Buy the Numbers

Most of us shop owners tend to keep compensation pretty simple: pay ourselves what the business can afford, pay our team what feels fair, and hope that keeps everyone happy. But I've learned over the years that this approach can quietly hurt the very business we're trying to grow.

In this episode, I sit down with John Jones from Scissortail Executive Advisors to dig into how owner and executive compensation really works—and how getting strategic about it can lead to better retention, stronger tax positioning, and a more valuable business overall.

John and I talk through why it's critical to separate your roles as owner and operator, especially when setting your own salary. We also cover how small shops—yes, even with 10 or 12 employees—can make use of tools like 401(k)s and non-qualified retirement plans. These aren't just for big corporations. There's a ton of flexibility and strategy available here that most folks just don't realize.

I've met a lot of great shop owners who take the bare minimum they need to survive and put everything else back into the business. That's noble, but it's not always the most efficient or rewarding way to structure things. John shares ways to keep your team happy, secure your own financial future, and still make sure the business has what it needs to grow.

If you've never given much thought to how you compensate yourself—or how to build real retention plans for your team—this episode will open your eyes. You'll walk away with practical tools, smarter strategies, and maybe even a little peace of mind.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) Cold open on non-qualified plan flexibility (humorous examples)
• (0:26) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA
• (1:34) How Mike and John first connected over foster dogs
• (3:09) What John's firm does and who they serve
• (5:21) Splitting owner vs. executive compensation (and why it matters)
• (11:28) Intro to 401(k)s and non-qualified plans as supplemental tools
• (13:27) Deep dive into non-qualified plans: flexibility, vesting, tax savings
• (18:44) Structuring benefits for a 12-person machine shop
• (23:40) Get ready for Top Shops 2025 in Charlotte, NC
• (24:05) Tax advantages of these plans for both owner and business
• (26:43) Discretionary contributions and plan flexibility year-to-year
• (33:09) Risks of non-qualified plans in the event of business failure
• (36:56) Costs and scalability of both 401(k) and non-qualified plans
• (39:40) Other areas owners should consider for employee retention
• (42:48 Phantom stock vs. profit sharing for retention and motivation
• (47:10) Final takeaways: tax planning, recruiting, and valuing employees
• (52:54) Head on over and listen to the Machine Shop Mastery podcast

Resources & People Mentioned

• ERISA Guidelines

Connect with John Jones

• Scissortail Executive Advisors
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

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Most of us would never machine a part without checking the tolerances first — so why do so many shop owners sign off on financing agreements without understanding the performance "tolerances" our banks are quietly measuring us against?

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, commercial banker Danny O'Keefe returns to break down two terms that sound like dry legal jargon but carry real operational consequences: loan covenants and personal guarantees. If your shop relies on bank financing to grow, these aren't just details — they're the guardrails shaping what we can do, and what could get us in trouble.

Loan covenants aren't just something we sign and forget. They're the metrics banks use to judge whether our business is still a safe bet. From debt service coverage to balance sheet leverage and owner distributions, these numbers can quietly restrict how we grow, how we pay ourselves, and how much flexibility we have in tough times. If we're not checking them ourselves when we close the books, we could be tripping violations without even knowing — and that's a problem our lender won't ignore.

Then there's the personal guarantee — something a lot of us sign with a shrug, not realizing what it really means. We dig into how it works, when it's enforced, and why it's not usually about losing your house — it's about staying accountable and engaged if the business hits rough waters. With real-world examples, Danny explains how guarantees play out in practice, how banks try to resolve issues, and why going dark is the worst move you can make.

The biggest surprise for many: almost everything about your loan is negotiable — including the covenants and guarantees. But only if you understand your balance sheet, your bank's priorities, and how to advocate for yourself. Whether you're taking out your first note or renegotiating a renewal, this episode gives you the tools to treat your financing like a partnership, not a one-and-done transaction.

By the end, you'll walk away with a clearer view of your bank relationship — not just as a source of capital, but as a strategic tool. One that, when managed well, can protect you and your shop… and when ignored, can quietly start to chip away at your freedom to operate.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) What personal guarantees really mean—and why banks don't want your keys
• (0:29) Achieve on-time delivery with ProShop ERP
• (1:58) Guest reintroduction: Danny's background in commercial lending for shops
• (4:48) Defining the "big scary words": Loan covenants and personal guarantees
• (8:12) How banks evaluate owner distributions and when limits apply
• (9:50) Balance sheet leverage: Why your assets vs. liabilities matter
• (12:53) UCC filings: What they are and why they get overlooked
• (14:37) Proactive vs. reactive reporting: How to stay on your bank's good side
• (23:44) Types of personal guarantees and what really triggers enforcement
• (26:46) Learn how to grow your top and bottom-line with CLA
• (30:24) What happens in worst-case scenarios—and how communication can save you
• (34:14) How outside consultants and investors can step in when banks get nervous
• (40:57) What a strong balance sheet might mean for guarantees
• (46:43) Negotiating your covenants: Why the whole loan is a conversation
• (52:54) The most important things to pay attention to at closing
• (56:35) Why you need to listen to the MakingSparks podcast

Resources & People Mentioned

• Achieve on-time delivery with ProShop ERP
• Banking Secrets for Manufacturers: How to Secure the Cash You Need, Ep #12

Connect with Dan O'Keefe

• Busey Bank
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

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Tariffs aren't just a line item buried in your supply chain—they're a fast-moving, often misunderstood force that could have a massive impact on your profitability, pricing, and even your global strategy. In this eye-opening episode of Buy the Numbers, Jennifer Clement and Leslie Boyd from CLA join me for a masterclass in tariff mitigation strategies. As volatility re-emerges on the global trade front, Jennifer and Leslie offer clarity, practical steps, and a proactive roadmap that manufacturers of all sizes can follow.

Jennifer and Leslie break down the reality that waiting for the rules to settle is no longer a viable plan. Instead, they introduce a three-bucket framework that helps businesses act now, in six months, and long-term—everything from basic "tariff hygiene" and invoice scrubbing to more advanced strategies like tariff engineering, duty drawback, and setting up foreign trade zones.

The conversation also dives into how manufacturers can hold their vendors accountable, optimize their pricing inputs, and think creatively about global operations in a world where tariffs can change mid-shipment. Whether you're sourcing machines from overseas or fielding questions from customers about cost projections, this episode equips you to speak the language of tariffs fluently—and use that fluency to your financial advantage.

Rounding out the discussion is a preview of CLA's upcoming webinar series, a free, multi-part educational deep dive for manufacturers who want to master cost control in a tariff-heavy environment. This isn't just about playing defense—it's about making moves that could shield your margins, even amid economic uncertainty.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) Understanding why tariffs are urgent now and how they impact manufacturers
• (0:14) Learning how CLA helps manufacturers grow their top and bottom line
• (1:35) Getting to know Leslie Boyd and Jennifer Clemente from CLA
• (4:38) Discovering why a proactive strategy is essential despite tariff volatility
• (6:13) Clarifying common misconceptions about tariffs and pricing strategies
• (10:17) Exploring Bucket #1: "Good tariff hygiene" and how invoice scrubbing can save you
• (17:30) Learning additional compliance strategies like transfer pricing and duty drawback
• (18:38) Hearing about the Lights Out podcast and automation trends in manufacturing
• (20:21) Understanding how currency hedging can protect against cost fluctuations
• (22:16) Breaking down the first sale rule and how it reduces tariff costs
• (24:55) Exploring Bucket #2: Using bonded warehouses and free trade zones to defer tariffs
• (28:19) Learning how tariff engineering can reduce exposure by rethinking product design
• (30:44) Exploring Bucket #3: Re-imagining supply chains and reshoring for long-term gains
• (33:51) Understanding the process and odds of getting tariff relief through exclusions
• (36:10) Getting an overview of CLA's upcoming webinar series on tariff mitigation strategies
• (40:24) Completing the Top Shops survey to benchmark your shop against the industry

Resources & People Mentioned

• CLA Tackling Tariffs webinar series
• Tackling Tariffs (Deck to accompany episode)
• Complete the Top Shops survey and let the numbers tell the story

Connect with Jennifer Clement and Leslie Boyd

• CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Connect with Jennifer on LinkedIn
• Connect with Leslie on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

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Most small manufacturers don't realize they're being quietly supported by one of the most impactful public-private partnerships in the country. The Manufacturing Extension Partnership (MEP) has long been the hidden backbone behind training programs, grant facilitation, process improvements, and critical tech upgrades for shops across the U.S. But recent Federal decisions to defund these programs—without clear communication or reasoning—have sparked confusion and alarm among industry insiders.

In this episode, a passionate roundtable of manufacturers and advocates reveals just how deeply the MEPs have shaped their businesses, supported workforce development, and opened doors to opportunity they couldn't have accessed alone. From AR-integrated quoting tools to automation investment guidance, these stories show a clear economic impact that extends far beyond individual shops—right into the health of local communities and the national manufacturing strategy.

If you're just hearing about MEPs now, you're not alone—but you are at risk. This conversation lays out what's at stake, why it matters, and what you can do right now to help save a resource that quietly powers tens of thousands of manufacturers nationwide.

YouTube: https://youtu.be/WNjevmTNUu4

VideoAsk: https://www.videoask.com/fiyvfkcdd

If you're still thinking of culture in your manufacturing shop as a side dish instead of the main course, you're already behind. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sat down with Jim Mayer to unpack what shop culture really looks like on the floor—and why we need to start talking about it differently. This isn't about breakroom ping-pong tables or slogans on the wall. Those things are fine, but they don't build lasting culture. We're talking about turnover, pride, accountability, and results that actually move the needle.

Jim's got a fascinating story—he went from falling off roofs to falling in love with manufacturing, and now he's one of the leading voices on what modern shop leadership needs to look like. He shared how a misstep early in his consulting work (calling himself a "culture consultant") forced him to reframe his approach completely. What he landed on—hands-on workshops and real-time cultural diagnostics—has quietly transformed how a lot of shops build trust and accountability.

What I loved about this conversation is how tactical it got. We talked about the death of command-and-control leadership, the rise of reverse mentorship, and why the youngest people on your team might actually be the cultural glue. We also dove into what I've seen firsthand here at Hill—how we went from a stark divide between the office and the shop floor to a culture that's collaborative, human, and proud.

One thing Jim said really stuck with me: "Culture is individual." That hit hard. It's not about copying someone else's approach; it's about aligning your team to your own values and leading accordingly. We got into the metrics too—how to actually measure culture, and why asking your team if they're proud of where they work might be the highest-leverage question you can ask this year. If culture feels like a fuzzy concept in your shop, this episode will give you the clarity (and the tools) you've been missing.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) Culture is individual: what works for one shop may be toxic to another
• (1:50) Jim's path from contractor to manufacturing leadership (and the problem with "consultant")
• (06:25) Why shop owners resist cultural evaluations—and what works better
• (9:35) The generational shift in manufacturing and the death of command-and-control leadership
• (11:51) Reverse mentorship and how under-35s are leading the cultural charge
• (16:12) Hill Manufacturing's office-floor divide and the cultural shift toward collaboration
• (20:35) What happens to employees when leadership and values change?
• (22:38) Measuring culture: red-yellow-green vs. specific engagement questions
• (24:03) Why you should listen to the Machine Shop Mastery podcast
• (29:27) The power of asking "Are you proud of where you work?"
• (38:18) Jim's 2-day process for diagnosing culture with qualitative and quantitative data
• (42:42) Top five strengths and weaknesses in manufacturing shop cultures
• (48:08) Learn about Mike's business, podcasts, and upcoming workshops
• (54:08) Why you need to take the Modern Machine Shop Top Shops Survey

Resources & People Mentioned

• Take the Modern Machine Shop Top Shops Survey

Connect with Jim Mayer

• Connect on LinkedIn
• The Manufacturing Connector
• The Manufacturing Connector Podcast
• The Manufacturing Culture Podcast
• Work, But Make it Human
• Jim's "Lead the Change" workshops

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

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This conversation will transform how you think about machine tool investments. Keith Granno, a seasoned expert with over three decades of experience in the machine tool industry, offers invaluable insights on the delicate balance between machine selection and long-term profitability. From choosing the right machines to understanding when it's time to upgrade, Keith dives into the critical factors manufacturers often overlook when purchasing new equipment.

You'll hear practical advice on how to evaluate your shop's real needs, focusing on the hidden costs that impact your bottom line, such as tooling, automation, and machine maintenance. Keith emphasizes the importance of buying with an eye on the future, knowing when to act, and what to consider before pulling the trigger on a purchase. With Keith's guidance, you'll gain a clearer understanding of not just how to acquire equipment but how to make sure that equipment serves your growing business for years to come.

This episode is more than just a discussion on what to buy—it's about how to make smarter, data-driven decisions that will pay off in the long run. Whether you're considering a new machine, evaluating the performance of your current assets, or trying to optimize your workflow with automation, you'll walk away with actionable strategies that can elevate your operations and profits.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) Introducing Keith Granno and his background in the machine tool industry
• (5:37) The blend of art and science in the manufacturing industry
• (7:45) The various brands Keith is familiar with and has sold
• (10:10) Key indicators that signal it's time to invest in a new machine
• (14:57) The impact of automation on efficiency and machine performance
• (19:32) Discussing the total cost of ownership and considering hidden costs
• (23:40) Why you should listen to Machine Shop Mastery!
• (26:52) How to determine if a machine is the right solution for your needs
• (32:27) The pros and cons of financing versus paying cash for equipment
• (34:05) The importance of being proactive and investing during slower periods
• (37:36) Mistakes to avoid when purchasing new or used machines
• (47:25) Why you need the right work for the spindle that you're buying
• (52:13) Take The Modern Machine Shop Top Shops Survey

Resources & People Mentioned

• Why you should listen to Machine Shop Mastery!
• Take The Modern Machine Shop Top Shops Survey

Connect with Keith Granno

• Connect on LinkedIn
• TITANS of CNC
• [email protected]

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

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In today's episode of Buy the Numbers, we're diving into the key metrics that help a company scale successfully. Growth can be both exhilarating and overwhelming, especially when you're managing multiple locations and divisions.

How do you ensure that each part of your business is operating smoothly while also keeping a strong grip on the culture and values that made your company successful in the first place? Our guest, Matthew Nix, shares how his company navigated these challenges and the data-driven strategies they've implemented to manage growth effectively.

Matthew Nix, the fifth-generation CEO of Nix Companies, discusses the importance of establishing clear metrics and systems for tracking daily operations. From staffing levels to production capacity and morale, Matthew highlights how small, consistent data points can give a real-time snapshot of a business's health. He also shares the shift from tracking data merely for analysis to using it as a tool for action and decision-making.

One of the major themes in this episode is how to balance growth with maintaining a positive culture. Matthew explains how they've used feedback loops and regular check-ins to keep track of their employees' engagement and morale. He also shares insight into how they've systematized their operations to manage multiple business units under one umbrella, making it easier to identify issues early on and take corrective actions before they become larger problems.

Whether you're running a small shop or a multi-location operation, this episode will give you practical takeaways on how to implement simple, yet effective data-driven systems that help you manage growth while maintaining a focus on your culture and values.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) Introduction to the episode and Matthew Nix
• (3:46) Overview of Matthew's company, podcast, and book
• (10:49) The role of data in managing business growth
• (14:52) The data used for daily decision-making
• (20:44) How morale impacts company culture (and tracking the data)
• (25:06) Weekly metrics: The strategic priority for each business unit
• (28:28) Why you need to listen to the Lights Out Podcast
• (32:40) How to operationalize strategic goals and tie them to KPIs
• (36:58) KPIs for HR: Recruiting and turnover metrics
• (41:08) Using volume and efficiency metrics in business development
• (46:57) Why lead and lag indicators are important for long-term success
• (51:45) Encouraging employee participation in data tracking
• (54:25) Pro Fab Alliance and how they help other businesses
• (59:06) Why you need to take the Modern Machine Shop Top Shops Survey

Resources & People Mentioned

• Married to Each Other and the Business (Part 1)
• Married to Each Other and the Business (Part 2)
• Josh McKain's Data-Driven Framework to Align Goals and Accountability, Ep #7
• The 4 Disciplines of Execution
• Halftime
• Hire MFG Leaders
• The Modern Machine Shop Top Shops Survey

Connect with Matthew Nix

• Forging Ahead
• ProFab Alliance
• The MakingSparks Podcast

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

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How do you secure the cash you need to run your manufacturing business?

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Dan O'Keefe, Senior Vice President at Busey Bank, to explore the crucial steps in securing a line of credit for your business. If you're a manufacturer looking for financing, this episode is packed with essential advice on how to prepare.

We walk through the specific financial documents you need to have in order when applying for a line of credit, from profit and loss statements to accounts receivable aging reports. Dan explains what banks are looking for and why these documents are key to getting approved.

Beyond just having the right documents, we discuss how to make your business more attractive to banks. Dan shares insights into what banks want to see in your financials, such as strong cash flow, solid inventory management, and the ability to manage receivables.

We also dive into the importance of building a strong relationship with your banker. A solid connection can help smooth the process, ensuring that your banker understands your business and your specific needs for credit.

Whether you're applying for your first line of credit or expanding an existing one, this episode will give you the tools you need to successfully navigate the application process and secure the capital to grow your business.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) Learn about Dan O'Keefe, Senior Vice President at Busey Bank
• (6:21) How to build a strong, positive connection with a bank
• (7:38) What information does a bank need from you?
• (11:29) What is a borrowing base?
• (12:35) The impact of customer payment terms
• (17:58) What does it mean to "underwrite" a customer?
• (20:06) How a bank calculates the amount of credit available
• (22:01) The impact of customer concentration on credit lines
• (25:03) Red flags that banks look out for
• (27:44) How banks look at inventory (raw materials, WIP, and finished goods)
• (32:11) Using a line of credit as a backup for payroll
• (36:43) How to prepare for a line of credit request

Connect with Dan O'Keefe

• Busey Bank
• Connect on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

on Apple + Spotify

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What if you could save thousands on your taxes with a few strategic changes to your business? In this episode, Nick Romanelli and Dylan Valentyn from Clifton Larson Allen share key tax strategies that many manufacturers overlook.

We dive into the R&D tax credit, showing how manufacturers—whether small job shops or larger factories—can qualify by innovating in ways they may not have considered, such as improving products, developing new processes, or creating prototypes. By documenting these activities and tracking time and materials, manufacturers can unlock valuable credits that could significantly boost their bottom line.

We also explore the impact of the Section 174 rules, which now require manufacturers to capitalize and amortize research expenses over several years rather than expensing them immediately. While this change can affect cash flow, the R&D tax credit offers relief by providing a dollar-for-dollar reduction in tax liability. Nick and Dylan explain how to navigate these changes and ensure manufacturers are maximizing their R&D claims.

Next, we discuss the critical decision of entity selection—LLC, S Corp, or C Corp. Nick and Dylan break down the advantages and disadvantages of each structure, and how making the right choice can lower your tax burden, attract investment, and set up your business for long-term success.

Finally, we introduce the Work Opportunity Tax Credit (WOTC), a valuable but often overlooked tax benefit for manufacturers who hire employees from groups facing employment barriers, such as veterans or long-term unemployed individuals.

Tune in to discover how these tax strategies can save you money and help your manufacturing business thrive, plus a look at what tax changes to watch for in 2025.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• (0:00) Introduction to the episode and the guests
• (0:59) Depreciation strategies for IT and power infrastructure
• (02:25) The overlooked opportunity of R&D tax credits
• (04:34) Tracking R&D activities for tax credit qualification
• (10:32) The process for claiming R&D credits
• (13:51) The impact of the 174 rules on research expenses
• (17:10) Tax strategy for manufacturers considering entity selection
• (21:16) Exploring the Work Opportunity Credit
• (24:18) Tax changes to watch for in 2025

Resources & People Mentioned

• CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)
• Glossary of Terms

Connect with Dylan Valentyn and Nick Romanelli

• Connect with Dylan on LinkedIn
• Connect with Nick on LinkedIn

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

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What can you do to impact your tax liability for 2024?

With tax season right around the corner, manufacturers are faced with the crucial task of optimizing their tax strategies to both reduce liabilities and unlock future growth potential.

In part one of a two-part series, I sat down with tax experts Dylan Valentyn and Nick Romanelli from CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) to explore the critical tax-saving opportunities that could significantly improve cash flow and business sustainability—for 2024 and beyond.

We kick off with a discussion on tax planning, particularly focusing on strategies for deferring taxes and accelerating deductions. Dylan and Nick emphasize how businesses can free up valuable cash flow through smart deferral tactics, such as depreciation, and how this can be reinvested to fuel future growth. They also dive into the importance of working closely with your accountant to ensure that tax strategies are aligned with the business's long-term goals, especially when planning for 2025.

One of the key strategies explored is reviewing capital expenditures and utilizing powerful tax-saving tools like Section 179 deductions, bonus depreciation, and cost segregation studies. Dylan and Nick explain how these methods can offer immediate tax relief and boost cash flow—saving manufacturers substantial amounts in taxes.

Dylan and Nick also unravel common misconceptions about taxes in the manufacturing sector. They break down the importance of inventory accounting methods (FIFO vs. LIFO), offer insights into managing capital purchases, and provide guidance on how to navigate complex tax decisions that can make or break a business's financial performance.

This episode is packed with information you can employ to make a difference right now. Don't miss it.

STAY TUNED: In the next episode, the team will dive even deeper into advanced strategies that focus on long-term tax planning. It will be can't-miss in-depth advice that could help unlock your business's full financial potential.

You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...

• [2:08] Get to know Dylan Valentyn and Nick Romanelli
• [4:59] Why taxes are a misunderstood concept
• [6:48] What can you do to impact your tax liability for 2024?
• [10:49] Dissecting FIFO versus LIFO
• [15:30] Small business taxpayer exception
• [17:58] Non-incidental materials and supplies
• [19:08] Cash versus accrual accounting
• [26:02] Do contract methods matter to accounting?
• [27:53] What is a cost segregation study?

Resources & People Mentioned

• CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA)

Connect with Dylan Valentyn and Nick Romanelli

• Connect with Dylan on LinkedIn
• Connect with Nick on LinkedIn
• Glossary of Terms and More Resources

Connect With Buy the Numbers

• Follow on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn

Subscribe to Buy the Numbers

On Apple and Spotify

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