Dr. Daniel White Hodge survived 8 long years at APU, teaching in Global Studies and Biblical Studies. He refused to play nice with the white supremacist culture of the school, and that, as many of us know very well, makes for a tortuous experience at APU. But like many of us, Dan found and developed his identity as a Black man and as a Christian as he fought for his humanity and his place at the school. After 8 years of teaching and fighting the racist culture of the students, the faculty, and the administration, Dan was done. He has gone on to teach at other schools and his podcast, Profane Faith is in its 6th season.

I met Dan through Sammie Howell, whom you've heard in episode 4 of this podcast, and loved seeing him around campus and hanging out once in a while. He was gracious enough to come speak to APASO one night, and he scared the bejesus out of the Asian kids with his account of his experience in the LA Riots. 

But Dan is such a great ally of all marginalized peoples, including Asian Americans, and his humor and generous spirit is infectious. Through his teaching and his podcast, he is making the world a better place through dialogue and story.

The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.

Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.

Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.

Jonathan Garcia just gets shit done. He has made a life of putting himself in places of power and influence, at times at great cost to his sanity and humanity. As an undergrad and graduate student at APU, he forged his identity as a co-founder of LASA (Latin American Student Association), as a leader in student government, and as a member of the administration itself. That put him at the table with rich, conservative, bigoted people, but Jonathan worked to form relationships and influenced their views. The significance of the fact that he got the president of the school at the time, Jon Wallace, to change his views on immigration can't be overstated. APU is a place where hispanic students can go with support and financial aid, regardless of citizenship status. Real change as a result of Jonathan and LASA.

For people like me, I have only disgust and hurt when I think of APU's administration and board of trustees. I was never given the benefit of the doubt, and I was listed as a "bad" or "dangerous" professor simply because I dared talk about social justice, racism, sexuality, and identity in my classes. But Jonathan reminds me that the people I hate are, in fact, people. He gave them the chance to see him and rethink their views. He's a goddamn hero.

Jonathan is currently the Chief of Staff at Portland Public Schools. He has worked in education at several huge school districts, and he was named by Forbes as one of their 30 Under 30 in Education.

The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.

Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.

Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.

Liam Young is a former student who, by all measures, shouldn't have gotten along with me. When we first met, he was ultra-conservative and a newly enlisted Marine. But from the very beginning, he was interested in learning and being challenged. Seeing firsthand how the prosperity gospel is both a horrible misreading of the bible and a weapon used against lower-income people, Liam began deconstructing from evangelicalism early on. From there he saw racism and other forms of bigotry ingrained in evangelical culture, but here's where it gets interesting. Instead of sliding into liberal or progressive views, Liam looked more into older versions of christianity.

It's not my thing at all, but it makes a kind of sense when you think about it. Contemporary versions of christianity have added white nationalism, bigotry, and worship of money to their religion, Liam went looking to church traditions that existed around 1500 years before evangelicals were formed. There he and his wife found theological answers to his criticisms of evangelicalism, but there was a catch. They found all this theological wonder in an Egyptian Coptic Orthodox church. 

In the end, Liam is a kindred spirit who cares about humanity while holding to his faith. I salute him for that. So many conservative kids came and went through my classroom who refused to engage in discourse about tough topics. Liam was always up for discussion, and he was an eager and active listener. All this made for an amazing story of personal convictions leading to growth and discovery. An inspiring and fascinating story all around.

The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.

Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.

Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.

Before LASA (Latin America Student Association), ethnic orgs at APU were places to hide out away from the oppressive white culture that dominated the campus. The Multi-Ethnic Programs office was safe space to find your people and build communities of support. Matthew Gonzalez, Rod Olmeda-Lopez, and Jonathan Garcia created LASA during the beginning of the Obama era. Not content to just offer support and care to the shell-shocked Latino(x) community's daily experiences of racism, they forced APU to confront its racism head on. They changed school policy and fought the school's racism when the school told them they couldn't honor the late Joe Snell, the director of MEP, with a Dia de los Muertos offrenda. 

APU only had Town Hall meetings when the shit really hit the fan. Just a year earlier, it held one to address one of the many swastika incidents. LASA would force a second one when it voiced its anger at having their Dia de los Muertos display taken down for no other reason than it was not a white tradition. The admin told them it had pagan roots despite acknowledging that school-sanctioned events around Halloween and Christmas also had pagan roots. The difference? Hmmmm....

But it wasn't just protesting. They worked with administration and the board of trustees to get APU designated as "serving hispanic communities," they made financial aid available to undocumented students, and they got Spanish translations for the live stream of graduation. Just as importantly, LASA pushed the culture to pay attention to all non-white communities, which may sound strange, but believe me...that was something. 

These guys are my brothers. I'm so proud of who they have become, and I'm honored to have seen them grow from confused young evangelical men into who they are today. Do I poke fun of them? Of course. But they are two of the strongest and most admirable people I've ever known. Enjoy the episode.

The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.

Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.

Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, and Scott Okamoto.

For at least 6 or 7 years, maybe more, an amazing event took place at APU (and then the Citrus College parking lot when they got booted). The LGBTQ club, first called the GSA (gay-straight alliance) and then Haven, put on a showcase of LGBTQ creativity and pride. At first, it was just called "Art Night," and it was held at the 7 Palms, an outdoor amphitheater ringed by palm trees...7 of them, I believe, though I don't think I ever actually counted. The first few years, the group was underground, and we relished the thrill of putting on an event with poetry, music, and visual art celebrating LGBTQ identities in plain sight on APU's campus. It was a brazen thing to do, since technically, we could have all been kicked out for doing it. But we did it. 

Abbie and Liz Cirelli both played significant roles in making the GSA/Haven and Art Night happen, and they both organized protests and movements to change the draconian culture and policies of APU. They made things happen by building coalitions and using them to force the administration and the culture to shift its policies and views of LGBTQ people. Badasses, both of them.

This is the first of two episodes with Abbie and Liz who will be back to continue the stories about feminism and misogyny inside APU's conservative evangelical culture. 

You can find resources for LGBTQ advocacy on christian campuses at The REAP. 

The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.

Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.

Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.

Ella Baker survived APU while presenting as a half Korean and White young man knowing she was something more. Her deconstruction began early on as she realized through the sheer force of her intellect that evangelical culture had lied to her. After a period of atheism and anger, she channeled her energies into spiritual growth and became a strong, zen, christian, trans woman. 

While at APU, she was part of a group of students called, the Sisters 9. It was a writing group where they could share their writing and music that didn't fit with the values and ethos of APU's ultra-conservative evangelical culture. This group inspired me with its commitment to developing their craft with all of them developing their own identities in direct opposition to APU's identity. They were, to me, a combination of the Bloomsbury Group in 1920's England and the Beat generation of the 60's. You will hear more from this group in the future.

Finally, you will hear an indictment of evangelical higher education. While there are some damn fine professors at places like APU, far too many classes are taught as evangelical indoctrination courses instead of the stated subjects in the course descriptions. Depending on your path through the faculty, you could be well-prepared for graduate school or horribly unprepared. Or something in between. Whatever the academic experience, you will be traumatized if you aren't a conservative cis-het, white person.

As with others on this podcast, Ella found a way to survive and learn to convert the trauma into life skills. You will be inspired.

You can find Ella at Heyellabird on Instagram. 

The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.

Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.

Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.

Sammie Howell was one of the progressive pillars of her class of 2010. She went from "on fire" somewhat conservative evangelical to firebrand progressive warrior in her four years at APU. From the very beginning of her experience, she found herself on the outside of APU's white, wealthy culture. After an early incident where a fellow student asked her if she knew how to use chopsticks (Filipinos don't use chopsticks for their food), she found APASO (Asian Pacific American Student Org) and began her growth into a badass leader in a sort of Multi Ethnic Org renaissance. In addition to her work and advocacy for race issues, she joined the newly formed Gay/Straight alliance, even taking great risk in lending her apartment as the secret meeting space. If we had been found out, we would have faced grave consequences, as we had members of student government, RA's, and...a faculty member at those meetings.

There is a surprise at the end of the episode that both gives a glimpse into Sammie's strength, pain, and love, while at the same time making the case that white evangelical spaces are not safe for those on the margins. 

Join the fight on the Chapel Probation Patreon where you can hear an introductory interview with Satan and Baby Jesus with more content on the way.

And we've started a Chapel Probation Facebook Group where we share our stories from all christian schools. We need more people from other schools! There is also a Chapel Probation Instagram with previews of coming episodes. A fledgling Discord Server that is hanging by a thread, so consider joining to help out.

Big thanks to Shin Kawasaki and Wingso Shackleford for the new music this week that takes the episode to new places. 

Additional music by Elephants With Guns and Scott Okamoto.

Meet Dacia, a Black Samoan woman who could always be found in APU's social justice spaces spitting poems, singing, and clapping back at white supremacy. She looks back and talks about how she was so angry at the white evangelical culture around her while simultaneously playing along and repping the school as a Multi-Ethnic senator. She also shares the struggle students face when they come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds than the majority of students at APU. 

One of Scott's most memorable moments in his 15 years at APU came courtesy of Dacia. In her last semester, she was forced to take a freshman-level Intro to Literature class in order to graduate, so she took Scott's class. In it, she performed a poem and created a moment that will forever be cemented in Scott's (and the class's) memory. V is for victory and...

You can find Dacia's work on Instagram and her podcast about Samoan culture, The Real Tautala. 

Music this week by Elephants With Guns, and Azeem Kahn, in addition to Scott's original music.

If you think the mission of Chapel Probation is important, consider joining the Patreon. There will be bonus content and behind-the-scenes stuff. 

If APU knew that it was directly responsible for the deconstruction of conservative, white men, it would lose a lot of sleep. BJ Karlik is a physical therapist in Colorado Springs who now identifies as an atheist. He credits APU's Bible classes for his deconstruction, and his story obliterates the current narrative from famous Evangelical pastors who say the EX-Vangelical movement is based solely on "isolated" bad experiences of bigotry and a desire for hedonism. Bigotry is, indeed, an issue, and hedonism is fun, but those are not the only reasons for deconstruction. In BJ's case, they weren't remotely involved in his deconstruction. 

There is a salute to BJ's wife, Carrie, who BJ says "did a little Campus Crusade in college" (sounds like drug experimentation!) who came to understand the urgent need to see the Evangelical world for what it is. It takes courage to ask hard questions and take stands that leave you on the outside of communities created for you, and both BJ and Carrie have shown a great deal of it. 

Please consider joining the Chapel Probation Discord server to continue the conversation and get more insights into each episode. 

And if you're interested in supporting the Chapel Probation mission, please join the Chapel Probation Patreon and get bonus content.

I went down to Hell to get a sound cue for this episode, so I hope everyone appreciates the effort there. Thanks to my son, Ethan and his friends for their screams.