ChooseFI | Financial Independence Podcast

Most Americans never truly disconnect from work—even on vacation. After decades of tying your identity, daily rhythm, and sense of worth to a paycheck, stepping away feels less like freedom and more like freefall. Oz Chen spent years financially independent before he could accept it, wrestling with the psychological gap between having enough money and being okay with not working.

Oz's Background and FI Journey (00:02:30)

The Job That Changed Everything (00:08:15)

Taking FMLA Leave as an Experiment (00:15:40)

The Unexpected Layoff (00:22:30)

Wrestling with Fear and Acceptance (00:28:00)

Practical Strategies for Decumulation (00:35:45)

Life After Work and Future Plans (00:42:20)

Ginger: "Pain plus resistance equals suffering. The pain is part of the human experience, but the resistance is the thing that you can control."

Oz Chen: "I accept that not having a paycheck coming in will feel weird and scary. I can have the feeling and it doesn't have to change what I'm doing."

Oz Chen: "Clarity through action versus expecting clarity before action. Breaking things down into smaller components generates clarity."

Oz Chen: "The productivity engine is something that often buzzes in the background for optimizers. There's always something to work on, always something to optimize."

Oz Chen: "I realized my fear was a very generalized fear. Writing down that fear and asking, is that true? helped me see it's potentially a reversible decision."

Every expert sounds convincing until you realize you've collected ten different "right" answers to the same retirement question. Brad Barrett recently found himself overwhelmed by competing FI strategies—from Cody Garrett's bond ladders to Aubrey Williams' risk-based guardrails—and came to a liberating conclusion: sometimes you just need to pick one and move on.

Navigating Conflicting Expert Advice (00:02:15)

Making Financial Decisions Without Certainty (00:10:30)

Brad's Japan Trip: Spontaneity Over Optimization (00:22:45)

The Kumano Kodo Trail Experience (00:35:20)

Travel Rewards Strategy and Hotel Points (00:48:00)

Brad Barrett on expert advice overload: "I suspect if we had ten different experts in with ten different vehement opinions, I think you and I could be convinced on any of them which might suggest that I think you just pick one."

Brad Barrett on simple withdrawal strategies: "It's very reasonable to just log in every month and say, hey, I need three thousand dollars this month, and you go and sell three thousand dollars worth of funds. There's nothing wrong with that."

Ginger on decision paralysis: "How do we ultimately make these decisions? There comes a point when it's like, these all sound great, but I have to choose one."

Brad Barrett on travel philosophy: "For me, travel is whatever I want to learn about myself, what I want to learn about what I want my life to look like in the future. And those little micro lessons are pretty useful."

Brad Barrett on optimization: "I don't think life is necessarily about optimizing all the time. So I think that led to a much better trip."

Use Notebook LM to compare different expert strategies by inputting source documents from various FI experts you trust and having an AI-assisted conversation to clarify differences

Consider consulting a fee-only CFP through services like Hello Nectarine ($175-400/hour) when you're within 1-2 years of retirement for specific guidance on withdrawal strategies

Read 'Tax Planning To and Through Early Retirement' by Sean and Cody to better understand tax optimization strategies for early retirement

Before canceling a co-branded credit card, verify points have transferred to the loyalty program and check the expiration policy for any free night certificates

Calculate your potential tax liability in early retirement using the standard deduction and 0% long-term capital gains bracket to understand how much you can withdraw tax-free

Research versatile travel clothing (Merino wool shirts, multi-purpose shorts) that work for both hiking and casual dining to simplify packing

Explore Agoda for hotel booking in Asia and compare rates with standard travel rewards redemptions

ChooseFI Episode 566 - Risk-Based Guardrails for Drawdown with Aubrey Williams

ChooseFI Episode 606 - Target Date Funds with Cody Garrett

ChooseFI Episode 594 - Travel Rewards Deep Dive with Noah

ChooseFI Episode 601 - Travel Rewards Refresher for 2026 with Devin Gimbel

ChooseFI Travel Resources

Agoda - Hotel Booking Platform

Notebook LM by Google - AI Research Tool

Hello Nectarine - Flat-Fee Financial Advice

Tax Planning To and Through Early Retirement - Book by Sean and Cody

The Simple Path to Wealth - Book

Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement - Mr. Money Mustache

A Little Local Flavor - Christine Wheatley's Business

Starting with negative net worth at 47 in Los Angeles on $58,000 a year sounds impossible. Yet Paige reached financial independence by 56, retired early, and now lives exactly the life she designed. This isn't theory — this is what happened nine years after her first ChooseFI appearance.

Paige: "You either trust the math or you don't trust the math. And I trust the math. It has served me and I've trusted the math for ten years and it's worked."

Paige: "When you have something you want and you're getting something you want, you don't feel like you're sacrificing."

Paige: "The great thing about FIRE is it asks you to say, who are you and what do you value most? And when you do that, somehow, the money does fall into place a little bit better."

Paige: "I bought an extra ten years of freedom for myself than the average by just doing what I had already been doing."

Paige: "I don't have to monetize my life anymore. I can just enjoy what I do as an artist solely to do it for my own personal enjoyment. And that is wonderful."

Paige started her journey to financial independence at 45 with student loans, negative net worth, and an average income in Los Angeles—yet she'll reach FI by 2025. Sam lives on $12,000 per year in the same expensive city and champions "retiring often" instead of early retirement. Together, they prove that every excuse about FI being impossible is just a limiting belief waiting to be shattered.

Introduction and Context

Paige's FI Discovery

Sam's Early FI Journey

Living on $12,000/Year in LA

The Alley Will Provide

Housing Arbitrage and The DIY House

Breaking Down Limiting Beliefs

Path to FI by 2025

Hot Seat Round

"The alley will provide." — Paige

"Don't retire early, retire often." — Sam

"The best time to start investing was twenty years ago. The second best time is today." — Sam

"Earning more, but still living on thirty, I feel so much freer. It feels so different." — Paige

"Forgive yourself for not having done it sooner. Because if you get hung up on that, you're just going to get stuck." — Sam

A 40-year-old physician associate and his wife walked away from their jobs with $50,000 earmarked for a year of world travel. They returned having spent just $30,000—and visited 15+ countries across four continents. This isn't a story about deprivation or cutting corners. It's about strategic geography, intentional choices, and the freedom that comes from knowing exactly what you value.

Introduction and Background

The Genesis of the Trip

Financial Foundation and Savings Rate

Planning and Budgeting

The $30,000 Reality

Travel Strategies and Workaway

Building Community on the Road

Life-Changing Inflection Points

Overcoming Scarcity Mindset

Favorite Destinations

Reintegration and Lessons Learned

Resources and Closing Thoughts

Zack: "We ended up spending just under thirty thousand dollars. If I told you the list of activities we did and the places we visited, you would not think it was possible."

Zack: "Easy decisions, hard life. Hard decisions, easy life. When you spend a lot of time thinking about the hard decisions and you go really deep on the core values of your life, then I think it makes it easier to create systems that will help you move forward."

Zack: "Traveling teaches you simplicity in a very interesting way. When we came home at the end of the year, we had plenty of room to spare in our backpacks. Your mindset just really shifts from 'this is what we think we need' to 'this is what we need.'"

Zack: "I woke up in a coma in the ICU. That experience really brought into perspective mortality and some sense of urgency to do the things in life that you want to do and to not wait."

Ginger: "There's a space between having that thought of reevaluating your life and actually changing your life about it. You changed your life about it. You acted on that assessment."

Your spouse shoots down every FI conversation with "we can't afford it" or "retirement at 35 sounds crazy." You respond with better spreadsheets, tighter logic, more compelling numbers—and somehow make things worse. The problem isn't your math. It's that you're bringing a calculator to an emotional fight.

00:05:30 — When we talk about money, we're not really talking about money. We're talking about security, social status, control, self-worth, and love. FI challenges the social contract most people internalized since childhood: work until 65, then retire. Violating this norm triggers psychological reactance—the tendency to resist when autonomy feels threatened.

00:12:00 — Pursuing FI signals more than personal choices. It implies judgment about others' decisions. If you're pursuing work-optional status at 40, you're indirectly questioning why someone else plans to work until 67. That's why seemingly rational discussions about savings rates become emotionally charged.

00:18:00 — Five common mistakes guarantee FI conversations will fail:

00:28:00 — Start values-based conversations by asking open-ended questions: "If you woke up without work or money worries, what would your perfect Tuesday look like?" This explores shared desires without triggering resistance. People generate their own reasons for change—which proves far more persuasive than any argument you present.

00:35:00 — The elicit-provide-elicit framework from motivational interviewing:

Instead of: "We should save 50% of our income to retire by 40."

00:43:00 — Validation acknowledges concerns without requiring agreement. When your partner worries about market crashes, don't counter with historical data. Say: "I hear you're concerned about losing everything in a downturn. That's a legitimate worry worth addressing." Then explore solutions together.

00:50:00 — Regular money dates reduce emotional charge. Schedule monthly 30-minute check-ins specifically about finances. Make them pleasant—coffee shop, weekend morning, whatever feels special. Low-stakes repetition normalizes these conversations.

00:56:00 — First understand the resistance. What do they feel they're losing? Status from career advancement? Daily structure? Social connections? Address the emotional concern behind the objection.

Start with minimal commitments rather than aggressive savings rates. Instead of "let's save 60% of income," try "what if we saved an extra $100 this month?" Build momentum through small wins that don't trigger reactance.

01:02:00 — The four essential communication skills:

Jasper Lee: "You cannot beat an emotional objection with a logical argument."

Jasper Lee: "When we talk about money, we're not really talking about money. We're talking about security, social status, control, your self-worth, love."

Jasper Lee: "People are always more persuaded by arguments they generate themselves than by arguments you present to them."

Brad Barrett: "The journey to FI is probably about ninety percent psychological and maybe only five percent to ten percent about the actual mechanics of money."

Jasper Lee: "If I tell you I'm pursuing FI, I'm signaling to you not only what my choices are, but what I might be thinking about your choices."

Dr. Jasper Lee's Website

Brad Barrett's daughter just graduated high school. She's heading to college in a few months. The number of times he'll see her for the rest of his life? Already countable. This realization—visceral and unavoidable—brought him back to a conversation that changed both his and Chris Hutchins' lives nearly four years ago: their interview with Bill Perkins about Die with Zero.

Introduction and Episode Impact

Seasons of Life and Time Bucketing

The Optimization Trap

Frugality as Superpower and Liability

Running the Numbers on Withdrawal Rates

What Are You Optimizing For?

Time, Work, and Life Balance

Action Items and Future Plans

"You should fear wasting your life more than you fear running out of money." — Brad Barrett (quoting Bill Perkins)

"Time is everything. My daughter just graduated high school. She's going to William & Mary in a couple months and again, you talk about seasons of life. Combining this with Tim Urban's The Tail End article, you realize time is running out." — Brad Barrett

"I think frugality is a superpower at times and then it becomes a liability at times." — Brad Barrett

"What I know for certain is every day I'm running out of time. So that's like a metaphysical certainty. You are running out of time." — Brad Barrett

"I've gotten good at spending more when things aren't crazy expensive. Where I still struggle tremendously is when I feel like I'm paying for something that there's a reasonable way to get it for a better deal." — Chris Hutchins

Reaching financial independence is supposed to be the goal—but what if you get there and realize the real skill isn't earning or saving, but learning to spend? And what if the metric for business success has nothing to do with revenue growth and everything to do with protecting your nervous system?

Introduction and the Hidden Curriculum

Redefining Business Success

Enoughness and Simplifying Life

The Tuesday Project

Daily Routines and Time Abundance

The Skill of Spending in FI

From Scarcity to Abundance

Values, Idealism, and Materialism

Health and the Better Body Challenge

Backing Yourself Into a Corner

Brad Barrett: "A lot of people who consistently build extraordinary lives ask, what am I missing, and how could this be useful to me?"

Diania Merriam: "Success is a calm nervous system for you personally."

Diania Merriam: "I'm not looking for followers. I'm not looking for customers. I really look at them as my peers."

Diania Merriam: "My risk has flipped from running out of money to running out of time. I am much more willing to waste money than to waste time."

Diania Merriam: "The less materialistic I am, the more idealistic I get to be."

Most investors think they're buying the same thing when they choose a target date fund—but two people who bought 2025 target date funds 15 years ago could have 40% different returns today. Same target year, wildly different outcomes. The culprit? Fund families structure these "simple" investments in dramatically different ways, and most investors never look under the hood.

Passive Investing vs Active Financial Planning (00:03:30)

Understanding Target Date Funds (00:08:15)

Surprising Differences Between Target Date Funds (00:18:45)

Comparing Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard Target Dates (00:24:00)

The Hidden Costs of Target Date Funds (00:32:20)

Static Allocation Funds Explained (00:38:10)

Target Maturity vs Constant Maturity Bond Funds (00:42:30)

The Seven-Year Bond Strategy (00:48:15)

Bond Ladders and Behavioral Finance (00:55:00)

Simplicity vs Complexity in Portfolio Design (01:02:30)

Mike Piper, CPA (quoted by Cody Garrett, CFP®):

Rick Ferri, CFA (quoted by Cody Garrett, CFP®):

Cody Garrett, CFP®:

Cody Garrett, CFP®:

Brad Barrett:

Review your 401(k) fund lineup and sort by expense ratio to identify the lowest-cost index fund options available to you

If your 401(k) lacks low-cost index funds (under 0.10% expense ratio), contact your plan administrator to request they be added to the fund lineup

Calculate how much money you plan to spend from your portfolio over the next seven years to determine your appropriate bond allocation

Visit Morningstar.com and review the portfolio tab of any target date funds you currently own to understand their underlying holdings and allocation strategy

Download Cody's 10-question portfolio design exercise at measuretwicemoney.com/ChooseFI to create a strategy you can stick with long-term

Consider whether target maturity bond funds might help you overcome psychological barriers to spending in retirement

Review your current investments to ensure you're not paying 2-4x more for a target date fund when you could purchase underlying index funds directly

Website

Book

Morningstar.com for fund research and portfolio analysis

ChooseFI Episode 556 with Rachel Camp, CFP®

ChooseFI Episode 194 with Frank Vasquez on the role of bonds

Oblivious Investor blog by Mike Piper, CPA

Bogleheads community

Vanguard Total World Stock ETF (VT), Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI), Vanguard Total Bond Market ETF (BND)

iShares iBonds, Invesco BulletShares, Vanguard Bond Builder Target Maturity ETFs, State Street My Income ETFs

At 21, Cody Berman appeared on ChooseFI as a college student discovering financial independence. Three years later, he retired at 26. Now 30 with a $5 million net worth, he's back to reveal exactly how he compressed a decades-long journey into a three-year sprint—and why the same principles work whether you're 25 or 55.

00:05:30

Cody's path to financial independence was methodical and aggressive. Between ages 22 and 25, he experimented with over 20 side hustles, scaling his income from $96K to more than $400K annually. The key? He kept expenses locked at just $24K per year—creating a massive gap of $625K over three years.

That gap fueled three wealth-building engines:

By his 26th birthday, Cody had achieved "cashflow FI"—his passive income streams covered living expenses without touching his investment portfolio.

00:18:00

Brad and Cody explore why some people achieve FI while others with similar incomes stay stuck. The answer isn't math—it's psychology and awareness.

Cody attributes his success to having a clear destination. When you know exactly where you're going and why it matters, spending $100 on something that doesn't serve that destination becomes harder than saying no. The infamous "second marshmallow" experiment demonstrates this: delaying gratification becomes easier when you're aware of what you're trading for.

As Cody puts it: "Earn more, spend less, invest the gap. Very simple. That is financial independence in a nutshell."

00:28:00

Let's demolish the myth of truly passive income. Cody manages 13 rental properties—but spends just 4-5 hours per month on them. This represents the spectrum of passive income: not zero effort, but minimal effort relative to the returns.

The secret? Working in seasons rather than constant hustle mode. Some months require more attention (tenant turnover, maintenance issues), while others are nearly hands-off. Cody's businesses also follow this pattern—periods of intense development followed by relative autopilot.

Brad reinforces this with math: "Every $100 a month you can cut out of your budget is $30,000 less you need in your FI number." Over 20 years, that $100/month compounds to $60K invested. That's a $90K swing from a single optimization.

00:42:00

Forget exotic vacations—FI is about winning on a random Tuesday. Cody and Lauren's ideal weekday reveals what financial independence actually looks like:

Morning: Wake naturally, coffee together, workout (him: gym; her: Pilates), shower, work on creative projects they enjoy

Midday: Lunch together, afternoon walk in their neighborhood, separate time for individual pursuits

Evening: Dinner together, reading, quality time before bed

Nothing dramatic. No yachts. Just complete autonomy over every hour of a normal day.

They maintain this through monthly alignment meetings—typically at a restaurant over a nice meal—covering:

They also record an annual video reviewing the year, creating a time capsule of their journey.

00:58:00

What actually happens when you achieve FI? Cody shares the uncomfortable truth: "Anything that you say that you want to do and that you don't do is a Cody problem. Before FI, you can blame things on time. You can blame things on money."

When those excuses disappear, you're left facing yourself. That can be liberating and terrifying.

His new book, Retire by Thirty, addresses this and more. Like Tim Ferriss's The Four Hour Workweek, the title is provocative but the principles are universal. Whether you compress your FI journey from 50-55, 33-36, or any timeframe, the core concepts remain the same: maximize the gap, invest intelligently, build passive income streams, and design a life aligned with your values.

01:12:00

Brad poses the critical question: What if you're 50 and just discovering FI?

Cody's answer: Hit expenses first. Housing is typically the biggest expense—and the most flexible. House hacking isn't just for 22-year-olds. Could you take in a roommate? Build an ADU? Downsize temporarily? The path to FI is littered with people who said "I can't do that." Those who achieve it ask instead: "How can I do that?"

As Brad observes: "You should switch your I can't into how can I and then listen to podcasts like this, find people who are actually doing it."

The excuse of "I can't because I have kids" or "I can't because of my age" falls apart when you find role models with your exact constraints who succeeded anyway. Roger Bannister didn't break the four-minute mile because he was superhuman—he broke it because he believed it was possible. Once he did, dozens followed within months.

"The path to FI is littered with people who said, I can't do that. And Cody turned around and said, how can I do that?" — Brad Barrett

"Earn more, spend less, invest the gap. Very simple. That is financial independence in a nutshell." — Cody Berman

"You should switch your I can't into how can I and then listen to podcasts like this, find people who are actually doing it." — Cody Berman

"Anything that you say that you want to do and that you don't do is a Cody problem. Before FI, you can blame things on time. You can blame things on money." — Cody Berman

"Every $100 a month you can cut out of your budget is $30,000 less you need in your FI number." — Brad Barrett

Cody's Work:

Mentioned: