KPIs can feel like a buzzword—every manufacturer knows they should be tracking them, but few feel confident about where to start or what actually matters. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne sits down once again with Jon Hughes of CLA to unpack the real purpose of KPIs, why they're so misunderstood, and how data-driven decision-making can completely change the way a shop performs.

Mike and Jon dive into the QDISC framework—Quality, Delivery, Inventory, Safety, and Cost—and explore how these five buckets give manufacturers a clear, stable foundation for visibility. But they don't stop at what to track. They go deeper into how to understand the story behind the metrics, how to trend progress over time, and how to set targets that actually mean something for your business and your customers.

Whether it's measuring scrap and rework, calculating utilization, tightening cost control, or maintaining high on-time delivery, the two leaders discuss how the right KPIs help owners move from reactive firefighting to proactive leadership. They also break down the softer side of metrics: employee engagement, customer satisfaction, and the "why" behind the numbers that every team member needs to understand.

Most importantly, Mike and Jon show that KPIs don't have to be complicated. In fact, the power comes from keeping them simple, actionable, relevant, and directly tied to your goals. If you're ready to elevate your operation by measuring what actually matters, this episode gives you the roadmap to get there.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (1:16) Introducing Jon Hughes and why KPIs matter
• (2:34) Why business owners struggle to start tracking KPIs
• (3:51) Learn how to grow your top and bottom line with CLA
• (5:46) How data reduces pressure and improves decision-making
• (7:41) KPIs as a living system that changes with your business
• (8:57) The QDISC framework: Quality, Delivery, Inventory, Safety, Cost
• (10:47) Safety metrics and examples of what to measure
• (12:15) Quality metrics: scrap, rework, escapes, and root-cause analysis
• (14:51) How to set meaningful KPI targets and benchmark well
• (16:55) Benchmarking challenges and looking at your own historical data
• (18:09) Trending metrics using percentages versus absolute values
• (19:44) Using yield and scrap data to price jobs correctly
• (22:48) Delivery and inventory KPIs, including OTD and cycle counting
• (24:26) Cost and capacity KPIs: utilization as a profitability lever
• (25:16) How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery
• (26:15) Mike's simple utilization KPI: billed vs. paid hours
• (30:28) Pricing strategy and understanding capacity
• (31:30) Tracking safety using workers' comp modifier as a high-level metric
• (33:18) Why less is more when selecting KPIs
• (34:32) Financial review vs. weekly KPI review
• (36:26) Integrating KPIs into 13-week cash flow
• (37:39) Digging deeper only when KPIs show leakage
• (40:13) Measuring soft KPIs like customer concerns and employee satisfaction
• (42:48) Using employee surveys and tracking trends over time
• (44:00) KPIs as directional tools for improvement
• (45:12) Teaching employees how their actions affect KPIs
• (47:23) Using KPIs in all-hands meetings and bonus plans
• (49:16) Why we created Hire MFG Leaders (and why you should use it)
• (49:45) Final thoughts, how to connect with Jon, and closing

Resources & People Mentioned

• Learn how to grow your top and bottom line with CLA
• The KPIs to Help Manufacturers Improve Company Performance
• Your 6-Step Guide to Achieving Over 95% On-Time Delivery with Minimal Effort
• Cash Flow Power Moves: Pricing, Terms & Tools That Protect Your Business
• Why we created Hire MFG Leaders (and why you should use it)

Connect with Jon Hughes

• CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

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In this special crossover episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne joins Josh McCain on The Throughput Show for a fully interactive, live conversation about one of the most misunderstood and mission-critical topics in manufacturing: cash flow. Unlike traditional episodes, this one unfolds in real time with audience questions, open dialogue, and the kind of raw, honest examples operators rarely get to hear outside of private masterminds.

Josh kicks off the episode with his hallmark energy and levity—complete with an unexpected "musical" intro for guests Mike, Jon Hughes, and Phil Hanke of CLA—before guiding the conversation into the cash-flow trenches. What follows is an engaging deep dive into the issues manufacturers wrestle with every single day: slow-paying OEMs, inventory pile-ups, quoting mistakes, sneaky cash traps, and how to build the financial visibility that keeps shops alive.

With decades of combined experience across shop ownership, accounting, and advisory, Mike, Jon, and Phil break down the real mechanics of cash flow: how it gets tied up, where it silently leaks, and how small changes in terms, quoting structure, deposits, and vendor relationships can immediately strengthen your financial position. Audience comments throughout the episode add even more depth, with owners openly sharing the challenges they face in today's extended-terms environment.

From negotiating deposits to mastering the 13-week cash-flow model, this episode equips manufacturers with practical, battle-tested tools they can implement right away. Whether you're running a newly launched job shop or a mature precision manufacturer, this live format offers clarity, community, and real-world strategies you won't hear anywhere else.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (2:16) Why you should use Hire MFG Leaders for your next hire
• (2:44) Mike sets the agenda: focusing on cash flow challenges manufacturers overlook
• (3:26) Jon and Phil introduce CLA and their work supporting manufacturers
• (4:40) Overlooked cash-flow issues and common pitfalls
• (8:10) Real shop example: obsolete inventory discovered during due diligence
• (9:36) Using deposits and up-front payments to improve the cash cycle
• (10:02) Why negotiating terms with OEMs is difficult and what shops can control
• (11:42) Pricing NREs, tooling, and upfront costs correctly
• (12:29) The accounts-payable side: terms, discounts, and preventative maintenance
• (13:14) Audience discussion: asking customers to cover material or provide it
• (15:02) How payment terms redefine what an "ideal customer" looks like
• (16:13) Customer grading: A/B/C/D system for evaluating cash-flow impact
• (19:08) Invoice terms, timing, early-payment discounts and hidden costs
• (20:34) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (21:09) Challenges with customers paying late or using credit cards
• (23:35) Audience question: when does factoring make sense?
• (25:29) Breaking down the 2%/10 Net 30 math and annualized cost
• (27:24) Story of a shop whose discount habits destroyed their cash cycle
• (30:30) Question on balancing discounts with cash availability
• (32:25) "Accounts Payable Olympics": gold, silver, and bronze strategies
• (38:10) Importance of accurate invoicing, paperwork, and timely receiving
• (39:51) The 13-week cash-flow tool: How to forecast receivables, payables, payroll, and fixed expenses
• (42:04) Achieve effective workholding with SMW Autoblok
• (44:05) Using the model for long-term CapEx and tax-payment planning
• (46:11) Real example: a $500k swing discovered through variance tracking
• (47:19) Why shop owners must personally review cash-flow forecasting weekly
• (49:00) Mike's closing message: cash flow is the lifeblood of every shop (50:37) Final thanks and episode wrap-up

Resources & People Mentioned

• Connect with Josh McKain
• Connect with Phil Hanke
• Connect with Jon Hughes
• Why you should use Hire MFG Leaders for your next hire
• Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Achieve effective workholding with SMW Autoblok

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

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When Section 179 and bonus depreciation come back into play, it's easy to get swept up in the excitement of "saving on taxes." Every year around this time, I start hearing from shop owners who are ready to buy a new machine before the end of Q4—sometimes for the right reasons, but often for the wrong ones. Don't get me wrong, I love a good deduction as much as anyone. But if you wouldn't buy that equipment without the tax break, you probably shouldn't buy it because of it.

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with my good friend Ty Willis from Verdant Commercial Capital to talk about how to make smarter, data-driven decisions when it comes to equipment purchases. Ty shares a powerful analysis tool that helps manufacturers look beyond tax savings to understand true ROI—factoring in cash flow, breakeven points, and strategic timing. Together, we dig into what it really means to make a strategic equipment investment instead of an emotional one.

We also talk about what we're seeing in the market after attending AMT's MTForecast. While 2025 hasn't lived up to some expectations, all signs point to a strong rebound in 2026. That makes this the perfect time to evaluate your CapEx plans, your lending relationships, and your readiness for growth. Ty and I explore how financing can be an influencer, not the decision itself—and why the best purchases are made in alignment with your customers, not just your accountant.

If you've ever felt the year-end pressure to spend before you think, this conversation will help you pause, run the numbers, and invest with confidence.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (1:17) Welcome to Buy the Numbers — Mike and Ty catch up and set the stage
• (1:40) Why manufacturers love Section 179—and why it shouldn't drive your buying decision
• (2:19) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (2:58) Ty's equipment purchasing analysis tool and how it partners with firms like CLA
• (6:15) MTForecast recap: What 2025 taught us and what 2026 could bring
• (7:43) "Finance is an influencer, not the decision": Understanding your customer's demand before you buy
• (9:33) Pent-up demand and why Q1 2026 could be explosive for U.S. manufacturing
• (11:11) Banking relationships vs. alternative lending—why both matter
• (16:34) Verdant Commercial Capital's tailored approach to manufacturing finance
• (17:13) Structuring financing: loan-to-value and including setup, tooling, and rigging costs
• (19:50) Real numbers: Comparing cash flow impact between bank vs. Verdant financing
• (21:55) The Verdant application and approval process—approvals in 24–48 hours
• (24:57) Financing for cash-based businesses—building credit history the smart way
• (28:24) Setting good financial habits early to be "finance ready" when opportunity strikes
• (30:46) Beyond equipment: Verdant's acquisition by Axos and expanded capabilities
• (33:43) How to follow Ty for updates on new financial services
• (37:07) How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery

Resources & People Mentioned

• Verdant Commercial Capital's tailored approach to manufacturing finance
• Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery

Connect with Ty Willis

• Connect on LinkedIn
• Verdant Commercial Capital

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

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When tariffs, trade policy, and cash flow collide, manufacturers are forced to think creatively—or risk being crushed by uncertainty. That's exactly where Mary Buchzeiger, CEO of Lucerne International and Lucerne Global Solutions, found herself. With skyrocketing tariffs on imported automotive components, Mary realized the solution wasn't to absorb the hit—it was to rewrite the playbook altogether.

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, we dig into how Mary leveraged a little-known financial and logistical strategy: the Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ). By turning Lucerne's Michigan facility into an FTZ, she found a way to defer duties, optimize cash flow, and even open up an entirely new revenue stream helping other companies do the same. The result? Over $5 million in freed-up working capital on a single program—and more than $500,000 in annual interest savings.

Mary walks us through the process of becoming an FTZ, the operational realities, and how manufacturers of all sizes can take advantage of it. From understanding customs audits to calculating real-world ROI, she breaks down the numbers in a way every manufacturing leader can understand.

This episode is part strategy, part inspiration—and all about how smart, scrappy thinking can turn financial chaos into competitive advantage.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) Mary's philosophy: "Where there's chaos, there's opportunity"
• (0:54) Mary Buchzeiger's background that led to founding Lucerne International
• (3:04) Taking Lucerne global and learning through cycles of automotive highs and lows
• (4:24) How tariffs pushed her to explore creative cash-flow solutions
• (6:19) Why Verdant Commercial Capital is a true partner in your corner
• (6:50) Understanding what a Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ) is (and how Lucern got it)
• (6:10) How Lucerne became an FTZ and deferred millions in tariffs
• (9:42) The financial impact: $5 million in freed-up working capital and interest savings
• (11:52) Turning FTZ operations into a new business opportunity
• (12:31) How the certification process works — from audit to activation
• (15:45) Hidden savings: merchandise processing fees and weekly entry summaries
• (17:46) How Lucerne now helps other manufacturers with warehousing and FTZ setup
• (20:57) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (21:35) Which companies benefit most: importers with long payment cycles
• (24:14) Lucerne's new FTZ savings calculator for manufacturers
• (26:08) The difference between FTZs, bonded warehouses, and free trade zones
• (29:14) Other ways FTZs can significantly positively impact your business
• (30:47) The importance of creative, adaptable thinking in manufacturing
• (36:35) Small financial adjustments that create massive long-term value
• (39:26) Check out the SMW Autoblok catalog

Resources & People Mentioned

• Why Verdant Commercial Capital is a true partner in your corner
• Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Check out the SMW Autoblok catalog
• Building the Entrepreneurial Mindset

Connect with Mary Buchzeiger

• Lucerne International
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, host Mike Payne sits down with continuous improvement coach and Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt Brian Karp to dig into the metrics that matter most for manufacturing leaders. Together, they explore how data can be used not just to measure performance, but to transform culture, drive engagement, and spark meaningful improvement across every department.

For more than a decade, Brian has helped manufacturers simplify their approach to measurement—turning overwhelming spreadsheets and endless KPIs into tools that actually guide better decisions. He and Mike talk about where to start when you don't have a dashboard, how to align KPIs with what customers truly care about, and how to avoid "analysis paralysis" when trying to improve processes.

Throughout the conversation, they uncover the real purpose of data collection: empowering teams to learn, not to punish. From establishing baseline metrics to tackling the "yeah, buts" that derail progress, Brian breaks down how to build a measurement mindset rooted in curiosity and continuous improvement.

Mike also shares firsthand how his own team at Hill Manufacturing worked with Brian to align their KPIs, trust their systems, and use imperfect data to make better business decisions. It's a conversation that bridges the gap between engineering precision and human behavior—showing that the key to success isn't just tracking numbers, but understanding the story behind them.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:49) Brian Karp's background in manufacturing and continuous improvement
• (2:00) How Mike met Brian through local grant programs and Lean training
• (3:12) The importance of connecting KPIs to business goals
• (4:03) Where to start when you have no KPIs—beginning with quality, delivery, and cost
• (6:13) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (8:25) Defining metrics that actually reveal performance problems
• (9:41) Keeping measurement simple—tracking exceptions instead of every instance
• (10:55) The myth of perfect data (and why "better" beats "perfect" every time)
• (12:20) Getting buy-in for change: why people resist and how to bring them along
• (19:32) Avoiding the "yeah, buts" that derail progress
• (20:32) Measuring even variable processes: everything can be counted
• (21:55) Check out SMW Autoblok's catalog to leverage RASRAM
• (22:50) Drilling deeper into job costing and profitability analysis
• (24:19) Benchmarking data against real performance, not assumptions
• (28:31) The danger of changing definitions (consistency matters)
• (31:04) Bringing KPIs to the shop floor—making performance visible and celebrated
• (33:53) Manufacturers: Make sure your voice is heard
• (41:38) Using customer scorecards to define internal KPIs
• (43:58) Why continuous improvement never ends—and why that's a good thing
• (47:46) Using benchmarking tools like Top Shops to gauge industry performance
• (49:00) How Hill Manufacturing has evolved its KPI culture over eight years
• (50:28) Hill's next challenge: driving toward zero defects
• (54:08) Why you need to meet us at MTForecast

Resources & People Mentioned

• Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Check out SMW Autoblok's catalog to leverage RASRAM
• Why you need to meet us at MTForecast

Connect with Brian Karp

• CI Solutions
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

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In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Roger Atkins, President of the National Tooling and Machining Association (NTMA), to talk about the real state of U.S. manufacturing as we close out 2025. Representing more than 1,000 small and medium manufacturers nationwide, Roger brings a boots-on-the-ground perspective to the headwinds, opportunities, and trends shaping the industry right now.

The conversation goes well beyond statistics to explore the forces behind them. Roger shares his preview of the MTForecast conference and NTMA's ENGAGE event, pulling back the curtain on survey data straight from job shops across America. From tariffs to labor shortages, election-year uncertainty to international trade shifts, he outlines what's truly affecting shops and where he sees signs of stability.

We also dig into the "new math" of manufacturing leadership — the push to do more with the same workforce, invest in automation and workholding instead of just machines, and partner with builders and integrators to drive productivity. Roger explains why this collaboration between equipment makers and shops is more critical than ever.

Finally, we focus on one of Roger's favorite topics: benchmarking. He shares a powerful story about how one shop used benchmarking against itself to command a premium sale price, underscoring why every shop owner should measure not just against the competition, but also against their own past performance.

This episode is a blueprint for owners, operators, and leaders who want to thrive despite uncertainty—and who believe small manufacturers make the world go round.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (1:00) Introducing Roger Atkins and the NTMA's 1,000-member nationwide network
• (1:50) Previewing NTMA ENGAGE 2025 and MTForecast 2025
• (3:57) Expectations vs. reality in 2025: Flat performance and sector-by-sector differences
• (5:32) Get 20% off your MTForecast registration with code MAK20
• (6:47) Mike's oil and gas perspective—slow and steady
• (8:32) Why no shop can depend on one industry anymore
• (10:22) Tariffs, international pressures, and how uncertainty delays investment decisions
• (11:28) Why "just make a decision" is Roger's message to legislators
• (13:00) Why small manufacturers navigate uncertainty better than anyone
• (16:20) Forecasting equipment purchases: Bigger interest in workholding and automation
• (17:22) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• (18:00) Why MTForecast is where builders and users come together to collaborate
• (19:22) Doing more with the same workforce: automation, quick-change workholding, and better tooling
• (22:23) Benchmarking: why every shop should start by measuring against itself
• (24:40) Benchmarking surveys as a top NTMA member benefit (and a sign of top-shop discipline)
• (28:14) Roger's call to action: Business as usual no longer works
• (29:11) This is not your grandfather's industry—adapt, invest, and collaborate
• (31:00) Paul's Top Shops 2025 invitation and MAK20 discount code

Resources & People Mentioned

• See us at NTMA ENGAGE 2025 in Detroit (7th-10th of October) AND MTForecast 2025
• Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Get 20% off your Top Shops registration with code MAK20

Connect with Roger Atkins

• Connect on LinkedIn
• NTMA
• MTForecast

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

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When you're buying a machine shop for the first time, it's easy to feel like you're lost in the dark. I've been through more than 150 transactions in my career, but I still remember what it was like sitting across from my first seller—wondering if I was asking the right questions or if I was missing something important. That's why I love conversations like this one.

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Jeff Lee, Operations Manager at Hayer Engineering in Singapore. Jeff reached out after listening to some of our episodes on acquisitions, and the quality of his questions made me realize they weren't just for him—these are the same questions countless first-time buyers wrestle with but rarely get answered.

Jeff shares his story of joining his family's 30-year-old oil & gas machining business, beginning the search for potential acquisitions in the region, and running into the roadblocks that every buyer faces: how to evaluate opportunities, when to buy assets versus equity, and what really happens when you integrate a new shop.

As we work through his list, I pull from my own playbook—what I look for in a shop, how I handle customer concentration, and why 'people' issues almost always end up being the biggest surprises. Whether you're on your first acquisition or your fiftieth, I think you'll find this conversation valuable, practical, and maybe even a little reassuring.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in…

• (0:43) Jeff Lee's background and path to Hayer Engineering
• (3:00) Why pursuing deals can feel lonely and stressful
• (5:13) The characteristics I look for in a shop
• (7:47) Verdant Commercial Capital makes the process smooth & easy
• (8:25) What my acquisition strategy looks like: diversification and capabilities
• (11:08) Asset vs. equity deals and what transfers
• (14:13) Handling customer concentration risks
• (16:00) Declining revenue: neglect or market forces?
• (19:25) CapEx spending and owner age as indicators
• (21:18) Implementing a tech stack post-acquisition
• (23:53) Level up your workholding with SMW Autoblok
• (24:34) Onboarding employees and infrastructure quickly
• (27:01) Centralization vs. decentralization decisions
• (30:17) Managing customer relationships across shops
• (31:23) How people issues as the biggest surprises
• (33:58) Valuation approach and doubling value
• (39:54) Leveraging your strengths in due diligence
• (43:49) The future of machining: consolidation and automation
• (49:51) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA

Resources & People Mentioned

• Episode #24: Demystifying the Buying and Selling of Machine Shops
• Episode #80: How to 4x Your Money with Machine Shops
• Verdant Commercial Capital makes the process smooth & easy
• ProShop ERP
• Datanomix
• Level up your workholding with SMW Autoblok
• Grow your top and bottom line with CLA

Connect with Jeff Lee

• Hayer Engineering
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

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In this episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne sits down with Dave Necessary, Executive Vice President of Products and Markets at Gardner Business Media, to dig into the power of benchmarking and the Top Shops program. For more than a decade, Top Shops has been the definitive survey that shows manufacturers where they stand—highlighting the practices, strategies, and investments that consistently separate the best from everyone else.

Dave shares how the survey functions like a business health check-up, providing both an industry-wide benchmarking standards report and a personalized scorecard for participating shops. From capital investment and automation strategies to marketing, HR practices, and efficiency metrics, Top Shops reveals the numbers that matter most to shop owners serious about growth.

Mike reflects on his own journey—how filling out that survey after acquiring his first shop in 2018 shaped a five-year plan to transform into a Top Shop. Along the way, he and Dave connect the dots between numbers like revenue per employee, profit margin, and capacity utilization, and the strategies that drive them upward.

Whether you're buying, selling, or scaling a manufacturing business, this conversation underscores why understanding and acting on benchmarking data isn't optional—it's essential. And with the upcoming Top Shops Conference in Charlotte this November, you'll discover why being part of this community can accelerate your shop's success.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:14) Register for Top Shops and meet us in Charlotte, NC!
• (1:38) Learn about today's guest, Dave Necessary
• (3:34) Hill Manufacturing's experience with the Top Shops benchmarking report
• (6:27) How the survey works, personalized reports, and five key differentiators
• (12:02) Why benchmarking matters for any shop size and metrics that drive performance
• (15:03) Automation and efficiency: horizontals, pallet changers, robots, ERP/MES, lights-out
• (17:34) Using Top Shops metrics in acquisitions, valuations, and profitability decisions
• (22:25) HR and marketing differentiators: cross-training, leadership, recruiting, video marketing
• (27:50) Adding customer value with turnkey services and expanded capabilities
• (28:46) Why you need to check out the SMW Autoblok catalogue
• (30:58) Strategic investments: automation upgrades, workholding, and optimizing older machines
• (39:55) Why you need to embrace the continuous improvement mindset
• (43:39) Survey timeline, reporting process, and the upcoming Top Shops Conference
• (46:20) What makes the event unique: peer learning, panels, networking, and fun
• (49:20) Accessing the Benchmarking Standards Report and Dave's special offer
• (52:19) Grow your top and bottom-line with CLA

Resources & People Mentioned

• Register for Top Shops 2025 and meet us in Charlotte, NC!
• Why you need to check out the SMW Autoblok catalogue
• Contact Dave at [email protected] to get the Benchmarking Standards Report
• Grow your top and bottom-line with CLA

Connect with Dave Necessary

• Connect on LinkedIn
• [email protected]

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

Selling a business is rarely just about the numbers—and in this episode of Buy the Numbers, we explore why. Recorded at the CLA Connect Center in Minnesota, Mike Payne and guest co-host Erin Mickels sit down with two sets of owners who have recently gone through the process of selling their companies. From fielding unsolicited offers to choosing between 26 potential buyers, their stories highlight the strategic, emotional, and deeply personal factors that shape a sale.

Joel Bauer of Midsota Manufacturing shares his unlikely journey from part-time welder to co-owner of a thriving 132-employee operation. When industry consolidation threatened to change the game, he had to decide whether to expand aggressively or seek the right partner to carry the business forward. Tyler and Ashley Arrell, owners of Perfect Exteriors, walk us through their experience navigating private equity interest, evaluating strategic buyers, and prioritizing their team's future over the highest payout.

Throughout the conversation, Erin provides expert perspective from CLA's owner transition services team, breaking down how to evaluate offers, run an efficient process, and protect your legacy. The discussion covers everything from preparing your books for sophisticated buyers to why you should always run your business as if you're planning to sell—even if you aren't.

If you've ever wondered how to choose between multiple offers, when to bring in professional advisors, or how to ensure your employees and customers are taken care of after the deal closes, this episode delivers both the technical insights and the human side of the transaction.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:32) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA
• (1:40) Introducing the guest co-host and today's panel of sellers
• (3:56) Joel Bauer's unconventional path to business ownership and growth
• (7:37) Tyler and Ashley Arrell's journey to business ownership
• (12:35) The role of unsolicited offers in starting the sales process
• (14:33) How CLA helped assess and improve offers
• (17:36) Choosing between strategic buyers, private equity, and individuals
• (18:21) Fit, culture, and legacy versus the top-dollar offer
• (21:00) Narrowing down dozens of interested buyers
• (23:00) Why buyer interviews reveal more than just numbers
• (24:23) Considering internal transitions versus external sales
• (27:00) Running your business like you'll sell it—whether you do or not
• (32:26) Nail the 7 habits of highly effective workholding with SMW Autoblok
• (33:08) Handling the sale process while keeping the business healthy
• (38:47) How unexpected events often accelerate sales decisions
• (40:50) Inside the interview process with potential buyers
• (44:13) The broker's role in standing firm during negotiations
• (49:28) Why legal, tax, and financial specialists matter in M&A deals
• (50:22) Final advice for owners considering a sale
• (55:20) Navigating surprises in the buy/sell process
• (1:05:13) Register for Top Shops and get 20% off with code MAK20

Resources & People Mentioned

• Grow your top and bottom line with CLA
• Nail the 7 habits of highly effective workholding with SMW Autoblok
• Register for Top Shops and get 20% off with code MAK20!

Connect with CLA

• Clifton Larson Allen (CLA)

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

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If you think selling your business is just about getting the highest number, think again. In Part II of my conversation with the all-star team at CLA—Erin Mickels, Mike Britten, and Mike Pohl—we dig into the fine print that can make or break your deal after the handshake. From LOIs to sales price allocations to working capital battles, this is where the real money is won or lost.

We start with what seems like a formality—signing the LOI—but as you'll hear, that's often the moment your leverage walks out the door. I've seen it firsthand: missed tax planning, bad rollovers, vague language that bites back later. This episode is all about what to watch for before you sign and how to avoid rookie mistakes that can cost you millions.

Then we dive deep into the deal mechanics that trip up even seasoned sellers—working capital disputes, earnout illusions, and how sales price allocations affect what actually ends up in your pocket. If you've never had a deal derailed over working capital, you're lucky. But most sellers? They're not ready for that fight—and it's why deals fall apart at the 11th hour.

And once the wire hits your account? That's not the end—it's the start of a whole new challenge. What do you actually do with that liquidity? How do you avoid the tax bomb that comes a year later? How does your risk profile shift when you're no longer a builder, but a steward of capital?

If you're serious about getting full value for the company you've spent a lifetime building—this episode is essential listening.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:15) Grow your top and bottom-line with CLA
• (1:54) Structuring employee retention bonuses after a sale
• (2:55) Why you shouldn't sign an LOI without legal and tax review
• (11:02) What buyers scrutinize during financial due diligence
• (11:45) Working capital and earn-out frameworks
• (14:18) The challenge of valuing work-in-progress (WIP) in deals
• (16:51) The importance of post-close working capital adjustments
• (17:57) How sales price allocation impacts your tax bill
• (21:44) How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery
• (24:12) Understanding which assets are taxed at ordinary income vs. capital gains
• (25:40) How earnouts tied to employment can trigger wage tax
• (27:15) What to do (and not do) after receiving your payout
• (29:40) How selling changes your risk profile and investment approach
• (32:08) How to value fully depreciated assets in a business sale
• (34:40) What determines your company's EBITDA multiple
• (36:06) Mike's "psycho spreadsheet" for modeling post-acquisition performance
• (38:12) Valuation as both art and science in the lower middle market
• (42:08) How Qualifying Small Business Stock (QSBS) can help you avoid federal taxes
• (44:18) Why complex tax strategies require early planning and good advisors
• (45:44) Stay tuned for Top Shops 2025 registration!

Resources & People Mentioned

• Grow your top and bottom-line with CLA
• How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery

Connect with CLA

• Connect with Erin Mickels, CPA
• Connect with Mike Britten
• Connect with Michael Pohl, CPA, CFP®

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

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Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK