What changes when you're not building a business to sell, but building one to hand down? That's the question that kept coming up for me in this conversation. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sat down with Jack Watson of HFW Industries, a fourth-generation manufacturer whose family has been operating the same business for nearly 80 years.

Jack's story starts with his great-grandfather in 1947, fresh out of World War II, taking a bet on an emerging technology that would eventually become the foundation of HFW's identity. What struck me wasn't just the history, but how that long lineage still shows up in the way the business is run today, from capital investment decisions to how risk, debt, and growth are viewed through a generational lens.

As someone who runs a business with a very different ownership mindset, I found this conversation especially valuable. We explored how thinking in decades instead of deal cycles changes what numbers matter most. Instead of obsessing over EBITDA multiples or exit value, Jack shared how balance sheet strength, liquidity, employee tenure, and operational durability guide their decisions.

We also talked about leadership, tribal knowledge, and the responsibility that comes with stewarding a business that employs people who may spend their entire careers there. Whether you're in a multi-generation family business or not, there's a lot to learn from how Jack and his family think about building something that lasts.

This episode offers a different perspective on success in manufacturing, one rooted less in transactions and more in continuity, resilience, and long-term stewardship.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) Jack introduces HFW Industries and its four-generation legacy
• (3:05) The origin story: thermal spray technology after World War II
• (5:53) Family involvement across generations and roles in the business
• (7:15) We detail how Factur can generate new opportunities for your business
• (8:22) Family ownership vs founder ownership: different lenses for decisions
• (9:50) Financial conservatism born from early hardship
• (12:33) How long-term thinking shapes capital investment decisions
• (14:23) Real estate ownership and building for generations, not exits
• (18:04) How to ride out downturns like 2008 and COVID with minimal debt
• (21:18) Why you need to meet us at the 2026 IMTS Exhibitor Workshop
• (23:25) The financial metrics that matter most in a family business
• (25:49) Tracking rework, training costs, and generational skill transfer
• (27:46) Bottlenecks, utilization, and strategic use of top talent
• (30:26) Capturing tribal knowledge before experienced employees retire
• (31:36) Documentation, standards, and low-volume high-mix challenges
• (32:47) Leadership structure across generations
• (38:23) Grow your top and bottom-line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (39:00) Decoupling the business from individual family members
• (40:48) Building a pipeline of leaders who act like owners
• (42:32) Employee tenure as a point of pride and competitive advantage
• (44:58) What Jack hopes his great-grandfather would think today

Resources & People Mentioned

• Get a free custom report of opportunities in your industry from facturmfg.com/chips
• Why you need to meet us at the 2026 IMTS Exhibitor Workshop
• Grow your top and bottom-line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)

Connect with Jack Watson

• HFW Industries
• Connect with Jack on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

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Inventory is one of the most overlooked levers in manufacturing finance, yet it is often the single largest asset sitting on a company's balance sheet. In this bonus episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne is joined by inventory accounting experts Erica Parra and Cindy Houser from CLA to unpack why inventory accounting methods deserve far more attention than they typically receive.

Most manufacturers default to FIFO or weighted average simply because that is how their ERP is set up. But in periods of inflation, tariffs, and volatile raw material pricing, that default choice can quietly cost companies hundreds of thousands or even millions in unnecessary tax payments. This conversation pulls inventory out of the "once-a-year count" bucket and reframes it as a strategic financial decision.

Erica and Cindy break down the fundamentals of inventory valuation and identification, then zero in on LIFO as a powerful but often misunderstood tax deferral strategy. They explain why 2025 represents a rare "strike while the iron's hot" opportunity due to elevated inflation and tariff pressure, and why LIFO is truly a use-it-or-lose-it election.

Using a realistic mock case study, the episode walks through how a manufacturer with $50 million in inventory could unlock nearly $2 million in cash tax savings by adopting LIFO in the right year. The discussion also covers how the analysis is done, what data is required, how long companies must stay on LIFO, and why this is not a DIY exercise.

If you think inventory is just what's sitting on the shelf, this episode will change how you see one of the most powerful numbers in your business.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:43) Introducing Erica Parra and Cindy Houser from CLA
• (3:00) The two core decisions in inventory accounting: valuation and identification
• (5:21) FIFO, weighted average, and LIFO explained in practical manufacturing terms
• (7:23) How raw material inflation and tariffs amplify inventory accounting decisions
• (8:38) When FIFO or weighted average may still make sense
• (10:41) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA
• (12:26) Signs that a manufacturer should evaluate LIFO as a tax strategy
• (15:30) The short-term and long-term questions every LIFO analysis must answer
• (17:27) How CLA uses inflation indexes and inventory data to model LIFO benefits
• (20:18) Why LIFO is tax deferral, not tax avoidance
• (21:14) Internal vs external inflation indexes and dollar-value LIFO
• (23:11) What data is required and how invasive the analysis really is
• (24:33) IMTS Exhibitor Workshop: Why planning matters
• (26:41) Mock case study showing nearly $2M in potential tax savings
• (29:47) Required holding period and what happens in deflationary cycles
• (32:06) Why LIFO is not a do-it-yourself calculation
• (34:17) Using tax strategy to offset rising compliance costs
• (38:50) Other major tax strategy changes manufacturers should watch in 2025/2026
• (42:52) How to connect with Erica, Cindy, or Mike to explore an inventory assessment
• (44:58) Use Hire MFG Leaders to hire your next leader

Resources & People Mentioned

• Grow your top and bottom line with CLA
• Register for the 2026 IMTS Exhibitor Workshop
• Use Hire MFG Leaders to hire your next leader

Connect with Cindy Houser and Erica Parra

• Connect with Cindy on LinkedIn
• Connect with Erica on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

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Innovation in manufacturing is often framed as a technology problem. Better machines, faster software, smarter automation. But in this episode of Buy the Numbers, the conversation takes a different turn, one that looks past tools and toward the human systems that actually make innovation stick.

Mike Payne is joined once again by Al Whatmough, CEO of Toolpath, for a wide-ranging discussion on why innovation truly happens at the speed of communication and why trust, relationships, and shared experiences matter more than ever in an AI-driven world. From AI-powered productivity to the limitations of traditional trade shows, Al challenges conventional thinking about how the manufacturing industry learns, connects, and moves forward.

The episode centers on Toolpath's upcoming Machining Summit on the Summit in Mammoth Mountain, an intentionally unconventional event designed to prioritize conversation over sales pitches and relationships over transactions. By removing the usual trade show noise, Al explains how smaller, effort-required gatherings create deeper connections, better idea exchange, and more meaningful outcomes for shop owners and industry leaders.

Along the way, the conversation explores community building, trust in an age of AI, why shared meals and experiences still matter, and how manufacturers can rethink events, partnerships, and collaboration to drive real progress. This episode isn't about hype. It's about the numbers behind innovation, and why people remain the most important variable.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:39) Learn about the Machining Summit on the Summit (and why you should go)
• (7:28) Why you should consider attending the IMTS Exhibitor workshop
• (9:38) How Toolpath builds community and trust beyond the product
• (13:06) Why trust becomes more important as AI capabilities increase
• (14:10) Who the summit is built for and why decision-maker diversity matters
• (17:34) Selecting panelists who prioritize shared knowledge over gatekeeping
• (19:54) Why we love the SMW Autoblok catalog
• (20:35) Balancing shop owners, vendors, and leaders for broader perspective
• (24:18) Who should attend the Machining Summit on the Summit?
• (25:52) Creating access for newer and smaller shops through Fresh Tracks
• (28:04) Why shared experiences, meals, and even plus-ones deepen trust
• (31:17) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA

Resources & People Mentioned

• Register for the Machining Summit on the Summit
• Why you should consider attending the IMTS Exhibitor workshop
• Why we love the SMW Autoblok catalog
• Grow your top and bottom line with CLA

Connect with Al Whatmough

• Toolpath
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

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KPIs can feel like a buzzword—every manufacturer knows they should be tracking them, but few feel confident about where to start or what actually matters. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne sits down once again with Jon Hughes of CLA to unpack the real purpose of KPIs, why they're so misunderstood, and how data-driven decision-making can completely change the way a shop performs.

Mike and Jon dive into the QDISC framework—Quality, Delivery, Inventory, Safety, and Cost—and explore how these five buckets give manufacturers a clear, stable foundation for visibility. But they don't stop at what to track. They go deeper into how to understand the story behind the metrics, how to trend progress over time, and how to set targets that actually mean something for your business and your customers.

Whether it's measuring scrap and rework, calculating utilization, tightening cost control, or maintaining high on-time delivery, the two leaders discuss how the right KPIs help owners move from reactive firefighting to proactive leadership. They also break down the softer side of metrics: employee engagement, customer satisfaction, and the "why" behind the numbers that every team member needs to understand.

Most importantly, Mike and Jon show that KPIs don't have to be complicated. In fact, the power comes from keeping them simple, actionable, relevant, and directly tied to your goals. If you're ready to elevate your operation by measuring what actually matters, this episode gives you the roadmap to get there.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (1:16) Introducing Jon Hughes and why KPIs matter
• (2:34) Why business owners struggle to start tracking KPIs
• (3:51) Learn how to grow your top and bottom line with CLA
• (5:46) How data reduces pressure and improves decision-making
• (7:41) KPIs as a living system that changes with your business
• (8:57) The QDISC framework: Quality, Delivery, Inventory, Safety, Cost
• (10:47) Safety metrics and examples of what to measure
• (12:15) Quality metrics: scrap, rework, escapes, and root-cause analysis
• (14:51) How to set meaningful KPI targets and benchmark well
• (16:55) Benchmarking challenges and looking at your own historical data
• (18:09) Trending metrics using percentages versus absolute values
• (19:44) Using yield and scrap data to price jobs correctly
• (22:48) Delivery and inventory KPIs, including OTD and cycle counting
• (24:26) Cost and capacity KPIs: utilization as a profitability lever
• (25:16) How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery
• (26:15) Mike's simple utilization KPI: billed vs. paid hours
• (30:28) Pricing strategy and understanding capacity
• (31:30) Tracking safety using workers' comp modifier as a high-level metric
• (33:18) Why less is more when selecting KPIs
• (34:32) Financial review vs. weekly KPI review
• (36:26) Integrating KPIs into 13-week cash flow
• (37:39) Digging deeper only when KPIs show leakage
• (40:13) Measuring soft KPIs like customer concerns and employee satisfaction
• (42:48) Using employee surveys and tracking trends over time
• (44:00) KPIs as directional tools for improvement
• (45:12) Teaching employees how their actions affect KPIs
• (47:23) Using KPIs in all-hands meetings and bonus plans
• (49:16) Why we created Hire MFG Leaders (and why you should use it)
• (49:45) Final thoughts, how to connect with Jon, and closing

Resources & People Mentioned

• Learn how to grow your top and bottom line with CLA
• The KPIs to Help Manufacturers Improve Company Performance
• Your 6-Step Guide to Achieving Over 95% On-Time Delivery with Minimal Effort
• Cash Flow Power Moves: Pricing, Terms & Tools That Protect Your Business
• Why we created Hire MFG Leaders (and why you should use it)

Connect with Jon Hughes

• CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

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In this special crossover episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne joins Josh McCain on The Throughput Show for a fully interactive, live conversation about one of the most misunderstood and mission-critical topics in manufacturing: cash flow. Unlike traditional episodes, this one unfolds in real time with audience questions, open dialogue, and the kind of raw, honest examples operators rarely get to hear outside of private masterminds.

Josh kicks off the episode with his hallmark energy and levity—complete with an unexpected "musical" intro for guests Mike, Jon Hughes, and Phil Hanke of CLA—before guiding the conversation into the cash-flow trenches. What follows is an engaging deep dive into the issues manufacturers wrestle with every single day: slow-paying OEMs, inventory pile-ups, quoting mistakes, sneaky cash traps, and how to build the financial visibility that keeps shops alive.

With decades of combined experience across shop ownership, accounting, and advisory, Mike, Jon, and Phil break down the real mechanics of cash flow: how it gets tied up, where it silently leaks, and how small changes in terms, quoting structure, deposits, and vendor relationships can immediately strengthen your financial position. Audience comments throughout the episode add even more depth, with owners openly sharing the challenges they face in today's extended-terms environment.

From negotiating deposits to mastering the 13-week cash-flow model, this episode equips manufacturers with practical, battle-tested tools they can implement right away. Whether you're running a newly launched job shop or a mature precision manufacturer, this live format offers clarity, community, and real-world strategies you won't hear anywhere else.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (2:16) Why you should use Hire MFG Leaders for your next hire
• (2:44) Mike sets the agenda: focusing on cash flow challenges manufacturers overlook
• (3:26) Jon and Phil introduce CLA and their work supporting manufacturers
• (4:40) Overlooked cash-flow issues and common pitfalls
• (8:10) Real shop example: obsolete inventory discovered during due diligence
• (9:36) Using deposits and up-front payments to improve the cash cycle
• (10:02) Why negotiating terms with OEMs is difficult and what shops can control
• (11:42) Pricing NREs, tooling, and upfront costs correctly
• (12:29) The accounts-payable side: terms, discounts, and preventative maintenance
• (13:14) Audience discussion: asking customers to cover material or provide it
• (15:02) How payment terms redefine what an "ideal customer" looks like
• (16:13) Customer grading: A/B/C/D system for evaluating cash-flow impact
• (19:08) Invoice terms, timing, early-payment discounts and hidden costs
• (20:34) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (21:09) Challenges with customers paying late or using credit cards
• (23:35) Audience question: when does factoring make sense?
• (25:29) Breaking down the 2%/10 Net 30 math and annualized cost
• (27:24) Story of a shop whose discount habits destroyed their cash cycle
• (30:30) Question on balancing discounts with cash availability
• (32:25) "Accounts Payable Olympics": gold, silver, and bronze strategies
• (38:10) Importance of accurate invoicing, paperwork, and timely receiving
• (39:51) The 13-week cash-flow tool: How to forecast receivables, payables, payroll, and fixed expenses
• (42:04) Achieve effective workholding with SMW Autoblok
• (44:05) Using the model for long-term CapEx and tax-payment planning
• (46:11) Real example: a $500k swing discovered through variance tracking
• (47:19) Why shop owners must personally review cash-flow forecasting weekly
• (49:00) Mike's closing message: cash flow is the lifeblood of every shop (50:37) Final thanks and episode wrap-up

Resources & People Mentioned

• Connect with Josh McKain
• Connect with Phil Hanke
• Connect with Jon Hughes
• Why you should use Hire MFG Leaders for your next hire
• Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Achieve effective workholding with SMW Autoblok

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

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When Section 179 and bonus depreciation come back into play, it's easy to get swept up in the excitement of "saving on taxes." Every year around this time, I start hearing from shop owners who are ready to buy a new machine before the end of Q4—sometimes for the right reasons, but often for the wrong ones. Don't get me wrong, I love a good deduction as much as anyone. But if you wouldn't buy that equipment without the tax break, you probably shouldn't buy it because of it.

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with my good friend Ty Willis from Verdant Commercial Capital to talk about how to make smarter, data-driven decisions when it comes to equipment purchases. Ty shares a powerful analysis tool that helps manufacturers look beyond tax savings to understand true ROI—factoring in cash flow, breakeven points, and strategic timing. Together, we dig into what it really means to make a strategic equipment investment instead of an emotional one.

We also talk about what we're seeing in the market after attending AMT's MTForecast. While 2025 hasn't lived up to some expectations, all signs point to a strong rebound in 2026. That makes this the perfect time to evaluate your CapEx plans, your lending relationships, and your readiness for growth. Ty and I explore how financing can be an influencer, not the decision itself—and why the best purchases are made in alignment with your customers, not just your accountant.

If you've ever felt the year-end pressure to spend before you think, this conversation will help you pause, run the numbers, and invest with confidence.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (1:17) Welcome to Buy the Numbers — Mike and Ty catch up and set the stage
• (1:40) Why manufacturers love Section 179—and why it shouldn't drive your buying decision
• (2:19) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (2:58) Ty's equipment purchasing analysis tool and how it partners with firms like CLA
• (6:15) MTForecast recap: What 2025 taught us and what 2026 could bring
• (7:43) "Finance is an influencer, not the decision": Understanding your customer's demand before you buy
• (9:33) Pent-up demand and why Q1 2026 could be explosive for U.S. manufacturing
• (11:11) Banking relationships vs. alternative lending—why both matter
• (16:34) Verdant Commercial Capital's tailored approach to manufacturing finance
• (17:13) Structuring financing: loan-to-value and including setup, tooling, and rigging costs
• (19:50) Real numbers: Comparing cash flow impact between bank vs. Verdant financing
• (21:55) The Verdant application and approval process—approvals in 24–48 hours
• (24:57) Financing for cash-based businesses—building credit history the smart way
• (28:24) Setting good financial habits early to be "finance ready" when opportunity strikes
• (30:46) Beyond equipment: Verdant's acquisition by Axos and expanded capabilities
• (33:43) How to follow Ty for updates on new financial services
• (37:07) How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery

Resources & People Mentioned

• Verdant Commercial Capital's tailored approach to manufacturing finance
• Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery

Connect with Ty Willis

• Connect on LinkedIn
• Verdant Commercial Capital

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

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When tariffs, trade policy, and cash flow collide, manufacturers are forced to think creatively—or risk being crushed by uncertainty. That's exactly where Mary Buchzeiger, CEO of Lucerne International and Lucerne Global Solutions, found herself. With skyrocketing tariffs on imported automotive components, Mary realized the solution wasn't to absorb the hit—it was to rewrite the playbook altogether.

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, we dig into how Mary leveraged a little-known financial and logistical strategy: the Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ). By turning Lucerne's Michigan facility into an FTZ, she found a way to defer duties, optimize cash flow, and even open up an entirely new revenue stream helping other companies do the same. The result? Over $5 million in freed-up working capital on a single program—and more than $500,000 in annual interest savings.

Mary walks us through the process of becoming an FTZ, the operational realities, and how manufacturers of all sizes can take advantage of it. From understanding customs audits to calculating real-world ROI, she breaks down the numbers in a way every manufacturing leader can understand.

This episode is part strategy, part inspiration—and all about how smart, scrappy thinking can turn financial chaos into competitive advantage.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) Mary's philosophy: "Where there's chaos, there's opportunity"
• (0:54) Mary Buchzeiger's background that led to founding Lucerne International
• (3:04) Taking Lucerne global and learning through cycles of automotive highs and lows
• (4:24) How tariffs pushed her to explore creative cash-flow solutions
• (6:19) Why Verdant Commercial Capital is a true partner in your corner
• (6:50) Understanding what a Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ) is (and how Lucern got it)
• (6:10) How Lucerne became an FTZ and deferred millions in tariffs
• (9:42) The financial impact: $5 million in freed-up working capital and interest savings
• (11:52) Turning FTZ operations into a new business opportunity
• (12:31) How the certification process works — from audit to activation
• (15:45) Hidden savings: merchandise processing fees and weekly entry summaries
• (17:46) How Lucerne now helps other manufacturers with warehousing and FTZ setup
• (20:57) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (21:35) Which companies benefit most: importers with long payment cycles
• (24:14) Lucerne's new FTZ savings calculator for manufacturers
• (26:08) The difference between FTZs, bonded warehouses, and free trade zones
• (29:14) Other ways FTZs can significantly positively impact your business
• (30:47) The importance of creative, adaptable thinking in manufacturing
• (36:35) Small financial adjustments that create massive long-term value
• (39:26) Check out the SMW Autoblok catalog

Resources & People Mentioned

• Why Verdant Commercial Capital is a true partner in your corner
• Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Check out the SMW Autoblok catalog
• Building the Entrepreneurial Mindset

Connect with Mary Buchzeiger

• Lucerne International
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

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In this episode of Buy the Numbers, host Mike Payne sits down with continuous improvement coach and Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt Brian Karp to dig into the metrics that matter most for manufacturing leaders. Together, they explore how data can be used not just to measure performance, but to transform culture, drive engagement, and spark meaningful improvement across every department.

For more than a decade, Brian has helped manufacturers simplify their approach to measurement—turning overwhelming spreadsheets and endless KPIs into tools that actually guide better decisions. He and Mike talk about where to start when you don't have a dashboard, how to align KPIs with what customers truly care about, and how to avoid "analysis paralysis" when trying to improve processes.

Throughout the conversation, they uncover the real purpose of data collection: empowering teams to learn, not to punish. From establishing baseline metrics to tackling the "yeah, buts" that derail progress, Brian breaks down how to build a measurement mindset rooted in curiosity and continuous improvement.

Mike also shares firsthand how his own team at Hill Manufacturing worked with Brian to align their KPIs, trust their systems, and use imperfect data to make better business decisions. It's a conversation that bridges the gap between engineering precision and human behavior—showing that the key to success isn't just tracking numbers, but understanding the story behind them.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:49) Brian Karp's background in manufacturing and continuous improvement
• (2:00) How Mike met Brian through local grant programs and Lean training
• (3:12) The importance of connecting KPIs to business goals
• (4:03) Where to start when you have no KPIs—beginning with quality, delivery, and cost
• (6:13) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (8:25) Defining metrics that actually reveal performance problems
• (9:41) Keeping measurement simple—tracking exceptions instead of every instance
• (10:55) The myth of perfect data (and why "better" beats "perfect" every time)
• (12:20) Getting buy-in for change: why people resist and how to bring them along
• (19:32) Avoiding the "yeah, buts" that derail progress
• (20:32) Measuring even variable processes: everything can be counted
• (21:55) Check out SMW Autoblok's catalog to leverage RASRAM
• (22:50) Drilling deeper into job costing and profitability analysis
• (24:19) Benchmarking data against real performance, not assumptions
• (28:31) The danger of changing definitions (consistency matters)
• (31:04) Bringing KPIs to the shop floor—making performance visible and celebrated
• (33:53) Manufacturers: Make sure your voice is heard
• (41:38) Using customer scorecards to define internal KPIs
• (43:58) Why continuous improvement never ends—and why that's a good thing
• (47:46) Using benchmarking tools like Top Shops to gauge industry performance
• (49:00) How Hill Manufacturing has evolved its KPI culture over eight years
• (50:28) Hill's next challenge: driving toward zero defects
• (54:08) Why you need to meet us at MTForecast

Resources & People Mentioned

• Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Check out SMW Autoblok's catalog to leverage RASRAM
• Why you need to meet us at MTForecast

Connect with Brian Karp

• CI Solutions
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

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In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Roger Atkins, President of the National Tooling and Machining Association (NTMA), to talk about the real state of U.S. manufacturing as we close out 2025. Representing more than 1,000 small and medium manufacturers nationwide, Roger brings a boots-on-the-ground perspective to the headwinds, opportunities, and trends shaping the industry right now.

The conversation goes well beyond statistics to explore the forces behind them. Roger shares his preview of the MTForecast conference and NTMA's ENGAGE event, pulling back the curtain on survey data straight from job shops across America. From tariffs to labor shortages, election-year uncertainty to international trade shifts, he outlines what's truly affecting shops and where he sees signs of stability.

We also dig into the "new math" of manufacturing leadership — the push to do more with the same workforce, invest in automation and workholding instead of just machines, and partner with builders and integrators to drive productivity. Roger explains why this collaboration between equipment makers and shops is more critical than ever.

Finally, we focus on one of Roger's favorite topics: benchmarking. He shares a powerful story about how one shop used benchmarking against itself to command a premium sale price, underscoring why every shop owner should measure not just against the competition, but also against their own past performance.

This episode is a blueprint for owners, operators, and leaders who want to thrive despite uncertainty—and who believe small manufacturers make the world go round.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (1:00) Introducing Roger Atkins and the NTMA's 1,000-member nationwide network
• (1:50) Previewing NTMA ENGAGE 2025 and MTForecast 2025
• (3:57) Expectations vs. reality in 2025: Flat performance and sector-by-sector differences
• (5:32) Get 20% off your MTForecast registration with code MAK20
• (6:47) Mike's oil and gas perspective—slow and steady
• (8:32) Why no shop can depend on one industry anymore
• (10:22) Tariffs, international pressures, and how uncertainty delays investment decisions
• (11:28) Why "just make a decision" is Roger's message to legislators
• (13:00) Why small manufacturers navigate uncertainty better than anyone
• (16:20) Forecasting equipment purchases: Bigger interest in workholding and automation
• (17:22) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (18:00) Why MTForecast is where builders and users come together to collaborate
• (19:22) Doing more with the same workforce: automation, quick-change workholding, and better tooling
• (22:23) Benchmarking: why every shop should start by measuring against itself
• (24:40) Benchmarking surveys as a top NTMA member benefit (and a sign of top-shop discipline)
• (28:14) Roger's call to action: Business as usual no longer works
• (29:11) This is not your grandfather's industry—adapt, invest, and collaborate
• (31:00) Paul's Top Shops 2025 invitation and MAK20 discount code

Resources & People Mentioned

• See us at NTMA ENGAGE 2025 in Detroit (7th-10th of October) AND MTForecast 2025
• Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Get 20% off your Top Shops registration with code MAK20

Connect with Roger Atkins

• Connect on LinkedIn
• NTMA
• MTForecast

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

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When you're buying a machine shop for the first time, it's easy to feel like you're lost in the dark. I've been through more than 150 transactions in my career, but I still remember what it was like sitting across from my first seller—wondering if I was asking the right questions or if I was missing something important. That's why I love conversations like this one.

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Jeff Lee, Operations Manager at Hayer Engineering in Singapore. Jeff reached out after listening to some of our episodes on acquisitions, and the quality of his questions made me realize they weren't just for him—these are the same questions countless first-time buyers wrestle with but rarely get answered.

Jeff shares his story of joining his family's 30-year-old oil & gas machining business, beginning the search for potential acquisitions in the region, and running into the roadblocks that every buyer faces: how to evaluate opportunities, when to buy assets versus equity, and what really happens when you integrate a new shop.

As we work through his list, I pull from my own playbook—what I look for in a shop, how I handle customer concentration, and why 'people' issues almost always end up being the biggest surprises. Whether you're on your first acquisition or your fiftieth, I think you'll find this conversation valuable, practical, and maybe even a little reassuring.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in…

• (0:43) Jeff Lee's background and path to Hayer Engineering
• (3:00) Why pursuing deals can feel lonely and stressful
• (5:13) The characteristics I look for in a shop
• (7:47) Verdant Commercial Capital makes the process smooth & easy
• (8:25) What my acquisition strategy looks like: diversification and capabilities
• (11:08) Asset vs. equity deals and what transfers
• (14:13) Handling customer concentration risks
• (16:00) Declining revenue: neglect or market forces?
• (19:25) CapEx spending and owner age as indicators
• (21:18) Implementing a tech stack post-acquisition
• (23:53) Level up your workholding with SMW Autoblok
• (24:34) Onboarding employees and infrastructure quickly
• (27:01) Centralization vs. decentralization decisions
• (30:17) Managing customer relationships across shops
• (31:23) How people issues as the biggest surprises
• (33:58) Valuation approach and doubling value
• (39:54) Leveraging your strengths in due diligence
• (43:49) The future of machining: consolidation and automation
• (49:51) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA

Resources & People Mentioned

• Episode #24: Demystifying the Buying and Selling of Machine Shops
• Episode #80: How to 4x Your Money with Machine Shops
• Verdant Commercial Capital makes the process smooth & easy
• ProShop ERP
• Datanomix
• Level up your workholding with SMW Autoblok
• Grow your top and bottom line with CLA

Connect with Jeff Lee

• Hayer Engineering
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

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Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK