Book Overflow

This week Carter and Nathan read Donella Meadows’ Thinking in Systems. A foundational primer on systems thinking, the book explores how stocks, flows, feedback loops, and leverage points shape everything from ecosystems to organizations. Join them as they discuss how systems thinking applies to software engineering, the hidden structures behind burnout and tech debt, and how to make high-leverage changes in complex systems.

-- Books Mentioned in this Episode --

Note: As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

----------------------------------------------------------

Thinking in Systems by Donella H. Meadows

https://amzn.to/4cMB35k (paid link)

Tidy First?: A Personal Exercise in Empirical Software Design by Kent Beck

https://amzn.to/3RoB9pR (paid link)

Refactoring: Improving the Design of Existing Code by Martin Fowler

https://amzn.to/43Wqk5Q (paid link)

Fundamentals of Software Architecture: An Engineering Approach by Mark Richards and Neal Ford

https://amzn.to/3Y7CNjk (paid link)

One Nation Under Blackmail, Vol. 1: The Sordid Union Between Intelligence and Crime that Gave Rise to Jeffrey Epstein by Whitney Alyse Webb

https://amzn.to/3RsMt4f (paid link)

Slow Productivity: The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout by Cal Newport

https://amzn.to/3EH8MAe (paid link)

The Software Engineer's Guidebook: Navigating Senior, Tech Lead, and Staff Engineer Positions at Tech Companies and Startups by Gergely Orosz

https://amzn.to/3ExwPSa (paid link)

What Is ChatGPT Doing ... and Why Does It Work? by Stephen Wolfram

https://amzn.to/4iuSUim (paid link)

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00:00 Intro

01:41 About the Book

03:43 Thoughts on the Book

08:07 Covering the Foundations and Defining Terms

16:36 Feedback loops

22:31 Overconfidence and why models lead us astray.

35:56 Paradigms and Framing

49:30 Leverage Points

01:02:04 Final Thoughts

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Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kj6DLCEWR5nHShlSYJI5L

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/book-overflow/id1745257325

X: https://x.com/bookoverflowpod

Carter on X: https://x.com/cartermorgan

Nathan's Functionally Imperative: www.functionallyimperative.com

----------------

Book Overflow is a podcast for software engineers, by software engineers dedicated to improving our craft by reading the best technical books in the world. Join Carter Morgan and Nathan Toups as they read and discuss a new technical book each week!

The full book schedule and links to every major podcast player can be found at https://www.bookoverflow.io

This week Carter and Nathan read the Kent Beck's The Good News Factory. A sequel to Tidy First?, The Good News Factory explores the economics of software and instructs tech executives on how to produce teams that are constantly delivering good news. Join them as they discuss balancing feature development and systems improvment, the economic incentives of software, and more!

-- Books Mentioned in this Episode --

Note: As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

----------------------------------------------------------

----------------

00:00 Intro

12:23 About the Book

14:08 Thoughts on the Book

16:24 Features, Structure, Coupling, and Cohesion

33:13 Responding to Organizational Changes

42:12 3X: Explore, Expand, and Extract

56:54 Final Thoughts

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Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kj6DLCEWR5nHShlSYJI5L

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/book-overflow/id1745257325

X: https://x.com/bookoverflowpod

Carter on X: https://x.com/cartermorgan

Nathan's Functionally Imperative: www.functionallyimperative.com

----------------

Book Overflow is a podcast for software engineers, by software engineers dedicated to improving our craft by reading the best technical books in the world. Join Carter Morgan and Nathan Toups as they read and discuss a new technical book each week!

The full book schedule and links to every major podcast player can be found at https://www.bookoverflow.io

Following up on their recent discussion on software design (inspired by Book Overflow!), John Ousterhout and Robert "Uncle Bob" Martin join Carter and Nathan for their first ever joint interview! Join them as they discuss what it was like working together, how the discussion came to be, and what they both learned from the process!

Ousterhout/Martin Discussion: https://github.com/johnousterhout/aposd-vs-clean-code

-- Books Mentioned in this Episode --

Note: As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

----------------------------------------------------------

A Philosophy of Software Design by John Ousterhouthttps://amzn.to/3XCPliz (Paid Link)Clean Code by Robert Martinhttps://amzn.to/4iJ4Ttq (Paid Link)

Clean Coder, The: A Code of Conduct for Professional Programmers by Robert C. Martin 

https://amzn.to/3E9zf9l (Paid Link)

We, Programmers: A Chronicle of Coders from Ada to AI by Robert Martin

https://amzn.to/42aW194 (Paid Link)

Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software by Erich Gamma, Richard Helm, Ralph Johnson, John Vlissides

https://amzn.to/4hRbYa3 (Paid Link)

Structured Analysis and System Specification by Tom DeMarco, P. J. Plauger

https://amzn.to/3E0Y7QD (Paid Link)

Practical Guide to Structured Systems Design by Meilir Page-Jones

https://amzn.to/4hNd8mV (Paid Link)

Design by Contract: By Example First Edition by Richard Mitchell, Jim McKim, Bertrand Meyer

https://amzn.to/4i4X6VW (Paid Link)

Structured Programming by Edsger Wybe Dijkstra, C. A. R. Hoare, Ole-Johan Dahl

https://amzn.to/42fXfzX (Paid Link)

On the Criteria To Be Used in Decomposing Systems into Modules by D.L. Parnas

https://wstomv.win.tue.nl/edu/2ip30/references/criteria_for_modularization.pdf

----------------

00:00 Intro

03:11 Origin of the debate

06:52 Motivation for the debate

11:35 How did you settle on the terms of the debate?

14:30 Overcoming Self-Doubt and Engaging with others

20:06 Influences in Developing Design Aesthetics

28:45 Taking time for Deep Thinking vs Shallow thinking

33:58 Writing Code and Reducing Cognative Load

39:05 Encouraging healthy debate

42:38 Coding Style, Retirement, and what’s next

49:40 Final Thoughts

----------------

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kj6DLCEWR5nHShlSYJI5L

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/book-overflow/id1745257325

X: https://x.com/bookoverflowpod

Carter on X: https://x.com/cartermorgan

Nathan's Functionally Imperative: www.functionallyimperative.com

----------------

Book Overflow is a podcast for software engineers, by software engineers dedicated to improving our craft by reading the best technical books in the world. Join Carter Morgan and Nathan Toups as they read and discuss a new technical book each week!

The full book schedule and links to every major podcast player can be found at https://www.bookoverflow.io

This week Carter and Nathan take a break from books and discuss the the seminal Worse is Better essays by Richard P. Gabriel. Join them as they how Unix and C were once perceived, tradeoffs in software design, and whether or not worse is truly better!

-- Books Mentioned in this Episode --

Note: As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

----------------------------------------------------------

Worse is Better

https://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html

Rise of Worse is Better

https://www.dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html

----------------

00:00 Intro

01:37 About the Essays

06:18 Thoughts on the Essays

15:48 "the right thing" vs "worse is better" or MIT vs New Jersey

39:59 Usefulness: Why worse beats better

49:41 when worse is worse

57:31 Final Thoughts

----------------

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kj6DLCEWR5nHShlSYJI5L

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/book-overflow/id1745257325

X: https://x.com/bookoverflowpod

Carter on X: https://x.com/cartermorgan

Nathan's Functionally Imperative: www.functionallyimperative.com

----------------

Book Overflow is a podcast for software engineers, by software engineers dedicated to improving our craft by reading the best technical books in the world. Join Carter Morgan and Nathan Toups as they read and discuss a new technical book each week!

The full book schedule and links to every major podcast player can be found at https://www.bookoverflow.io

In this episode, Gergely Orosz joins Carter and Nathan to discuss his book The Software Engineer's Guidebook. Join them as Gergely reflects on the differences between writing a book and The Pragmatic Engineer newsletter, the importance of professional networks, and the state of the hiring market today!

https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/

-- Books Mentioned in this Episode --

Note: As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

----------------------------------------------------------

The Software Engineer's Guidebook

https://amzn.to/41AxMAL (Paid Link)

Thinking in Systems by Donella H. Meadows https://amzn.to/4kGtmkI (Paid Link)

Tidy First?: A Personal Exercise in Empirical Software Design by Kent Beck

https://amzn.to/4bHoNCv (Paid Link)

Become an Effective Software Engineering Manager: How to Be the Leader Your Development Team Needs by Dr. James Stanier

https://amzn.to/4kCzvhD (Paid Link)

The Engineering Executive's Primer: Impactful Technical Leadership by Will Larsonhttps://amzn.to/4hpRDIS (Paid Link)

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00:00 Intro

02:11 What inspired you to write the book?

08:46 Gaining the Vocabulary and learning on your own

13:45 Writing a Newsletter vs Writing a Book

22:55 Taking initiative and Embracing Curiosity

35:30 Working Remotely and Cultivating Connections

41:13 Periodic Effort: Stretching, Executing, and Coasting

46:41 Navigating Company Cultures

50:05 The Future of Interviews: AI Cheating and the end of the Remote Interviews

58:33 How the job market has changed

01:05:10 Closing Thoughts

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kj6DLCEWR5nHShlSYJI5L

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/book-overflow/id1745257325

X: https://x.com/bookoverflowpod

Carter on X: https://x.com/cartermorgan

Nathan's Functionally Imperative: www.functionallyimperative.com

----------------

Book Overflow is a podcast for software engineers, by software engineers dedicated to improving our craft by reading the best technical books in the world. Join Carter Morgan and Nathan Toups as they read and discuss a new technical book each week!

The full book schedule and links to every major podcast player can be found at https://www.bookoverflow.io

This week Carter and Nathan discuss the second half of System Design Interview by Alex Xu. Join them as they discuss how system design interviews prepare you for daily work, what system design questions they've been asked in the past, and their thoughts on Apple Intelligence!

Byte Byte Go: https://bytebytego.com/

-- Books Mentioned in this Episode --

Note: As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

----------------------------------------------------------

System Design Interview by Alex Xu

https://amzn.to/4iUR9vg (paid link)

-----

00:00 Intro

03:30 Thoughts on the Book

14:01 Nathan's Favorite Case Study and Thoughts on Take-Home Problems

21:23 non sequitur: Applying for Jobs, Recruiters, and Compensation

36:03 non sequitur: roasting Apple on how bad Siri is right now.

41:57 Carter's favorite case study and New books for the backlog

49:07 Final Thoughts

----------------

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kj6DLCEWR5nHShlSYJI5L

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/book-overflow/id1745257325

X: https://x.com/bookoverflowpod

Carter on X: https://x.com/cartermorgan

Nathan's Functionally Imperative: www.functionallyimperative.com

----------------

Book Overflow is a podcast for software engineers, by software engineers dedicated to improving our craft by reading the best technical books in the world. Join Carter Morgan and Nathan Toups as they read and discuss a new technical book each week!

The full book schedule and links to every major podcast player can be found at https://www.bookoverflow.io

In this episode, Carson Gross joins Carter and Nathan to discuss his book Hypermedia Systems Join them as Carson reflects on the process of publishing the book, the development of HTMX, and how to deal with setbacks!

John Ousterhout and Bob Martin Conversationhttps://github.com/johnousterhout/aposd-vs-clean-code

Fixi.js (a new project from Carson Gross)https://github.com/bigskysoftware/fixi

Triptych - New Attributes for HTML

https://github.com/alexpetros/triptychHTMXhttps://htmx.org/-- Books Mentioned in this Episode --Note: As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.----------------------------------------------------------Hypermedia Systemshttps://amzn.to/4iou43T (Paid Link)Philosophy of

Software Design by John Ousterhouthttps://amzn.to/4bEVMHp (Paid Link)

The Master and Margarita: 50th-Anniversary Edition by Mikhail Bulgakov

https://amzn.to/3R1pzR3 (Paid Link)

Worse is Better (essay)https://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html

No Silver Bullet

https://worrydream.com/refs/Brooks_1986_-_No_Silver_Bullet.pdf----------------

00:00 Intro

01:47 What Inspired you to write Hypermedia Systems

07:37 Challenging Assumptions, Hypermedia, Javascript, and Worse is Better

13:51 Roy Fielding, REST, HATEOAS and mispronouncing things.

16:15 What is the most surprising outcome of writing Hypermedia Systems?

19:42 Creating fixi.js

28:32 Discussing Progressive Enhancement, Triptych, and Browser Standards

35:40 Dealing with Setbacks and Success

41:01 No Silver Bullet, and the Ousterhout and Martin debate

50:00 What if No HTMX? Hypercard

56:11 Tool chains, debuggers, and developer expectations

01:01:29 Final Thoughts

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Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kj6DLCEWR5nHShlSYJI5L

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/book-overflow/id1745257325

X: https://x.com/bookoverflowpod

Carter on X: https://x.com/cartermorgan

Nathan's Functionally Imperative: www.functionallyimperative.com

----------------

Book Overflow is a podcast for software engineers, by software engineers dedicated to improving our craft by reading the best technical books in the world. Join Carter Morgan and Nathan Toups as they read and discuss a new technical book each week!

The full book schedule and links to every major podcast player can be found at https://www.bookoverflow.io

This week Carter and Nathan discuss the first half of System Design Interview by Alex Xu. Join them as they discuss Alex's excellent newsletter Byte Byte Go, how systems design interviews reflect actual jobs, and what tips and tricks Alex offers to ace your interviews!

Byte Byte Go: https://bytebytego.com/

-- Books Mentioned in this Episode --Note: As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.----------------------------------------------------------System Design Interview – An insider's guide by Alex Xu https://amzn.to/3EXFYUa (paid link)Team Topologies by Matthew Skelton and Manuel Paishttps://amzn.to/4kgfH3F (paid link)----------------

00:00 Intro

01:33 About the Book

03:08 Thoughts on the Book

11:57 What is a Systems Design Interview?

22:15 Why focus on Systems Design Interview?

27:26 Our Experience with System Design Interviews

36:09 Strategies, Approach, and Expertise

40:20 Importance of Back of the Envelope Calculations

45:39 Learning through building

57:02 Final Thoughts

----------------

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kj6DLCEWR5nHShlSYJI5L

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/book-overflow/id1745257325

X: https://x.com/bookoverflowpod

Carter on X: https://x.com/cartermorgan

Nathan's Functionally Imperative: www.functionallyimperative.com

----------------

Book Overflow is a podcast for software engineers, by software engineers dedicated to improving our craft by reading the best technical books in the world. Join Carter Morgan and Nathan Toups as they read and discuss a new technical book each week!

The full book schedule and links to every major podcast player can be found at https://www.bookoverflow.io

In this episode of Book Overflow, Carter and Nathan discuss the second half of Team Topologies by Matthew Skelton and Manuel Pais. Join them as they discuss how teams evolve, when you can tell a team might be reaching its breaking point, and what a company needs beyond the team topologies!

-- Books Mentioned in this Episode --

Note: As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

----------------------------------------------------------

Team Topologies by Matthew Skelton and Manuel Pais

https://amzn.to/4kgfH3F (paid link)

----------------

00:00 Intro

01:26 About the Book

03:10 Thoughts on the Book

09:20 Team Interaction Modes

41:01 Changing Team Structures

01:05:04 Final Thoughts

----------------

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kj6DLCEWR5nHShlSYJI5L

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/book-overflow/id1745257325

X: https://x.com/bookoverflowpod

Carter on X: https://x.com/cartermorgan

Nathan's Functionally Imperative: www.functionallyimperative.com

----------------

Book Overflow is a podcast for software engineers, by software engineers dedicated to improving our craft by reading the best technical books in the world. Join Carter Morgan and Nathan Toups as they read and discuss a new technical book each week!

The full book schedule and links to every major podcast player can be found at https://www.bookoverflow.io

In this episode of Book Overflow, Carter and Nathan discuss the first half of Team Topologies by Matthew Skelton and Manuel Pais. Join them as they discuss the four main types of teams, what teams they've worked on in the past, remote work, and more!

-- Books Mentioned in this Episode --

Note: As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

----------------------------------------------------------

Team Topologies by Matthew Skelton and Manuel Pais

https://amzn.to/4kgfH3F (paid link)

----------------

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kj6DLCEWR5nHShlSYJI5L

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/book-overflow/id1745257325

X: https://x.com/bookoverflowpod

Carter on X: https://x.com/cartermorgan

Nathan's Functionally Imperative: www.functionallyimperative.com

----------------

Book Overflow is a podcast for software engineers, by software engineers dedicated to improving our craft by reading the best technical books in the world. Join Carter Morgan and Nathan Toups as they read and discuss a new technical book each week!

The full book schedule and links to every major podcast player can be found at https://www.bookoverflow.io