] Mm.

[00:18:38] That is the majority opinion around him, and he is- twisting in the way, like I don’t know if you guys have ever talked to like an annoying boomer or like a histionic person or whatever- ... where you can go in a room and like clea- it’s clear that no one disagrees with them- Uh-huh

[00:18:53] and, or agrees with them. And they leave the room, and they’re like, “Well, one person agreed with me, so it’s really more of a 50/50 thing.” You’re just like-

[00:19:01] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:19:01] Malcolm Collins: What are you, what did you hear in there, right? Like,

[00:19:06] Simone Collins: ... Mr. Fauci- Keep in mind, this, this is a, a man of, of mature age who collects cacti in his home office, so yeah, he’s not like of the younger generations.

[00:19:13] Malcolm Collins: Well, no, but there’s like a specific boomer mindset where they’re like super delusional about stuff like this sometimes. And like it is on full display here. I mean, I get the impression that he really walked out of a debate where almost no one agreed with his position, and the only two who did only believed it was possible.

[00:19:30] And note here, even if you’re not a researcher, okay, even if you’re not a a, a, like... It- it’s funny that all of the data he has here isn’t the circumstantial data. Like, he’s not even considering that. Mm-hmm. What he’s looking at is data that you the public likely were unaware of, that it appears biologically impossible- Mm-hmm

[00:19:51] in the minds of the

[00:19:53] Simone Collins: majority- Yeah, like for certain cleavage sites, yeah.

[00:19:55] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. He’s not doing the Jon Stewart thing here- Mm ... where it’s [00:20:00] like, and I’ll put this, the scene here, you know, there, there was a Wuhan gain-of-function COVID lab right next to the wet market. Right?

[00:20:09] Speaker 23: the suffering of this pandemic which was more than likely caused by science.

[00:20:16] , no,

[00:20:17] Speaker 22: no, no, no,

[00:20:18] Speaker 23: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not listen, listen.

[00:20:22] But what

[00:20:23] Speaker 22: do you, what what, what, what do you mean by that? Do you mean like, perhaps there’s, there’s a chance that this was created in a lab. I’d love to hear.

[00:20:27] Speaker 23: A novel respiratory coronavirus overtaking Wuhan, China. What do we do? Oh, you know who we could ask? The Wuhan Novel Respiratory Coronavirus Lab. The disease is the same name as the lab.

[00:20:44] And then they ask the scientists, wait a minute. You work at the Wuhan Respiratory Coronavirus Lab. How did this happen? And they’re like, Mmm, a pangolin kissed a turtle. And you’re like, No! If you look at the name,

[00:21:00] show me your business card. Oh, I work at the Coronavirus lab in Wuhan. Oh, because there’s a coronavirus loose in Wuhan. How did that happen? Maybe a bat flew into the cloaca of a turkey and now we all have coronavirus. Like, come on.

[00:21:21] Okay, okay. Wait a second. Wait a second. What about this? What about this? Listen to this. Wait a second. All right. John. Oh my god. Oh my god. There’s been an outbreak of chocolatey goodness near Hershey, Pennsylvania. What do you think happened? Like, oh, I don’t know, maybe something. Maybe it’s a cocoa bean or it’s the f ing chocolate factory.

[00:21:46] Maybe that’s it.

[00:21:47] Speaker 22: That could that could very well be and Anthony Fauci and Francis Collins and NIH have said like it should definitely be investigated.

[00:21:53] Speaker 23: Stop with the. Logic and people and things. The name

[00:21:57] Speaker 22: of the disease Wait a second, wait a second Is all over the building Wait a second, but it could be possible, you could be right It could be possible that they have The lab in Wuhan To study the novel coronavirus Diseases because of the bat population there.

[00:22:14] Sure, no. I understand.

[00:22:15] Speaker 23: It’s the only place to find bats oh, wait. Austin, Texas has thousands of them that fly out of a cave every night. . Is there a coronavirus, an Austin coronavirus?

[00:22:24] No, it doesn’t seem to be an Austin coronavirus.

[00:22:28] Malcolm Collins: You know, like, he’s, he’s not, he’s not pointing out just the sheer insanity that there is one major gain-of-function COVID lab like on Earth.

[00:22:38] Mm. And it happens to be right next to where this happened.

[00:22:41] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:42] Malcolm Collins: The-

[00:22:42] Simone Collins: And well, also, I don’t know if I included these quotes. I, I might have included them in my notes, but there, there were also multiple instances of him getting extremely mad at people who brought up the gain-of-function stuff in media.

[00:22:54] Like, he was just so angry about it.

[00:22:56] Malcolm Collins: Well, because everyone would immediately, as soon as they ask that, it’s then who funded that? Who started that research, Mr. Fauci?

[00:23:03] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:23:03] Malcolm Collins: And then people would realize it was our tax dollars that he redirected to something. Yeah. Like, seriously, the level of hiding this and the cover-up of what apparently from the li- notes he knew from the beginning or should have known if he wasn’t actively attempting to cover it up given the data he had access to, Is just astonishing.

[00:23:23] Like-

[00:23:23] Simone Collins: Anyway, l- let’s keep going though. There’s, there’s a lot here. Okay, go. Go, go, go ... so maybe I’ll give you more fodder. Later in 2020, and then throughout 2022, he becomes increasingly confident that it, it’s just natural in, in origin, and he’s extremely dismissive of the lab leak camp. So looking back on June 7th, 2021, he reinstated that he wasn’t the one who raised the lab leak possibility.

[00:23:46] The scientists briefed him. Quote, “I was briefed by them,” dot, dot, dot. “After a considerable amount of discussion, about half of the people felt this was a possibility was possibly a constructed virus, and the other half were convinced,” this is exactly what you were saying. [00:24:00] Yeah. “The other half were convinced this was a natural occurrence.

[00:24:03] A few weeks later, Christian Anderson got together with Bob Garry and Andrew R- Rambaut, and they came to the conclusion that... this was a natural occurrence.” On May 23rd, 2021, after Anderson told him the NIH-funded Wuhan work wasn’t gain of function, Fauci wrote he felt, quote, “Much better now that he is in total support of what I have been saying.”

[00:24:28] Malcolm Collins: I, it’s, it’s also very clear, and you can tell the environment he’s creating, where at first everyone is saying this was obviously a lab leak. Mm. It, like, couldn’t even biologically not be a lab leak. Take all of the other stuff aside, like the Wuhan- Mm-hmm ... bat lab in Wuhan next to where the... Take all that aside that, that he was creating an environment where agreeing with him on this point is what you needed to do to move up.

[00:24:51] Simone Collins: And what- Well, and keep in mind, Malcolm, Chris- Christian Anderson, the guy who just said he changed his mind, basically was the guy in that first quote I gave you, the very earliest discussion. Yeah, that

[00:24:58] Malcolm Collins: said it’s impossible

[00:25:00] Simone Collins: Yeah, but it could come out later

[00:25:00] Malcolm Collins: And, and no, what, what’s very interesting about the he changed his mind is when this scientist tells him it’s impossible, he explains exactly how it’s impossible.

[00:25:12] He’s like- Yeah ... look, it’s at this bend point right here. That just can’t happen. It, it has never once before happened in any bat population ever studied. And then when he’s like, “Oh, no, it is possible,” he doesn’t give a reason as to why he went back on that or why he changed his mind or anything like that.

[00:25:28] Simone Collins: Well, no, he said that the NIH-funded Wuhan work wasn’t gain-of-function. Oh, God. Actually, no, that’s that’s really bad. So, y- it’s gonna come out later but I don’t wanna spoil it, and we’ll, we’ll just get to that. But anyway, that, that’s actually not very impressive wording because you’ll see when I get to

[00:25:46] Malcolm Collins: that in the- So the evidence that the guy gave to him- Yeah

[00:25:48] for it not being gain-of-function is that the lab wasn’t... So first of all, he says it’s biologically impossible it’s not gain-of-function. Mm-hmm. Then he goes to him and tells him, well, the lab there wasn’t doing gain of, which now we know isn’t true wasn’t doing gain-of-function research. Yeah, you’ll

[00:26:03] Simone Collins: see.

[00:26:04] You’ll see.

[00:26:04] Malcolm Collins: And for that reason, it couldn’t have been gain-of-function when Fauci himself knows and the reason he’s so terrified is he knows the lab is doing gain-of-function research. So

[00:26:15] Simone Collins: it looks like- Well, well, I mean, well, I’ll, I’ll, per, per your opinion. We’re, we’re gonna get there. Go. I wanna, I wanna It

[00:26:19] Malcolm Collins: looks like he’s just- Let’s keep going

[00:26:20] basically pressuring other scientists into-

[00:26:22] Simone Collins: It does look like

[00:26:23] Malcolm Collins: that. It does look like that.

[00:26:26] Simone Collins: Anyway. Okay the most revealing entry is July 7th of 2021, so this is well after. You know, this is when we’re all, like, normalized to the pandemic, in which he describes a National Security Council briefing with Beth Cameron and Mahir Bittar.

[00:26:40] It became, quote, “It became clear that the FBI has no idea what they’re talking about since they are convinced that the origin of COVID-19 is from a laboratory leak. The reasons that they give do not make any sense. In contrast, the NSA gives some reasonable hypotheses, leaning heavily toward a natural jump of species.

[00:26:59] I emphasize- ... that I keep an open mind about the possibility of a lab leak. However, in this regard, I emphasize that just because two alternatives are possible, that does not mean they are equally probable” There’s a lot of bias in that. I mean, I know- What

[00:27:13] Malcolm Collins: was the, sorry, what was the scenario or what was the group that said-

[00:27:18] Simone Collins: So the FBI were-

[00:27:20] Malcolm Collins: The FBI told him.

[00:27:21] So he’s got the biologists telling him, he’s got the FBI telling him.

[00:27:24] Simone Collins: Yeah. Anyway, he’s mad at the FBI for that. When the US Intelligence Community’s origins report came out in late August 2021, he noted, quote, “They still left open the possibility that it could be a lab leak. However, more elements of the intelligence community felt that it was a natural occurrence compared to the single component, FBI,

[00:27:43] Malcolm Collins: those...

[00:27:45] Simone Collins: If it wasn’t for those meddling...” Anyway, who seemed to feel strongly that it was a lab leak, although i- this is based on no data at all.

[00:27:58] Okay, I continue. By July [00:28:00] 2022, his private tone toward lab leak, lab leak proponents had hardened further. At a social event, he wrote that Fox News anchor Bret Baier, quote, “Finally admitted that the two recent science papers by Worobey, Anderson, Rasmussen, et al, convince him that the lab leak theory is really not true.”

[00:28:20] End quote. T- throughout 2021 and 2022, he repeatedly vents about congressional credits especially critics, especially Ran- Senator Rand Paul, who released his secret diaries with the pink theme. Uh-oh. Over gain-of-function funding, at one point writing the accusations were, quote, “Totally mind-boggling how they are distorting,” quote end quote, the record.

[00:28:43] So in short, the- At

[00:28:44] Malcolm Collins: this point it seems he f- he fully believed, like, he had, he had convinced himself, right? Like-

[00:28:49] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, no, yeah, he, he had convinced himself, he was extr- but he, like, the... I think for me, what, what makes me feel so, like, uns- uncertain about it is why would you get so angry if you were so confident that it wasn’t a lab leak, you know?

[00:29:08] Like, I just feel like, look, they’re concerned about it, I get it, you know, we- we’ll have to collect more information. I don’t know. I don’t know. Anyway let’s see what he says about gain-of-function research, and I thought this was also pretty interesting. Across the diary, gain-of-function comes up constantly from spring 2021 onward, but almost always in the context of Republican senators and outline scient- out- outside scientists accusing NIAID of funding gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and they claim that that caused the pandemic.

[00:29:45] And Fauci’s own position stays super consistent throughout all this, that he, he holds that N-I-A-I-D and their EcoHealth Alliance subaward funded work that some experts call gain-of-function under a loose definition, but it did not meet the governance official regulatory definition known as or, I guess, categorized as- What?

[00:30:09] Malcolm Collins: He’s like, “

[00:30:09] Simone Collins: Well,

[00:30:09] Malcolm Collins: it, it

[00:30:10] Simone Collins: only- P3CO. So it didn’t meet P3CO standards, and critically, the viruses studied could not have evolved into SARS-CoV-2. So on May 19th, 2021, he wrote, quote, “One of the real problems is that people are conflating whether or not we approved gain-of-function research for Wuhan and the possibility that the Chinese created SARS-CoV-2 in the laboratory.

[00:30:35] Whether or not one agrees as to the conduct of gain-of-function research, when you look at the bat viruses that was studied under the grant and compare the genetic sequences with CARS, with SARS-CoV-2, it becomes clear that SARS-CoV-2 could not have come from the bat viruses associated with the grant that was funded.”

[00:30:54] So that’s

[00:30:55] Malcolm Collins: one thing he says. So what’s, what’s interesting here is he is... First of all, that this is the craziest thing I have ever heard. It’s

[00:31:03] Simone Collins: like- That’s it. That’s what, that was, that’s what I was teasing, ‘cause he’s like, “Well, it’s not gain-of-function per this definition.” And, and then he’s like, “Well, but I mean, so there was gain-of-function.”

[00:31:11] But like, it It’s

[00:31:13] Malcolm Collins: like you catch the mad scientist who’s, like, making, like, genetic abomination, like, monster things Mm-hmm And he’s like, “Well, yeah. I mean, I understand they could tear a person apart, but, like, they don’t technically count as genetic abomination monsters because y- you could see they don’t fit the, the 50 points in this government document.”

[00:31:34] Yeah,

[00:31:35] exactly.

[00:31:35] It’s like, that has nothing to do with whether or not they are the things running around ripping apart people- Exactly ... whether or not they meet the government document’s requirement for gain of function. Yeah, speaking, so more on

[00:31:46] Simone Collins: that. Describing the October 21st to 23rd, 2021 controversy over a late EcoHealth progress report showing mice getting sicker in their study, he wrote on October 23rd, quote, “Larry [00:32:00] made it very clear that the research did not rise to the scrutiny of P3CO. In other words, by our definition, it was not gain of function.”

[00:32:09] That, by our definition caveat, is the crux of his position, basically. Yeah,

[00:32:13] Malcolm Collins: but they were, but then he’s like, “But they were trying to make the virus more deadly and virulent. They just weren’t doing it by, like, HIPAA 3 compliant standards or something.”

[00:32:23] Simone Collins: Yeah. No, that, that’s really his argument here. Like, internally with himself is like, “Well, but, like, technically not.”

[00:32:29] And his crux language-

[00:32:30] Malcolm Collins: And it’s the argument that the people around him, what’s even more fascinating is the people around him, the scientists who are around him that initially said, “Biologically, this has to be gain of function research,” he, who then argued later it wasn’t, are using this same very flimsy argument.

[00:32:46] Mm-hmm. That technically, this lab wasn’t doing gain of function research.

[00:32:49] Simone Collins: Yeah. And in public he was generally pretty- Like, level-headed. Perhaps so as to not raise suspicion or show, like, how triggered he was by all this. But you can see by this one entry that he wrote about this scientist named Richard Ebright how actually angry he was about this, like, people making those arguments.

[00:33:11] Quote, “Richard Ebright, with his gain-of-function obsession, is a total a*****e who’s pushing his theory because he wants to be somebody,” end quote. He added, “I am terribly,” quote, “I am terribly disappointed with Jesse Bloom and David Relman for doing somewhat of the same thing... I believe that in some respects they are pushing for and even hoping that this was a lab leak, which the molecular analysis of the viruses...

[00:33:38] clearly indicate that it was molecularly impossible for the viruses under the auspices of the NIH grant to have been manipulated into or evolved into SARS-CoV-2.” I almost wonder, like, he’s being very specific about, like, the grant, but maybe he realizes that the lab was working on additional things alongside that grant.

[00:33:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the,

[00:33:56] Simone Collins: the, like- And he’s like, “Well, the grant in the lab.”

[00:33:58] Malcolm Collins: That’s, his argument is spectacularly bad. So- Mm-hmm ... and, and you exactly caught the weakness in his argument. The COVID lab in Wuhan clearly was not only working on things on this one grant that he personally was tied to.

[00:34:15] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:34:15] Malcolm Collins: They certainly would have had...

[00:34:16] I would be very surprised if that was more than 5% of their funding or work, right? Like, that’s not really the way labs work. I know this as somebody who used to work at a research lab that got grants, right? The fact that he is refusing to look at any of the other gain-of-function research that the lab is doing that would have ancillary been made possible.

[00:34:36] So you, you get a grant, and you use the grant to focus on, you know, like, the one thing, but then you’re still funding the facilities, the staff, everything like that. Ancillary, he would have funded this other stuff. Him focusing, like- Any person who’s being logical and understands how science labs works would know it’s not an open-shut case to say this one funded grant definitely didn’t lead to it.

[00:35:01] And I’m even willing to say maybe that one funded grant didn’t lead to it, right? But that doesn’t, that doesn’t... What? That’s so insanely stupid. Yeah. And, and the, the anger, you can see that he takes it very personally because he knows, I think he’s internalized the truth. If it’s a lab leak, it’s his fault.

[00:35:22] And his fault over something that he had been criticized for before this, which was funding gain-of-function research, which like, the EA community’s largely against, most of the, like, edgy, like, very informed science people that I know generally are against. I don’t even know, like, who’s doing it anymore, right?

[00:35:38] Like, they’re like, “Well, it’s to learn to, you know, better defend against, you know,” it doesn’t-

[00:35:42] Simone Collins: I’m sure terrorists are doing it ‘cause it’s you

[00:35:45] Malcolm Collins: Not really. It’s not the easiest way to do terrorism. Mm-hmm. There’s easier ways to... I don’t wanna go over, I, I think I’ve gone over it on weekend episodes and stuff like that.

[00:35:54] Simone Collins: I

[00:35:55] Malcolm Collins: think so, yeah. There’s easier ways and cheaper ways to create incredibly virulent [00:36:00] diseases. Gain-of-function research, it’s just, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s w- it’s weird that he decided to fund this in the first place. It’s weird he decided to fund it in China in the first place. Perhaps the only thing we have to thank him for is COVID dramatically actually, like geopolitically speaking, COVID was phenomenal for the United States.

[00:36:20] Yeah. It completely fucked up China. And, and China will likely never recover from what happened during COVID. Y- shutting down your ports when you are a parts maker in part of an international supply chain makes it so that nobody because i- if one port, part is, you know, two months late, the whole product is two months late, or a year late or two years late.

[00:36:42] Who’s gonna manufacture there in the future, right? Like, th- this isn’t just a zero COVID thing, which we don’t know how many people that killed when you look at modern population statistics in China. You look at their salt consumption, you look at their... we have another episode on this. COVID may have killed a lot more of the Chinese population than the government is, is saying.

[00:36:58] A- and as well because they refused to use the US vaccine, and they used their own basically fake vaccine that didn’t really work. It, just, like, at every stage. I guess in that respect, he’s done America a favor. But like, it’s- It’s not a favor that was worth it in terms of the human capital cost.

[00:37:14] Like, even ruthless Malcolm is like, “No, that, that one was a little too high, Mr. Fauci.” But to do it in China, just, like, everything around this was really shady. And I think here he’s sort of backing himself into, like, a, “Oh my God, what’s gonna be my legacy if this becomes the mainstream narrative?”

[00:37:32] And I think we’re moving to a place where it has become the mainstream narrative because, like, I... Th- and I, I think it also is one of the narratives that broke the media’s back and is why people stopped trusting the media. Because it was just so obvious from this Jon Stewart thing, and the- my favorite thing about the Jon Stewart speech around this is Stephen Colbert being like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no, you’re not allowed to have these thoughts.

[00:37:53] You’re not allowed to say these things. It’s not the approved thought.”

[00:37:58] Simone Collins: For real, yeah. So another thing, that, that’s kind of, those are the most important quotes about gain-of-function research, the origins and everything. I think they speak for themselves. I was also really curious to see what was happening behind the scenes with masking policy, because that was one of the really big things that I think broke a lot of people’s trust in the government.

[00:38:18] When at first people were told, “Don’t mask, don’t do it. Look, it’s not even that effective. It’s not, what is it with, it’s not gonna help you very much.” And then suddenly, “You have to wear a mask now. Do not leave home without a mask. It is illegal to be without a mask. We must shout you down if you don’t have a mask.”

[00:38:33] You know, like, the, it became one of those... I think people are forgetting just-

[00:38:37] Malcolm Collins: I, I think they’re forgetting, no- one, how shamed you were for saying you should wear a mask to begin with- Yeah ... by the liberal elite.

[00:38:44] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:38:44] Malcolm Collins: And then the positions just flipped.

[00:38:47] Simone Collins: Yeah, and the whiplash, I think, for a lot of people was like, hold on, wait, so one of these two times, if not both, you are lying to me.

[00:38:55] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I’m not fooling- Like, demonstrably lying. You’re like, “All the scientists agree. It’s been decided. Only a crazy righto...” You know there’s still progressives who, like, wear masks all the time?

[00:39:05] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:39:06] Malcolm Collins: Because of COVID. Like, the, the, the one where, like, there’s the funny story about the, the couple who broke up, I think it was, like, last year, because one of them decided to stop wearing a mask all the time in, in, in their house.

[00:39:17] Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean, some, yeah, some people sort of developed COVID psychosis. Anyway, though, let’s so what does he say? In terms of i- the, the, the, the stage one, where it was like, “No everyone, please do not wear a mask,” both in his own words and in press clippings he pasted into the diary. This is such a girl’s diary.

[00:39:36] I love it.

[00:39:37] Malcolm Collins: By the way, when you do the title card for this, you absolutely have to have

[00:39:39] Simone Collins: him- Oh, look at your WhatsApp.

[00:39:40] Malcolm Collins: The Dr. Fauci diary. No, you did it wrong. You, you have to have him writing something like, so you can see what he’s writing. Something like, “Oops. Killed, killed a bunch of people.”

[00:39:55] Simone Collins: God.

[00:39:55] Oh.

[00:39:58] Malcolm Collins: Oopsie. You gotta have him writing-

[00:39:59] Simone Collins: What are you going to [00:40:00] do? Like, ‘cause you need his face facing the camera. What, do you have him, like, writing

[00:40:04] Malcolm Collins: like this?

[00:40:04] You have the camera looking from, like, the si- Come on, Simone. Oh, come on.

[00:40:07] Simone Collins: Fi- well, let’s see what you can do, Mr. AI genius.

[00:40:11] Malcolm Collins: I will. I, I am an AI genius. I am

[00:40:13] Simone Collins: really happy with how that came out. Anyway.

[00:40:15] Malcolm Collins: By the way, on RFAB now, on all the loading pages- This is so cute ... it now has, it, cyberpunk cat girl animations for the loading- Yeah

[00:40:22] it icons. It’s so cool. And it’s really fun, but the thing is, is I also made it so that anyone using our API can, can make these really easily. What I did to make these, which was so cool, is again, using stolen leaflet tech like- Yes ... like, I I found the leaflet tech in the in the ruins. Mm. And then I was able to reverse engineer, what the leaflet tech allowed me to do was to remove the background of video creations, and then using the removed background video creations, I could create simple loop cycles, again, using leaflet tech- Mm-hmm ... to very easily, with any A- AI you have on any project you have, create any sort of animation you want as you’re loading- They

[00:40:58] Simone Collins: are so cute.

[00:40:59] It brings a loading screen to a whole new level. I love it. I love it. It’s, it’s a, it’s, it’s a, it’s inspired. And

[00:41:05] Malcolm Collins: every load, 70 unique loads, totally unique animations.

[00:41:10] Simone Collins: Yeah. I, I, I’m so impressed. Even, y- you have separate image loading animations for images within adventures, and images on just the image generation.

[00:41:19] I was like, “Oh my gosh, that, that level of attention to detail.” Anyway. Yeah. Love though. Love it. So anyway so in his clippings the initial don’t wear masks guidance was driven by a PPE shortage, which is sort of made clear. A, a PPE shortage for healthcare workers, not a scientific judgment that masks were ineffective.

[00:41:38] And he later acknowledges, somewhat sheepishly, that the messaging went too far. So he does realize the mistake, and I appreciate that. Around March 31st to April 1st, 2020, as the White House debated universal masking, Fauci wrote plainly, “Big issue today is whether we should be recommending masks for everyone.

[00:41:56] We probably were too strong in saying masks do not work. I mentioned this on CNN, Scudo, this AM.” Then this is

[00:42:07] Malcolm Collins: the most direct private acknowledgement- Well, so what I wanna point out is what he’s admitting here is they said masks don’t work. Yeah. And strongly. Yeah. They didn’t say, they didn’t say, “You shouldn’t use masks so healthcare workers can get more.”

[00:42:19] Yeah. They lied to everyone for what they thought was, was the best interest at the time. Which I think also shows that his and his entire department was willing to lie and was totally comfortable lying, and it’s just sort of part of who he is.

[00:42:34] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, and like, he doesn’t, like, he doesn’t express regret or he doesn’t question his tactic.

[00:42:41] Just wrote, quote, “We probably were too strong in saying masks do not work.” End quote. Like, that is He, he knew that the shortage was driven by a need for PPE for essential medical workers. He also knew that N95s were more effective. He also said to the public that masks did not work, and admitted that in his writing, so...

[00:43:05] And, and knew that he did that, and then felt bad about going too strong on that because it was gonna be hard. “Well, it’s ‘cause I basically, I gaslit them, and now I have to gaslip in the- li- light them in the other direction.” And then I wanted to know also what he wrote about the efficacy, or really lack thereof, of homemade cloth masks later in the pandemic when the US government publicly mandated mask mandates.

[00:43:24] The clearest mask quality entry is actually about upgrading protection, not questioning cloth masks. Fauci wrote, quote, “CDC is starting to do practical things that I have actually been pushing for some time. For example, wearing two masks could be better than just one. They did a dummy-” Oh, my

[00:43:41] Malcolm Collins: God ...

[00:43:42] Simone Collins: that showed that a cloth mask over a surgical mask actually gives more complete fit and keeps out aerosols.”

[00:43:49] This, end quote. This, this frames the cloth masks as a useful component for a better-fitting combination, but not as ineffective on their own. I mean, I’m sure he knew that they were ineffective on their own, he just [00:44:00] didn’t bother to write about it. After Trump’s COVID diagnosis, Fauci noted the president, quote, “Wore a cloth mask instead of a N95, and press criticized him for endangering the Secret Service who were in the car,” end quote.

[00:44:13] This is during his, his drive-by wave for supporters. And he clearly acknowledges in that statement that N95s are the superior choice for someone who’s actively infectious. Mm. Though it’s reported as press criticism rather than Fauci’s own stated opinion. But I, I see that as more just him tacitly acknowledging that that’s a universal truth that we all understand.

[00:44:34] Yeah. Or at least many of us understood. So okay, in terms of vaccines did he express any concern or hesitancy about the vaccines? I wanted to know, and... Not, not really. On December 17th, 2020, discussing UK data with Chris Whitty and, and Patrick Vallance, quote, “The UK is seeing more than just two instances of anaphylactic reactions to the mRNA vaccine of Pfizer,” end quote.

[00:44:59] He was tracking the signal closely even before the US rollout began, so he knew that there were some issues with the vaccine. On April 12th, 2021, quote, “Got a call at 10:00 PM from Rochelle Walensky that the CDC and FDA have called a pause of the J&J vaccine due to six cases, all women, ages 18 to 48, of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis.

[00:45:21] I-” Died. Well, he probably wrote I should read. Three... Oh, oh, one died. Yeah, he meant to write one died. One died, three hospitalized, two in ICU, two discharged. The next day he noted, quote, “Obviously, this is a big deal even though it is-” Mm ... “ah, very rare,” end quote. So he knew it was an issue. I, I think, I don’t remember him playing it up that much as an issue in the public, but I understand why he couldn’t.

[00:45:50] Yeah ... but an Oxford-affiliated study claimed mRNA vaccines caused more thrombosis than AstraZeneca’s, vaccine, he wrote on April 14th, 2021, quote, “Obviously BS. They did not look for thrombocytopenia, and so the observation is invalid. Not surprising from the Oxford Group since their vaccine is in trouble, and I would not be surprised if they are trying to disparage the other vaccines.”

[00:46:19] End quote. So he, he’s, he’s willing to publicly reject safety claims he judged met- methodologically weak because he wanted to see motivated reasoning by a

[00:46:29] Malcolm Collins: competing- Yeah. It’s so interesting that he looks at f- with, with no skepticism at his own side, at his own positions, ever.

[00:46:35] Simone Collins: Truly. Yeah, yeah,

[00:46:36] Malcolm Collins: yeah.

[00:46:37] There’s the small amount of- Ever does he ever treat anything with a degree of skepticism. Yeah. The, he, he might have been the single worst person on Earth for a job like this. Oh,

[00:46:45] Simone Collins: no. Th- there, you know- There’s

[00:46:46] Malcolm Collins: worse. Okay, yeah, I guess. But, like, a- actually, no, if he had just been stupid, it would’ve been better because then you could have y- you know, people would’ve noticed or he, y- he might not have been as effective in his initial coverup.

[00:46:59] Which I, I mean, he d- probably did more for the destruction of people’s trust in the media than anyone else, than any other single human being.

[00:47:07] Simone Collins: So remember how young men were, like, dropping dead from the vaccines? Yeah. Which, I mean, th- this was a known genuine safety risk. Repeatedly through August through November of 2021, he documented internal FDA and CDC debate over booster and pediatric authorization being slowed by, quote, “The risk of myocarditis balanced against the risk of their winding up in the hospital as a result of COVID.”

[00:47:33] End quote. Interestingly, his own position was less cautious than the regulators. On November 9th, 2021, he wrote that he was, quote, “Pushing hard,” end quote, for boosting everyone despite the FDA and AI- or ACIP’s myocarditis concerns, saying he was, quote, “Clearly at odds with the conservative approach at the ACIP,” end quote.

[00:47:54] He saw them as, quote, “Overly concerned,” end quote, not the [00:48:00] reverse. So he was much more gung ho, and he was certainly a voice in favor of pushing vaccines even when there were w- known and very well-documented health concerns.

[00:48:10] Malcolm Collins: So, so he so he admits that he knew about the health risks?

[00:48:15] Simone Collins: Yeah. But everyone knew.

[00:48:16] What, what he was talking about in these diary entries was that- They were, the, the FDA and CDC were really concerned over when and how to advise boosters, knowing that it could increase the risk of death from myocarditis, and- Mm-hmm ... he’s like, “I don’t see what the big deal is. Let’s just push it.” He was more concerned about people getting COVID.

[00:48:38] Malcolm Collins: What’s, what’s crazier, I, is I didn’t know that all ... So all of the major organizations said there is a risk of death from myocarditis, and they said, the official position, you could get your YouTube channel taken down, you could get anything. You’d just be-

[00:48:52] Simone Collins: That’s true, yeah ... nerfed

[00:48:53] Malcolm Collins: for saying what every mainstream government agency said, which is that there is a risk of death from this.

[00:49:00] Simone Collins: Oh, don’t forget, you could get nerfed for saying the name of the virus.

[00:49:06] Malcolm Collins: Which was a wild amount of censorship.

[00:49:08] Simone Collins: Yeah. That, that was incredibly ... Yeah. You just, it’s so easy to forget because it was so, it was such an aberration.

[00:49:16] Malcolm Collins: It was so authoritarian. It, it felt like living in an authoritarian regime, and I think that’s when people lost

[00:49:22] I, I mean, I think that’s when the new right was really solidified as, like, a political thing- Mm-hmm ...

[00:49:26] Simone Collins: when people were like- Yeah, because people were like, “Wait a second. I can’t trust my government?” I think a lot of people, you know, sort of with the, that scene in Indiana Jones where they’re like, “Well, it’s with top men.

[00:49:36] Top men.” Top

[00:49:37] Malcolm Collins: men. They’re like, “

[00:49:38] Simone Collins: Okay, fine. Top men are on it. It’s fine.” And then, like, during the pandemic we discover top men is, like, Anthony Fauci, and we’re like, “Oh my God.”

[00:49:46] Malcolm Collins: Oh my God. No.

[00:49:48] Simone Collins: Ah. Not good. Yeah, so anyway, he personally got the Moderna vaccine, so, good for him. Right. Did he

[00:49:57] Malcolm Collins: get boosters?

[00:49:58] Simone Collins: Yes.

[00:49:59] He, he got boosters. He’s, he love, he loves the vaccine. He’s fully vaxxed. So I’m gonna move on to the, the f- the funny things, especially, like, his experience becoming famous. ‘Cause, like, let’s all just live vicariously through him, and just, like, what a trippy experience he was having. Let’s just, like this is totally separate from lab leak hypotheses and everything else.

[00:50:22] He was super stoked about the cult of personality that grew around him. A press clip he saved describes, quote, “Prayer candles depicting Saint Fauci,” and notes, he, he notes in his diary, quote, “An Etsy seller has made prayer candles featuring Fauci depicted as an angel.” End quote. He tracked his own bobblehead sales like a hobbyist.

[00:50:43] Quote, “Bobblehead raises 10 thou- or $100,000 for American healthcare workers.” End quote. And later he noted a face palm version was released, quote, “When the original bobblehead sold out,” end quote. A bobblehead for, of himself literally facepalming which

[00:51:02] Malcolm Collins: is- What I find interesting is him as a creation of the progressive media, like you have to trust this guy unquestioningly- Mm-hmm

[00:51:08] forget any of the contradictions, forget any of the things that don’t make sense. When they pushed him, they created in the mind of a certain type of leftoid, like you have to worship this guy. They created like- Yes ... a hero

[00:51:21] Simone Collins: story around him. Like literal saint candles available on Etsy. Literal

[00:51:26] Malcolm Collins: bobblehead-

[00:51:26] Simone Collins: Yeah, no questioning,

[00:51:27] Malcolm Collins: no, you know-

[00:51:29] Simone Collins: Full on Craven Images, friends.

[00:51:30] He noted a beer named after him. Quote, “Brewery in Georgia named a beer after me, Fauci Spring.” End quote. There was also underwear merch. Quote, “Despite my being kept out of the press by the White House comms people, the media blitz about me continues strong, as well as the gimmick stuff like underwear, bikini,” that’s in parentheses, “with either my name on the front.”

[00:51:56] End quote. So he also notes socks as basically a family [00:52:00] legacy. Quote, “A few months ago, I was proudly wearing my Fauci socks when my son, King Jr., came over to join me for a walk and showed me his own Tony Fauci socks. Clearly I have taught my kids and grandkids well.” And then also the, the full hall self-listed continually quote, “Continually crazy stuff.

[00:52:22] Petition to make me, to name me Sexiest Man Alive videos. Games named after me.” These

[00:52:28] Malcolm Collins: women who just, like, listen to whatever the media says. These people, it’s so wild to me that this happened. My mom even got into this fa- craze, you know? Oh,

[00:52:38] Simone Collins: yeah. And she, you know, she’d, like, walk around cheerfully with her, her bangles doing the whole bangle sound they made.

[00:52:44] Have you gotten your Fauci ouchie?

[00:52:46] Malcolm Collins: Fauci

[00:52:47] Simone Collins: ouchie. Yeah, I, yeah, I always think of your mom when I think of Anthony Fauci, he was super stoked to meet celebrities. So he, he described Joan Baez, Beez, Joan Bees? Joan Bees? How do you say... Oh my God, I’m sorry. I’m not old, people. I am old, but I’m not that old. He said that they were, quote, “meant for each other” after finally meeting his year-long texting friend in person at the Kennedy Center Honors.

[00:53:12] He wrote their, quote, “Friendship was cemented last night as it became clear that we really were, as I said, meant for each other.” End quote. He also recounts Garth Brooks’ wife, quote, “Just gushing to meet me.” End quote. He, he wrote about Julia Roberts fangirling over him. Quote, “She put her hands in front of her mouth and said, ‘Oh my God, it’s Dr.

[00:53:36] Fauci. He’s here.’” He, Oh

[00:53:39] Malcolm Collins: my God. I am the type of person who would’ve gotten off on this too, though. I love- You, you... No, come

[00:53:43] Simone Collins: on. Like, I think a lot of people would. A lot of people would write in their pink little fluffy diary, of course this wasn’t pink and fluffy, we’re just imagining here, but let a girl dream about these things, you know?

[00:53:53] He, he noted, you know, his, his pride and excitement with Brad Pitt’s SNL cameo. Quote, “Brad Pitt plays me on Saturday Night Live and thanks me in serious tone after his skit.” End quote. There’s a, there’s a pop song that was written about- Oh my

[00:54:08] Malcolm Collins: God, Hollywood and sucking off Fauci. I know. That whole period.

[00:54:12] Simone Collins: It was a big thing. It was a big thing. Quet sorry, quote, “Betts Malone has written a song about me to the words of You Made Me Love You going viral on YouTube. Totally crazy.” Like, I’m glad he enjoyed it. You know? Like, if you’re gonna become famous, enjoy it. He, he enjoyed it. It’s super clear.

[00:54:28] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s clear.

[00:54:30] Simone Collins: So also he loved when President Obama trashed Donald Trump Jr. On his behalf. So after Fauci described Don Jr.’s Fauci Kills Puppies merchandise, Obama reportedly said that Trump Jr. is an effing moron and apologized for the language, and then added Trump Sr., quote, “Was a hopeless idiot who was a pathologic liar.”

[00:54:55] End quote. And speaking of Trump he, he

[00:54:57] Malcolm Collins: notes- This is, this is back before Trump’s first victory, right?

[00:55:01] Simone Collins: No, this was, this was, This was when Trump was in office. Trump was the president Oh, this was when

[00:55:05] Malcolm Collins: Trump was in office. During Trump- So the guy who beat his candidate is an idiot. Okay. Uh-huh. Yeah,

[00:55:09] Simone Collins: sure.

[00:55:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So his exchanges with Trump, Trump pulled him aside at one point and said, “Tony, you’re losing me millions of effing dollars.” He followed him with oddly candid mob boss style truce, quote, “You’re playing me and I’m playing you. I know you better than you think and I respect you and like you.”

[00:55:32] Which was

[00:55:32] Malcolm Collins: funny. Trump said that to him? Trump is such a f*****g awful guy. According to his diaries, yeah,

[00:55:37] Simone Collins: I think he’s telling the truth. It’s, it kind of s- That

[00:55:40] Malcolm Collins: sounds like something Trump would say

[00:55:44] Simone Collins: I know you better than you think, and I like you and I respect you.

[00:55:47] Malcolm Collins: I love the w- everyone else in this is talking like a normal human, and then Trump comes in-

[00:55:54] and it’s all of a sudden, like, this completely different way of talking. Uh-huh.

[00:55:59] Simone Collins: I got [00:56:00] you. I see what you’re up to. It’s like

[00:56:02] Malcolm Collins: you’re, when you’re reading, like, I remember we, we had the epi- the Hang On Live on the great accusations against Biden and it’s like, “And what did he say? ‘Come on, man. I thought you were into me.’”

[00:56:14] And then you immediately hear that in, like, Biden’s voice. You know, you, you’ve got to play the character if you want the office, okay?

[00:56:22] Simone Collins: So true. So true And I mean, at least, you know, Biden did play the character until old age got the best of him. So, after his own comments moved the stock market up, he mused, quote, “My remarks actually made him 4 trillion effing dollars, and so he owes me 3 trillion.”

[00:56:41] And Trump, annoyed at having to wear a mask at a Rose Garden event snapped, quote, “Who gives a poop about the press? They will try to kill us no matter what we do.” Delightful again. Even when someone hates Trump writes about Trump, it just comes off endlessly-

[00:56:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it just comes across as delightful.

[00:56:58] Simone Collins: And then he, he also has sort of expresses this occasional embarrassment, but it really comes across as a humblebrag in his diary. Quote, “Nancy Pelosi was her usual self with me. Big hug, kiss, and telling everyone how great I am. A little embarrassing.” And then he also, before signing a relief bill apparently Trump reportedly said, “Anthony, come here with us.

[00:57:20] I can’t sign this without you being here,” prompting applause from the room, and Fauci’s own note, quote, “Very embarrassing. I am not comfortable with this attention.” And-

[00:57:31] Malcolm Collins: I am not? Yes, you are.

[00:57:34] Simone Collins: Tracking bobblehead sales? I think you’re enjoying it. Near retirement, he was still humblebragging about the humility.

[00:57:41] Quote, “I’m really being somewhat embarrassed by the amount of honors that are being given to me and kudos my way. It was somewhat embarrassing since I do not like that kind of attention.” Written, he wrote this after a State Department ceremony where Secretary Blinken personally praised him. So, yeah.

[00:58:00] That’s, I’m gonna leave it at that. You guys should check out the actual original PDF, which I’ve linked in the show notes. I’ve included all my quotes here as well. It, it cost a lot of tokens to go through the document, but it’s very entertaining, and at least you can look at the first page, ‘cause I think what Senator Ron Paul’s, Rand Paul’s office did with this is a, a, a g- a work of art.

[00:58:22] I love their, their styling of the first page. It’s not over the top, you know. It’s enough to look somewhat professional, but it’s super mocking and, and it’s adorable. So, yeah. You gotta, you gotta... You wanna, you wanna see it, Malcolm? I’ll give you a link.

[00:58:35] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, sure. It’s- Send it to me.

[00:58:37] Simone Collins: But you see it says, “Townie’s diary. Do not open. Lock sign.” So great.

[00:58:44] Malcolm Collins: Oh my God.

[00:58:45] Simone Collins: Isn’t it cute? Thank

[00:58:46] Malcolm Collins: you. The, it is our people who are in the Trump administration. These are our people. I love, whenever I see stuff like this, what it reminds me is because you know when it’s like the Biden administration or whatever and you’re like- Yeah

[00:58:58] who’s really running stuff? Like Trump can only be doing so much. Yeah. Yeah. Biden can only be doing so much.

[00:59:04] Simone Collins: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:59:04] Malcolm Collins: Who’s actually operating everything? And then I see stuff like this and I’m like, oh, these people are on- Rand

[00:59:09] Simone Collins: Paul, you are doing God’s work. Yeah ... like these, these people- Like

[00:59:12] Malcolm Collins: you hired the right

[00:59:13] Simone Collins: people.

[00:59:13] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s, it’s who they hired because this stuff is not being done by Rand Paul.

[00:59:17] Simone Collins: He’s not- No, this is made by, yeah, someone on the, on the comms team or whatever. They opened up Canva. They w- they went for it and they did a good job.

[00:59:23] Malcolm Collins: Someone on the comms team went to him and said, “Hey, can I like make it look like a teenage girl’s diary?”

[00:59:30] And he was like, “Sure.” So it’s not just that he has cool people who are like on message, on brand, on the team, it’s that he’s open to these ideas. Like- Yeah ... first you gotta keep in mind the environment that an office has to be for somebody to voice this as an idea.

[00:59:50] Yeah.

[00:59:50] The, this is an official government release, can I make it look like a teenage girl wrote it?

[00:59:55] Right? Like- And then not just do they have to feel comfortable saying [01:00:00] that, bringing that up in a meeting. It has to get- Yeah ... approved.

[01:00:02] Simone Collins: And like- Yeah, ‘cause like you could even imagine a world where like someone gets immediately fired for even bringing that up.

[01:00:07] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like, you know? And they need to know that the other people in the room won’t look down on them for saying this.

[01:00:13] Exactly. That no one in this room is the- Yeah ... type of person who’s gonna chastise you for bringing up an idea like this, or at least the, on net, the, the weight. And this is where we talk about like a major cultural shift within conservatism and you’re like, is this shift all the way to the top? Is it only in- Yeah

[01:00:30] the meme lord factories? Yeah. Is it only in the- No, no, no, no. It’s not just the meme factories, man. Mm-hmm. Down, down here in the meme factories, that’s where we are. We’re like, in the mines pulling the AI like sh- meme lords. Meme lords. Mm-hmm. No truly, if, if, if there was a category of human called the meme lords- Meme lords

[01:00:50] we would be among them. The meme lord factories, it extends all the way to the, you know, the senators and the congressional offices at this point.

[01:01:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:03] Simone Collins: Delightful time to be alive. I mean, you know, we felt this, this way the moment COVID started. That was, I don’t know, I feel like that’s when everything-

[01:01:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I mean, COVID was awesome for us.

[01:01:11] I, I loved- I feel like ... not being in the... I mean, it destroyed our business, but like, I don’t... Whatever. Yeah. You know,

[01:01:18] Simone Collins: like- Look, we, we like to look on the bright side of things. We like to believe, as techno puritans, that everything happens for a reason. So.

[01:01:25] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[01:01:25] Simone Collins: We loved. It’s great. You know?

[01:01:27] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, I, I love the business that we’ve been able to build.

[01:01:30] Let’s see. How many people? Over 200 people right now on the website.

[01:01:34] Simone Collins: Good. All right. All right.

[01:01:35] Malcolm Collins: We’re regularly hitting over 300 now at certain times of day.

[01:01:38] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. We’re getting a good click-through rate on our ads, so I’m gonna keep ‘em around. We’ll see.

[01:01:44] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, this is the thing. When you’re like, “Oh, it’s only, you know, 13 first time buyers a day,” or something like that.

[01:01:50] But if we convert, let’s say, 20% of those, which would be half of our historic record for, for conversion, right? Into, into l- you know, longtime users- Lifetime users ... that, that becomes cumulative over time. That is true. And also, any lifetime user we get is somebody who is posting about us in other locations likely.

[01:02:09] Simone Collins: Well, yeah, and like, also, what I like about RFAB as a site is that while all the other sites, especially you that we’re advertising against, are kind of like for one thing. They’re adventure sites, they’re chat apps, or they’re NSFW apps, where you’re only going to do one thing and it’s not, it’s not productive.

[01:02:29] You know? It’s not gonna make you- Yeah ... a better person. Let’s be so real. It’s, it’s a lesser evil that you’re hopefully gonna get over real fast and move on to something better. What I love about RFAB is it’s like, okay, you just did that. Did you know, by the way, you can use this for agentic AI, and you can use this to dub videos and build stuff and become a VTuber and edit videos and record podcasts and research things, build dossiers.

[01:02:56] I mean, we’ve had people reach out to us and point out that like- A lot of the tools that you made could be, could be useful in very buttoned-up corporate applications that are better than the internal tools at major corporations. And you know, like, this, this is stuff that can make you a more productive worker.

[01:03:12] This is stuff that is better than what people are working at at many enterprise operations. So I really like that about it too, because you sort of, you catch people with the vice, and then you try to radicalize them into productivity and virtue. Yeah. So we’re like the

[01:03:24] Malcolm Collins: opposite, What we’ll be moving to,

[01:03:27] Simone Collins: it appears to be mostly

[01:03:27] Malcolm Collins: working right

[01:03:28] Simone Collins: now is our recruit

[01:03:28] of, of like a, like, debauchery trap. We, we like, we use that as our lure, and then we’re like, “Sha-sha.” Like, “Go build something and earn money-” Productivity “... and have a family. Thrive.” Which is also kinda cool. So I like that. Thank you.

[01:03:41] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I always love it when people who like use other image generation services use ours, and they’re like, “Wait, this is...

[01:03:46] Why is-”

[01:03:46] Simone Collins: Oh, I can’t hear you.

[01:03:48] Malcolm Collins: Do you, then you need to leave

[01:03:49] Simone Collins: and then come back. What? Oh, no. Okay, hold on.

[01:03:52] Malcolm Collins: They’re always like, “Why is Nano Banana on your site better than Nano Banana on the Nano Banana site? Why is Open GPT on your site better than Open [01:04:00] GPT image making on the Open Image site?” And it’s like, well, we do- we use a lot of hacks here.

[01:04:05] But they’re hacks that you’re not easily gonna be able to do. But, like, everyone I’ve always known, when they try our image and video generation, they’re like, “That is incredible.”

[01:04:12] Simone Collins: It’s really good. It’s really good. I just used it like

[01:04:13] Malcolm Collins: 10 minutes ago. And we’re also the only AI site I am aware of, because we do this for image and video generation, that tells you exactly how much something’s gonna cost.

[01:04:20] Simone Collins: Such a relief. Yeah, no one tells you. It’s super annoying. And then like, you know, you put in, what, like 10 bucks, and then it’s suddenly gone. And you’re like, “Well, I wouldn’t have asked for that stupid thing if you told me that.” Like, I, I remember it when that first happened with Grok too. Of like, it, when you have like a subscription and you assume the subscription covers you, and then suddenly Grok is like, “No, we’re cutting you off, kid.”

[01:04:41] And you’re like, “Wait, well, I wouldn’t have generated all those extra images with your inf- infinite scrolling-”

[01:04:48] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ... “

[01:04:48] Simone Collins: if you told me that there was a meter on this.” Yeah, I really the transparency’s fantastic. The pricing is unbeatable, so also fantastic. Thank you.

[01:04:57] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we’ll also see. Well, I mean, it’s dangerous, frankly.

[01:05:00] Simone Collins: For us, yeah. I mean, not for the

[01:05:02] Malcolm Collins: user. Yeah, our margins are dangerously thin on RFAB. Like it could cause issues- Trust me, I can tell ... and it’s, it’s quite scary to run the site in the, in the way that we’re running it because we on, on the margin choose I think around one-fifth what is normally charged.

[01:05:14] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:15] Malcolm Collins: Which means that it, with, with model pricing and cost changing constantly, it means we need to be s- hypervigilant. And like there’s been multiple days where it’s like 10K down the drain because something was mispriced.

[01:05:26] Simone Collins: Yep.

[01:05:26] Malcolm Collins: Oh, well

[01:05:26] Simone Collins: I’ve hopefully put controls in place that will help us catch it sooner now.

[01:05:29] Like, we’re, we’re more organized now than we were before that happened. Anyway.

[01:05:34] Malcolm Collins: Anyway.

[01:05:35] Simone Collins: I love you.

[01:05:36] Malcolm Collins: Love you, too. You’re amazing, and I think you’re super cute, and you did great research here that is of benefit to society. Hopefully other conservative influencers who watch our stuff now have new information about, about she-

[01:05:48] Simone Collins: Well, and if they just wanna, like, just use literally my quotes and just copy our episode but with their own editorializing, go to our show notes on Substack or on Patreon.

[01:05:58] I, I, I, I make them available. I don’t paywall them, so just... They’re all straight from the PDF. You can Control + F to confirm, so just, like, use them and make your own stuff, ‘cause I, I wish more people were talking about this. And, and my... I, I paid for the token, so I’d rather that people use this stuff.

[01:06:16] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[01:06:17] Simone Collins: Anyway.

[01:06:17] Malcolm Collins: Love you.

[01:06:18] Simone Collins: Bye.

[01:06:22] Malcolm Collins: However you want to handle it

[01:06:24] Simone Collins: I am really creeped out by what Octavian said this morning.

[01:06:27] Malcolm Collins: That somebody was trying to break into our house?

[01:06:29] Simone Collins: Yes. Yes.

[01:06:31] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that-

[01:06:31] Simone Collins: People know where we live so...

[01:06:33] Malcolm Collins: Very worrying ‘

[01:06:34] Simone Collins: Cause he doesn’t make those things up. And he demonstrated very clearly what he saw

[01:06:40] Anyway, okay. I’ll just not think about it

[01:06:42] Malcolm Collins: No, but that could be the way the house is designed or something like that. Old houses make weird noises and shake in weird ways It

[01:06:48] Simone Collins: didn’t make a noise. It moved. But yeah, it, it could’ve, it could’ve moved. It could’ve been a draft

[01:06:55] Malcolm Collins: It could’ve been a draft. All the doors downstairs were locked ‘

[01:06:58] Simone Collins: Cause it...

[01:06:58] And it’s a bolted lock. Well, yeah, but...

[01:07:02] Malcolm Collins: and you’re just gonna get the security cameras all up and running again?

[01:07:04] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I am.

[01:07:05] This actually pushed me in a full-on crazy direction. So you know those little puck things that I had that I was using for companions with Rfab, the M5 devices? Well, now I’m making it so that they form a network around your house that can keep track of whatever is happening, as well as make a phone call to alert you if anybody who’s not in your sort of directory of known people appears in any images or around your house at any time.

[01:07:32] , But in addition to that, at the end of the day, , it goes over both your personal email, if you want to give it access to that, your wife’s personal email, if you want to give it access to that, and everything that happened in the house during the day. And then based on your own personal self-improvement goals, calls you up and, , talks you through how you could improve based on what it’s seen during that day and has a persistent memory.

[01:07:54] We’re calling it Little Brother. I’m very excited for this release. Who knows, maybe a week or something. The, the prototype’s [01:08:00] basically working right now, but I’ve got a lot of work to do.

[01:08:02] Speaker 2: So you have a military base and Titan. What is this? Cathedral A giant beauty. What kind of beauty is it? What does it do?

[01:08:17] Yeah. A castle. A castle? It’s a T-Rex. It’s a T-Rex, Indy? Where? Yeah. It’s right there. Yeah? It’s on all the books. Toasty, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. High five, buddy. Let me get it. Okay.

Disability reveal parties are the new gender reveal — and they’re even more unhinged.Simone fell down the rabbit hole after an autism reveal cake-cutting video went viral on X. What started as one awkward TikTok turned into a full cultural phenomenon: color-coded diagnosis guessing games, AuDHD parties, autism cupcake toppers at Walmart, Oriental Trading disability party favors, and people treating their mental health diagnoses like a baby to nurture and celebrate.

We watch the videos (including the “my brain is bad” one and the completely unhinged joke-diagnosis party that ends in pure Adderall cheers), dig into the Reddit posts from people who actually have autism and hate the idea, talk about why so many people suddenly want disabilities they don’t have, and connect it to identity collapse, tax-advantaged ABLE accounts, and the pure Darwinian spectacle of watching people turn their diagnoses into their entire personality.

Also: the tubes, Octavian’s perfect reaction to a dystopian AI video, Malcolm’s personal “collect the whole set” of diagnoses (dysgraphia is the real one), face blindness, and why your disabilities don’t actually define you.

Show Notes

@OliviaSorbo posted someone’s autism reveal party video on X and one of our friends shared it with us.

* Our friend (as well as many others) observed this woman is not acting very autistic (very sloppy cake cutting)

* Our friend said this has ADHD written all over it

* @Americanime noted: “Pointing out the obvious, but an autist would cut the cake more perfectly than anyone. Failing to cut the cake is the reveal that she’s NOT autistic. Pic related.” (he posted architectural drawings of a tank)

* @Penny_bigred commented: As a mother of someone who was born with autism, she isn’t Autistic she’s just a f*****g moron. Why do so many genz and millenials WANT & NEED to have disabilities they don’t actually have? Stealing resources, medical care and funding from the 1s that do.

The Etiquette of Disability Reveal Parties

* They almost always involve some sort of cake cutting / cake reveal

* Though some have suggested piñatas instead

* Before the reveal, guests are often invited to guess what the person has

* After the reveal, guests are expected to affirm the disabled person

You don’t need to handmake everything, you can get autism cupcake toppers on Walmart.com (various types, actually) and buy autism awareness party favors from Oriental Trading Company (not cheap at $54.99—they used to be so affordable!!)

Go to Tiktok, and you’ll find a bunch posted:

I could watch these for hours; I see why the format has gone viral

* Many are coming out as two things, like autistic + ADHD, which they’re calling “audhd”

* Some get more complex, with things like color codes, and at one party, guests were instructed to put colored stickers on their shirts representing the various disorders they THINK their friend had (e.g. anxiety, depression, BDP, ADHD, complex PTSD)

* Parents are hosting this for their young kids (even for things just like ADHD, which it seems like everyone has)

* One dad hosted a party for his kid and revealed to him that he DOESN’T have autism and he looks super disappointed

* One woman hosted a disability reveal party for her friends where she announced her autism and ADHD and said she’s getting tested for OCD next adding “my brain is bad and I’m really sad about it to be honest, so if you wanna come give me a hug I’d really appreciate it” and I don’t know what to feel about it

* There’s one which is particularly unhinged and funny, in which the poster’s friends make guesses about her disability that must be jokes??? Like that she has BPD, fetal alcohol syndrome, schizophrenia, “a festering hemorrhoid that has made her way to the endocrine system, her nervous system, and it has given her FIERCE anxiety” etc., and then when she reveals her disability (just ADHD) at the end they all start cheering: “ADEROL! ADEROL!”

The Dark Side of Disability Reveal Parties

People with actual autism not always thrilled about this

Expressed by one poster on r/autism: “I’m not sure if this is the right place to put this but I was looking for thoughts. So my psychiatrist has me diagnosed with autism but I already had an evaluation scheduled and she recommended doing that as well. So I’m hesitant to say I’m have autism but would be surprised if I didn’t at this point.

… My evaluation is on Tuesday. I was talking to my sister today and she shared that she saw a TikTok where someone did an evaluation and then their friend got their results and did like an autism reveal party. Like a gender reveal thing where if they cut into the cake and it’s colorful then they have autism. She said she thought it could be nice to do that and celebrate it.

I don’t like this. I told her I didn’t know if it was something worth celebrating because of how much it affects me. She seemed disappointed and said it could be. I said I would know already and she said we could set it up where she found out first to make it happen.

I don’t get it and am not sure if I’m weird or wrong about this but it makes me really uncomfortable. This is a thing that assuming I do have it has greatly affected me in negative ways my whole life.

It’s something I’m struggling with and has caused issues even between her and me. I don’t like surprises, I hate having to mask and react as expected to anything while I’m under pressure. This is a very personal thing for me and I’m struggling with how I feel about it to begin with. I also want to get this information first not have my family know before me. Like this diagnosis is about me. I want to go to the appointment where I get my results and be able to talk about it not have my sister go instead or something. I don’t know how that would work anyway.

I don’t know if I’m reacting or thinking about this wrong. Like maybe I should do what she wants to make her happy but I hate this idea. It feels really insensitive.”

(There’s more but I cut it short)

But they make a great point and also PARTIES ARE NOT OFTEN THAT FUN FOR AUTISTIC PEOPLE (sensory overload, heavy masking burden, etc.)

The top-voted comment in response to their post was: “This is f*****g giga cringe. It’s also not upto her it’s up to you”

Suffice it to say, it may be that actual autistic people don’t like this concept.

Making Disability Aspirational

One redditor on r/AutismInWomen posted about her autism reveal party: “Hi. Officially diagnosed yesterday at 26 years old. I hosted an “Autism Reveal Party” and though the community would appreciate it. My friends dressed up as my special interests and I served all of my favorite foods. I made everyone cupcakes and told them if it’s vanilla - neurotypical, funfetti - neurospicy! My name is Amanda and for the first time, I have Autism ❤️🧁”

* Photos include her eating the cupcake, her autism-infinity-symbol-themed charcuterie board, and… Bluey-branded go-gurt tubes in a bluey cup??? Her sweatshirt is embroidered with the word: “Overestimated”

* Apparently the Bluey thing is a result of her friends coming to her party dressed as special interests:

* Someone commented: “Your friends dressed up as special interests? That’s adorable, lol”

* Amanda replied: “Haha yes they did! They dressed as Bluey, pageants (I used to compete), a puzzle, a train conductor (who doesn’t love a train), Taylor Swift, and Disney! 😂”

* Top-voted comment on her post: “Oh my god. This is absolutely precious. I would give anything for a diagnosis. It would be so validating. Congratulations! I am truly happy for you. It also sounds like you have the best friends! So sweet all the way around.”

Probably not a good sign.

Episode Transript

[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. She has spent all day refusing to tell me what we’re going to do an episode on, because she is so excited to spill the beans on this one. So what is it, Simone?

[00:00:11] Simone Collins: Yeah. So, okay, you know how gender reveal parties became popular out of nowhere, getting so intense that ultimately five people have died in gender reveal party related

[00:00:22] Malcolm Collins: accidents?

[00:00:22] Potentially way more than five, because one might have caused that massive wildfire in

[00:00:26] Simone Collins: California. No, one did. One did cause the 2020 fi- wildfire.

[00:00:29] Malcolm Collins: Okay, so way more than five people.

[00:00:31] Simone Collins: Yeah. So. Well, I mean, confirmed. You know, directly resulting from the initial thing. Anyway, it turns out that people feel like they’re missing out on the fun since they’re, they’re not having kids, right?

[00:00:43] So you can’t have a gender reveal party well, I guess, you know, i- if you’re not having a baby. So what do you guess people are doing instead for their reveal parties?

[00:00:54] Malcolm Collins: Oh my God. It’s going to be- Mm ... something really sad and scary. Mm. And I cannot believe you have- Of course I do ... put me on this. Okay, it’s, it’s not gonna be something as straightforward as, like, gender reveal for a pet or something like that.

[00:01:06] No,

[00:01:06] Simone Collins: that’s, yeah, that’s what you would probably guess, yeah, like a pet.

[00:01:08] Malcolm Collins: Or picking a new name for themselves.

[00:01:11] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:01:11] Malcolm Collins: It’s gonna be something weirder and sadder. What is it, Simone?

[00:01:15] Simone Collins: Disabilities.

[00:01:17] Malcolm Collins: Disability

[00:01:18] Simone Collins: reveal parties? Disability reveal parties. And I fell down this rabbit hole because Olivia Sorbo posted someone’s autism reveal party video on X, and one of our friends-

[00:01:31] shared it with us, Sarah did, and our friend, as well as many others on X, observed this woman is not acting very autistic as she does her reveal.

[00:01:41] Speaker 17: Okay, what does everyone think? I think you definitely, absolutely, 100% have autism. What do you think? I’m with her. What do you think? I’m also with Elise. Okay. Okay, what do you think? Uh, I did

[00:01:59] wear a pink shirt. Okay, let’s see. I’m so scared. Okay, guys. Cut it straight across. What’s it gonna be? Okay. It’s time. I’m just waiting for there to be pink on the knife. Oh, s**t. Oh, my God, autism.

[00:02:15] Simone Collins: Because it, it involves, you know, c- cutting a cake, typically, to reveal the gender. And she’s not a very neat and tidy or precise cake cutter, and everyone’s like, “Dude, this is, she’s, she’s ADHD.

[00:02:26] This is not autism.”

[00:02:27] Malcolm Collins: Fake autism.

[00:02:28] Simone Collins: But every- Yeah, like, so this guy, a, Americanime, which is also an amazing- Twitter handle noted, “Pointing out the obvious, but an autist would cut the cake more perfectly than anyone. Failing to cut the cake is the reveal that she’s not autistic. Pic related.” And he posted architectural drawings of a tank.

[00:02:46] Malcolm Collins: A pic related architectural drawings of a tank. So- That is the perfect answer to that. I know. Pic related.

[00:02:53] Simone Collins: I know. And then this another, another X user, @pennybigred commented, “As a mother of someone who was born with autism, she isn’t autistic. She’s just an effing moron. Why do so many Gen Z and millennials want and need to have disabilities they don’t actually have, stealing resources, medical care, and funding from the ones that do?”

[00:03:14] Malcolm Collins: W- why do they want it? Well, because of the medical care resources, and because- Oh, God ... they don’t have identities anymore. When you tell a person, we’ve talked about this the, the concept of laundering white pride- Mm-hmm ... which is if you can’t have pride in your ancestry, if you can’t have pride in your religion, if you can’t have pride in your national identity- Mm-hmm

[00:03:31] what is left to have pride in other than I guess your s- your sexuality or your disabilities? Yeah. And that is what people do. They funnel their Nazi-istic instincts for, like, a, complex towards other people, “I’m different, I’m special,” into their disabilities and arousal pathways.

[00:03:49] Simone Collins: Well, and what’s so sick about having disability reveal parties is you’re kind of functionally signaling, “My disability is my baby. It is the thing that I will nurture and care [00:04:00] for and-” Yes. And I’m like, oh my G-

[00:04:02] Malcolm Collins: And defend with my life when you tell me you’re not autistic.

[00:04:05] Simone Collins: Exactly, though.

[00:04:06] Dude, that’s the, the, the, that’s the thing. I,

[00:04:09] Malcolm Collins: and I, I, this is coming from the most autistic YouTube family.

[00:04:13] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:04:14] Malcolm Collins: So far, th- three, three kids and one wife. You know-

[00:04:17] Simone Collins: Yeah, children who are so sensitive to stimuli that they refuse to eat food because it will get wet in their mouths.

[00:04:23] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[00:04:25] Simone Collins: Oh my God.

[00:04:27] Malcolm Collins: Oh my God.

[00:04:27] Yeah, no, it’s not, it’s not fun all the time. Oh. That’s a very Simone thing, though. I’ve been living with this for a long time.

[00:04:34] Simone Collins: I know. When- I know. I trained you. I trained you to parent.

[00:04:37] Malcolm Collins: So there was a long time in our relationship, like her symptoms have gone down as she’s gotten older, where she wouldn’t touch door handles.

[00:04:45] And so I had to touch all the door handles like she was royalty. To this day ... and, and even today, if you walk around with Simone, you’ll notice she acts very weird whenever she gets to a door. And I think the main reason you got away, around it is because you mostly just live in our house now and you don’t go out much.

[00:05:01] But you have all these systems for, like, doing things with your elbows and for all the different types of door handles and everything. Like you’re somebody who’s like no arms or something when it comes to door handles.

[00:05:11] Simone Collins: Well, and you see one of our kids doing exactly the same thing- ... with his, like, weird hand things.

[00:05:16] You know? And he has to always have his hands clean. It’s, it, it’s, it’s super heritable. It’s insane. Like, it, this is a genetic thing. Anyway I, when I saw that video on X, of course I had to learn more ‘cause at first I was like, “This is too good to be true. This, this can’t... Like, stop. You... No.”

[00:05:32] Malcolm Collins: I am so desperately glad that these people are not having kids.

[00:05:36] People are always like, “Oh, aren’t you mad at Dinks?” And I’m like, “Mm-mm.”

[00:05:39] Simone Collins: They’re, they’re definitely not having kids. I-

[00:05:41] Malcolm Collins: Your eyes, by the way, lit up so much at the, the sheer patheticness of these people.

[00:05:48] Simone Collins: You just- No, Malcolm, it gets so much better. You have no idea. Okay? Okay. ‘Cause I was like, this has to be isolated.

[00:05:54] This can’t, this can’t exist as a thing. But it super does. It’s really amazing, and there’s this whole etiquette around disability reveal parties too. So, like with baby r- or gender reveal parties, they almost always involve some sort of cake cutting or cake reveal. Though, some have suggested pinatas instead because, yes, there are articles on gender, or sorry, disability reveal party ideas.

[00:06:20] ‘Cause we need those ‘cause it’s such a thing now. Mm-hmm. And before the reveal- One, one of the things that often has at the, happens at these parties is guests are invited to, to make predictions or guess what the, the guest of honor has, what, what the subject of the party has. Oh my...

[00:06:38] Malcolm Collins: Thing, g- the, the insufferability of this.

[00:06:42] Simone Collins: It’s r- it’s great. No, it gets better. I am- And then af- after reve- of course, after they, they reveal who they are by cutting the cake or whatever the, of course, they’re expected to affirm whatever that is. You know, like, “Oh, you know, we’re so happy for y- you know, like, you go,

[00:06:56] Malcolm Collins: Princess.”

[00:06:56] Simone Collins: We’re so happy.

[00:06:57] Yeah. You

[00:06:58] Malcolm Collins: have

[00:06:58] Simone Collins: a

[00:06:58] Malcolm Collins: disability. We’re so happy for your disability.

[00:07:01] Simone Collins: Yes. Yeah, they get celebrated. Ooh. They get all the attention. You know, this is, like, their accolades. And then you, you also, just in case you’re, you’re planning your party now you, you don’t need to hand-make everything. You can actually get au- autism cupcake toppers at walmart.com, and also there’s, there’s multiple types that you can get.

[00:07:18] And you can buy autism awareness party favors from Oriental Trading Company, which by the way are 54.99, which is insane, ‘cause I remember Oriental Trading from my childhood being, like, super cheap. It was like, “Oh my God, how can I get this many party favors for 9.99?” So I don’t know what happened to them Like private equity or something Private equity?

[00:07:38] I’m guessing, right? So if you go to TikTok, you will find that there have been a bunch posted. And I, I could really watch them for hours. I almost did this morning. I just, I couldn’t look away. So- At

[00:07:51] Malcolm Collins: the end of this video, you were talking about the tubes, and this concept of, like, these tubes that people go through.

[00:07:57] I’ll just put the clip here because it was such an [00:08:00] interesting conversation.

[00:08:00] Simone Collins: w- okay, I, this just happened. I am kind of behind on, like, s- monitoring things I do, but every day I check trending items on X, and, like, headlines and Google Trends and prediction markets. And something that was trending on X was this discussion of someone’s AI video in which they depict this, mm, dystopian future city where only the rich people can live, but there’s one way you can get in, and it’s if you survive the tubes.

[00:08:34] And it depicts these people struggling through snow and ice and fighting off bears or evading grizzly bears inside these thick, large glass tubes that, that snake through this modern city. So, like, little girls are walking by and, like, pressing their faces up against the glass as men are fighting for their lives and attempting to get through the tubes.

[00:08:56]

[00:10:25] Simone Collins: That

[00:10:25] Malcolm Collins: sounds cool as hell.

[00:10:28] Simone Collins: That is. So yeah, Octavian’s looking at that and he’s like, “Where’s that?” And I’m like, “That’s that’s a, a city with, you know, tubes.” And he’s like, “I wanna go.” And I’m like, “Into the city or in- inside the tubes?” And he’s like, “The tubes.” And I’m like, “Well, you understand that a lot of people die in the tubes.”

[00:10:44] And he’s like, “Well, yeah, but what, what do you get if you win?” And I explained to him, “Well, then you get to live in the city. It’s, it’s a very expensive city only for rich people.” And he’s like, “Okay, well how much does it cost to live in, like, to get into the city?” I’m like, “Well, probably, like, billions of dollars.”

[00:11:00] And he said, “And how much does it cost to get in the tubes?” And I say, “It’s free. It’s free to go in the tubes, but you might die. But if you g- if you get through, you’re in.” And he’s like, “The tubes, that’s a good deal.” That’s a good deal. Good deal. So not only did he love the idea

[00:11:19] Malcolm Collins: of taking on- That’s a good deal

[00:11:20] the tubes. That’s a good-

[00:11:21] Simone Collins: He was like, “Look, even if I had a million dollars, I’m going in the tubes.” And it’s just- Check it out ... so striking to me that there’s, like, this, this subset of, of society that sees the tubes and they’re like, “It’s so unfair. Poor people are, like, mm, dystopia.” And there are other people who are like, “Mm.”

[00:11:41] You, you react to the tubes. You’re

[00:11:43] Malcolm Collins: like, “That sounds awesome.” Yeah. No, that’s a masculine way to react. Actually, as sort of a

[00:11:46] Simone Collins: meta- No, is it any wonder that, like, which group do you think ends up with all the money, Malcolm?

[00:11:53] Malcolm Collins: The, the, the men? The, yeah. The- No. The, well, the

[00:11:55] Simone Collins: ones who are like, “Dude, I’m going for the tubes.” [00:12:00]

[00:12:00] Malcolm Collins: Well, so what’s, what’s funny is that this is basically society, though. Like, this is capitalism. The tubes are just capitalism, right? Like- I

[00:12:08] Simone Collins: know, I know. That’s, that’s

[00:12:09] Malcolm Collins: funny ... you, you work really hard and, and- Yeah

[00:12:10] and everybody gets to laugh at you while you’re working, which I need to do more of. I need to watch more videos of people failing at life. That is what Caleb, Caleb Hammer is the tubes.

[00:12:20] Simone Collins: Oh my God.

[00:12:21] Malcolm Collins: Caleb Hammer.

[00:12:22] Simone Collins: That’s actually really funny. Okay, because Romie as in who, who radicalized us against abortion Romie- Yeah

[00:12:28] who has great takes on X. I, I love following her. She, she was like, “Look, rich people don’t like looking at poor people. It’s always... Like, being rich has always been about separating yourself from the lives of poor people. This would never happen. Like, the tubes would never exist.” But you’re totally right.

[00:12:43] The tubes exist, Romie, and we love the tubes. And it’s called Financial Audit, hosted by Caleb Hammer.

[00:12:48] Malcolm Collins: You gotta respond to, to that tweet of hers, by the way. Yeah ... also, the person you said that Leafletting wasn’t working on Firefox, did that fix it then, so you can let them know?

[00:12:55] Simone Collins: Awesome. Okay.

[00:12:56] Malcolm Collins: But I feel like this is your the tubes. This is-

[00:13:01] Simone Collins: Oh, God, you’re right. I’m

[00:13:03] Malcolm Collins: so horrible. This is 100%. You watching these people getting mauled by the bear- This is so funny ... that is the, the, their own psychology,

[00:13:11] Simone Collins: You’re-

[00:13:11] Malcolm Collins: And laughing and laughing and being like, “Look at another one.”

[00:13:17] Simone Collins: Oh. Oh, God, you’re right. No, I’m the worst. This is horrible. But okay, so obviously the, there, there are a lot of these. I love them. You should go check them out. I link them in the show notes. I link everything in the show notes on Substack and Patreon. And many are coming out in these parties as two things, or, like, multiple things.

[00:13:36] So, like, a, a big, a super common one I discovered is autistic plus ADHD, which they’re calling AuDHD. And then some get a little more complex with things like color codes. At, at one party, guests were instructed to go into the bathroom and look at, like, a color-coded, like, color, like, color, so like, you know, red sticker, green sticker, yellow sticker on a little card that listed different conditions like anxiety, depression, BPD, ADHD, complex PTSD, and then they were supposed to put their guesses on their shirt.

[00:14:10] And then they would, they went out, and then finally there was the big reveal, and everyone got to see how, like, correct they were. Actually, Malcolm, I have to send you this clip.

[00:14:18] Malcolm Collins: No, hold on. I’ve, I’ve got, I’ll tell you exactly what I would do.

[00:14:22] Simone Collins: Okay.

[00:14:22] Malcolm Collins: I’d go in the restroom. I’d, I’d take a, a blank color code card and just, like, retard it on it.

[00:14:28] And then come out like, “You’re retarded, aren’t you? You’re retarded.”

[00:14:32] Simone Collins: Malcolm, you got, you gotta watch this. Watch, watch it. I just sent you on WhatsApp.

[00:14:35] Malcolm Collins: Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[00:14:36] Speaker: Hi, I’m Ally. This is my mental illness neuropsych eval gender reveal party. This is our color code. So I’m having people guess what my diagnoses are. So yeah

[00:14:51] Speaker 2: Hi, I’m Yesenia and I think Allie has BPD, anxiety, complex PTSD, ADHD, and depression Hi, I’m Hannah. I’m the funkle, and I think Allie’s real fucked up in the brain. Specifically, I think she has ADHD, OCD, uh, BPD, anxiety, depression, and complex PTSD

[00:15:23] Speaker 4: I’m Chris, and I think they threw the whole book at her

[00:15:29] Speaker 5: Hi, I’m Mary, and I think that Allie has BPD, anxiety, complex PTSD, and ADHD. Hi, I’m Sophia, and I think Allie has ADHD, anxiety, depression, complex PTSD, and BPD. Okay. I’m Allie, and these are my actual results. So, if you had anxiety, you are correct. Yay. Woo. If you had BPD, [00:16:00] you are also correct.

[00:16:04] Speaker: Yay. Yes. If you had ADHD, also correct. Yay. Yes. And finally, if you put complex PTSD, you got it right. Yay. Woo.

[00:16:18] Simone Collins: Okay. It, it feels like such an insult that, that, you know, they’re like... I mean, I, I think if, if you say someone has borderline personality disorder, like, you kinda think they’re a

[00:16:28] Malcolm Collins: terrible person. That, that is not one of the good ones. I know. That’s like being retarded. Like-

[00:16:32] Simone Collins: No, it’s like, it’s... I always...

[00:16:33] Well, I, I, I feel like see you next Tuesday is, like, the word. That, that is what you are. Like, you’re just a terrible person that’s, like-

[00:16:39] Malcolm Collins: And you’re- ...

[00:16:40] Simone Collins: has

[00:16:40] Malcolm Collins: s- severe- You’re honestly cucking. No, it’s, it’s being a, a medically, medically a see you next Tuesday. Yeah,

[00:16:46] Simone Collins: yeah. You’ve been... Yeah, like you’ve confirmed by trained psychologists, it’s a, it’s... Yeah, you’re a, you’re a complete jerk. A terrible person.

[00:16:54] Malcolm Collins: You act in a way that is just pointlessly cruel to other people-

[00:16:57] Simone Collins: I know. Yeah, yeah ... for, for your own amusement And, but, like when she comes out, complex PTSD? Like, what, what does it even mean? Like, you don’t really have it, but we’re gonna give it to you ‘cause we won’t leave us.

[00:17:05] But I

[00:17:05] Malcolm Collins: also love the pride they have in how many they have.

[00:17:08] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. You know, like- All the dots. All the dots. Yeah ...

[00:17:10] Malcolm Collins: it can’t just be one, and you’ve gotta affirm them and be, “I have depression. Yay.” Yeah. You know? Like, what the... Nobody wants depression. Yeah. That’s not like a... I guess- Yeah ... sort of like, “Oh, my life is extra hard.”

[00:17:24] And what’s really funny about all of this-

[00:17:26] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm ...

[00:17:27] Malcolm Collins: if you do one of these, you come out and it’s just a blank card. You’re

[00:17:30] Simone Collins: like, “Is this cheating?” Actually, no, no, no. So, so, Malcolm, yes. There’s this one... So yeah, ‘cause parents are hosting these for their young kids, even for, like, just ADHD. Like, I found a video where one mother has her son cut a cake, and he has ADHD.

[00:17:41] Like, dude, no, sorry, that’s called being a boy in our modern age. I, I-

[00:17:46] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...

[00:17:46] Simone Collins: I challenge you to find a single male child in a, in an elementary school now who doesn’t have ADHD. Like, for real. Oof. I think-

[00:17:54] Malcolm Collins: No, I am... And, and just for people coming at this, and they’re like, “Oh, you guys are being so mean as neurotypical people,” like, in terms of diagnoses, I’m like a collect the whole set, right?

[00:18:05] Like-

[00:18:06] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:18:06] Speaker 5: The whole set

[00:18:08] Malcolm Collins: they just don’t affect me. You don’t hear about them on the show because they are not relevant- Yeah, well, ‘cause, you know- ... to my

[00:18:15] Simone Collins: day-to-day life or identity ... everyone just has slightly different different abilities, you know? Like, it’s just, you know, hey, that’s that’s, that’s Peter. Yeah. Oh, hold on.

[00:18:21] He’s like that, you know? That’s,

[00:18:22] Malcolm Collins: that’s Jenny I’ll go through everything I’ve e- I’ve ever been diagnosed with. So let’s, let’s go through everything,

[00:18:26] Simone Collins: Oh, are we gonna put... Oh my God, no. We should have a little-

[00:18:30] Malcolm Collins: Oh, dude,

[00:18:30] Simone Collins: we all- ... disability reveal party for you. I- Okay, I’m gonna guess-

[00:18:34] Malcolm Collins: Okay. You, g- you know them all.

[00:18:36] Simone Collins: I know, I know ...

[00:18:36] Malcolm Collins: so, ADD, ADHD bipolar what’s the one where you s- read things backwards?

[00:18:43] Simone Collins: Dysgraphia? Oh, no, dyslexia.

[00:18:45] Malcolm Collins: Dyslexia. I reveal dysgraphia. Dysgraphia. And I, I, I think those are all the main ones that, that I’m... But like

[00:18:54] Simone Collins: I don’t- But you don’t actually have bipolar. Your mom just didn’t like the way you reacted to things when you were a kid, so she like-

[00:18:58] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, she’s just like spa- y- I’m not gonna spank his butt, I’m gonna spank his brain for- Do, do...

[00:19:04] I don’t think I had ADD either. I, I actually have a great attention span. I’m a very focused person. Yeah,

[00:19:07] Simone Collins: you actually really do. Yeah.

[00:19:08] Malcolm Collins: So I, I... But I liked having that because it allowed me to get amphetamines as a child- Yeah ... which are very- Yeah ... useful for test taking. Yeah. I’m gonna be honest.

[00:19:17] They, they do help me focus even more for studying and testing.

[00:19:21] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:19:21] Malcolm Collins: That’s true. Which

[00:19:22] Simone Collins: is

[00:19:22] Malcolm Collins: extremely useful. But I haven’t taken one- Yeah ... in a decade at least.

[00:19:27] Simone Collins: Yeah, ‘cause you don’t have anyone who will prescribe it for you now. ‘Cause like you don’t actually have a real diagnosis

[00:19:33] Malcolm Collins: for it. No, I’ve got all the old ones.

[00:19:35] Simone Collins: You still... Yeah, I doubt they still work.

[00:19:37] Malcolm Collins: Oh, they would still work.

[00:19:39] Simone Collins: You, you have them somewhere?

[00:19:40] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I’ve taken old, old ones of those pills from like decades ago, and they still work. Oh, my God.

[00:19:44] Simone Collins: Hmm. That’s unusual.

[00:19:45] Malcolm Collins: I ex- by, by the way, my, my, my amphetamine of choice in that category is Ritalin because I, I would strongly push people away from taking...

[00:19:53] what’s the other one that a lot of people took?

[00:19:54] Simone Collins: Adderall. Oh. Adderall.

[00:19:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Adderall is just Ritalin cut with stuff that makes it more addictive [00:20:00] and fun. Which, which, which- No,

[00:20:01] Simone Collins: no, no. The... Malcolm, you’re, you’re behind the times. It’s all about Vyvanse these days.

[00:20:05] Malcolm Collins: The re- Vyvanse.

[00:20:05] Simone Collins: Everyone’s on Vyvan- Vyvanse

[00:20:06] Malcolm Collins: the reason why I liked Ritalin so much is it wasn’t c- it, like, just felt bad to take.

[00:20:11] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:20:11] So yeah- Well, that’s... Yeah, then you found Naltrexone and you re- you just love taking things that make you feel horrible.

[00:20:15] Malcolm Collins: The, the, the, the... The drugs that, like, I get super into are always the ones that I know I feel worse when I’m on-

[00:20:22] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:20:23] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ... so that I don’t ever feel a temptation. Like, if I ever take something and I’m like, “Oh, I kinda like that,” I, I would never touch it again. I’d be like-

[00:20:30] Simone Collins: Yeah ... “

[00:20:30] Malcolm Collins: No, no.” I, I’ve already got alcohol. You- we already got one thing. We don’t need anything else, okay? I got, I got enough things to deal with over here.

[00:20:38] Simone Collins: Yeah, you’re a taken man. Yeah.

[00:20:39] Malcolm Collins: But the, the point being, although I will say out of all of those that I have, the one that actually, like, is hugely affected in my daily life is dysgraphia. Like I recently- ... had to write something at a doctor, and they were like can... Do, do you want me to write for you?”

[00:20:51] Like- Oh, they offered to write for you? Yeah. Basically it means I can’t, I can’t hand write.

[00:20:54] Simone Collins: Yeah, when,

[00:21:00] when he does it looks like a kindergartner, first-grader handwriting things.

[00:21:04] Malcolm Collins: And it’s ex- Just really, really slow

[00:21:07] Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s really sweet.

[00:21:09] Malcolm Collins: But now- This is why we have keywords ... my beautiful legacy was AI. This is the thing, when people wanna attack me for, like, my artistic skills or AI or whatever, and it’s like, “Bro, I have a disability.”

[00:21:18] I us-

[00:21:18] Simone Collins: Bro, I’m disabled. Yeah.

[00:21:20] Malcolm Collins: I use AI to overcome my disability with writing things pretty.

[00:21:26] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I, I can definitely, Of all those things that y- your mom, like, slapped on you when you were a kid, dysgraphia, that one, that one be real. That one be super real. Anyway, though, there was one, Dad-

[00:21:38] Malcolm Collins: Oh, face blindness.

[00:21:39] I forgot about that.

[00:21:39] Simone Collins: Oh my God, right. Yes. No,

[00:21:41] Malcolm Collins: he’s serious. And Tourette’s. I forgot about that one, too.

[00:21:43] Simone Collins: Oh my gosh, yes, the Tourette’s. No, the Tourette’s is real, but it’s a weird f- form of it. It’s super weird. And then the, the face blindness.

[00:21:53] Malcolm Collins: Like, it makes conferences so awkward My, my, my

[00:21:54] Simone Collins: brain

[00:21:55] Malcolm Collins: did not cook right.

[00:21:57] There, there-

[00:21:57] Simone Collins: Well, what, your mom was drinking, like, how much?

[00:21:59] Malcolm Collins: A ton. My mom said she drank, I think it was at least a b- a bottle of wine a day.

[00:22:04] Simone Collins: A bottle a day. So- Bottle of a day keeps the blues away.

[00:22:08] Malcolm Collins: I, I don’t have fetal alcohol syndrome- I think- ... because you can see that on the face.

[00:22:11] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah

[00:22:12] Malcolm Collins: so it’s, it’s, Well, also, if I had fetal alcohol syndrome, I doubt I would have gotten top grades at St. Andrew’s and Stanford Business School.

[00:22:19] Simone Collins: You don’t know how top your grades could’ve been, Malcolm. I mean- Yeah,

[00:22:23] Malcolm Collins: how, how nerfed am I, right? You know? Let’s meet our kid.

[00:22:27] Simone Collins: They end up- You have not seen your final form.

[00:22:29] It’s so true, but yeah, you don’t have that face, and so, yeah. I mean, my mom drank too ‘cause she didn’t know she was pregnant until she had her second trimester. Well, I mean- Like, we’re all fine, guys.

[00:22:38] Malcolm Collins: It’s fine ... my, my family just drinks an astonishing amount. Like- Yeah,

[00:22:41] Simone Collins: that’s the thing, is, is I think that certain, certain people are just born to be pickled, and we’re, that’s some- That’s us.

[00:22:47] Anyway, though, back, back to, back to these amazing TikToks that I found. I found one, to your point, where this dad hosted a party for his kid and d- and he filmed it for TikTok, did the whole thing, asked each family member to say, like, what they thought the son had. And then they cut the cake open, and he doesn’t have anything.

[00:23:21] It’s negative. And his dad’s just so pleased with himself. I feel like that was a really good, like, push back against the trend of like, “No, you idiot.” Like, “Stop. This is really stupid. You’re fine.” Oh,

[00:23:33] Malcolm Collins: and I will also say more than all the others, the one that always gets me is when people have something as minor as dyslexia, and they act like it’s some major downside in their life.

[00:23:42] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah.

[00:23:42] Yeah ...

[00:23:43] Malcolm Collins: like, dyslexia is irrelevant. I, I would say I have pretty severe dyslexia, and it just, in terms of, like, other things you can have it just doesn’t come close to impacting my daily life. The, the other

[00:23:54] Simone Collins: one- I mean, also, I think maybe why it becomes so salient for people, ‘cause I’m s- I’m experiencing this with one of our [00:24:00] dyslexic kids, is it just makes re- learning to read such a drag for them because-

[00:24:06] Malcolm Collins: Yeah

[00:24:07] Simone Collins: they’re, like- I re- I, I’m, I’m asking him to, like, read off, like, “Well, okay, let’s sound out the word together.” And then, like, the letters come out, you know, ‘cause I’m like, “Well, just tell me the letters in the word,” ‘cause I’m, like, cleaning something sh- always. And you know, he’s telling me, you know, “Well, what’s this word?”

[00:24:21] And, you know, then I go, and it’s, like, jumbled up letters, and I’m like, “What are you looking at?” Then I look at the letter, and it’s, you know, it’s like, you know, stroller or something. But he’s, it’s, you know, it’s like S-T-R-O you know,

[00:24:33] Malcolm Collins: E-R-L-L No, but one of the ones that would affect you very severely, and this is the thing.

[00:24:38] I never hear people talk about the ones that actually have a big negative effect in your life. Mm-hmm. Like dysgraphia, I’ve never heard anyone else complain about dysgraphia. I’ve never heard anyone identify as dysgraphic. I’ve never

[00:24:47] Simone Collins: heard- Except for like every doctor ever. It’s the... I don’t know.

[00:24:50] There’s some mystery with

[00:24:51] Malcolm Collins: that. The, the, the other one is well, no, for doctors it’s just a style because they write quickly. It’s not like, I’ve never heard a doctor complain about dysgraphia.

[00:24:58] And then the, the one that actually does affect you, dysgraphia is one that actually does affect you, and face blindness. I never hear anyone complain about face blindness as being a major thing.

[00:25:06] It has such a big effect on my daily

[00:25:08] Simone Collins: life. People make a lot of like comics about it. I think people just think it’s funny when like their friend like just never recognizes them.

[00:25:15] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like, recently like we were on a one of my classmate’s shows and they were like, “Oh, somebody at school dressed up as you,” and somebody said, “Oh, was it this one kid?”

[00:25:23] And I go, “Oh, no, no, he wasn’t Black. I’d remember that.” And they thought that that was me being racist, and it’s like, no, actually I can, I can tell people’s ethnicities apart, I just can’t tell them apart within an ethnic group.

[00:25:34] Simone Collins: Yeah, like imagine like a Barbie or Ken doll, but just with no face on it so you can like work out the shape of them, maybe their outfit.

[00:25:42] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like a lot of people don’t really get face blindness. It’s not that I can’t remember people and personalities. If somebody at school has a Mohawk, I’ll always remember Mohawk guy.

[00:25:49] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:25:49] Malcolm Collins: Or if they always dress the same way- Mm-hmm ... or if they have some unique feature. Oh

[00:25:53] Simone Collins: my God, do you think this is why, ‘cause I have mild face blindness, do you think this is why we find uniforms so appealing and we’re like, “This

[00:26:00] Malcolm Collins: is-” Well, it’s one of the reasons why I started wearing a uniform, yeah.

[00:26:03] Simone Collins: Yeah. ‘Cause then we were like, “I feel this for other people. Can we just like-

[00:26:13] Yeah, why

[00:26:14] Malcolm Collins: the heck is everyone out there like a psycho changing their clothing every day, right? Like- Yeah, man ... have one outfit, man. You don’t need- That’s so hard ... more than one outfit.

[00:26:17] Simone Collins: Yeah. For real.

[00:26:19] Malcolm Collins: My clothing, like, literally only changes with how hot the house is.

[00:26:22] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:26:23] Malcolm Collins: which you’ll see

[00:26:24] Simone Collins: on the show It’s not even that sometimes.

[00:26:25] Malcolm Collins: It’ll start going back to me wearing my medieval outfit again once it gets... But it’s just too hot. I can’t. I know,

[00:26:29] Simone Collins: it’s too hot. It’s too damn hot. Yeah, I get it.

[00:26:31] Malcolm Collins: It’s also why on the Leaflet streams, people actually might have a question over this, why do I take off my glasses on the Leaflet streams?

[00:26:37] Mm-hmm. It’s because my face gets too sweaty if I talk for, like, 10 hours in the glasses.

[00:26:42] Simone Collins: Oh, God. 10 hours. ‘Cause they’re just...

[00:26:45] Malcolm Collins: People do not know how long 10 hours of speech is.

[00:26:48] Simone Collins: Yeah. No, 10-hour stand-up routine, mad respect for streamers who go long. Anyway, though, back to these, these disability reveal parties.

[00:26:56] They can be extremely sad. Like, one thing that’s really apparent across these TikTok videos is the extent to which those who are having these parties- Both really, really, really want attention and adulation, but are also, like, full of self-hatred. And not in, like, an affirming way, like, “I love myself for this.”

[00:27:17] So this one woman hosted a disability reveal party for her friends where she announced her autism and ADHD, and said she’s getting tested for OCD next, adding, “My brain is bad and I’m really sad a- about it, to be honest. So if you wanna give me a hug I’d really appreciate it.” And I don’t know what to think about it.

[00:27:36] Speaker 11: Yay!

[00:27:43] My brain is bad and

[00:27:52] Speaker 10: I’m really sad about it, to be honest. So if you wanna come hug me, I’d really appreciate it. I’m so grateful that I had so many friends to come out and support me last night. Um, being neurodivergent can be incredibly [00:28:00] frustrating and incredibly lonely, and I’m very blessed to have so many people in my life who love me so much and who are happy to support me while I navigate this new diagnosis.

[00:28:10] If you are also AuDHD and you have any suggestions on books to read or resources to look into while I get to know my brain a little bit better, I would really appreciate it, and I love you, too. Be gay, do crime.

[00:28:24] Simone Collins: It’s just, like, my brain is bad? Like, that’s- My

[00:28:26] Malcolm Collins: brain is bad? What, w- autism is this one that she-

[00:28:29] Simone Collins: Yeah, she says she has autism and ADHD, and then she’s getting tested for OCD. And my brain is bad? Like, dude, no, your brain is different. Just deal with it. Like, it’s...

[00:28:41] Malcolm Collins: These people want excuses for themselves so hard, right?

[00:28:45] Like-

[00:28:46] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:28:46] Malcolm Collins: i, I, you and I have been very successful, both of us in, in our academic lives and in our professional lives despite all of this, and it just, like, doesn’t come up. Your autism is just, like, not, like, there, we, we find ways to work around it.

[00:29:00] Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay, don’t don’t watch this yet. I just sent you my brain is bad video, just in case you wanted to watch it later.

[00:29:06] But the, I do want you to watch the one I just I, I just sent you most recently. Don’t watch it yet, because, okay, so, like, this, I think, is my favorite one of all of them. And, and this is where I just get kind of confused by some of them because there’s this, it’s unhinged. This, it, I think it’s supposed to be funny, ‘cause, like, the people participating- So the poster’s friends make guesses in this video about her disability that are jokes.

[00:29:30] You know, they’re like, “You know, I’m so-and-so’s daughter,” and it’s, like, a grown man. Like, you know, they’re joking about who they are.

[00:29:37] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...

[00:29:37] Simone Collins: but then their, like, guesses about her are, like, that she has BPD, fetal alcohol syndrome, schizophrenia. One woman says, “A festering hemorrhoid that has made her way to the endocrine system, her nervous system, and it has given her fierce anxiety.”

[00:29:52] And then at the end when she reveals her disability, which is just ADHD, they all end up start cheering. Like, they were like, “Adderall. Adderall.” And I don’t know. I kinda, I kinda like her. Like, I kinda dig it, but at the same time, her friends being like, “Yeah, girl, you got fetal alcohol syndrome.” You-

[00:30:09] Malcolm Collins: No, what’s funny in these is that the friends seem to be taking sort of digs at their friend throughout these.

[00:30:15] Simone Collins: Yes. I don’t know.

[00:30:17] Malcolm Collins: Why

[00:30:17] Simone Collins: are

[00:30:17] Malcolm Collins: they friends? These are not friend, friend groups that really like each other that much. That- Well,

[00:30:20] Simone Collins: and also, like, why are you friends with this person? Like, they sound unhinged and toxic and... Anyway, n- like, see what these people are saying. It, like, it’s said with love and, like, joking, but I, I don’t know what to make of it, so watch it

[00:30:37] Speaker 7: I’m her pawpaw, and I think that she has BPD. I’m her secret lesbian lover, and I think she’s got the gay sickness. Oh. I’m her Nini, and I think she got multiple personality disorder. Oh. I’m the auntie, and I think we’ve got a touch of the ‘tism. Hi. I’m her bubba, and I think she has a little bit of schizophrenia.

[00:31:00] Speaker 8: I’m Sophia’s small group leader, and I think she has fetal alcohol syndrome. Oh. I’m her conversion therapist, and I think she needs to get right. I’m her ma, and I think she got don’t make me drink alone disorder. I’m your daughter, and I think you might be a drinking problem. I’m her cheetah, and I think she has schizophrenia.

[00:31:23] Ah. I am Soph’s sister, auntie, niece, cousin, and I believe that she has a festering hemorrhoid that has made her way to the endocrine system, the nervous system, and it has given her fierce anxiety.

[00:31:47] Speaker 7: Is it a boy or girl? What is it? Wondering. It’s ADHD. [00:32:00] Hey.

[00:32:09] Malcolm Collins: Okay, what I love is the one guy who’s clearly just being honest and- ... and says it very differently from everyone else. He’s like, “She has a drinking problem.” You know, e- everyone else is, like, giving their cutesy little answers. Yeah. I think she needs conversion therapy. This guy’s like, like, “I could tell from some of the other answers she probably does actually have alcoholism.”

[00:32:30] Yeah. ... and it’s like, I hope... No, I would love to do one of these. Switch out their cake for the, for the alcoholism one. And you know, turn it into, like, an intervention.

[00:32:41] Simone Collins: An intervention? Oh my God.

[00:32:45] Malcolm Collins: Be like, “You have alcoholism. Woo-hoo.”

[00:32:47] Simone Collins: Yeah, this is like the one where I’m like, this is a fun party. Like, that in contrast to the, like, my, my, my brain is bad where, like, her friends are just, like, sitting there looking uncomfortable with the Costco hot dogs she bought them.

[00:33:01] This, this looked like it’s a fun party. Look, at least people, you know, before they go sober, like, can be pretty fun, so it’s okay. But I again, I could watch these forever. But here’s a dark side of disability reveal parties. So obviously not everyone’s super thrilled about these. There’s one poster on r/autism on, on Reddit who wrote, and I’m just gonna read part of what they said, but they said, “I’m not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I was looking for thoughts.

[00:33:30] So my psychiatrist has me diagnosed with autism, but I already had an evaluation scheduled and she recommend doing that as well, so I’m hesitant to say that I have autism-” “... but I would be surprised if I didn’t at this point.” So first off, this is someone who, like, is very cautious about being diagnosed.

[00:33:46] They’re not, like, internet diagnosed. Like, they already have one person

[00:33:49] Malcolm Collins: who, like, confirmed it. Yeah, he’s what, what do they call this in the trans community? A true scum.

[00:33:52] Simone Collins: A true scum. So anyway, they continue, “My evaluation is on Tuesday. I was thinking to my sister,” or, “I was talking to my sister today and she shared that she saw a TikTok where someone did an evaluation, and then their friend got the results and did, like, an autism reveal party.

[00:34:07] Like a gender reveal thing where if they cut into the cake and it’s colorful, then they have autism. She said she thought it could be nice to do that and celebrate it. I don’t like this. I told her. I didn’t know if it was something worth celebrating because of how much it affects me.” “She seemed disappointed and said it could be.

[00:34:25] I said I would know already.” And she said that we could set it up where sh- she found out first to make it happen. I don’t get it, and I’m not sure if I’m weird or wrong about this, but it makes me really uncomfortable. This is a thing that, assuming I do have it, has greatly affected me in negative ways my whole life.

[00:34:44] It’s something I’m struggling with and has caused issues even between her and me. I don’t like surprises. I hate having to mask and react as expected to everything while I’m under pressure. This is a very personal thing for me, and I’m struggling with how I, to feel about it to begin with. I also want to get this information first and not have my family know before me.

[00:35:02] Like, diagnosis is about me. I want to go to my appointment where I get my results and be able to talk about it, not have my sister go instead or something. I don’t know how that would work anyway. I don’t know if I’m reaching or thinking about this wrong. Like, maybe I should do what she wants to make her happy, but I hate this idea.

[00:35:19] It feels really insensitive.” And then I cut it short. And basically everyone in that thread is like, “No, your sister’s psychotic. Don’t do this.” Like, this sounds horrible. And if you think about it- No, what’s

[00:35:29] Malcolm Collins: funny is both of these people have psychologically, like, terrible ways of thinking about this.

[00:35:34] Simone Collins: Yes.

[00:35:35] Malcolm Collins: This person who’s, like, all whiny about it, like, “Oh, it’s been my struggle my entire life.” Yeah. And the sister who’s like, “Make it your new thing, hun.”

[00:35:43] Simone Collins: Yeah. But it, also, if you are autistic Do you like parties? Like, pr- probably not. Like, do you wanna be surrounded by yelling people who are all paying attention to you?

[00:35:56] Like, probably not. You know? The, it’s, it’s sensory [00:36:00] overload. Like, it’s not fun. You’re masking to try to make everyone happy at the party. Like, it’s super freakin’ stressful, so... especially for autism. I mean, like, I could get there b- I, I like your idea of an alcoholism reveal party. That sounds super fun.

[00:36:14] Like, the last hurrah. But yeah, this, this is horrible. The other issue that

[00:36:20] Malcolm Collins: I relate- This is... I mean, just the way our society, and this is one of the, the things that I hope people take away the most from this podcast, is- Mm-hmm ... you’re, if you have any sort of, like, mental disability or anything like that, like, it is deeply psychologically harmful to take it in either of these directions.

[00:36:35] Simone Collins: Yes.

[00:36:36] Malcolm Collins: Right? Yeah. Like, it’s, it’s z- like, any mental disability you have should be no different from, to you than, like, your skin color, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it’s, it’s just a thing. It’s, it’s a, it’s a part of who you are, it’s a part of how you think, it’s a part of how you relate to reality but it, it doesn’t matter other than that.

[00:36:53] And this i- this is how I mean, a lot of people relate to this stuff. You know, a lot of you know, you know, blind people or, or, or people who are bound to a wheelchair, or people who are whatever, the ones who are, like, psychologically healthily relating to it are just like, “It’s, like, whatever. It’s just part of who I am.”

[00:37:06] It’s like, you know, in the same way that you’re, you’re white or you’re X tall or you’re whatever and I just make it work, right? Mm-hmm. Like, because you don’t have a choice but to just make it work, you know?

[00:37:15] Simone Collins: Yeah, you’re dealt a hand. And you’re also dealt a hand in terms of, you know, your religious background, your ethnic background, the geography into which you’re born, the time into which you’re born, your parents, how cool or horrible they are, your siblings, how much money your family has the education you’ve acce- like, there’s all these things that you can’t...

[00:37:34] You just have to, like, look at your hand and do the best you can with it. Y- and you don’t get to choose. And especially I realize with, you know, autism as we’ve, like, raised our kids and things like d- s- dyslexia and ADHD, you can’t... This is super genetic. Like, you, you really can’t. Y- you d- this isn’t your fault.

[00:37:53] This is something that you inherited in, in your genes. It just, that’s how it

[00:37:58] Malcolm Collins: is. But again, I think the things that you inherit just are not really meaningfully, because you don’t y- you don’t choose them. Mm-hmm. Something that you don’t choose is, like, the least meaningful part of who you are.

[00:38:07] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:38:08] Malcolm Collins: Right?

[00:38:08] Simone Collins: But how you choose to deal with it is meaningful, and to deal with it as like, “Well, this means I don’t have to do anything in my entire life ‘cause I’m disabled” is the complete worst thing you could possibly do.

[00:38:19] Speaker 5: Hello? Hello. You are right now. Um, do you need help? I’m disabled.

[00:38:44] Malcolm Collins: Oh my God, could we get disability money?

[00:38:46] Simone Collins: What do you mean? Why? Because you’re full of all the disabilities?

[00:38:49] Well, don’t

[00:38:49] Malcolm Collins: they, like, give disabled people money or

[00:38:51] Simone Collins: something? So actually yes. No, not really. So, mm, interest-free investment is basically the best option we have. Because I am, for example, actually diagnosed with autism which it can be, like, I guess legally construed as a d- d- disa- sorry, debilitating mental illness and, ‘cause I can’t open doors.

[00:39:10] I have a, a PA ABLE account, and our autistic kids who are diagnosed do as well, which means only the kids who are diagnosed. And that is an account that is meant for disabled people as like sort of a, a, a life support and saving account that like with retirement accounts, the, the interest on it isn’t taxed.

[00:39:27] So it can, you know, it’s, it’s like a tax advantaged savings account basically.

[00:39:31] Malcolm Collins: That y- that, and it can only be spent on certain things or it can be spent on anything?

[00:39:34] Simone Collins: It can only be sp- yeah, it has to be spent on, on... But it can, you, you can spend it on, like, housing. So, like, you could spend it on, like, your property taxes or your rent.

[00:39:41] Malcolm Collins: Functionally anything.

[00:39:43] Simone Collins: Yeah, like food. Yeah, like the stuff that you need-

[00:39:44] Malcolm Collins: Wait, that’s crazy. Autistic people get to invest without paying taxes?

[00:39:47] Simone Collins: Well, no, no, no. So there’s a limit. I think you can only put in $20,000 a year. So you can ma- you can try to max out that account every year. I’ve maxed out what we can put in for our kids.

[00:39:57] The, the, the, the two that are actually diagnosed. [00:40:00] And so there are advantages like that 100%, and that’s I think why a lot of people get these diagnoses. But I think a lot of them just

[00:40:06] Malcolm Collins: get- That’s a f*****g wild loophole. That is a wild loophole.

[00:40:10] Simone Collins: Yeah. You wanna get diagnosed with something, you go ahead, Malcolm.

[00:40:16] I you, you don’t have- I’ve never,

[00:40:18] Malcolm Collins: I’ve never been

[00:40:19] Simone Collins: tested for, for- Don’t have a touch of the ‘tism. You don’t. Yeah ... autism. We, we’ll have to figure something else out for you. We’ll figure out what qualifies you for tax advantaged ABLE accounts. God. Okay. But, but the other issue is that, of course, this, this makes a disability aspirational to those who do not have disabilities.

[00:40:39] And there’s this one Redditor in autism in women who posted about her autism reveal party saying, “Hi, officially diagnosed yesterday at 26 years old. I hosted an autism reveal party, and though the community... and thought the community would appreciate it. My friends dressed up as my special interests and, and I served all of my favorite foods.

[00:40:59] I made everyone cupcakes and told them it was vanilla. Neurotypical, funfetti. Neurospicy. My name’s Amanda, and for the first time, I have autism. Heart emoji, cupcake emoji.” And then she posted photos of her eating her autism cupcakes on her granite kitchen counter and her autism infinity symbol themed charcuterie board.

[00:41:23] And her, her sweatshirt is embroidered with the word overestimated. I’m, I’m not sure what she’s signaling with that, but I don’t know. But so the top voted comment on her post is, “Oh my God, this is absolutely precious. I would give anything for a diagnosis. It would be so validating. Congratulations, I am truly happy for you.”

[00:41:44] It sounds like- I would give

[00:41:45] Malcolm Collins: anything for a diag- These people.

[00:41:47] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that’s, that’s what makes me like, oh.

[00:41:52] Malcolm Collins: You are who you are,

[00:41:53] Simone Collins: whether or not you have a diagnosis. Yeah, like the diag- well, but I mean, at the same time, I just told you how, like, a diagnosis can give you tax advantaged accounts and

[00:42:00] Malcolm Collins: True, yeah.

[00:42:02] Simone Collins: I don’t, I don’t know, man. But, like, to have a party about it. I, I, yeah, I guess if someone’s like, “Gosh, I mean, I, I max out my Roth IRA every year, and I max out my HSA account, and I have, I still have excess money I wanna save. If only I had a PA ABLE account or, like, an ABLE account, then I could save even more with tax advantaged benefits, but whatever.

[00:42:28] It’s weird. I’m delighted by the fact that there’s a huge party format that I didn’t know about that I can now watch videos about. And yes, this is my tubes, along with Kele Hammer’s show, which I freaking love.

[00:42:40] Malcolm Collins: This is your tubes. Mm-hmm. I love it. I love that the, we’re, we’re, we’re watching the tubes.

[00:42:45] We’re watching their brains get mauled. It is freaking hilarious. It is fantastic. It is so joyous. You know, so many people think that like... This reminds me of like what I loved to do back in the day when I, you know, could have fun on the internet and, and Reddit’s like this. And this sort of feels like that to me, like when I

[00:43:03] Simone Collins: worked at- Do you, you don’t have fun on the internet watching your MAWAs vibe coding?

[00:43:08] Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, I, I like my MA- I, my, I like my WAs. I, I, I like vibe coding. But you know, there’s no like fat hate or Tumblr in action anymore, right? Like, you’d go to Tumblr in action and you’d find out some new way that progressives are being crazy. And I loved this like even back when I considered myself a Democrat, right?

[00:43:24] Like I was- I know,

[00:43:26] Simone Collins: I

[00:43:26] Malcolm Collins: know ... I was like proto. I was an egg for becoming a far right chud or whatever. I

[00:43:31] Simone Collins: know. I

[00:43:32] Malcolm Collins: know. Then I was laughing at people who were too fat to get their fMRI and they had to go to the zoo, and somebody found that. And they posted that in a Yahoo News article about me. That my account had laughed at people on Fatkin Blade.

[00:43:43] Simone Collins: And when I read that out of the blue, ‘cause I didn’t know that you post. I don’t know what you post on a Reddit,

[00:43:48] Malcolm Collins: you know? Like- I don’t know how they found it. I don’t know. I mean, they must have gone deep, but yeah, I mean-

[00:43:51] Simone Collins: Well, when I read that I laughed out loud ‘

[00:43:56] Malcolm Collins: cause it was so funny. I had no idea you posted that.

[00:43:56] But these sites were so good at tracking these random losers [00:44:00] online. Like, Reagan Christian, the fat, fat healthy activist, right? Like, that being, being fat and she was a hate activist. Hate Healthy As Healthy,

[00:44:08] Simone Collins: yeah.

[00:44:08] Malcolm Collins: And she was so fun to follow ‘cause it’s not like she had like a big following or something, but she just repeatedly would say she was going to do things like marathons, and then very blatantly cheat in the marathon.

[00:44:21] Like it was very obvious given like the way the timestamps, because they’d like do investigations.

[00:44:25] Simone Collins: Oh, no. That

[00:44:26] Malcolm Collins: she had gotten in a car and driven most of the marathon. Oh dear. Oh

[00:44:29] Simone Collins: dear. Oh dear ... just

[00:44:30] Malcolm Collins: like over, and o- or, or she wouldn’t show up if there was like monitoring that day. Or she’d, you know, randomly...

[00:44:36] And it was always just deflection about the state of things, right? And I don’t know, I don’t know what happened. And so many of the people we used to follow died in, in fat community. Yeah,

[00:44:46] Simone Collins: a lot died, and then a lot stopped posting because they discovered peptides. So-

[00:44:54] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that really, peptides really fucked up the Hays community, right?

[00:44:58] ‘Cause all the influencers with the money started to be like, “Well-” Yeah,

[00:45:01] Simone Collins: as soon as there was a cure for fat, we, “

[00:45:03] Malcolm Collins: Now that I can lose weight and, and without self-control, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t wanna die young.” But yeah, very f****n’ th- that, that just used to be like a thing on the internet.

[00:45:19] Looking at the glass of like, the cr- I enjoyed the craziness of Tumblr. In fact, I still... Like, Strange Aeons is basically a channel that goes through old crazy stuff that happened on Tumblr. Oh

[00:45:28] Simone Collins: my gosh, yeah.

[00:45:29] Malcolm Collins: A fantastic channel by the way, if you like those sorts of stories. She’s so much fun. But she still considers herself, like, part of that community.

[00:45:35] She hasn’t like-

[00:45:36] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:45:36] Malcolm Collins: had, had the reflection of like, “Wait. Is the toxicity of this community, did it go all the way to my life? Like, did I never emerge from the muck? Like, am, am I-”

[00:45:47] Simone Collins: She seems to be doing well, you know? She has a, a committed partner. They have their- Yeah ... gremlin cats. What do they call them?

[00:45:54] Malcolm Collins: Whatever. She, she, she’s, she’s got her... She’s in a committed gay relationship with a bunch of cats

[00:46:00] Speaker 22: She’ll become a crazy cat lady.

[00:46:02] Speaker 23: She only has one cat.

[00:46:04] Speaker 22: Give her time.

[00:46:06] Malcolm Collins: which is, you know- Livin’ the

[00:46:07] Simone Collins: life, man ...

[00:46:07] Malcolm Collins: about as- With your

[00:46:08] Simone Collins: cozy

[00:46:08] Malcolm Collins: ass cheeks and her- ... reasonably healthy as you can get in that, in that world, right?

[00:46:11] Simone Collins: Yeah. No, it’s good.

[00:46:11] I’m happy. I’m ha- I’m very happy for them.

[00:46:13] No,

[00:46:14] Malcolm Collins: she, she- I love them. They’re so great ... she’s also a very good creator. I think she’s, She’s

[00:46:16] Simone Collins: a fantastic creator ...

[00:46:17] Malcolm Collins: her, her videos are well done in terms of pacing- Mm-hmm ... delivery- Mm-hmm ... interjections. She do- she talks at the right speed so it doesn’t feel like she’s wasting my time. Yeah. She doesn’t fill up with like random nonsense that’s unimportant.

[00:46:30] And she’s

[00:46:30] Simone Collins: a fun person. Like, her personality, like even if she was talking about something super boring she’d still be fun to listen to. And then she just finds the weirdest stuff, like the guy in the bathroom re- remodeling.

[00:46:41] Malcolm Collins: Oh, I, I found- F*****g weird ... those recent ones less interesting. I like her older, like the rabiosexual one.

[00:46:45] I

[00:46:45] Simone Collins: could listen to her talking about paint drying, okay? It’s fine.

[00:46:49] Malcolm Collins: L- go search the one on the rabiosexual phenomenon on Tumblr where people thought- No,

[00:46:52] Simone Collins: I’ve, I’ve watched all of her videos. I’m well versed ...

[00:46:54] Malcolm Collins: rabies was a sexuality. Yeah. And you had to... Just feeling a little, And people had to explain to them that it’s like the most horrible way to die.

[00:47:03] Do not go out and bug catch rabies. You know, people with AIDS are like, “Bro, like AIDS is bad, but like rabies?”

[00:47:11] Simone Collins: That’s so good.

[00:47:11] Malcolm Collins: You’re gonna go out in the woods and get bit by a raccoon?

[00:47:16] Simone Collins: So good. So good. So good.

[00:47:17] Malcolm Collins: I, I don’t... I love, I love the tubes. I just love it, and I love the tubes- The tubes. The tubes ... when they just completely die like idiots.

[00:47:25] And, and, and not passing on your genes is fundamentally dying, so like that’s what we’re watching here, right? Oh

[00:47:30] Simone Collins: my God.

[00:47:31] Malcolm Collins: These people- We are watching the

[00:47:31] Simone Collins: tubes ...

[00:47:32] Malcolm Collins: th- these are, these are the Darwinistic tubes. This is, this is the Darwin Awards of the tubes. The when we, when we see Anita Sarkeesian get married to herself, that’s the tubes.

[00:47:43] We’re watching, we’re like, “Wow, that one was a real psycho. Watching that go down.”

[00:47:48] Simone Collins: Oh, God. Well, and now that AI video hits super different.

[00:47:52] Malcolm Collins: I, you know, well, a- actually I, with the tubes, I feel like The Hunger Games. I’m the guy there, there’s like little places that [00:48:00] you can like attach things, like buying hornets to like release into the tube just to make it more hilarious.

[00:48:06] Oh my God. Just to watch them run around.

[00:48:11] Simone Collins: This is horrible. This is horrible. Oh.

[00:48:14] Malcolm Collins: Well, thank you for sharing this with me. You have made my life better on two fronts, the tubes and, and people dying in the tubes.

[00:48:21] Simone Collins: You’re so welcome. I’ve been looking forward to this all day. This was... The moment Sarah sent us that link I was like, “No, we have to do this.

[00:48:28] We have to do this.”

[00:48:30] Malcolm Collins: This is, this is fantastic. This is fantastic. And for all of you who are watching this, your disabilities do not cucking matter. I, I don’t care, I don’t care if you are a little person, I don’t care if they’re bl- if you’re blind. I don’t care if you’re just

[00:48:43] Simone Collins: like a actual retard. Oh, we have, we have a blind listener.

[00:48:44] Hi. Oh, I, I’m waving. Hi.

[00:48:49] Malcolm Collins: We got... I love it. You, you, you’re waving at the one

[00:48:53] Simone Collins: cucking blind listener. So sorry. Respect, sir. We, yeah, we’re... Shout out.

[00:48:57] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ... actually now that I’m just thinking about it, AI must be such a cucking game changer for blind people.

[00:49:03] Simone Collins: It is.

[00:49:03] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s gotta be. Because it’s gonna really change the...

[00:49:06] Like if I was blind, with AI I’d just constantly be building tech to make it, like cool stuff that I wasn’t able to do before.

[00:49:12] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:49:12] 100%. Yeah. But- Because AI vision is, is getting so good.

[00:49:15] Malcolm Collins: I, Mm. What I was just thinking about is like, “Oh, how would I handle the YouTube UI if I was blind?” Like, how would, how would a blind person discover our podcast?

[00:49:22] And then I was like, “Oh, I could build such a cool system with AI to, to automate all of that.”

[00:49:26] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:49:27] Malcolm Collins: And to make that. That’s, that’s pretty... But yeah, the point being is like none of this stuff matters to who you are, right? Like, none-

[00:49:32] Simone Collins: Well, it only matters in so far as you have to look at your hand to decide your next move smartly.

[00:49:36] And your next move isn’t give up. So that’s it. That’s it. You know?

[00:49:42] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. We, we, we had a, you know, this reporter asking, “What, what are you gonna do if this next implantation doesn’t take?” And I was like, “I’m gonna try again?” Like, what do you mean what am I gonna do? Like, that all, that’s all you can do in life.

[00:49:57] Simone Collins: Yeah. No, but like genuinely people are like, “Why are... Why don’t you give up?” Why don’t, why don’t we give up?

[00:50:05] Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

[00:50:05] Simone Collins: I’ll

[00:50:05] Malcolm Collins: give up. Let’s. Sure, that’s a very Malcolm thing to do.

[00:50:08] Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, “Oh, sorry, this is hard. We’re not gonna do it anymore,” you know?

[00:50:15] Malcolm Collins: Having done that with... I know, like, l- literally, that’s, like, our personality.

[00:50:19] We take on something that’s, like, pointlessly hard, like the RFAB project or, like, the leaflet streams or, like, doing this podcast every day of the week and we’re just like, “No, I’m gonna f- I’m gonna f*****g make it work. I’m gonna make it work.” And that, like, doubles the chance that we do it.

[00:50:32] Simone Collins: Yeah, man.

[00:50:33] That’s true. That’s true. And I think that’s, that’s actually super common across the life stories of the people who listen to this podcast, too, whenever we learn more about them. It’s like, oh, these are the people who choose the hard thing. These are the people who enter the tubes for fun, ‘cause they’re like, “You know what?”

[00:50:46] For

[00:50:46] Malcolm Collins: fun, right?

[00:50:46] Simone Collins: It’s a good deal. I know. It’s a good deal, plus it’ll be fun. No,

[00:50:48] Malcolm Collins: I, I, I, I you know, go into the tubes in a way that, like, gave me a significant advantage. Like, I’d put all the money I would’ve spent on buying my way into the city to get, like, laser guns and, and, like- ... you know, arm- th- th- fr- fricking, like, m- what is it?

[00:51:06] Like, tech suit armor and stuff like this, you know? And power suit, power suit armor. Go in and just, like, th- beat the sh- out of, like, bears and any other person on my path in the tube, just, like...

[00:51:17] Simone Collins: Ah, yes, underrated element of the tubes. You can also just hunt humans for sport within it because-

[00:51:23] Malcolm Collins: That would be so fun.

[00:51:24] That’s, like, my number one thing. You’re

[00:51:26] Simone Collins: right. Like, actually, the more realistic depiction of the tubes, it wouldn’t be the rich people on the outside, it’d be rich people on the inside just taking them all out, because they’re like, “Wait a second. Why am I watching this? I could be in there.”

[00:51:37] Malcolm Collins: Why am I on the outside?

[00:51:39] Oh, God. I should be on the inside.

[00:51:40] Simone Collins: We’re not helping the perceptions of all the socialists, leftists who hate people on the right

[00:51:47] Malcolm Collins: with that. Well, I, I don’t think, I don’t think this is because... I w- you know, I was on the leaflet stream and I was reading the account of, like, the rough and tumble fights that they used to have in the part of the America we’re from.

[00:51:56] Yeah, the,

[00:51:57] Simone Collins: the, the eye gouging,

[00:51:58] Malcolm Collins: yeah. And it’s like, the moment everyone knew the fight was gonna happen, [00:52:00] apparently the entire town showed up to watch, and the one guy bit the other guy’s nose off, and the other guy tore the guy’s cheek down all the way so it’s just, like, flapping off. And I’m like, “This is what my ancestors...”

[00:52:12] The people who didn’t like this stuff, they weren’t like-

[00:52:15] Simone Collins: They

[00:52:15] Malcolm Collins: died ... “

[00:52:15] Simone Collins: Whoo!

[00:52:16] Malcolm Collins: You go. Get f*****g bear on, going to town on a guy.” Like, the people who were, like, grossed out by this stuff, they left the, the regions that my ancestors were in.

[00:52:26] Simone Collins: Yeah, they did. They selected out.

[00:52:27] Malcolm Collins: My ancestors were, like violence maxed-

[00:52:31] In terms of, like, innate desires.

[00:52:33] Simone Collins: Mm,

[00:52:33] Malcolm Collins: yeah. So thank God I have AI, right? You know, very, very fun stuff you can do with AI if, if your, if your brain accidentally got violence maxed.

[00:52:43] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I think that that’s a, maybe a separate episode. The, that they’re, it’s not about people who have violent instincts.

[00:52:52] It’s about having the lack of intelligence to not act on them- Yeah ... that’s dangerous. That like, it’s actually super okay for people to have violent instincts because if you’re not an idiot, you won’t act on them and get caught. Oh

[00:53:07] Malcolm Collins: yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s the same thing of being like, it’s okay to think someone is hot.

[00:53:12] You don’t have to rape them.

[00:53:13] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:53:14] Malcolm Collins: Right? Like-

[00:53:14] Simone Collins: Exactly. Yes. Yeah, yeah. It’s having the good sense to-

[00:53:17] Malcolm Collins: Actually, like fans are like weird. They’re like this happened on the Leaflet stream. So it’s like, “Do, do you have a crush on Leaflet?” Right? Like, like accusatorily. Like, it’s weird

[00:53:25] Simone Collins: that I’m talking to somebody- Who doesn’t have a crush on Leaflet, though?

[00:53:27] I...

[00:53:27] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Come on. Like her personality, I, I can’t see what she looks like, but her personality is objectively attractive. I mean, that’s why you’re all here too.

[00:53:34] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:53:35] Malcolm Collins: That doesn’t mean that

[00:53:36] Simone Collins: I’m like- Everyone in the stream ...

[00:53:36] Malcolm Collins: creping on her or something. Or like, I’m thinking about hooking... Like, the, do you not understand that like, you can have like a committed relationship to a wife and that doesn’t immediately make no one else in the world hot to you?

[00:53:49] Like the other- It was

[00:53:49] Simone Collins: what Mike Pence was like that, right? Or that was his thing? Yeah.

[00:53:52] Malcolm Collins: He’s like, “I, I can’t go to a dinner with someone because I cannot control myself

[00:53:56] Simone Collins: around a woman.” He can’t control himself. Yeah. That is,

[00:53:57] Yikes ...

[00:53:57] Malcolm Collins: it’s like, what, what... Guys, you can have instincts and just not listen to them, or better than even not listening to them, use them to fuel an alternate behavioral pattern.

[00:54:11] Simone Collins: For real.

[00:54:12] Malcolm Collins: So the, what I’d say is every time you look at something and you think that’s hot, that, remind yourself that’s your brain telling you that you should be having children. Every single arousal pathway you’ve ever sent is your brain trying to get you to go out there and have children, or exterminate your genetic competition.

[00:54:30] Because that, that pathway appears to use some of the arousal stuff as well. That, that is... So don’t, don’t, you know, go, “Oh, then I’m gonna do what that pathway is telling me to do.” Go like, “Oh, but what’s the downstream effect that that pathway is telling me to do?” Right? Which is fi- go, go out and find a spouse.

[00:54:47] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm

[00:54:50] Malcolm Collins: Or treat your spouse better, you know, whatever. Anyway, love you.

[00:54:55] Simone Collins: I love you too.

[00:54:58] Can you hear the kids downstairs-

[00:55:01] Malcolm Collins: What are they doing? ... losing their minds?

[00:55:03] Simone Collins: They’re screaming.

[00:55:04] Malcolm Collins: I mean, I hear the screaming and the occasional thud.

[00:55:07] Simone Collins: Can you tell they’ve inherited a bit of you? Anyway. All right.

[00:55:11] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Every night, hold on, every night when I go to bed, it’s, “Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, fight. Fight me. I won’t give you my iPad unless you fight me.”

[00:55:22] And then at the end of the night they’re like, “Daddy, so don’t go... Before you hug me, come on, hug me.” And I go, I hug them, and they jump on me and they’re like, “I, I got him.” “Take him down.”

[00:55:33] Simone Collins: The house, and I’m not exaggerating, the house literally shakes. Like, even if I have earplugs in. No, now they’ve learned- I- it’s like airplane turbulence

[00:55:40] how to

[00:55:40] Malcolm Collins: tell Alexa to play the Mortal Kombat t- theme song, so they do that every night.

[00:55:44] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Now they’ve finally seen Mortal Kombat, so they understand the context. Cultural literacy. Cultural. Very important. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye bye bye. Bye bye

[00:55:57] bye.

[00:55:58] Malcolm Collins: And, Oh my

[00:55:58] Simone Collins: God, there’s a bee in my room.

[00:55:59] [00:56:00] Okay.

[00:56:00] Malcolm Collins: Did you reach out to Romie about, like, doing something together

[00:56:02] Simone Collins: or? Romie. I have it. I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna catch this hornet real quick.

[00:56:07] Malcolm Collins: Hello. She’s just gonna

[00:56:09] Simone Collins: hang out with me. Oh, she

[00:56:15] makes quite the sound of

[00:56:17] tinkering, tinkling on her... God, okay. Well, this is gonna be disturbing, sitting right next to a, a very angry hornet. Maybe it will make podcasting better.

[00:56:28] Malcolm Collins: Did you, d- so you didn’t kill it or are you not taking it

[00:56:30] Simone Collins: out? Oh, I could... You know what? I’m just gonna open... I’m so sorry. I’m gonna open a window and let her out anyway, oh, speaking of biting i- insects I got the initial answer back on the ticks that I sent in for testing thanks to Eric, and they’re American dog ticks. They’re not-

[00:56:48] Malcolm Collins: The, that’s the largest form of tick.

[00:56:51] Simone Collins: Oh, is it?

[00:56:52] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The, the Ameri- I, I asked in Pennsylvania, what’s the, what, what, what are what, what could a large brown tick be?

[00:56:58] And the American dog tick is the largest form of tick.

[00:57:01] Simone Collins: Well, the two other ticks that have provably come back on the kids that I’ve taken off and that we just sent in to sampling are those, so that probably means that’s what we have around our house, hopefully.

[00:57:12] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The the dangerous tick varieties are the lone star tick, which give, has a meat-eating disease, and deer ticks, which have Lyme disease.

[00:57:20] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. So phew. I mean, they still have two other diseases, but now I know what to look for, and they’re not, you know, I mean, they, they are pretty bad if... Anyway. The more you know. Okay, I’m gonna get started. I’m so pre- super stoked for this.

[00:57:36] Malcolm Collins: Can I do the you, you haven’t, you’ve refused to tell me about this all day start?

[00:57:41] Simone Collins: Yeah, sure. You always do this.

[00:57:46] Speaker 19: You wanna battle?

[00:58:20] You wanna be on my team?

[00:58:34] Tosi

[00:58:37] What is it?

[00:58:41] Octavian, toast the other question

[00:59:01] Speaker 20: Come back to me? We’ll be hit by copyright claims if I do that

In this episode Malcolm and Simone discuss two massive bestsellers that took the Spanish-speaking world by storm: Marry and Be Submissive (for women) and its companion Lay Down Your Life for Her (for men). Written by Catholic author Costanza Miriano, the books became instant #1 hits — then faced years of protests, public book burnings, political demands for withdrawal, and accusations of promoting “violence against women.”

We examine the actual content (far milder than the outrage suggests), the deliberate mistranslation of “mortification,” the biblical framework from Ephesians 5, and why the message resonates with so many women. We also break down where we agree with the books, where we culturally diverge, and what the hysterical reaction reveals about the urban monoculture’s elevation of personal hedonic desire as the highest good.

Topics include complementary (not identical) roles, the redefinition of submission as strong foundation rather than doormat, the crisis of male passivity, why pure democracy in marriage backfires, love as decision rather than feeling, and the healthiest framing of family as a shared “Firm” or clan with collective goals that supersede individual preference.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today, we are going to be talking about a couple books that became bestsellers in the Spanish-speaking world, particularly in Spain, and caused a huge controversy. So-

[00:00:13] Simone Collins: Like just now? Like in 2026?

[00:00:15] Malcolm Collins: Actually, they were released in 2011 and they have increased almost immediately they became the top seller on Amazon.

[00:00:22] And then they they’ve been increasingly trying to ban them for a really long time. They’ve been try- doing these big things where they walk around town and rip them apart.

[00:00:30] And you’ll understand why when you hear their name.

[00:00:32] Simone Collins: Walk around town and rip them

[00:00:34] Malcolm Collins: apart ... the, the name of the first book, which is for women and is popular amongst women, it’s not like unpopular amongst men, is called Marry and Be Submissive.

[00:00:42] And women apparently really like this book. And then the second book, which is for men, and surprisingly people haven’t been protesting, is Lay Down Your Life for Her. And the- It’s so good ... they’re, they’re written as a, as a comp- I also love it too, like w- they’re like, oh, what’s asked of women in the women’s book, first of all, though you’re like, “Oh, it’s abusive.”

[00:01:03] I, I, I looked into it as much as I could. Nowhere in the book is abuse mentioned anywhere, but they act as if the book is promoting physical abuse simply because it asks women to be s- to submit to their husbands as the Bible says. This is a very Catholic book written by Catholics. And I’m, what I wanna take this episode to do is to, one, go over the key points of the book to- Hmm

[00:01:25] sort of, better understand the message it’s trying to convey, why this is resonating with so many women in these countries. Okay. And then go over well, and while we’re doing it, go over where I disagree. And I’d actually say that most of the areas I d- or no, literally all of the areas in which I disagree with the book, it is a mere cultural disagreement about the role of women in a family.

[00:01:48] Oh. Which in Catholic culture is simply more submissive than it is in the, the various cultural traditions of the United States. Okay. So, th- that, that’s what we’ll go into.

[00:01:59] A side note, by the way, the woman who wrote this is both very pro-natalist, she has a lot of kids, and she appears to be a really sweet person

[00:02:08] Speaker: my four children, I’m at lesson number two. So the cat is under the table, so I’m sorry. And I, I, I don’t know the coloring the word has in English, but I, I don’t use it in a negative way. It’s a word taken from the letter of St. Paul to the Ephesians, and it doesn’t mean in any, any way being, uh, li- like a doormat for, for the husband.

[00:02:37] I use it in a, the etymological sense of being beneath, , or underneath. , And so providing the support , like , a column supports a roof

[00:02:49]

[00:02:49] Malcolm Collins: But let’s go over some of the lines that they’ve been freaking out about.

[00:02:52] Simone Collins: Okay.

[00:02:52] Malcolm Collins: Lines like, “Like humiliation because it is for the greater good.”

[00:02:58] And then, “To listen to your husband’s words as if God is speaking.” Now- What we’re gonna go into here is actually the first one that everyone’s been freaking out about, which is like humiliation, is an intentional mistranslation that people have been using to freak out about the book. Oh. And they’ve been quoting that line, even in Spanish it could look like the word humiliation, but the actual word is, and you’re familiar with the word probably, Simone, mortification is the word that’s used here.

[00:03:25] Oh,

[00:03:26] Simone Collins: come on.

[00:03:28] Malcolm Collins: And so it goes, “We like mortification because it for, it is for achieving a greater good, and that greater good is to welcome your husband, and therefore to give birth to yourself again, regenerate yourself.” That is not a particularly offensive line that- How are

[00:03:44] Simone Collins: they mistranslating that?

[00:03:45] Isn’t it mortificación? Like, how do you like... They’re semi-cognates. You can’t... Wait, is that... How can this be? Are they just being that crazy in, in trying to freak us- Sorry, for

[00:03:58] Malcolm Collins: people who don’t know, Simone speaks fluent Spanish. [00:04:00] That’s why she’s freaking out about this I’m

[00:04:01] Simone Collins: just checking, but I, I don’t know.

[00:04:02] I don’t use that. I use other language when I speak. So mortification, Spanish. Yeah, mortificación. Okay, so there’s no way you can misinterpret that. Like...

[00:04:15] Malcolm Collins: So even you, if, if you heard that as a, as a Spanish speaker- Welcome.

[00:04:17] Simone Collins: If you saw the word mortificación, what do you think it means? I mean...

[00:04:24] Malcolm Collins: Not humilia- I mean, I, I, I would think of DSM stuff is- Yeah, you

[00:04:27] Simone Collins: would think it means mortification because it’s a semi-cognate.

[00:04:30] Malcolm Collins: It’s, oh, because it’s a semi-cognate to the word in English mortification. Yeah. Well, most people don’t know the word mortification in English I mean, I always think of it as sort of a Catholic thing. But in English language- That’s a mortified word. People use it all the time. That’s, this is a normal word

[00:04:41] So in, in Catholic spiritual language or, or Spanish more broadly mortification is a traditional term. It does not mean enjoying physical or sexual humiliation, abuse, or degradation. No. It refers to the deliberate practice of denying one’s own will- Yes ... pride, ego or immediate comfort for higher spiritual purpose following Christ, growing in virtue, and loving others more selflessly.

[00:05:03] Classic examples include accepting small daily inconveniences, biting one’s tongue, and accepting correction without defensiveness, or putting someone else’s preferences first. Which is kind of a great advice for a woman getting into a marriage, right?

[00:05:18] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:05:18] Malcolm Collins: Like, but what I find, what I find so f- fascinating about this backlash and this absolute panic, some of which has come from the Catholic Church as well.

[00:05:27] We’ll have a few bishops here, quotes from them- Okay ... about how this doesn’t reflect the church’s teachings to women at all. And like- Mm-hmm ... no, it, it kind of does, first of all. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I mean, at least the traditional church’s teachings. Maybe not whatever you’re teaching. Like, whatever the church is doing today.

[00:05:43] But you know, traditionally. The book really doesn’t, if you go into it, it’s... This is not like 50 Shade of Grey, which did not get these protests or anything like that. It’s, it’s literally just telling both husbands and wives that you need to dedicate your life to your partner and to being a good partner to your partner.

[00:06:03] Actually, only to wives. To wives it says be submission. To men it says lay down your entire life for your wife, right? Both of which I think are, are fairly good pieces of advice. But the, what’s fascinating is that leftists, and even some people on the right have been speaking against this, ‘cause this has gone o- over the party line in, despite being a bestseller.

[00:06:21] Really? Are, are saying that this book represents violence and abuse to women. What is interesting is what they are showing there is the idea of a woman being or, or submitting to her husband is the idea that they found violence in, in the

[00:06:40] Simone Collins: book. Yeah, well, that, that a woman would sublimate herself, I think more broadly, that a woman would sublimate herself to anyone except her own personal hedonic desires.

[00:06:52] So I mean also a woman, a woman subjugating herself, or sorry sublimating herself to God, for example. That would also be bad. Sublimating yourself to children, sublimating yourself to God. S- Anything aside from, like, your own status, identity, and comfort is- Actually- ... considered bad ...

[00:07:13] Malcolm Collins: it’s, it’s funny that you mention that, because I think you just hit on something that’s very spiritually true about the urban monoculture.

[00:07:21] But I had never isolated it so, loud. Hmm. Which is to say, you know, if you’re a Christian, right, you submit to God, right? Like, if you’re a, you know, Muslim, you submit to Allah. If you’re a, right, w- whatever thing you are, it’s, it generally involves some degree of submission-

[00:07:39] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:07:40] Malcolm Collins: to that thing.

[00:07:41] Simone Collins: Well, it

[00:07:41] Malcolm Collins: should

[00:07:41] Simone Collins: if you’re doing

[00:07:42] Malcolm Collins: it right It should.

[00:07:43] Simone Collins: Yes.

[00:07:43] Malcolm Collins: The, the urban monoculture literally treats personal desires, because that’s what you’re submissive to-

[00:07:51] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm ...

[00:07:52] Malcolm Collins: as their god. Hmm ... it, it is, it is literally a religious and theological [00:08:00] framework downstream of the most pure form of hedonism possible. I had never really thought about hedonism historically, ‘cause I thought of it as just like, well, d- do the thing.

[00:08:15] It’s just like you do the things that make you feel good. But it is actually a form of worship of Pleasure

[00:08:26] Simone Collins: Yeah, I think that’s accurate. Yeah

[00:08:29] Malcolm Collins: And pleasure here being you know, what, what, what is that at the end of the day? It’s sort of like e- from their own perspective the things that led to your ancestors having more surviving offspring than other, th- th- than their peers, right?

[00:08:44] Like, a very, a very it, it’s interesting to me as well as, as how hollow pleasure is within an entirely secular perspective, and yet to still pedestalize it to that extent. Hmm. I, like that was the realization that basically put me down the whole path to like my modern philosophical framing, and I’ve always really struggled with how so many people just are like, “Well, feeling good is obviously an intrinsically good thing.”

[00:09:12] Right? Like, I’ve always been very surprised by that, but let’s give a very interesting point here, Simone. So, the book is written very interestingly. It’s like a series of like anecdotes about her life and very, very Catholically. We’ll, we’ll get to that in a second. Like it’s, it’s not a, a structured book.

[00:09:27] It’s not like even a list of advice.

[00:09:29] Simone Collins: Actually, that sounds like a very, very common self-help format. You would just never know because I don’t think you’ve ever read a single self-help book in your life .

[00:09:36] Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah. No, it’s, it is. Yeah. And quotes from the Bible. Specifically Ephesians 5 dynamic is what it’s all about where husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

[00:09:48] So literally asking for self-sacrifice on behalf of the husband which I find so interesting that just like nobody’s like, “It’s asking men to go too far.” So let’s go over all the, the points in it and talk about where we agree, where we disagree. And I, well, first of all, on the, the, the male framing here I, I would like, and we’ll get to the, the points they make in the book for men as well.

[00:10:09] I will note that, yes, this is a biblical framework for how to treat your, your life and your relationship as a male. Hmm. But I think it’s also important to remember that there are things biblical or non-biblically framed that are more important than your partner which is, it- from my perspective, your shared goals.

[00:10:30] And I think that there is a, And your children. Your children are more important than your partner, and your shared goals are more- 100% ... important than your partner.

[00:10:38] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:10:38] Malcolm Collins: And I think that it is possible to accidentally overly end up focusing on these questions, these framings as they relate to your partner.

[00:10:50] Like, if you as a male live your entire life just dedicated to your wife, right, rather than you and your wife’s shared goals, I think you’ve lived a pretty selfish life, if I’m gonna be honest. But what’s interesting is I don’t think that you can truly dedicate your entire life to your wife and still have that life have been a positive one from the perspective of even dedicating to her.

[00:11:15] Because what, what what does it mean to dedicate your life to her? To dedicate your life to her pleasure? Like, obviously, that’s not what’s being talked about here, right? It’s, it’s, it’s her goals for herself within the wider sort of moral framing that you both have as a married couple.

[00:11:30] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:31] Malcolm Collins: Which would presumably, because you’re not in the urban monoculture, are not just her pleasure and her desires.

[00:11:36] Simone Collins: Presumably , yeah.

[00:11:39] Malcolm Collins: So the first core point that the book makes is men and women have equal dignity, but are profoundly different. Complimentary, not sameness. Show you that treating the sexes as interchangeable creates frustration and unhappiness. Women are naturally oriented towards reception, relationship, and support, and men towards initiative, guidance, and outward [00:12:00] action.

[00:12:00] Simone Collins: Yeah- It’s just so funny to me that people make this point now. Like, e- even just 100 years ago, or, or like i- ... 100 years ago and beyond, if, if someone, if we had to tell someone, “Look, this is, this is an important point to make to people in our time,” they’re gonna be like, “Are you guys...

[00:12:16] What happened?”

[00:12:17] Malcolm Collins: No, they, like, they would think that you had to make the point, that you would even mention this-

[00:12:22] Simone Collins: Yeah, like- ...

[00:12:23] Malcolm Collins: that you might be mentally ill.

[00:12:24] Simone Collins: Yeah, is the future of humanity just... They would, th- we, we are Idiocracy. This is Idiocracy.

[00:12:31] Malcolm Collins: And we pointed out in another episode, if you look at preferences for different t- sorts of chores and tasks around the house and everything like that women typically prefer the preferences that mo- like, they prefer cleaning, they prefer cooking, they prefer a few other things.

[00:12:45] Simone Collins: Yeah, we did a whole episode on that. It was, it was really interesting, the research that was done. Yeah,

[00:12:49] Malcolm Collins: yeah. The things that we think of as stereotypically female are stereotypically female because on average, women prefer those things. I, I will note in, in relation to all of this, is that not all women, obviously.

[00:13:02] There, there are outliers. We often push the idea of we call a, a sword and shield marriage which is one partner does the boring, more stable thing or work, and the other partner does the more likely to raise the entire status of the family work. I mean, I often use going a-viking as a way to do this, where the, the viking wife stays home and, and tends the farm, and then the husband goes, and goes raiding and does the, the risky thing.

[00:13:28] Or this could be, you know, a building an online career th- as a, as an influencer. This could be you know, a, a societal b- Engagement, this could be b- entrepreneurial-type work. Now, obviously Simone and I are pretty bad at, at sword and shield. We’re just like sword and sword. Yeah. Which creates challenges for us, right?

[00:13:48] Because it means we don’t have the fallback position that a lot of families have. However, if we ever fell into that position and we truly needed us, you know, you would take on the shield role. It’s very obvious within our relationship. And I was talking to a fan about this once and they, they seemed, like, embarrassed.

[00:14:04] They’re like, “Well, in our relationship, I, the woman, would be more likely to take on the, the sword position and my husband would be more likely to take on the shield position.” And this is where I’d be like, “No, that’s, like, totally okay.” It’s-

[00:14:17] Simone Collins: Oh, especially in our society where women have a leg up in job markets often or w- even in certain sectors of investing and everything.

[00:14:24] Like, it makes sense.

[00:14:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it often makes sense. In fact, that’s what Simone and I did historically is I sort of wore her face and did all the work. Mm-hmm. I’ve noticed this about a lot of female entrepreneurs it’s often their- Yeah,

[00:14:34] Simone Collins: well you present the asset that has the most, the greatest odds of success, but as a married couple you get to interchange what’s behind the mask.

[00:14:42] It’s amazing.

[00:14:43] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well th- this is also an interesting point here, which we’ll get to in regards to submission. Actually let’s get to the submission part and we can, we can talk about this. Submission means freely choosing to be the foundation that holds the family up, not inferiority, passivity or being a doormat.

[00:14:59] The Italian or Spanish word she uses literally means placed under. She redefines it as strong, elastic, patient role of supporting everyone else. It is a voluntary gift of self, not forced obedience. So again here the way that my wife and I relate to each other, I am the end voice in everything, right?

[00:15:23] Like, I- my decision is the final call at everything. So in that respect, she is submissive to me in the relationship, right? Mm-hmm. That said I would have two points here. One is while I would say usually or maybe almost always the man should have that role, I do not think always the man should have that role.

[00:15:49] I think that there are some relationships I have seen where it is obvious to both of them that the woman is smarter and has more emotional control. Now, the, [00:16:00] basically the person who is smarter and has more emotional control should always be the backdrop in terms of decision. And I’m sure

[00:16:05] Simone Collins: pretty much anyone listening to this podcast can think of a couple in which that’s what’s going on.

[00:16:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And that’s what’s, what’s going on. And, and you know what’s really funny about these couples as well? Most of the ones that I know, the woman actually still takes on a submissive role. Mm-hmm. She just has the last say in everything. Mm-hmm. So I’m gonna d- divide this into two things here.

[00:16:24] Who has the final call? And submission was in the relationship, right? Like, the, the submissive role was in the relationship. Here’s where I’m gonna say I actually do believe that women should always take on the submissive role in the relationship. And I will explain why, because it goes again, you know, a lot of the time I try to be very well, you know, not everyone is necessarily made that way, not everyone is blah, blah, blah.

[00:16:49] Even women who naturally, let’s say, are dominant women be that they prefer to be in a dominant position vis-a-vis their partner, or they are aroused by being in a dominant position vis-a-vis their partner. I think if they do that in the relationship itself, they will begin to respect the partner less over time.

[00:17:12] Mm-hmm. And eventually no longer be interested in the partner. I, I actually think Rick and Morty does a good job with this in the way it, it, it treats Jerry’s relationship with, with his wife. In the... You know, she sees him as, like, a sniveling worm aft- after a long period of time.

[00:17:28] Speaker 2: Here we have Gar and Zarbadar glooch. Or should I say, here we have the way Gar and Zarbadar perceive each other. That’s what makes us better than them. We can find solutions. We can adapt. We can communicate And most importantly, we can work together

[00:17:54] Malcolm Collins: And people can say, “Why, why don’t men do this with their women?

[00:17:58] Why do, if a woman is submissive to a man in a relationship for a long period of time why don’t they begin to see her as lesser?” And I think it’s just the way the social roles are structured and the way that we are socialized to see them. And, and somebody can be like, “Well, then create a new s- social whatever way of seeing, way of contextualizing.”

[00:18:19] And I’d respond like, “I mean, you can try, but, like, you didn’t grow up in it. It’s gonna be very, very difficult for you,” right? Like, it’s, it’s really putting a lot of risk on an experiment that doesn’t have any, Okay, so a- another note I’d be here is, is some people will be like, “Well, not all women like to be submissive.”

[00:18:42] And I will be honest here as like, just thinking through as somebody who slept around a ton, who’s dated a ton of people in my entire life, it... And I’m, I’m saying in my entire li- so, like, literally you know, 150 people in terms of, like, relationship experience, and then if you add you know, other people I’ve just met as friends, talked to, gotten to know deeply, you know, we’re probably talking about a pool of, like, 300 people I’ve gotten to know enough to know this.

[00:19:12] I’ve never met a single woman who didn’t, to some degree, like being in the submissive role. Have, have you, Simone? Like, I’m, I’m, I’m actually thinking here.

[00:19:26] Simone Collins: Yes but they’re non-binary so

[00:19:33] Yeah, yeah

[00:19:35] Malcolm Collins: Yeah

[00:19:36] Simone Collins: Just one person

[00:19:36] Malcolm Collins: So one person, right? So the, the, the point here being more broadly is it’s just like the people being like, “Well, not all women are like...” This is one thing where I’d be like almost all women are comfortable with a submissive role in a relationship. And again, why, but what does that mean?

[00:19:55] Submission to her likely within this, this Catholic framework, within the, [00:20:00] the, is likely significantly more, and we’ll get to this, it is more of a true form of submission, right? Like, at the end of the day, not just is the, her husband the backstop for all ideas, but she is submissive to him in all things.

[00:20:13] Hmm. In our relationship, and often in the culture of, ‘cause we’ve had episodes where we studied American relationships going back to America’s founding of different cultural groups submission, the, the role, the submissive role that women take looks very, very different and is much closer to the supporting position in a partnership.

[00:20:36] Which I think goes against what a lot of people would intuit. Well, and a lot of guys, right? Like, if you’re an American guy and you’re going out there and you’re looking for a girl of the, the American cultural set, that’s probably gonna be what she wants and expects, and I think that that’s totally fine.

[00:20:51] Like, those relationships like our relationship for example, works spectacularly well. But I never think about Simone submitting to me because she, without any sort of framing from me in that direction, is just always proactively working to help m- me, my, our family, and our goals, that it never feels like the word submission i- i- is really a good fit for what you’re doing there.

[00:21:24] Simone Collins: Do you- Well, I think what some other people who listen to the podcast had said is that, like, a, a, a genuinely dominant, in this context husband, yeah, but this person said husband too, would, would never, like, demand or ask for submission. Like, if anyone does that, they’re not dominant. It is just a natural order that folds out, you know, like a crystalline structure.

[00:21:47] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That- Just falling into place ... that’s actually a good, a p- a good point. Yeah. And as a husband, in terms of how you relate to this, it is above all else out of appreciation and gratitude for her dedicated and continuous work on behalf of the family that motivates my selfless devotion to her and our family’s goals.

[00:22:12] It, like, moves that forwards. She talks about this as a virtuous cycle, but for those who have not experienced it, it, it is genuinely a very natural and easy virtuous cycle to fall into. One person... And, and it’s also a truly evil thing to break this cycle, right? For me, for example, to begin exploiting her constant dedication to myself, to the family, to, you know,

[00:22:38] Simone Collins: But also for, and this actually I think happens a lot more Then that exploitation, or maybe that exploitation happens sometimes, it’s talked about a lot on social media, so s- you don’t need to worry about whistleblowers not being out there.

[00:22:50] But what happens often is one woman in a friend group will just get this in her head that she i- resents this, and then try to get all of her female friends to sort of become, like incept them with this idea as well. And it just starts to ruin the entire, like everyone’s, everyone’s relationships, unless someone else puts it to a stop.

[00:23:11] Because often, like women soft disagree to begin with, Yeah ... but don’t want to express it because they’re agreeable and they wanna be nice. And then in the end it just can make everyone resent their, their marriages and ruin their marriages, which is probably why one of the many reasons

[00:23:25] Malcolm Collins: why divorce is- Well, I, I actually think a good rule of thumb around this is- Yeah

[00:23:28] don’t be friends with people who don’t like their partners.

[00:23:31] Simone Collins: Yeah, who are in unhappy marriages. I, I- Gotta dump your friends ...

[00:23:34] Malcolm Collins: no, it’s just, it’s not a, it’s not a, there’s, there’s very little benefit to you that’s going to come from being friends with ... If, if somebody chose a partner and they don’t like the person they chose, that to me says an awful lot about the person who chose that partner and that particular mindset.

[00:23:51] I mean, maybe they’ve emotionally grown since then, maybe they psychologically grown since then and, Mm-hmm ... and they are incompatible now because they weren’t really thinking when they, [00:24:00] when they chose the individual and stuff like that. But at that point it’s then leave, right? Like the act of being in a negative relationship and then you know, incepting other people with that, which, which does happen.

[00:24:11] People who don’t like their partners are very confused by people who do like their partners. Mm-hmm. And they often believe, as we’ve seen with our relationship in terms of talking to reporters, in terms of talking with leftists, that the people who like their relationships are lying about it, or their

[00:24:29] Simone Collins: partner.

[00:24:29] Yeah, yeah. And, or that they’re delusional and they need to be, like they’re actually in horrible relationships and they just need to be told that, because as soon as they realize it then they’ll leave their terrible relationship and be like them.

[00:24:42] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and be like them. But yeah. No, I mean, I, I I, I think that that’s a, that’s a great point.

[00:24:47] And, and this woman does seem to be in a very genuinely good relationship from everything I can tell. She, next point she makes is women have a tendency to control everything. Submitting counters that tendency and frees the husband to lead and give himself. Mariano says women’s main marital defect is wanting to decide, organize, and improve everything, including the husband.

[00:25:06] When a husband steps back and trusts, the husband is more likely to abandon his own defect, selfishness or withdrawer, and becomes more present and sacrificial she talked about this early in her relationship. I, I w- if I was talking to a, you know, I grew up partially in Italy, so, like, that’s my best mirror of, like, Spanish culture is, is Italian culture.

[00:25:31] And the or, you know, I’ve, I’ve known a lot of Greek American families. The women in these families, I would give this advice to them. The women have a tendency to want to control everything and submitting can help you break out of that tendency. But I, I would say that this is not true for most women of American stock that I’ve met.

[00:25:51] They do not seem to have this tendency as, as described. Well, and

[00:25:53] Simone Collins: maybe though it’s even worse for your average, like, urban monoculture woman in the United States because rather than being like, “I’m going to mold him into the person I want him to be,” it’s, “I expect a man who’s perfect out of the box,” a, you know, nine out of 10, 10 out of 10.

[00:26:10] Which is, I don’t know. Yes. Yes. I don’t w- I would prefer a woman who’s like, “I’ll take a fixer-upper. I’m gonna, like, annoyingly try to control you,” over a woman who won’t even consider, you know, someone who’s imperfect.

[00:26:25] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I- Also,

[00:26:27] Simone Collins: I, I do soft disagree with her on the whole, like, don’t try to melt, mold a man, because we just did this episode on asking a- Do

[00:26:33] Malcolm Collins: try to mold a man.

[00:26:34] Yeah.

[00:26:34] Simone Collins: I, I- Yeah. Like, actually you should, and there’s just three types. There’s the s**t-testing type, which is bad. There’s the trying to turn a husband into something you want him to be, but he doesn’t want to be, that’s not in alignment with your values or his values, and that’s bad. But then there’s a third one, which is just helping him become the person he wants to be, and then you do ha- kinda have to be a, a hard-ass with him.

[00:26:54] You have to annoy him sometimes. Because look, a- any good coach of, say, an Olympic gymnast, that gymnast wants to win the Olympics.

[00:27:02] Malcolm Collins: No, no, I, I agree. Is that coach gonna push them- I mean, so Simone, when you’re thinking of, like, think of the women for, like, My Big Fat Greek Wedding or something like that.

[00:27:09] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:27:09] Malcolm Collins: Like, this would have been good advice for them.

[00:27:12] Simone Collins: Yes.

[00:27:12] Malcolm Collins: For, for, like, that s- but it’s not good advice, I think, for most of our followers or women like you. The, that you, most of these women are women with a level of emotional control and regulation that when they are nitpicking things the things that they are nitpicking are actually generally for the combined best interest of the family.

[00:27:37] Mm-hmm. And if the husband doesn’t want you nitpicking something, I mean, I think that’s on him to say, “This is not something that we’re going to talk about or you’re gonna criticize.”

[00:27:46] Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and there are also just some pretty real things ... and here’s why. Like, I think, Some, some conclusions people need to reach on their own, and if you try to, to push it on them, they will, you are just going to push them away from you.

[00:27:59] So you [00:28:00] also have to be aware of those third rail things.

[00:28:03] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. She argues that feminism fundamentally became subverted and went on the wrong path. And she argues that a true female freedom and happiness come from embracing feminine nature, welcome service and motherhood, rather than competing on male terms.

[00:28:17] I think everyone is, e- everyone has figured this out by now. Like- Yeah ... all the feminist women have figured this out by now, right?

[00:28:23] Simone Collins: Like- Dude, even men don’t wanna compete on male terms. If men could compete on female terms, they t- totally would.

[00:28:29] Malcolm Collins: Everyone, yeah, fe- w- when you... What? Yeah. Like, why, w- whoa. It’s crazy that any woman was psyops’d into believing that women wanted this.

[00:28:38] Yeah. And then they got it and they have been less happy, and I’m, I’m not talking here about my subjective... as feminism gained more power, women’s happiness went down, ob- objectively. The, the, it’s, the, there was a big study on this called the the Paradox of Feminism or something like this, and if you go from the 1970s women used to be happier than men on average.

[00:28:59] And just as, as women got more and more rights their happiness- Hmm ... went down and down and down and down. And male happiness ironically went up relative to women, and now women, men are significantly happier than women on average. And- Interesting ... like, it’s something, like, women wanted this, this form of, this sort of whatever they wanna call it, equality or whatever, in theory, but not in practicality.

[00:29:24] Simone Collins: Yeah. None, none of the drawbacks. It actually really sucks to be a dude, so.

[00:29:28] Malcolm Collins: The, yeah, women want equality in a relationship, but they also know they wanna be the submissive partner in a relationship. Like, it’s one of the things that’s like they, they want the idea of equality without actually thinking through the implementa- implications.

[00:29:45] Yeah,

[00:29:45] Simone Collins: because what it means to not be the submissive one, what it means to be the dominant one, is that all the responsibility falls with you in the end. And also, a lot of the work falls with you, and the, the scary work. So most people would avoid that. I think it was really personified well in, in what we experienced when we tried to give people promotions in Peru, and they were like, “No.

[00:30:08] No, I don’t want that. Don’t give me more responsibility, ‘cause then if something goes wrong, it’s gonna be my fault, and I’m gonna have more work, and I don’t want that. Don’t even, don’t even think about it. I don’t care about more money. You can just keep your money.”

[00:30:23] Malcolm Collins: Which happened with our real- Which, which happened, yeah

[00:30:26] we really struggled to promote people. And th- this is a, a different, well, it’s a different cultural framing to it, but I think it’s a correct cultural framing of what responsibility means. Like, what it means-

[00:30:34] Simone Collins: It’s based, yeah. Because I, yeah, I think in the United States, people to a certain extent are gaslit about the, the glamour of dominance.

[00:30:45] They’re led to believe that it is, you know, just all fantastic and perfect, when actually it means you have a ton of responsibilities, the buck stops with you, and y- all of your decisions are going to be capable of causing a lot more damage and pain and blowback. When, when you are at the bottom you, you have kind of have a lot more freedom and a lot less stress.

[00:31:09] The one situation where you don’t wanna be, and I think this is maybe what people index on really heavily in the United States, is that it really sucks if you are under someone else and they are not a very good manager or, like, dominant person. That’s the big problem.

[00:31:28] Malcolm Collins: Yes. Well, and I think that this, this is, this is why it’s useful for men.

[00:31:33] When, when a male tries to take on the role of the truly equal partner, to an extent I think women at, I would say the average woman and even the vast majority of women, find that disgusting to an extent. Mm-hmm. It, it, it’s almost as if they are belittling themselves by being with a partner who is their equal in, in

[00:31:58] Simone Collins: the way that they communicate.

[00:31:59] Well, and to a certain extent they’re gonna accuse [00:32:00] you still of all of the bad man things that women confuse men, or a- accuse men of. For example, you’re putting off, off, offloading a huge amount of mental load to me, ‘cause now I have to decide where we’re gonna eat dinner. I have to decide all these things.

[00:32:15] And that is-

[00:32:16] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, didn’t they make some, some big new thing about, what, what was the new stellar, like- Mental

[00:32:20] Simone Collins: load. That’s what I just said ...

[00:32:21] Malcolm Collins: mental load, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That men are giving me mental load.

[00:32:24] Simone Collins: Yeah. That- That I have to think to remind him to do a thing, that I have to ask, that I have to carry the emotional burden of this thing.

[00:32:34] And I, yeah, I think- Contrast that with the, the, this old lost social graces of men opening doors for women and men ordering for women at restaurants. Like, the, the whole idea is that they are trying to do a, a, perform courtesy for a, a female partner or friend or family member by taking the burden of opening a door or of speaking with a waiter away from a woman so that she could relax and just chill.

[00:33:05] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of manners were about that, right? Yeah. Like, taking the load off of a w- a woman specifically so that she could further dedicate herself to her role. Mm. But I, I, I think that this is the thing that was forgotten is, is, is women try to keep all of that stuff, right, all the, all the benefits, and then push back on...

[00:33:25] But let- let’s keep going here to, to more pieces of advice in the book. Right. By the way, this book feels very tame to you, right? Like, generically good advice that most sane people who’d been married would agree with. Mm-hmm. And yet they are completely apoplectic about it. Ripping it apart, saying, “This isn’t what the Bible supports,” saying, you know, like, like a bishop was saying that.

[00:33:45] Like, this is not a Christian value set. Like, this is-

[00:33:47] Simone Collins: Really?

[00:33:48] Malcolm Collins: Oh ... antithetical to what the, the Vatican teaches.

[00:33:51] Simone Collins: Yeah, like- What do his Christian values say?

[00:33:53] Malcolm Collins: Now I know, right? But what’s fun is that this is being published by the archdiocese, and the archbishop has been very supportive of it, so. Oh.

[00:34:00] Simone Collins: Okay.

[00:34:01] Malcolm Collins: Oh. There’s a faction of the church that’s based and likes this. And obviously, the, the core buyers of this are Catholic wives. The practical path to a happy marriage, if she, she breaks it down dive into marriage rather than waiting for the perfect moment or perfect partner which I, I think is very good advice.

[00:34:17] Simone Collins: Super important message, especially for Catholics who end up marrying a lot later and appear to be, through their actions, just more choosy, despite being in communities that should be pretty good for matchmaking.

[00:34:26] Malcolm Collins: I did not feel, for people who think that our relationship is particularly good, if you go back to my early relationship with Simone, I did not feel she was the perfect partner.

[00:34:33] Simone Collins: Yeah, and he was actually kind of explicit about that. He was really not sure if this marriage was gonna work out. I was gonna be his first wife.

[00:34:39] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I thou- I thought she was the good enough partner with you know, the, the core things recommending her, that she was hardworking, she worked to improve herself, and she was and, like, adored me, like, thought very highly of me, and that was what I wanted to see, right?

[00:34:54] You know. And I think that now you’re the perfect partner. I think most people that know our relationship now are like, “Oh, well, Malcolm, you don’t understand. I’m not just gonna find a Simone out there,” right? And the Simone I found was, progressive environmentalist hipster who worked, managed the company’s Facebook account, right?

[00:35:15] Like-

[00:35:16] Simone Collins: Malcolm, I did more than that.

[00:35:18] Malcolm Collins: You did more than that over time. That’s basically what you did at the beginning. I’m just pointing out, and, and she wasn’t particularly good-looking compared to what she looks like today. Don’t know why. Don’t, I don’t know how she got more attractive as she got older.

[00:35:31] It, it’s mostly confidence, I think, and not, and not knowing how to style yourself. Oh my God. But no, it’s important to note this because people- Yes ... will be like, “Well, I model, I model off of Malcolm and Simone, so I look for somebody who’s as good as Simone.” Yeah, you

[00:35:43] Simone Collins: don’t wanna look at- And I’m like, “Simone wasn’t-”

[00:35:44] the after picture only and then just assume that you get that without putting in the work. Yeah. Yeah, Simone wasn’t as good as Simone. You marry a before. Yeah.

[00:35:52] Malcolm Collins: But I-

[00:35:52] Simone Collins: But also, Malcolm, you, I, you say, “I got more attractive.” You got more attractive than I got more attractive.

[00:35:59] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, that’s [00:36:00] normal in a relationship, but yeah, I definitely got more attractive as I got older.

[00:36:02] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:03] Malcolm Collins: Prioritize the husband and the marital bond even amid children and work. Do I agree with this one? I, I regret

[00:36:09] Simone Collins: that she has to say that.

[00:36:11] Malcolm Collins: I mean, I g- yes, do continue to prioritize the husband, but I think the family unit with the children as the most important part of a family unit come above the husband or wife.

[00:36:22] Simone Collins: Oh.

[00:36:23] Malcolm Collins: I, I, I will say that it’s possible to over-prioritize children to the extent that you forget about your partner- Hmm ... and your partner stops being as important to you. And I think that that’s, obviously I’ve seen that, that can do a lot of damage in a relationship. But I think I, I, I sort of put them as co-equals.

[00:36:41] Spouse and all of the kids i- as, as the other part of the co-equal. Now over or relative to jobs, yeah, yeah, I mean, income’s important, but yeah. I, I, the, the, your family is, it can depend. I think your family’s mission is the most important thing, and because we completely combine family and job, it’s harder for us to, you know, make this distinction here.

[00:37:05] Be open to life. Children are a gift, not an obstacle. Good piece of advice. Practice humility, humor, prayer, and daily small acts of service. The wife’s submission helps create the conditions of the husband to, quote-unquote, “die for her,” the, which the companion book talks about. Which again is asking a lot from the hu- like, this is not a, oh, women crawl on the knees for your husband type book, right?

[00:37:30] Like, I, I think that this is a very, it’s about both people dedicating themselves to their partners to an extent that is deeply offensive within modern culture, within the urban monoculture.

[00:37:44] And the, the i- i- and also note here that she’s very explicit about returning to like, a Christian anthropology of, of what a wife should be instead of our vision of the 1950s wife. You know, like, y- staying home a- against their will or whatever. Like, the stay-at-home vision of a wife in the 1950s, and I think she’s good to do this, is i- i- like, was never a real thing, as we’ve pointed out.

[00:38:12] It is not a vision that should be chased. Whereas I think the vision that she presents of female mortification, as she would put it, is, is something that can be chased. So, I’ll go into now what she says in the male book. She says, “True masculinity means being willing to die for your wife and your family.”

[00:38:30] The claim is taken straight from St- Saint Paul. “Virility is not dominance, success, or emotional toughness for its own sake. It is the readiness to take blows, to protect, provide, “And spends oneself for the good of the wife and children. Most of the time is, quote-unquote, ‘dying,’ and it happens in small, unglamorous ways rather than dramatic acts of heroism.”

[00:38:52] Which is, I think, a great way to frame being a husband for men. When we think about what it means to live, you know, chivalrous, vulturous lives, a lot of people want to be the knight or the warrior, you know, going out dying trying to stop the terrorist or whatever in some big glamorous cycle.

[00:39:09] But I, I think that the individual momentary sacrifices as, as, as we put it, like, you should live your life in a state of perpetual martyrdom. Every moment and every day you are a, a fleeting thing, right? Like, the me tomorrow isn’t the me today. It’s, it’s a, it’s a different entity. That the me today has a duty to martyr himself for not just my family and for civilization, for my children, but for me in the future.

[00:39:39] And to frame life that way I think is something that psychologically is sort of deeply understandable for men.

[00:39:45] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:39:47] Malcolm Collins: “There is a modern crisis of male identity. Many males today are disoriented, passive, withdrawn, or stuck in a prolonged adolescence. They avoid responsibility, decision-making, and self-giving.

[00:39:58] They retreat into [00:40:00] work, screens, hobbies, or silence. This is a vacuum that harms the whole family.” I think this is a, a deeply correct attack on modern men. And I actually think here when she talks about, like, what does it mean for a wife to be submissive, and I think that this is a good understanding of a wife being submissive, is it’s to be with somebody who is not disoriented, passive, or withdrawn, right?

[00:40:24] It’s to be with somebody who is active.

[00:40:33] Simone Collins: I’m so sorry. Can you hear me okay?

[00:40:35] Malcolm Collins: Yes. And then she goes further to argue that the woman’s attitude strongly influences whether or not the man steps up. And a note to the previous attack right there, where people can be like, “Hey, men are only acting like this because of women not taking on the traditionally woman role in society.”

[00:40:52] And that, that is true, right? Like, and it is, it is also true within a marriage. For the, for the male to not be passive or withdrawn and to make decisions with authority, and to not withdraw into adolescence or hobbies or whatever d- as, as major points of their lives the woman is a partner in that.

[00:41:14] But what I’d say to men who are all like, “Well then how do I do it? How do I make a woman...” Women secretly want this, okay? That they, they secretly want a guy who is on some big impressive journey that they can go on together, right? Like, that is what women want. And if, even if they’ve been brainwashed by the urban monoculture it is difficult to break them out of it.

[00:41:39] It takes time to break them out of it. But the... I- I’d say, like, broadly among the wider, like, right these days, es- especially the new right, a lot of the most virulent good warriors are women who had a man break them out of this cycle, and just then go full-on, like, a, a culture war, basically.

[00:42:05] Mm-hmm. And I think one of the things that causes women to do this is when other women to keep trying to tell them, “Your husband is, doesn’t care about you, is bad, is abusing you. You need to leave. You shouldn’t be happy with this. You shouldn’t be happy with your kids. This is all some weird fetish thing.”

[00:42:22] And, and, and I think that that radicalizes women further- Mm-hmm ... because they see how manipulative the world is being in a way that would be harmful to them if they followed it.

[00:42:32] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And in a way that just jarringly makes them more confident in their position that they hold.

[00:42:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. In terms of the, like, life plan for a marriage, it’s lead the family instead of abdicating authority or treating the household as a pure democracy.

[00:42:50] We advocate for this. We’ve done this since our very first book, The Pragmatist’s Guide to Relationships. The buck always needs to stop with somebody, right? Mm. Going for compromise causes both parties to drift apart in terms of their opinions, because each party is psychologically subtly rewarded for exaggerating their preferences.

[00:43:09] If this isn’t clear to you, I’ll use the example here. If one side secretly wants two and the other side secretly wants four, the side that secretly wants four is psychologically rewarded for pretending they secretly want eight, and the side that wants two is psychologically rewarded for pretending they want one.

[00:43:26] And if you know anything about how the human brain works, if you pretend to hold a position, you begin to hold a position more in that direction. So compromise actually moves you further. You need to just trust your partner enough to be like, “Okay, at the end of the day, on these really important things, I’m gonna trust your judgment on X because you have shown that y- if you treat your life as a form of martyrdom for the future,” right?

[00:43:47] “Y- you’re not gonna act on your personal hedonistic preferences. You’re going to act on, with the information that you have access to, what is best for all of us.”

[00:43:58] Simone Collins: Hmm. [00:44:00]

[00:44:00] Malcolm Collins: Be present, decisive, and protective. Make the marriage a priority, not just children or work. Perform the daily, quote-unquote, “little deaths,” the chores he dislikes, listening even when tired, giving the benefit of the doubt, putting the wife’s good ahead of his comfort.

[00:44:16] Be a father who sets limits, educates, and provides stability, and cultivate a spiritual life, prayer, and the sacraments so the sacrifice is sustained by grace rather than pure willpower. Um I mean, yeah. I would agree with that. I think that for a woman especially, like the, the pure willpower form of hard work rather than the form of hard work that comes with as, as, as somebody who has lived both the more religious lifestyle where you live now versus a form of hard work that was just like grinding through because we had to grind through does feel significantly different.

[00:44:59] Mostly because, I mean, I... The- for me the biggest difference is I know that everything is going to eventually work out for the better. And I know that civilization, not just at the level of my family but at the level of civilization and that makes the hard work feel less panicked, I, I would say and, and slightly more rewarding.

[00:45:17] But that, that’s a big change that’s, that’s happened right there. And then the next one is, and, and this is one that we didn’t really realize until we were on the podcast. You can see the episode where we argue that love doesn’t really exist as the way society talks about it. She says love is not primarily a feeling.

[00:45:33] She argues romantic intensity fades. Real marital love is a decision to keep going after illusions die, after fatigue and disappointment set in. Well I haven’t, I never felt the fatigue and disappointment but I will say I’ve never felt some separate emotion that I could call love. It requires both spouses to die a little every day, their a- ego expectations and preferred image of each other.

[00:45:55] I don’t know. For me, whatever emotion of affection I have towards you, the the primary emotion I have is admiration. And that has not gone down over time, but I guess I, I do like the framing for people focusing on the romantic emotional subset as like the purpose of your marriage or the goal of your marriage or the barometer of your marriage’s health is really, really toxic even though it’s normalized.

[00:46:20] Simone Collins: Well I, I don’t think it’s terribly sustainable e- especially if we’re going for like limerence. That, that just can’t, it cannot last. But yeah.

[00:46:35] Malcolm Collins: I don’t- Yeah ...

[00:46:36] Simone Collins: the, the disappointment or frustration, I think what she might be missing is she’s still, and maybe this is just to make it broadly appeal to people, that when you marry and have kids you are I mean, she talks about little deaths.

[00:46:55] Like, what you are dies. You, your identity, it, it doesn’t matter anymore. You now exist within the context of your family, and you collectively as an entity are working towards something. So this idea that you would be frustrated with your partner, you’d be no more frustrated with your partner than you might be frustrated with, like, a sprained ankle that makes it hard to run your marathon, which is painful and, and, and frustrating, but i- in a very different context, right?

[00:47:25] You’re like, you’re not mad at your sprained ankle. You’re like, “Okay, how are we gonna make this work? Like, can I splint it? Can I walk in a different way? You know, how can we... Like, can I ride a bike?” Yeah. So you just have to figure that out. A- and it’s, it’s not like You are part of the same body. It’s j- I, I, I don’t know how to articulate it

[00:47:45] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that’s the other thing that feels...

[00:47:46] In, in our marriage, the word submission feels very weird to me because it would be like saying my, my arm is submissive to my brain. It’s like n- no, my arm isn’t submissive to my brain. My brain [00:48:00] naturally guides and commands my arm because we- Yeah,

[00:48:02] Simone Collins: these things all fit

[00:48:03] Malcolm Collins: together. Yeah. We’re, we’re one single entity.

[00:48:06] I, I think making the man the brain within the family is a natural way to sort things and the way that most women prefer to live their lives, even if their preferred self-image of themselves isn’t that. Hmm ... and I think most women who are in touch with themselves are aware of this. It, it, it, it works j- just works really well.

[00:48:28] Now, this I, I mentioned, you know, what, what some Bishop Mario Iceta of Bilbao said the title, quote, “Does not reflect what the church thinks,” end quote, about marriage and called it provocative and unfortunate.

[00:48:43] Simone Collins: Unfortunate ...

[00:48:44] Malcolm Collins: the the spokesperson of the Spanish Episcopal Conference, so this is keep in mind, not C- oh oh, yeah, no, it is Catholic, it’s, it’s Catholic Episcopals.

[00:48:51] Mm-hmm. I think of Episcopal in the United States context. Yeah But José María Gil Tamayo stated, quote, “Submission does not correspond to the doctrine of the

[00:49:00] church or the gospel,” end quote, and that Christian obedi- obedience is, not, quote, barrack style. And I love that that’s not what’s being put here.

[00:49:08] They’re, they’re just literally saying you should not be obedient as a Christian, right? Like, that’s a mainstream mindset that’s becoming popular in these communities. And this is where I think, and within the nerd right online, a lot of people wonder why it can function with so many different religious groups atheists and secular thinkers all, all working together.

[00:49:31] And it’s because we broadly recognize that the way that we see the structuring of a family is going to be fairly similar to the way a you know, a faithful Orthodox Jew sees the structuring of a family, or a secular person who is sane and has put some thought into the way that they’re structuring their family, right?

[00:49:52] When contrasted with the, quote, unquote, “religious authority,” i- in, in, in, in, in Wokistan, right? Like, that, that’s clearly not whatever we’re about, right? Like, I would have the, the perspective that whether I am talking about, you know, Christian like leaflet or Jew or it’s actually Jew like Nux or you know, atheists like Sargon of Akkad.

[00:50:15] All of us are gonna have fairly similar and in alignment with this book, which, you know, feels culturally related views on the way you should structure your marriage. Which I think is why it’s so easy to, to have this sort of wide cultural net in that it’s not actually that wide. It’s just a cultural net that’s focused on let’s try to find what actually works.

[00:50:37] Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s just shocking to me that this wasn’t pigeonholed. I feel like if this book came out in the US, women would just be like, “Oh, that’s just some Catholic book that Catholic wives read.”

[00:50:49] Malcolm Collins: Well, so-

[00:50:49] Simone Collins: I mean, there are books that are associated with fundamentalist groups that sometimes, you know, content creators like Fundie Fridays, they’ll refer to them.

[00:50:58] But they’re not... You know, people aren’t like ripping them apart in the streets like you. What

[00:51:02] Malcolm Collins: I find so fascinating is, is how mild the message of the book is in my perspective, and common sense. Mm-hmm. And you’ll get people like Ana Mato, Minister of Health Services and Equity of Partido Po- Popular, say, “I do not share the title or the content at all, and I would like and have requested that this book be withdrawn.

[00:51:22] I believe it is not appropriate and that this lack of respect towards women,” she, she said, “Neither any woman nor the majority of society approve of this book.” A- and then she asked the archbishop to quote-unquote “rectify” the book. Oh, this is the Partido de Popular, and said that it was a genuine absurdity.

[00:51:40] And then a... Oh, th- th- this, this was the PP, the, that party. Then the P- O- S- O- A, the An- Andalusian Socialists demanded an immediate withdrawal of the book because they considered it quote-unquote “discriminatory and sexist.” And then the IU or the, this another political party, called the prosecutor’s office to investigate whether the book [00:52:00] constituted, quote, “an apology for violence against women,” end quote.

[00:52:03] Simone Collins: What, what’s going on? Spain, are you okay?

[00:52:07] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and then, and then Carmen Palazzo, the director of the Women’s Institute, sent an official letter to the archdiocese asking it to reconsider publication, stating that the book did not fit, quote, “The values of equality that public institutions must defend,” end quote, and describing the publication as anachronistic, I guess arguing that w- that women were never like this.

[00:52:28] And I really tried to understand, like, why do they keep saying that it was about violence, right? Like, when it’s clearly the book never talks about violence. And I read-

[00:52:35] Simone Collins: Wait. Okay. Maybe these groups are running out of funds. There’s nothing really for them to talk about or, or freak out over, and so this is kind of it.

[00:52:47] This is, you know, this is another version of the Southern Poverty Law Center funding racism i- in whatever way they can because they need to have a big bad in order to raise money. So it could be happening, and this could totally make sense given Spain’s current economic climate and the shifting philanthropic climate as well, that these organizations that are freaking out and trying to raise awareness about this alarming book literally don’t have anything to work with, and they’re just-

[00:53:16] Malcolm Collins: I’m that could be it.

[00:53:17] I, I

[00:53:18] Simone Collins: think- It, it, look, you can’t mis- misinterpret a word like mortificacion that poorly if you aren’t acting in bad faith, and I think one of the top things that can get people to act in bad faith is a motivation toward profit. So.

[00:53:33] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So the president for the Federation of Associated and Se- Separated and Divorced Women in, in Spain has called the book a very clear manual for violence.

[00:53:43] And I was very confused. You know, I, I, I think the term mortificacion in, in this context, like expecting your s- to make sacrifices on behalf of your partner in a daily manner might be the, the core thing, like the, the book’s title, Sub- Marry and Submit. Like, the idea of submission at all is sort of one of their core sins, right?

[00:54:05] The idea that you would submit to anything other than your own whims is, within the urban monoculture, w- I, I think the cardinal sin.

[00:54:16] Simone Collins: I just realized something about the way you mispronounce some words ‘cause you said it like morta focaccia, like it’s a focaccia, like food. And then I was like, wait, again.

[00:54:27] You, you had the, the anfrotada or something. It sounded like frittata.

[00:54:32] Malcolm Collins: Ca- yeah, the anfrotada. The an- the antifada. You gotta kinda call it with it. Yeah, the- And then you had the Strait of- Globalize the anti-

[00:54:38] anfrotada

[00:54:38] Simone Collins: You made it sound like the Strait of Vermouth. I feel like I figured out one of your pronunciation problems is you just, your mind goes to ingredients and foods.

[00:54:48] Malcolm Collins: When I’m talking foreign words, I think that’s the one place where you as an American can talk foreign, all right? It’s

[00:54:55] Simone Collins: when it’s food.

[00:54:57] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like when I say a disgusting Spanish word like taco, like I think that’s okay because- It’s taco, yes. That’s, it’s- It’s taco, right? Or an empanada or nacho or- Oh

[00:55:07] Simone Collins: yeah. Yes, yes. Yes. And

[00:55:09] Malcolm Collins: by the way, I, I, I’m, I’m joking here. For people who do not know, tacos are an American invention. They are not- Yes

[00:55:13] a Spanish invention. Yes. Burritos ... which is very fu- There’s so many dishes that people are like, “How dare you steal my culture?” And I’m like actually, we invented that.” The, the, the other one that I l- that’s one of my favorites, it’s ramen. Made by American companies and popularized in Japan because we gave it to them in food rations after World War II.

[00:55:30] Simone Collins: Fortune cookies, made in Oakland.

[00:55:32] Malcolm Collins: W- what cookies?

[00:55:33] Simone Collins: Fortune cookies.

[00:55:34] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, fortune cookies is another one. But that didn’t become popular in the other country.

[00:55:39] Simone Collins: Yeah, fair enough.

[00:55:39] Malcolm Collins: Like for, but most Chinese people in China don’t believe that fortune cookies are actually a Chinese thing. They, they immediately recognize them as an American thing.

[00:55:47] But yeah. What are your thoughts on the idea of submission, women’s roles in a marriage, and advice you would give to, to both men and women on this front?

[00:55:58] Simone Collins: That you’re both submiss- submitting [00:56:00] to shared values. And, and what you are doing is becoming a member of an organization that puts the organization first, and the organization’s bottom line is your values.

[00:56:11] So it’s not maximizing shareholder value, it is maximizing your collective agreed-upon shared values. And you ... I think people can understand this pretty easily because it’s seen, though demonized, in mainstream media. People regularly refer to the way that the British royal family internally refers to themselves as The Firm.

[00:56:32] Mm-hmm. And the many instances framed as tragic and horrible, I don’t know. I, I, I think it is kind of tragic and horrible because of really stupid reasons why they did various things that, that involved sublimating the interests and desires of members of the family in favor of the interest of The Firm, and people being explicitly told, “You need to do this for The Firm.”

[00:56:53] You know, including-

[00:56:54] Malcolm Collins: Which I actually

[00:56:55] Simone Collins: think of- ... abdication, not getting married to the person you really loved, right? And, like, a lot of these rules were kind of stupid. In the end, they maybe didn’t need to matter that much. But, like, that ... Th- there is this very clear example. People do understand. There are families that put the family first.

[00:57:09] There are families that, ... This also I think really you could see happening with the Kennedys, though in a s- a slightly different way, where it’s like, “No, you put this family’s collective goals over your own.” And people did that. I ... They, they were a little bit lopsided in that commitment. There was a lot more commitment to hedonism among the Kennedy men.

[00:57:28] But, like, still. Mm. You ... People can see this. This is not foreign. You just need to do it yourself. Your family deserves that. And you can do it. Well, I

[00:57:36] Malcolm Collins: really like this framing that you’re taking right here, and I want to build on it. And I’ve mentioned this before, but I, I, I actually think this is the core.

[00:57:43] I love reading romance books that are clearly written for women.

[00:57:47] Simone Collins: I love you so much, Malcolm.

[00:57:49] Malcolm Collins: About marrying the duke in whatever magical world.

[00:57:55] But yeah, in, in, in my stories, you know, it’s always, oh, you go out and you marry the, the duke and then you join his household, and they often think of their own family as like a household with a collective mission and reputation and goals.

[00:58:12] And those goals, it’s, it’s n- natural. It’s the most obvious thing in the world that they supersede the goals of the individual, right? Like, you don’t begin to think about your own goals until you’ve served your role as the duke’s daughter or whatever, right? You know? Yeah. S- Simone knows these stories.

[00:58:30] They’re great stories. You’ll, y- more people, more people get into them ‘cause they’re, they’re very good at fr- framing for your family. That is what family should be. That is what we should go back to family being, and I think that that’s the healthiest way to frame family, is it is the institution of the family, the Collinses, the clan that is the most important thing in terms of advancing interests, but not just the most important thing, but my core unit of identity.

[00:58:57] I am a limb of the entity which is the Collins clan.

[00:59:03] Simone Collins: Oh, this shows up in Dune too. People are very committed to House Atreides, House Harkonnen. Like, that, that- Yes. Yeah. No, this is not hard for people to understand. Just grow a pair and do it, okay? And we don’t need to go any further than that. All right, love you.

[00:59:17] I love you. I’m gonna make you fried rice for dinner. Again. I’m look-

[00:59:19] Malcolm Collins: I’m looking forward to it.

[00:59:23] Ugh.

[00:59:24] Simone Collins: I still haven’t figured out what flavor is missing.

[00:59:27] Malcolm Collins: I don’t know. Ask an AI. But w- you ... It, it just tastes slightly flavorless, and I don’t know ... There is some fla- It has

[00:59:35] Simone Collins: soy sauce, hoisin sauce, brown sugar, MSG- There is

[00:59:39] Malcolm Collins: some flavor you used in the past- ... chili peppers- ... that you’re not

[00:59:39] Simone Collins: using right now

[00:59:40] garlic, ginger- Are you remembering to

[00:59:40] Malcolm Collins: use- ... oyster sauce ... black soy sauce and not white? Dark soy sauce?

[00:59:47] Simone Collins: You want me to use dark ... There is not white soy sauce. In fried r-

[00:59:50] Malcolm Collins: in fried rice, you generally use dark soy sauce.

[00:59:53] Simone Collins: That would add a lot of extra s- sure. I, I, I will try that, and I will also ask AI as you’ve requested, and we’ll figure it out.

[00:59:59] Malcolm Collins: I [01:00:00] love you.

[01:00:02] Simone Collins: You drive me so cucking nuts. I love you too. This

[01:00:04] Malcolm Collins: is

[01:00:05] Simone Collins: really hard.

[01:00:05] I sublimate myself to you. I will mortify myself. Ring ring ring ring ring. Mortify me. Well,

[01:00:10] Malcolm Collins: you definitely, you definitely mortify yourself for me. I’m, I’m mortified just seeing it.

[01:00:17] Simone Collins: Oh, no. Oh, God.

[01:00:22] Malcolm Collins: I’m super excited.

[01:00:24] Simone Collins: Octavian got a really good grip on why communism sucks today, like, w- in a two-minute conversation- Oh ... and I was really impressed.

[01:00:33] Malcolm Collins: Wait,

[01:00:34] Simone Collins: really? He was like, “Why can’t I have everything for free?” And I’m like, At first, I’m like look, just systems break when everything’s free.” And then I’m like, “Okay, fine.

[01:00:43] Let’s, let’s talk about this, Octavian. Let’s imagine that we got two helicopter toys, but there are five kids. W- well, we could make the helicopters have a price, or we could make them free. And if they’re free, basically whichever kid gets to them first gets to play with the helicopter toy. That’s their helicopter toy.

[01:01:02] You value helicopters more than any other kid in this family, so if I added a price to it, like you have to clean up this thing, or you have to eat all your dinner, or what, you have to do this many lessons, like, then you w- ... basically, Titan doesn’t care about helicopters. She won’t do the work. Torsten doesn’t care helicop- about helicopters.

[01:01:21] He won’t do the work. So you will do the work, which is totally worth it for you, and you’ll get the helicopter. And that’s why it is important to put a price to things- ... because if you don’t, then things will end up going to people who don’t even want them, and those who actually want them- You are an excellent mother

[01:01:35] won’t be able to access a, a scarce resource.” And he, like, totally got it, and he’s like, “Oh, I’m glad things aren’t free.” And it made me very happy that our son is not going to be a Marxist socialist. Very

[01:01:44] Malcolm Collins: happy that you’re not raising a communist?

[01:01:46] Simone Collins: Look, I was... He kept saying it. Were you,

[01:01:48] Malcolm Collins: like, rapidly anti-communism when you were in college, too?

[01:01:52] Or did that- I think so ... like, come as you became more conservative?

[01:01:55] Simone Collins: No, I, I think I was, I think I was very against it in in high school, too. I think- ‘Cause remember, I wanted to go into environmental business, right? Oh. I wanted a business degree. I was like, the only way to actually make change in this world is through capitalism.

[01:02:10] So that’s how much of a believer in it I was. Like, I was this, like, “I must save the planet” hippie, but like-

[01:02:16] Malcolm Collins: With money and capitalism, of course ...

[01:02:18] Simone Collins: I understood that, like, the government was gonna g- d- like, actually be effective or anything like that. That would be, that would be delusional, Malcolm.

[01:02:26] Malcolm Collins: I love that you have a talk with him about communism.

[01:02:29] That’s crazy talk to me. I, I didn’t go get him, ‘cause if he’s with Ali already, then he’s not gonna be doing any more lessons.

[01:02:33] Simone Collins: I don’t- No, I, I don’t think he is. Well, and I asked I’m, I’m... I asked him to have Awia help him, ‘cause maybe, you know, having a friend over to help you with your math questions.

[01:02:42] She’s like a cool girl that you think you want to impress, you know? Maybe she’ll help him out. I don’t know.

[01:02:48] Speaker 3: Okay, what are you gonna name your caterpillar? I’m gonna name-

[01:02:53] Spiky Spiky? Yeah. Well, be gentle with him. Okay? Because- All right, show me what you got, buddy ... because sea snakes- I actually have two spiders I love his leg

[01:03:06] sea snakes, they are like spikes. Hello, Mr. Spiky. I want him that one. Oh, thank you. Spiky the caterpillar. My fourth grade. All right, show us. Show us what Alia sh- taught you

[01:03:20] Wow. Right? You’re making... Wow, Octavian. Wow.

Malcolm and Simone examine two recent cases in which white women received jail time for publicly confronting Black immigrants involved in child sexual assaults, while the perpetrators themselves faced little to no prison time.

They detail the “pig” texting case linked to a migrant gang rape of a 14-year-old girl and the widely discussed “N-word” park confrontation involving a Somali man with his own prior child-rape history. From there the conversation expands to patterns of differential justice across the West, the failure of multiculturalism experiments, and why ethnic collectivism is a strategic dead end.

The bulk of the episode is devoted to pragmatic long-term responses: narrowing the definition of the “out-group” to actual cultural non-assimilators rather than entire ethnic categories, country-of-origin immigration quotas based on crime and welfare data, family-level deportation for serious offenses, removal of individuals who openly advocate the eradication of other groups, reopening of asylums, and the logistical and political realities of enforcing such policies at scale.

The discussion closes with reflections on political will, the difference between vigilantism and terrorism, and why a maximally inclusive cultural standard paired with maximally aggressive enforcement against clear bad actors is the only path that remains electorally viable and morally coherent.[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be talking about the insane phenomenon of white women going to jail for scolding Black child grapists.

[00:00:17] Simone Collins: Wait.

[00:00:17] Malcolm Collins: And-

[00:00:17] Simone Collins: So it’s, it’s finally the backlash against Karens is emerging, and yet it’s, This has,

[00:00:22] Malcolm Collins: this has literally happened two times where there was a Black immigrant who graped a child, and then a white woman was sent to prison after scolding them, and in neither case did the Black immigrant face any prison time.

[00:00:39] Simone Collins: Did they scold them in person? Wha- was it violent scolding? Did they spank them?

[00:00:44] Malcolm Collins: No, not really. So we’ll go over each case. One case was, a lot of people are familiar with the surface level of this case.

[00:00:52] Simone Collins: Okay.

[00:00:52] Malcolm Collins: The, the N-word case. And when I first heard about this case, I was like, yeah, you shouldn’t, like, just go around yelling the N-word at people in, like, a, a park or something like that.

[00:01:00] Even, even in- Was

[00:01:01] Simone Collins: this the one who, the woman who did this in a parking lot or something, and then vehemently defended it online, that woman?

[00:01:07] Malcolm Collins: The trial just ended with, with her going to jail and-

[00:01:11] Simone Collins: Trial? Trial?

[00:01:12] Trial for using a word?

[00:01:13] Malcolm Collins: Yes. I, I just told you. In a- I just... Sorry. We just went over two women went to jail. Yeah, but- how do you think this works?

[00:01:22] Simone Collins: I don’t know, man, these days. I just, I, I, I don’t know. I this, this is too, this is too weird. This is very weird.

[00:01:28] Malcolm Collins: Okay. But it gets weirder because I heard the, the, the gist of this case.

[00:01:33] Okay. And I didn’t really think anything of it. I was like, I bet our side is blowing this out of proportion. It can’t really be that bad. I’m sure, you know, both sides, whatever on this stuff. Mm-hmm. These things are not a both sides issue. Hmm. In... I’ll, I’ll briefly describe the two cases. One is, remember when we looked at that gang grape of a child, a a young girl who was, I think 14 at the time,

[00:02:01] Simone Collins: The one who was lured out to the woods by her so-called boyfriend at the time, and then- And-

[00:02:06] attacked by his- And then gang

[00:02:06] Malcolm Collins: graped by a group of migrants. Yeah. While

[00:02:09] Simone Collins: they took videos on Snapchat.

[00:02:10] Malcolm Collins: While they took videos, and then posted the videos to Snapchat, and almost none of them spent any time in jail. They got community service. Do you know who did spend time in jail after that?

[00:02:18] Simone Collins: Who?

[00:02:19] Malcolm Collins: A woman who texted one of them to say that he acted like a pig.

[00:02:24] Simone Collins: A pig?

[00:02:25] Malcolm Collins: Yes, and that she hopes he was disgusted with himself every time he looked at himself in the mirror.

[00:02:31] Simone Collins: Like every day for most people online, like I’m not even like, this isn’t even a partisan thing. Like if you’re on the internet and you’re like, “I loved this movie,” someone’s gonna say that to you.

[00:02:40] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, imagine if we could arrest people for saying that stuff about us online. Oh my gosh. Why don’t, why aren’t we immigrants, right? Like, let’s move to Germany or something, and then when people attack us, we just have them sent to jail. That’s crazy ... of course it wouldn’t work that way because it’s, it’s obvious.

[00:02:56] I mean, it’s very obvious that them being Black or immigrants have played a big part in why the law is treating them so leniently, and their perpetrators of the crimes being white is a huge part of why they are going to jail.

[00:03:11] Sorry if this is a shocking statement to you because you’re not keeping up with, well, the news or what’s been happening recently. , Across the West, this is in Europe and the United States, there have been repeated instances over the past, , half decade of crimes either being attributed to white people who clearly weren’t committed by white people, like there’s the entire list that keeps coming up or lists of,, to make it look as if white people are committing more crimes than they’re actually committing.

[00:03:40] , Or, , instances in which a crime was clearly committed by an immigrant and then was attributed to a white person. , Like, , the Iraqi asylum seeker, , Jamal T living in Germany who struck and killed a fourteen-year-old Danish girl, and then the police told their parents that it was a German who did it.

[00:03:56] , The Dutch police told them that it was a German who did [00:04:00] it, , rather than saying that it was an Iraqi who did it, and they explicitly said, “Because we didn’t want this to help right-wing politicians.” Now When BLM happened, I supported this because I believed that there was a systemic bias within police in specific areas against Black people.

[00:04:16] But right now, and people can be like, “Well, the academics aren’t saying it.” Of course the academics wouldn’t say it. Of course ... Are you f*****g stupid? Of course the academics wouldn’t say it. You know that as well as I would know that. But you can also just look at the data that we’re seeing at this point around things like the grooming gang coverup and be like, there is a coverup around non-white crimes against whites, and that we should probably be doing something about this

[00:04:42] Malcolm Collins: So that was one case And then the other case was the N-word case. So a woman was at the park with her kid, and a Somalian boy goes up and starts rifling through her diaper bag and stealing- This

[00:04:55] Simone Collins: is the woman.

[00:04:56] Yep, yep, yep, yep ...

[00:04:57] Malcolm Collins: yeah. And she called him the N-word apparently, and, and shooed him off. And I will note here that when she went to court for this, for what she said to the child the court determined that she was not guilty. But then there was a separate instance that she went to court to, because after this happened, a Somalian guy who by the way himself had raped a child, we’ll get to that in a second- What?

[00:05:21] Got up in her face and started yelling at her and filming her, and daring her to call him the N-word. Right. And after- Jesus Christ ... quite some time of being berated, she then called him the N-word and stuck out her tongue at him. This she was- Stuck out her tongue ... acquitted of. Mm. Now, I will note in court they were not allowed to talk about that this guy had raised $360,000 because this had, quote-unquote, “happened” to him.

[00:05:49] It’s really something he instigated. This... And it wasn’t his child, by the way. It was a, a random other child, and he just decided to get in this woman’s face.

[00:05:58] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:05:59] Malcolm Collins: Which is really creepy, but it’s really sort of a, “You do this to anyone in our community, and we can do anything we want to you. We can just, like, we are...

[00:06:07] You, you are second-class citizens in your country.” We

[00:06:10] Simone Collins: can- The Karen got out-Karend, yeah ...

[00:06:12] Malcolm Collins: however we want to you. Well, I mean, this reminds me a lot of the instance in, in Central Park where there was the Black guy who, like, threatened to kill the woman’s dog. Yeah,

[00:06:21] Simone Collins: he out-Karend the Karen, exactly.

[00:06:23] Malcolm Collins: Well, because yeah, they, they realize that they have...

[00:06:25] Like, when we see these kinds of displays in public, what we’re seeing is people who know. When we saw those kids release the video of the gang rape on Snapchat, it showed that they knew they wouldn’t be punished. Yes. That the legal system existed to protect them and to punish people who do not look like them.

[00:06:43] The-

[00:06:43] Simone Collins: So this is a story of parties acting with impunity supplanting another party, white women, that used to believe that they had impunity.

[00:06:52] Malcolm Collins: Exactly. And, and the, and the system has flipped, and people are seeing the system flipping. I mean, we saw heavy evidence of this at the Anthony trial where,

[00:07:01] Simone Collins: Accerella Anthony, yeah

[00:07:02] Malcolm Collins: yeah, where a lot of people were... Nobody disagreed that the kid was in a place he was asked not to be. He stayed there well over time. The other person was just pushing him out of the tent, and he stabbed him to death. Everyone agrees with that. But we saw tons of Black people in America think that he didn’t deserve to be punished for that, that you just get to kill white people.

[00:07:24] Speaker 5: For an understanding of how bad this situation is, this is a case in which an individual arrested for murder, and everyone agrees that this person murdered someone. , And when they were convicted, there were instances of individuals roaming around the town that this happened in and attacking random white homeless people

[00:07:44] Hey, wasn’t he on jury selection? No. No, he wasn’t. Oh, man. No, he wasn’t

[00:07:48] Malcolm Collins: And this is what we’re seeing right here, is when... A- and when I say that, I mean that very seriously. Like, it is clear from the protests that they believed, “ Well, it was his first [00:08:00] time doing it.” Like, therefore... first time in a premeditated murder? Like, what are you talking about? The... What are you talking ab- You don’t get to kill children.

[00:08:10] And the two instances here, what makes them so crazy is it’s not just that the white women went to jail, but that both of these people had graped a child and not gone to jail. So a lot of people are unaware of how strong the evidence is that this guy himself did grape a child. So there was a 16-year-old who was in foster care and ran away And he picked her up- I’ve

[00:08:31] Simone Collins: heard about her too.

[00:08:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah ...

[00:08:32] Malcolm Collins: and then he took her shoes so she couldn’t easily run away from hi- the, the place that he put her ‘cause it was like not an easy place where you could run away. And he apparently was living there with some other guys. And they, over the course of I wanna say like a week, ga- like just regularly graped her.

[00:08:46] And they also- Ugh ... when, when she finally escaped and they found her, she was severely malnourished. It looked like she was gonna die if she stayed there much longer. Ugh. And they took her in and they did a sexual violence test on her, and they all came back positive. So she was absolutely, as a child, graped by this man, okay?

[00:09:04] No, this, the judge wouldn’t let this be mentioned in the trial. He wouldn’t let it be mentioned that this guy had raised $360,000 off of this. He wouldn’t let it be ra- raised, that the GoFundMe was still operational. The, the, the defense attorney said it felt like the judge was acting alongside the prosecutor in this trial.

[00:09:22] To understand how unfair this trial was, you know when they’re like, “Oh, there was no Black people in the...” First of all, there were people of multiple ethnicities. And the reason there was no Black people, because the Black people kept saying, “I wouldn’t convict a Black person, so I can’t be on this trial.”

[00:09:35] So they used that to, to get out of the trial, right? Like, that was completely like the courts operating as they’re supposed to. And, and just in case you’re wondering, Black people show up for jury duty at half the rate white people show up for jury duty, which is another reason why they were less proportionally on the, on the trial.

[00:09:50] If you want to get the exact numbers on this, non-response to jury summons for white people is twelve percent, and for Black people, it’s forty-four percent

[00:09:58] Malcolm Collins: But in the case, in, in this particular case, the judge kept the trial going for 10 hou- it, it was until 10 at night. That is incredibly rare for a trial of this type. And it appears that he was trying to force what was an otherwise hung jury to come to an outcome, and there was some Karen on the jury, likely some Black Karen on the jury that was just like, “No, you absolutely have to convict this woman of something even if we’re dropping the, the instance with the child.”

[00:10:23] That’s what it looks like, and it looks like the judge was explicitly hiding evidence that would have made this go away. But anyway, to this girl. So you could say why wasn’t he convicted of graping the girl? He was convicted of graping the girl because the trial took so long to get to trial that by the time it got to trial she had moved out of the state and didn’t wanna be associated with the case anymore.

[00:10:45] Simone Collins: Oh. I mean, I get it, but...

[00:10:49] Malcolm Collins: This got... The, no, but it shows that, that there are groups of people who feel like they can do things with impunity within our country and in, within other countries because there, there was the case in Europe that we talked about, right? The, the instance there. And what I wanted to go deeper into with this is the best way to respond to and deal with this long-term, okay?

[00:11:15] Because a lot of people have just been like, “Well-

[00:11:21] We should be more racist ourselves. We should have more in-group biases ourselves. We should th- this is the appropriate reaction to this. Or just rage is the appropriate reaction to this. But if you are a, a, a fan of this show, you know that the thing that we care about most is being pragmatic, looking for real long-term solutions to the problems of society right now.

[00:11:47] And just increasing white racism against non-white groups will do literally nothing to make this better. And you’re like, “No, no, no. It will [00:12:00] help us make it better because we can, like, do what they’re doing.” And it’s like, how is that, how is that gonna help long term? It’s just going to justify in their minds what they’re doing and make it worse, while also preventing and hurting and pushing out the Black people, and there are a lot of them in the United States, who have fully integrated into American culture and do not show these behavioral patterns.

[00:12:26] And this is true for every ethnicity, because then you start to do this with any ethnicity that is gaming the system to outsiders. And you create a very, very small tent, and it’s a tent that can’t win electoral victories and looks evil because everyone knows when you say, and this is something that a, you know- Everybody, every, every real American who’s not, like, a complete shut-in, incel loser, all right, has some friend of some group that does this sort of stuff in a negative context that is completely and fully bought into American culture, excited about American culture it...

[00:13:07] That they would see as, as very, very, very American. E- e- every- everybody does. Everybo- And, and I’m not saying they... And not everybody has one of each group. Like, everybody might not have a Muslim, and a Hispanic, and a Black, and a you know, a Sikh, and a Indian. But I’d actually say if, if you’re, like, a well, like...

[00:13:28] I don’t know. If you’re in our, or s- For example, in our circles, we have multiple in every one of those categories that is completely the most American person I’ve ever met.

[00:13:38] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:13:38] Malcolm Collins: And so when you go out there and you, as a political stance, say, “This group can never be fully American, and we should always be wary of this group,” whatever that group is a large part of the electorate that otherwise would be sympathetic when they hear a case like this is gonna pull away from you, right?

[00:13:58] So the better strategy in terms of a reaction to this is to be much, much clearer that it is an us versus the them scenario, but an us versus them is not directly on ethnic lines. Us is the people who are playing within American culture, excited about the sort of Pan-American vision, and that shame this culture.

[00:14:23] And the them, and now that you have isolated the them to not be all X group or all Y group, but the genuine bad actors within X or Y group. The reason you wanna do this is because then you can escalate the punishment that you want that group and you want to signal that that group should have. Exactly.

[00:14:41] Because if you just go out there and are like, “We need to eradicate these communities in the United States,” and you use a term that’s too big to define these communities, then people are gonna be like, “Look, I agree this is a problem, too but now you’re talking about, like, people who I might consider, like, friends or stuff like that, or people who I know are genuinely bought into America and served in the military and blah blah blah blah blah.”

[00:15:06] Mm-hmm. “Like, how dare you say that?” But when you then go, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no.” When I say bad actors, I’m, I’m, I’m... I mean, like, the actual bad acting communities, and against those communities, I wanna take a maximalist stance, a stance that is more aggressive than you would see out of... Because for example, a group that makes this mistake is the Gropers.

[00:15:28] The Gropers create too big. They go all Indians, or they go all, you know, whatever, all Blacks, all whatever. And so then even in their often shocking to people stances about what needs to happen to these communities, it’s still fairly light. Like, “Well, we should look at them with more suspicion,” or, “We should maybe deport them when they’re breaking the law or not legal citizens.”

[00:15:52] Right? You know, which that is sort of like the maximalist Gropers stance. And that’s because they’re, they’re looking too large. But if I then ... [00:16:00] If you then come in there with the position that we are taking, which is No. You need to define narrowly and I think this is what Denmark did that was really good when we were talking about the way that Denmark handled immigrant communities where they’re like, “How do we determine what’s a bad community and what’s a good community?

[00:16:24] Well, if we have an immigrant family and one person in the family commits a crime, then we deport everyone in the family.” That’s an easy way to do it. That promotes in-group policing, right? And people are like, “Well, then innocent people will face the judgment for others’ innocence.” What you are looking for is proportional like, like what’s the probability that anyone coming into the country is going to be a negative net externality for the country, right?

[00:16:51] So you would say if someone in a family has committed a crime, the probability that somebody else in that family, especially from an immigrant group, is going to commit a crime goes up dramatically, dramatically, dramatically, especially if you’re talking about future generations. So you can just fix that by removing them.

[00:17:07] You know, not everyone deserves a place in the United States or in Europe. And I think another thing that we can begin to advocate more for, and I would really want this to be a mainstream advocated position within Europe and the United States, I think is an easy thing to argue for which is that we should have countrywi- wide immigration quotas based on crime rates and welfare rates of people who come from that country.

[00:17:34] So if we have a Somalian immigrants, we can look at the Somalian immigrant crime statistic vis-a-vis other immigrant groups. We can look at their welfare statistic vis-a-vis other groups, and then we can apply in sort of a, a global lottery. Okay, if you’re coming from a country where almost everybody coming from that country does not commit crimes then we can take immigrants from that country.

[00:17:58] If you’re coming from a country where almost everybody coming from that country does commit crimes then y- we, we can’t take you. I’m sorry, we just can’t take many people. I think a lot of the problems that we are looking at, and this is very fair because then this isn’t done based on ethnicity.

[00:18:13] This isn’t done based on, you know, any of those other things. Now, what you could say is, “Okay, well, what if you get people, like, migrating to a country like the UK or something like that for one generation and then migrating over?” I mean, if I was implementing this, I would probably implement the subheader that it is per ethnicity per country.

[00:18:31] E.g. you would treat somebody of Pakistani heritage who was living in the UK differently than you would treat someone of British heritage in the, the statistics in terms of the amount of people you would take. But, you know, that’s gonna be a lot spicier for the general public. Okay. So those are sort of policy moves that we can make in the short term. I think in the long term, the position that we need to take, the sort of nerd right, the, the

[00:19:06] Because as I pointed out, there’s like two sort of factions forming within the right. One has mostly gone off and seems to be b- better bedfellows with the left, but they draw from a similar pool of disaffected people who realize, especially young white men who are, realize that they are being systemically discriminated against.

[00:19:24] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:19:24] Malcolm Collins: And the groypers draw from this pool and the nerd right draws a lot from this pool as well. But has a much broader audience because we frankly don’t position ourselves like idiots and just sort of masturbate anger. It’s about actually winning. And one of the keys to actually winning while also maximally punishing the bad actors is bringing in people who are culturally American, who are good actors, who are otherwise ethnically or formerly [00:20:00] culturally from these sorts of communities.

[00:20:02] Because when we can do that, then we can all together act in the way that these communities act. Mm ... which is that, that’s the defense of our own that we should be implementing. And you can tell ... I’m gonna, I’m just be honest. Like, people are like, “Well, how do we, how do we know?” You can f*****g tell. You can tell the moment you f*****g see someone, you can hear the moment you hear them start talking which group they’re in.

[00:20:26] Right? They, they don’t exactly hide it. All right? They’re not exactly, like, sneaky about it, okay? They’re ... And people can be like, “Well, maybe they’re code switching or whatever.” And it’s like, yeah, except the people who are ... Okay, like, let’s talk about Black people, right? Like, we’ll just talk about the Black community here, ‘cause a lot of people here that’s, that’s what this particular context is about, although it’s more about Black immigrants, which are in the process of replacing the existing Black American community, which only have a birth rate of around 1.3 and it’s just being completely replaced by, by African immigrants.

[00:20:59] But there are also many good, you know, African immigrants. I’m not gonna say that as well, but talk about Black Americans. So I’ll, I’ll go over two for you, right? You’ve got one, like I’ll describe most of my Black friends, ‘cause we, we’ve got a number of Black friends. They are married, they are C- Christian, they have kids within their marriage.

[00:21:19] They dress well, they are well-spoken. And then you have somebody yelling, “Call me the N-word,” in a park. Now, that is not a behavior that any of the, the Black Americans that I consider a friend could conceivably even accidentally do. It’s, it’s not about code-switching. Of course they code-switch when they’re in certain communities, but it’s a, it’s a, a, a way of acting.

[00:21:46] And actually it’s, you’ve got to know that the, the, the people in these communities who want to be fully American, they often have dealt with more BS from these communities than even you have. The- Mm-hmm ... the, like one of my Black friends, really cool guy he actually had his eye knocked out of his head and dislocated by other Black kids who like were bullying him.

[00:22:12] I think it was, I think it was actually because they said that he acted too white. What? If I remember correctly.

[00:22:16] Simone Collins: Ah.

[00:22:19] Malcolm Collins: So like, you, now, but I, I’m just saying like when you know the, these communities, the way that they try to punish their quote unquote defectors, look at,

[00:22:29] Simone Collins: for example- No, this actually went, this went viral.

[00:22:31] So there’s this woman who moved from the East Coast to somewhere I think in California a woman who moved from I guess a primarily Black community to a community that only has like two other Black residents. Yeah. And she- I, I’ve seen

[00:22:43] Malcolm Collins: her. She’s fantastic. We,

[00:22:44] Simone Collins: yeah, she’s really fun, and she’s like, “Look at my son having fun in this pool.

[00:22:48] Speaker 6: I’m gonna tell you something. It’s a shame how many Black people are coming in my box talking to me. ‘Cause I am actually happy that I am living in a neighborhood that is clean, beautiful, clear, quiet, and it just so happened to be around nothing but white people. And I got Black people trying to make me feel bad ‘cause I wanted to raise my son in an environment where I don’t want him thinking smoking crack and being a prostitute, and then keeping your neighborhood dirty and dri- riding around disturbing the peace and with your pants up under your and you walk around wearing bunnets and being a bunch of dirty foot w****s and your fat ass kids is normal.

[00:23:38] Simone Collins: Are you gonna tell me that I’m making the wrong decision?” And sh-

[00:23:41] her, like, disses are insane. Yeah, I, yeah, the hate that has hit her is also insane.

[00:23:47] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the hate that she’s getting is beyond anything that, for example, Nick Fuentes has got in his entire life, like- Yeah,

[00:23:54] Simone Collins: for real.

[00:23:55] For real. For real, and all she’s, has done is move to a different community and expressed that she enjoys [00:24:00] it.

[00:24:00] And I think that a lot of people who haven’t made friends in these sorts of communities are just unaware of how done people in these communities are with the bad actors in their community and how much they want them flushed out of the community. , You- here’s a great, , video that Asma Gold was covering where some crazy, , a Black lady having an, an N-word moment, , grabs a cop’s gun and just shoots it randomly.

[00:24:24] She could have literally shot anyone, hit the cop. , Literally it’s the wildest thing I’ve ever seen. And when she’s on the ground being detained and trying to get sympathy from passersby, they’re like, “ What’s wrong with you?” Like, they don’t want this in their neighborhood. Nobody wants that in their neighborhood, right?

[00:24:41] The problem is these white women who don’t have to deal with the consequences of preventing police enforcement or a plan like this from actually being carried out

[00:24:51] Asmogold: Get up off

[00:24:53] me. Let go... Stop. Let go of my gun. Goddammit.

[00:24:58] Ow. Oh my God, bro, like-

[00:25:06] Why did you even have it outside? Cease shot fire. Oh my God

[00:25:09] Oh my God. Goddamn

[00:25:14] Jesus. Why

[00:25:15] did you even have it on safety? It’s not fired.

[00:25:16] Why did you have it loaded? Ah! Hit her again. Call the police. Get out the truck. I’m pregnant. 13-1, citizen. I’m pregnant.

[00:25:27] This guy’s just sitting there talking s**t to her. Oh my God

[00:25:40] Sit down! Keep your mouth

[00:25:48] shut. Quit walking away. Sit down. Sit down. Call the police. Don’t you move. Sit the f**k down. Don’t you f*****g touch me. Sit down. B***h, get away from my house. I ain’t gonna move. Huh? Yeah, b***h. Shut your mouth. Look at my face. Look at my face. This is what officers did to me. Shut up.

[00:25:49] Good. Shut up. Just keep your mouth shut. Why? But what- He just... It’s a random guy, “Shut up. Keep your mouth shut.”

[00:25:56] Malcolm Collins: Look at Adam McGold’s girlfriend right now, all the hate that she’s getting from Asian men.

[00:26:00] Simone Collins: I, I don’t know anything about

[00:26:02] Malcolm Collins: what’s happening there. So, so his current girlfriend is Chinese. And all of these Asians online are like, “Oh, proving the stereotype. Chinese girls will just sleep with any white guy.

[00:26:11] You know, betraying your Asian heritage, betray...” It’s like maybe it’s because she identifies as American and acts as American, and these sort of things don’t matter to her anymore, right? Basically what I’m pushing for here is a be maximally inclusive about people who want to be truly American, but then maximally punishing of the outside group, right?

[00:26:36] Mm. Because I, I mean, this is, you know, her or you can, you can see this from probably you don’t see this as much from Indians or Jews. They typically don’t have to deal as much if they integrate too much from, from their own communities. But you, you definitely see it from Asians and Blacks. So they’ll definitely target their own if they’re being overly American.

[00:26:55] Yeah. Yeah ... and, and you see it a bit from Hispanics as well. It’s not as strong as Blacks and Asians, but you definitely see it. Mm. And, and of course you know, a, when you, when you go after and you say, “I wanna punish these groups,” and anybody knows this who has friends from these communities, they’re like, “Oh yeah, absolutely F that, that community.”

[00:27:12] Like, if you’ve got Hispanic friends and you know about the Hispanic gangs or communities committing crimes the ones who want to be fully American, they’re like, “Oh yeah, you just go in and you just like execute all of those people. My life would be so much better if you handled that.” Yeah ... because they identify as American, and they don’t like this, these other communities casting aspersions on them.

[00:27:37] And what, and this is where you can say, “Well then, legally how do you determine, by the way, if people are like, “How, how dare you allow her to say the N word,” or something like that- If somebody grapes a child, okay, I think they sort of fall into the category. Like, The Boondocks N-word scene, right, where, like, they’re having an N-word moment-

[00:27:59] Simone Collins: [00:28:00] Oh

[00:28:00] Speaker 15: Webster defines a

[00:28:01]

[00:28:01] Speaker 15: moment as a moment when ignorance overwhelms the mind of an otherwise logical

[00:28:06]

[00:28:06] Speaker 15: male.

[00:28:07] Speaker 14: What did you say, b***h ?

[00:28:08]

[00:28:09] Speaker 14: Hey, squeeze it, .

[00:28:10]

[00:28:10]

[00:28:10] Speaker 15: Causing him to act in an illogical, self-destructive manner, i.e.,

[00:28:16] like a .

[00:28:16]

[00:28:17] Speaker 15: But they all end up bad. If they had their own category,

[00:28:21]

[00:28:21] Speaker 15: moments would be the third leading killer of Black men behind pork chops and FEMA. It’s a fact.

[00:28:28] Malcolm Collins: that is exactly what this guy was doing. That is within the, like, the Black community, the definition of the N-word in the negative context. The, the, if, if, if the trial was, which is what I would make it, is this man or is this man not being the N-word right now? Like, here’s a, a definition of the N-word.

[00:28:48] Is he being the N-word? That is, No, but I, in the court of, like, sane public opinion,

[00:28:53] And the reason I say in the court of sane public opinion is I’m talking about sane Black people as well. I’m talking about like there are, and I think that this is really important to emphasize for people, the majority, , of Black people who are having kids, who have stable families are on our side in this.

[00:29:11] When they see something like this, they are mortified. They are disgusted. The future of the Black community is not this. Okay?

[00:29:21]

[00:29:21] Malcolm Collins: Sane, like- Well,

[00:29:21] Simone Collins: I also think that hate speech laws in general became irrelevant when the internet came online and was, gained wide- widespread use because everything is hate speech online. Like, it, it is a means of communication.

[00:29:36] It, it is not even hateful. It is just the vocabulary used. I, I, it’s so impractical to make it, to legalize it now. I think in the same way that the the hurdle to pass as defamation is so high if you’re famous, hate speech needs to have a much higher standard for, like, being illegal in any country.

[00:30:02] Like, you have to have provably hurt someone’s employment prospects, wealth you know- Yeah, well- ... like family relations or something, right? You, you can’t just be like, “Well, this person said a naughty thing.”

[00:30:15] Malcolm Collins: I, I think that wha- what we... I mean, it, I, I think for me, honestly, the longer this goes on, the more I see these communities abusing America and, and American systems the more I see them abusing people even of their, their own ethnic groups, their own communities, the, all of that, right?

[00:30:32] Like, the, the Black community was the community when they would ask people. It was all the white Karens who were like, “I want less police.” And the Black communities were like, “No, no, no, no, no. We, we want the same amount of police or more police.” Like, that’s, that’s what they were saying. So if you have this view that the majority of Black people in America are actually of the un-American variety, for example you’re just wrong.

[00:30:55] I, I’m just gonna say, like, you’re just wrong. E- even in the ghettos, the vast majority want the ghettos clean from crime. They want people to have good employment. They want thriving communities, right? And they understand that if you came through door by door, house by house, and you cleaned up the bad acting families...

[00:31:16] And the reason I say families here is you can’t do this at the individual level, because then if they have kids, well, what happens if the kids stay in the country? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah,

[00:31:23] Simone Collins: yeah.

[00:31:24] Malcolm Collins: You, you really need to weed from the root. You clean out the bad acting families. Do you know how quickly America’s ghettos would revitalize?

[00:31:32] Do you know- Mm ... like, across all of it, all of this, how quickly so many communities would heal? The Hispanic communities in the United States, how quickly they would be able to heal if community by community you pulled out the bad actors by the roots, and created an incentive to actually Americanize? Or your Germanize or Britishize or whatever you wanna say.

[00:31:54] And I would go further with this and say that, like, I think that... [00:32:00] Look, there’s short-term goals we can have, like immigration regulations based on crime statistics of immigrants from that country. But where would I go maximally? Like, what would I say is maximally the goal if we gain more and more political power, like the ability to actually...

[00:32:17] It, it is frankly full deportations of all families that have not Americanized. I think we tried the multicultural experiment in the United States,

[00:32:28] Simone Collins: Well, in many other places. In the UK, in Germany-

[00:32:30] Malcolm Collins: In the UK ... in Sweden and note here, I’ll even make the term pretty broad here.

[00:32:34] They, they appear to have an aspiration to naturalize.

[00:32:39] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:32:39] Malcolm Collins: Do, do they, do they appear? Because, you know, maybe they just got here, maybe they’re from a place where, like, the, it is culturally genuinely different enough that they w- you know, they’re, they’re not, you know, speaking fluent English day one, they’re not whatever.

[00:32:53] But if they’re not, then, you know, have a checklist, and have monitoring. So you can put AI monitoring. If they ever on social media say, “I hate America, I hate white people, I hate...” You know, which is something a lot of them are saying. Like, “I think we, we need to kill all white people.”

[00:33:08] You will see this regularly in these communities, like the one who the Britain fought to get extradited from Egypt- Hmm

[00:33:13] because he was put in jail in Egypt, and the British government was like, “Oh, I’m, we’re so proud to have saved this person,” and you go through his tweet history and it’s, “I wanna kill all white people.” We need to accept that there is, while it may not be the majority of some of these communities, it’s, it’s, it’s very frequently a sizable minority.

[00:33:28] And that sizable minority, I think just export. Just get rid of them. Just get rid of them. Like, we don’t need them here. If anyone is saying, “I think we should kill all Black people,” if anyone’s saying, “I think we should kill all Indians,” if anyone’s saying, “I think that they are culturally un-American,” , i- or, “Kill all Jews.”

[00:33:44] I think that they are culturally un-American and ship them to Haiti. It doesn’t matter. The, the, no one in our political faction has ever said anything like that. You’re never gonna find an Asmongold post, you’re never gonna find a Leaflet post, you’re never gonna find a, a Tech Tone post about how we need to kill all of X group, okay?

[00:34:05] That is disgusting behavior. It’s un-American behavior, and if you have found yourself doing that because you thought it’s cool and edgy, you know, maybe we’ll have some sort of, like, time window on how this would work, like past however many years. But you need to know that people in our community, like the real, like, nerd right, see you as un-American as we see a Black person saying, “We should kill all white people.”

[00:34:28] And, and I mean, no Frank, like if I was president and it was operating under my regime with this, at the Anthony trial, you, you, you have police there. Somebody goes “White lives don’t matter,” arrest them to Haiti. Sa- To Haiti.

[00:34:43] Simone Collins: Straight to Haiti. To

[00:34:44] Malcolm Collins: Haiti. Same if somebody say, “Black lives don’t matter,” arrest them to Haiti.

[00:34:47] Now, the reason I would use Haiti is I really think it’s, it’s look, it’s a bad look to, like execute people. And you, you’ve gotta send... Because nobody, a, a lot of countries aren’t gonna want these people. These people will probably be a net positive for Haiti given the situation in Haiti right now, where like 89% of people with a college degree leave the country, right?

[00:35:03] W- well, that’s one of the reasons they’re in such a bad situation is they’ve got no human capital. And so, you send people there and- Haiti doesn’t have the geopolitical clout to push them back to America or throw a big enough fit for anyone to care. Mm. If they start, if, if, if Europe starts throwing a fit, I’m gonna be like, “Hey, hey, hey, Paris, why don’t you pay Haiti back?

[00:35:22] Why, why don’t you pay Haiti back, Paris? Because you owe them a lot of money. You, you made them pay for their own freedom so why don’t you pay them back? The, your banks still own those loans, Paris, so why don’t you handle that? Oh, you’re not gonna handle that? Then w- we’ll just keep shipping.” I choose Haiti for a reason, okay?

[00:35:43] It’s close, it’s cheap, you can send a lot of people there, they’re not gonna be able to get back very easily. You know, it’s not like they can just come back through really easily. Easy, easy way to handle the, the situation. And then you can be honest, hon- like, very seriously, honestly, I think you ship all these, like, un-American, like, racist [00:36:00] types to Haiti and they’ll begin to form their own communities there, which will likely be heavily racially segregated, but because they’re all, like, just known racists, it would work really well, right?

[00:36:09] Like, you’d have, like, the, the, the, the r- racist white community there, you have the racist Black community there, you have the racist, you know, Well,

[00:36:17] Simone Collins: and don’t those communities also h- like, get along really well? ‘Cause they prefer

[00:36:22] Malcolm Collins: segregation- They, they all think, yeah, like, the, the super racist whites get along super well with the super racist Blacks because they both hate the Jews more than each other.

[00:36:28] Simone Collins: Well, and, and they also prefer segregation and kind of hate each other, and they appreciate not being forced to mix, I think. And, like, pr- they, they appreciate not being forced to try to get along or something or pretend that they’re not different cultures.

[00:36:42] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I even think that, I even think that even these communities might prefer this.

[00:36:46] Now of course, I would be a bit more aggressive in how I did

[00:36:49] Simone Collins: this in terms of- Well, no one wants to be in Haiti. Let’s be clear about that part.

[00:36:53] So, you know.

[00:36:54] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but I, p- a- and people are like, this is a, when, and f- this is the thing that’s gonna be so hard for people if I actually move to implementing this.

[00:37:03] I’m like, okay, so you think that people should be able to call for the extermination of an entire ethnic group. And then they’re gonna be like, “Well, oh, no, well, I mean, if it’s white pe-” It’s like, okay, it’s, it’s Jews. It’s like, no, no, no, no. How about we just make a blanket ban on that? We say that’s one of the boundaries of what it means to be an American, and we get rid of all of those people.

[00:37:19] That would be really easy. I, I also I, I don’t think when, when people say, You know, kill all men or, or kill all women or whatever, right? Like, like, w- we, we can live without the other, et cetera. That’s another thing, completely un-American thing to say. That, that is, that is not traditional American values.

[00:37:34] That has never been American values. Get out.

[00:37:36] And the dragnet that’s going to get the most people is kill all gays. You know, even conservatives who are truly American who disagree with gays don’t wanna kill them. The people who wanna kill them are truly un-American. And the reason this gets so many people is anybody who genuinely wants to implement Sharia law wants to kill all gays.

[00:37:55] , There was a recent poll in the Britain that showed over fifty percent of Muslims in Britain wanted being gay to be illegal. Now, it didn’t go further and say they meant illegal as in terms of Sharia law, but it was a survey on Sharia law, and within Sharia law, the punishment for being gay is m-- death.

[00:38:13] A-- While I think that America, , you can be Muslim and be perfectly American, you cannot be a Muslim who wants Sharia law implemented and be perfectly American. You have to leave. , And I extend this further outside of America. , I extend it to Canada. When I say American, I mean our broad cultural mindset.

[00:38:30] I hate this idea of, like, the West or whatever. It’s not the West, it’s America. It’s American culture, and all of you bums are just living in it. So, , anyone who can’t fully naturalize to Americanism in Germany or Britain or Canada, , these sorts of individuals, get ‘em out. I think that there is no reason for a country to be taking on immigrants that want to exterminate another group eventually, okay?

[00:38:56] That is not, that is not something that is, , compatible with our value system. And if your response to this is, “But that means you’ll be kicking out people who were born in the country. Doesn’t anyone who’s born in a country have a right to...” Look at what just happened in Germany, where there was the Muslim terrorist who drove a van into a pride parade, okay? , This individual had tried to join ISIS.

[00:39:20] People knew that he had a terroristic intent, and the reason the German government didn’t remove him, despite him making it very clear he wanted to murder all gay people, , multiple times, literally the next day he had a, quote-unquote, “de-radicalization session,” , was because he was born in Germany. We need to remove this, “Oh, they were born here” thing.

[00:39:41] If somebody is loudly signaling they want to murder everyone in an ex- a, a group that is not theirs, that is the loudest sign that they are not an American or whatever, German-American, whatever. Get ‘em out Another thing I don’t think is compatible with the American value system is having sex with children. , I’ve [00:40:00] talked about how that can hurt other groups that, , do not have as long a fertility as white people do because white people have a significantly further, longer fertility window, up to three years longer than other ethnic groups.

[00:40:09] , At least one year longer, depending on the study you’re looking at, which can be- mean a lot if you don’t start having kids until you’re, like, thirty-eight or something like that, which a lot of people don’t. , That can, like, basically double your fertility rate. , But you know, if you’re gonna come to the United States, if you’re gonna come to Germany, if you’re gonna come to the Britain, I’m sorry, no marrying nine-year-olds, okay? That’s not- That’s not something that we’re gonna do in our country even if you do it in the country that you come from

[00:40:30] Speaker 2: Well, if you was born in Pakistan, originally from Pakistan, you must have been kidnapped by me. Would have been kidnapped by you? Of course. ‘Cause there is no option to get you, right? Okay. You have your, your women over there, though. Seriously. So you are in Canada, so I cannot say to you anything. Okay. I cannot touch you anything.

[00:40:47] Good, it is Canada. Yeah, well

[00:40:48]

[00:40:48] Malcolm Collins: And the f- the people have to come back and they have to be like, “No, no, no, no, no, this is a perfectly good thing to fight for politically. This is a perfectly...” I, I actually think and, and just imagine the country that we could have after this. If you actually did a complete extradition of all of the communities in America that...

[00:41:09] And, and obviously people are gonna be like, “Oh, they’re crying people on, on whatever.” I would make it people are like, “Oh, freedom of speech, freedom to, to film cops,” whatever. You know, I, I’d work on fixing that. I, I don’t think that you should have the freedom i- if you’re doing a big campaign like this because then it looks bad and it goes on the news and everybody hates it.

[00:41:26] So, yeah, if somebody’s filming this happening, arrest them, too.

[00:41:30] Simone Collins: Oh, just for being a passive party to, to-

[00:41:33] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ... not doing anything? I, I do not think the idea... What we’re seeing with these ICE raids right now where you’re having tons of protesters like trying to physically block them with their cars- Ah

[00:41:42] surrounding them with cameras, everything like that, it basically makes doing what needs to be done impossible.

[00:41:49] Simone Collins: And- Well, that’s their job. Well, that, that is what they are attempting to do. They are attempting to prevent these people from carrying out .

[00:41:54] I think the woke regime doesn’t realize how much actions like repeatedly jailing people for calling out child grapists who were not punished under the law in multiple Western countries, stuff like this, stuff like the, well, not punishing them in the first place, the hiding of the grape gangs, the, all of this stuff, how much it cumulatively is pushing average Americans like myself further and further and further to the right in terms of my long-term prescription, in terms of how we never, ever allow this to happen again.

[00:42:32] And, th-they, they’re going to be shocked with our power base finally gains power, right? Like, at, at how much further things are going to go than what you’re seeing out of the Trump administration right now. Because I think that the average American who’s not one of these woke weirdos who aren’t reproducing, who aren’t represented in the next generation at the same rates, , once they, when they start to lose power, it’s going to be really, really bad for them.

[00:43:00] Because so many of them are gonna say something like, “Well, what do, what do you mean you should just be able to... That’s a, of our whatever amendment rights.” And, and my take is, who’s the most beloved president in American history, or one of them? Abraham Lincoln, who completely ignored all of those rights.

[00:43:17] Abraham Lincoln. Okay? , You, we, they don’t-- Th- that, that actually isn’t particularly correlated to h- what a president can actually do and how we see a president. It’s just how do you get around them in the moment, right? , In terms of the way I would handle this, I’d probably just push, a policy that anybody who interferes with the, carrying out of a law enforcement officer’s duty is guilty of the crime of the individual that they are attempting to prevent from being arrested.

[00:43:48] , Because they are making that crime likely to be carried out in the future That’s, that’s where I’d go with that. And you can, you can build laws like this during, you know, periods of, , martial law, stuff like [00:44:00] that, , which is what you would need to do this because you’d have to govern as an executive. , But I’m just done with it. I’m just completely done with it. We have to fix this.

[00:44:08] We cannot have law enforcement officers going out there and having, , civilians constantly harass them and protect people who are rapists, people who are , , drug dealers, people who ruin lives of other humans systematically. That is not something that we can allow to continue.

[00:44:25] Malcolm Collins: Well, you send them to Haiti, what do they get killed and eaten by what- what’s his face? Barbecue, right?” It’s

[00:44:30] Simone Collins: like-

[00:44:30] Malcolm Collins: Barbecue. ...

[00:44:31] Simone Collins: well, I still, I do hold that it would be amazing to bring back some form of penal colonies because they appear to have worked.

[00:44:41] I mean, Australia’s doing great. Again, like, I need to learn more about the history of how Australia became Australia. Well, that, that’s what we would be

[00:44:45] Malcolm Collins: doing here, just ship them all, ship them all to Haiti.

[00:44:47] Simone Collins: Right, except, so Haiti’s not ideal- Why? ... because... Well, so Australia didn’t have the same level of baggage.

[00:44:54] And they, they didn’t, for example, like strip all the forests off the land, making it uniquely poor.

[00:45:01] Malcolm Collins: That is... Simone, Australia was an incredibly dangerous place to be shipped to. Sure. The death rate, I absolutely guarantee you, if we did this and shipped people to Haiti, the death rate would be- Fewer

[00:45:10] Simone Collins: people would

[00:45:11] Malcolm Collins: die than-

[00:45:11] way, way, way lower

[00:45:13] Simone Collins: than the early- Yeah, I guess I’m forgetting Australia, where, like, everything is slightly different and extremely poisonous.

[00:45:18] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and they were in the Australian wilderness. Where even the

[00:45:20] Simone Collins: koalas have, like, chlamydia and will k- kill you with that.

[00:45:23] Malcolm Collins: And most of the cont- What other- ... country, continent is a, a desert as well.

[00:45:28] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:45:29] Malcolm Collins: One of the most brutal deserts on earth.

[00:45:31] Simone Collins: Yeah, fair, fair. Yeah, it’d just be, we gotta terraform Haiti.

[00:45:36] Malcolm Collins: They could, they could do it themselves, and then people can proactively move there. You know, I think... And, and then we do it as the United States. Some right-wing government gets in in, like, Germany or the UK, and they’re like, “Hey, that, that worked pretty well.

[00:45:49] Like, let’s, let’s do that. Let’s let’s start, let’s start the, the boats moving,” right?

[00:45:53] Simone Collins: The boats movement.

[00:45:54] Malcolm Collins: The problem with what you’re suggesting is it costs money to maintain. And I don’t wanna pay to maintain these people. In fact, I think that this is something that we should also be doing with our prison system, is further just emptying them somewhere else somewhere far away.

[00:46:09] They, they figure out how to live or don’t, it’s not my concern. Mm. That is, that is, I think, where we... And, and what’s interesting about this is I’m able to be, in terms of my prescription about this, it’s 1,000 times more aggressive than anything somebody like Nick Fuentes would be able to suggest.

[00:46:33] And the very reason it’s able to be that is because everybody knows that in the groups he wants to accuse of things, there are many purely innocent families, purely totally patriotic American families, purely good-acting families. Yeah. And so he has to mitigate what he says needs to be done, whereas I don’t need to mitigate that, and our entire side doesn’t need to mitigate that.

[00:46:58] And we need to remember this is why it is so important to police any individuals in our community that tries to maximally assign blame. But yeah, that, that for me is, is the long-term political goal. We need an America that is full of Americans, and being an American isn’t something that’s gated by ethnicity or religion or your background or your gender, but it is something that’s gated by your ideals by what you say publicly and fight for politically, and your behavior towards other American citizens And when you take that set of positions, I think you can a- achieve...

[00:47:47] Like this, this is where I’m just sort of like I’m just done with it. I’m done with it, I’m done with it, I’m done with it, I’m done with it. But in being done with it, I want a prescriptive set of actions that [00:48:00] can be carried out in a way that, a- and, and advocated for in a way that doesn’t immediately get you thrown a, like just your entire movement scuttled because somebody’s like, “Well, I have a friend who’s like that, and they’re a perfectly great American.”

[00:48:14] Right? When you, when you properly address who are the bad actors, you can be more aggressive in your implementation policy. Now, this dragnet would likely catch a lot of the people, even on the other side. Like our political opponents on the right, a lot of the Draper-type people, a lot of the, you know, whatever, KKK-type people, the Nazi-type people, all these people were really LARP being right wing, but now they’re much more aligned with like the Islamist left.

[00:48:40] It’s gonna grab them too. People are like, “Do you have a problem with that?” I’m like, “I absolutely do not have a problem with that.” You know, and I’ll note here when I say racist, I don’t think it’s a problem to advocate for your own ethnic interests. That’s totally okay. You wanna create a community that’s like just your ethnicity, that’s totally okay.

[00:48:57] That is different from advocating for the eradication of another group.

[00:49:03] Simone Collins: Yeah, well, very. Very different.

[00:49:06] Malcolm Collins: That, that is where it, it... Or, or the complete dehumanization of another group. Like, they need to be treated... Anyway, I, Thoughts, Simone

[00:49:17] Simone Collins: This is, it’s just depressing. I, I understand, I mean, I could’ve given you this whole long argument about why the judge did that because, you know, they, they’re trying to carry out the law, and when they’re being, someone’s being tried for a very specific crime, that crime exists outside the context of anything else, and that’s just a tough part about the way that law works.

[00:49:41] But I also, I mean- Law is supposed to make society more just and functional, and it is very annoying when it fails to capture and correct horrible injustices. So at this point, like, what’s the point? But I think it just contributes to overall this sense of hopelessness around law and justice and the legal system when I don’t see actual crimes being prosecuted, and then I see complete non-issues getting this insane level of attention, so.

[00:50:17] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean this the, the, the level of, like, just the sheer audacity of literally two instances of them raping a minor, not facing jail time, and then the person who insults them going to jail.

[00:50:31] Simone Collins: Well, and again, that, that’s the law being kind of ridiculous. I think the dangerous thing about the law being this way...

[00:50:38] Because again, like, i- if, if you don’t have a victim who’s willing to prosecute who’s now left the state, what are you gonna do, right? Th- there are, there are very clear and obvious reasons why this, this wasn’t properly dealt with or, I guess, satisfactorily dealt with, dealt with. It was properly dealt with according to the law.

[00:50:57] But if this keeps happening, the problem, the problem with a justice system that doesn’t feel just is that people will just start ignoring it and turning increasingly to vigilante justice, which we’re already seeing. And- Which

[00:51:10] Malcolm Collins: is- If people care about law, then- ... again, is something I absolutely support.

[00:51:13] Yeah, well, yeah. Vigilante v- ‘Cause I don’t see much of any better And I wanna be, I wanna be clear to people, there is a big difference between vigilante justice and terrorism, okay? Yeah. If you are confused about the difference, terrorism is when you target innocent people to try to achieve your aims.

[00:51:28] Vigilante justice is when you target the persecutors of the bad action when the legal system will not target them itself. That is the difference, and I am generally pretty pro... It, it, obviously there are caveats on when vigilante justice makes sense and when it doesn’t make sense. You need to be absolutely certain with no shadow of a doubt that the person actually is guilty, right?

[00:51:53] Like, that they are... but in many of these instances where we have seen these bad actions take [00:52:00] place, it’s just obvious and apparent that the bad actors are bad actors, right? Like, they’re not even denying it, right? Like, they’re just like, “Yeah, of course I’m a bad actor. Of course I don’t care about you know, e- exterminate this group, do whatever.

[00:52:13] You know, I d- I don’t care about any of that.” Of course. And I, and I, and I would go further. Like, if I had a political party Or w- I, I, I mean, I do. It’s the Republican Party, and if I was able to gain further, like if we move up and we gain, if like the nerd right gains more control, I think this sentiment here is something that a lot of us are beginning to feel.

[00:52:32] Because at first it’s very much like, well, we can find a way to make things work. We can find a way to integrate these groups that are, are saying, “I do not plan to integrate. I don’t want to integrate. The biggest fear I have is my children integrating.” And I don’t think that people should be forced to integrate, by the way.

[00:52:48] I think that that’s genocide, right? Like, that is cultural genocide. I just think- They shouldn’t be here if they don’t wanna be American, right? Because being American is a thing. It’s a set of values. It’s a contiguous cultural history.

[00:53:03] Simone Collins: I mean, I d- counterpoint though people came to America because they wanted to be themselves.

[00:53:08] So I, I guess at one point-

[00:53:10] And I think that this actually types into the core of what makes an American American maximally above all else. It’s somebody who can disagree with other people’s ways of life, , but who doesn’t need to eradicate them for having different ways of life, whether that’s being gay or Jewish or Muslim or a conservative or a Trump supporter or a Democrat. , But the moment somebody moves into the territory of, “No, I actually will not allow other people to live the way that they want to live,” , that’s where I think it, it becomes more maximalist of just no. Mm-mm. You are not compatible with America, and if your way of thinking and if your people spread within America, that’s going to cause problems for everyone else.

[00:53:53] Malcolm Collins: They wanted to be what became American.

[00:53:56] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:53:56] Malcolm Collins: They wanted to be a, a... No, there was many things that this founding group had as aspiration. It was very explicitly not Catholic. It was- ... I mean, that’s one of the reasons for the Revolution is that they started- Yeah ... letting Catholics vote in, in, in Canada, and they were afraid that they would start letting them vote in, in the United States.

[00:54:10] So they had a, a number of ideas. So the idea of what it means to be an American has evolved over time. That is- Yeah ... absolutely true. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t still the beating heart of an idea of what it means to be an American a, an idea to build a city on a hill. I, I think that is a, a shining example of what humanity can be to everyone else on Earth.

[00:54:35] But that shining example, if we go back to the way the Puritans acted, th- anybody who did not act with moral y- you know, restraint was expelled from the Puritan communities, was harassed by the Puritan communities. They didn’t... Generally speaking, if you go to the Puritan communities in the writing, they didn’t care what your skin color was.

[00:54:54] They didn’t care what your background was. They cared that you lived a Puritan lifestyle.

[00:54:59] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:54:59] Malcolm Collins: And I think th- that can be extended. People are like, “Well Malcolm, why do you extend this to people of different religions?” Right? Like, “Why do you, why, why can’t you just be like, ‘We need to go back to being only a Protestant country?’”

[00:55:10] And it’s because I have seen what Americanism means to people today. I have seen Catholics that exhibit that. I have seen Muslims that exempl- that. I’ve seen James that example that. I’ve seen Jews that examp- exemplify that. And, and it’s not all of them of, of course. But the ones that do exemplify that, and, and almost everyone listening to this has some friend that’s of a different religion in America that purely and totally is America first, has American a, a, i- ideals, and wants the best future for America and its citizens, and is a positive externality for our society.

[00:55:45] Hmm. And a, and a lot of the world, you know, if you start doing this the purge or whatever you wanna call it, you start doing this they’re gonna freak out. But you look where our country’s gonna be 10, 20 years after you remove the bad actors that are obvious bad actors. [00:56:00] And I’m not even saying you need to reach that far, just the obvious bad actors.

[00:56:03] And we wanna do this in a way that doesn’t separate children from their parents, so that means children out too. And the Supreme Court wants to push back with this. They’ll probably be like, “Oh, birthright. You know what? You can’t punish,” whatever. Either we change the law or

[00:56:14] where’s your army? You know, g- get it handled. And, and I, and I also think to, to do this as a, as a military action is probably the, the right way to do it because it needs to be at scale and to, to, to actually be effective. And I think just the rest of us are all sick of this. The rest of us are just sick of this.

[00:56:32] And w- I m- and I’m sick of it from both sides. By that what I mean is I’m as sick of it from the Nick Fuentes side as I am from this, this side, right? You know, these, these people who do not exhibit value systems that look anything like American value systems and that are incompatible with a, a large and thriving political party as well just get ‘em out.

[00:56:54] Get rid of ‘em. Done.

[00:56:55] Speaker 4: And note here, I think that these are positions that even leftists would hold if they could accept the basic truth that there are actually people out there who want to eradicate gay people, who want to actually eradicate all the Jews, who want to actually eradicate all the Muslims. They just pretend that these people don’t exist, or these people don’t exist within migrant populations, or that these people are always convertible, when the reality is that it’s the people, for example, who want to kill all the gays the most in the immigrant population that are having the most kids.

[00:57:26] It’s the ones who adopted their values, the, you know, some people call them Western values, I don’t think-- it’s American values. American values around something like gayness, which it might be, “Well, my religion disapproves of it. We don’t need to build a legal system to eradicate them, , or hang them from cranes.”

[00:57:44] , Those are the people who are having far fewer kids it’s just, it’s just very patent in the data

[00:57:49] I was a rabid advocate for immigration historically. I started advocating against it when I saw that the groups that were immigrating in this time were not at all, in terms of the high fertility members of those groups, , integrating with the societies that they were immigrating into.

[00:58:07] And the ones that were the highest fertility were the ones that were openly stating that they wanted to eradicate other groups. What that means is eventually this issue’s gonna come to the head anyway, because within America, the people who think like me, within Germany, the people who think like me on the other side of this, on the more conservative side of this, , they’re also the ones having the most kids.

[00:58:26] , And the ones who are super woke and progressive and everything like that, and think, “Oh, yes, one day we’ll all get along,” they’re not having any kids. So this issue is eventually gonna come to a head. I think the real question is, what’s the most peaceful way to do it? And that’s what I would advocate for.

[00:58:40] I think the most peaceful way to, to handle this is an ex-immigration system that works alongside incentives for immigrating out of the country if you hold un-American values and if you do not want to be an American. , And I think that this system should work also on, you know, the leftists who are always like, “Oh, I wanna leave,” like every election cycle because their side didn’t win.

[00:59:01] You don’t see right-leaning people doing this. ,, I think, send them out too,

[00:59:04] , all you need to do is pull the lever. We can be a country of only the people who want to build a great America

[00:59:11] Simone Collins: Well, I’m really okay with countries in general being, say, like Disneyland. They have their rules. There are park rules. You pay to get into the park. If you don’t wanna follow park rules, then you’re out. It’s really simple. You’re also not allowed to have a baby in the park.

[00:59:27] Malcolm Collins: In Disneyland?

[00:59:29] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:59:30] Malcolm Collins: That’s-

[00:59:30] ...

[00:59:30] Malcolm Collins: Comical

[00:59:30] Simone Collins: to them. So there’s this, this I think, what, Danny Gonzalez did a whole thing about it. The, the, the rumor that if you had a baby- Oh,

[00:59:36] Malcolm Collins: yeah, oh, you, you mean have, having, like, giving birth to a baby in the park.

[00:59:40] Simone Collins: Giving birth, yeah. Giving birth in the park. If you had a baby in Disneyland, that you would g- get free entry for the baby for life, which is not true and was never true, but like- ‘Cause if

[00:59:51] Malcolm Collins: people kept trying to have babies in the park.

[00:59:54] Simone Collins: But no, but for, for, from a country standpoint, like, it just seems so reasonable to me that if you are there [01:00:00] on, like, a probationary status, you have a visa, you have a green card, and you break a law, you fail to file your taxes, or even you become a net tax drain to the country You may see yourself out.

[01:00:15] You’ve not followed the rules. We only want people to follow the rules here. How is that so unreasonable? And I think that’s how it is. Like in Japan, my understanding is that’s pretty much how it is. You break a law, you’re out, and it’s a very safe country to be in, so I wouldn’t mind that.

[01:00:34] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I think the real challenge that we have, and this has been the problem with the way that this has been enforced in the United States historically, is you get these, these breaking, these heartbreaking images of people being separated from their children, right?

[01:00:48] Mm-hmm. Or children being separated from their parents. And this is because th- this is a di- th- this tragedy is a direct result of what the Supreme Court just upheld which is, you know, you have a kid in the country, you get deported, the kid stays. That makes no sense. That is super cruel. We should be deporting families together, right?

[01:01:09] It’s, it’s clearly what’s in the best interest of the child- Yeah ... and it’s what’s in the long-term best interest of our country. The other thing that I would implement, I would say that we should make a, a, a big policy point of, reopen asylums. The, this country should have asylums. It’s where any homeless drug addict should be.

[01:01:26] It’s where most of the homeless population should be. It would be- I guess it

[01:01:29] Simone Collins: would be cost-effective, especially if they were in really inexpensive areas, because now offering those services to people in Manhattan, in Los Angeles, in San Francisco is so prohibitively expensive. Yeah.

[01:01:43] Malcolm Collins: No, you, you don’t put them in the city.

[01:01:44] You put it somewhere rural, right? Like, you, you, you take these people and you put them in an environment where they can be monitored and, and, and treated with, Kennedy, when he shut down the asylums, he said he was gonna build something else, and he didn’t. And now all the asylums just rotted, and all of these people are homeless.

[01:01:58] It’s like 70% of the homeless population or something has, like, a mental health issue, right? Yeah. Like, just, just reopen asylums and be maximally aggressive in terms of how you implement asylum policy. And we could have a city on a hill. That’s, that’s my new political position after seeing this.

[01:02:17] I’m, Is

[01:02:18] Simone Collins: this different from before?

[01:02:19] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, because before and this is something I didn’t really realize until the leaflet stream when I really started thinking through it. But the key to solving all of this from a political perspective is to make sure that in the and people can say like, “Well, their kids are innocent.”

[01:02:37] I really think people should be judged at the level of the family because that’s the way they operate in society. Like, kids are more proportionally to do whatever their parents do. And- Yeah, absolutely ... kids are 100% the responsibility of the parents. We let parents do all sorts of things to kids like circumcision or whatever, right?

[01:02:52] The, y- you know, you, you wouldn’t let, the, like, this, these are really big decisions. I, I, I believe a, a child, family can raise a child however they want. They can do whatever they want with the child. As people know, I’m, I’m very hard on, like, maximum cultural sovereignty in terms of how people parent.

[01:03:06] Educate them however they want, teach them whatever they want to believe. But the children also are that family’s and travel with the family when the family is- Yeah ... deported or anything like that.

[01:03:15] Simone Collins: Don’t separate kids from their families, for real.

[01:03:18] Malcolm Collins: But, but same with husband and wife. Like, they’re responsible for each other, right?

[01:03:22] Like, one gets deported, the other gets deported. That’s, that’s just the way it works because I think that would certainly make marriage a lot more serious on people if, if they knew that they actually had to make sure that their spouse... And whenever, I’m, I’mma be honest, pretty much whenever one spouse is doing something that’s illegal, the other spouse is aware of it and facilitating it in some way.

[01:03:43] It is, it is pretty rare-

[01:03:44] Simone Collins: No, no, no, no. Definitely not always.

[01:03:47] Malcolm Collins: Most of the time. And if not always, then you are still responsible for your spouse. I think re-engendering the role of what a marriage is really about, improving your partner, I think that’s really [01:04:00] important. So, I, I think the, the thing that really changed for me is on the leaflet stream I had this realization which was, okay- The problem that we keep facing when we see these bad actors is there is the impulse to label the entire community bad actors.

[01:04:17] Mm. It’s like, oh, we see X type of person doing X type of bad thing, so the whole community’s a bad guy. And we need to work to remove this community from our country, or we need to work to punish this community, or we need to round the wagon and act discriminatorily in the same way that they’re acting discriminatorily.

[01:04:41] And that’s all really, really stupid impulses because it intrinsically lowers your support base. But if you narrow to the actual bad acting cultural groups, right, you can maximalize the aspired punishment. Or not punishment, but just remedy, which might just be expulsion that is what I would like to see.

[01:05:09] Because I think that we haven’t been able to talk about the extent... I mean, even if you look at what ICE is doing now, it is very limited compared to what needs to be done. And I think everybody realizes that at this point. So, the people are like, “So you want an ICE that targets, like, naturalized citizens?”

[01:05:22] It’s like, because what we call a naturalized citizen is not always a naturalized citizen. I want a country that doesn’t feel like this anymore,

[01:05:30] For an example of what I mean by this, look at the German Muslim who recently ran through the Pride Parade. The reason they didn’t do anything about him, even though they knew he wanted to be a terrorist, even though they knew he wanted to join ISIS, was because he was a, quote-unquote, “naturalized citizen.”

[01:05:43] But he obviously did not share German values. He wanted to eradicate people who didn’t think like him. That is not German values. That is not American values. We need to accept that there are people who are, quote-unquote, “legally naturalized citizens” who do not share our values, who want to have sex with children, who want to run cars through Pride Parades, and those people, we need to stop protecting them.

[01:06:08] Like, I know that this sounds like a radical thing, but I really don’t think it’s that radical. Can we just not have it be okay to have these sorts of opinions and attempt to metastasize them within our countries? And when I say like this, I mean the crime-ridden ghettos that so many people, generally minorities in our country, have to live in and have to deal with because the police aren’t allowed to do what needs to be done to actually permanently fix the problem. We have the situation in New York where you have something like, , I think it was a crazy number.

[01:06:45] It was like ninety percent of the crimes were created, or no, I think it was something like forty-five percent of the crimes are committed by only three hundred and fifty people, right? Just doing it over and over and over and over again. Why can’t we just deport them? Why can’t we just be done with that?

[01:06:58] This is, this is not a problem we need to have. It’s a problem we can fix, and then the people who this very small group of individuals is repeatedly victimizing doesn’t need to deal with being victimized anymore. And the people who are victimized are generally ethnic and cultural minorities and religious minorities themselves

[01:07:19] Speaker 8: And I don’t even go so far as to say every country on earth needs to think it’s not okay to kill gay people. You know what? If you wanna have a country where they murder, whatever, you live by your value system. I just don’t understand why we need to have these people who believe this in our countries when we know they believe this

[01:07:36] Malcolm Collins: and I w- I want it... It’s possible. It’s possible to live in an America like that, and there’s a lot of us that want it.

[01:07:44] But it requires keeping our tent big and keeping our, w- w- I guess what you would say is a, a prescriptive aggression targeted

[01:07:53] Simone Collins: Sorry, Octavian is sneaking around. I agree with you. This is... It’s just depressing because none, [01:08:00] none of that is gonna happen. You know that, right? It’s

[01:08:02] Malcolm Collins: just not- I actually, I, I disagree very strongly politically, things are changing right now in the United States. The left is becoming the party of terrorism, as we talked about in a recent video.

[01:08:11] You know, Hasan Piker is keeping Destiny from speaking at an event, and telling the DNC what to do and what not to do. We have candidates running for Congress right now as Dems dropping LGBTQ stuff from their agenda because they didn’t want to offend their Muslim constituency.

[01:08:26] Simone Collins: All stuff that’s happening with Democrats.

[01:08:27] What, h- are you just saying that they’re crashing out so hard that they’re not gonna be able to get any votes?

[01:08:32] Malcolm Collins: No. What I’m pointing out here is the Democrat party, like, if you look at what I’m talking about doing right here-

[01:08:40] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[01:08:40] Malcolm Collins: it is ideologically what MAGA wanted. Yes. It’s what they wanted Trump to do.

[01:08:47] It’s just that Trump frankly, logistically, as sort of our first attempt to implement this, didn’t really understand the logistical difficulty of implementing it. It was difficult for him because the movement was still forming, it was still crystallizing. But I don’t think that my ideas or ideals here go against and, and note here, people are like, “Oh, this is really bad for families,” or whatever.

[01:09:13] The rule that I came up with on Leaflet Stream that I think is a very fair rule is you create an out for family members that turn in other family members. So if I, as a family, turn in one of my family members who’s doing something illegal I would get protected from deportation. The, to, to the point being, like, if your community is policing itself, that’s good.

[01:09:34] If your community is not policing itself, then everybody gets deported. Mm-hmm. But the reason I’m, I’m saying this is, is you’re like, “This seems like something that would never happen,” but actually, a large portion of the American political base wants something exactly like this. And it’s the base that has won elections.

[01:09:51] And our cultural faction is in the White House, right? Like, our cultural faction can win the White House more maximally in the future through electing ... I, I, I, it’s, it’s not that Trump isn’t competent or anything like that, it’s just that his particular political moment hadn’t had a lot of people. Like, more and more people are waking up to how much further we need to go than whatever ICE is.

[01:10:16] Mm. And as more and more people wake up to that I think d- just that so many people feel so comfortable fighting for the eradication of genders, of ethnic groups, of stuff like that, and most of them are on the left, the vast majority are on the left. Like, why, why do we live in a country where that’s happening?

[01:10:32] It shouldn’t be happening, okay? The, the, you, you have people in the, like the Zohran Mamdani, like, administration that have advocated for the eradication of white people, right?

[01:10:42] Speaker 9: For an example of one of these tweets, , “We, all of society, must break the stranglehold of whiteness wherever it may be.”

[01:10:49] Or, “ The invisible hand of the market my ass. The hand is white

[01:10:54] You get the idea. This is the type of thing that we should not allow within this country

[01:10:58] Whether it’s projected to white people, to black people, to Muslims, to gays, whatever group you are projecting this to, this should not be a normalized thing within the American system. , This is clearly, uh, vile, and we have created a world in, , Europe and in the United States where this is normalized against some groups and completely barred against other groups

[01:11:24] Malcolm Collins: Like, this shouldn’t ... These people, not just should they not be in a governing position, they shouldn’t be in the country at all Okay?

[01:11:30] And I think the, there is actually a political will for this, and if we keep growing, if our wider faction keeps growing, we can implement this political will. And I think a, sort of a, a, a truly color conscious but otherwise blind, and ethno-conscious, and religio-conscious. What I mean by this is this movement isn’t about not understanding your identity as an [01:12:00] individual.

[01:12:00] As a, like within the wider coalition when I meet, like for example, the Black families that are, that are in this wider coalition they often are culturally while they’re culturally fully American, they, what being fully American is for them often is different than what being fully American is for say, a white family, right?

[01:12:22] Like the foods they eat, their pastime activities, the things that they do will be slightly different, but still all holistically American. The, and, and their aspiration is still holistically American. I mean, it’s the same for like in Britain, okay? There is a form of being a British Indian which is fully British.

[01:12:42] Okay? There is a form of being a, a British Sikh which is fully British, but there are Indians in Britain who are not that as well. So this doesn’t mean that you need to completely conform to every cultural norm of that country. It means you need to aspire to be the, your ethnic, your religious version of the truly British Indian.

[01:13:06] And how, how you gate, people can say, “Well, how do you gate this? It’s a slippery slope.” And it’s like, you know what? I’m okay with that gating being very loose, because even when that gating is very loose, there are people who are clearly outside of it.

[01:13:19] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[01:13:20] Well, you have more confidence in this happening than I do. It would be great, but

[01:13:24] Malcolm Collins: What do you think would prevent it from happening at this point? The w- y- either the Democrats win and we become like a terrorist state, which is like great, okay, that’s terrible, or, or what, what else? You think that we don’t have enough power

[01:13:38] Simone Collins: with the Republican Party?

[01:13:39] It’s not just enough for, let’s say the Democrats don’t win and I, I don’t have that much confidence that they Wouldn’t win at this point, just considering how freaked out people are about AI, and I, I think they think socialism will be the solution, and the Democratic Party is that solution. So even if they don’t agree with it or they think it’s crazy, they’re also just thinking about their own survival and economic wellbeing, and they’re just trying to get their bag.

[01:14:06] And so that’s that. I... You can’t... Y- look, look at how little we’ve been able to do with ICE even though we came in very strong with this administration. I, I mean, we- It’s just extremely difficult ...

[01:14:20] Malcolm Collins: we’ve done a lot with ICE. It hasn’t been enough, but it was because we hadn’t attempted something like this

[01:14:27] Simone Collins: before.

[01:14:27] Right, but even if you have the political majority, getting these things executed- No, what you’re missing is- ... changing these broad policies, like from a legislative standpoint, what would have to happen for this kind of policy to- The ICE

[01:14:37] Malcolm Collins: attempt, Simone, was our very first attempt at doing this. It was something that is a, a Democrat-

[01:14:43] Simone Collins: Well, I don’t know.

[01:14:44] Obama didn’t hear deport more people than Trump did?

[01:14:47] Malcolm Collins: I- well, in terms of the way that ICE was going about this, okay, in this administration, this was the first time somebody had attempted something like this at scale. This is an incredibly logistically complicated thing to do. Yes. It’s an incredibly legally complicated thing to do.

[01:15:03] To be like, “Oh, it didn’t work the first time, therefore it will never work,” I think is a really... It’s, it’s not pessimistic, it’s stupid.

[01:15:10] Simone Collins: Like- And I’m not even talking about logistical limitations of it. I agree that those can be overcome. But I-

[01:15:15] Malcolm Collins: You’re talking about the legal limitations- Yes ... and what I’m saying is, and I’ve said this before, is neither si- the Democrats at this point in American politics do not believe in fair elections.

[01:15:26] They believe in winning, okay? You let a group like that get into power, that’s going to be really, really bad going forwards. And as a result of that mindset, I think increasingly, and we’re going to see this happen more and more on the right, we’ll be taking the same mindset. And this means when the Senate or when the Supreme Court says, “Oh, this isn’t the way you do things.

[01:15:50] Oh, I’m gonna do X. I’m gonna do Y,” you maximally l- l- use the powers of the presidential branch, which has become increasingly [01:16:00] powerful over time, to prevent that. You just say, “No, you.” And that has been done before in American history. And if you have enough political will, what really matters is you have enough political will among the military and police forces to carry this out.

[01:16:14] You don’t need to play by all the normal procedures.

[01:16:17] Simone Collins: Do you- Well, yeah. What I do appreciate about this is w- something that has dismayed many people, regardless of political affiliation, is that laws aren’t enforced, right? That you, you... Someone can break a law and hurt you, and you can tell the authorities about it, and nothing is ultimately done.

[01:16:32] Malcolm Collins: So,

[01:16:33] Simone Collins: th- the- And similarly You can use that against the people who are, you know, making it impossible for you to enact meaningful change by being like, “All right, well, you come in force then,” because they

[01:16:44] Malcolm Collins: can- No, no, the, the point I’m making here is, is, is who is often thought of as the best or one of the best, maybe second best American president?

[01:16:51] It’s Abraham Lincoln. Did Abraham Lincoln listen to his Supreme Court at all? No. Mm-hmm. Fair point. Did he follow procedure at all? No. He just did whatever the he wanted to do, right?

[01:17:02] And I think a lot of people, when we look back at a figure like Abraham Lincoln, and we say he was one of the best American presidents ever, and pretty much everyone agrees on that, right?

[01:17:11] When we look at that sort of behavior as being what we consider the best of the best in American history, then what we can see is clearly the American historical and cultural palette is open to this sort of action Especially when, and you can say, “Well, we’re not quite at civil war yet,” and it’s like, I don’t know.

[01:17:34] I mean, I’m looking at the leftists right now. I think we’re pretty effing close to civil war. In terms of, when I say civil war, I don’t mean, like, armed people in the streets. I mean one side or the other side just trying to claim permanent power. And being aware of how bad that’s gonna be if it’s a leftist who achieves that, I think is, and I think it’s one of the things that, that we on the right need to get a lot more comfortable with, is eventually somebody’s gonna grab power. Somebody’s gonna say, “I don’t believe the election results,” when they lose, and they’re going to have enough put in place for, and, and be able to sew enough doubt about the electoral process that they’re not gonna have to leave.

[01:18:14] Okay? Because right now we are already seeing, like we have seen election fraud very obviously in some instances on both sides. So all you need to do is, is, is have enough proof of election fraud to say, “I don’t need to leave office.” And then you’ve, you’ve, you’ve granted power. That’s a civil war.

[01:18:32] That’s the end of it, right? And so, building comfort with that and, and what that means. I, I guess what I’m talking about here is I’m not saying that we do this within the existing political climate that America has right now. I’m suggesting that we do this within the political climate that America seems to be evolving into.

[01:18:48] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[01:18:49] It’s dark. But we’re in interesting times, so who knows, right?

[01:18:53] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

[01:18:53] Simone Collins: All right. Love you, Simone.

[01:18:55] Malcolm Collins: I love you too. And in the comments, you guys can, can chime in, say if I’m being overly aggressive in my prescriptions around this. But I, I think that it’s, it’s sort of where... It’s, it’s a position that I don’t think anybody wanted to come to.

[01:19:08] Everybody was like, “We can make this work. We can make this work. We can make this work.” And then we saw what was happening. We found out that the Southern Poverty Law Center was the major funder of the KKK and the Nazi Party in the United States. We found out, we found out how much of the culture war was faked, how bad and institutionalized racism in this country is, and anti-American sentiment in this country is, and that and we tried the nice way of handling this, which was ice.

[01:19:37] Now, now we need super ice.

[01:19:39] Simone Collins: Super ice. Oh, lordy.

[01:19:42] Malcolm Collins: Nitro, as you call it.

[01:19:44] Simone Collins: Ice nitro.

[01:19:46] Malcolm Collins: Love you, Simone.

[01:19:47] Simone Collins: I love you too.

[01:19:48] PragNationalist posted research that found that people who restrict their torsos take less risky decisions, at least in a research, like, I, I haven’t read the, the, the study, [01:20:00] but probably- Restrict their

[01:20:01] Malcolm Collins: torsos? Like a corset?

[01:20:02] Simone Collins: Like a corset or like a girdle.

[01:20:04] Probably they were wearing girdles or, like, medical bonding materials. And, Yeah, it occurred to me. I haven’t breathed fire since started wearing stays. Haven’t jumped out of a plane or off a cliff. So.

[01:20:18] You breathed fire before?

[01:20:20] Yeah, actually. Not good for you. These are all things you haven’t

[01:20:23] Malcolm Collins: done since you met me, and I-

[01:20:25] Simone Collins: Because the the liquid that you use to breathe fire is a little carcinogenic, so it’s, like, really not recommended.

[01:20:32] But it’s super fun. It’s really fun. I, I have picture evidence. Oh. And now I know. Now I... You know, if, if you need a fire breather, Malcolm, I can step in.

[01:20:49] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay, okay.

[01:20:50] Simone Collins: I can...

[01:20:54] Oh, yeah.

[01:20:55] Malcolm Collins: Getting the segment down for a bit today, but I, y- I added, and it was working last I tested, is that now you can have companions call you on your cellphone.

[01:21:05] Simone Collins: Yandere girlfriend. I mean, the next- Oh, my gosh ...

[01:21:07] Malcolm Collins: feature I’m thinking of adding is, is texting.

[01:21:10] Simone Collins: Sweet. Oh, yeah, that’ll be great.

[01:21:11] Malcolm Collins: Getting it so that...

[01:21:12] ‘Cause the, the agents could already do this, but-

[01:21:14] Simone Collins: Yeah, someone else who can send me unhinged texts. Great. Oh, I’m so glad I cut your hair. Your hair’s so much better. Oh, yay. You look so hot. Not that you don’t always look hot, but you look proper hot when you have your hair properly cut.

[01:21:33] Yeah.

[01:21:34] Speaker 11: It’s an apple? I don’t know about that. Come on. It’s maybe some kind of fruit. Come on, Indie. Let’s go, the storm’s coming. The storm’s coming. The storm’s coming. Oh, ducks. Duck, duck. Okay. Oh, Stacy, that’s a great method. I love that. Yeah, there’s more up there. I don’t know. Go have- You, you have a camera. Yeah, I’m recording Indie.

[01:22:03] Speaker 10: I’m coming. Aww. Yes, she carries her... What is that, Indie? Is it an apple? It’s apple. It’s your apple.

[01:22:15] Speaker 11: All right. It’s funny, ducky. That’s right