Idiopathic intracranial hypertension (IIH), a condition of increased intracranial pressure (ICP), causes debilitating headaches and, in some, visual loss. The visual defects are often in the periphery and not appreciated by the patient until advanced; therefore, monitoring visual function with serial examinations and visual fields is essential.

In this episode, Kait Nevel, MD speaks with John J. Chen, MD, PhD, and Susan P. Mollan, MBChB, PhD, FRCOphth, authors of the article “Treatment and Monitoring of Idiopathic Intracranial Hypertension” in the Continuum® June 2025 Disorders of CSF Dynamics issue.

Dr. Nevel is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a neurologist and neuro-oncologist at Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Dr. Chen is a professor of ophthalmology and neurology at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.

Dr. Mollan is an honorary professor of metabolism and systems science in the department of neuro-ophthalmology at University Hospitals Birmingham in Birmingham, United Kingdom.

Additional Resources

Read the article: Treatment and Monitoring of Idiopathic Intracranial Hypertension

Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum

Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME

Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud

More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com

Social Media

facebook.com/continuumcme

@ContinuumAAN

Host: @IUneurodocmom

Guests: @chenmayo, @DrMollan

Full episode transcript available here

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast.

Dr Nevel: Hello, this is Dr Kate Nevel. Today, I'm interviewing Drs John Chen and Susan Mollan about their article on treatment and monitoring of idiopathic intracranial hypertension, which appears in the June 2025 Continuum issue on disorders of CSF dynamics. Drs Chen and Mollan, welcome to the podcast. And please, could you introduce yourselves to the audience?

Dr Chen: Hello, everyone. I'm John Chen, one of the neuro-ophthalmologists at the Mayo Clinic. Thanks for having us here.

Dr Mollan: Yeah, it's great to be with you here. I'm Susan Mollan. I'm a consultant neuro-ophthalmologist in Birmingham, England.

Dr Nevel: Wonderful. So great to have you both here today, and our listeners. To start us off, talking about your article, can you share with us what you think is the most important takeaway from your article for the practicing neurologist out there?

Dr Chen: Yeah, so our article talked about the treatment and monitoring of IIH. And I think one takeaway point is, IIH is becoming much more prevalent now that there's this worldwide obesity epidemic with obesity having- essentially being the largest risk factor for IIH other than female. It's really important to monitor vision because vision loss is often peripheral vision loss at first, which the patient may be completely unaware of. And so, it's important to pair up with an ophthalmologist so you can monitor the papilledema of the visual fields and make sure they don't get permanent vision loss. And in the article, we also talk about- there's been changes in the treatment of severe IIH, where traditionally, we used VP shunts; but there's been a trend toward using more venous sinus stenting in addition to the traditional surgeries.

Dr Nevel: Great, thank you. I think probably most of our listeners or a lot of neurologists out there have a pretty good understanding of kind of the basics of the IIH. But can you kind of just go over a few key characteristics of IIH, and maybe some things that are less commonly known or things that are maybe just been kind of better understood over the past decade, perhaps?

Dr Mollan: Yes, certainly. I think, as Dr Chen said, it's because this condition is becoming more prevalent, people recognize it. I think it's- we like to go back to the diagnostic criteria so that we're making a very accurate diagnosis. So, the patients may come in to the emergency room with, say, papilledema that's been identified elsewhere or crashing headaches. And it's important to go through that sort of diagnostic pathway, taking a blood pressure, taking a full blood count to make sure the patient is anemic, and then moving forward with that confirmation of papilledema into urgent neuroimaging, whether it's CT or MRI, but including venography to exclude a venous sinus thrombosis. And then if you have no structural lesion that's causing the raised ICP, it's moving forward with your lumbar puncture and carefully checking those pressures. But the patients may not only have crashing headache, they often have pulsatile tinnitus and neck pain. I think some of the features that we're now recognizing is the systemic metabolic effects that are unique to IIH. And so, there's an increased risk of cardiometabolic disease that's over and above what is conferred by obesity. Also, our patients have a sort of maternal health burden where they get impaired fertility, gestational diabetes and preeclampsia. And there's also an associated mental health burden, amongst other things. So we're really starting to understand the spectrum of the disease a bit more.

Dr Nevel: Yeah, thank you for that. And that really struck me in your article, how important it is to be aware of those things so that we're making sure that we're managing our whole patient and connecting them with the appropriate providers for some of those other issues that may be associated. For the practicing neurologist out there without all the neuro-ophthalmology equipment, if you will, what should our bedside exam focus on to help us get maybe an early but accurate picture of the patient's visual function when we suspect IIH to be at play, perhaps before they can get in with the neuro-ophthalmologist?

Dr Chen: Yeah, I think at the bedside you can still check visual acuity and confrontational visual fields, you know, with finger counting. Of course, you have to know that those are, kind of, crude kind of ways of screening. With papilledema, oftentimes the visual acuity is intact. And the confrontational visual fields aren't as sensitive as automated perimetry. Another important thing will be to do your direct ophthalmoscope and look at the amount of papilledema. If it's grade one or two papilledema on the more mild side, it's actually not vision threatening. It's the higher degrees of papilledema that can cause rapid vision loss. And so, if you look in and you see grade one papilledema, obviously you need to do the full workup, the MRI, MRV, lumbar puncture. But in terms of rapidly getting to an ophthalmologist to screen for vision loss, it's not going to be as important because you're not going to have vision loss at that low grade. If you look in and you see this rip-roaring papilledema, grade five papilledema, that patient is going to be at very severe risk of vision loss. So, I think that exam, looking at the optic nerve can be very helpful. And of course, talking to the patient about symptoms; is there decreased vision Is there double vision from a sixth nerve palsy? Are there transient visual obscurations which would indicate at least a higher degree of papilledema? That'd be helpful as well.

Dr Nevel: Great, thank you. And when the patient does get in with a neuro-ophthalmologist, you talk in your article and, of course, in clinical practice, how OCT testing is important to monitor in this condition. Can you provide for the listeners the definition of OCT and how it plays a role in monitoring patients with IIH?

Dr Mollan: Sure. So, OCT is short for optical coherence tomography imaging, and really the eye has been at the forefront of OCT alone. Our sort of cardiology colleagues are catching up on the imaging of blood vessels. But what it allows us to do is give us really good cross-sectional, anatomical-level changes that we can see both in the retina and also at the optic nerve head. And it gives us some really good measurements. It's not so good at sort of saying, is this definitely papilledema or not? That sort of lower end of disc elevation. But it is very good at ruling out what we call the pseudopapilledema. So, things like drusens or these other little masses we find underneath the optic nerve head. But in terms of monitoring, because we can longitudinally take these images and the reproducibility is pretty good at the optic nerve head, it allows us to see whether there's direct changes: either the papilledema getting worse or the papilledema getting better at the optic nerve head. It also gives us some indication of what's going on in the ganglion cell layer complex. And that can be helpful when we're thinking about sort of looking at structure versus function. So, ophthalmologists in general, we love OCT; and we spend much more time nowadays looking at the OCT than we really do the back of the eye. And it's just become critical for patients with papilledema to be able to be very accurate from visit to visit to see what's changing.

Dr Nevel: How do you determine how frequently somebody needs to see the neuro-ophthalmologist with IIH and how often they need that OCT evaluation?

Dr Chen: Once the diagnosis of IIH is made, how often they need to be seen and how frequent they need to be seen depends on the degree of papilledema. And again, OCT is really nice. You can quantify it and then different providers can actually use the same OCT numbers, which is super helpful. But again, if it's grade three papilledema or higher, or article thickness of 200 or higher, I tend to follow them a little bit more closely, trying to treat them more aggressively. Try to get the papilledema down into a safer zone. If it's grade one or two papilledema, we see them less frequently. So, my first visit might be three months out. They come with grade five papilledema, I'm seeing them within a few days to make sure that's papilledema’s come down quickly because we're trying to decide, are they going to need surgery or not?

Dr Nevel: Yeah, great. And that's a nice segue into talking a little bit about how we treat patients with IIH after the diagnosis is confirmed. And I'd like to just point out you have a very lovely figure in your article---Figure 5-6,---that I'd like to direct our listeners to read your article and check out that figure, which is kind of an algorithm on how we think about the various treatment options for patients who have IIH, which seems to rely a lot on the degree of presence of papilledema and the presence of vision disturbance. Could you maybe walk us through a little bit about how you think about the different treatment options for patients with IIH and when more urgent surgical intervention might be indicated?

Dr Mollan: Yeah, sure. We always find it quite hard in any medical specialty to write these kind of flow diagrams because it's really an individual we're looking at. But these are kind of what we’d say is “broad brushstrokes” into those patients that we worry about, sort of, red disease in those patients, more amber disease. Now obviously, even those patients that may not have severe papilledema, they may have crashing headaches. So, they may be an urgent referral themselves because of that. And so, it's nice to try and work out which end of the spectrum you're working with. If we think of the papilledema, Dr Chen's already laid out the sort of lower end of the prison's scale---our grades one, our grades two---that we're less anxious about. And those patients, we would definitely be having discussions about medical management, which includes acetazolamide therapy; but also thinking about weight management. And it may well be that we talk a little bit further about weight management, but I think it's helpful to sort of coach those conversations after you've made a definite diagnosis. And then laying out the risk that's caused, potentially, the IIH in an individual. And then having a sort of open conversation with them about what changes they can have in their lifestyle alongside thinking about medical therapy. There’s some patients with very low levels of papilledema that we decide not to put on medicines initially.

As patients progress up that papilledema grade, we're definitely thinking about medical therapy. And our first line from the IIH treatment trial would be using acetazolamide, but we need to be thinking about using appropriate dosing. So, a lot of the patients that I see can be sent to me with very low doses that may be inappropriate for that person. In the IIHTT they used up to four grams daily in a divided dose. And you do need to counsel your patients when you're putting them on acetazolamide because of the side effects. You've got quite a nice table in this article about the side effects. I think if you get the patient on board, that they understand that they will experience side effects, that is helpful because they will expect it, and then possibly tolerate it a bit better. Moving through to that area where we're more anxious, that visual-threatening papilledema. As Dr Chen said, it's sort of like you look in and it's sort of “blood and thunder” in there. And you need to be getting on and encouraging the ophthalmologist to get a formal assessment of the visual field. It's very difficult to determine exactly the level at which- and we talk about the mean deviation in a lot of our research studies. But in general, it's a combination of things: the patient's journey to get to you, their symptoms, what's going on with the visual field, but what's also happening at the OCT. So, we look in and we see that fluid is seeping towards the fovea. We get very anxious, and those patients may not even have enough time for a rapid escalation of acetazolamide. It may well be at the first presentation, which we would term, like, fulminant; that we'd be thinking about surgical intervention. And I think before I stop, the other thing to say is, the surgical landscape is really changing. So, we're having some good studies coming out in terms of stenting. And so, there is a sort of bracket where it may well be that we are thinking about neuroradiological intervention in an earlier case. They may not quite be at that visual-threatening stage, but they may be resistant to medical treatments.

Dr Nevel: Thank you for that. What do you think is a potential pitfall or a mistake to avoid, if you will, in the management of patients with IIH?

Dr Chen: I think it's- in terms of pitfalls, I think the potential pitfalls I've seen are essentially patients where we don't necessarily create a good patient physician relationship. Where they don't have buy-ins on the treatment, they don't have buy-ins to come back, and they're lost to follow-up. And these patients can be dangerous, because they could have vision threatening papilledema and if not getting the appropriate treatment---and if they're not monitoring the vision---this can lead to poor outcomes. So, I've definitely seen that happen. As Dr Mollan said, you really have to tell them about the side effects from the medications. If you just take acetazolamide, letting them know the paresthesias and the changes in taste and some of these other side effects, they're going to immediately stop the medication. Again, and these medications do work, proven in the IIH treatment trial. So again, I think that patient-physician relationship is very important to make sure they have appropriate follow up.

Dr Nevel: The topic of weight loss in this patient population can be tricky, and I know I talked with Susie in a prior interview about how to approach this topic with our patients in a sensitive and compassionate manner. Once this topic is broached, I find many patients are looking for advice on strategies for weight loss, or potentially medications or other interventions. How do you prioritize or think about the different weight loss strategies or treatments with your patients, and how do you think about the way that you recommend these different treatments or not?

Dr Mollan: Yeah. I think that's a really great question because we sort of stray here into a specialty that we have not been trained in. One thing I definitely ask my patients: if they've been on a weight loss journey before, and what's worked for them and what's not worked for them. And within our different healthcare systems, we have access to different tiers of weight management approaches. But for the person sitting in front of me, that possibly there may be a long journey to access more professional care, it's about understanding. iIs there things that are free, such as, we have some apps in the National Health Service which are weight management applications where they can actually just start putting in their calories, their daily calorie intake. And those apps can be quite helpful and guiding in terms of targeting areas, but also informing the patient of what types of foods to avoid in their diet and what types of foods to include in their diet. And with some of the programs that are completely complementary, they also sometimes add on things about exercise. But I think it is a really difficult thing to manage as, say, an ophthalmologist or a neurologist, mainly because it's not our area of expertise. And I think we've all got to find, in our local hospitals and healthcare systems, those pathways where the patients may be able to access nutritional support, and sort of behavioral lifestyle therapy support, all the way through to the new medications for weight loss; and also for some people, bariatric surgery pathways. It's a tricky topic.

Dr Nevel: So how should we counsel our patients about what to expect in the future in terms of visual outcomes?

Dr Chen: I think a lot of that depends on the degree of papilledema when they present. If a patient comes in with grade five papilledema, that fulminant IIH that Dr Mollan had mentioned, these patients can have very severe vision loss. And even if we treat them very aggressively with high-dose medications and urgent surgical interventions, sometimes they can have permanent vision loss. And so, we counsel them that, you know, there's a strong chance that they're going to have a good amount of vision loss. But some patients, we're very surprised and we get a lot of vision back. So, we kind of set expectations, but we're cautiously optimistic that we can get vision back. If a patient presents with more mild papilledema like grade one or two papilledema, they're most likely not going to have any permanent vision loss as long as we're treating them, we're monitoring their vision, they're coming to their follow-ups. They tend to do very well from a vision perspective.

Dr Nevel: That's great, thank you. And you know, ties into what you said earlier about really making sure that, you know, we create good- as with any patient, but good physician-patient relationships so that they, you know, trust us and they come to follow up so we can really monitor their vision appropriately. What do you think is going on in research in this area that's exciting? What do you think one of the next breakthroughs or thing that we need to understand the most about treatment and monitoring of IIH?

Dr Chen: I think surgically, venous sinus stenting is going to probably take over the bulk of surgeries. We still need that randomized clinical trial, but we have some amazing outcomes with venous sinus stenting. And there's many efforts on randomized clinical trials for venous sinus stenting. So we'll have those results soon. From a medical standpoint, Dr Mollan can actually say, actually, more about this.

Dr Mollan: I completely agree. The GLP-1 receptor agonists, the twofold prong approach: one is the weight loss where these patients, you know, have significant weight loss to put their disease into remission; and the other side of it is whether certain GLP-1s have the ability to reduce intracranial pressure. So, a phase 2 study that we undertook here in Birmingham did show that we were able to reduce intracranial pressure, but we don't think it's a class effect. So, I think the sort of big breakthrough will be looking at novel therapies like xenotide and other drugs that, say, work on the proximal kidney tubule. Are they able to reduce intracranial pressure directly? And I think we are on the cusp of a real breakthrough for this disease.

Dr Nevel: Great. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. And I really learned a lot, appreciated the opportunity. I hope our listeners learned something today, too. So again, today I've been interviewing Drs John Chen and Susan Mollan about their article on treatment and monitoring of idiopathic intracranial hypertension, which appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on disorders of CSF dynamics. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining us today.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Idiopathic intracranial hypertension (IIH) is characterized by symptoms and signs of unexplained elevated intracranial pressure (ICP) in an alert and awake patient. The condition has potentially devastating effects on vision, headache burden, increased cardiovascular disease risk, sleep disturbance, and depression. 

In this episode, Teshamae Monteith, MD, FAAN speaks with Aileen A. Antonio, MD, FAAN, author of the article “Clinical Features and Diagnosis of Idiopathic Intracranial Hypertension” in the Continuum® June 2025 Disorders of CSF Dynamics issue.

Dr. Monteith is the associate editor of Continuum® Audio and an associate professor of clinical neurology at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine in Miami, Florida.

Dr. Antonio is an associate program director of the Hauenstein Neurosciences Residency Program at Trinity Health Grand Rapids and an assistant clinical professor at the Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine in Lansang, Michigan.

Additional Resources

Read the article: Clinical Features and Diagnosis of Idiopathic Intracranial Hypertension

Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum

Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME

Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud

More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com

Social Media

facebook.com/continuumcme

@ContinuumAAN

Host: @headacheMD

Guest: @aiee_antonio

Full episode transcript available here

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast.

Dr Monteith: Hi, this is Dr Teshamae Monteith. Today I'm interviewing Dr Aileen Antonio about her article on clinical features and diagnosis of idiopathic intracranial hypertension, which appears in the June 2025 Continuum issue on disorders of CSF dynamics.  Hi, how are you?

Dr Antonio: Hi, good afternoon.

Dr Monteith: Thank you for being on the podcast.

Dr Antonio: Thank you for inviting me, and it's such an honor to write for the Continuum.

Dr Monteith: So why don't you start off with introducing yourself?

Dr Antonio: So as mentioned, I'm Aileen Antonio. I am a neuro-ophthalmologist, dually trained in both ophthalmology and neurology. I'm practicing in Grand Rapids, Michigan Trinity Health, and I'm also the associate program director for our neurology residency program.

Dr Monteith: So, it sounds like the residents get a lot of neuro-ophthalmology by chance in your curriculum.

Dr Antonio: For sure. They do get fed that a lot.

Dr Monteith: So why don't you tell me what the objective of your article was?

Dr Antonio: Yes. So idiopathic intracranial hypertension, or IIH, is a condition where there's increased intracranial pressure, but without an obvious cause. And with this article, we want our readers---and our listeners right now---to recognize that the typical symptoms and learning about the IIH diagnostic criteria are key to avoiding errors, overdiagnosis, or sometimes even misdiagnosis or underdiagnosis. Thus, we help make the most of our healthcare resources. Early diagnosis and management are crucial to prevent disability from intractable headaches or even vision loss, and it's also important to know when to refer the patients to the appropriate specialists early on.

Dr Monteith: So, it sounds like your central points are really getting that diagnosis early and managing the patients and knowing how to triage patients to reduce morbidity and complications. Is that correct?

Dr Antonio: That is correct and very succinct, yes.

Dr Monteith: And so, are there any more recent advances in the diagnosis of IIH?

Dr Antonio: Yes. And one of the tools that we've been using is what we call the optical coherence tomography. A lot of people, neurologists, physicians, PCP, ER doctors; how many among those physicians are well-versed in doing an eye exam, looking at the optic disc? And this is a great tool because it is noninvasive, it is high resolution imaging technique that allows us to look at the optic nerve without even dilating the eye. And we can measure that retinal nerve fiber layer, or RNFL; and that helps us quantify the swelling that is visible or inherent in that optic nerve. And we can even follow that and monitor that over time. So, this gives us another way of looking at their vision and getting that insight as to how healthy is their vision still, along with the other formal visual tests that we do, including perimetry or visual field testing. And then all of these help in catching potentially early changes, early worsening, that may happen; and then we can intervene more easily.

Dr Monteith: Great. So, it sounds like there's a lot of benefits to this newer technology for our patients.

Dr Antonio: That is correct.

Dr Monteith: So, I read in the article about the increased incidence of IIH, and I have to say that I completely agree with you because I'm seeing so much of it in my clinic, even as a headache specialist. And I had a talk with a colleague who said that the incidence of SIH and IIH are similar. And I was like, there's no way. Because I see, I can see several people with IIH just in one day. That's not uncommon. So, tell me what your thoughts are on the incidence, the rising incidence of IIH; and we understand that it's the condition associated with obesity, but it sounds like you have some other underlying drivers of this problem.

Dr Antonio: Yes, that is correct. So, as you mentioned, IIH tends to affect women of childbearing age with obesity. And it's interesting because as you've seen that trend, we see more of these IIH cases recently, which seem to correlate with that rising rate of obesity. And the other thing, too, is that this trend can readily add to the burden of managing IIH, because not only are we dealing with the headaches or the potential loss of vision, but also it adds to the burden of healthcare costs because of the other potential comorbidities that may come with it, like cardiovascular risk factors, PCOS, and sleep apnea.

Dr Monteith: So why don't we just talk about the diagnosis of IIH?

Dr Antonio: IIH, idiopathic intracranial hypertension, is also called pseudotumor cerebri.  It’s essentially a condition where a person experiences increased intracranial pressure, but without any obvious cause. And the tricky part is that the patients, they're usually fully awake and alert. So, there's no obvious tumor, brain tumor or injury that causes the increased ICP. It's really, really important to rule out other conditions that might cause these similar symptoms; again, like brain tumors or even the cerebral venous sinus thrombosis. Many patients will have headaches or visual disturbances like transient visual obscurations---we call them TVOs---or double vision or diplopia. The diplopia is usually related to a sixth nerve palsy or an abducens palsy. Some may also experience some back pain or what we call pulsatile tinnitus, which is that pulse synchronous ringing in their ears. The biggest sign that we see in the clinic would be that papilledema; and papilledema is a term that we only use, specifically use, for those optic nerve edema changes that is only associated with increased intracranial pressure. So, performing of endoscopy and good eye exam is crucial in these patients. We usually use the modified Dandy criteria to diagnose IIH. And again, I cannot emphasize too much that it's really important to rule out other secondary causes to that increased intracranial pressure. So, after that thorough neurologic and eye evaluation with neuroimaging, we do a lumbar puncture to measure the opening pressure and to analyze the cerebrospinal fluid.

Dr Monteith: One thing I learned from your article, really just kind of seeing all of the symptoms that you mentioned, the radicular pain, but also- and I think I've seen some papers on this, the cognitive dysfunction associated with IIH. So, it's a broader symptom complex I think than people realize.

Dr Antonio: That is correct.

Dr Monteith: So, you mentioned TVOs. Tell me, you know, if I was a patient, how would you try and elicit that from me?

Dr Antonio: So, I would usually just ask the patient, while you're sitting down just watching TV---some of my patients are even driving as this happens---they would suddenly have these episodes of blacking out of vision, graying out of vision, vision loss, or blurred vision that would just happen, from seconds to less than a minute, usually. And they can happen in one eye or the other eye or both eyes, and even multiple times a day. I had a patient, it was happening 50 times a day for her. It's important to note that there is no pain associated with it most of the time. The other thing too is that it's different from the aura that patients with migraines would have, because those auras are usually scintillating and would have what we call the positive phenomena: the flashing lights, the iridescence, and even the fortification that they see in their vision. So definitely TVOs are not the migraine auras. Sometimes the TVOs can also be triggered by sudden changes in head positions or even a change in posture, like standing up quickly. The difference, though, between that and, like, the graying out of vision or the tunneling vision associated with orthostatic hypotension, is that the orthostatic hypotension would also have that feeling of lightheadedness and dizziness that would come with it.

Dr Monteith: Great. So, if someone feels lightheaded, less likely to be a TVO if they're bending down and they have that grain of vision.

Dr Antonio: That is correct.

Dr Monteith: Definitely see patients like that in clinic. And if they have fluoride IIH, I'm like, I'll call it a TVO; if they don't, I’m like, it's probably more likely to be dizziness-related. And then we also have patient migraines that have blurriness that's nonspecific, not necessarily associated with aura. But I think in those patients, it's usually not seconds long, it's usually probably longer episodes of blurriness. Would you agree there, or…?

Dr Antonio: I would agree there, and usually the visual aura would precede the headache that is very characteristic of their migraine, very stereotypical for their migraines. And then it would dissipate slowly over time as well. With TVOs, they're brisk and would not last, usually, more than a minute.

Dr Monteith: So, why don't we talk about routine imaging? Obviously, ordering an MRI, and I read also getting an MRV is important.

Dr Antonio: It is very important because, one: I would say IIH is also a diagnosis of exclusion. We need to make sure that the increased ICP is not because of a brain tumor or not because of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis. So, it's important to get the MRI of the brain as well as the MRV of the head.

Dr Monteith: Do you do that for all patients’ MRV, and how often do you add on an orbital study?

Dr Antonio: I usually do not add on an orbital study because it's not really going to change my management at that point. I really get that MRI of the brain. Now the MRV, for most of my patients, I would order it already just because the population that I see, I don't want to lose them. And sometimes it's that follow-up, and that is the difficult part; and it's an easy add on to the study that I'm going to order. Again, it depends with the patient population that you have as well, and of course the other symptoms that may come with it.

Dr Monteith: So, why don't we talk a little bit about CSF reading and how these set values, because we get people that have readings of 250 millimeters of water quite frequently and very nonspecific, questionable IIH. And so, talk to me about the set value.

Dr Antonio: Right. So, the modified Dandy criteria has shown that, again, we consider intracranial pressure to be elevated for adults if it's above 250 millimeters water; and then for kids if it's above 280 millimeters of water. Knowing that these are taken in the left lateral decubitus position, and assuming also that the patients were awake and not sedated during the measurement of the CSF pressure. The important thing to know about that is, sometimes when we get LPs under fluoroscopy or under sedation, then these can cause false elevation because of the hypercapnia that elevated carbon dioxide, and then the hypoventilation that happens when a patient is under sedation.

Dr Monteith: You know, sometimes you see people with opening pressures a little bit higher than 25 and they're asymptomatic. Well, the problem with these opening pressure values is that they can vary somewhat even across the day. People around 25, you can be normal, have no symptoms, and have opening pressure around 25- or 250; and so, I'm just asking about your approach to the CSF values.

Dr Antonio: So again, at the end of the day, what's important is putting everything together. It's the gestalt of how we look at the patient. I actually had an attending tell me that there is no patient that read the medical textbook. So, the, the important thing, again, is putting everything together. And what I've also seen is that some patients would tell me, oh, I had an opening pressure of 50. Does that mean I'm in a dire situation? And they're so worried and they just attach to numbers. And for me, what's important would be, what are your symptoms? Is your headache, right, really bad, intractable? Number two: are you losing vision, or are you at that cusp where your optic nerve swelling or papilledema is so severe that it may soon lead to vision loss? So, putting all of these together and then getting the neuroimaging, getting the LP. I tell my residents it's like icing on the cake. We know already what we're dealing with, but then when we get that confirmation of that number… and sometimes it's borderline, but this is the art of neurology. This is the art of medicine and putting everything together and making sure that we care and manage it accordingly.

Dr Monteith: Let's talk a little bit about IIH without papilledema.

Dr Antonio: So, let's backtrack. So, when a patient will fit most of the modified Dandy criteria for IIH, but they don't have the papilledema or they don't have abducens palsy, the diagnosis then becomes tricky. And in these kinds of cases, Dr Friedman and her colleagues, when they did research on this, suggested that we might consider the diagnosis of IIH. And she calls this idiopathic intracranial hypertension without papilledema, IIHWOP. They say that if they meet the other criteria for modified Dandy but show at least three typical findings on MRI---so that flattening of the posterior globe, the tortuosity of the optic nerves, the empty sella or the partially empty sella, and even the narrowing of the transverse venous sinuses---so if you have three of these, then potentially you can call these cases as idiopathic intracranial hypertension without papilledema.

Dr Monteith: Plus, the opening pressure elevation. I think that's key, right? Getting that as well.

Dr Antonio: Yes. Sometimes IIHWOP may still be a gray area. It's a debate even among neuro-ophthalmologists, and I bet even among the headache specialists.

Dr Monteith: Well, I know that I've had some of these conversations, and it's clear that people think this is very much overdiagnosed. So, that's why I wanted to plug in the LP with that as well.

Dr Antonio: Right. And again, we have not seen yet whether is, this a spectrum, right? Of that same disease just manifesting differently, or are they just sharing a same pathway and then diverging? But what I want to emphasize also is that the treatment trials that we've had for IIH do not include IIHWOP patients.

Dr Monteith: That is an important one. So why don't you wrap this up and tell our listeners what you want them to know? Now's the time.

Dr Antonio: So, the- again, with IIH, with idiopathic intracranial hypertension, what is important is that we diagnose these patients early. And I think that some of the issues that come into play in dealing with these patients with IIH is that, one: we may have anchoring bias. Just because we see a female with obesity, of reproductive age, with intractable headaches, it does not always mean that what we're dealing with is IIH. The other thing, too, is that your tools are already available to you in your clinic in diagnosing IIH, short of the opening pressure when you get the lumbar puncture. And I need to emphasize the importance of doing your own fundoscopy and looking for that papilledema in these patients who present to you with intractable headaches or abducens palsy. What I want people to remember is that idiopathic intracranial hypertension is not optic nerve sheath distension. So, these are the stuff that you see on neuroimaging incidentally, not because you sent them, because they have papilledema, or because they have new headaches and other symptoms like that. And the important thing is doing your exam and looking at your patients.

Dr Monteith: Today, I've been interviewing Dr Aileen Antonio about her article on clinical features and diagnosis of idiopathic intracranial hypertension, which appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on disorders of CSF dynamics. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues, and thank you to our listeners for joining today. Thank you again.

Dr Antonio: Thank you.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Recently, sophisticated myelographic techniques to precisely subtype and localize CSF leaks have been developed and refined. These techniques improve the detection of various types of CSF leaks thereby enabling targeted therapies.

In this episode, Katie Grouse, MD, FAAN, speaks with Ajay A. Madhavan, MD, author of the article “Radiographic Evaluation of Spontaneous Intracranial Hypotension” in the Continuum® June 2025 Disorders of CSF Dynamics issue.

Dr. Grouse is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a clinical assistant professor at the University of California San Francisco in San Francisco, California.

Dr. Madhavan is assistant professor of radiology at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.

Additional Resources

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Full episode transcript available here

Dr Jones:  This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast.

Dr Grouse:  This is Dr Katie Grouse. Today I'm interviewing Dr Ajay Madhavan about his article on Radiographic Evaluation of Spontaneous Intracranial Hypotension, which he wrote with Dr Levi Chazen. This article appears in the June 2025 Continuum issue on disorders of CSF dynamics. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience.

Dr Madhavan:  Hi, thanks a lot, Katie. Yeah, so I’m Ajay Madhaven. I'm a neuroradiologist at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. I did all my training here, so, I've been here for a long time. And I have a lot of interest in spinal CSF leaks, and I do a lot of that work. And so I'm really excited to be talking about this article with you.

Dr Grouse:  I'm really excited too. And in fact, it's such a pleasure to have you here talking today on this topic. I know a lot's changed in this field, and I'm sure many of our listeners are really interested in learning about the developments and imaging techniques to improve detection and treatment of CSF leaks, especially since maybe we've learned about this in training. I want to start by asking you what you think is the most important takeaway from your article.

Dr Madhavan:  Yeah, that's a great question. I think---and you kind of already alluded to it---I think the main thing is, I hope people recognize that this field has really changed a lot in the last five to ten years, through a lot of multi-institutional collaboration and also collaboration between different specialties. We've learned a lot about different types of spinal CSF leaks, how we can recognize the disease, particularly the types of myelography that we need to be using to accurately localize and treat these leaks. Those are the things that have really evolved in the last five to ten years, and they've really helped us improve these patients’ lives.

Dr Grouse:  Can you remind us of the different common types of spinal leaks that can cause spontaneous intracranial hypotension?

Dr Madhavan:  Yeah, so there are a number of different spinal CSF leaks, types, and I would say the three most common ones that really most people should try to be aware of and cognizant of are: first, ventral dural tears. So those are, like, just physical holes in the dura. And they're usually caused by little bone spurs that come from the vertebral columns. So, they're often patients who have some degenerative changes in their spine. And those are really very common. Another type of spinal CSF leak that we commonly see is a lateral dural tear. So that's like the same thing in a slightly different location. So instead of being in the front, it's off to the side of the dura laterally. And so, it's also just a hole in the dura. And then the third and most recently discovered type of spinal CSF leak is a CSF-venous fistula. So those are direct connections between the subarachnoid space and little paraspinal vein. And it took us a long time to even realize that this was a real pathology. But now that it's been recognized, we've found that this is actually quite common. So those three types of leaks are probably the three most common that we see. And there's certainly others out there, but I would say over 90% of them fall into one of those three categories.

Dr Grouse:  That's a great review, thank you. Just as another quick review, as we talk more about this topic, can you remind us of some of the most common or typical brain imaging findings that you'll see in cases of spontaneous intracranial hypotension?

Dr Madhavan:  Yeah, absolutely. So, when you do a brain MRI in a patient who has spontaneous intracranial hypotension, you will usually, though not always, see typical brain MRI abnormalities. And I kind of think of those as falling into three different categories. So, the first one I think of is dural enhancement or thickening. So that's enlargement or engorgement of the dura, the pachymeninges, and enhancement on postgadolinium imaging. So, that's kind of the first category. The second is that, when you lose spinal fluid volume, other things often expand to take up the space. So, for example, you can get distension or enlargement of the dural venous sinuses, and sometimes you can also get subdural food collections or hematomas. They can arise spontaneously. And I kind of think of those as, you know, you, you've lost the cerebrospinal fluid volume and something else is kind of filling up the space. And then the third category is called brain sagging. And that's a constellation of findings where the posterior fossa structures and the pituitary gland in the cell have become abnormal because you've lost the fluid that normally cushions those structures and causes them to float up. For example, the brain stem will sag down, the distance between the mammillary body and the ponds may become reduced. The suprasellar cistern space may be reduced such that the optic chiasm becomes very close to the pituitary gland, and the prepontine cistern may also become reduced in size. And there are various measurements that can be used to determine whether something is subtly abnormal. But just generally speaking, those are really the three categories of brain MRI abnormalities you'll see.

Dr Grouse:  That was a great review. And of course, I think in many times when we are thinking about or suspecting this diagnosis, we may be lucky to find those imaging findings to reinforce a diagnosis. Because as it turns out, after reading your article, I was really surprised to find out that in as many as 19% of cases we actually see normal brain imaging, which really was a surprise to me, I have to say. And I think that this really encompasses why spontaneous intercranial hypotension is such a difficult diagnosis to make. I think a lot of us struggle with how far to take the workup when, you know, spontaneous intercranial hypotension is clinically suspected, but multiple imaging studies are normal. Do you have any guidance on how to approach these more difficult cases?

Dr Madhavan:  So, that's a really good question. And you know, it's- as you can imagine, that's a topic that comes up in most meetings where people discuss this, and it's been a continued challenge. And so, like you said, about 19 or 20% of patients who have this disease can have a, a normal brain MRI. And we've tried to do some work to figure out why that is and how we can identify patients who still have the disease. And I can just provide, I guess, some tips that have helped me in my clinical practice. One thing is, if I ever see a patient with a normal brain MRI where this disease is clinically suspected---for example, maybe they have orthostatic headaches or other very typical symptoms and we don't know why, but their brain MRI is normal---the first thing I do is I try to look back at their old imaging. So many times, these patients who present to us at Mayo, who, when we do their MRI scan here, their brain MRI looks normal… if you really look back at imaging that they've had done elsewhere---maybe even two to three years prior---at the time their symptoms started, they actually had some abnormalities. So, I might see that a patient, two years ago, had dural enhancement that spontaneously resolved; but now they still have symptoms of SIH and they may still have a CSF leak that we can find and treat, but their brain MRI has, for whatever reason, normalized.

So, I always start by looking back at old imaging, and I found that to be very helpful. The other thing is, if you see a patient with a normal brain MRI, it's also important to look at their spine MRI because that can provide clues that might suggest that they could still have a spinal CSF leak. And the two things I look for on the spine MRI: one, if there's any extradural CSF. So, spinal fluid outside of where it's supposed to be within the confines of the subarachnoid space. And you know, really, if you see extradural CSF, you know they probably have a spinal fluid leak somewhere. Even if their brain MRI is normal, that just gives you the information that there is a dural tear probably somewhere. And so, in those patients we’ll definitely still proceed to myelography or other testing, even if they have a normal brain MRI. And then the last thing I look for is whether or not they have prominent meningeal diverticula. Patients with CSF venous fistulas almost always have one or more prominent diverticula on their spine along the nerve root sleeves. And that's probably because most of these fistulas come from nerve root sleeve diverticula. We don't completely understand the pathogenesis of CSF venous fistulas, but they're clearly associated with meningeal diverticula. So, if I see a patient who has a normal brain MRI, but I see on their spine MRI that they have many meningeal diverticula that are relatively prominent, that makes me more inclined to be a little bit more aggressive in doing myelography to find a CSF leak. And then I look at other demographic features, too. So, for example, elevated BMI and older age are associated with CSF venous fistulas. So, that can help you determine whether or not it's warranted to go on to more advanced imaging, too. So those are all just a variety of different things that we've used to help us.

Dr Grouse:  Thank you for sharing that. I wanted to go on to say that, you know, reading your article, of course, as you mentioned, you alluded to the fact there's lots of new imaging modalities out there. It was very illuminating and just an excellent resource for the options that exist and when they're useful. You did a great job summarizing it. And I encourage our readers to check out your article, to refresh themselves, update themselves on what's happened in this space. And of course, we can't summarize them all today, but I was wondering if you could possibly walk us through a hypothetical case of a patient who comes in with a history very suspicious for SIH? How would you approach this patient? Say you have gotten imaging that suggested that there is a spinal fluid leak and now you have to figure out where it is.

Dr Madhavan:  Yeah. So, you know, I think the most typical scenario it'll be a patient who has been seen by one of my excellent neurology colleagues and they've done a brain MRI and they've made the diagnosis through a combination of clinical information and brain MRI finding. And then the next thing we'll do always is, we'll obtain a spine MRI. So, I think of the purpose of the spine MRI as to determine what type of spinal fluid leak they have. On the spine MRI, if you see extradural CSF, those patients essentially always will have a dural tear. And it may be a ventral dural tear or a lateral dural tear. But if you see extradural CSF, that is pretty much what they have. And conversely, if you don't see extradural CSF---if you just see, for example, many meningeal diverticula, but you don't see anything else particularly abnormal---most of those patients have a CSF venous fistula, just common things being common.

So I use the spine MRI to determine what type of leak they have. And then the next thing I think about is, okay, I'm going to do a myelogram on this patient. How do I want to position them? Because it turns out that positioning is probably the most important factor for finding these spinal fluid leaks. You have to have the patient positioned correctly to find the leak that you're trying to localize. And so, if I suspect they have a ventral dural tear, I will always position those patients prone for their myelogram. And I might do one of many different types of myelograms. And, you know, the article talks about things like digital subtraction myelography and dynamic CT myelography. And you can find any of these leaks with any of those techniques, but you just have to have the patient positioned correctly. So, if I think I have a ventral dural tear, I’ll put them prone for the myelogram. If I think they have a lateral dural tear, I'll put them in the cubitus position for the myelogram. And also, if they- if I think they have a CSF-venous fistula, I'll also put them in the decubitus position. Obviously if you're putting them in the decubitus position, you have to decide whether it's going to be left or right side down. So that may require a two-day exam. Sometimes you don't have to; in many cases, we're able to just do everything in one day. But those are all the different factors I think about when I'm trying to determine how I'm going to work those patients up further. So, I really use the spine MRI chiefly to think about what type of leak they're going to have and how I'm going to plan the myelogram.

Dr Grouse:  That's really great. And it's, I think, really nice to emphasize how much the positioning matters in all this, which I think is not something we've been classically taught as far as the diagnosis of spinal leaks. Another thing I'm really interested in your opinion on is, you talked a lot about how to optimize and what can make you successful at diagnosis. I'm curious what you think one of the easiest mistakes to make or, you know, that we should hopefully avoid when treating patients with this disease.

Dr Madhavan:  Yeah. And I think, you know, one other thing that's been discussed a lot in this topic… you know, we've talked about the patients with a normal brain MRI. Another barrier or challenge particularly with CSF-venous fistulas is, sometimes they can be very subtle on imaging. So, it's not always you see it very definitive CSF-venous fistula where you can say, like, there's no question, that's a fistula. There are many times where we do a good-quality myelogram and we see something that looks, like, possible for a CSF venous fistula, or probable. If I had to put a number on it, maybe there's a 50 to 70% chance of real. So, in those cases, we end up wondering, like, should we treat this suspected leak? And I think one common mistake  or one thing that needs to be looked at further is, how do we handle these patients where we don't know whether the fistula is real or not? That's usually something where I will have a discussion with the patient, and I'm usually just very upfront with him about my interpretation of the imaging. I'll just tell them, we did a good-quality myelogram. You did a great job. We got good images. I don't see anything definitive, but I see this thing that I think has maybe a 60% chance of being real. And then I'll confer with one of my neurology colleagues and we'll decide whether it's worth treating that or not. And we'll just be very upfront with a patient about whether- about the likelihood of its success and what their long-term prognosis is. And oftentimes we let them make the decision. But I think that remains to be one of the big challenges is, how do we treat these patients who have suspected leaks that are not definitive on imaging.

Dr Grouse:  That sounds absolutely like an important area where there can be problems, so I appreciate that insight. I'm interested what you think in your article would come as the biggest surprise to our listeners who may not have kept up as much with all of the changes that have happened in recent years?

Dr Madhavan:  One of the things that was certainly, at least, a surprise to me as I was going through my training and learning about this topic is how diverse myelography has really become. You know, when I was a radiology resident, I learned about myelography as this thing that we've been doing for 30 to 40 years. And historically we've used myelograms just to look for degenerative changes: disc bulges, you know, disc herniations and things like that. Now that MRI is more prevalent, we don't use it as much, but it has turned out that it has a very big role in patients with spinal fluid leaks. Furthermore, something that I've learned is just how diverse these different types of myelograms have become. It used to kind of be just that a myelogram is a myelogram is a myelogram, but now we have different types of positioning, different types of equipment that we use. We vary the timing between contrast injection and imaging to optimize success for finding spinal fluid leaks. So, I think many times I talk to people who may not be as familiar with this field and they're surprised at just how diverse that has become and how sophisticated some of the various myelographic techniques have become and how much that really makes a difference in being able to accurately diagnose these patients.

Dr Grouse:  Well, I can say it was a surprise to me. Even as someone who does treat quite a few patients with this condition, I was surprised to see the breadth of different options that have become available. And then kind of a follow-up to that, what do you think the current area of controversy is in this area of diagnosis and treatment?

Dr Madhavan:  The biggest ones are ones you've sort of already alluded to. So, one big one is, how far do we go in patients who have a normal brain MRI who still have a clinical suspicion of the disease? And sometimes it's really hard, because sometimes you will find patients who clinically have a very strong case for having spontaneous intracranial hypotension. You look at them, they have very acute-onset orthostatic headaches. There's no better explanation for their symptoms that we know of. And it's hard to know what to do with those patients, because some of them want to continue to undergo diagnostic workup, but you can only do so many myelograms and you can only do so much with this diagnostic workup that requires some radiation dose before it becomes very challenging. That's a major point of just, I guess, ongoing research as to what can we do better for that subset of patients. Fortunately, it's not all of them, it's a subset of them, but I think we could help those patients better in the future as we learn more about the disease. So that's one. And the other one is treating these equivocal findings, like I discussed.  And where should our threshold be to treat a patient, and what type of treatment should we do in patients where we don't know whether a leak is real? Should we just do a very noninvasive- relatively noninvasive blood patch? Do we do an embolization where we're leaving a foreign body there? Is it worth sending those patients to surgery? Those are all unanswered questions and things that continue to spark ongoing debate.

Dr Grouse:  Do you think that there's going to be any new big breakthroughs, or even, do you know of any big developments on the horizon that we should be keeping our eyes out for?

Dr Madhavan:  You know, I think for me the biggest thing is, imaging is dramatically improving. We talked a little bit about photon counting detector CT in our article, and that's one of the newest and best techniques for imaging these patients because it has very, very high resolution, it has a lower radiation dose, it has allowed us to find leaks that we were not able to find before. And there are other high-resolution modalities that are emerging and becoming more accessible to things like cone beam CT which we do in addition to digital subtraction myelography. And on top of that, we've started to use AI-based tools to make images look a lot better. So, there are various AI algorithms that have come out that allow us to remove artifacts from imaging. They help us image patients with a bigger body habitus better without running into a lot of imaging artifacts. They help us reduce noise in imaging. They can just give us better-quality images and aid us in the diagnosis. For me as a radiologist, those are some of the most exciting things. We're finding less invasive ways with less radiation to better diagnose these patients with just better-quality imaging.

Dr Grouse:  Well, that is definitely something to be excited about. So, I just want to thank you so much for talking with us today. It's been such an interesting, informative discussion and a real privilege to talk with you about this important topic.

Dr Madhavan:  Yeah, thanks so much. I really appreciate the time to talk with you, and I look forward to seeing the article out there and hopefully getting some interesting questions.

Dr Grouse:  Again, today I've been interviewing Dr Ajay Madhavan about his article on Radiographic Evaluation of Spontaneous Intracranial Hypotension, which he wrote with Dr Levi Chasen. This article appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on disorders of CSF dynamics. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues, and thank you to our listeners for joining today.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Spontaneous intracranial hypotension reflects a disruption of the normal continuous production, circulation, and reabsorption of CSF. Diagnosis requires the recognition of common and uncommon presentations, careful selection and scrutiny of brain and spine imaging, and, frequently, referral to specialist centers.

 In this episode, Gordon Smith, MD, FAAN speaks with Jill C. Rau, MD, PhD, author of the article “Clinical Features and Diagnosis of Spontaneous Intracranial Hypotension” in the Continuum® June 2025 Disorders of CSF Dynamics issue.

Dr. Smith is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a professor and chair of neurology at Kenneth and Dianne Wright Distinguished Chair in Clinical and Translational Research at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia.

Dr. Rau is an assistant professor of clinical neurology at the University of Arizona, School of Medicine-Phoenix in Phoenix, Arizona.

Additional Resources

Read the article: continuumjournal.com

Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum

Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME

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More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com

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Host: @gordonsmithMD

Full episode transcript available here

Interview with Jill Rau, MD

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast.

Dr Smith: This is Dr Gordon Smith. Today I'm interviewing Dr Jill Rau about her article on clinical features and diagnosis of spontaneous intracranial hypotension, which she wrote with Dr Jeremy Cutsworth-Gregory from the Mayo Clinic. This article appears in the 2025 Continuum issue on disorders of CSF dynamics. I'm really excited to welcome you to the Continuum podcast. Maybe you can start by just telling our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Dr Rau: Hi, thanks for having me. I'm really honored to be here, and I really enjoyed writing the paper with Dr Cutsforth-Gregory. I hope you guys enjoy it. I am the director of headache medicine at the Baba Bay Neuroscience Institute at Honor Health in Scottsdale, Arizona. I'm also currently the chair of the special interest group in CSF Dynamics at the American Headache Society, and I've had a special interest in this field since I first watched Dr Linda Gray speak at a conference where she talked about spinal CSF leaks and their different presentations. And they were so different than what I had been taught in residency. They're not just the post-LP headache. They have such a wide variety of presentations and how devastating they can be, and how much impact there is on someone's life when you find it and fix it. And I've been super interested in the field and involved in research since that time. And, yeah. Love it.

Dr Smith: Well, thanks for sharing your story. And as I reflected on our conversation ahead of time and have been thinking about this issue… this is a cool topic, and every time I read one of these manuscripts and have the opportunity to speak with one of the authors, I learn a ton, because this was something that wasn't even on the radar when I trained back in the 1800’s. So, really looking forward to the conversation. I wonder if you could really briefly just summarize or remind for everyone the normal physiology about CSF dynamics, you know, production, absorption, and so forth?

Dr Rau: So, the CSF is the fluid that surrounds the brain and the spinal cord, and it's contained by the dura, which is like a canvas or a sac that covers that whole brain and spinal cord. And within the ventricles of the brain, the choroid plexus produce CSF. It's constantly producing and then being reabsorbed by the arachnoid granulations and pushed into the venous space, the cerebral sinuses, venous sinuses. And also some absorption and push into the lymphatics that we've just learned about in the past year. This is kind of new data coming out, so always learning more and more about CSF, but we know that it bathes the brain and the spinal cord, helps keep some buoyancy of the brain as well as pushing nutrients in and pulling out metabolic waste. And it sort of keeps the brain in the state of homeostasis that's happy. And so, when there's a disruption of that flow and the amount of fluid there, that disrupts that, that can cause lots of different symptoms and problems for people.

Dr Smith: One of the many new things I learned is that even the name of this---spontaneous intracranial hypotension---is misleading. And I think this is clinically relevant, as we'll probably get to in a moment, but can you talk a little bit about this? Is this really like a pressure disorder or a volume disorder?

Dr Rau: Yeah. It's almost certainly a volume disorder. We do see in some people that they have low pressure, and it’s still part of the diagnostic criteria. But it's there because if you have a low pressure, if you measure an opening pressure and it's below six, if you're measuring it in the spine in the right place, then you have indication that there's low volume. But there's over 50% of people's opening pressure who have a spinal CSF leak, have all the symptoms and can be fixed. So, they have normal pressure in 50% of the people. So, it is an inaccurate term, hypotension, but it was originally discovered because of the thought that it was a low-pressure situation. Some of the findings would suggest low pressure, but ultimately, we are pretty sure it's a low-volume condition.

Dr Smith: Another new thing that I learned that really blew me away is how bad this can be. I did a podcast with Mark Burish about cluster, and I was reminded many cluster patients are pushed to the point of suicidal ideation or committing suicide by the severity of pain. And this sounds like for many patients it's equally severe. Can you maybe paint a picture for our listeners why this is so clinically important?

Dr Rau: A large number of people, even people who are known to have leaks because they've had them before or they've releaked, they have a lot of brain fog and cognitive impairment. They often have severe headaches when they're upright. So, orthostatic headache is probably the number one most common symptom, and those headaches are one of the worst headaches out there. When people stand up, their fluid is not supporting the brain and there's an intense amount of pain. And so, they spend a large portion of their lives horizontal. And there's associated symptoms with that, it's not just headache pain and brain fog. There's neck pain. There's often subsequent disorders that accompany this, like partial orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. We don't know if that's because of deconditioning or an actual sequela of the disease, but it's a frequent comorbidity. We have patients that have extreme dizziness with their symptoms, but many patients are limited to hours, if that, upright per day, combined, total. And so they live their lives, often, just in the dark, lots of photophobia, sensitive to the light, really unable to function. It's also very hard to find and so underrecognized that a lot of patients, especially if they don't have that really clinical symptom of orthostatic headache. So, it's often missed. So, they're just debilitated. You know, treatments don't work because it's not a migraine and it's not a typical headache. It's a mechanical issue as well as a metabolic issue and not found, not a lot helps it.

Dr Smith: So, you know, I have always thought about this as really primarily an orthostatic symptom. I wonder if you can talk about the complexity of this; in particular, kind of how this evolves over time, because it's not quite that simple. And maybe in doing so, you can give our listeners some pearls on when they should be thinking about this disorder?

Dr Rau: A large portion of people do have headache with spinal CSF leak, in particular, spontaneous intracranial hypertension- hypotension, excuse me. And that's something to be thought about, is that there are spontaneous conditions where people have either rupture of the dural sac, or an erosion of the dural sac, or a development of a connection between the dura and the venous system. And that is taking away or allowing CSF to escape. In these instances that patients have spontaneous, there may be a different presentation than if they have, like, a postdural puncture or a chronic traumatic or iatrogenic leak. And we're not sure of that yet, but we're looking into that. Still, the largest presentation is headache, and orthostatic headache is very dominant in the headache realm. But over time, patients’ brains can compensate for that lack of CSF and start overproducing---or at least we think that's probably what's happening. And you may see a reduction in the orthostatic symptoms over time, and you may see an improvement in the radiographic findings. So, there are some interesting papers that have been published that look at these changes over time, and we do see that sometimes within that first three to four months; this is the most common time to see that change. Other patients may worsen. You may actually see someone going from looking sort of normal radiographically to developing more of a SIH-type of picture on the brain. And so it's not predictable which patients have gone from orthostatic to improvement or the other way around, both radiographically and clinically.

So, it can be quite difficult to tell. So, for me, if I have a patient that comes to me and they're struggling with headache… if it's orthostatic, very clearly orthostatic: I lay down, I get considerably better or my headache completely goes away. And then when I stand up, it comes on relatively quickly, within an hour. And sometimes it's a worsening-throughout-the-day type of thing, it's lowest in the morning and it worsens throughout the day. These are the times that it's most obvious to think about CSF leak. Especially if that headache onset relatively suddenly, if it onset after a small trauma. Like I've had patients that say, you know, I was doing yoga and I did some twists and I felt kind of a pop. And then I've had this headache that is horrible when I'm upright but is better when I lay down ever since, you know, since that time. That's kind of a very classic presentation of spinal CSF leak or spontaneous intracranial hypotension. Maybe a less common presentation would be someone who comes to you, they've had a persistent headache for a couple years, they kind of remember it started in March of a couple years ago, but they don't know. Maybe it's, you know, it's a little better when they lay down. It may be a little worse when they're up moving around, but so is migraine, and it's a migrainous headache. But they've tried every migraine drug you can think of. Nothing is responding, nothing helps. I'm always looking at patients who are new daily, persistent headaches and patients who aren't responding to meds even if it's not new daily, but they have just barely any response. I will always go back and examine their brain imaging and get full spine to make sure I'm not missing. And you can never be 100% sure, but it's always good to consider those patients to the best of your ability, if that- have that in the back of your mind.

Dr Smith: So obviously, goes without saying, this is something people need to have on their radar and think about. And then we'll talk more about diagnostic tools here in a second. But how common is this? If you're a headache doc, you see a lot of patients who have intractable headaches. And how often do you see this in your headache practice? Now you’re- this is your thing, so probably a little more than others, but, you know, how common will someone who sees a lot of headache encounter these patients?

Dr Rau: If you see a lot of headache, I mean, currently the thought is it's about 5 in 100,000. That was from a study before we were finding CSF venous fistulas. I think a lot of us think it's more common than that, but it's not super common. We don't have good estimates, but I would guess between 5 and 10 for 100,000 persons, not “persons who come to a tertiary headache clinic with intractable headaches”. So, it's hard to gauge how frequent it is, but I would say it's considerably more frequent than we currently think it is. There's still a group of people with orthostatic headaches that we can't find leaks on; that, once you treat other things that can cause or look for other things that can cause orthostatic headaches. So, there may be even still a pathophysiology out there that is still a leak type. Before 2014, we didn't even know about CSF venous fistulas. And now here we are; like, 50% of them are CSF venous fistulas. So, you know, we're still in a huge learning curve right now.

Dr Smith: So, I definitely want to talk about the fistulas in a second. But before moving on, one of the things that I found really interesting is the wide spectrum of clinical phenotype. And we obviously don't have a lot of time to get into all of these different ones, but the one that I was hoping you might talk about---and there's a really great case, and you're on bunch of great case, a great case of this---is brain sagging dementia, not a term I've used before. Can you really briefly just tell our listeners about that, because that's a really interesting story and a great case in your article?

Dr Rau: Yeah. So, brain sag dementia is a… almost like an extreme version of a spontaneous intracranial hypotension. Where there is clear brain sag in the imaging---so that's helpful---but the patients present kind of like a frontotemporal dementia. And when this was first started to being determined, you could turn the patient into Trendelenburg, and sometimes they would improve. There are some practitioners that have introduced fluid into the thecal sac and had temporary improvement. Patching has improvement, then they leak again, sometimes  not. But the clinical changes with this have been pretty tremendous to be able to identify that that's a real thing. And in some cases, out of Cedars Sinai, you know, who does a lot of the best research in this, they've had lots of cases where they can't find the leak, but there's clear brain sag that fits with our clinical picture of CSF leaks. So, we're on a learning curve. But yeah, this- they really present. They have disinhibition and cognitive impairment that is very similar to frontotemporal dementia.

Dr Smith: Well, so let's talk about what causes this. You mentioned CSF venous fistulas. I mean, that was reported now just over a decade ago, it's pretty amazing. That accounts for about half of cases, if I understand correctly. What are the other causes? And then we'll talk more about therapy in a minute, but what causes this?

Dr Rau: So, within the realm of spontaneous, you know, we say it's spontaneous. But the spontaneous cases we account for, they can be tears in the dura, which are usually sort of lateral tears in the dura. They can be little places that rubbed a hole, often on an osteophyte from the spine. They can come from these spinal diverticuli. So, I always describe it to my patients like those balls that have mesh and squishy, and you squeeze them in the- through the mesh, there's the extra little bubbling out. If you think of like the dura bubbling, out in some cases, through the framing of the spine, right where the spinal nerve roots come out, they should poke out like wires from the dura. But in many cases they poke out with this extra dura surrounding them, and we call that spinal diverticuli. And if you imagine like the weakening of where you squeeze that, you know, balloon through your fingers, in those locations, that's a very common place to find a CSF leak, and you can imagine that the integrity of the dura there may be less than it would be if it were not being expanded in that direction. And that's often the most common place we see these CSF venous fistulas.

So, you can get minor traumas; like I said, it can be spontaneous, like someone just develops a leak one day. It can be rubbed off, and it can be a development of a connection between the dura and the venous system. There are also iatrogenic causes, but we don't consider them spontaneous. But when you're considering your patients for spontaneous cases, you should consider if they've ever had chronic---even long, long time ago---had any spinal implementation, procedures near the spine, spinal injections, LPs in the past, and especially women who've had epidurals in pregnancy.

Dr Smith: All right, so we see a patient, positional severe headache, who meets the clinical criteria. Next step, MRI scan?

Dr Rau: Yeah. So, the first thing is always to get the brain MRI with and without contrast. Most places will have a SIH or a spinal CSF leak protocol, but you should get contrast because one of the most pathognomonic findings on brain MRI is that smooth diffuse dural enhancement. And that's a really fantastic thing when you find it, because it's kind of a slam dunk. If you find it, then you will see other findings. It almost never exists alone. But if you see that, it's pretty much a spinal CSF leak. But you're also looking for subdural collections, any indication of brain sag. We do have these new algorithms that have come out in the past couple of years that are helpful. They're not exclusionary---you can have negative findings on the brain and still have spinal CSF leak---but the brain MRI is extremely helpful. If it's positive for the findings, it really does help you nudge you in the direction of further investigations and treatments.

Dr Smith: And what about those further investigations and treatments, right? So, you see that there's findings consistent with low pressure, and I guess I should say low intracranial CSF volume. Be that as it may, what's the next step after that?

Dr Rau: Depends on where you are and what you can do. I almost always will get a full spine MRI: so, C spine, T spine, and L spine separately. Not, you know, we don't want it all in one picture, because we want to get the full view. And you want to get that with at least T2 highly- heavily T2 weighted with fat saturation in at least the sagittal and axial planes. It's really helpful if you can get it in the coronal planes, but we have to have- often have good talks with your radiologist to get the coronal plane. I spoke about the spinal diverticuli earlier, and I want to clarify a little bit of something. The coronal image will show those really nicely. It's interesting, but 44% of people have those. So just having the spinal diverticuli does not indicate that you have a leak. But if you have a lot of those, there may be more likelihood of having leak than if you don't have any of those.

So, I will get all of those and I will look at them myself, but I've been looking at them myself for a long time. But a lot of radiologists in community hospitals, especially not- nonneuroradiologists, but even neuroradiologists, this isn't something that's that everybody's been educated about, and we've been learning so much about it so rapidly in the past ten years. It's not easy to do and it's often missed. And if it's not protocoled properly, the fat saturation's not there, it's very hard to see… you can have a leak and not see it. Even the best people, like- it's not always something that's visible. And these CSF venous fistulas that we talked about are never visible on normal MRI imaging. Nonetheless, I will run those because if I can find a leak---and 90% of the ones that are found on MRI imaging are in the thoracic spine. So that's where I spend the most of my time looking. But if you find it, that's another thing to take to your team to say, hey, look, here it is, let's try and do this, or, let's try and do that, or, I've got more evidence. And there are other findings on the spine; not just the leak, but other findings, sometimes, you can see on spine that maybe help you push you towards, yes, this is probably a leak versus not.

Dr Smith: So, your article has a lot of great examples and detail about kind of advanced imaging to, like, find the fistula and what not. I guess I'm thinking most of our listeners are probably practicing in a location where they don't have a team that really focuses on that. So, let's say we do the imaging of the spine and you don't find a clear cause. Is the next step to just do a blood patch? Do you send them to someone like you? What's the practical next step?

Dr Rau: Yeah, if your- regardless of whether you find a leak or not, if your clinical acumen is such that you think this patient has a leak or I've treated them for everything else and it's not working and I have at least a high enough suspicion that I think the risk of getting a patch is lower than the benefit that if they got a patch and it worked, I do send my patients for non-directed blood patches, because it currently does take a long time to get them to a center that can do CT myelograms or any kind of advanced imaging to look for sort of a CSF venous fistula or to get treated outside of a nondirected patch. You know, sometimes nondirected patches are beneficial for patients, and there's some good papers out there that sort of explain the low risks of doing these if done properly versus the extreme benefit for patients when it works. And, I mean, I can't tell you how many people come in and tell me how their lives are changed because they finally got a blood patch. And sometimes it works. And it’s life-changing for those people. You know, they go back to work. They can interact with their kids again. Before, they didn't know what was wrong, just had this headache that started. So it's worth doing if you have a strong clinical suspicion.

Dr Smith: Yeah. I mean, that was great. And, you know, to go back to where we began, this is severe. It's something like 60% of patients with this problem have thought about suicide, right? And you take this patient and cure the problem. I feel really empowered having read the article and talked to you today. And so, I'm ready to go out and look for this. Thank you so much for a really engaging conversation. This has been terrific.

Dr Rau: Thank you. I appreciate it. I enjoyed being here.

Dr Smith: Again, today I've been interviewing Dr Jill Rau about her article on clinical features and diagnosis of spontaneous intracranial hypotension---which I guess I should say hypovolemia after having talked to you---which she wrote with Dr Jeremy Cutsworth-Gregory. This article appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on disorders of CSF dynamics. Please be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this really interesting issue and other interesting issues. And thank you, our listeners, again for listening to us today.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

In this episode, Lyell K. Jones Jr, MD, FAAN, speaks with Jeremy K. Cutsforth-Gregory, MD, FAAN, who served as the guest editor of the June 2025 Disorders of CSF Dynamics issue. They provide a preview of the issue, which publishes on June 2, 2025.

Dr. Jones is the editor-in-chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology® and is a professor of neurology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.

Dr. Cutsforth-Gregory is an associate professor in the department of neurology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.

Additional Resources

Read the issue: continuumjournal.com

Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum

Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud

More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com

Social Media

facebook.com/continuumcme

@ContinuumAAN

Host: @LyellJ

Guest: @JCGneuro

Full episode transcript available here

Interview with Jeremy Cutsforth-Gregory, MD

Dr Jones: Most of the time when neurologists think about cerebrospinal fluid or CSF, we're thinking about getting a sample so we can test it for biomarkers of infection or inflammation, tumors, more recently neurodegenerative diseases. But there are many patients for whom the CSF isn't a clue to the problem---it is the problem. Today I have the opportunity to interview Dr Jeremy Cutsforth-Gregory, who is the guest editor of our first-ever issue at Continuum on disorders of CSF dynamics.

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about subscribing to the journal, listening to verbatim recordings of the articles, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast.

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology. Today I'm interviewing Dr Jeremy Cutsforth-Gregory, who recently served as Continuum's guest editor for our latest issue, which covers disorders of CSF dynamics. Dr Cutsforth-Gregory is an associate professor in the Department of Neurology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, where he's also the director of the Mayo Clinic CSF Dynamics Clinic and an assistant dean of career advising at the Mayo Clinic School of Medicine. Dr Cutsforth-Gregory, welcome, and thank you for joining us today. Why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners?

Dr Cutsforth-Gregory: Thank you so much, Dr Jones. I'm excited to be here and really privileged to have served as the guest editor for this first issue devoted to CSF dynamics. You mentioned my title as director of the CSF Dynamics Clinic, in which we brought together what we think of as the full spectrum of disorders where pressure or flow of the fluid around the central nervous system is off. So, we do CSF leaks, we do intracranial hypertension and normal pressure hydrocephalus, and from that have been able to gain quite a few insights that I'm excited to share with you today.

Dr Jones: Yeah. And I'm really grateful for your time. I'm really grateful for this issue. You know, we all learn about disorders of CSF flow in training, but my impression---and maybe you share it, Dr Cutsforth-Gregory---is that many of these patients fall through the cracks. I think there's probably many reasons for this. I think it's in part because some aspects of this practice are relatively new or they're changing rapidly, or some of the disorders are uncommon. And I think many of these require a high degree of coordination between neurologists and neurosurgeons and radiologists. So we thought a Continuum issue dedicated to this would help close some practice gaps that we're pretty confident are out there. I'm really grateful for your leadership of it, and I think it'll come in handy for junior readers and even our more experienced listeners as well. And let's get right to it. You've had a chance now to review all of the articles in the issue and, you know, the latest in the field. What's the biggest thing that you would like to see change in the care of these patients?

Dr Cutsforth-Gregory: I think you're right that there is often delay in diagnosis, incorrect diagnosis, misdiagnosis, really across the spectrum of the low pressure, high pressure and normal pressure disorders. And that's what I'd like to see change with this issue, is increased awareness of the really myriad presentations that spontaneous intracranial hypotension can have. It's not all orthostatic headache, although that's common. Similarly, idiopathic intracranial hypertension is misdiagnosed in a third or more cases presenting to ophthalmology clinics. So, it's not just papilledema, high pressure in a certain demographic. And I think the article by Dr Aileen Antonio really goes into the details on how to make an accurate diagnosis and not miss these and not mistreat them. And normal pressure hydrocephalus, the pendulum has really swung between whether this is an entity or isn't an entity. It is. It's patients we can help. The imaging findings are surprisingly common, and the disorder is probably somehow both overcalled on CT scans of the head---cannot rule out normal pressure hydrocephalus, clinical correlation required, we've all seen that report---but also missed opportunities to help patients who have treatable gait, cognitive and bladder disorders. So, if we could improve awareness and increase the accuracy of diagnosis on these three disorders, I will say the mission has really been moved forward.

Dr Jones: Thanks for that. Let's start with NPH because again, over my career, I have seen the pendulum swing back and forth in terms of awareness of this disorder and thresholds for diagnosis. What's our latest in terms of the understanding of normal pressure hydrocephalus and how should our listeners think about the approach to diagnosing these patients?

Dr Cutsforth-Gregory: I think we all learn that NPH is dementia, gait disorder and urinary incontinence, and that hasn't changed. A good chunk of these patients, perhaps half or more, don't have the full triad, and you do not have to have the full triad for the diagnosis or to justify intervention with permanent CSF diversion through shunt placement. And so, being open to the diagnosis in a patient with a gate apraxia, which is usually the first leading present presenting change which is a gait disorder. Cognitive changes follow that, bladder comes along the way. So, I think anytime you see someone with an unexplained gait disorder that has apraxic features, short steps, three steps to turn, can look a little Parkinsonian but you don't have other Parkinsonism on exam necessarily, we should be thinking about NPH and ordering a good-quality head imaging to look for those features.

Dr Jones: Yeah, thanks for that point, Jeremy. It does seem like the pendulum has swung back and forth on the diagnosis of this disorder. And I think in many ways it comes down to having good diagnostic biomarkers. A term that I know… I was only made aware of it a few years ago: disproportionately enlarged subarachnoid space hydrocephalus, or DESH. So, tell us a little bit more about that. It's not just about the ventricles, right?

Dr Cutsforth-Gregory: That's exactly right. So, we think hydrocephalus, that means ventriculomegaly, and it does, but DESH, as you said, the mouthful “disproportionately enlarged subarachnoid space hydrocephalus”, is basically CSF accumulation around the brain outside the ventricles. Common features would be enlarged Sylvian fissures, focally dilated sulci, and then at the same time, up high on the convexity, tight sulci. So, it's this combination; there's clearly a flow problem where CSF is being trapped in certain areas outside the brain and excluded from others. And that is a common feature. And that alone predicts a positive response to shunt surgery.

Dr Jones: I remember the first time one of my colleagues pointed that out to me on an image, and it just made me wonder how many times I had missed it before that point in my career. But that's the point, is to learn and move forward. One of the common themes, I think, in this practice, one of the common themes in this issue, is the interdisciplinary work that's necessary not just for treating patients with CSF dynamics disorders, but also the diagnosis. We really do have to work carefully and closely with neurosurgeons and with radiologists. And to reflect that we had a pretty diverse group of authors. Moreso, I think, that we usually do for Continuum, given the overlap with the radiology and surgical practice. As you were reviewing these articles, were there any unique or distinctive perspectives that you saw come through?

Dr Cutsforth-Gregory: Absolutely. And I have to say, I'm so proud of the diverse author panel we were able to put together: as you said, including clinicians, but also neuroradiologists; neurosurgeons, both adult and pediatric; as well as a couple- an ENT surgeon to talk about those cranial skull base leaks. So, we really brought together what we think is necessary to take care of these patients. As far as unique perspectives here, I would point to the article on diagnosis, surgical treatment, the long term implications of atraumatic cranial CSF leaks. So, these are the patients who present with CSF otorrhea or rhinorrhea and do not have a history of skull base surgery or trauma to explain it. That is often a chronic intracranial hypertension patient who, instead of staying sealed up and building up pressure and presenting with papilledema and headaches, had a leak. And that's relevant because, after it’s fixed, that patient needs to come to us in neurology to be monitoring for papilledema, measure lumbar puncture, open pressure. And we've developed that as part of our workflow with our colleagues in neurosurgery and ENT who seal those leaks, because that's a patient who is at high risk of recurrent leak if we don't treat the underlying high pressure disorder. That's a new concept, I think, for many of us. And so, to be able to put that front and center in an article, in an issue for practicing neurologists, I think, is really important, and it's something we haven't been able to do before.

Similarly, the article by Dr Olga Fermo on the treatment of persistent symptoms after normalization of CSF pressure. We've all taken care of patients who had a CSF leak or had hypertension, and it seems like those issues are resolved, and yet they still have headaches. The IIH treatment trial taught us that that happens in perhaps two thirds of patients with IIH. And so, to have Dr Fermo's article on how to help those patients manage the headaches when the CSF disorder seems to have been resolved, I think it's super useful. The last one I would mention is just the final one by Dr Shenandoah Robinson, a pediatric neurosurgeon, talking about child onset hydrocephalus. And so, NPH is the focus of most of those other articles. But the patients who we will take care of as adult neurologists, child neurologists, whose issue really started early on, it’s important that we stay involved and how to do that, what things we should be watching for, when to suspect shunt malfunction, it’s all covered in Dr Robinson's article, and it’s a unique one for this issue.

Dr Jones: It's always interesting to read articles, as a neurologist, that are written by a neurosurgeon because, you know, they have a different perspective, right? T're intervening on the anatomy, and just hearing how they think about these things was illuminating for me. The article on atraumatic cranial skull base CSF leaks, that connection with intracranial hypertension, I was unaware of that. So that was a good learning point for me. And while we're still on the too-high-pressure problem of idiopathic intracranial hypertension, do we have any more insight into what causes that? What's the mechanism of that disease? Do we know any more than we used to?

Dr Cutsforth-Gregory: We know more than we used to. We certainly don't understand all of it. But rather than just a disease of reproductive-age women carrying extra weight, it is now recognized as, really, a metabolic and hormonal-driven condition. And it's relevant because it really highlights new ways to intervene and to treat these patients. The GLP-1 inhibitors may have a role, considering some of the comorbidities like polycystic ovary syndrome and the hormonal connections. The patients who perhaps are female-to-male trans, who then can present with intranial hypertension, and how we can help them without needing to take them off gender confirming hormone therapy, is all really relevant to help us help more patients by having that broader understanding of the cause of disease, that it’s not just weight gain/weight loss.

Dr Jones: Fantastic, and very useful to know. Thinking of the other end of the spectrum, right, rather than too much CSF or too much CSF pressure… I know this has been a focus of your academic work, Dr Cutsforth-Gregory. We also have disorders of CSF hypotension where the pressure is too low, and that this is usually reflective of a dural defect. I know in my own practice, sometimes, these are very difficult to find, and that's really- as you said, diagnosis is the first step, but then we have to find the problem and try to direct surgeons where to go to repair it. Do you have any tips for our listeners on how to approach the hunt for the source of CSF leaks?

Dr Cutsforth-Gregory: Absolutely. And I first have to give a call out to my mentor, Dr Bahram Mokri, who is the one who first reported the diffuse sterile enhancement, back in the early 1990s, that marks some, but not all, patients with spontaneous intracranial hypotension. He would also remind me that that's not a good term to call it, even though I just did and I will continue to do it intermittently. Because really, this is an underlying spinal CSF leak or a CSF venous fistula. And the problem is not too-low pressure, which is why hypotension is probably not the best word, but too-low volume. It's intracranial CSF hypovolemia. You know, with the opportunity that Dr Mokri gave me to see some of those patients with him and become intrigued by it, it is the bulk of my clinical practice, my research focus, and the conversations I get to have every single day with neuroradiologists and neurosurgeons. I tell patients, it is a field that is moving incredibly quickly and that, when I see them again in a few months or the next year, for whatever reason, I always joke and I say, I reserve the right to have different recommendations, because it is moving. I finished residency in 2014, which is the year CSF fistulas were first reported. I'm sure they existed before that. So, it was a lack of awareness. And so, look for what you know. Now we know to look for fistulas. You find what you look for; we've developed a number of new myographic techniques to find these things, and they are now the majority of the type of leak that we find. So, it is a patient population where we were missing more than we were hitting ten years ago. And now maybe that's still true, but we're certainly finding a lot more than we used to because of those collaborations.

Dr Jones: Thinking back to DESH, right? Once you're aware that it is something that can be identified, you start to see it more and more. And again, that's how we move the field forward. And again, the CSF venous fistula story is one that I know was relatively new to me and something I learned a lot about reading through the issue. And hopefully our readers and our listeners find some insights and benefits there. This is a rapidly changing field. This may be a hard question to answer, but when you look into the future, what are some of the changes on the horizon in this practice?

Dr Cutsforth-Gregory: See, I'll probably point to the- both diagnosis and treatment. We're recognizing that it's, like I said earlier, not all orthostatic headache, but some of the other manifestations, such as frontotemporal brain sagging syndrome, can be a manifestation of leak. So, suspected leak is the first step. Then you have to look for it. And MRI will change, you know, incrementally, I'm sure; we'll get higher resolution pictures. But the C wave of change is going to be in how to do the myelogram, what imaging modality we use; and the newest kit on the block, if you will, is photon-counting detector CT myelography. That's a different kind of CT scanner than we've been used to over the last few decades. It detects light energy differently. It allows better signal-to-noise ratio, faster acquisition of scans. And so, using that allows us to get thinner slices through the spine to look for leaks and fistulas. I think photon CT will become more widespread because it has applications well beyond neurology and just myelograms.

And so, as those scanners become more available, everyone will get to be better at finding these leaks. And then treatment, I'll highlight a procedure called transvenous paraspinal vein embolization. You know, a CSF venous fistula is an abnormal connection between a nerve root sleeve and a vein. And the CSF is escaping up through the that vein in an unregulated fashion. And historically when those were found, the treatment was to ligate the nerve root. Get rid of the nerve root sleeve, you get rid of the abnormal connection, you get rid of the vein, you stop the leak. And that is effective. A number of studies have shown that. But it's also invasive; it requires a laminectomy and losing a nerve root. You can't do that at every level of the spine, right? This is predominantly thoracic, and only if you're away from the artery of Adamkiewicz. But a few years ago, Dr Walid Benjigchi pioneered a procedure of going through the vein and embolizing it, putting in a liquid embolic agent that seals it off. The nerve root stays attacked. We can do it at every level of the spine, and it's an outpatient, endovascular procedure to fix fistulas. That kind of minimally invasive procedure for fistulas has been a major shift away from the open surgeries. We will, I think, make advances with new catheters and new needles to be able to do some other kind of minimally invasive procedures for the other kinds of leaks. I think that's what we'll be seeing, is less and less invasive procedures on the leak side.

Dr Jones: Great summary there. Thank you. So, it sounds like a combination of hopefully improved clinician awareness, which will improve diagnostic recognition; more sensitive tools like the photon counting CTS; and less invasive definitive therapies, which I think is promising for the field. And you've led a lot of that work, Dr Cutsforth-Gregory, over the last few years. When you see these patients, I'm sure it's rewarding to see patients with previously poorly-recognized or misunderstood symptoms get better. Is that the most rewarding part of this practice for you, or what can you tell me about your experience in the care of these patients?

Dr Cutsforth-Gregory: You know, I'm a curious person. I like to learn. So, I will say it is really rewarding to develop a new technique and put it into practice and see it increase our hit rate on finding these leaks and helping these patients. But nothing beats the feeling of taking a patient who's been stuck in bed or saying that they can't function and they're out of work or out of their family life, and getting that Christmas card or that hug that says they're back. But, you know, we're here to help our patients, and nothing can beat that feeling.

Dr Jones: I think that's a great point to end on. Dr Cutsforth-Gregory, thank you for joining us. Thank you for such a detailed discussion of a broad, diverse topic. I learned a lot today---some things that I wasn't aware of, having read the issue---and hopefully our listeners did, too.

Dr Cutsforth-Gregory: Thank you so much, Dr Jones.

Dr Jones: Again, we've been speaking with Dr Jeremy Cutsforth-Gregory, Guest Editor of Continuum's first-ever issue focusing on CSF dynamics. Please check it out. And thank you to our listeners for joining today.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

As artificial intelligence (AI) tools become increasingly mainstream, they can potentially transform neurology clinical practice by improving patient care and reducing clinician workload. Critically evaluating these AI tools for clinical practice is important for successful implementation.

In this episode, Katie Grouse, MD, FAAN speaks with Peter Hadar, MD, MS, coauthor of the article “Clinical Applications of Artificial Intelligence in Neurology Practice” in the Continuum® April 2025 Neuro-ophthalmology issue.

Dr. Grouse is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a clinical assistant professor at the University of California San Francisco in San Francisco, California.

Dr. Hadar is an instructor of neurology at Harvard Medical School and an attending physician at the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts.

Additional Resources

Read the article: Clinical Applications of Artificial Intelligence in Neurology Practice

Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum

Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud

More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com

Social Media

facebook.com/continuumcme

@ContinuumAAN

Guest: @PeterNHadar

Full episode transcript available here

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about subscribing to the journal, listening to verbatim recordings of the articles, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast.

Dr Grouse: This is Dr Katie Grouse. Today I'm interviewing Dr Peter Hadar about his article on clinical applications of artificial intelligence in neurology practice, which he wrote with Dr Lydia Moura. This article appears in the April 2025 Continuum issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience.

Dr Hadar: Hi, thanks for having me on, Katie. My name is Dr Peter Hadar. I'm currently an instructor over at Mass General Hospital, Harvard Medical School, and I'm excited to talk more about AI and how it's going to change our world, hopefully for the better.

Dr Grouse: We're so excited to have you. The application of AI in clinical practice is such an exciting and rapidly developing topic, and I'm so pleased to have you here to talk about your article, which I found to be absolutely fascinating. To start, I'd like to hear what you hope will be the key takeaway from your article with our listeners.

Dr Hadar: Yeah, thank you. The main point of the article is that AI in medicine is a tool. It's a wonderful tool that we should be cautiously optimistic about. But the important thing is for doctors, providers to be advocates on their behalf and on behalf of their patients for the appropriate use of this tool, because there are promises and pitfalls just with any tool. And I think in the article we detail a couple ways that it can be used in diagnostics, in clinical documentation, in the workflow, all ways that can really help providers. But sometimes the devil is in the details. So, we get into that as well.

Dr Grouse: How did you become interested in AI and its application, specifically in the practice of neurology?

Dr Hadar: When I was a kid, as most neurologists are, I was- I nerded out on a lot of sci-fi books, and I was really into Isaac Asimov and some of his robotics, which kind of talks about the philosophy of AI and how AI will be integrated in the future. As I got into neurology, I started doing research neurology and a lot of folks, if you're familiar with AI and machine learning, statistics can overlap a lot with machine learning. So slowly but surely, I started using statistical methods, machine learning methods, in some of my neurology research and kind of what brought me to where I am today.

Dr Grouse: And thinking about and talking about AI, could you briefly summarize a few important terms that we might be talking about, such as artificial intelligence, generative AI, machine learning, etcetera?

Dr Hadar: It's a little difficult, because some of these terms are nebulous and some of these terms are used in the lay public differently than other folks would use it. But in general, artificial intelligence is kind of the ability of machines or computers to communicate independently. It’s similar to as humans would do so. And there are kind of different levels of AI. There's this very hard AI where people are worried about with kind of terminator-full ability to replicate a human, effectively. And there are other forms of narrow AI, which are actually more of what we're talking about today, and where it's very kind of specific, task-based applications of machine learning in which even if it's very complex, the AI tools, the machine learning tools are able to give you a result. And just some other terms, I guess out there. You hear a lot about generative AI. There's a lot of these companies and different algorithms that incorporate generative AI, and that usually kind of creates something, kind of from scratch, based on a lot of data. So, it can create pictures, it can create new text if you just ask it. Other terms that can be used are natural language processing, which is a big part of some of the hospital records. When AI tools read hospital records and can summarize something, if it can translate things. So, it turns human speech into these results that you look for. And I guess other terms like large language models are something that also have come into prominence and they rely a lot on natural language processing, being able to understand human speech, interpret it and come up with the results that you want.

Dr Grouse: Thank you, that's really helpful. Building on that, what are some of the current clinical applications of AI that we may already be using in our neurologic practice and may not even be aware that that's what that is?

Dr Hadar: It depends on which medical record system you use, but a very common one are some of the clinical alerts that people might get, although some of them are pretty basic and they can say, you know, if the sodium is this level, you get an alert. But sometimes they do incorporate fancier machine learning tools to say, here's a red flag. You really should think about contacting the patient about this. And we can talk about it as well. It might encourage burnout with all the different flags. So, it's not a perfect tool. But these sorts of things, typically in the setting of alerts, are the most common use. Sorry, and another one is in folks who do stroke, there are a lot of stroke algorithms with imaging that can help detect where the strokes occur. And that's a heavy machine learning field of image processing, image analysis for rapid detection of stroke.

Dr Grouse: That's really interesting. I think my understanding is that AI has been used specifically for radiology interpretation applications for some time now. Is that right?

Dr Hadar: In some ways. Actually, my background is in neuroimaging analysis, and we've been doing a lot of it. I've been doing it for years. There's still a lot of room to go, but it's really getting there in some ways. My suspicion is that in the coming years, it’s going to be similar to how anesthesiologists at one point were actively bagging people in the fifties, and then you develop machines that can kind of do it for you. At some point there's going to be a prelim radiology read that is not just done by the resident or fellow, but is done by the machine. And then another radiologist would double check it and make sure. And I think that's going to happen in our lifetime.

Dr Grouse: Wow, that's absolutely fascinating. What are some potential applications of AI in neurologic practice that may be most high-yield to improve patient care, patient access, and even reduce physician burnout?

Dr Hadar: These are separate sort of questions, but they're all sort of interlinked. I think one of the big aspects of patient care in the last few years, especially with the electronic medical record, is patients have become much more their own advocates and we focus a lot more on patient autonomy. So, they are reaching out to providers outside of appointments. This can kind of lead to physician burnout. You have to answer all these messages through the electronic medical record. And so having, effectively, digital twins of yourself, AI version of yourself, that can answer the questions for the patient on your off times is one of the things that can definitely help with patient care. In terms of access, I think another aspect is having integrated workflows. So, being able to schedule patients efficiently, effectively, where more difficult patients automatically get one-hour appointments, patients who have fewer medical difficulties might get shorter appointments. That's another big improvement. Then finally, in terms of physician burnout, having ambient intelligence where notes can be written on your behalf and you just need to double-check them after allows you to really have a much better relationship with the patients. You can actually talk with them one on one and just focus on kind of the holistic care of the patient. And I think that's- being less of a cog in the machine and focusing on your role as a healer would be actually very helpful with the implementation of some of these AI tools.

Dr Grouse: You mentioned ambient technology and specifically ambient documentation. And certainly, this is an area that I feel a lot of excitement about from many physicians, a lot of anticipation to be able to have access to this technology. And you mentioned already some of the potential benefits. What are some of the potential… the big wins, but then also potential drawbacks of ambient documentation?

Dr Hadar: Just to kind of summarize, the ambient intelligence idea is using kind of an environmental AI system that, without being very obtrusive, just is able to record, able to detect language and process it, usually into notes. So, effectively like an AI scribe that is not actually in the appointment. So, the clear one is that---and I've seen this as well in my practice---it's very difficult to really engage with the patient and truly listen to what they're saying and form that relationship when you're behind a computer and behind a desk. And having that one-on-one interaction where you just focus on the patient, learn everything, and basically someone else takes notes for you is a very helpful component of it.

Some of the drawbacks, though, some of it has to do with the existing technology. It's still not at the stage where it can do everything. It can have errors in writing down the medication, writing down the exact doses. It can't really, at this point, detect some of the apprehensions and some of the nonverbal cues that patients and providers may kind of state. Then there's also the big one where a lot of these are still done by startups and other companies where privacy may be an issue, and a lot of patients may feel very uncomfortable with having ambient intelligence tools introduced into their clinical visit, having a machine basically come between the doctor and the patient. But I think that over time these apprehensions will lessen. A lot of the security will improve and be strengthened, and I think that it's going to be incorporated a lot more into clinical practice.

Dr Grouse: Yeah, well, we'll all be really excited to see how that technology develops. It certainly seems like it has a lot of promise. You mentioned in your article a lot about how AI can be used to improve screening for patients for certain types of conditions, and that certainly seems like an obvious win. But as I was reading the article, I couldn't help but worry that, at least in the short term, these tools could translate into more work for busy neurologists and more demand for access, which is, you know, already, you know, big problems in our field. How can tools like these, such as, like, for instance, the AI fundoscopic screening for vascular cognitive risk factors help without adding to these existing burdens?

Dr Hadar: It's a very good point. And I think it's one of the central points of why we wanted to write the article is that these AI in medicine, it's, it's a tool like any other. And just like when the electronic medical record came into being, a lot of folks thought that this was going to save a lot of time. And you know, some people would say that it actually worsened things in a way. And when you use these diagnostic screening tools, there is an improvement in efficiency, there is an improvement in patient care. But it's important that doctors, patients advocate for this to be value-based and not revenue-based, necessarily. And it doesn't mean that suddenly the appointments are shorter, that now physicians have to see twice as many patients and then patients just have less of a relationship with their provider. So, it's important to just be able to integrate these tools in an appropriate way in which the provider and the patient both benefit.

Dr Grouse: You mentioned earlier about the digital twin. Certainly, in your article you mentioned, you know, that idea along with the idea of the potential of development of virtual chatbot visits or in-person visits with a robot neurologist. And I read all this with equal parts, I think excitement, but horror and and fear. Can you tell us more about what these concepts are, and how far are we from seeing technology like this in our clinics, and maybe even, what are the risks we need to be thinking about with these?

Dr Hadar: Yeah. So, I mean, I definitely think that we will see implementation of some of these tools in our lifetime. I'm not sure if we're going to have a full walking, talking robot doing some of the clinical visits. But I do think that, especially as we start doing a lot more virtual visits, it is very easy to imagine that there will be some sort of video AI doctor that can serve as, effectively, a digital twin of me or someone else, that can see patients and diagnose them. The idea behind the digital twin is that it's kind of like an AI version of yourself. So, while you only see one patient, an AI twin can go and see two or three other patients. They could also, if the patients send you messages, can respond to those messages in a way that you would, based on your training and that sort of thing. So, it allows for the ability to be in multiple places at once.

One of the risks of this is, I guess, overreliance on the technology, where if you just say, we're just going to have a chatbot do everything for us and then not look at the results, you really run the risk of the chatbot just recommending really bad things. And there is training to be had. Maybe in fifty years the chatbot will be at the same level as a physician, but there's still a lot of room for improvement. I personally, I think that my suspicion as to where things will go are for very simple visits in the future and in our lifetime. If someone is having a cold or something like that and it goes to their primary care physician, a chatbot or something like that may be of really beneficial use. And it'll help segment out the different groups of simple diagnosis, simple treatments can be seen by these robots, these AI, these machine learning tools; and some of the more complex ones, at least for the early implementation of this will be seen by more specialized providers like neurologists and subspecialist neurologists too.

Dr Grouse: That certainly seems reasonable, and it does seem that the more simple algorithmic things are always where these technologies will start, but it'll be interesting to see where things can go with more complex areas. Now I wanted to switch gears a little bit in the article- and I thought this was really important because I see it as being certainly one of the bigger drawbacks of AI, is that despite the many benefits of artificial intelligence, AI can unfortunately perpetuate systemic bias. And I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about how this happened?

Dr Hadar: I know I'm beating a dead horse on this, but AI is a tool like any other. And the problem with it is that what you put in is very similar to what you get out. And there's this idea in computer science of “garbage in, garbage out”. If you include a lot of data that has a lot of systemic biases already in the data, you're going to get results that perpetuate these things. So, for instance, if in dermatologic practices, if you just had a data set that included people of one skin color or one race and you attempted to train a model that would be able to detect skin cancer lesions, that model may not be easily applicable to people of other races, other ethnicities, other skin colors. And that can be very damaging for care. And it can actually really, really hurt the treatments for a lot of the patients.

So that is one of the, kind of, main components of the systemic biases in AI. The way we mitigate them is by being aware of it and actually implementing, I guess, really hard stops on a lot of these tools before they get into practice. Being sure, did your data set include this breakdown of sex and gender, of race and ethnicity? So that the stuff you have in the AI tool is not just a very narrow, focused application, but can be generalized to a large population, not just of one community, one ethnic group, racial group, one country, but can really be generalized throughout the world for many patients.

Dr Grouse: The first step is being aware of it, and hopefully these models will be built thoughtfully to help mitigate this as much as possible. I wanted to ask as well, another concern about AI is the safety of private data. And I'm wondering, as we're starting to do things like use ambient documentation, AI scribe, and other types of technologies like this, what can we tell our patients who are concerned about the safety of their personal data collected via these programs, particularly when they're being stored or used with outside companies that aren't even in our own electronic medical records system?

Dr Hadar: Yeah, it's a very good question, and I think it's one of the major limitations of the current implementation of AI into clinical practice, because we still don't really have great standards---medical standards, at least---for storing this data, how to analyze this data. And my suspicion is that at some point in the future, we're going to need to have a HIPAA compliance that's going to be updated for the 21st century, that will incorporate the appropriate use of these tools, the appropriate use of these data storage, of data storage beyond just PHI. Because there's a lot more that goes into it. I would say that the important thing for how to implement this, and for patients to be aware of, is being very clear and very open with informed consent. If you're using a company that isn't really transparent about their data security and their data sharing practices, that needs to be clearly stated to the patient. If their data is going to be shared with other people, reanalyzed in a different way, many patients will potentially consider not participating in an AI implementation in clinic. And I think the other key thing is that this should be, at least initially, an opt-in approach as opposed to an opt-out approach. So patients really have- can really decide and have an informed opinion about whether or not they want to participate in the AI implementation in medicine.

Dr Grouse: Well, thank you so much for explaining that. And it does certainly sound like there's a lot of development that's going to happen in that space as we are learning more about this and the use of it becomes more prevalent. Now, I also wanted to ask, another good point that you made in your article---and I don't think comes up enough in this area, but likely will as we're using it more---AI has a cost, and some of that cost is just the high amount of data and computational processing needed to use it, as well as the effects on the environment from all this energy usage. Given this drawback of AI, how can we think about potential costs versus the benefits, the more widespread use of this technology? Or how should we be thinking about it?

Dr Hadar: It's part of a balance of the costs and benefits, effectively, is that AI---and just to kind of name some of them, when you have these larger data centers that are storing all this data, it requires a lot of energy consumption. It requires actually a lot of water to cool these things because they get really hot. So, these are some of the key environmental factors. And at this point, it's not as extreme as it could be, but you can imagine, as the world transitions towards an AI future, these data centers will become huge, massive, require a lot of energy. And as long as we still use a lot of nonrenewable resources to power our world, our civilization, I think this is going to be very difficult. It's going to allow for more carbon in the atmosphere, potentially more climate change.

So, being very clear about using sustainable practices for AI usage, whether it be having data centers specifically use renewable resources, have clear water management guidelines, that sort of thing will allow for AI to grow, but in a sustainable way that doesn't damage our planet. In terms of the financial costs… so, AI is not free. However, on a given computer, if you want to run some basic AI analysis, you can definitely do it on any laptop you have and sometimes even on your phone. But for some of these larger models, kind of the ones that we're talking about in the medical field, it really requires a lot of computational power. And this stuff can be very expensive and can get very expensive very quickly, as anyone who's used any of these web service providers can attest to. So, it's very important to be clear-eyed about problems with implementation because some of these costs can be very prohibitive. You can run thousands and you can quickly rack up a lot of money for some very basic analysis if you want to do it in a very rapid way, in a very effective way.

Dr Grouse: That's a great overview. You know, something that I think we're all going to be having to think about a lot more as we're incorporating these technologies. So, important conversations I hope we're all having, and in our institutions as we're making these decisions. I wanted to ask, certainly, as some of our listeners who may be still in the training process are hearing you talk about this and are really excited about AI and implementation of technology in medicine, what would you recommend to people who want to pursue a career in this area as you have done?

Dr Hadar: So, I think one of the important things for trainees to understand are, there are different ways that they can incorporate AI into their lives going forward as they become more seasoned doctors. There are clinical ways, there are research ways, there are educational ways. A lot of the research ways, I'm one of the researchers, you can definitely incorporate AI. You can learn online. You can learn through books about how to use machine learning tools to do your analysis, and it can be very helpful. But I think one of the things that is lacking is a clinician who can traverse both the AI and patient care fields and be able to introduce AI in a very effective way that really provides value to the patients and improves the care of patients. So that means if a hospital system that a trainee is eventually part of wants to implement ambient technology, it's important for physicians to understand the risks, the benefits, how they may need to adapt to this. And to really advocate and say, just because we have this ambient technology doesn't mean now we see fifty different patients, and then you're stuck with the same issue of a worse patient-provider relationship. One of the reasons I got into medicine was to have that patient-provider interaction to not only be kind of a cog in the hospital machine, but to really take on a role as a healer and a physician. And one of the benefits of these AI tools is that in putting the machine in medicine, you can also put the humanity back in medicine at times. And I think that's a key component that trainees need to take to heart.

Dr Grouse: I really appreciate you going into that, and sounds like there's certainly need. Hoping some of our listeners today will consider careers in pursuing AI and other types of technologies in medicine. I really appreciate you coming to talk with us today. I think this is just such a fascinating topic and an area that everybody's really excited about, and hoping that we'll be seeing more of this in our lives and hopefully improving our clinical practice. Thank you so much for talking to us about your article on AI in clinical neurology. It was a fascinating topic and I learned a lot.

Dr Hadar: Thank you very much. I really appreciate the conversation, and I hope that trainees, physicians, and others will gain a lot and really help our patients through this.

Dr Grouse: So again, today I've been interviewing Dr Peter Hadar about his article on clinical applications of artificial intelligence in neurology practice, which he wrote with Dr Lydia Moura. This article appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on neuro-ophthalmology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Neuro-ophthalmic deficits significantly impair quality of life by limiting participation in employment, educational, and recreational activities. Low-vision occupational therapy can improve cognition and mental health by helping patients adjust to visual disturbances.

In this episode, Katie Grouse, MD, FAAN, speaks with Sachin Kedar, MD, FAAN, author of the article “Symptomatic Treatment of Neuro-ophthalmic Visual Disturbances” in the Continuum® April 2025 Neuro-ophthalmology issue.

Dr. Grouse is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a clinical assistant professor at the University of California San Francisco in San Francisco, California.

Dr. Kedar is the Cyrus H Stoner professor of ophthalmology and a professor of neurology at Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia.

Additional Resources

Read the article: Symptomatic Treatment of Neuro-ophthalmic Visual Disturbances

Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum

Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME

Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud

More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com

Social Media

facebook.com/continuumcme

@ContinuumAAN

Guest: @AIIMS1992

Full episode transcript available here

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast.

Dr Grouse: This is Dr Katie Grouse. Today I'm interviewing Dr Sachin Kedar about his article on symptomatic treatment of neuro-ophthalmic visual disturbances, which appears in the April 2025 Continuum issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience.

Dr Kedar: Thank you, Katie. This is Sachin Kedar. I'm a neuro-ophthalmologist at Emory University, and I've been doing this for more than fifteen years now. I trained in both neurology and ophthalmology, with a fellowship in neuro-ophthalmology in between. It's a pleasure to be here.

Dr Grouse: Well, we are so happy to have you, and I'm just so excited to be discussing this article with you, which I found to be a real treasure trove of useful clinical information on a topic that many find isn't covered enough in their neurologic training. I strongly recommend all of our listeners who work with patients with visual disturbances to check this out. I wanted to start by asking you what you hope will be the main takeaway from this article for our listeners?

Dr Kedar: The most important takeaway from this article is, just keep vision on your radar when you are evaluating your patients with neurological disorders. Have a list of a few symptoms, do a basic screening vision, and ask patients about how their vision is impacting the quality of life. Things like activities of daily living, hobbies, whether they can cook, dress, ambulate, drive, read, interact with others. It is very important for us to do so because vision can be impacted by a lot of neurological diseases.

Dr Grouse: What in the article do you think would come as the biggest surprise to our listeners?

Dr Kedar: The fact that impairment of vision can magnify and amplify neurological deficits in a lot of what we think of as core neurological disorders should come as a surprise to most of the audience.

Dr Grouse: On that note, I think it's probably helpful if you could remind us about the types of visual disturbances we should be thinking about and screening for in our patients?

Dr Kedar: Patients who have neurological diseases can have a whole host of visual deficits. The simplest ones are deficits of central vision. They can have problems with their visual field. They can have abnormalities of color vision or even contrast sensitivity. A lot of our patients also complain of light sensitivity, eyes feeling tired when they're doing their usual stuff. Some of our patients can have double vision, they can have shaky vision, which leads to their sense of imbalance and maybe a fall risk to them.

Dr Grouse: It's really helpful to think about all the different aspects in which vision can be affected, not just sort of the classic loss of vision. Now, your article also serves as a really important reminder, which you alluded to earlier, about how impactful visual disturbances can be on daily activities. Could you elaborate a little further on this, and particularly the various domains that can be affected when there are visual disturbances present?

Dr Kedar: So, when I look at how visual disturbances affect quality of life, I look at two broad categories. One is activities of basic daily living. These would be things like, are you able to cook? Are you able to ambulate not just in your home, but in your neighborhood? Are you able to drive to your doctor's appointment or to visit with your family? Are you able to dress yourself appropriately? Are you able to visualize the clothing and choose them appropriately? And then the second category is recreational activities. Are you able to read? Are you able to watch television? Are you able to visit the theatre? Are you able to travel? Are you able to participate in group activities, be it with your family or be it with your social group? It is very important for us to ask our patients if they have problems doing any of this because it really can adversely impact the quality of life.

Dr Grouse: I think, certainly with all the things we try to get through talking with our patients, this may not be something that we do spend a lot of time on. So, I think it's it is a good reminder that when we can, being able to ask about these are going to be really important and help us hit on a lot of other things we may not even realize or know to ask about. Now, I was really struck when I was reading your article by the meta-analysis that you had quoted that had showed 47% higher risk of developing dementia among the visually impaired compared to those without visual impairments. Should we be doing more in-depth visual testing on all of our patients with cognitive symptoms?

Dr Kedar: This is actually the most interesting part of this article, and kind of hones in on the importance of vision in neurological disorders. Now I want to clarify that patients with visual disorders, it's not a causative influence on dementia, but if you have a patient with an underlying cognitive disorder, any kind of visual disturbance will significantly make it worse. And this has been shown in several studies, both in the neurologic and in the ophthalmological literature. So, I quoted one of the big meta-analysis over there, but studies have clearly shown that if you have these patients and treat them for their visual deficits, their cognitive indices can actually significantly improve.

To answer your question, I would say a neurologist should include basic vision screening as part of every single evaluation. Now, I know it's a hard thing in, you know, these days when we are literally running on the hamster wheel, but I can assure you that it won't take you more than 2 to 3 minutes of your time to do this basic screening; in fact, you can have one of your assistants included as part of the vital signs assessment. What are these basic screening tools? Measure the visual acuity for both near and distance. Check and see if their visual field’s off with the confrontation. Look at their eye movements. Are they able to move their eyes in all directions? Are the eyes stable when they're trying to fixate on a particular point? I think if you can do these basic things, you will have achieved quite a bit.

Dr Grouse: That's really helpful, and thanks for going through some of the standard, or really, you know, solid basic foundation of visual testing we should be thinking about doing. I wanted to move on to some more details about the visual disturbances. You made an excellent point that there are many types of primary ophthalmologic conditions that can cause visual disturbances that we should keep in mind. So maybe not things that we think about a lot on a day-to-day basis, but, you know, are still there and very common. What are some of the most common ones, and when should we be referring them to see an ophthalmologist?

Dr Kedar: So, it depends on the age group of your patient population. Now, the majority of us are adult neurologists, and so the kinds of ophthalmic conditions that we see in this population is going to be different from the pediatric age group. So in the adult population, we might see patients with uncorrected refractive error, presbyopia, patients who have cataracts creep on them, they may have glaucoma, they may have macular degeneration, and these tend to have a slightly higher incidence in the older age group. Now for those of us who are taking care of the younger population, uncorrected refractive errors, strabismus and amblyopia tend to be fairly common causes of visual deprivation in this age group.

What I would encourage all of our neurologists is, make sure that your patients get a basic eye examination at least once a year. Just like you want them to go to their primary care and get an annual maintenance visit, everybody should go to the ophthalmologist or the optometrist and get a basic examination. And, if you're resourceful enough, have your patients bring a copy of that assessment. Whether it is normal or there's some abnormality, it is going to help you in the management.

Dr Grouse: Absolutely. I think that's a great piece of advice, to think of it almost, like, them seeing their primary care doctor, which of course we offer encourage our patients to do, thinking of this as another very important piece of standard primary care. If a patient comes to you reporting difficulty reading due to possible visual disturbances, I'm curious, can you walk us through how you would approach this evaluation?

Dr Kedar: It is not a very common presenting complaint of our patients, even in the neuro-ophthalmology clinic. It's a very rare patient that I see who comes and says, I cannot read or, I have difficulty reading. Most of the patients will come saying, oh, I cannot see. And then you have to dig in to find out, what does that actually mean? What can you not see? Is it a problem in your driving? Is it a problem in your reading? Or is it a problem that occurs at all times? Now you asked me, how do you approach this evaluation? One of the things that all of us, whether we are neurologists, ophthalmologists, or neuro-ophthalmologists, forget to do is to actually have the patient read a paragraph, a sentence, when they are in clinic. And that will give you a lot of ideas about what might actually be going wrong with the patient.

Now, as far as how do I approach this evaluation, I will do a basic screening examination to make sure that their visual acuity is good for both distance and near. A lot of us tend to do either distance or near and we will miss the other parameter. You want to do a basic confrontation visual field to make sure that they do not have any subtle deficits that's impacting their ability to read. Examine the eye movements, do a fundoscopic examination. Now, once you've done this basic screening, as a neurologist, you already have some idea of whether your patient has a lesion along the visual pathways. If you suspect that this is a problem with, say, the visual pathways, ask your ophthalmology colleague to do a formal visual field assessment, and that'll pick up subtle deficits of central visual field.

And lastly, don't forget higher visual function testing or cortical visual function testing. So basically, you're looking for neglect, phenomenon, or simultanagnosia, all of which tends to have an impact on reading. So, in the manuscript I have a schema of how you can approach a patient with reading difficulties, and in that ischemia you will see categories of where things can go wrong during the process of reading. And if you can approach your patient systematically through one of those domains, there's a fairly good chance that you'll be able to pick up a problem.

Dr Grouse: Going a little further on to when you do identify problems with loss of central or peripheral vision, what are some strategies for symptomatic management of these types of visual disturbances?

Dr Kedar: As a neurologist, if you pick up a problem with the vision, you have to send this patient to an eye care provider. The vast majority of people who have visual disturbances, it’s from an eye disease. You know, as I alluded to earlier, it can be something as simple as uncorrected refractive error, and that can be fixed easily. A lot of patients in our older age group will have dry eye syndrome, which means they are unable to adequately lubricate the surface of the eye, and as a result, it degrades the quality of their vision. So, they tend to get intermittent episodes of blurred vision, or they tend to get glare. They tend to get various forms of optical aberration. Patients can have cataracts, patients can have glaucoma or macular degeneration. And in all of those instances, the goal is to treat the underlying disease, optimize the vision, and then see what the residual deficit is. By and large, if a patient has a problem with the central vision, then magnification will help them for activities that they perform at near; say, reading.

Now for patients with peripheral vision problem, it's a different entity altogether. Again, once you've identified what the underlying cause is, your first goal is to treat it. So, for example, if your patient has glaucoma, which is affecting peripheral vision, you're going to treat glaucoma to make sure that the visual field does not progress. Now a lot of what happens after that is rehabilitation, and that is always geared towards the specific activities that are affected. Is it reading? Is it ambulating? Is it watching television? Is it driving? And then you can advise as a neurologist, you can advise your occupational therapist or low vision specialist and say, hey, my patient is not able to do this particular activity. Can we help them?

Dr Grouse: Moving on from that, I wanted to also hit on your approach when patients have disorders of ocular motility. What are some things you can do for symptomatic management of that?

Dr Kedar: So, patients with ocular motility can have two separate symptoms. Two, you know, two disabling symptoms, as they would call it. One is double vision and the other is oscillopsia, or the feeling or the visualization of the environment moving in response to your eyes not being able to stay still. Typically, you would see this in nystagmus. Now, let's start with diplopia. Diplopia is a fairly common presenting complaint for neurologists, ophthalmologists, and the neuro-ophthalmologist. The first aspect in the management of diplopia is to differentiate between monocular diplopia and binocular diplopia. Now, monocular diplopia is when the double vision persists even after covering one eye. And that is never a neurological issue. It's almost always an ophthalmic problem, which means the patient will then have to be assessed by an eye care provider to identify what's causing it. And again, refractive error, cataracts, opacities, they can do it.

Now, if the patient is able to see single vision by covering one eye at a time, that's binocular diplopia. Now, in patients with binocular diplopia in the very early stages of the disease, the standard treatment regimen is just monocular occlusion. Cover one eye, the diplopia goes away, and then give it time to improve on its own. So, this is what we would typically do in a patient with, say, acute sixth nerve palsy or fourth nerve palsy or third nerve palsy, maybe expect spontaneous improvement in a few months. Now if the double vision does not improve and persists long term, then the neuro-ophthalmologist or the ophthalmologist will monitor the amount of deviation to see if it fluctuates or if it stays the same. So, what are the treatment options that we have in a patient who absolutely refuses any intervention or is not a candidate for any intervention? Monocular occlusion still remains the viable option. Now, patients who have stable ocular deviation can benefit from using prisms in their glasses, or they can be sent to a surgeon to have a strabismus surgery that can realign their eyes. So, again, a broad answer, but there are options available that we can use.

Dr Grouse: Thank you for that overview. I think that's just really helpful to keep in mind as we're working with these patients and thinking about what their options are. And then finally, I wanted to touch on patients with higher-order vision processing and attention difficulties. What are some strategies for them?

Dr Kedar: These are frankly the most difficult patients that I get to manage in my clinic, simply because there is no effective therapies for managing them. In fact, I think neurologists are far better at this than ophthalmologists or even neuro-ophthalmologists. In patients with attentional disorders, everything boils down to the underlying cause, whether you can treat it or whether it is a slowly progressive, you know, condition, such as from neurodegenerative diseases. And that tailors our goals towards therapy. The primary goal is for safety. A lot of these patients who have visual disturbances from vision processing or attention, they are at accident and fall risk. They have problems with social interactions. And, importantly, there is a gap of understanding of what's going on, not just from their side but also from the family’s side. So, I tend to approach these patients from a safety perspective and social interaction perspective.

Now, I have a table listed in the manuscript which will go into details of what the specific things are. But in a nutshell, if your patient has neglect in a specific part of the visual field, they have accident risk on that side. Simple things like walking through a doorway, they can hurt their shoulders or their knees when they bang into the wall on that side because they are unable to judge what's on the other side. Another example would be a patient who has simultanagnosia or a downgaze policy, such as from progressive super nuclear policy. They are unable to look down fast enough, or they are simply unable to look down and appreciate things that are on the floor, and so they can trip and fall. Walking downstairs is also not a huge risk because they are unable to judge distances as they walk down. A lot of what we see in these patients are things that we have to advise occupational therapists and help them improve these safety parameters at home.

Another thing that we often forget is patients can inadvertently cause a social incident when they tend to ignore people on their affected side. So, if there is a family gathering, they tend to consistently ignore a group of people who are sitting on the affected side as opposed to the other side. And I've had more than a few patients who've come and said that, I may have offended some of my friends and family. In those instances, it's always helpful when they are in clinic to demonstrate to the family how this can be awkward and how this can be mitigated. So, having everybody sit on one side is a useful strategy. Advise your family and friends before a gathering that, hey, this may happen. And it is not because it is deliberate, but it's because of the medical condition. And that goes a lot, you know, further in helping our patients come out of social isolation because they are also afraid of offending people, you know. And they can also participate socially, and it can overall improve their quality of life.

Dr Grouse: That's a really helpful tip, and something I'll keep in mind with my patients with neglect and visual field cuts. Thank you so much for coming to talk with us today. Your article has been so helpful, and I urge everybody listening today to take a look.

Dr Kedar: Thank you, Katie. It was wonderful talking to you.

Dr Grouse: I've been interviewing Dr Sachin Kedar about his article on symptomatic treatment of neuro-ophthalmic visual disturbances, which appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on neuro-ophthalmology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Dysfunction of the supranuclear ocular motor pathways typically causes highly localizable deficits. With sophisticated neuroimaging, it is critical to better understand structure-function relationships and precisely localize pathology within the brain.

In this episode, Lyell K. Jones Jr, MD, FAAN, speaks with Gregory P. Van Stavern, MD, author of the article “Supranuclear Disorders of Eye Movements” in the Continuum® April 2025 Neuro-ophthalmology issue.

Dr. Jones is the editor-in-chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology® and is a professor of neurology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.

Dr. Van Stavern is the Robert C. Drews professor of ophthalmology and visual sciences at Washington University in St Louis, Missouri.

Additional Resources

Read the article: Internuclear and Supranuclear Disorders of Eye Movements

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Full episode transcript available here

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast.

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology. Today I'm interviewing Dr Gregory Van Stavern, who recently authored an article on intranuclear and supranuclear disorders of eye movements for our latest Continuum issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Dr Van Stavern is the Robert C Drews professor of ophthalmology and visual sciences at Washington University in Saint Louis. Dr Van Stavern, welcome, and thank you for joining us today. Why don't you introduce yourself to our audience?

Dr Van Stavern: Hi, my name is Gregory Van Stavern. I'm a neuro-ophthalmologist located in Saint Louis, and I'm pleased to be on this show today.

Dr Jones: We appreciate you being here, and obviously, any discussion of the visual system is worthwhile. The visual system is important. It's how most of us and most of our patients navigate the world. Roughly 40% of the brain---you can correct me if I'm wrong---is in some way assigned to our visual system. But it's not just about the sensory experience, right? The afferent visual processing. We also have motor systems of control that align our vision and allow us to accurately direct our vision to visual targets of interest. The circuitry is complex, which I think is intimidating to many of us. It's much easier to see a diagram of that than to describe it on a podcast. But I think this is a good opportunity for us to talk about the ocular motor exam and how it helps us localize lesions and, and better understand diagnoses for certain disorders. So, let's get right to it, Dr Van Stavern. If you had from your article, which is outstanding, a single most important message for our listeners about recognizing or treating patients with ocular motor disorders, what would that message be?

Dr Van Stavern: Well, I think if we can basically zoom out a little to the big picture, I think it really emphasizes the continuing importance of the examination. History as well, but the examination. I was reading an article the other day that was essentially downplaying the importance of the physical examination in the modern era with modern imaging techniques and technology. But for neurology, and especially neuro-ophthalmology, the history and the examination should still drive clinical decision-making. And doing a careful assessment of the ocular motor system should be able to tell you exactly where the lesion is located, because it's very easy to order a brain MRI, but the MRI is, like Forrest Gump might say, it's like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to find. You may find a lot of things, but because you've done the history and the examination, you can see if whatever lesion is uncovered by the MRI is the lesion that explains what's going on with the patient. So even today, even with the most modern imaging techniques we have, it is still really important to know what you're looking for. And that's where the oculomotor examination can be very helpful.

Dr Jones: I did not have Forrest Gump on my bingo card today, Dr Van Stavern, but that's a really good analogy, right? If you order the MRI, you don't know what you're going to get. And then- and if you don't have a really well-formed question, then sometimes you get misleading information, right? 

Dr Van Stavern: Exactly.

Dr Jones: We'll get into some technology here in a minute, because I think that's relevant for this discussion. I think most of our listeners are going to agree with us that the exam is important in neuro-ophthalmology, and neurology broadly. So, I think you have some sympathetic listeners there. Again, the point of the exam is to localize and then lead to a diagnosis that we can help patients with. When you think about neurologic disorders where the ocular motor exam helps you get to the right diagnosis, obviously disorders of eye movements, but sometimes it's a clue to a broader neurologic syndrome. And you have some nice discussions in your article about the ocular motor clues to Parkinson disease or to progressive supranuclear palsy. Tell us a little more about that. In your practice, which neurologic disorders do you find the ocular motor exam being most helpful?

Dr Van Stavern: Well, just a very brief digression. So, I started off being an ophthalmology resident, and I do two years of ophthalmology and then switch to neurology. And during neurology residency, I was debating which subspecialty to go into, and I realized that neuro-ophthalmology touches every other subspecialty in neurology. And it goes back to the fact that the visual system is so pervasive and widely distributed throughout the brain. So, if you have a neurologic disease, there is a very good chance it is going to affect vision, maybe in a minor way or a major way. That's why careful assessment of the visual system, and particularly the oculomotor system, is really helpful for many neurologic diseases. Neuromuscular disease, obviously, myasthenia gravis and certain myopathies affect the eye movements. Neurodegenerative diseases, in particular Parkinson's disease and parkinsonian conditions, often affect the eye movements. And in particular, when you're trying to differentiate, is this classic Parkinson's disease? Or is this progressive supranuclear palsy? Is it some broad spectrum multisystem atrophy? The differences between the eye movement disorders, even allowing for the fact that there's overlap, can really help point in one direction to the other, and again, prevent unnecessary testing, unnecessary treatment, and so on.

Dr Jones: Very good. And I think, to follow on a thread from that concept with patients who have movement disorders, in my practice, seeing older patients who have a little bit of restriction of vertical gaze is not that uncommon. And it's more common in patients who have idiopathic Parkinson disease. And then we use that part of the exam to help us screen patients for other neurodegenerative syndromes like progressive nuclear- supranuclear palsy. So, do you have any tips for our listeners to- how to look at, maybe, vertical gaze and say, this is maybe a normal age-related degree of change. This is something that might suggest idiopathic Parkinson disease. Or maybe something a little more progressive and sinister like progressive super nuclear palsy?

Dr Van Stavern: Well, I think part of the issue- and it's harder to do this without the visual aspect. One of my colleagues always likes to say for a neurologist, the eye movement exam begins and ends with the neurology benediction, just doing the sign of the cross and checking the eye movements. And that's a good place to start. But I think it's important to remember that all you're looking at is smooth pursuit and range of eye movements, and there's much more to the oculomotor examination than that. There’s other aspects of eye movement. Looking at saccades can be really helpful; in particular, classically, saccadic movements are selectively abnormal in PSP versus Parkinson's with progressive supranuclear palsy. Saccades, which are essentially rapid movements of the eyes---up and down, in this case---are going to be affected in downward gaze. So, the patient is going to have more difficulty initiating downward saccades, slower saccades, and less range of movement of saccades in downgaze. Whereas in Parkinson's, it's classically upward eye movements and upgaze. So, I think that's something you won't be able to see if you're just doing, looking at, you know, your classic, look at your eye movements, which are just assessing, smooth pursuit. Looking carefully at the eye movements during fixation can be helpful.

Another aspect of many parkinsonian conditions is saccadic intrusions, where there's quick movements or saccades of the eye that are interrupting fixation. Much, much more common in PSP than in Parkinson's disease. The saccadic intrusions are what we call square-wave jerks because of what they look like. Eye movement recordings are much larger amplitude in PSP and other multisystem atrophy diseases than with Parkinson's. And none of these are perfect differentiators, but the constellation of those findings, a patient with slow downwards saccades, very large amplitude, and frequent saccadic intrusions might point you more towards this being PSP rather than Parkinson's.

Dr Jones: That's a great pearl, thinking about the saccades in addition to the smooth pursuit. So, thank you for that. And you mentioned eye movement measurements. I think it's simultaneously impressive and a little scary that my phone can tell when I'm looking at it within a few degrees of visual attention. So, I imagine there are automated tools to analyze eye movement. Tell us, what's the state of the art there, and what should our listeners be aware of in terms of tools that are available and what they can and can't do?

Dr Van Stavern: Well, I could tell you, I mean, I see neuro-ophthalmic patients with eye movement disorders every day and we do not have any automated tools for eye movement. We have a ton of imaging techniques for imaging the optic nerve and the retina in different ways, but we don't routinely employ eye movement recording devices. The only time we usually do that is in somebody where we suspect they have a central or peripheral vestibular disease and we send them for vestibular testing, for eye movement recordings. There is interest in using- I know, again, sort of another digression, but if you're looking at the HINTS technique, which is described in the chapter to differentiate central from peripheral disease, which is a very easy, useful way to differentiate central from peripheral or peripheral vestibular disease. And again, in the acute setting, is this a stroke or not a stroke? Is it the brain or is it the inner ear? Part of the problem is that if you're deploying this widespread, the people who are doing it may not be sufficiently good enough at doing the test to differentiate, is a positive or negative test?

And that's where some people have started introducing this into the emergency room, these eye movement recording devices, to give the- using, potentially, AI and algorithms to help the emergency room physicians say, all right, this looks like a stroke, we need to admit the patient, get an MRI and so on, versus, this is vestibular neuritis or an inner ear problem, treat them symptomatically, follow up as an outpatient. That has not yet been widely employed. It's a similar way that a lot of institutions are having fundus photography and OCT devices placed in the emergency room to aid the emergency room physician for patients who present with acute vision issues. So, I think that could be the future. It probably would be something that would be AI-assisted or AI-driven. But I can tell you at least at our institution and most of the ones I know of, it is not routinely employed yet.

Dr Jones: So maybe on the horizon, AI kind of facilitated tools for eye movement disorder interpretation, but it's not ready for prime time yet. Is that a fair summary?

Dr Van Stavern: In my opinion, yes.

Dr Jones: Good to know. This has struck me every time I've read about ocular motor anatomy and ocular motor disorders, whether they're supranuclear or intranuclear disorders. The anatomy is complex, the circuitry is very complicated. Which means I learn it and then I forget it and then I relearn it. But some of the anatomy isn't even fully understood yet. This is a very complex real estate in the brainstem. Why do you think the neurophysiology and neuroanatomy is not fully clarified yet? And is there anything on the horizon that might clarify some of this anatomy?

Dr Van Stavern: The very first time I encountered this topic as an ophthalmology resident and later as a neurology resident, I just couldn't understand how anyone could really understand all of the circuitry involved. And there is a lot of circuitry that is involved in us simply having clear, single binocular vision with the afferent and efferent system working in concert. Even in arch. In my chapter, when you look at the anatomy and physiology of the smooth pursuit system or the vertical gaze pathways, there's a lot of, I'll admit it, there's a lot of hand waving and we don't completely understand it. I think a lot of it has to do with, in the old days, a lot of the anatomy was based on lesions, you know, lesion this area either experimentally or clinically. And that's how you would determine, this is what this region of the brain is responsible for.

Although we've gotten more sophisticated with better imaging, with functional connectivity MRI and so on, all of those have limitations. And that's why I still don't think we completely understand all the way this information is integrated and synthesized, and, to get even more big level and esoteric, how this makes its way into our conscious mind. And that has to do with self-awareness and consciousness, which is a whole other kettle of fish. It's just really complicated. I think when I'm at least talking to other neurologists and residents, I try to keep it as simple as possible from a clinical standpoint. If you see someone with an eye movement problem, try to see if you can localize it to which level you're dealing with. Is it a muscle problem? Is it neuromuscular junction? Is it nerve? Is it nucleus? Is it supranuclear? If you can put it at even one of those two levels, you have eliminated huge territories of neurologic real estate, and that will definitely help you target and tailor your workup. So, again, you're not costing the patient in the healthcare system hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Dr Jones: Great points in there. And I think, you know, if we can't get it down to the rostral interstitial nucleus of the medial longitudinal fasciculus, if we can get it to the brainstem, I think that's obviously- that's helpful in its own right. And I imagine, Dr Van Stavern, managing patients with persistent ocular motor disorders is a challenge. We take foveation for granted, right, when we can create these single cortical images. And I imagine it's important for daily function and difficult for patients who lose that ability to maintain their ocular alignment. What are some of the clinical tools that you use in your practice that our listeners should be aware of to help patients that have a persistent supranuclear disorder of ocular movement?

Dr Van Stavern: Well, I think you tailor your treatment to the symptoms, and if it's directly due to underlying condition, obviously you treat the underlying condition. If they have sixth nerve palsy because of a skull base tumor, obviously you treat the skull base tumor. But from a practical standpoint, I think it depends on what the symptom is, what's causing it, and how much it's affecting their quality of life. And everyone is really different. Some patients have higher levels of tolerance for blurred vision and double vision. For things- for patients who have double vision, depending upon the underlying cause we can sometimes use prisms and glasses. Prisms are simply- a lot of people just think prism is this, like, mystical word that means a lot. It’s simply just an optical device that bends light. So, it essentially bends light to allow the eyes- basically, the image to fall on the fovea in both eyes. And whether the prisms help or not is partly dependent upon how large the misalignment is. If somebody has a large degree of misalignment, you're not going to fix that with prism. The amount of prism you'd need to bend the light enough to land on the fovea in both eyes would cause so much blur and distortion that it would essentially be a glorified patch. So, for small ranges of misalignment, prisms are often very helpful, that we can paste over glasses or grind into glasses. For larger degrees of misalignment that- let's say it is due to some skull base tumor or brain stem lesion that is not going to get better, then eye muscle surgery is a very effective option. We usually like to give people a long enough period of time to make sure there's no change before proceeding with eye muscle surgery.

Dr Jones: Very helpful. So, prisms will help to a limited extent with misalignment, and then surgery is always an option if it's persistent. That's a good pearl for, I think, our listeners to take away.

Dr Van Stavern: And even in those circumstances, even prisms and eye muscle surgery, the goal is primarily to cause single binocular vision and primary gaze at near. Even in those cases, even with the best results, patients are still going to have double vision, eccentric gaze. For most people, that's not a big issue, but we have had a few patients… I had a couple of patients who were truck drivers who were really bothered by the fact that when they look to the left, let's say because it's a 4th nerve palsy on the right, they have double vision. I had a patient who was a golfer who was really, really unhappy with that. Most people are okay with that, but it all depends upon the individual patient and what they use their vision for.

Dr Jones: That's a great point. There's not enough neurologists in the world. I know for a fact there are not enough neuro-ophthalmologists in the world, right? There's just not many people that have that dual expertise. You mentioned that you started with ophthalmology and then did neurology training. What do you think the pipeline looks like for neuro-ophthalmology? Do you see growing interest in this among trainees, or unchanged? What are your thoughts about that?

Dr Van Stavern: No, that's a continuing discussion we're having within our own field about how to attract more residents into neuro-ophthalmology. And there's been a huge shift. In the past, this was primarily ophthalmology-driven. Most neuro-ophthalmologists were trained in ophthalmology initially before doing a fellowship. The last twenty years, it switched. Now there's an almost 50/50 division between neurologists and ophthalmologists, as more neurologists have become more interested. This is probably a topic more for the ophthalmology equivalent of Continuum. One of the perceptions is this is not a surgical subspecialty, so a lot of ophthalmology residents are disincentivized to pursue it. So, we have tried to change that. You can do neuro-ophthalmology and do eye muscle surgery or general ophthalmology. I think it really depends upon whether you have exposure to a neuro-ophthalmologist during your neurology residency. If you do not have any exposure to neuro-ophthalmology, this field will always seem mysterious, a huge black box, something intimidating, and something that is not appealing to a neurologist. I and most of my colleagues make sure to include neurology residents in our clinic so they at least have exposure to it.

Dr Jones: That's a great point. If you never see it, it's hard to envision yourself in that practice. So, a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't have neuro-ophthalmologists, it's hard to expose that practice to trainees.

Dr Van Stavern: And we're also trying; I mean, we make sure to include medical students, bring them to our meetings, present research to try to get them interested in this field at a very early stage.

Dr Jones: Dr Van Stavern, great discussion, very helpful. I want to thank you for joining us today. I want to thank you for not just a great podcast, but also just a wonderful article on ocular motor disorders, supranuclear and intranuclear. I learned a lot, and hopefully our listeners did too.

Dr Van Stavern: Well, thanks. I really appreciate doing this. And I love Continuum. I learn something new every time I get another issue.

Dr Jones: Well, thanks for reading it. And I'll tell you as the editor of Continuum, I learn a lot reading these articles. So, it's really a joy to get to read, up to the minute, cutting-edge clinical content for neurology. Again, we've been speaking with Dr Gregory Van Stavern, author of a fantastic article on intranuclear and supranuclear disorders of eye movements in Continuum's most recent issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Please check it out, and thank you to our listeners for joining today.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Double vision is a symptom often experienced by patients with neurologic disease. An organized systematic approach to evaluating patients with diplopia needs a foundational understanding of the neuroanatomy and examination of eye movements and ocular alignment.

In this episode, Teshamae Monteith, MD, FAAN, speaks with Devin Mackay, MD, FAAN, author of the article “Approach to Diplopia” in the Continuum® April 2025 Neuro-ophthalmology issue.

Dr. Monteith is the associate editor of Continuum® Audio and an associate professor of clinical neurology at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine in Miami, Florida.

Dr. Mackay is an associate professor of neurology, ophthalmology, and clinical neurosurgery at Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Additional Resources

Read the article: Approach to Diplopia

Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum

Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME

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More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com

Social Media

facebook.com/continuumcme

@ContinuumAAN

Host: @headacheMD

Full episode transcript available here

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith. Today I'm interviewing Dr Devin Mackay about his article on approach to diplopia, which appears in the April 2025 Continuum issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Welcome to the podcast. How are you?

Dr Mackay: Thank you. It's great to be here.

Dr Monteith: Congratulations on your article.

Dr Mackay: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Dr Monteith: Why don't you start off with introducing yourself to our audience?

Dr Mackay: So, yeah, my name is Devin Mackay. I'm a neuro-ophthalmologist at Indiana University. I did my residency at what was used to be known as the Partners Healthcare Program in Boston, and I did a fellowship in neuro-ophthalmology in Atlanta. And I've been in practice now for about ten years.

Dr Monteith: Oh, wow. Okay. Tell us a little bit about your goals when you were writing the chapter.

Dr Mackay: So, my goal with the approach to double vision was really to demystify double vision. I think double vision is something that as trainees, and even as faculty members and practicing neurologists, we really get intimidated by, I think. And it really helps to have a way to approach it that demystifies it and allows us to localize, just like we do with so many other problems in neurology.

Dr Monteith: I love that, demystification. So why don't you tell us what got you interested in neuro-ophthalmology?

Dr Mackay: Yeah, so neuro-ophthalmology I stumbled on during a rotation during residency. We rotated in different subspecialties of neurology and I did neuro-ophthalmology, and I was just amazed by the exam and how intricate it was, the value of neuroanatomy and localization, the ability to take a complicated problem and kind of approach it as a diagnostic specialist and really unravel the layers of it to make it better. To, you know, figure out what the problem is and make it better.

Dr Monteith: Okay, so you had a calling, clearly.

Dr Mackay: I sure did.

Dr Monteith: You talked about latest developments in neuro-ophthalmology as it relates to diplopia. Why don't you share that with our listeners?

Dr Mackay: Yeah. So, you know, double vision is something that's really been around since the beginning of time, essentially. So that part hasn't really changed a lot, but there are some changes that have happened in how we approach double vision. Probably one of the bigger ones has been, we used to teach that with a, you know, patient over the age of fifty with vascular risk factors who had a cranial nerve palsy of cranial nerves 3, 4, or 6, we used to automatically assume that was a microvascular palsy and we just wouldn't do any more testing and we'd just, you know, wait to see how they did. And it turns out we're missing some patients who have significant pathologies, sometimes, with that approach. And so, we've really shifted our teaching with that to emphasize that it's a lot easier to get an MRI, for example, than it ever has been. And it can be important to make sure we're not missing important pathology in patients, even if they have vascular risk factors over the age of fifty and they just have a cranial nerve 3, 4, or 6 palsy. So that's been one change.

Dr Monteith: Interesting. And why don't you tell us a little bit about the essential points that you want to get across in the article?

Dr Mackay: Yeah. So, I think one is to have a systematic approach to double vision. And a lot of that really revolves around localization. And it even begins with the history that we take from the patients. There's lots of interesting things we can ask about double vision from the patient. For example, the most important thing you can ever ask someone with double vision is, does it go away when you cover either eye? And that really helps us figure out the first question for us as neurologists, which is, is it neurologic or non-neurologic? If it's still there when covering one eye, then it is not neurologic and that's usually a problem for an ophthalmologist to sort out. So that's really number one. And then if it is binocular double vision, then we get into details about, is it horizontal or vertical misalignment? Is it- what makes it better and worse? Is there an associated ptosis or other symptoms? And based on all of that, we can really localize the abnormality with the double vision and get into details about further testing if needed, and so forth. I also love that that approach really reduces our need to rely on things like neuroimaging sometimes when we may not need it, or on other tests. So, I think it really helps us be more efficient and really take better care of patients.

Dr Monteith: So definitely that cover/uncover test, top thing there. Your approach- and you mentioned, are you really getting that history, and are there any other kind of key factors when you're approaching diplopia before getting into some of the details?

Dr Mackay: Yeah, that's a good question. I think also having some basics of how to examine the patient, because double vision is such a challenging thing. A lot of us aren't as familiar with the exam toolkit, so to speak, of what you would do with a patient with double vision. And so, I go over in the article a bit about a Maddox rod, which is a handy little tool that I always keep in my pocket of my lab coat. It allows you to assign a red line to one eye and a light to the other eye, and you can see if the eyes line up or not. And you don't need any other special equipment, you just need the light in that Maddox rod. That really helps us understand a lot about the pattern of misalignment, which is really important for evaluating double vision. So, for example, if someone has a right 6th nerve palsy, I'll expect a horizontal misalignment of the eyes that worsens when the patient looks to the right and improves when they look to the left. And especially if it's a partial palsy, it's not always easy to see that just by looking at their eye movements. And having a way to really measure the eye alignment and figure out, is it worse or better in certain directions, is really essential to localization, I think, in a lot of cases.

Dr Monteith: You caught me. I skipped over that Maddox rod part, even though you spent a lot of time talking about Maddox rods. Kind of skipped over it. So, you're saying that I need one.

Dr Mackay: Everyone needs one. I've converted some of our residents here to carry one with them. And yeah, I realize it's a daunting tool at first, but when you have a patient with double vision and their eye movements look normal, I feel like a lot of neurologists are- kind of, their hands seem like they're tied and they’re like, oh, I don't know, I don't know what to do at this point. And if you can get some more details with a simple object like that, it can really change things.

Dr Monteith: So, we’ve got to talk to the AAN store and make sure that they have enough of these, because now there's going to be lots of…

Dr Mackay: We're going to sell out on Amazon today now because of this podcast.

Dr Monteith: Cyber Monday. So, let's talk about the H pattern. And I didn't know it had the- well, yeah, I guess the official name is “H pattern.” In medical school, I mean, that's what I learned. But as a resident and, you know, certainly as an attendee, I see people doing all sorts of things. You're pro-H pattern, but are there other patterns that you also respect?

Dr Mackay: It depends on what you're looking for, I think. The reason I like the H pattern is because you get to look at upgaze and downgaze in two different directions. So, you get to look at upgaze and downgaze when looking to the left, and up- and downgaze when looking to the right. And the reason that matters is because vertical movements of the eyes are actually controlled by different eye muscles depending on whether the eye is adducted toward the nose or abducted away from the nose. And so that's why I love the H pattern, is because it allows you to see that. If you just have them look up and down with just a cross pattern, for example, then you really lose that specificity of looking at both the adduction and abduction aspects. So, it's not wrong to do it another way with, like, the cross, for example, but I just think there are some cases where we'll be missing some information, and sometimes that can actually make a difference.

Dr Monteith: Well, there you have it. Let's talk a little bit about eliciting diplopia during the neurologic exam. What other things should we be looking out for?

Dr Mackay: So, in terms of eliciting diplopia, it really starts with the exam and again, figuring out, are we covering one eye? And figuring out, is this patient still having double vision? It's tricky because sometimes the patients won't even know the answer to that question or they've never done it, they’ve never covered one eye. And so, if that's the case, I really make them do it in the office with me and it's like, okay, well, are we having double vision right now? Well, great, okay, we are, then we're going to figure this out right now. And we cover one eye and say, is it still double? And that way we can really figure out, are we monocular or binocular? That's always step one. And then if we've established that it's binocular diplopia, then that's when we get into the other details that I mentioned before. And then as far as other things to look for, we're always in tune to other things that are going on in terms of symptoms, like ptosis, or if there's bulbar weakness, or some sensory change or motor problem that seems to be associated with it. Obviously, those will give us clues in the localization as well.

Dr Monteith: And what about ocular malalignment?

Dr Mackay: Yeah. So ocular malalignment, really, the cardinal symptom of that is going to be double vision. And so, if a patient has a misalignment of the eyes and they don't have double vision, then usually that means either we're wrong and they don't have double vision, or they do have double vision and they, you know, haven't said it correctly. Or it could be that the vision is poor in one eye. Sometimes that can happen. Or, some patients were actually born with an eye misalignment and their brain has learned in a way to kind of tune out or not allow the proper development of vision in one eye. And so that's also known as amblyopia, also known as the lazy eye, some people call it. But that finding can also make someone not experience double vision. But otherwise, if someone's had normal vision kind of throughout their life, they'll usually be pretty aware of when they first notice double vision. It'll be an obvious event for them in in most cases.

Dr Monteith: And then the Cogan lid twitch?

Dr Mackay: Oh yes, the Cogan lid twitch. So, the Cogan lid twitch is a feature of myasthenia gravis. The way you elicit it is, you have the patient look down. I'm not sure there's a standardization for how long; you want to have it long enough that you're resting the levator muscle, which is the muscle that pulls the upper lid open. And so, you rest that by having them look down for… I usually do about ten or fifteen seconds. And then I have them look up to looking straight forward. And you want to pay careful attention to their lid position as their eye settles in that straight-forward position. What will happen with a Cogan's lid twitch is, the lid will overshoot, and then it'll come back down and settle into its, kind of, proper position. And what we think is happening there is, it's almost like a little mini “rest test” in a way, where you're resting that muscle just long enough to allow some of the neurotransmission to recover. You get a normal contraction of the muscle, but it fades very quickly and comes back down. And that's experienced as a twitch.

Dr Monteith: So, the patient can feel it. And it's something you can see?

Dr Mackay: Yeah, the patient may not feel it as much. It's usually it's going to be something that the clinician can see if they're looking for it. And I would say that's one of the physical exam findings that can be a hallmark of myasthenia gravis, but certainly not the only one. Some others that we often look for are fatigable ptosis with sustained upgaze. You have the patient look up for a prolonged time and you'll see the lid droop down. So that can be one. Ice pack test is very popular nowadays, and it has pretty good sensitivity and specificity for myasthenia. So, you keep an ice pack over the closed eyes for two minutes and you compare the lid position before and after the ice pack test. And in the vast majority of myasthenia patients, if they have ptosis, the ptosis will have resolved, or at least significantly improved, in those patients. And yet one more sign is, if you find the patient's eye with ptosis and you lift open the eye manually, you'll often see that the other eyelid and the other eye will lower down. So, I'm not sure there's a name for that, but that can be a helpful sign as well.

Dr Monteith: Since you're going through some of these, kind of, key features of different neurologic disease, why don't you tell us about a few others?

Dr Mackay: Yeah, so another I mentioned in the in the article is measurement of levator function, which is really a test of eyelid strength. And so, that can be helpful if we have- someone has ptosis, or we're not sure if they have ptosis and we're trying to evaluate that to see if it's linked to the double vision, because that really changes the differential if ptosis is part of the clinical situation. So, the way that's measured is you have a patient look down as far as they can. And you get out a little ruler---I usually use a millimeter ruler---and I set the zero of the ruler at the upper lid margin when they're looking down. So, I hold the ruler there, and then I ask the patient to look up as far as they can without moving their head. Where the lid position stops of the upper lid is the new point on the ruler. And so, you measure that and see how much that is. And so, a normal patient may have a value somewhere between, I don't know, twelve or thirteen millimeters up to seventeen or eighteen millimeters, probably, in most cases. Especially if there is an asymmetric lid position, if you find that the levator function is symmetric, then it tells you that the muscle is working fine and that the ptosis is not from the muscle. So then the ptosis may be from dehiscence of the lid margin from the muscle. And so, that's a really common cause of ptosis, and that's often age-related or trauma-related. And we can dismiss that as being part of the symptom constellation of double vision. So, it can be really helpful to clarify, is this a muscle problem, which you'd expect with myasthenia or a third nerve palsy, or is this a mechanical problem with the lid, which is non-neurologic and really should be dismissed? So that can be a really helpful exam tool.

Dr Monteith: So, you're just now getting into a little localization. So why don't we kind of start from the most proximal pistol with localization. Give us a little bit of tips. I know they just got to read your article, but give us a few tips.

Dr Mackay: So, in terms of most proximal causes, there are supranuclear causes of ocular misalignment. For example, a skew deviation would qualify as that. Anything that's happening from some deficient input before you get to the cranial nerve nuclei, that we would consider supranuclear. So, we also see that with things like progressive supranuclear policy and certain other conditions. And then there can be lesions of the cranial nerve nuclei themselves. So, cranial nerves 3, 4, and 6 all have nuclei, and if they're lesioned they will cause double vision in specific patterns. And then there's also another subgroup, which is known as intranuclear problems with eye alignment. And so, the most common of that is going to be intranuclear ophthalmoplegia. And so that's very common in patients with demyelinating disorders, or it can also happen with strokes and tumors and other causes.

And then there's infranuclear problems, which are from the cranial nerve nuclei out, and so those would be the cranial nerves themselves. So that's where your microvascular palsies, any tumor pressing on the nerve in those locations can cause palsies like that, any inflammatory disorder along that course. Then as we get more distal, we get into the orbit, we have the neuromuscular junction---so, the connection between the nerve and the muscle. And of course, that's our myasthenia gravis. And there are rare causes, things like botulinum and tick borne illnesses and certain other things that are more rare. And then, of course, we get to the muscle itself, and there can be different muscular dystrophies, different things like myositis or inflammatory disorders of the orbit or even physical trauma. So, if a patient, you know, had a trauma in trapping an extraocular muscle, that can be a localization. So really, anywhere along that pathway you can have double vision. So, I love to approach it from that perspective to help narrow down the diagnostic possibilities.

Dr Monteith: Okay, just like everything?

Dr Mackay: Just like all of the rest of the neurology. See, it's not that scary.

Dr Monteith: You know, and so, yeah. And then you do a lot more than, you know, a few cranial nerves, right?

Dr Mackay: Right. That's right. There's a lot more to double vision than that. I think as neurologists, we get lost if it's not a cranial nerve palsy, we're like, oh, I don't know what this is. And if it's not myasthenia, not a cranial nerve palsy. But it's worth also considering that there are ophthalmologic causes of someone having double vision that we often don't consider. So maybe someone who was born with strabismus, or maybe they have a little bit of a tendency toward an eye misalignment that their brain compensates, for and then it decompensates someday and that now they have a little bit of double vision intermittently, so that those can be causes to consider as well.

Dr Monteith: Yeah, well, we'll just have to, you know, request those records from forty years ago. No problem.

Dr Mackay: That's right.

Dr Monteith: Why don't you also give us a little bit of tip when we're on the wards and we want to teach either a medical student or a resident, or if it's a resident listening, may want to teach a junior resident and seem like a star when approaching a patient with diplopia. Give us some teaching pearls.

Dr Mackay: Yeah. So, I would love people teaching more about this at the bedside. I'd say probably the first thing to do would be to equip yourself by recognizing what some of the pertinent questions are to ask someone with double vision. Those things would include, is the double vision worse when looking in a certain direction? Does the double vision go away or not when you cover one eye? What happens when you tilt your head one direction or the other? Is it intermittent or constant? What makes it better? What makes it worse? Those kinds of things can really help us narrow down the possibilities. And then the other thing would be to equip yourself with some tools for examining. And it doesn't have to be physical tools. These can actually be things like, you mentioned the cross-cover test or cover/uncover test. That's described in the article. And I think knowing how to do that properly, knowing how to examine the eye movements properly and how to check for subtle things like a subtle intranuclear ophthalmoplegia, which is also mentioned in the article, being familiar with those things can be a really useful exercise in allowing you to teach others later on.

Dr Monteith: Cool. Why don't you tell us about some of the things you're most excited about in the field?

Dr Mackay: One of the things about our subspecialty for so long is we really haven't had big data with, you know, big trials and all these things that all the stroke people have. And that's starting to change slowly. There's been, for example, the idiopathic intracranial hypertension treatment trial that was published back in, I think it was 2014. You know, of course we had the optic neuritis treatment trial, back a few decades ago now. Some of the exciting ones coming up, there's going to be a randomized controlled trial looking at different treatments for idiopathic intracranial hypertension that are surgically based. So, for example, comparing venous sinus stenting with optic nerve sheath fenestration. And so, figuring out, is there a best practice for surgical intervention for patients with IIH? So, we're starting to have more trials like that now than I think we've had in the past. And so, it's exciting to get to have an evidence base for some of the things that we recommend and do.

Dr Monteith: And what about some of the treatment for diplopia? Like prisms, and where are we with some of that?

Dr Mackay: Yeah, great. So, it's a pretty simple concept, but still kind of difficult in practice. I kind of say there are four different ways to treat double vision: you can ignore it, you can patch or cover one eye, you can treat with prisms, and you can treat with eye muscle surgery. And so, those are the main ways other than, of course, treating the underlying disorder if there's a disorder causing double vision. So those are the main ways to treat. In terms of knowing if someone's going to be a candidate for prism therapy, we also have to remember that prisms are really going to be most helpful for when someone's looking straight forward. So, we need to make sure that their double vision is happening when they look straight forward. So, for example, if they're only having double vision looking to the left or to the right, that patient may not benefit from prisms as much as someone who is having double vision when they look straight forward. So that's one thing I look for. And then strabismus surgery is something to be considered if someone is not tolerating prisms and they're not helping and their eye alignment is stable. So, if you think about it, if someone's eye alignment is changing a lot, you're probably not going to want to do surgery for that patient because it's going to keep changing after surgery. And so, if someone's eye alignment is stable for six months or more and they're not getting the benefit they'd like from prisms, then maybe referral to a strabismus surgeon might be something to consider.

Dr Monteith: Great. And then, I guess another question is just popping up in my head selfishly. What are your thoughts about patients that get referrals for exercises? Say they have, like, a convergence efficiency or something causing diplopia, maybe after a concussion. Maybe there's not a lot of evidence, but what is your take on exercising?

Dr Mackay: Yeah, excellent question. So, there actually is evidence for exercises for convergence insufficiency. So, we know that those do work. Now where exercises are probably not as helpful, or at least not- there isn't an evidence base for them, is really with just about every other kind of eye misalignment in adults. We hear a lot about eye movement therapies for concussion and barely any other acquired misalignment of the eyes as well. And really, the evidence really hasn't shown us that that's helpful; again, with the exception being convergence insufficiency. So, we know that an office-based vision therapy type program for convergence insufficiency does work, but of course it's kind of inconvenient. It can cost money that may or may not be covered by insurance. And so, there are difficulties even with doing that. And so, I often recommend that patients with convergence insufficiency at least try something called pencil push-ups, where they take a pencil at arm's length and they bring it in and exercise that convergence ability. You know, that's a cheap, easy way to try to treat that initially. So yeah, there can be some limited utility for eye muscle exercises in certain conditions.

Dr Monteith: My one example. I was- it was fuzzy, but in a different way. So, what do you do for fun? I mean, it sounds like you like to see a lot of eyeballs?

Dr Mackay: I do. I like to see a lot of eyeballs.

Dr Monteith: When you're not doing these things, what do you do for fun?

Dr Mackay: So, people ask me what my hobbies are, and I laugh because my hobby is actually raising children.

Dr Monteith: Oh, okay!

Dr Mackay: So, my wife and I have eight kids-

Dr Monteith: Oh, wow!

Dr Mackay: Ages three to thirteen. So, kind of doesn't allow me to have other things right now. I'm sure I'll have more hobbies later on, but no, I really love my kids. And I- they give me plenty to do. There's no shortage of- in fact, they were really, they were really excited about this podcast today. They're so excited that Dad gets to be on a podcast, and so I'm going to have to show this to them later. They're going to be thrilled about it.

Dr Monteith: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Dr Mackay: Thank you. It's been my pleasure.

Dr Monteith: Again, today I've been interviewing Dr Devin Mackay about his article on approach to diplopia, which appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on neuro-ophthalmology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Papilledema describes optic disc swelling (usually bilateral) arising from raised intracranial pressure. Due to its serious nature, there is a fear of underdiagnosis; hence, one major stumbling points is correct identification, which typically requires a thorough ocular examination including visual field testing.

In this episode, Kait Nevel, MD speaks with Susan P. Mollan, MBChB, PhD, FRCOphth, author of the article “Papilledema” in the Continuum® April 2025 Neuro-ophthalmology issue.

Dr. Nevel is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a neurologist and neuro-oncologist at Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Dr. Mollan is a professor and neuro-ophthalmology consultant at University Hospitals Birmingham in Birmingham, United Kingdom.

Additional Resources

Read the article: Papilledema

Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum

Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME

Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud

More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com

Social Media

facebook.com/continuumcme

@ContinuumAAN

Host: @IUneurodocmom

Guest: @DrMollan

Full episode transcript available here

Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast.

Dr Nevel: Hello, this is Dr Kait Nevel. Today I'm interviewing Dr Susan Mollan about her article Papilledema Diagnosis and Management, which appears in the April 2025 Continuum issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Susie, welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience.

Dr Mollan: Thank you so much, Kait. It's a pleasure to be here today. I'm Susie Mollan, I'm a consultant neuro-ophthalmologist, and I work at University Hospitals Birmingham- and that's in England.

Dr Nevel: Wonderful. So glad to be talking to you today about your article. To start us off, can you please share with us what you think is the most important takeaway from your article for the practicing neurologist?

Dr Mollan: I think really the most important thing is about examining the fundus and actually trying to visualize the optic nerves. Because as neurologists, you're really acutely trained in examining the cranial nerves, and often people shy away from looking at the eyes. And it can give people such confidence when they're able to really work out straightaway whether there's going to be a problem or there's not going to be a problem with papilledema. And I guess maybe a little bit later on we can talk about the article and tips and tricks for looking at the fundus. But I think that would be my most important thing to take away.

Dr Nevel: I'm so glad that you started with that because, you know, that's something that I find with trainees in general, that they often find one of the more daunting or challenging aspects of learning, really, how to do an excellent neurological exam is examining the fundus and feeling confident in diagnosing papilledema. What kind of advice do you give to trainees learning this skill?

Dr Mollan: So, it really is practice and always carrying your ophthalmoscope with you. There's lots of different devices that people can choose to buy. But really, if you have a direct ophthalmoscope, get it out in the ward, get it out in clinic. Look at those patients that you'd know have alternative diagnosis, but it gives you that practice. I also invite everybody to come to the eye clinic because we have dilated patients there all the time. We have diabetic retinopathy clinics, and it makes it really easy to start to acquire those skills because I think it's very tricky, because you're getting a highly magnified view of the optic nerve and you've got to sort out in your head what you're actually looking at. I think it's practice. and then use every opportunity to really look at the fundus, and then ask your ophthalmology colleagues whether you can go to clinic.

Dr Nevel: Wonderful advice. What do you think is most challenging about the evaluation of papilledema and why?

Dr Mollan: I think there are many different aspects that are challenging, and these patients come from lots of different areas. They can come from the family doctor, they can come from an optician or another specialist. A lot of them can have headache. And, as you know, headache is almost ubiquitous in the population. So, trying to pull out the sort of salient symptoms that can go across so many different conditions. There's nothing that's pathognomonic for papilledema other than looking at the optic nerves. So, I think it's difficult because the presentation can be difficult. The actual history can be challenging. There are those rare patients that don't have headache, don't have pulsatile tinnitus, but can still have papilledema. So, I think it- the most challenging thing is actually confirming papilledema. And if you're not able to confirm it, getting that person to somebody who's able to help and confirm or refute papilledema is the most important thing.

Dr Nevel: Yeah, right. Because you talk in your article the importance of distinguishing between papilledema and some other diagnoses that can look like papilledema but aren't papilledema. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Dr Mollan: Absolutely. I think in the article it's quite nice because we were able to spend a bit of time on a big table going through all the pseudopapilledema diagnoses. So that includes people with shortsightedness, longsightedness, people with optic nerve head drusen. And we've been very fortunate in ophthalmology that we now have 3D imaging of the optic nerve. So, it makes it quite clear to us, when it's pseudopapilledema, it's almost unfair when you're using the direct ophthalmoscope that you don't get a cross sectional image through that optic nerve. So, I'd really sort of recommend people to delve into the article and look at that table because it nicely picks out how you could pick up pseudopapilledema versus papilledema.

Dr Nevel: Perfect. In your article, you also talk about what's important to think about in terms of causes of papilledema and what to evaluate for. Can you tell us, you know, when you see someone who you diagnose with papilledema, what do you kind of run through in terms of diagnostic tests and things that you want to make sure you're evaluating for or not missing?

Dr Mollan: Yeah. So, I think the first thing is, is once it's confirmed, is making sure it's isolated or whether there's any additional cranial nerve palsies. So that might be particularly important in terms of double vision and a sixth nerve palsy, but also not forgetting things like corneal sensation in the rest of the cranial nerves. I then make sure that we have a blood pressure. And that sounds a bit ridiculous in this day and age because everybody should have a blood pressure coming to clinic or into the emergency room. But sometimes it's overlooked in the panic of thinking, gosh, I need to investigate this person. And if you find that somebody does have malignant hypertension, often what we do is we kind of stop the investigational pathway and go down the route of getting the medics involved to help with lowering the blood pressure to a safe level. I would then always think about my next thing in terms of taking some bloods. I like to rule out anemia because anemia can coexist in a lot of different conditions of raised endocranial pressure.

And so, taking some simple blood such as a complete blood count, checking the kidney function, I think is important in that investigational pathway. But you're not really going to stop there. You're going to move on to neuroimaging. It doesn't really matter what you do, whether you do a CT or an MRI, it's just getting that imaging pretty much on the same day as you see the patient. And the key point to that imaging is to do venography. And you want to rule out a venous sinus thrombosis cause that's the one thing that is really going to cause the patient a lot of morbidity. Once your neuroimaging is secure and you're happy, there's no structural lesion or a thrombosis, it's then reviewing that imaging to make sure it's safe to proceed with lumbar puncture. And so, we would recommend the lumbar puncture in the left lateral decubitus position and allowing the patient to be as calm and relaxed as possible to be able to get that accurate opening pressure. Once we get that, we can send the CSF for contents, looking for- making sure they don't have any signs of meningitis or raised protein. And then, really, we're at that point of saying, you know, we should have a secure diagnosis, whether it would be a structural lesion, venous sinus thrombosis, or idiopathic intracranial hypertension.

Dr Nevel: Wonderful. Thank you for that really nice overview and, kind of, diagnostic pathway and stepwise thought process in the evaluations that we do. There are several different treatments for papilledema that you go through in your article, ranging from surgical to medication options. When we're taking care of an individual patient, what factors do you use to help guide you in this decision-making process of what treatment is best for the patient and how urgent treatment is?

Dr Mollan: I think that's a really important question because there's two things to consider here. One is, what is the underlying diagnosis? Which, hopefully, through the investigational save, you'll have been able to achieve a secure diagnosis. But going along that investigational pathway, which determines the urgency of treatment, is, what's happening with the vision? If we have somebody where we're noting that the vision is affected- and normally it's actually through a formal visual field. And that's really challenging for lots of people to get in the emergency situation because syndromes of raised endocranial pressure often don't cause problems with the visual acuity or the color vision until it's very late. And also, you won't necessarily get a relative afferent papillary defect because often it's bilateral. So I really worry if any of those signs are there in somebody that may have papilledema.

And so, a lot rests on that visual field. Now, we're quite good at doing confrontational visual fields, but I would say that most neurologists should be carrying pins to be able to look at the visual fields rather than just pointing fingers and quadrants if you're not able to get a formal visual field early. It's from that I would then determine if the vision is affected, I need to step up what I'm going to do. So, I think the sort of next thing to think about is that sort of vision. So, if we have somebody who, you know, you define as have severe sight loss at the point that you're going through this investigational pathway, you need to get an ophthalmologist or a neuro-ophthalmologist on board to help discuss either the surgery teams as to whether you need to be heading towards an intervention. And there are a number of different types of intervention. And the reason why we discuss it in the article---and we'll also be discussing it in a future issue of Continuum---is there's not high-class evidence to suggest one surgery over another surgery. We may touch on this later.

So, we've got our patients with severe visual loss who we need to do something immediately. We may have people where the papilledema is moderate, but the vision isn't particularly affected. They may just have an enlarged blind spot. For those patients, I think we definitely need to be thinking about medical therapy and talking to them about what the underlying cause is. And the commonest medicine to use for raised endocranial pressure in this setting is acetazolamide, a carbonic anhydrous inhibitor. And I think that should be started at the point that you believe somebody has moderate papilledema, with a lot of discussion around the side effects of the medicine that we go into the article and also the fact that a lot of our patients find acetazolamide in an escalating dose challenging. There are some patients with very mild papilledema and no visual change where I might say, hey, I don't think we need to start treatment immediately, but you need to see somebody who understands your disease to talk to you about what's going on. And generally, I would try and get somebody out of the emergency investigational pathway and into a formal clinic as soon as possible.

Dr Nevel: Thank you so much for that. One thing that I was wondering that we see clinically is you get a consult for a patient, maybe, who had an isolated episode of vertigo, back to their normal self, completely resolved… but incidentally, somebody ordered an MRI. And that MRI, in the report, it says partially empty sella, slight flattening of the posterior globe, concerns for increased intracranial pressure. What should we be doing with these patients who, you know, normal neurological exam, maybe we can't detect any definite papilledema on our endoscopic exam. What do you think the appropriate pathway is for those patients?

Dr Mollan: I think it's really important. The more neuroimaging that we're doing, we're sort of seeing more people with signs that are we don't believe are normal. So, you've mentioned a few, the sort of partially empty sella, empty sella, tortuosity of the optic nerves, flattening of the globes, changes in transverse sinus. And we have quite a nice, again, table in the article that talks about these signs. But they have really low sensitivity for a diagnosis of raised endocranial pressure and isolation. And so, I think it's about understanding the context of which the neuroimaging has been taken, taking a history and going back and visiting that to make sure that they don't have escalating headache. And also, as you said, rechecking the eye nerves to make sure there's no papilledema.

I think if you have a good examination with the direct ophthalmoscope and you determine that there's no papilledema, I would be confident to say there's no papilledema. So, I don't think they need to necessarily cry doubt. The ophthalmology offices, we certainly are having quite a few additional referrals, particularly for this, which we kind of called IIH-RAD, where patients are coming to us for this exclusion. And I think, in the intervening time, patients can get very anxious about having a sort of MRI artifact picked up that may necessarily mean a different diagnosis. So, I guess it's a little bit about reassurance, making sure we've taken the appropriate history and performed the examination. And then knowing that actually it's really a number of different signs that you need to be able to confidently diagnose raised ICP, and also the understanding that sometimes when people have these signs, if the ICP reduces, those signs remain. You know, we're learning an awful lot more about MRI imaging and what's normal, what's within normal limits. So, I think reassurance and sensible medical approach.

Dr Nevel: Absolutely. In the section in your article on idiopathic intracranial hypertension, you spend a little bit of time talking about how important it is that we sensitively approach the topic of potential weight loss for those patients who are overweight. How do you approach that discussion in your clinic? Because I think it's an important part of the holistic patient care with that condition.

Dr Mollan: I think this is one of the things that we've really listened to the patients about over the last number of years where we recognize that in an emergency situation, sometimes we can be quite quick to sort of say, hey, you have idiopathic endocranial hypertension and weight loss is, you know, the best treatment for the condition. And I think in those circumstances, it can be quite distressing to the patient because they feel that there's a lot of stigma attached around weight management. So, we worked with the patient group here at IIH UK to really come up with a way of a signposting to our patients that we have to be honest that there is a link, you know, a strong evidence that weight gain and body shape change can cause someone to fall into a diagnosis of IIH. And we know that weight loss is really effective with this condition. So, I think where I've learned from the patients is trying to use language that's less stigmatizing. I definitely signpost that I'm going to talk about something sensitive. So, I say I'm going to talk about something sensitive and I'm going to say, do you know that this condition is related to body shape change? And I know that if I listen to this podcast in a couple of years, I'm sure my words will have changed. And I think that's part of the process, is learning how to speak to people in an ever-changing language. And they think that sort of signpost that you're going to talk about something sensitive and you're going to talk about body shape change. And then follow up with, are you OK with me talking about this now? Is it something you want to talk about? And the vast majority of people say, yes, let's talk about it. There'll be a few people that don't want to talk about it. And I usually come in quite quickly, say, is it OK if I mention it at the next consultation? Because we have a duty of care to sort of inform our patients, but at the same time we need to take them on that journey to get them back to health, and they need to be really enlisted in that process.

Dr Nevel: Yeah, I really appreciate that. These can be really difficult conversations and uncomfortable conversations to have that are really important. And you're right, we have a duty as medical providers to have these conversations or inform our patients, but the way that we approach it can really impact the way patients perceive not only their diagnosis, but the relationship that we have with our patients. And we always want that to be a positive relationship moving forward so that we can best serve our patients.

Dr Mollan: I think the other thing as well is making sure that you've got good signposts to the professionals. And that's what I say, because people then say to me, well, you know, kind of what diet should I be on? What should I be doing? And I say, well, actually, I don't have professional experience with that. I'm, I'm very fortunate in my hospital, I'm able to send patients to the endocrine weight management service. I'm also able to send patients to the dietetic service. So, it's finding, really, what suits the patient. Also what's within licensing in your healthcare system to be able to provide. But not being too prescriptive, because when you spend time with weight management professionals, they'll tell you lots of different things about diets that people have championed and actually, in randomized controlled trials, they haven't been effective. I think it's that signpost really.

Dr Nevel: Yeah, absolutely. So, could you talk a little bit about what's going on in research in papilledema or in this area, and what do you think is up-and-coming?

Dr Mollan: I think there's so much going on. Mainly there's two parts of it. One is image analysis, and we've had some really fantastic work out of the Singapore group Bonsai looking at a machine learning decision support tool. When people take fundal pictures from a normal fundus camera, they're able to say with good certainty, is this papilledema, is this not papilledema? But more importantly, if you talk to the investigators, something that we can't tell when we look in is they're able to, with quite a high level of certainty, say, well, this is base occupying lesion, this is a venous sinus thrombosis, and this is IIH. And you know, I've looked at thousands and thousands of people's eyes and that I can't tell why that is. So, I think the area of research that is most exciting, that will help us all, is this idea about decision support tools. Where, in your emergency pathway, you're putting a fundal camera in that helps you be able to run the image, the retina, and also to try and work out possibly what's going on. I think that's where the future will go. I think we've got many sort of regulatory steps and validation and appropriate location of a learning to go on in that area. So, that's one side of the imaging.

I think the other side that I'm really excited about, particularly with some of the work that we've been doing in Birmingham, is about treatment. The surgical treatments, as I talked about earlier… really, there's no high-class evidence. There's a number of different groups that have been trying to do randomized trials, looking at stenting versus shunting. They're so difficult to recruit to in terms of trials. And so, looking at other treatments that can reduce intracranial pressure. We published a small phase two study looking at exenatide, which is a glucagon-like peptide receptor agonist, and it showed in a small group of patients living with IIH that it could reduce the intracranial pressure two and a half hours, twenty-four hours, and also out to three months. And the reason why this is exciting is we would have a really good acute therapy---if it's proven in Phase III trials---for other diseases, so, traumatic brain injury where you have problems controlling ICP. And to be able to do that medically would be a huge breakthrough, I think, for patient care.

Dr Nevel: Yeah, really exciting. Looking forward to seeing what comes in the future then. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today about your article. I really enjoyed learning more from you during our conversation today and from your article, which I encourage all of our listeners to please read. Lots of good information in that article.

So again, today I've been interviewing Dr Susie Mollan about her article Papilledema Diagnosis and Management, which appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on neuro-ophthalmology.Please be sure to check out Continuum episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. Thank you, Susie.

Dr Mollan: Thank you so much.

Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.