By American Academy of Neurology
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For certain diagnoses and patients who meet clinical criteria, neuromodulation can provide profound, long-lasting relief that significantly improves quality of life.
In this episode, Aaron Berkowitz, MD, PhD, FAAN speaks with Prasad Shirvalkar, MD, PhD, author of the article “Neuromodulation for Neuropathic Pain Syndromes,” in the Continuum® October 2024 Pain Management in Neurology issue.
Dr. Berkowitz is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a professor of neurology at the University of California San Francisco in the Department of Neurology and a neurohospitalist, general neurologist, and clinician educator at the San Francisco VA Medical Center at the San Francisco General Hospital in San Francisco, California.
Dr. Shirvalkar is an associate professor in the Departments of Anesthesia and Perioperative Care, Neurological Surgery, and Neurology at Weill Institute for Neurosciences at the University of California, San Francisco in San Francisco, California.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Neuromodulation for Neuropathic Pain Syndromes
Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum
Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME
Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud
More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com
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@ContinuumAAN
Host: @AaronLBerkowitz
Guest: @PrasadShirvalka
Full episode transcript available here
Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor in Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors, who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME.
Dr Berkowitz: This is Dr Aaron Berkowitz, and today I'm interviewing Dr Prasad Shirvalkar about his article on neuromodulation for painful neuropathic diseases, which appears in the October 2024 Continuum issue on pain management in neurology. Welcome to the podcast, and if you wouldn't mind, please introducing yourself to our listeners.
Dr Shirvalkar: Thanks, Aaron. Yes, of course. So, my name is Prasad Shirvalkar. I'm an associate professor in anesthesiology, neurology and neurological surgery at UCSF. I am one of those rare neurologists that's actually a pain physician.
Dr Berkowitz: Fantastic. And we're excited to have you here and talk to you more about being a neurologist in in the field of pain. So, you wrote a fascinating article here about current and emerging neuromodulation devices and techniques being used to treat chronic pain. And in our interview today, I'm hoping to learn and for our listeners to learn about these devices and techniques and how to determine which patients may benefit from them. But before we get into some of the clinical aspects here, can you first just give our listeners an overview of the basic principles of how neuromodulation of various regions of the nervous system is thought to reduce pain?
Dr Shirvalkar: Yeah, I would love to try. But I will promise you that I will not succeed because I think to a large extent, we don't understand how neuromodulation works to treat pain, to describe or to define neuromodulation. Neuromodulation is often described as using electrical stimuli or a chemical stimuli to alter nervous system activity to really influence local activity, but also kind of distant network activity that might be producing pain. On one level, we don't fully understand how pain arises, specifically how chronic pain arises in the nervous system. It's a huge focus of study from the NIH Heal Initiative and many labs around the world. But acute pain, which is kind of when you stub your toe or you burn your finger, is thought to be quite different from the changes over time and the kind of plasticity that produces emotional, cognitive and sensory dimensions. Really what I think is its own disease, chronic pain, of which there are multiple syndromes when we use neuromodulation, either peripheral nerve stimulation or electrical spinal cord stimulation. One common or predominant theory actually comes from a paper in science from 1967 and people still use it, foundational theory and it's called the gate control theory. Two authors, Melzack and Wall, postulated that at the spinal level, there are, there's a local inhibitory circuit or, you know, there's a local circuit where if you provide input to either peripheral nerves or either spinal cord ascending fibers that to kind of summarize it, there's only so much bandwidth, you know, that nerves can carry. And so that if you literally pass through artificial signals electrically, that you will help gate out or block natural pathological but natural pain signals that might be arising from the periphery or spinal cord. So, you know, one idea is that you are kind of interfering with activity that's arising for chemical neuromodulation. The most common is something known as intrathecal drug infusion drug delivery ITTD for that we quite literally put a catheter in the spinal fluid, you know, at the level of the dorsal horn neurons that we think are responsible for perpetuating or creating the pain.
Where's the pain generator? And you really, you can infuse local anesthetic, you can infuse opioids. And what's nice is you avoid a lot of systemic side effects and toxicity because it goes right to the spinal cord, you know, by infusing in the fluid. So there's a couple of modalities, but I will say just, like maybe all of our living experience, pain is in the brain. And so, we don't really understand, I would say, what neuromodulation is doing to the higher spinal or brain levels.
Dr Berkowitz: Fascinating topic. And yeah, very interesting to hear both what our current understanding is that some of our current understanding is based on data that's 60 years old and that we're actually probably learning about pain by using these modulation techniques, even though we don't really understand how they might be working. So interesting feedback loop there as well as in as in the as in this land. So, your article very nicely organizes the neuromodulation techniques from peripheral to central. So, encourage our listeners to check out your article. And first before we get into some of the clinical applications, just to give the listeners the lay of the land, can you sort of lay out the devices and techniques available for treating pain at each level of the neuroaxis? We'll get into some of the indications in patient selection in a moment, but just sort of to lay out the landscape. What's available that you and your colleagues can use or implant at different levels when we're thinking of referring patients too?
Dr Shirvalkar: Absolutely. So, starting from the least invasive or you know, over the counter patients can purchase themselves a TENS machine. Many folks listening to this have probably tried a TENS machine in the past. And the idea is that you put a couple of pads, at least two. So you have like a dipole or you have a positive and a negative lead and you basically inject some current. So, the pads are attached to a battery and you can put these pads over muscle. If you have areas where myofascial pain or sore muscles, you can put them, frankly, over nerves as well and stimulate nerves that are deeper. Most TENS machines kind of use electrical pulses that occur at different rates. You change the rates, you can change the amplitude and patient can kind of have control for what works best. Then getting slightly more invasive, we can often stimulate electrically peripheral nerves. To do this we implant through a needle, a small wire that consists of anywhere from one electrical contact to four or even eight electrical contact. What I think is particularly cool, like TENS, which is transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation that goes through the skin. Peripheral nerve stimulation aims to stimulate nerves, but you don't have to be right up against the nerve. So, yeah. We typically do this under an ultrasound and you can visualize a nerve like the sciatic nerve, peroneal nerve, or you know, even if someone has an ulnar or a neuropathy, you know, that's the compression. There's a role obviously for surgery and release, but if they have predominantly pain, it's not related to a mechanical problem per se, you could prevent a wire from a peripheral nerve stimulator as far as one centimeter from a nerve and it'll actually stimulate that that modulated and then, you know, kind of progressing even more deeply. The spinal cord stimulation, SCS, it's probably the most ubiquitous or popular form of neuromodulation for pain. People use it for all kinds of diseases. But what it roughly involves is a trial period, which is a placement of either two cylindrical wires, not directly over the spinal cord, but actually in the epidural space, right? So, it's kind of like when you get an epidural injection or doing labor and delivery, when women get epidural catheters, placing spinal cord stimulator leads in that same potential space outside the dura, and you're stimulating through the dura to actually target the ascending dorsal column fibers. And so, you do a trial period or a test drive where the patients get these wires put in. They're coming out of the skin, they're connected to a battery, and they walk around at home for about a week, take careful notes, check in with them, and they keep a diary or a log about how much it helps. Separately. I will say it's hard to distinguish this, the placebo effect often, but you know, sometimes we want to use the placebo effect in clinical practice, but it is a concern, you know, with such invasive things. But you know, if the trial works well, right, you basically can either keep the leads where they are and place a battery internally. And it's for neurologists. You're familiar with deep brain stimulation. These devices are very similar to DVS devices, but they're specifically made for spinal cord stimulation. And there's now like seven companies that offer manufacturers that offer it, each with their own proprietary algorithm or workflow. But going yet more invasive, there is intrathecal drug delivery, which I mentioned, which involves placement of the spinal catheter and infusion of drug into spinal fluid. You could do a trial for that as well.
Keep a patient in the hospital for a few days. You've all probably had experience with lumbar drains. It's something real similar. It just goes the other way. You know, you're infusing drugs, and it could also target peripheral nerves or nerve roots with catheters, and that's often done.
And last but not least, there's brain stimulation. Right now, it's all experimental except for some forms of TMS or transcranial magnetic stimulation, which is FDA approved for migraine with aura. There are tens machine type devices, cutaneous like stimulators where you can wear on your head like a crown or with stickers for various sorts of migraines. I don't really talk about them too much in in the article, but if there's a fast field out there for adjunctive therapy as well,
Dr Berkowitz: Fantastic. That's a phenomenal overview. Just so we have the lay on the land of these devices. So, from peripheral essentially have peripheral nerve stimulators, spinal cord stimulators, intrathecal drug delivery devices and then techniques we use in other areas of neurology emerging for pain DBS deep brain stimulation and TMS transcranial magnetic stimulation. OK let's get into some clinical applications now. Let's start with spinal cord stimulators, which - correct me if I'm wrong - seem to be probably the most commonly seen in practice. Which patients can benefit from spinal cord stimulators? When should we think about referring a patient to you and your colleagues for consideration of implantation of one of these spinal cord stimulator devices?
Dr Shirvalkar: So, you know, it's a great question. I would say it's interesting how to define which patients or diagnosis might be appropriate. Technically, spinal cord stimulators are approved for the treatment of most recently diabetic peripheral neuropathy. And so, I think that's a really great category if you have patients who have been failed by more conservative treatments, physical therapy, etcetera, but more commonly even going back, neuropathic low back pain and neuropathic leg pain. And so, you think about it and it's like, how do you define neuropathic pain. Neuropathic pain is kind of broadly defined as any pain that's caused by injury or some kind of lesion in the somatosensory nervous system. We now broaden that to be more than just somatosensory nervous system, but still, what if you can't find a lesion, but the pain still feels or seems neuropathic. Clinically, if something is neuropathic, we often use certain qualitative descriptors to describe that type of pain burning, stabbing, electric light, shooting radiates. There's often hyperpathia, like it lingers and spreads in space and time as opposed to, you know, arthritis, throbbing dull pain or as opposed to muscle pain might be myofascial pain, but sometimes it's hard to tell. So, there aren't great decision tools, I would say to help decide. One of the most common syndromes that we use spinal cord stimulation for is what used to be called failed back surgery syndrome. We never like to, we now try to shy away from explicitly saying something is someone has failed in their clinical treatment. So, the euphemism is now, you know, post-laminectomy syndrome. But in any case, if someone has had back surgery and they still have a nervy or neuropathic type pain, either shooting down their legs and often there's no evidence on MRI or even EMG that that something is wrong, they might be a good candidate, especially if they're relying on long term medications that have side effects or things like full agonist opioids, you know that that might have side effects or contraindication. So, I would say one, it's not a first line treatment. It's usually after you've gone through physical therapy for sure. So, you've gone through tried some medications. Basically, if chronic pain is still impacting your life and your function in a meaningful way that's restricting the things you want to do, then it it's totally appropriate, I think, to think about spinal cord stimulation. And importantly, I will add a huge predictor of final court stimulation success is psychological composition, you know, making sure the person doesn't have any untreated psychological illness and, and actually making sure their expectations going in are realistic. You're not going to cure anyone's pain. You may and that's, you know, a win, but it's very unlikely. And so, give folks the expectation that we hope to reduce your pain by 50% or we want you to list personally, I like functional goals where you say what is your pain preventing you from doing? We want to see if you can do X,Y, and Z during the trial period. Pharmacostimulation right now. Yeah. Biggest indication low back leg pain, Diabetic peripheral neuropathy. There is also an indication for CRPS, complex regional pain syndrome, a lesser, I'd say less common but also very debilitating pain condition. For better or worse. Tertiary quaternary care centers. You often will see spinal cord stem used off label for neuropathic type pain syndromes that are not explicitly better. That may be for example, like a nerve injury that's peripheral, you know, it's not responding. A lot of this off label use is highly variable and, you know, on the whole at a population level not very successful. And so, I think there's been a lot of mixed evidence. So, it's something to be aware about.
Dr Berkowitz: That's a very helpful framework. So, thinking about referring patients to who have most commonly probably the patients with chronic low back pain have undergone surgery, have undergone physical therapy, are on medications, have undergone treatment for any potential psychological psychiatric comorbidities, and yet remain disabled by this pain and have a reasonable expectation and goals that you think would make them a good candidate for the procedure. Are those similar principles to peripheral nerve stimulation I wasn't familiar with that technique, I'm reading your article, so are the principles similar and if so, which particular conditions would potentially benefit from referral for a trial peripheral nerve stimulation as opposed to spinal cord stimulation?
Dr Shirvalkar: Yeah, the principles are similar overall. The peripheral nerve stimulation, you know, neuropathic pain with all the characteristics you listed. Interestingly enough, just like spinal cord stim, most insurances require a psychological evaluation for peripheral nerve stim as well. And we want to make sure again that their expectations are reside, they have good social support and they understand the kind of risks of an invasive device. But also, for peripheral nerve stem, specifically, if someone has a traumatic injury of an individual peripheral nerve, often we will consider it seeing kind of super scapular stimulation. Often with folks who've had shoulder injuries or even sciatic nerve stimulation. I have done a few peroneal nerve stimulations as well as occipital nerve stimulation from migraine, so oxygen nerve stimulation has been studied a lot. So, it's still somewhat controversial, but in the right patient it can actually be really helpful.
Dr Berkowitz: Very helpful. So, these are patients who have neuropathic pain, but limited to one peripheral nerve distribution as opposed to the more widespread back associated pains, spine associated pains.
Dr Shirvalkar: Yeah, Yeah, that's right. And maybe there's one exception actually to this, which is brachial plexopathy. So, you know, folks who've had something like a brachial plexus avulsion or some kind of traumatic injury to their plexus, there is I think good Class 2 evidence that peripheral nerve stem can work. It falls under the indication. No one is as far as to my knowledge, No one's done an explicit trial, you know PNS randomized controlled trial. Yeah, that's, you know, another area one area where PNS or peripheral nerve stems emerging is actually, believe it or not in myofascial low back pain to actually provide muscle stimulation. There are some, there's a company or two out there that seeks to alter the physiology of the multifidus muscle, one of your spinal stabilizer muscles to really see if that can help low back pain. And they've had some interesting results.
Dr Berkowitz: Very interesting. You mentioned TENS units earlier, transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation as something a patient could get over the counter. When would you encourage a patient to try TENS and when would you consider TENS inadequate and really be thinking about a peripheral nerve stimulator?
Dr Shirvalkar: Yeah, you know TENS we think of as really appropriate for myofascial pain. Folks who have muscular pain, have clear trigger points or taught muscle bands can often get relief from TENS If you turn a TENS machine up too high, you'll actually see muscle infection. So, there's an optimal level where you actually can turn it up to induce, like, a gentle vibration.
And so folks will feel paresthesia and vibrations, and that's kind of the sweet spot. However, I would say if folks have pain that's limited or temporary in time or after a particular activity, TENS can be really helpful. The unfortunate reality is TENS often has very time-limited benefits - just while you're wearing it, you know? So, it's often not enduring. And so that's one of the limitations.
Dr Berkowitz: That's helpful to understand. We've talked about the present landscape in your article, also talk a little bit about the future and you alluded to this earlier. Tell us a little bit about some off label emerging techniques that we may see in future use. Who, which types of patients, which conditions might we be referring to you and your colleagues for deep brain stimulation or transcranial magnetic stimulation or motor cortex stimulation? What's coming down the pipeline here?
Dr Shirvalkar: That's a great question. You know, one of my favorite topics is deep brain stimulation. I run the laboratory that studies intracranial signals trying to understand how pain is processed in the brain. But, believe it or not, chronic pain is probably the oldest indication for which DBS has been studied. the first paper came out in 1960, I believe, in France. And you know, the, the original pivotal trials occurred even before the Parkinson's trial and so fell out of favor because in my opinion, I think it was just too hard or too difficult or a problem or too heterogeneous. You know, many things, but there are many central pain syndromes, you know, poststroke pains, there's often pains associated with Parkinson's disease, epilepsy, or other brain disorders for which we just don't have good circuit understanding or good targets.
So, I think what's coming down the pipeline is a better personalized target identification, understanding where can we stimulate to actually alleviate pain. The other big trend I think in neuromodulation is using closed loop stimulation which means in contrast to traditional electrical stimulation which is on all the time, you know it's 24/7, set it and forget it. Actually, having stimulation respond or adapt to ongoing physiological signals. So that's something that we're seeing in spinal cord stem, but also trying to develop in deep brain stimulation and noninvasive stimulation. TMS is interestingly approved for neuropathic pain in Europe, but not approved by the FDA in the US. And so I think we may see that coming out of pipeline broader indication. And finally, MR guided focused ultrasound is, is a kind of a brand new technique now. You know, focused ultrasound lesions are being used for essential tremor without even making an incision in the skull or drilling in skull. But there are ways to modulate the brain without lesioning. And, you know, I think a lot of research will be emerging on that in the next five years for, for pain and many other neuronal disorders.
Dr Berkowitz: That's fascinating. I didn't know that history that DBS was first studied for pain and now we think of it mostly for Parkinson's and other movement disorders. And now the cycle is coming back around to look at it for pain again. What are some of the targets that are being studied that are thought to have benefit or are being shown by your work and that of others to have benefit as far as DBS targets for, for chronic pain?
Dr Shirvalkar: You know, that's a great question. And so, the hard part is finding one target that works for all patients. So, it may actually require personalization and actually understanding what brain circuit phenotypes do you have with regards to your chronic pain and then based on that, what target might we use? But I will say the older targets. Classical targets were periaqueductal gray, which is kind of the opioid center in your brain. You know, it's thought to just release large amounts of endogenous opioids when you stimulate there and then the ventral pusher thalamus, right. So, the sensory ascending system may be through gait control theory interferes with pain, but newer targets the answer singlet there's some interest in in stimulating there again, it doesn't work for everybody. We found some interesting findings with the medial thalamus as well as aspects of the caudate and other basal ganglion nuclei that we hopefully will be publishing soon in a data science paper.
Dr Berkowitz: Fantastic. That's exciting to hear and encourage all of our listeners to check out your article. That goes into a lot more depth than we had time to do in this short interview, both about the science and about the clinical indications, pros and cons, risks and benefits of some of these techniques. So again, today I've been interviewing Dr Prasad Shirvalkar, whose article on neuromodulation for painful neuropathic diseases appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on pain management in neurology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you again to our listeners for joining today.
Dr Shirvalkar: Thank you for having me. It was an honor.
Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/AudioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.
Opioids may be considered for temporary use in patients with severe pain related to selected neuropathic pain conditions and only as part of a multimodal treatment regimen. Close follow-up when initiating or adjusting opioid therapy and frequent reevaluation during long-term opioid therapy is required.
In this episode, Allison Weathers, MD, FAAN speaks with Friedhelm Sandbrink, MD, FAAN, an author of the article “Opioids and Cannabinoids in Neurology Practice,” in the Continuum® October 2024 Pain Management in Neurology issue.
Dr. Weathers is a Continuum Audio interviewer and the associate chief medical information officer at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.
Dr. Sandbrink is the national program director of Pain Management, Opioid Safety and Prescription Drug Monitoring Programs at the Veterans Health Administration, Uniformed Services University in Bethesda, Maryland.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Opioids and Cannabinoids in Neurology Practice
Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum
Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME
Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud
More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com
Social Media
@ContinuumAAN
facebook.com/continuumcme
Full episode transcript available here
Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal and how to get CME.
Dr Weathers: I'm Dr Allison Weathers. Today I'm interviewing Dr Friedhelm Sandbrink, who is one of the authors of the article Opioids and Cannabinoids for the Practicing Neurologist from the October 2024 Continuum issue on pain management Neurology. Welcome to the podcast and please introduce yourself to our audience.
Dr Sandbrink: Yeah, hi. So, I'm Friedhelm Sandbrink. I'm a neurologist and pain physician. I work at the Washington DC VA Medical Center, where I lead our intercessory pain management team, and I have a role also in the VA central office for pain management. I'm also associate professor, clinical associate professor at George Washington University and at the Uniformed Services University in Bethesda.
Dr Weathers: A lot of expertise, which you obviously brought to this article. And I do want to emphasize before we get started, although the article discusses both opioids and cannabinoids, as I said in the introduction, you worked in specifically on opioids. And so that's the part of the article where we'll focus our conversation today. Of course, I think all of our Continuum Audio topics are really fascinating. I know that some may not resonate as much, especially with our non-neurology listeners as others. Clearly not the case with your articles. I was reading it and preparing for a conversation today. I was really struck by how broadly applicable this topic is, not only to all neurologists but, really, all physicians, and even it should be to all of our listeners. Especially with what happened been going on over the last several years, what's been in the news about the opioid epidemic. And while usually like to start with this question, it feels even more pertinent in your case, what is the most important clinical message of your article?
Dr Sandbrink: So, the role of the opioid, the role of opioid therapy, really, for pain care has changed dramatically over the last many years right? I mean, it's we, we still consider opioids like the most potent analgesic medication for treatment of acute pain. The benefit for chronic pain really has changed right I mean, you know, we- the understanding in that regard and they're controversial. So, they're generally not recommended for chronic treatment for neuropathic pain conditions or for headache, but there are probably situations when opioids are still indicated and may be considered especially for temporary use. So, one example is probably the patient who has severe acute post hepatic neuralgia and we know that we use other medications for that, you know, the gabapentinoids and duloxetine and but they may take several days or weeks to work, right? And we have to titrate them up. And when more acute pain relief is needed, the opioid medication may be may be an option for temporary use. But I think what we need to keep in mind is that when we use it, we need to be informed about how to mitigate the risks, right? What, what are our best ways to reduce harms? And we need to also know the regulatory, you know, situation right I mean, what is that that we have to do nowadays to stay within the frameworks, right? And so, one of the main emphasis on this article is really go through what the clinical that the CDC has now established as the standards for opiate therapy when we use opioids I think we all need to know the rules right I mean, we know what to do to mitigate risks. What is expected from us in regard to use it as safely as possible, right? And that's important for the patient. That's also important for us in our practice.
Dr Weathers: I think very important advice. And this seems so obvious, but at the same time, I think it's worth very clearly stating why is it so important for neurology clinicians and again, really all clinicians, to read this article?
Dr Sandbrink: Yeah. We need to know the words regarding opiate prescribing right in the clinic. You know, the CDC has now issued their opiate practice guide, the Opiate Therapy Guideline. Really, it's a guideline for pain care in 2022. It's an update from 2016 that made some major changes in that regard. And I think we need to know really where we are nowadays in regard to expectations. I think we need to place the opiate therapy appropriately in our armamentarium regarding the many options that we have for pain care. But then when we use them, we need to know what we need to do to make it safe. Right? So, I'm thinking about the prescription drug monitoring programs and the patient education that's expected. We use in our practice an informed consent process even for patients on chronic pain, When and how to interpret urine drug screens, right? And how to issue, and maybe when to issue a naloxone comedication in order to have a rescue medication in case the patient is in a terrible situation. So, these are just things that have become nowadays standards of care and part of our practice. And we need to be familiar with it and use them as we take care of the patients. And for instance, in regard to opiate medication, we need to know about the specific rules regarding telehealth, prescribing of controlled substances, controlled Substances Act and the Ryan Hate Act that mandates in person evaluations for patients when we prescribe controlled substances. That obviously has been somewhat amended or changed or temporarily put on hold during the COVID crisis. And many states now have started developing their own guidance in regard to what's available and what's possible during telehealth. And we need to be familiar about that also.
Dr Weathers: I think those are such important and thoughtful points. I, I've mentioned it several times on this podcast before. I am a clinical informaticist and this is a topic that really lends itself to the EHR being able to help support. So, a lot of the things that you just mentioned, the consents for patients, the prescribing of naloxone, some of the support, clinical decision support can really be done in the electronic health record to help support providers. However, it's also one of those things where if people don't understand what's behind it, it can become a little bit of a crutch. And so, as I was reading the article, I was really struck by how helpful it is to really have that background. I think people can become very dependent and it becomes almost just doing it all for them and, and they lose the- then you can make this argument about probably a lot of the other clinical decision supports in there, but really understanding the why behind a lot of the support that's there around all of the, the tools that are in there to, to support safe opioid prescribing. I think it's so important for that people have that background that the article provides.
Dr Sandbrink: I think often it feels like you're going through a checklist of things to do right and, and, and you do right. But at the same time, as you said, you need to know why you're doing it right And, and I think it's very important for us to know what the rules are and the expectations in regard to standards of care. So, we also know what is the framework that we have to follow, but where can we make modifications? Where can we individualize based on the patient's need? What is really that that is still within our ability to do and how to modify that? Because in the very end, it really is about good care of the patient. We need to know what we are allowed to do, but we also need to know where the limits are right And I hope that that article provides really some information about that, especially as it outlines what the CDC expects. But then also, I think it gives - hopefully, and this is a message that the CDC also has – it really emphasizes that it's about good communication with the patient, truly informing them and about what are the range of options and the limits that we have, but also at the same time never to abandon the patient. You know, I think this is something that we need to understand. It's not really about us. The rules are there to make the care of the patients safer. The rules are not the primary goal itself. It is still patient care. So, in that regard, we need to make sure to never abandon the patient, even if the patient for instance, may come to us and maybe they took more opiates and prescribed or you know, and they ran out early and figure out what exactly was that drove the patient for that, right? I mean, you know, so that we know maybe it is actually worse than pain. Maybe there was something that happened that caused the patient to have a significant increase of it. You know, I think one of the biggest misconceptions is really also that patients who make sure some misuse of medication, that everybody has opioid abuse disorder, addiction. Common, far too common, right? And I think we've learned over the years how common it is. Clearly pain itself, intractable pain is a very strong driver of behavior. If you're in pain, if a patient is in pain, they are desperate often to seek some kind of relief. And taking extra medication in itself, while it's not at all something that we can endorse and tolerate, obviously in many ways, right, we have to still take it as a possible sign of pain control rather than opiate use disorder in itself. So, we need to be very careful of how to assess such a patient and that we guide them into the right direction in regard to the next.
Dr Weathers: That, again, is very important advice, and thinking about how chronic pain on a very different level than acute pain, right? Understanding how these patients are processing pain in a very different way than patients with acute pain. And again, also, I think a very important point that the pendulum has swung kind of back and forth over the years. You know, that they were in pain was another vital sign and it was make sure you're asking your patient about pain. And then all of a sudden it was, oh, we have to be really careful and people should not, nobody should be on these medications, which you- to your point, led to sudden abandonment. And that's not the point. That's not what we should be doing as providers. I know, though, there's very sensitive and challenging situations when you find out a patient though, perhaps taking more than expected because of chronic pain, but perhaps diversion. How have you handled those challenging cases?
Dr Sandbrink: I think diversion needs to be taken obviously very, very seriously. And you know, if a patient is truly diverting medication and there are obviously multiple variations of that, right? I mean, it's like giving it to a family member, for instance. That's one thing. It's on the other hand actually selling it. I think a patient who diverts is such a situation where opioid prescribing has to stop immediately, right? I mean, this is not a patient that we would take off at this point. I mean, so I think it's one of the very, very few occasions where you'd say that you have to just stop it immediately. I think there are other situations really in general, I think the patients who have been on opioids long term, especially in higher doses, I mean the majority of patients are not different. We have to be aware of it. We have to always look out for it. That's part of our risk mitigation. But we also have to make sure that patients on long term opioid therapy, right, that we guide them appropriately. I think the guidance probably in many ways is that we want to make sure whether opioids, the opioid medications still have helps them to achieve their functional goal. Are they truly helpful for the patients in achieving what they aspire to do in regard to their work life, in regard to the family situation. I think a lot of times for patients who have been on opioids long term, it's probably not that it really helps them that much for pain anymore, but they've often made that experience and they try to stop it. Pain gets worse, which is the effect obviously, that that happens with opiates right I mean, the moment you stop them, the opposite of the effect happens right I mean, they become irritable, right? The sleep gets worse, the pain gets worse, right? And it's a temporary phenomenon. And so, when we try to talk to a patient about possibly reducing the medication, I think this is one of the most challenging aspects that we have, that we really look at the patient and try to motivate them to be part of that plan. It's not something that we want to impose on the patient, but rather that we motivate the patient to look towards in the long term, probably more efficient pain care, which is really much more comprehensive pain care using all modalities. And I think one of the things that we learned over the last years is that when we make opiate medication reductions, we have to go very slowly. I think in the past we've talked about a matter of weeks and now the guidance including from the CDC guideline is probably more- closer to 10% per month to reducing it. So, you make reductions that may take many months to a year even, right. And the patient is allowed to help us, guide us how fast we can go. And you're allowed to make pauses if needed for the patient to adjust physiologically to reduction. And we want to go slowly enough that we don't run into an acute withdrawal situation right If you do it very gradually, it's much more manageable for the patient to do that. Then they'll be much more motivated to work with you.
But still, it's a challenge right I think that we do. And I think at the very end, it's really providing good patient care that allows us to build that rapport with the patient that they trust us and that they say, Hey, you know, yes, I'm, I'm willing to work with you, doc, to maybe reduce my reliance on the medication, right? So that that I don't end up on this. You know, one of the things that I sometimes do is asking patients when they come to us this first time and there are a lot of opiate medication maybe is like, what's your goal in this regard? Where do you see yourself in, in five or ten years? Are you thinking you will still be on this medication or would you want to come off? And how can we help you then if that's your goal? So, I think this is all part of our important conversation that we have to have in order to motivate the patient.
Dr Weathers: What I heard you say repeatedly through that. And what I really want to emphasize for our listeners is that the therapeutic relationship with that patient that no matter what that scenario, really keeping them and their goals at the focus and really making it a partnership, not a paternalistic relationship, not dictating to them what the plan will be, but really emphasizing shared decision-making. And I think again, that's such a key take home point for our listeners. And also, even going back to my original question about diversion, what really struck me in your response is even though you said yes, then that was one of the few cases or perhaps even the only case where you said, all right, this is where we have to cut it off immediately. It still wasn't abandoning them as a patient, although you said we have to stop the medication. It wasn't about ending that relationship with that patient necessarily, but ending that therapy option. So really critical in how we think about opioids therapy and our relationship overall with patients.
Dr Sandbrink: So, Allison, maybe I can add on, you know, I think the patient with diversion is the one aspect where we have to look at the population as a whole and the opioid that makes it to somebody else, potentially a vulnerable child, right, even you know, who could die from it, right? Another aspect of probably the patients we mentioned them earlier who have opioid use disorder, who maybe take more than prescribed and where we as a neurologist feel often quite uncomfortable dealing with that. And I think that's so important that at that point we don't abandoned the patient, right. I mean, you know, maybe we want to continue, we don't want to continue the opiate medication for the treatment of the pain. But as we diagnose and initially suspect opiate use disorder and have a conversation about it with a patient, we need to guide them to therapy. It's a treatable condition, right? It's an untreated, it's, it's actually rather lethal in many situations, right? So, we have to make sure that we provide an integrated access to the treatment or we have a warm hand off to somebody who will continue that and not abandon the patient in regard to that pain care, as we said earlier also, right? I mean, because that second condition really doesn't obviously I mean in any way that the pain is any better. No, I mean it's a common concurrent situation and we need to make sure that they still have the better pain care possible.
Dr Weathers: Again, it's a really key point for our listeners as and as I emphasized at the beginning, regardless of their subspecialty or specialty or even if they're physicians, I hope for everybody listening they can take away something from this. How did you become interested in pain management? I know that this was something that that you became interested in even when still in training. What struck you about this?
Dr Sandbrink: So, yeah, so my initial fellowship actually after residence was clinical neurophysiology. So, you know, a lot of the spine and different nerve conditions really was, was, but then when I began practice, clearly longitudinal care, chronic disease management, I think many of us in neurology do that right That, that became an emphasis. And I think building that accord with the patients right and, and, and that having that ability to provide pain care is something that really worked out very well. I think I love teamwork and part of teamwork pain care in in our setting is a collaborative approach right You have other disciplines, physical therapist, psychologist, right? You know, you have intervention and nonintervention provider. I think nowadays we even have integrative modalities available to us. So, I'm working together on a team, trying to optimize it here with many team members that we have with everybody bringing that personal expertise is something that I really cherish.
Dr Weathers: I feel like that's such a great example and I feel like a lot of people don't necessarily think about this specialty as one that is, that is collaborative in that way. And it really is. So, I, I think that's a wonderful way to highlight it. I always like to end on a hopeful note. And I know that there hasn't been necessarily a lot of hope or positive news in regards to, to opioid use, opioid therapy in the last several years. But are there developments that give you hope that you're excited about?
Dr Sandbrink: So, you know, I think there are probably two things I would mention. On one hand, I think patients are so much more aware now about the risk of opioids. So that is actually much easier to look and get them motivated about comprehensive pain care. There's much more interest in integrative modalities. Patients nowadays would be much more willing to maybe try acupuncture or mindfulness or yoga or Tai chi. So, I think that's actually a really nice development in that regard. But if I think about opioids specifically, I think the availability of buprenorphine as a medication, it's certainly something we should mention in this interview here, right? I mean, buprenorphine is now increasingly used for pain as well, not just in the higher dosage for opiate use disorder. It really is a good choice for patients who have.
pain conditions, chronic pain conditions, severe pain and to require a daily opioid, especially in regard to safety aspect when the patient has medical conditions or mental health conditions that may put them at higher risk and they have to be on an opiate anyway. This is really something that I think has changed our practice. As you know, we don't have to rely on the X waiver anymore. Anybody with a DA license can prescribe buprenorphine. Even for opiate disuse disorder, it really has become something that I think many of us integrate much more into our practice and I want to encourage the listener to really look into that direction.
Dr Weathers: Excellent advice and I'll actually refer our listeners who are subscribers of Continuum to reference, specifically, Table 4 where you dive into the buprenorphine.
It's just a fantastic table, as are all the tables. It really goes into detail of the commonly prescribed opioids for pain with the special characteristics and the conversion of morphine equivalent, but especially for this one about how to prescribe the details of us. Again, when I was preparing for this, I said wow. Like for me as a neurohospitalist and thinking about when I'm on service, how to use it, when to use it, I thought it was incredibly useful for that management of patients, especially as a powerful point of care tool. Well, thank you so much for being here with me today for this great conversation.
Dr Sandbrink: Yeah, thank you. That was my pleasure.
Dr Weathers: Again, today I've been interviewing Dr Friedhelm Sandbrink, whose article on opioids and cannabinoids for the practicing neurologist, written with Dr Nathaniel Schuster, appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on Pain Management and Neurology. To learn more about the topics of opioids and cannabinoids, be sure to read the full article. And don't forget to listen to Continuum audio episodes from this and other issues. Thank you to our listeners for joining today.
Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/AudioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.
Orofacial pain comprises many disorders with different etiologies and pathophysiologies. A multidisciplinary approach combining medication, physical therapy, and procedural and psychological strategies is essential in treating patients with orofacial pain.
In this episode, Teshamae Monteith, MD, FAAN, speaks with Meredith Barad, MD; Marcela Romero-Reyes, DDS, PhD, authors of the article “Orofacial Pain,” in the Continuum® October 2024 Pain Management in Neurology issue.
Dr. Monteith is the associate editor of Continuum® Audio and an associate professor of clinical neurology at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine in Miami, Florida.
Dr. Barad is a clinical associate professor of anesthesiology, perioperative and pain medicine, and neurology and neurological sciences and codirector of the Stanford Facial Pain Program at Stanford Medicine in Stanford, California.
Dr. Romero-Reyes is a clinical professor and director of the Brotman Facial Pain Clinic and Department of Neural and Pain Sciences at the University of Maryland in Baltimore, Maryland.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Orofacial Pain
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More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com
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Host: @headacheMD
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Full episode transcript available here
Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum 's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME.
Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio.
Today I'm interviewing Drs Meredith Barad and Marcela Romero-Reyes about their article on oralfacial pain, which appears in the October 2024 Continuum issue on pain management and neurology. Welcome to the podcast, ladies. How are you?
Dr Barad: Excellent.
Dr Romero-Reyes: Fine, happy to be here.
Dr Monteith: I am so happy to see you. I mean, I think both of you I've known for like ten years.
Dr Romero-Reyes: Yeah.
Dr Barad: Yes.
Dr Monteith: So why don't you introduce yourselves? While I know you, our audience, some of them, may not know you.
Dr Romero-Reyes: I'm Dr Marcella Romero Reyes. I am a neuropathial pain specialist, clinical professor, and director of the Provident Special Pain Clinic here in the University of Maryland School of Dentist.
Dr Monteith: Excellent.
Dr Barad: My name is Meredith Barad. I'm a clinical associate professor at Stanford and I work- I'm the codirector of our headache and facial pain clinic in the Stanford pain management clinic.
Dr Monteith: Well, first of all, thank you for writing this article. It is extremely detailed and up-to-date and very informative. And in neurology, I think we don't get enough pain management.
I'm interested in both of your backgrounds and, you know, what led you even to become an expert in this area? And both of you have complementary areas. I think we can see in the quality of this article. But why don't we start with you, Dr Romero-Reyes?
Dr Romero-Reyes: Well, for me to get interested in orofacial pain, I will say more than an interest was like a calling that I wanted to take care of this patient population. So, as you know, my background is dentistry and at that time I was very interested in patients with complex medical issues. And was the time I was- I started to be interested in temporomandibular disorders. But what really picked completely my attention was the first time I saw a patient with trigeminal neuralgia. This was my last year in dental school. This patient already had, like, almost a full upper quadrant of teeth extracted where pain was not resolved. So when the patient came to us and I did my exam and, you know, and I triggered the pain, the sharp shoot electrical pain, that really broke my heart. And I took an x-ray and I didn't find anything that will explain it was something wrong until I talked to my professor and he said, no, this is medical. There's nothing wrong with it, with that tooth and needs to be, you know, followed with proper management and medication. And for me, that was like, wow, what a proper diagnosis and proper management can take care of these of these patients. And when the patient got better, that really said, oh, you know, I want to do this.
Dr Monteith: That's a crazy story. It's always that last patient of the day.
Dr Romero-Reyes: And you know, think about it, at least in dentistry at that time, I learned about trigeminal neuralgia from a book, right, my classes. But when you see the patient, this is it. That completely, you know, made me say yes, I want to study this.
Dr Monteith: Yeah. And unfortunately, that's not an uncommon scenario where patients with trigeminal neuralgia get, you know, their extractions and pain can sometimes be more complicated. What about you, Dr Barad?
Dr Barad: Well, I guess I'm sort of like the opposite. So as a neurologist and a trained pain physician, I saw a lot of patients with neuralgic pain and headache pain, but I also saw many patients who would say, I have TMJ. And as, as Dr Romero has educated us, that's like saying I have shoulder or I have knee. But I quickly realized that I needed to work with a multidisciplinary team to really understand more about orofacial pain. It's not just neuralgic. There are other ideologies. And so that's how we started working together and that's how we practice in our clinic at Stanford.
Dr Monteith: So, why don't you tell us about the objectives of this article?
Dr Barad: I think our objectives were to help the neurologist broaden the differential diagnosis on facial pain to encompass below the nose, the oral cavity, the temporal mandibular joint. And to just think more broadly about facial pain and to understand some of the more recent diagnostic criteria that have been developed for facial pain and to- how to diagnose properly and how to begin treatment for some of the other conditions that are non-neurologic.
Dr Romero-Reyes: And I think I will ask about what Dr Barad say that also to bring awareness to the neurologist about the vast classification of oral facial pain disorder, craniofacial and orofacial. I think that was also a key thing too. And also, to show how well we can work together, you know, the multi-disciplinary management that is indicated for these cases.
Dr Monteith: Cool. And you mentioned some of the new diagnostic criteria. I want to talk just briefly about the new international classification of orofacial pain, ICOP. When did that come out and what was the process there in really fine-tuning the diagnosis of orofacial pain disorders?
Dr Romero-Reyes: So, in 2019 the orofacial head pain especially interest group of the International Association for the Study of Pain, the International Network for Orofacial Pain and Related Disorders methodology and the American Academy of Orofacial Pain and the International Headache Society. They partnered together to develop to develop this international classification of orofacial pain. And these, I think- it's such a great effort, you know, all the main people doing pain about this area, and goes very well together with the international classification of headache disorders. So, for example, you know, some disorders that International Classification of Headache Disorders doesn't present such as and the ICOP, International Classification of Orofacial Pain, presents, like the persistent idiopathic dental Viola pain. You have it in the ICOP. It's not, you know, mentioned in the in the International Classification of Headache Disorders, as well as, also we have the- I think it’s item number five, the orofacial representations headache disorder or primary headache disorder. The ICOP gives you a nice, clean diagnostic criteria.
Dr Monteith: So, I guess I would ask Dr Barad with this classification in mind, how useful is it in neurology practice? And I know obviously you see patients with pain, but how useful even in managing patients with headache?
Dr Barad: I think it's great because I've had a lot of dentists and ENT doctors who have started referring patients to me because they've realized that they've increased their awareness about orofacial pain and realized that pain in the sinuses, for example, accompanied by light sensitivity and sound sensitivity and rhinorrhea, may not be a recurrent monthly sinus infection.
And so that kind of broadens our awareness of these of these disorders. And it's been, it's brought new patients into my clinic that we can help and treat. So that's been exciting.
Dr Monteith: And what about in the world of dentistry? Obviously, I think people in orofacial pain worlds are highly attuned to this, but I would hope this would hopefully have been disseminated into dentists and regular practice at C patients with trigeminal neuralgia.
Dr Romero-Reyes: Going back for the, what you were discussing about the ICOP. So, it's what we're trying now as a new specialty. Well that we have been for the last four years, but finally in 2020 we have been recognized by the American Mental Association to disseminate this knowledge. But also, you know, can you imagine in in the realm in orofacial pain or dentistry have a patient with this recurrent pain, phonophobia, photophobia, throbbing dental pain is throbbing, but it's nothing wrong with your tooth. And that did they tell you that actually you have an orofacial or facial migraine or a neurovascular or facial pain. How crazy, right? And that is managed with migraines therapy. So it really, you know, to make you think like that. Wow, so these weird tooth things that used to come every week or these with facial pain, it's nothing to deal with, you know, with my teeth or any structure, you know, inside my mouth.
Dr Barad: It sounds to me like what you're saying is that we've, this has encouraged patient education as well, not only interdisciplinary education, but really helping provide an explanation for the patient about what is going on with them. So rather than just getting sent away to another tertiary specialist, the patient is getting a more robust understanding of what's going on.
Dr Romero-Reyes: And going back to what you were saying about trigeminal neuralgia, you know, at least in dentistry also we're teaching now a new awareness like for two things, right? What about from the neurology setting? The patient has captured electrical pain. The trigger is intraoral. If it's pain inside your mouth, the first practitioner you're going to see who will be maybe the dentist that the dentist knows that could be a possibility of a disorder that doesn't deal with teeth, but also, it's important and we discussed that in our paper. What about that actually that weird trigger actually, it's not a general. What about if it's a cracked tooth has that singing sensation too. So, you see, it's two ways; one, to teach dentist to learn about this disorder and you know, we have learned, but you know, it's much more awareness now that this is great that, you know, these disorders you're not going to treat with dental procedures. Right? It's medical and vice versa, that the neurologist also has the awareness that oh, central trigger. Have you gone to the to the dentist? Have you checked that out?
Dr Monteith: So what should neurologist know about dental sources of pain?
Dr Barad: Well, maybe they should read the paper?
Dr Romero-Reyes: Yeah. Yeah, you need to read the paper. Yeah.
Dr Monteith: Top three, don't treat this with gabapentin.
Dr Romero-Reyes: Like well, dental pain is not going to be resolved with gabapentin. That would need to make a diagnosis if and you know it's that examination that come comes with a radiographic evidence that shows that maybe could be a cavity or could be a problem. You know in the in the practical tissues of the tooth that is given a symptomatology. Not only dental could be a lot of different disorders inside there now that can produce pain that also the readers can check our paper and learn about and see the wonderful interesting pictures that we have added there.
Dr Monteith: Yeah. And so why don't we talk a little bit about TMD disorders and what is the new thinking around these conditions?
Dr Romero-Reyes: Well, I will say for the last decade, maybe a little bit more has been a change in the evidence. They evidence based understanding of the theologia pathophysiologist and for mandibular disorders. Imagine that what's the shift in the in the paradigm that in dentistry prevails for a long, long time. That is that really focus and I will call it the pathological mechanistic point of view. What I mean by that I was focusing your bite, your occlusion, how the relation between in your maxilla mandible. That was the only issues that would create in temporomandibular disorders. So now we know that temporomandibular disorders are complex, are multifactorial and you need to understand them and see them within a biopsychosocial framework. And this dictate the main way to management for the primary way that we start will be conservative, reversible and basing evidence that the best evidence available that we have.
Dr Monteith: And what about for trigeminal neuralgia? Is there newer kind of classification around trigeminal neuralgia? and what are some key points that we should consider when diagnosing these patients and treating these patients, Dr Barad?
Dr Barad: There haven't been any new diagnostic criteria, but I would say that there's been an increased awareness that classical trigeminal neuralgia is more likely than not related to neurovascular compression or we should say, maybe I should say neurovascular contact or compression. There is a developing grading system of that. That's an evolution as we speak. I think it's an exciting time for facial neuralgia because it's opened the door for us to look at other neuralgia also as vascular compressions and to think about how we can treat them with decompression or possibly with peripheral nerve stimulation or medicine or Botox. Or who knows what's the future is going to hold? But it is I think a change in the way we are thinking about the definition of neuralgia of, of trigeminal neuralgia in that is caused by a compression which is different than other neuralgia in other parts of the body. I should, I just want to classify there's about maybe ten twelve percent of people who present with classical trigeminal neuralgia who there is not evidence on imaging of a vascular contact or compression. But the majority of cases do seem to have some somewhere in the spectrum from contact to compression.
Dr Monteith: Even contact I find to be a bit vague sometimes say, well, thanks for letting me know that they're touching. But and then some of the neurosurgeons have different perspective when you open the patient up. So, I didn't know about the grading.
Dr Barad: Yeah, I think you've hit on it exactly like that is a big problem in the field right now. How do we understand what patients will be the best patients for surgery? And it used to be that you have the classical trigeminal neurologist symptomology plus some imaging that shows something versus nothing. And now we're getting into parsing out the imaging and trying to understand who's the best candidate for that with the imaging.
Dr Monteith: Dr Romero, anything to add?
Dr Romero-Reyes: No, that I agree about that, you know, and I think now maybe for the patients that I have seen with that, because under partial pain settings, sometimes we're the ones that, oh, actually what you have is trigeminal neuralgia idea, you know, so we start to have our small disciplinary management, but you know, when they come out, I already have an MRI doctor, but, and they say that these are compression, but what degree? And some patients that they don't have symptoms can have a compression. And I'm thinking maybe right that later on when we have more time and maybe nicer imaging, we're going to really find out or if it's the development angle is the measurement has some other characteristics, who knows. So, I think for trigeminal neuralgia, the things is still evolving, right? For our understanding. I have to help us to make a more- I will not say definitive diagnosis, but maybe some parameters will change in the future.
Dr Monteith: So now we have a lot of people listening, international folks listening, and they always want some treatment, a tip, some clinical tips. So, can you give us a little bit of clinical insight to how to treat patients with trigeminal neuralgia and when you're seeing patients for second and third opinions, what might you see that may explain why their pain is not well controlled? We all get into interdisciplinary care, but in terms of pharmacology?
Dr Barad: I think people are a little reluctant to use some of these medications that neuromodulating medications because, in general, it's an older population and they're rightly worried about falls and dizziness and confusion and low sodium. And so, I think they hesitate to go to the doses that are needed to help with pain control. So, a lot of our, my initial management is gingerly and gently titrating that to try to get to see if we can get control of the pain.
Dr Monteith: Dr Romero?
Dr Romero-Reyes: I could add, for example, one thing that I in the realm of facial pain addition to pharmacology. Let's say that we have a patient with that intraoral trigger and we were able to localize that intraoral trigger. Sometimes we can even also use topical medication. And in the topical medication we can use, for example, an anticonvulsant, let's say gabapentin, oxcarbazepine for example, to add in the cream. And we use, we call it a neurosensory stent in my looks like a Nygard, but it's not a Nygard that can cover that area. So, the patient can add that cream very delimited in that area. And that helps, you know, can help with the pain sometimes. What we can find is that, at least in my, in my experience, and that when we add a topical, maybe we don't need to increase as much. The systemic medication, of course, depends from case to case.
Dr Monteith: So those are two great tips. Not being afraid to push those doses up in a safe manner and maybe with monitoring as well as of maybe utilizing more topicals. And I think we could probably hear a lot more from you on topicals at some other point. But thank you also for the table. I think it's, it's really nice the way all the treatments are laid out. So what other cranial neuralgia advances have there been?
Dr Barad: I would say the main advancements have been in applying the knowledge that neurosurgeons have learned from microvascular decompression of the trigeminal nerve, to the glossopharyngeal nerve, to the geniculate nerve, and really trying to optimize imaging and optimize neurosurgical techniques to try to treat these neuralgias. If the patient has failed medicine, if the patient is a good candidate for surgery and if the patient desires that.
Dr Monteith: Great. So now let's talk about multidisciplinary approaches. I know both of you are big fans of that, and you may do things a little bit differently at your institution, especially with your background. So maybe Dr Romero, do you want to tell us about your experience? And then we'll have Dr Brad.
Dr Romero-Reyes: But in my experience from study management, let's say depend, of course, also the started we're talking about. But let's say for example about temporomandibular disorders, you know that for TMD is one of these overlapping pain conditions and we know that TMD is common with primary headache disorders, especially migraine. So, if we're able to utilize, you know, the expertise of neurologist specializing headache. With me, for example, or a facial pain person that is that is helping you manage a patient with this comorbidity. This is super effective because we know the presence of TMD in a migraineur can help the disorder to, to progress some more chronic form. So, you see, this is super important and effective to provide, you know, optimal care for the patient. For example, in the patients that I do see with neuralgias, like in addition to trigeminal neuralgia, let's say nervous intermediates neuralgia, that sometimes they can come to me like, oh, the pain is in my ear and my EMT or, or I think maybe it's my TMJ and for the pain is charged shooting inside the ear doesn't follow the for the diagnosis of temporomandibular disorders. And I can maybe help the patient to get a proper imaging or already penalize it with a neurologist to make sure. And maybe at least my way will be maybe I'm the one that can catch those disorders and help, you know, the patient to go for the next step.
Dr Barad: I think Marcella, Dr Romero-Reyes, hit on a nice point that maybe this group is not as familiar with and that is that temporal mandibular dysfunction TMD is a, is one of the disorders that we call chronic overlapping pain conditions or COCPs. And those include headache. it's not, it's not specified fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, chronic pelvic pain and several other chronic pain syndromes. And they suggest a central sensitization to one's pain. And the way that we treat centrally sensitized pain is not just through medications, it's in a biopsychosocial framework because we see much higher rates of depression and anxiety in this group. And so, using a pain psychologist to help the patient develop coping strategies to help them manage their pain, using a physical therapist to help them learn this, the stretching exercises and using medications to help with not only with their pain syndrome, but also sometimes with their psych comorbidities. And then additionally, procedures sometimes play a role in the process to help usually turn down the pain. Interestingly, when we look at trigeminal neuralgia, we see much less overlapping pain disorders. It's much rarer to see somebody with TN who has other COCPs or the kind of chronic levels of depression and anxiety that we see in these patients. So, the approach is very different, and I think it requires the use of a multidisciplinary team to help guide the treatment pathways for these patients.
Dr Monteith: Today, I've been interviewing Drs Meredith Barad and Marcelo Romero-Reyes, whose article on orofacial pain appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on pain management and neurology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today.
Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/AudioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.
In the patient populations treated by neurologists, central neuropathic pain develops most frequently following spinal cord injury, multiple sclerosis, or stroke. To optimize pain relief, neurologists should have a multimodal and individualized approach to manage central neuropathic pain.
In this episode, Lyell K. Jones Jr, MD, FAAN, speaks with Charles E. Argoff, MD, author of the article “Central Neuropathic Pain,” in the Continuum October 2024 Pain Management in Neurology issue.
Dr. Jones is the editor-in-chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology® and is a professor of neurology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
Dr. Argoff is a professor of neurology and vice chair of the department of neurology, director of the Comprehensive Pain Management Center, and director of the Pain Management Fellowship at Albany Medical College in Albany, New York.
Additional Resources
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Full episode transcript available here
Dr Jones: This is Doctor Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME.
Dr Jones: This is Doctor Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology. Today I'm interviewing Dr Charles Argoff, who recently authored an article on central neuropathic pain in the latest issue of Continuum covering pain management. Dr Argoff is a neurologist at Albany Medical College where he's a professor of Neurology, and he serves as vice chair of the Department of Neurology and program director of the Pain Medicine Fellowship Program there. Dr Argoff, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners?
Dr Argoff: I'm Charles Argoff. It's a pleasure to be here and thank you so much for that kind introduction.
Dr Jones: I've read your article. Many of our listeners are going to read your article. Wonderful article, extremely helpful. Closes a lot of gaps, I think, that exist in our field about understanding central neuropathic pain, treating central neuropathic pain. You now, Doctor Argoff, you have the attention of a huge audience of mostly neurologists. What's the biggest point you would like to make to them, or the most important practice-changing advice that you would give to them?
Dr Argoff: I think it's at least twofold. One is that central neuropathic pain is not as uncommon as you think it might be, and it occurs in a variety of settings that are near and dear to a neurologist's heart, so to speak. And secondly, although we live in an evidence-based world and we want to practice evidence-based medicine - and I'm proud to have formerly been a member of the Quality Standard subcommittee, which I think has changed its name over time. And so, I understand the importance of, you know, treatment based upon evidence - the true definition of evidence-based medicine is using the best available evidence in making decisions about individual patients. And so, I would urge those who are listening that, although there might not be as robust evidence currently as you’d like, please don't not take the time to try to treat the patient in front of you o r at least acknowledge the need for treatment and work with your colleagues to address the significant neuropathic pain associated with that central neurological disorder. Because it can be life-changing in a positive way to make even a dent and to really work with somebody, even though not clear-cut always what's going to work for an individual patient.
Dr Jones: Well said. I'm glad you brought that up. So, to put it a different way, absence of evidence is not an excuse for absence of treatment. Right?
Dr Argoff: Exactly. And I think that, I hope that we would agree that especially in neurology, what we do is about as far from, ‘Yep, you've got strep throat, here’s that antibiotic that's going to work for you and all you have to do is take the medicine.’ I mean, most of what we do is nowhere near that.
Dr Jones: It's complicated stuff. And this is a complicated topic. And I'll tell you, I learned a lot reading your article. I think most of us in neurology and medicine, when we hear the term neuropathic pain, it feels roughly synonymous with peripheral generators of that pain, such as diabetic neuropathy or posttraumatic neuralgia. But as you mentioned, there's central mechanisms for pain generation. How is it defined? What is central neuropathic pain?
Dr Argoff: It's defined as pain caused by a lesion or disease of the central somatosensory system . Though neuropathic pain in general is pain associated with the lesion of the somatosensory system; and to your point, that can be peripheral, which of course is outside the spinal cord, or brain or central, which is within the spinal cord or brain. And central neuropathic pain is defined specifically as pain caused by a lesion or disease of the central somatosensory system. That's either brain or spinal cord. But there's an interesting follow-up, and I'm going to ask if you could remind me because I know we're talking about definitions now, but I'll just bring something up and we can come back to it. What's interesting about that is that my - whoever 's listening, that's not to say that they're not connected. And in fact, they are very much connected.
And there's very new work, which I included in the article, down at Washington University in Saint Louis, that suggests you can actually affect central neuropathic pain by addressing peripheral input to the central nervous system. If you remember Ken Casey at the University of Michigan at the World Pain Congress in Vancouver, British Columbia many years ago, he ended his talk on pain with a limerick, of which the last line was, Remember, there ain't no such thing as pain without a brain. And so that kind of summarizes that.
Dr Jones: Well, and it goes both ways too, right? We know that there's some central sensitization that can happen with peripheral generators, right? So we really have to think about the whole circuit.
Dr Argoff: Yes. And that's been sometimes the bane of my existence as a colleague of others and a sometimes debater. Is the pain central? Is it peripheral? Well, it's everything. And it's important to know as many of the mechanisms and many of the targets that you could use for treatment so that you can affect the best outcome for your patients.
Dr Jones: Yeah, so - and you mentioned in your article what some of the common causes of central neuropathic pain are. What are the big ones in your experience?
Dr Argoff: So, the biggest ones are spinal cord injury-related pain, MS-related pain - and I'd like to come back to a point and just if I do the third one - and central poststroke pain. And what struck me, I think Tim Vollmer published a survey about the incidence, the prevalence of ongoing pain in patients with multiple sclerosis. And it blew my mind several years ago because it was incredibly high. Like in this survey of MS patients who, you never hear about pain, you hear about these modifying treatments, all the wonderful expanses that have been made. I mean, like seventy something percent of people say they have moderate to severe pain. And when you think about how sensory processing occurs, it makes perfect sense that a demyelinating disorder is going to interrupt the flow of information for a person to feel normal.
Dr Jones: Yeah, I think it's a good example of, there are things that we tend to focus on as clinicians where we worry about deficit and function and capacity. But if we're patient-centered and we ask patients what they care about, pain usually moves up higher on the list. And so, I think that's why we, it's maybe underrecognized with some of those central disorders, right?
Dr Argoff: I think so, and I and I think you hit the nail on the head that - and we're also trained that way. I tell this to my patients very often so that they are reassured when I examine them and I say, and I tell them that everything looked pretty OK. It's not a medical term, I understand that. Because what we do in a typical neurological exam, even if it's detailed, doesn't really address all the intricacies of the nervous system. So it's really a big picture and sensory processing and especially picking up sensory deficits; you know, we use quantitative sensory testing and research studies and things like that, but bedside testing may not reveal the subtle changes. And when we don't see overt changes, we often think - that can lead someone to think that everything is OK and it's not.
Dr Jones: So, when you when you see a patient who you've diagnosed with a central mechanism, so central neuropathic pain, how do you approach the management of those patients, Dr Argoff?
Dr Argoff: I always review what treatments and what approaches have been addressed already. And I see if - a handful of time, we actually just submitted a paper for publication regarding this in a group of patients with pelvic pain who had untreated, difficult-to-treat chronic pelvic pain, seen all the urological kinds, gynecological things. Look, we picked up two patients who had unknown MS. So, it's just interesting when it comes down to that level.
And we also picked up some patients who had subacute combined degeneration. So that's another central kind of disorder as well. Again, the neurologist in us says to make sure that we have specific diagnosis that underlies the central neuropathic pain. And so interestingly, of course, for somebody with MS - or even though it's uncommon, it could be more than one. Somebody with MS might have a stroke, somebody with MS might have a cord injury due to cervical, you know, joint disc disease. Not to overcomplicate things. Know the lay of the land, know the conditions, know what you're battling and lay out so that you can treat the treatable; you want to treat whatever you can correct? So, for MS you simply want to have the best disease-modifying treatment on board, tolerable and appropriate for that person, and so on. And then you really want to take a history of past treatments - and your treatments can be everything and anything, including behavioral modification, physical rehabilitative approaches, as well as pharmacologic management. That's - as I think I put in my article, we concentrated in the article on pharmacologic management because honestly, that's what most patients are looking for, is ‘what can we, what can you do to help me now, in addition to what I can do myself.’ And that's what we typically think of. There are also some more interventional approaches, invasive options, that have developed over time. And of course, those are the ones, some of them, especially in neuromodulation, that we have the least information about, but it appears somewhat promising.
Dr Jones: No, that's exactly what we need to hear. And you also mentioned something that I think is important. This is a common theme throughout the issue because I think it's true for the management of many different types of pain and interdisciplinary approach. In other words, not just honing in on pharmacotherapy or neuromodulation as a one-size-fits-all magic pill, right? So, that - tell us a little bit more about that interdisciplinary approach and how that's important for these patients.
Dr Argoff: So, let me back up and give an example. Let's look at Botox for chronic migraine.
So, the pre-M studies that led to the approval of Botox for chronic migraine: two treatment sessions versus two random, two placebo session in different patients. The mean headache frequency was, let's say, fifteen to twenty in each group. It was like seventeen, eighteen, something like that. But the mean pain headache day reduction was somewhere between four and five after two treatments compared to a lesser, a lower number in the placebo group.
So, if you think about that, that means that you went from nineteen, let's say, to fourteen, thirteen, or twelve. Want to be generous, eleven or ten. But that means that person, everyone 's happy. We use treatment. We have better data than that because the longer you use it, the better it gets in general, but it means that people are still going to be symptomatic. So that drives home in a different painful disorder the importance of yes, treatment can be effective, but it's not the only treatment that a person is going to likely need. And so, I think that's what's so important about multidisciplinary approach. I- we may affect positive changes, reduction in pain intensity with a particular pharmacologic agent, but we don't anticipate it's like taking an antibiotic or a strep throat, not curative. And so, we want to, early on, to explain that logically, methodically, step by step. There are many options for you and we're going to, you know, systematically go through them. And I may need to call in some colleagues to help because I don't do everything. No one does everything, right? But don't feel as if there isn't any hope because there is. If we were to use intraspinal Baclofen for someone who has painful spasticity following a stroke or a spinal cord injury, combining that with physical therapy might give more effect, maybe synergistic. Some targeted muscles, some local muscles may not respond as well to the intraspinal Baclofen, so is that - what can we do? Well, we could use oral agents or we might be able to target that with botulinum toxin, and so on and so forth. So it's limitless, virtually, in what you can do.
Dr Jones: There's kind of setting expectations and letting people know that you, you're going to need a lot of different approaches, right? To sort of get them the best possible outcome.
Dr Argoff: Yeah, I think that's so important. And of course, no matter what we try to set out, there are going to be individuals - for those of you who are listening, we all know - who expect to be cured yesterday. That might be challenging for us not only to actually complete, but also, it's challenging for some individuals to appreciate that we're with them, we're going to work with them. It’ll be a process, but we've got your back.
Dr Jones: Great. And you know, this is a question that I get all the time from patients and from other clinicians is, you know, what about cannabinoids? What's the role of cannabinoids for the management of central neuropathic pain?
Dr Argoff: First, I'll say that the short answer to that is we don't know. The second part of my response would be, there is new evidence that it might be helpful in the acute treatment of migraine. And I'm happy to say that the editor of this edition of Continuum is the person who developed that evidence, and it's been recently presented at the American Headache Society.
But the challenge and the conundrum that we all face is, everywhere within our nervous system where there's pain being processed, there are endocannabinoid receptors. There also happen to be opioid receptors, but that's a separate issue. And the endocannabinoid system, the peripheral or central, you know, CB1, CB2, is very, very important, but we haven't figured out a way of harnessing that knowledge in developing an analgesic, an effective analgesic. And part of that is that there are so many chemical agents that have cannabinoid properties and there are different… the right balance has not yet been found. But even the legalization, the available of medical cannabis, hasn't led to a standardized approach to evaluating if a preparation does help. And that's part of the conundrum. It's like saying, ‘does medicine work?’Well, yeah, sometimes. But which medicine? Which receptor? How do you harness the right ratio between TBD, THC, other active agents, et cetera? And I think maybe as we go forward in the future, we’ll be able to do that with - more precise.
I mentioned Dr Schuster's study in which he had defined ratios of THC effect and CBD and was able to clearly show effect based upon that. But the average person going into a dispensary doesn't really get that. We don't get to study that. Each person's an NF1 and it's not very helpful to understand how to do that. I would say, as I'm sure you remember, there was a practice parameter that was published probably over a decade ago about using cannabis symptomatically in different neurological disorders. And I believe that it was what they studied or what they reviewed was helpful in MS-related urinary discomfort and spasticity, but not necessarily pain.
Dr Jones: And we're still in the early days of studying it, right?
Dr Argoff: Yes.
Dr Jones: That's part of the point, as we got started late and we're still waiting for high-quality evidence. And I guess, if you look at the horizon, Dr Argoff, or the future of management of central neuropathic pain, what's going to be the next big thing?
Dr Argoff: One of the joys of being asked to get involved in a project like this is that inevitably we learn so many new things because, you know, that's when anyone says, oh, you must be an expert, I say, I don't know anything because I'm always learning something new. One of the reasons why I moved to Albany Medical College about seventeen years ago was to be able to further my interest in studying why people benefit from topical analgesics by working with a scientist at Albany Med who studied keratinocyte neurochemistry and its impact on pain transmission. And that's a separate issue, but it indicates my love for the peripheral nervous system. And one of my thoughts historically, that is, what the central nervous system processes is what it processes and it might get input, as you mentioned earlier, from the peripheral nervous system, so that topical agents could be dampening central mechanisms. And lo and behold, as I was doing research for this article, I learned that people doing peripheral nerve blocks - so blocking peripheral input at the into the spinal cord - at Washington University, Simon Guterian and colleagues, demonstrate that they could give prolonged benefit from central pain by blocking peripheral input. And that's wild because certainly the nervous system is a two-way street. It's an understatement. What I really found amazing was that, again, blocking input helped the injured central nervous system to behave better.
Dr Jones: That is kind of cool to think about. And I'll tell you, as editor of the journal, one of the funnest things is getting to learn all about neurology, including pain and including central neuropathic pain, when in the end you're doing all the work, I just get to sit here and enjoy it.
And you're a program director of a pain fellowship. What's the pipeline look like? Are neurologists more interested in pain than they used to be?
Dr Argoff: I'm happy for this. We are seeing more and more applicants from neurology into our pain management programs. I would say… I was going to say tragically. If I say tragically, it's because what specialty better understands how to diagnose, figure out, assess, come to a conclusion? You can't have pain without your brain. It's always amazed me that more neurologists weren't interested, and I understand the background and such. Just like in migraine, it's only advances in understanding mechanisms of migraine that allow neuroscientific advances that are leading to great therapeutics - that's happening and increasing in ‘pain.’ Today, as program director, we had our fellowship interviews earlier today and three of the nine applicants that we interviewed were neurologists. Last week, I think we interviewed two or three also. That would not have happened five years ago or six years ago. And if you think about it, we can not only diagnose, quote-unquote figure out what's happening, but we now, with pain management training, we can offer people a variety of both invasive and noninvasive options, all while understanding what we're doing with respect to the nervous system in a way that's different than the other specialties that typically go into pain med. And that's such - for me, it's a beautiful experience and something I really enjoy doing. There isn't a neurological condition in the most part that either doesn't have pain associated with it or doesn't have mechanisms that overlap. If you think about epilepsy, and please don't think I'm crazy, but epilepsy is associated with disinhibited hyper-excitatory behavior, just to put it loosely, among certain neurons. That's what pain and neuropathic pain is about too. And you, in fact, we know that several mechanisms since now what medicines are used for both. But what was interesting since, if I may just go back to another point, one of the advances since I brought up the migraine that's very exciting is the whole story about sodium channels. Dr Harouthounian at WashU and his group used lidocaine injection. Lidocaine's a more generalized sodium channel blocker, but some of the newest treatments for treating neuropathic pain. Our NAV specific sodium channel blocker’s trying to match up mechanism to treatment. Not exactly the way that we do with migraine, but still a step forward to not just generally treat but really target different neuronal mechanisms. It's an exciting time.
Dr Jones: So, the pipeline is doing better because we're getting better understanding of disease, and hopefully that pulls in more interest because obviously there are big gaps in caring for patients with pain. And again, thank you, Dr Argoff, for an amazing article.
Thank you for joining us and thank you for such a fascinating discussion. I enjoyed the article.
I read the article, I learned from our conversation today. So, thank you for joining us to talk about central neuropathic pain.
Dr Argoff: Thank you for having me.
Dr Jones: Again, we've been speaking with Dr Charles Argoff, author of an article on central neuropathic pain in Continuum 's most recent issue on pain management. Please check it out, and thank you to our listeners for joining today.
Dr Monteith: This is Doctor Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at Continpub.com/AudioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.
Peripheral neuropathic pain is primarily influenced by the biology and pathophysiology of the underlying structures, peripheral sensory nerves, and their central pathways.
In this episode, Kait Nevel, MD speaks with Miroslav Bačkonja, MD, an author of the article “Peripheral Neuropathic Pain,” in the Continuum October 2024 Pain Management in Neurology issue.
Dr. Nevel is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a neurologist and neuro-oncologist at Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Dr. Bačkonja is the clinical director in the Division of Intramural Research at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Peripheral Neuropathic Pain
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Full episode transcript available here
Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor in Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME.
Dr Nevel: Hello, this is Dr Kait Nevel. Today I'm interviewing Dr Miroslav Backonja about his article on peripheral neuropathic pain, which appears in the October 2024 Continuum issue on pain management and neurology. Welcome to the podcast.
Dr Backonja: Thank you.
Dr Nevel: Misha, can you please introduce yourself to the audience?
Dr Backonja: Yes, I’m Miroslav Backonja, but everybody calls me Misha. So everybody knows me by that. I'm a training neurologist, and I also have training as well as certification in pain management. And most of my practice has been where neurology meets the pain, which is neuropathic pain. I spend some time basic science lab and then transition into clinical research. And I was in academia for a couple of decades and was most recently recruited by NCCIH National Center for Complementary and Integrated Health and have been there for two and a half years now.
Dr Nevel: That's wonderful. I would love to hear more about your career at the NCCIH, a little bit and what you do in your role now, and how that came to be.
Dr Backonja: Yeah, I was recruited to help and provide clinical support to efforts at NCCIH in the phenotyping of pain and neurologists who've done research in quantitative sensory assessment and other quantitative means of assessment of pain. Coming to NIH was very rewarding and quite of a learning experience. After six months being there, I've discovered that NIH is the biggest secret in plain sight. They say in the plain sight because it's public institution and everything is open to public and it's a secret because we don't think about it. This is in particular in reference to biomedical research training, including clinical trainings. So, I would encourage everybody to think of NIH as a place to spend some time and learn. There are wonderful research opportunities as well as educational opportunities. Vast library of presentations, green rounds and different other types of courses - some of them open to public, and some of them are up to FAS, which is a foundation of advances in science education by discovering. I feel like being back in school and having fun.
Dr Nevel: That's wonderful. Can you share with us a little bit about how you became interested in peripheral neuropathy and pain management of peripheral neuropathic pain?
Dr Backonja: It actually goes back to my residency and fellowship. And actually, you know, I had the luck of being exposed to a couple of clinicians who actually became my mentors. First was Jose Ochoa, who was one of the first people to quote from a small fiber, C fiber specifically, and he also was pioneered in quantitative sensory testing. And the other one was Charles Cleland, who was a psychologist and who pioneered assessment of patient symptoms, developing the Brief Pain Inventory is one of the tools. That actually peaked my interest in the topic of pain and once when I started learning about pain, what is the kind of mysterious experience of humans’ pain, turns out that we have learned a lot of science about the pain and can make the pain very accessible. And I hope some of this will come to the chapter that we've provided.
Dr Nevel: Thank you for sharing that. I think of peripheral neuropathy and I think most neurologists think of peripheral neuropathy as one of the bread-and-butter diagnosis within our field. For the practicing neurologist out there who might be listening, what do you think is the most important takeaway from your article that maybe they don't already know about peripheral neuropathic pain?
Dr Backonja: When it comes to peripheral neuropathy and peripheral neuropathic pain, it goes back to my early experience and still holds the truth. Neuropathies don't kill people, they just maim them. They create- cause lots of disability and if you add a pain to it, it can be quite disabling. In some regards, it has been neglected the area of development in neurology in terms of scientific discoveries, although things are changing quite rapidly as of recently. Main take home messages, and especially when it comes to a sensory neuropathies and painful neuropathies, is that it's one of the skills that has not been well researched and then not well communicated to the vaccine neurologist in terms of what to do with it. But most neurologist sensory symptoms are just like a noise because, especially when it comes to pain and prosthesias and allodynia and hyperalgesias, like, what is that like? It's just not knowing what to make of it. Frequently associated also with emotional components in terms of the people are either depressed because of persistence of pain or anxious, not knowing what's going on. And that really can create quite a bit of a challenge in terms of what to do with it. But once anybody who's interested learns the fact that sensory neuropathies and fever neuropathies as well could be as well and is easily diagnosed by a neurologist who pays a little bit of attention and gains some skills in assessing not only negative sensory phenomena, because that's what he as a neurologist get trained to detect and quantify sensory deficits as well as motor deficits and loss reflexes. Also, if you pay attention to positive sensory phenomena, which is part of the repertoire of symptoms that patients with neuropathic pain experience, it's not whether patients would have either positive sensory phenomena like prosthesia and pain or negative sensory phenomena. Actually, they have all of them. And that's kind of puzzling for many patients. And lots of times, very patients say, like, how can I hurt when I don't feel like, let's say, like most commonly it's lower extremities. Like I don't feel my feet, but it hurts. I mean, how come? Oh, that's a cardinal feature of neuropathic pain, neuropathic painful neuropathy.
Dr Nevel: Yeah, thanks for that. You know, I really thought that your Table 3-1 was really nice. It kind of lists through the common causes of peripheral neuropathic pain and just demonstrates the diversity of the different etiologies or other conditions that can cause neuropathic pain. And so, I encourage the listeners to review that table. But, on that topic, can you share with us what you think are the most important components of evaluating patients with neuropathic pain to maybe come to a diagnosis, to find what the underlying etiology or driver is?
Dr Backonja: When it comes to painful neuropathies, there are actually two problems you have to solve. So, don't forget that part. The first one is finding a pathological theology. Why a person has a neuropathy, what kind of neuropathy. And then second is, what's the nature of the sensory problems? What's the nature of the sensory symptoms, specifically pain, levodenia and hypogesia. So, figuring out the theology of the B12 deficiency or diabetic painful neuropathy, you can relatively quickly or hopefully one would relatively quickly come to that at theological diagnosis. But then the second part is the diagnosis of symptoms. What's the underlying metaphysiology of that. And again, just reminding colleagues that the specific sensory phenomena such as thermal hyperalgesia is now well established to be due to what's called peripheral sensitization of C fibers, which are the small unmyelinated fibers, expressed TP 1 receptors. So, patients who will report that taking a hot shower is very painful. An example of that or when conducting sensory exam and applying if you come to the point of examining the perception of warm and hot and patient affords the pain. That's just the hallmark of the C hurtful sensitizations to C fibrous sensitization. On the other hand, if somebody has mechanical ordinia like putting the shirt on hurts, putting the socks hurts. Well, that's evident to central sensitization. These are the simple, relatively simple but symptoms or signs that could have implication if those patients with central sensitization are more than likely to benefit from medications that restore descending inhibition, such as tricyclic antidepressants or SNRI’s. And so just paying attention to that, it gives a clinician being a clinician or a neurologist, like, let me consider prescribing medication that have central A acting properties. Or if it's purpose sensitization, something we have like a sodium channel blocking property, things of that sort. Actually, there are some other strategies such as antagonist TRPV1receptors, the capsaicin base. Those are the kind of things that can help a neurologist kind of take the evaluation of painful neuropathies to the next level.
Dr Nevel: Yeah, the- by getting a careful history and exam, that can influence what treatment you prescribe to patients. Understanding whether it's central or peripheral. On the topic of treating patients and talking with patients and evaluating them, what do you think is most important to counsel our patients about who we are treating for neuropathic pain?
Dr Backonja: Number one: by getting good history and exam. Well, really in the coming to specific diagnosis is huge relief to the patients who thinks many themselves that they're just going nuts are crazy because nobody else understands these symptoms. So, validation in terms they have a real problem. Second important step is that for the most patients, there is probably reasonable degree of therapeutic interventions that can lead to relief of pain. And also, with applying the integrative approaches with complementary medicine is that patients are given tools to deal with what is otherwise underlying problem. Those two steps make a huge difference.
Dr Nevel: Absolutely. What's the most challenging aspect about managing patients with peripheral neuropathic pain?
Dr Backonja: Actually, there are a couple. Number one thus far: we do not have a cure for any other neuropathies or painful neuropathies. So that's one of the big disappointing things one would need to communicate to the patient. The second challenge is actually the therapies that actually for neuropathic pain. There's a half a dozen- yeah, half a dozen FDA approved treatment. One thing that's interesting characteristic that all of them prove proven efficacy in clinical trials. If you scratch the surface, you find out that only 40% of patients obtain 30% pain relief. So, it's a rare patient that gets 100% pain relief, and even those, too, get what we call clinically significant, and then in studies, basically significant benefit. It's only partial penalty. But for the most those who do get the benefit, pain goes down probably enough for them to get some a semblance of normality in terms of having some control over the symptoms and their function. It's then the third challenge is really working through those available therapies to find what works for individual patients because we're not at the point yet where for example, other fields like oncology, you can quickly through the means of biomedical and other evaluation come to the patient specific therapy. So, at this point in time you're far from that. What we end up doing with when it comes to management for painful neuropathies is a trial. Sometimes patients say, well, trial and error. I would say, well, it's a treatment trials. We try one thing at a time, assess the risks and benefits and then there was many treatments that carry the benefit. If you carry it on when once, when they don't or if there's adverse events, side effects, we discontinue them. And then most of the patients end up with a combination of pharmacological and now pharmacological treatments and most of them can get some semblance of symptoms control.
Dr Nevel: I really appreciate your point on preparing our patients and you know, expectations and things like that and working with them and looking for things that may help. But also having an understanding that the likelihood of complete pain relief is maybe not a super high chance of complete pain relief.
Dr Backonja: But if you're going back to the kind of preparing patients, it's a good to acknowledge or give a chance to express themselves because many times they patients are confused because they have symptoms that are confusing to them. And so just to have them express it. And for example, my alma mater, we developed the color paint drawing where the different sensory qualities are presented by different colors. And then on the body diagram, patients draw where they have symptoms. And this is probably one of the rare examples where you can literally see a pain because these neurologists can recognize the patterns. You can see the pattern of the motor, right, is multiplex or radiculopathy or the list goes on and on. So, this is one of the kind of tools that's very simple, but gives the patients another way to communicate because lots of times they really have difficulties expressing themselves.
Dr Nevel: Right. So, the opposite of the most challenging, can you share with the listeners what you find the most rewarding about taking care of patients with peripheral neuropathic pain?
Dr Backonja: What is rewarding is that with some work- and again, it's not easy work because it does require multiple visits and multiple assessments and the reassessments, most patients can get control over their symptoms to the point of coming to beginning some of the functional improvement and aspects of quality of life like sleep and work, they are definitely rewarding and most of the time it's fairly obvious. And again, pain management is definitely a team sport where really, it's important to gauge colleagues. Most of the places don't have what I have had when I was in academic institutions, easy access to health psychologist or physical therapist. Most communities do have those specialties. And many patients actually benefit from things that are what's considered a complementary medicine, such as Tai chi or yoga. And actually, in my practice, Tai chi was probably most common prescription for my patients because, as I tell them, there are multiple benefits. Number one: one of the risks of patients, especially prophyl neuropathies and lower extremities, is a loss of proprioception. Again, even those who have a reasonable preserved proprioception over welding, noise of pain actually makes the problem walking the at risk of falling. Actually, Tai chi one gets improvement in balance. There's also medicating component to it. So, mindfulness medication is kind of built in it and that all kind of gives the patients a better control of symptoms. So, some of those interventions are easily accessible in community. So, it's, again, it's a patient education that really takes important part.
Dr Nevel: Yeah. And that Tai chi is maybe one of the answers to the next question that I have for you. But as the clinical director of the Division of Intramural Research at the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health, I have to ask you, Misha, what sort of integrative and complementary type interventions do you counsel your patients about, maybe beyond Tai chi, and which ones do you think are the most helpful?
Dr Backonja: To clarify, the NIH patients I see are all admitted per protocol. Actually, NIH has the largest research hospitals called clinical NIH Clinical Centre, which has a hospital and clinics. All the patients that come to our program, they come per protocol for the most part.
They come for specific investigations. At the moment, we do not have intramural treatment protocols, although in near future one of my goals is to establish that. The NIH funds- 90% of funding from NIH goes extramurally to academic institutions and other healthcare organizations and so on, and only 10% goes for intermural research. So, what we do is much smaller in scope, much more focused. So, what do we support NCCIH actually support extramurally full range of anything from probiotics, research in microbiome related to health and pain all the way to interventions such as mindfulness meditation? Intramurally, once when patients come for protocol, we evaluated and it's unavoidable to be a question. So, what do we do now? What recommendations do we make? Again, we don't- with the present time, we have treatment protocols and then, most of the time, what I can do is provide recommendations to the patients when they go back to the treating community, to the treating providers. It's usually a fairly comprehensive list including pharmacological and non-pharmacological accommodations for those who have had experience with pharmacology. Sometimes I can just say yes, continue or change or whatever. But then when it comes to additional complementary accommodations, they always provide information. For example, why do I recommend Tai chi? Or, what's the benefit of yoga and why would one want to try to learn trying to behavioral therapy or mindfulness meditation? What's the benefit of turmeric and some other components of what's called anti-inflammatory diet and what's the rationale behind all of that? So rather than just giving a list of recommendations and leaving it that, I try to engage patients in terms of having to understand why something is recommended, whether the fits with their expectations and what fits with their lifestyle and so on.
Dr Nevel: Yeah. So, what's coming up, what's next in painful peripheral neuropathy? What do you think is exciting? Where do you foresee some breakthroughs in this field?
Dr Backonja: Probably what will make the most difference is application of some of the really molecular biology tools that are being applied to peripheral neuropathy. So hopefully one of these days you'll have a cure for neuropathy and pain and anything would come to that will be probably interaction between a nervous system and an immune system, in particular neuroinflammation. That's kind of my bias. They're probably that's- well, the answer will be, but many painful neuropathies - actually every painful neuropathy, because they come from, as a result, specific pathologies - are different in a sense of trajectory natural course that will have to be first addressed. And again, depending on the underlying disease and molecular biology of that and genetics of it will determine that. But on the other hand, there are some common denominators, as we talked, when it comes to painful neuropathies, which is drivers of peripheral and central sensitization. And maybe one of these days, we'll find what are those drivers and how to change the system so it does not produce pain and other associated symptoms.
Dr Nevel: So once again, today I've been interviewing Dr Miroslav Misha Backonja, whose article on peripheral neuropathic pain appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on pain management in neurology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. And thank you, Misha, so much for talking with me today about your article. I encourage all of the listeners to read it. It was very comprehensive and just really wonderful to read.
Dr Backonja: Thank you. Enjoyed it.
Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/AudioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.
Spine pain is one of the most common presenting concerns in health care settings. It is important for neurologists to understand strategies for evaluating and managing patients with spine pain.
In this episode, Katie Grouse, MD, FAAN, speaks with Vernon B. Williams, MD, FAAN, author of the article “Spine Pain,” in the Continuum October 2024 Pain Management in Neurology issue.
Dr. Grouse is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a clinical assistant professor at the University of California San Francisco in San Francisco, California.
Dr. Williams is the director of the Center for Sports Neurology and Pain Medicine at Cedars-Sinai Kerlan-Jobe Institute in Los Angeles, California.
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Guest: @VernWilliamsMD
Transcript
Full episode transcript available here
Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME.
Dr Grouse: This is Dr Katie Grouse. Today I'm interviewing Dr Vernon Williams about his article on spine pain, which appears in the October 2024 Continuum issue on pain management in neurology. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience.
Dr Williams: Oh, well, thanks for having me. My name is Vernon Williams and I'm a neurologist here in Southern California.
Dr Grouse: So, I want to start off today by asking, what do you feel is the key message from your article?
Dr Williams: So, I think the key message is that we want to make sure people understand that there's really a distinction between abnormal imaging, tissue damage, nociception, and this experience of spine pain. So, the concept is that nociception is different from the clinical experience of pain; nociception, meaning the electrical signaling from these, quote unquote, pain generators and that kind of thing. But it's really an incomplete framing. We really want people to understand that the experience of pain is colored by a number of other things, things like genetics, biochemical factors, behavior and psychological factors, social factors, those kinds of things. So that's one of the big messages, this distinction between nociception and this clinical experience of pain.
Dr Grouse: Why do you think it's important for neurology clinicians to read this article?
Dr Williams: Well, I think, you know, for one thing, spine pain is very common. So, it is likely that neurologists will encounter patients who come to see them because of that chief complaint.
But I think that if we want to really be successful at treating spine-related pain, then we really have to know all of that basic information, the basic knowledge that we came to learn as residents and medical students or what have you. But it's also important to know that that knowledge is necessary, but it's insufficient. You really also have to confront pain from the standpoint of these other things, these other behavioral factors, psychological factors, social factors, and you got to kind of combine those things to be the most successful in treating this very common condition.
Dr Grouse: You know, you mentioned earlier about the difference between tissue damage pain and nociception. I find this to be, you know, a really great lens thinking about these concepts to view this topic and your article specifically. Can you go a little more into what the difference between, specifically, pain and nociception really is?
Dr Williams: Yeah. I mean, so when we talk about nociception, in many ways we're talking about the electrical activity. And so, there's the stimulation of these nerves, in the periphery typically, and that electrical signal is transmitted, you know, from those nociceptive fibers into the spinal cord. And it's headed from the first-order neuron to the second-order neuron and axons in the spinal cord and eventually reaches the brain. But essentially the concept is that it's not pain at that point. It's not pain until those signals reach the cortex and they are experienced in some context. And that context really colors whether or not, and to what extent, people experience pain or suffer pain as a result. So, when we think about nociception, we tend to think about kind of tissue damage or the threat of tissue damage. And in clinic, we tend to kind of focus on that and we look for relationships between abnormalities on imaging studies that could be causing those kinds of electrical signals. And we tend to focus less on that second but critical aspect of things, and that's that individual 's personal experience, which is colored by a number of different things: their attention, their expectation, colored by how we interact with them, our verbal and non-verbal communication with them. And again, like we talked about: their history, who are they, their genetics, their behavioral history, their psychological history and those kinds of things. So, it's really this combination of things that we have to be aware of when we're treating spine pain. And I think the tendency is for us to focus on the first half and less on the second half.
Dr Grouse: Absolutely. I certainly think our training and our focus on localizing the lesion may in some ways hurt us in that sense because we really focus so much on the first and not so much the second. Would you say that's probably right?
Dr Williams: Yeah, I mean, that's part of our heritage as clinicians, particularly neurologists. It's, where's the lesion? And so, what happens when there is no, quote unquote, lesion? What happens if there are multiple potential lesions? And so, these kinds of concepts, I think, become really important, and the context in which you're examining and evaluating that patient becomes important. And I think they are at least as important as the potential pain generator or the nociceptive signal.
Dr Grouse: Now, you mentioned earlier something about sort of how we approach the patient and the language we're putting out, the body language. I found the concept of nocebo and maladaptive pain-related neuroplasticity to be absolutely fascinating when I was reading your article, and I was really surprised to learn that clinicians can really contribute to this effect unknowingly through their body language, verbal language, nonverbal messaging, and even how they're interpreting the test results? When a patient comes to see you with chronic back pain, how do you approach the whole process to minimize this effect and, really, to set the stage for more constructive and therapeutic evaluation?
Dr Williams: Yeah, Katie, I think that's… it's tough because our culture is so, you know, it's so ingrained in our culture to look for a structural abnormality as an explanation for an individual 's symptoms. And so, I find myself struggling with that all the time, not only discussing why we're ordering an imaging study, but, if that person comes back and I'm describing to them the abnormalities on that imaging study, I've got to be very careful about describing them in the context of what we expect. And so, I'll typically try to use words like, well, you've got some wear-and-tear changes that we all get, as compared to saying, well, you've got a disc herniation abnormality at L five S one that's causing your pain. That statement could have a negative effect on that individual's framing of what's going on. Maybe that L five S one disc is contributing to their symptoms and maybe it isn't. Maybe it's been there or for years and maybe it's new. And even if it is new, does that mean, in that patient's mind, that now they've got an abnormality that has to be fixed or else they will continue to have pain? And so, kind of trying to keep all of those things in mind is why we want to kind of color that interaction. And I mentioned both verbal and nonverbal interaction and communication with the patient, because I think that they are picking up on all of these signals. Some of them are very obvious and some of them are very subtle. But keep in mind their brains, their nervous systems are primed to interpret all of these signals, both verbal and nonverbal. And that's going to have a downstream - or upstream, I would say - effect on their framing and how they interpret the interaction and what they think it means for them and their future. So, you know, it's kind of a big thing to think about when you- every time you walk in a room, but it's an important thing to think about when we're communicating with patients.
Dr Grouse: It's absolutely fascinating and has really made me go back and think about, gosh, are there ways that I could have done things better to really message this in a more helpful way? And on that note, do you have any tips or tricks on how to put out that that messaging, both verbal and nonverbal; to be, you know, to avoid those pitfalls of kind of reinforcing the wrong message about tissue damage?
Dr Williams: Yeah. I mean, so one of the main things is trying to be very purposeful about educating people on the difference between tissue damage or potential tissue damage and pain. And so being careful not to use statements like, well, I think your pain is coming from this disc or this structural abnormality because again, we want to try to separate those things.
They are different. I think that, you know, how we discuss imaging studies is very important because you want people to understand that an imaging study is just that. It's anatomy and it doesn't equal function, it doesn't equal what they experience in terms of sensory symptoms and pain. But I think the goal is to try to be very purposeful and maybe even reexamine how we discuss those things or when we discuss those things. One of the things I've found helpful is kind of the order in which I perform my clinical assessment. So traditionally, I was taught, like many, take the history, do the physical examination, and then start to discuss and educate patients. Right? Here's the test I want to order, here's what I think may be going on, so on and so forth. I think in some cases it's more beneficial to take the history and, before the physical examination, discuss what I'm thinking, taking that opportunity to discuss the differences between nociception, tissue damage, the experience of pain, the importance of movement, so on and so forth. And then do the physical examination so that that person has some idea of what is it that he's looking for. How is this going to inform his opinions and recommendations and so on and so forth. But also provide them with the concept that movement, for instance, is safe unless they have certain kinds of red flags on their history. I'm encouraging movement and I'm encouraging them to recognize that some of these movements they may have predicted would have been painful for them actually aren't painful, and they may start to internalize the concept that they can do it once without paying, that probably means that they're not damaging themselves every time they perform that movement. And if they can do one pain-free rep, that's important, and that may counteract the concept that they are damaging themselves every time they move and every time they feel pain, that means that there's tissue damage. So, what we talk about, how we talk about it and even when we talk about it during the course of that evaluation may have some negative or positive effects. And it may be beneficial to kind of think about those things and whether or not our typical approach might be the best or maybe we can improve on that or adjust that, particularly in certain situations and with certain patients.
Dr Grouse: That’s absolutely fascinating, and great tips I think that all of our listeners will want to incorporate as we're approaching this patient population. You know, in your article, I also wanted to talk about, you mentioned some really interesting treatments for pain is that I think would include, or would, fall under the category of neuromodulation. Can you summarize some of these options for us?
Dr Williams: Yeah. I mean, so I think that the concept of neuromodulation, I tend to think of it in a very holistic sense. And so not only focusing on the application of external stimuli and that could be, you know, electrical stimuli, magnetic stimuli, cryo, analgesia, those kinds of things in order to turn up or down nervous system activity, electrical signals, what have you.
I think of neuromodulation in a global sense. I think in a way, cognitive restructuring and education, in a way, is a form of neuromodulation. It's affecting how that individual frames the concept of their pain, structural changes versus experience, so on and so forth.
But generally, I'm talking about these kinds of things. So, there are some very interesting approaches with electrical stimulation and it doesn't necessarily have to be permanent implantation of a stimulator as we tend to think about with spinal cord stimulation, but there are some interesting temporary peripheral nerve stimulators that that can be very helpful for various kinds of spinal pain. And then there's also these technologies that I find fascinating. Some of them are in the wearables category. So, combining the education and framing and cognitive restructuring with things like virtual reality, there are some interesting programs that combine some predictive modeling with virtual reality, such that an individual has goggles on,
they are participating in some activity that requires them to move in a certain direction and move to a certain extent that may or may not match what they are seeing visually in the goggles.
So, you can kind of begin to kind of dissociate their expectation of when they may experience pain as a function of their movement from what actually happens. So, these kinds of things, I think, are really interesting ways to augment our traditional approaches to pain, physical therapy, rehabilitation, medications, some kinds of injections, with these additional approaches that really have an effect on the nervous system as opposed to just focusing on what I would call kind of the mechanical anatomy, the joints and the discs and what have you, with traditional approaches.
Dr Grouse: It's really exciting to hear about some of these new options that can be tried to help with this neuromodulation and sort of cognitive restructuring. Of course, understanding that there's some things that we do ourselves that do this in the clinic encounter, which I think is a great reminder. I wanted to touch on, in your article, you had mentioned that we really have to be aware as clinicians, that health inequities and disparities and even the social determinants of health have inevitable effects on spine pain. How can our listeners better recognize and ensure equitable care for this patient population, particularly in light of the fact that many of these therapies that we've just been talking about can be difficult to access even in the best circumstances?
Dr Williams: Well, you know, thanks for asking that question. I think that's a great question. I think from the standpoint of, you know, health equity and addressing, you know, disparities and that kind of thing, the first thing is to just acknowledge and recognize that these things are present. And even, you know, though we may have the best intentions, there may be scenarios where our practices are affected and our patients are affected by these kinds of things.
So, I think the first thing is the acknowledgement. And then the second thing is kind of trying to figure out if there are things that we can do as individual practitioners, or our offices can do or the entities that we interact with, maybe that's a hospital system or what have you to address these kinds of things. So, we know, for instance, from the standpoint of race and ethnicity, there's disparities with respect to African Americans, with Hispanics and other ethnic minorities and the kind of care they receive. We know that access resulting from insurance coverage and geographical limitations, that kind of thing can be significant. And interestingly, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is uninsured. So, for instance, we will often see individuals who've had work injuries and who are covered by the workers’ compensation system have certain limitations placed on what they have access to, often resulting in lots of frustration from those patients. And that's a reality that we sometimes have to work really hard to overcome. Socioeconomic status, provider bias. And again, this is something that we have to kind of do some internal searching to say, hey, am I approaching these individuals on a on a more equal and equitable basis, or am I also subject to some of the biases that that I've been exposed to and trying to overcome that? So, I think that's a huge part of the context. And when we talk about how we learn, whether we're talking about spine pain or anything else, I'm a believer in that kind of cycle of pedagogy that includes content-based information, which is kind of the very basic foundational information, that includes things we can memorize and definitions we can memorize. And that may include things like what we've talked about relative to kind of the nociception and pain pathways, so on and so forth. But then there are concepts, and we've talked about the concept of verbal communication and nonverbal communication, the concept of cognitive restructuring and neuromodulation as an approach. But then context is kind of that last level, probably the most significant level in terms of how we can integrate all this information and really master information. And that context has to do with things like social determinants and disparities and the reality that these things have an effect on how we evaluate and manage patients and the success with which patients can be managed. And so, I appreciate that question, I think it’s a great question, because it gets that kind of the reality of what does this look like in real life as opposed to just on the page or just in a textbook.
Dr Grouse: Well, that's really helpful and certainly something that we can all keep in mind as we try to be more aware of this, and I like the idea of just acknowledging it and just having it there, knowing that this exists and helping that inform how we approach these patients.
I wanted to ask you, what do you think the biggest controversy is currently in the evaluation and management of spine pain?
Dr Williams: You know, I think that there's a couple of controversies that are interesting. Nowadays, one of them has to do with the utility of some of the things that have been performed and done most frequently for spine pain, and that's things like epidural injections, facet injections, some of the interventional procedures. There's some controversy among some as to whether or not these things are effective, you know, what role they have in treatment because some people will say, oh, is there any long-term effect from these kinds of procedures? Even patients will sometimes say, hey, listen, I'm not sure if I want an injection because isn't that just temporary, or, isn't that just a band aid? But I think that when we talk about pain from the perspective of it potentially being a progressive disorder and trying to be aggressive with managing pain so that we are less likely to see some of the chronic manifestations that occur with maladaptive neuroplasticity it's important to be aggressive with stopping no subceptive signals, reducing an individual 's experience of pain, optimizing their function, and having a positive effect on the ability to treat and eliminate pain, even if that means with epidural injections or blocks or what have you, as long as they're safe and effective. I think that there are some controversies evolving related to some of the regenerative procedures that have been done for other kinds of musculoskeletal pain. So, for instance, PRP and stem cells, you know, people have been doing those for knees and muscle tears and what have you. And of course, that technology has kind of evolved into potential approaches for spine pain. People are often interested in whether PRP or stem cells may help their spine pain. And so, I think that's another area of potential controversy because there hasn't been a ton of, you know, high-level evidence, although there are some, you know, there's some studies out there and there's some evidence that they may be of benefit. And I think the role of stimulators and implants for axial pain is another area of potential controversy. Those are probably the biggest things in this area of spine pain that are topics of controversy. There are things that have people talked about for years in terms of chiropractic care versus traditional medical care. But I think right now it's the utility of these kinds of interventional procedures, the role of regenerative procedures and injections, and then the role of more aggressive interventions like permanent implantation of stimulators and that kind.
Dr Grouse: Is there anything coming on the horizon in the field of managing spine pain that we should be looking out for?
Dr Williams: Well, you know, I am still bullish on the concept of neuromodulation and we've talked about that peripheral nerve stimulation, spinal cord stimulation, and then other wearables, VR, so on and so forth. I think that those things will continue to evolve, and I think that technologies continue to evolve that are likely to help with spine related pain. Some of them are very interestingly related to the ability to strengthen multifidus muscles and improve muscular function in individuals with spine pain. But I think that's one area - neuromodulation - that we'll continue to see evolution. I think that- I'm interested to see what the role of regenerative injections and regenerative procedures may play. And then just like every other field of human endeavor, artificial intelligence, machine learning, those kinds of things are likely to have a significant effect on how we diagnose an individuals, on treatment options for various individuals, and even a predicting outcome from various treatment. So those, I think, are examples of areas that we'll see continued growth and evolution with respect to spine pain.
Dr Grouse: Well, I'm very excited to see what comes down the pipeline and both vastly more to come, I'm sure. So, thank you so much, Vernon, for joining us. I really enjoyed reading your article. I really enjoyed talking about this topic. I think I've learned a lot and I hope that our listeners will take the time to read this article. It's really, really helpful.
Dr Williams: Well, I appreciate the opportunity. I really enjoy participating in this process. The interview was fun, so thanks a lot for having me. I really appreciate it.
Dr Grouse: Again, today I've been interviewing Dr Vernon Williams, whose article on spine pain appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on pain management in neurology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today.
Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at Continnpub.com/AudioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.
Neurologists bring special skills to pain evaluation and management and are well equipped to appreciate both the focal and diffuse nature of pain. By using expert knowledge of the nervous system and implementing relevant therapies, neurologists can succeed at and find meaning in optimizing patient outcomes.
In this episode, Allison Weathers, MD, FAAN, speaks with Beth B. Hogans, MD, PhD, author of the article “Principles of Pain Management,” in the Continuum October 2024 Pain Management in Neurology issue.
Dr. Weathers is a Continuum® Audio interviewer associate chief medical information officer at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.
Dr. Hogans is an associate professor in the department of neurology at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine and an associate director for education and evaluation at the Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center at the VA Maryland Health Care System in Baltimore, Maryland.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Principles of Pain Management
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Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud
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Social Media
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@ContinuumAAN
Full episode transcript available here
Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME.
Dr Weathers: This is Dr Allison Weathers. Today I'm interviewing Dr Beth Hogans, author of Principles of Pain Assessment, Diagnosis, and Management from the October 2024 Continuum issue on pain management and neurology. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience.
Dr Hogans: Good afternoon. My name is Beth Hogans. I'm a neurologist. My faculty appointment is at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine in the Department of Neurology, where I'm an assistant professor. I also serve at the Baltimore VA Medical Center, where I'm the Associate Director of Education and Evaluation for the Geriatric Research, Education and Clinical Center, as well as a neurologist.
Dr Weathers: Thank you so much for, again, being with us today and taking the time to speak with me. I was really struck by how broadly applicable this topic is, not only to all neurologists, but to all physicians and even to all of our listeners, given how prevalent these conditions are.
Nearly all physicians involved in direct patient care treat some type of pain disorders, and we all experience pain at some point, though hopefully not chronic pain. Well, usually like to start with a question - again, it feels especially pertinent here in getting to speak with you - what is the most important clinical message of your article?
Dr Hogans: So, I'm going to say there's two key messages. The first one is that all pain has a differential diagnosis, and the second one is that all meds work better with non-pharmacological and whole-health comprehensive management incorporated. So that's why I structured the article around the ideas of assessment, diagnosis and management. It's a pretty sort of traditional, basic approach to how we look at clinical problems, but we definitely want to start with proper assessment, go on to a thoughtful differential diagnosis, and then move towards a management plan that is not just, you know, one stop shop, but actually kind of brings several aspects together. Because pain is so multidimensional; you know, it's represented in multiple places in the brain as well as other levels of the nervous system. And so, I think we're still in an era, and we may stay in an era, of, you know, needing something to go along with medication in many cases.
Dr Weathers: I think those are two absolutely critical points for our listeners to keep in mind, both, again, keeping that broad differential, and - we'll get more into management in a bit, but again - that dual strategy of both the pharmacologic and the non-pharmacologic. And again, going down a little bit more there on that management track, a really recurring theme that I picked up in your article is the importance of interprofessional collaboration in the assessment and the management of patients with pain. In the abstract, you actually use the phrase “remarkable” for the diversity of health professions, which I really loved. What other clinicians do you work with in diagnosing and managing pain conditions, and what are their roles in the care of these patients?
Dr Hogans: So, something you hear over and over again at pain meetings is, “there is no I in team.” They say that all the time. And it's one of the things I really love about pain, is that we get to work with great colleagues who have their own perspectives, approaches and therapies for pain. So, in my particular practice, which I do focus kind of more at the interface between neurological and musculoskeletal pain because of my passion and interest for spinal pain, you know, ranging from neck to tailbone, but most especially in the lower back. Physical therapy, clinical psychology, sleep sedicine, nursing, pharmacy, rehab… Podiatry is something that people don't often think of, but is really important for getting spine mechanics correct… Ergonomics. But I want to just say something about clinical psychology because there may not be enough clinical psychologists in the United States, but we as neurologists are also brain doctors. You know, we have to stay within our scope of practice. But there's a move now to talk about psychologically informed physical therapy. So why don't we talk about psychologically informed neurology? I think we could do an even better job of kind of leveraging our knowledge of the brain and how it works to kind of bring that into our practice. And so, people with pain often need a lot of empathetic support, for example, as well as knowledge about their condition.
So, I would encourage people to build local networks of folks that they refer to and work with. Because when I was a younger doctor, physical therapists taught me a lot of what I know now - because I didn't get it at med school, although by the time I got to residency, I had some really great teachers. But clinical psychology, PT, sleep medicine, those are, like, almost all-the-time collaborators for me. And then like I said, nursing, pharmacy, rehab, podiatry, et cetera, et cetera, prosthetics… those things are all important for pain.
Dr Weathers: I was struck by the quote, “one of the things I really love about pain.” That's a great line, and understand how it was meant, but I think - again, a really great quote, but I think you make such important points and, really, it is such a critical team approach. And I love all of those roles you called out. And I was struck in listening to your really thoughtful answer about how I've spoken with several other authors of actually very different topics, but about how we're thinking now about a trauma-informed care approach to many neurological conditions and the similarities with this patient population, how it likely informs very much the approach to this patient population as well and probably the significant potential.
Dr Hogans: A hundred percent! And so, for example, one of the things that probably does factor in for chronic pain - not in everyone, but in, let's say, many cases - is a prior exposure to trauma, whether it's PTSD or adverse childhood events. And so that's why, you know, clinical psychology is, like, very high up on my list of collaborators. And one of the things that I really like - you could say love - about working in the BA system is the ready availability of mental health co-management. So, I would say about a third of my patients in neurology are co-managed by mental health. And what it does is it sort of defuses a lot of what would otherwise come into the visit and be my job as a neurologist to manage, if not treat, right? I still have to manage, you know, someone who comes in with untreated mental trauma or mental health conditions if they're coming into that visit, and I'm trying to open the topic of whether mental health co-management could be helpful. That can sometimes, strangely enough, antagonize people. We’re still in an era of substantial stigma. But I can just say the practice of neurology, together with appropriate mental health co-management, is far superior than going alone.
Dr Weathers: Absolutely. And how fortunate that for a lot of your practice, your patients do have those resources available to them. And I think it speaks to the importance of those resources, that all of our patients should really have that availability, and the importance of access.
Dr Hogans: Right. So, at Johns Hopkins, we also have exceptional access to, you know, some of the world 's best clinical psychologists. And I've been really privileged to work with my colleagues in clinical psychology. The challenges that - in some of my roles, I interact with trainees and learners who are in clinics that are not as well resourced. And therein lies just tremendous heartache and difficulty. We've been trying to build some resources. There are federal resources that can help to open those conversations and maybe take some of the initial steps towards things like cognitive behavioral therapy, acceptance commitment therapy, mindfulness-based stress reduction. There's many of these psychological therapies that are proven to be effective for pain and chronic pain, and yet we haven't really had that conversation as a society about, how do we get people connected with those therapies? Many of them can be delivered on a larger scale. And I think we just need to think a lot more thoughtfully about, how can we have more of a public health approach to chronic pain and wellness?
Dr Weathers: Absolutely. Such really important points. So, we've talked about the really kind of important, obvious points for what we very much kind of know to be accurate. I want to talk now about, what are the most common misconceptions that you've encountered in treating patients with pain disorders?
Dr Hogans: Yeah. So, this is where, you know, physician as advocate for the patient really comes into play. So, I think the number one misconception that I and many of my colleagues encounter: that pain is the patient 's problem, or that that pain reflects an excessive sensitivity.
I think one analogy that I use with students that helps to kind of piece this apart is the immune system, right? There are people who have immunodeficiencies that they're not sufficiently protected from the environment, and then there are - lots of people have allergies where their immune system is sort of hyper-alerted to things that are not a true threat. And the pain system is exquisitely regulated. The neurology of the pain system is fascinating and compelling, and once you learn a little bit about it, you can apply it at the bedside, time after time after time.
So, number one: pain is real. And there is an association between strong pain and increased risk for chronic pain. And then sort of the flip side of that is that malingering or, you know, fictitious pain is probably a lot like other functional disorders in that it's part of a complex. So, I think we need to do a lot more work to discover, you know, quote, what is pain that people think is amplified or manufactured and how can we frame that in a clinical context rather than just casting blame or- we already mentioned stigma. You know, stigmatizing people does not help. And there are people who have real pain problems that are really severe and disabling, and neurologists can actually help support those people as they encounter their environment.
Dr Weathers: I really love that response. And I think you're right in that we do so often, in the medical system, tend to stigmatize these patients, even as we say the right things and we, I think, talk about it and we recognize… and yet, still, it's almost these unconscious biases. I think, as good as we've gotten in some areas, it's still hard to separate them. It's almost kind of one of the last unspoken, still-acceptable ones in some ways that oh, they must be drug-seeking or, you know, to your point, you use the word, kind of malingering, that they’re somehow, you know, either at fault or that there's some nefarious behavior going on there. And I think you made such really important points that we have to change our way of thinking that it is such a common and, frankly, wrong misconception that a lot of us really carry around and it's really hard to break. We have to kind of recognize these biases in ourself and really fight against them when we encounter these patients.
Dr Hogans: I think part of how we got there is the opioid crisis.
Dr Weathers: Yes.
Dr Hogans: You know, unfortunately we still do not have a fantastic understanding of opioid durability. Like, how long does opioid analgesia last? Not from, like, hour to hour, but, like, from month to month. Roger Cho has done some awesome work looking at long-term efficacy of opioids, and it's surprisingly modest. And yet, opioids have this profound kind of behavioral impact, that they really are highly reinforcing. And so, once they're in the conversation, you find yourself in, like, almost this life-or-death struggle between, you know, am I going to get opioids at this visit? How many? You know, if not, why not; are you going to decrease? And so those of us who are working today, you know, and have been working for the last five years, have been through this terrible struggle. And that struggle is not yet resolved. But once opioids are kind of off the table or neutralized, then we actually have a conversation that is really, you know, A: how good of a clinician are we? Do we really understand what our patient is going through? And how can we bring, like Hippocrates said, you know, get the system to bear on the problem and not just, you know, try to throw drugs at it. So I think that, really, pain challenges us to be our best selves and to, you know, really be clever and kind and helpful. And it is a really great opportunity to help. And as I said, the mechanisms of pain are fascinating neurologically. So, it kind of satisfies some of what we come to work for, but I think it's not all done yet. One of my challenges has been, I wrote an article in 2011 with one of my trainees where we counted up the number of hours documented in the double AMC database for med schools, and we found that the modal value for US medical schools at that time was four. So out of four thousand curricular hours, there were four pain hours. And when you think about the prevalence of pain, that's just a drop in the bucket. So, you know, it's getting better, but we need to come up with some new strategies. So I wrote, I've written three books now. The latest one is really designed to give that intro-level knowledge of pain. But also, obviously, the Continuum article, I wanted to kind of set the table, lay the foundation, and give people some core knowledge to get started with.
Dr Weathers: And again, a fantastic article. If our listeners haven't read it, I strongly encourage them to go back because I think you did just that. And as you were just talking, I was thinking about that, especially for those of us who, you know, depending on when in your training was, you know, mine started in the early 2000s. We've kind of lived through that era with the pendulum swinging. Where was, you know, the signs were posted in each clinic room. You know, don't forget to ask, you know, your provider about your pain meds, and it was the sixth vital sign, and all of that. And then the pendulum swung very quickly and very severely the other way, where it was, you have now created this problem, right? We have all caused this epidemic and we're supposed to immediately take these meds away, right?
And now to your point, you know, we've all been in these situations with opioids where that was all that was talked about, right? So, you know, we've all been on call and now you're getting the call overnight from people trying to get their opioids filled when, you know, not their prescriber because they knew if they called - or family members, as soon as you got prescribing rights, were now calling and asking. And we've all been in these very hard situations.
Dr Hogans: Just because you have a hammer doesn’t mean that everything is a nail.
Dr Weathers: I know. So, in trying to negotiate and navigate, you know, these very rough situations… And I think now we're reaching kind of this new era where, to your excellent point, realizing that there are a lot of other solutions. And I love how you framed it, that this is really where we can be our best selves as providers. And actually, to that point, so - as I've mentioned on this podcast many times, clinically, I'm a neuro-hospitalist and I actually wanted to get your opinion as one of the foremost experts. So, a challenging situation I'm also often faced with in my clinical role is when a patient with a chronic pain condition such as diabetic neuropathy or lumbar radiculopathy is admitted to the hospital, often with a totally unrelated condition that either results in a new acute pain, but often also exacerbates their underlying chronic pain, what's your approach to the assessment and management of similar cases? I know our listeners will return again and again to that fantastic approach you laid out in Figure 1.1 with the coordination of the pharmacologic and non-pharmacologic therapies, as we've talked about several times just throughout our conversation, how important both of those approaches are. But a lot of those options are unfortunately limited in the in-patient setting. So how do you balance those?
Dr Hogans: So, there's a whole other toolkit that comes into play for acute pain or sort of pain palliation. And you actually have some important allies in the hospital. It turns out that nurses, generally speaking, have some more education than do most physicians about pain.
And the nurses that I encounter really see themselves as genuine, sincere advocates for the patient 's interest. They're at the bedside, they're working very closely, and their training actually does, I think, give them a number of tools and a set of inspirational ideas that build towards patient comfort. So, if you communicate with nursing staff about your desire to provide more comfort for the patient, whether it's padding, positioning, activities such as, you know, having them participate in something, you know, whether it's just having a family member, you know, take them for a walk, whether it's in a wheelchair or having an older adult sit by the nurse's station just to give some form of distraction. Ice, you know, cool packs and hot packs, you know, supportive toweling or pillows, all of that can really help. Years ago, nurses used to actually be trained in giving massages, and that can provide some comfort. You know, supportive touch is kind of how we frame that nowadays. But the other piece that you have is, in many cases, PT is getting involved much earlier in the patient, you know, rehabilitation course. And remember that motion is lotion. So, our endogenous analgesia system, which actually involves both endogenous opioids and endogenous cannabinoids, can be activated through many forms of motion, as well as immobility is actually a cause of pain itself. So, you just, you break out your in-patient tool kit and, you know, there are other tools and there's other allies that you want to think about in that context.
Dr Weathers: Those are all really great tips, many of which, I know, as you said, a lot of us tend in our thinking to go right to pharmacologic strategy, so wouldn't even be considered, but I think really thoughtful, and that we do have at our fingertips. So-
Dr Hogans: I wish I had thought to put them in the article.
Dr Weathers: No, they were fantas- but again, why we podcast, agree for complimenting the article… we encourage people to take advantage of both. Well, this has been wonderful, and I know I have learned so much, even more than was in the article. I always like to end on a hopeful note, so I would love to hear what developments in the field of pain that you're most excited about. What do you think is coming down the pipe?
Dr Hogans: Well, I think, like a lot of people, I've been waiting for the opportunity that's happening right now, which is, there's a massive investment in pain science being made by the NIH. Finally. You know, we've moved from, you know, just like, little things here or there, commercial kind of entities, to, we now have large NIH dollars flowing into pain. I'd like to see not only a focus on small molecule development, which will ultimately lead to better pharmacological agents, but I'd also like to see a thoughtful approach to non-pharmacological therapies, whole health approaches. Things like healthy communities, safe exercise spaces for all ages, more nutritious food, yoga, Tai chi. We know from Skelly and Cho's article in 2020 that there are many, many non-pharmacological therapies that actually work for chronic pain. There’re some things we still don't know. Like, do older adults respond as well as middle-aged adults? And how can we get NPTs - non-pharmacological therapies - more accessible to people who are subject to disparities? I think part of what happened during the opioid era is that you could get, you know, a bottle of pills for a four-to-ten dollar co-pay and physical therapy was twenty dollars a shot. And we know PT will get you to a better place, but that person that you're talking to may not have three hundred dollars to go to a course of PT. And we need to figure out, you know, how do we do this better, safer, more healthfully.
Dr Weathers: And, I think, forgetting even the co-pay; it's the coordination, the time off work, all of it, right? So it's, I think, all of those challenges, but I think all of that are such important points about - and I think, that's really where I'm hopeful. Right? The emphasis, we talked a little bit about trauma-informed care earlier in our conversation, but the focus now on addressing the underlying social disparities of health and overall healthcare disparities, I think, is so promising.
Dr Hogans: We need to think about the long-term consequences for human health; and pain has a terrible impact on human health for many reasons, and, I hope, will continue to be the focus of effort for years to come.
Dr Weathers: Absolutely. Well, that is such an important statement to end on. Thank you again, Dr Hogans, for such a fantastic conversation and again, such an overall excellent article.
Dr Hogans: Thank you, Dr Weathers, it was great to speak with you today again.
Dr Weathers: Today I've been interviewing Dr Beth Hogans, whose article on principles of pain assessment, diagnosis, and management appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on pain management and neurology. To learn more about the topics of pain assessment and other topics of pain management, don't forget to listen to Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. Thank you to our listeners for joining today.
Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at Continpub.com/AudioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.
In this episode, Lyell K. Jones Jr, MD, FAAN, speaks with Nathaniel M. Schuster, MD who served as the guest editor of the Continuum® October 2024 Pain Management in Neurology issue. They provide a preview of the issue, which publishes on October 2, 2024.
Dr. Jones is the editor-in-chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology® and is a professor of neurology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
Dr. Schuster is an associate professor and associate clinic director in the Center for Pain Medicine and Department of Anesthesiology at the University of California, San Diego in La Jolla, California.
Additional Resources
Continuum website: ContinuumJournal.com
Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum
More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com
Social Media
facebook.com/continuumcme
@ContinuumAAN
Host: @LyellJ
Guest: @NatSchuster
Full episode transcript available here
Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME Journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, a companion podcast to the journal. Continuum Audio features conversations with the guest editors and authors of Continuum, who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum journal have access to exclusive audio content not featured on the podcast. If you're not already a subscriber, we encourage you to become one. For more information, please visit the link in the show notes.
Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology. Today, I'm interviewing Dr Nathaniel Schuster, who recently served as Continuum’s guest editor for our latest issue on pain management and neurology. Dr Schuster is a pain neurologist at the University of California, San Diego, where he is an Associate Professor of Anesthesia. Dr Schuster, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners?
Dr Schuster: Thank you so much, Dr Jones, for having me. My name is Nat Schuster. I am a pain and headache neurologist at UC San Diego, in the Department of Anesthesiology. I do research, clinical practice, and of course, education of med students through pain fellows, and it's been a pleasure to be the guest editor for this forthcoming issue of Continuum.
Dr Jones: Well, I want to thank you for editing the issue. I want to thank you for putting together, really, an incredible list of topics and, really, expert authors. It's been a long time since Continuum has dedicated significant space in an issue to pain management, which is obviously a hugely prevalent, major problem in society, and I think a big gap for many of us – I know it is for me in my practice, so I've enjoyed learning about it – so I want to congratulate you on the issue and thank you for doing it.
Dr Schuster: Yeah. I was just at AAN a few weeks ago. I was chatting with the person who edited one nearly 20 years ago, a prior pain Continuum issue - so, really glad that for another generation of neurologists that we're going to have this as a reference, and hopefully, it'll serve them in their care of so many patients, because this is just such a ubiquitous problem facing Americans and people around the world.
Dr Jones: Yeah, and a lot's changed in 20 years, so let's get into it. And I will say, you know, now that with our open podcast model, we're interviewing the guest editors, you have, really, an incredible view of the entire field at the moment. And with your reading of the issue and your experience as a pain expert, Dr Schuster, what do you think is the biggest controversy in pain medicine right now?
Dr Schuster: Yes, certainly. I think the most controversial thing facing our practicing neurologists is the opioid issue and how things have been changing with national guidelines since 2016, and, fortunately, we are going to have an article by Dr Friedhelm Sandbrink - who is not only a neurologist, but he is the national director for the VA system - on pain management, opioid safety, and prescription drug monitoring programs. So, it's really wonderful that we have him as an author, and I hope that all the neurologists take an opportunity to read his really important manuscript, because it's dizzying, and, you know, if you're not reading the latest things from people like Dr Sandbrink pretty much every couple of years, you're probably falling behind when it comes to what are current attitudes, what is necessary to be, you know, most responsibly continuing your patients who have been on opioids for so long (many of whom have really debilitating neurologic conditions, nothing else is helpful for them), how are you able to best treat them, best monitor them in the appropriate ways to be doing things in compliance with guidelines.
Dr Jones: And I think monitoring is one of the things that, for neurologists who are uncomfortable with pain management, uncomfortable with the modern role of opioids, I think part of it is, well, what are my accountabilities? What are my responsibilities for doing that? That article will have great insights for our readers. Cannabinoids - that's another one I hear a lot of questions about, and it's obviously evolving. The science is relatively less mature there. From your perspective, what's the role of cannabinoids in a modern pain practice?
Dr Schuster: Yeah. Once again, so much controversy there and so much variability across the US, of course, between institutions, between states - hugely different. And as we speak, it's looking like cannabis will very likely be recategorized as being schedule III, so things are changing, you know, even between right now, probably, and when people are going to be reading the forthcoming Continuum and listening to this podcast. At UC San Diego, we certainly have been on the forefront of doing clinical trials, looking at these clinical trials. They're academic studies using the NIDA drug supply. So, they're not the size and scope of so many of the things that we use that have had industry-funded, large, multicenter studies done, but the research that we've done has shown promise for quite a few different neurologic conditions, ranging from my most recent research was in the migraine space, looking at acute migraine (and I just had the pleasure of presenting that data at AAN a few weeks ago), looking at other things over the years, looking at spasticity pain and multiple sclerosis, spinal cord injury pain, diabetic peripheral neuropathy, other peripheral neuropathies. So, in the conditions that we as neurologists so often do treat, that does seem like there is a lot of promise. It's something that in our practice, some of our doctors are more comfortable with it, others are less comfortable. I know, myself, I'm very conservative when I discuss it with patients, because there is, you know, addiction concerns, misuse concerns, abuse concerns - I don't believe that it's to the degree of opioids, and I don't think that the risks are anywhere close to what they are with opioids - and while it's less in opioids, we have other things, fortunately, in this field that don't carry those concerns, and so, I certainly try to use those other options as much as possible before having the discussions about cannabinoids. That said, so many people are using them, and so I'm able to guide them towards, you know, telling that very often, doses that are lower than what they might need to get intoxicated might actually be the doses that are therapeutic, and recommending using high CBD and low THC is probably going to have less side effects, and there's some evidence towards, hopefully, having more therapeutic benefit, especially in our most recent study looking at acute migraine that you want to have that CBD component with the THC.
Dr Jones: That's outstanding. So, we know more than we used to. It still feels like a relatively understudied area (and that's partly been the regulatory barriers to doing science on cannabinoids), so we'll look forward to hearing the latest and greatest in the issue. When we think about in neurology - and I'm thinking here as a clinician - when we think about pain and neurology, we often think about neuropathic pain. And, personally, you know, I see a lot of patients who have peripheral generators for those symptoms of neuropathic pain, but central neuropathic pain is an issue, too - and we have articles on both of those, one on peripheral neuropathic pain, one on central neuropathic pain. For our listeners, what should they know about the differences between those two and the treatment approaches to those?
Dr Schuster: Yeah. So, we fortunately have two wonderful articles - one of them from Dr Charles Argoff looking at central neuropathic pain, another one looking at peripheral neuropathic pain from Drs Misha Bačkonja and Victor Wang. And one thing that I think is really interesting about central neuropathic pain is that for these same patients, we don't need to only be thinking about the central neuropathic pain alone, and not everything that they're experiencing is going to be central neuropathic pain, because they can have “frozen shoulder” - post-stroke shoulder pain is actually a really big deal. Of course, you need to be concerned about things like sacral decubitus ulcers in so many of these patients. And so, they can have nociceptive components in those same patients, and us as neurologists, taking care of these very complicated patients, need to have our eyes open for the central neuropathic components, but also in those same patients, the other pain generators that we can do a lot for.
Dr Jones: So, the musculoskeletal and other generators of pain are relevant. I think that's something that many of us have experienced. Certainly, when I trained, Dr Schuster, the general construct around pain was that it was a really biological phenomenon, and it's an adaptive phenomenon, but it becomes a clinical problem when the pain is unmanageable or out of proportion to the patient's coping skills, and it seems to have evolved - at least in terms of our understanding of it, how it impacts people's lives. It's not just a physical or biological process, right? There are psychological factors here, there are social factors here. How does that inform your thinking about management of pain?
Dr Schuster: Yeah, so, I think that that's one of the most important running themes throughout this issue of Continuum that readers will find, is that there's a movement away from the biomedical model towards the biopsychosocial model in thinking about patients. And, at least for myself, when I was coming out of neurology residency, my training was much more on the biomedical model and on medication treatments. And throughout this issue, what you'll find is discussions of the importance of the biopsychosocial model, having pain psychology as being a component of the treatment for so many of these patients. That medications alone (for many of our most challenging patients) won't be the answer by themselves - that you'll need to have involvement of physical therapy, of pain psychology. And we have an article written by the pain psychologist who I work with at UCSD, Dr Mirsad Serdarevic, which I think will be very interesting for so many neurologists. It's also wonderful that we have an article on facial pain that's written by a neurologist, Dr Meredith Barad, together with a dentist, Dr Marcela Romero-Reyes. So, it really takes a team to treat so many of these very challenging patients who we are treating in our neurological practices.
Dr Jones: Yeah, thanks for that. I realize that with a complex problem, a lot of times you need more than one area of expertise, right? It's a team process and a team effort. When you think about your own practice, Dr Schuster, when do you bring in other specialists or other perspectives in the management of patients with pain?
Dr Schuster: So, one of the articles that I really enjoyed reading in this forthcoming issue of Continuum is the one from Dr Narayan Kissoon on widespread pain syndromes. These patients who have widespread pain syndromes very often are the patients that I'm referring to our pain psychologist. Neurologists can do so much for these patients by making the right diagnosis. So often, these patients might be treated by one specialist for one organ system, another specialist for another organ system, and they can have so many different specialists, and they can be going from institution to institution. And a neurologist is in a really good position to be able to take the full history, put everything together and say, “I think you have a chronic overlapping pain condition. I think you have central sensitivity syndromes” - to be able to talk to them about their central nervous system being amped up, and that there are treatments that we can give them to help to treat these conditions, fibromyalgia and others, that affect so many of our patients who we encounter in neurologic practice. So, the International Association for the Study of Pain now has this term, nociplastic, and some people use the term neuroplastic to talk about these central sensitivity syndromes, and while not all neurologists maybe are hearing those terms used yet in clinical practice, I think it gives us a good framework - and between Dr Kissoon's article, as well as Dr Beth Hogans’ article on general principles of pain, I think that those will give the practicing neurologist a lot of good updates as to how our thinking about these patients has evolved.
Dr Jones: I know, as clinicians, we have a very cause-and-effect kind of component to our training, right? Here is the problem, here is the lesion, here is the result, and what do I do about it. I think patients also want to know what is the cause of the pain, and I think it's, maybe, historically been frustrating when someone clearly has pain and there's not a single factor, especially a removable factor, that causes it. So, I think, hopefully, having this language that we can use to communicate it with our better understanding of pain, hopefully that will help. Does that help you in your practice when you're talking to patients, when you explain what's going on? Is that well-received in general?
Dr Schuster: Yeah, you know, I think a lot of doctors are afraid to talk about fibromyalgia, for example, with patients. And what I'm finding in my practice, actually, is that a lot of patients are liberated when they can receive a diagnosis, such as fibromyalgia, that they can read about, they can learn about treatments for it, they can join support groups online and find that they're not alone - indeed, this condition affects 2 to 4% of people, and that very well could be a underdiagnosis. It keeps them from looking to different specialists for each painful body part and potentially having unneeded surgeries - and surgeries that might make things worse. So, I think physicians are understandably concerned because there is stigma - there's stigma around a lot of painful conditions, and there's stigma around some of the treatments that we use to treat these patients - and I think that physicians who are sensitive to that can sometimes be hesitant, but I'm really surprised how often patients are just really appreciative to get the right diagnosis.
Dr Jones: And you mentioned a minute ago that things have changed even since you came out of training, and, obviously, training is really important to know how to manage these problems. In my own world, I've seen, I think, an increase in the interest in pain management as a subspecialty among neurology trainees. There's obviously something that grabbed you, something that pulled you into this field. What's been your path to being a pain specialist?
Dr Schuster: Yeah, so I was a neurology resident at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center, and fortunately, there, they have a few pain neurologists - and also, in the community, we have a few other pain neurologists as well that I had the great fortune to work with. And I was so impressed, especially those who are doing both pain and headache treatment, that you were able to help so many people treating very high-prevalence conditions - very often, younger patients, people who are going through school, building families - and being able to really reduce their disability, improve their quality of life and the quality of lives of their families is very gratifying. So, I encountered that as a neurology resident. I had their mentorship. And then, I applied for both headache and pain fellowships, and I did both a headache fellowship and a pain fellowship - and I think that that's been a wonderful combination for my career. To have that mix of patients has been really wonderful for preventing burnout. I think having a combination of slightly different patient populations between the headache population and the pain population, as well as, of course, those who have comorbid headache and pain conditions, has been very gratifying to treat people with these conditions. Not that many neurology residents think about doing a pain fellowship, and I wrote, together with my good friend and colleague Jacob Hascalovici, back in 2018 (that was published in the Green Journal), an article on pain neurology as an emerging subspecialty within neurology - and certainly, I would encourage any neurology residents who are interested in potentially pursuing a pain fellowship to read this article. There's such a need for neurologists in the pain field.
Dr Jones: It can be a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? So, obviously, role modeling was important to you, right? You could see the practice when you were in training, when you could still make the decision, and if there aren't enough pain neurologists (which I think we can agree that there aren't), there are probably a lot of trainees who don't have that window into what that practice can be like, which, again, makes it kind of a barrier to folks entering the field - so, hopefully, being more comfortable with it will help our listeners and our readers, you know, integrate this into their practice and see it as a path forward for their own careers if they're interested. One last question for you, Dr Schuster, is - you know, looking into the future, obviously, when we have more options to treat these patients, it's rewarding and engaging and exciting - what do you think the next big thing in pain management is going to be? What should our listeners know that's coming down the road for these patients?
Dr Schuster: Yeah, so the interventional segment and the neuromodulation treatments are really changing a lot these last few years, and I believe are going to keep on evolving with new treatments coming down the pathway. And so, we have two wonderful and really nicely balanced articles on these topics: one of them from one of my former mentors from my UCLA days, Dr Vernon Williams, wrote one on spine pain, and he talks about the interventional pain treatments; and another from Dr Prasad Shirvalkar on neuromodulation for painful neuropathic diseases. And these are really wonderful articles for the neurologist who wants to learn about what treatments are available that, they might not personally be doing these, but that they can refer to colleagues - and these are changing a lot. Epidural steroid injections, for example: helpful for a lot of patients, but there's so much more to the interventional pain field than just that, and I think our practicing neurologists will learn a lot about, “Oh, what can neuromodulation be useful for within the pain field?” And, of course, because there's industry involvement in neuromodulation research, you need somebody who's really good at being very balanced, and I think Dr Shirvalkar did an incredible job about writing a really balanced article about the neuromodulation options that we have for patients with neuropathic pain disorders.
Dr Jones: It's exciting stuff. I think there's a lot to look forward to. I think the update that our readers and listeners will have from this issue will be extremely helpful for themselves in their practice and for their patients. For people who are audiophiles, each of these articles will have a corresponding podcast, so we'll refer people to that. And with that, Dr Schuster, I want to thank you for joining us for a really thorough, fascinating discussion on the field of pain neurology and our brand-new issue on pain neurology. And again, we've been speaking with Dr Nat Schuster, Guest Editor for Continuum’s most recent issue on pain neurology. Please check it out. And thank you to our listeners for joining today.
Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information, important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.
Over the past 20 years, more than 50 antibodies have been identified and associated with autoimmune neurologic disorders. Although advances in diagnostic testing have allowed for more rapid diagnosis, the therapeutic approach to these disorders has largely continued to rely on expert opinion, case series, and case reports.
In this episode, Allison Weathers, MD, FAAN, speaks with Tammy L. Smith, MD, PhD, an author of the article “Therapeutic Approach to Autoimmune Neurologic Disorders,” in the Continuum® August 2024 Autoimmune Neurology issue.
Dr. Weathers is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and associate chief medical information officer at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.
Dr. Smith is a GRECC investigator and staff neurologist at George E. Wahlen Veteran Affairs Medical Center and an assistant professor of neurology, at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Therapeutic Approach to Autoimmune Neurologic Disorders
Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum
Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME
Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud
More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com
Social Media
facebook.com/continuumcme
@ContinuumAAN
Transcript
Full episode transcript available here
Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum’s guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME.
Dr Weathers: This is Dr Allison Weathers. Today, I'm interviewing Dr Tammy Smith about her article on therapeutic approach to autoimmune neurologic disorders, which she wrote with Dr Stacey Clardy. This article is a part of the August 2024 Continuum issue on autoimmune neurology. Although, one of the things I love most about being an interviewer for Continuum is getting the opportunity to meet new neurologists and learn all about their areas of expertise, there's something really special when I get the chance to interview and catch up with old colleagues - and today, I'm fortunate to do just that. I had the privilege of working with Dr Smith when she was a resident at Rush, and I'm so excited to be able to speak to her today about her fantastic and really comprehensive article on this very timely topic. Welcome to the podcast, Dr Smith, and please introduce yourself to our audience.
Dr Smith: Hi. Yeah, thank you for inviting me to participate in the podcast and to write this article. So, I'm Tammy Smith. I am a neurologist who practices in Salt Lake City. I primarily work at the Salt Lake City VA Medical Center where I get to treat veterans with all sorts of neurologic diseases. I'm also an assistant professor of neurology at the University of Utah in the division of Neuroimmunology and Autoimmune Neurology, and I serve as a Clinical Consultant for ARUP Laboratories to help improve diagnostic testing for immune-mediated neurologic diseases.
Dr Weathers: Wow. That is a lot of different roles and things that you have on your plate. I want to start, actually, by talking about the article. Again, you cover so much ground (you and Dr Clardy) in this really comprehensive article, but if you had to choose the one most important message - if you wanted our listeners to walk away remembering one key point, what would it be?
Dr Smith: I think the key point I want our listeners to think about is just to use the resources that are available to you. Nobody can have all of these drugs (as we're talking about treatment of autoimmune neurologic diseases in this article) - no one can have all of those drugs memorized, all of the mechanisms of action, all of the approved treatments and off-label treatments, and all of the symptomatic therapies. But that's why resources like the Continuum exist - so that we can provide those resources to clinicians who are busy at that touch of, er, hopefully - or when they open their issue - to get the information they need to make decisions to take good care of their patients.
Dr Weathers: I think that is so reassuring. As I was reading this article, that was, like, one of the things that really struck me is that, you know, thinking about even being a resident and studying for something like the rate exam, you know, how much easier it used to be when there was such a limited number of drugs thinking about the autoimmune diseases or epilepsy, where just the number of drugs has just, kind of, multiplied so manyfold since I was in training, that it's really overwhelming. And I think you make a great (and as I said, a very reassuring) point that we don't have to memorize these, that there are these incredible resources (like Continuum) where it's not any longer about kind of memorization and keeping it in our heads, that it's more about knowing where to look and thinking about what's the right thing for the patient - knowing how to go and get the information is the more important knowledge there. And, actually, thinking about that and moving on, given your expertise, how do you personally approach the management of a patient with an autoimmune neurologic disorder? Again, in the article, you speak about all the different things to keep in mind, both from a therapeutic (really, treatment) standpoint, as well as a symptomatic standpoint - but what is your personal approach?
Dr Smith: My personal approach really involves considering whether the diagnosis of an autoimmune neurologic disorder is correct, first and foremost, and gathering the information to help support that diagnosis - and I think that's something that often gets overlooked in the excitement of a patient coming in with a rare-looking syndrome. Someone sends off diagnostic testing, rules out a few things, decides it's autoimmune, and starts down a pathway and keeps pushing forward. And I understand that inclination on a busy neurology service or in a busy clinic to just decide on one path and move forward, but I'm always questioning the diagnosis, even in the presence of positive antibody results sometimes. If my patient doesn't respond to the treatment that I'm giving them based on their presentation and the antibody results, I reassess and wonder if there's something else going on, are there two syndromes going on, or was that antibody result really not the right answer for some reason. So, I think my approach, really, is to always have a healthy amount of skepticism around the diagnosis, and even when I'm fairly confident in the diagnosis, to continually reassess that patient and their unique response to treatment. And then, also, their unique circumstances - so, everyone will need different symptomatic management, as well as different rehabilitation resources and other resources mobilized to help them maximize their recovery. And so, there's just not a “one size fits all” approach, but always keep talking to the patient, keep re-evaluating, stay curious, and don't be afraid to change paths when things aren't making sense.
Dr Weathers: I think that is incredibly sound, really thoughtful advice. So, I can imagine how incredibly challenging those cases must be when you think you have the right answer, it looks like it's lining up, the antibodies are pointing you in the right direction, and then, they're not responding. What else do you feel is the most challenging aspect of the management of these conditions? Is there some other kind of aspect that you also feel is really challenging in the treatment of these patients?
Dr Smith: Yeah, I think other challenges are really access to state-of-the-art therapies due to financial barriers - I think that's a pretty significant challenge for a lot of these patients, and I think we need to continue to work on advocacy efforts to make sure all patients have access to the medications they need to treat the disorders they are diagnosed with. And it's a real challenge, even when there's FDA-approved therapeutics - a lot of them are quite expensive, and then we end up playing the insurance game, and we learned that AI is automatically denying people's insurance claims, and so, we're battling computers as well as insurance companies. And I think that's a really significant challenge for a lot of these patients. And then, really, just the fact that a lot of immune-mediated neurologic disorders have a long tale. So, we don't treat a patient the same way we do for an infection and expect a dramatic and rapid recovery - a lot of the recovery for these patients happens over months to years. It's a process, and I think it's really important to be counseling patients and caregivers and other providers and educating them about this that we continue to mobilize resources to help our patients long past their inpatient hospitalization and the most dramatic part of their recovery.
Dr Weathers: Again, you raised some really insightful points there. No, I think they're really key. And I think, to your point, that even for some of these patients, that even if we can get over the economic barriers of the medications themselves and get them authorized, get them covered, you're left with, for a lot of patients, all of the other limitations of some of their social determinants of health challenges, right? So, the transportation challenges to even kind of get them to the appointments, and some of the other challenges they face, which makes some of these treatments very, very hard for them to be able to accomplish. So, it is very challenging - I think that's a very important call-out. What do you think is the easiest mistake to make when treating patients with autoimmune neurologic disorders, and how should our listeners avoid it?
Dr Smith: Yeah, that's an excellent question. One of the most common mistakes I see is either overvaluing diagnostic testing or not ordering the appropriate diagnostic testing for the clinical syndrome in any given patient. And where this comes into play, really, is the fact that when we order diagnostic testing in the United States for immune-mediated neurologic disorders, these autoantibody panels are available to us that test for a multitude of autoantibodies all at the same time, and if we don't choose the appropriate test for the clinical syndrome that the patient is there with, we run the risk of getting a positive result for an antibody that's unrelated to the syndrome we're seeing in the patient – and no test is 100% specific (or 100% sensitive, for that matter), but these low-specificity issues when you indiscriminately test really can cloud the clinical picture and delay getting the appropriate diagnosis. And so, I really think that one of the biggest mistakes is seeing maybe a low-positive result for an antibody that does not match the clinical syndrome if you go back to the books and use your resources to figure out if that result is meaningful - overvaluing that antibody result and maybe plowing forward with a treatment plan that involves a long course of immunomodulatory therapy is a pretty significant mistake. And then, on the flip side is that because these panel tests, you order them as a block, and you think that you ordered the right thing - or you think that whoever you asked to order the order for you ordered the right thing – and so often, people say the panel was negative, and they don't look at the individual results of the antibodies that were tested in the panel, and because different antibody panels are designed to test for different clinical phenotypes. I see the error where a clinician thinks that all of the antibodies necessary to test for were tested for and negative, and now they feel like their hands are tied. And so, it's both this overvaluing the diagnostic testing and forgetting to question the testing results if they're not what you expect once you get more clinical data - I think both of those are pretty big mistakes. And continuing, again, always be curious, always recheck results, and don't take laboratory values in an EMR that are in black and white as the stone-cold truth that tells you your answer - you have to stay curious about the patient, their history, their neurologic presentation, their response to treatment over time, and really keep assessing. My other soap box here about diagnostic testing is that, historically, a lot of the antibodies that we test for were called paraneoplastic (and that's because they were some of the first antibodies discovered, so, they were some of the earliest ones that we developed tests for), and clinical reference laboratories continue to offer paraneoplastic panels for historical reasons and because a lot of people think that that's what they want. But, paraneoplastic panels, in and of themselves, are not representative of a specific clinical phenotype - they just diagnose patients who have a high risk of malignancy associated with an antineural antibody. And so, most of the clinical reference labs I know of - certainly at ARUP, we have a notice on our testing page, I know Mayo Clinical Laboratories also has a notice that says, “Paraneoplastic panels are not generally the recommended panel to test for antineural antibodies. Consider ordering the phenotype-specific panel that fits the patient's clinical syndrome”. And I think that's super important – we still have paraneoplastic stuck in our head for historical reasons, and it is almost never the right answer.
Dr Weathers: It's really interesting. At my organization, you know, we actually have had some really thoughtful conversations about, do we really restrict it (you know, as part of lab stewardship efforts) - and, you know, these are expensive, and to your point, they can be frankly, really dangerous, you know, to really send somebody down this wrong path with a lot of surveillance, committing them to immunomodulatory therapies, and take you in completely the wrong direction when, actually, your low test probability was very low. So, I think that is an excellent one to really call out and for people to be very thoughtful of - and the way, again, to avoid it is to be very thoughtful about the panels. And for people, certainly, they are very convenient, but people need to be really aware of what's in them and what they are ordering and how to interpret them. And I love that advice about not just thinking about the wholesale as negative - really, you know, for many of us, they are still coming in as scan documents, you know, click into them, read every line, really understand what those results mean.
Dr Smith: And I would also say that I think people don't realize, but clinical reference laboratories would love for you to reach out when there are questions. So, if you don't understand the diagnostic testing that was performed or result, you pretty much all have hotlines. You can call and reach out to an expert in the testing and ask them some questions, and don't be afraid to reach out to your colleagues who might have more experience. We love hearing from people with questions and helping to direct them to the right testing and help them get the answers that they really want to for their patients.
Dr Weathers: I think that is a great plug. Before you order, preferably, before you send in.
Dr Smith: I do like when I hear from people before mistakes were made. Yes. That's nice.
Dr Weathers: It’s a great point.
Dr Smith: When you order these panels, you do run the risk of having these low positive results that may or may not be clinically meaningful. And we do recommend that most of the diagnostic testing be ordered in both serum and CSF. And so, a good example of a mistake that can be made is a very low-positive NMDA-receptor antibody in serum - maybe it was ordered for a patient with cognitive decline or confusion (maybe not under the ideal clinical scenario for ordering), and then it's negative in the CSF. So, an NMDA-receptor positive, negative in the CSF, not the right clinical picture, people can get really jazzed and want to treat an NMDA-receptor encephalitis, that in that case, really isn't meeting diagnostic criteria, and there are excellent diagnostic criteria that have been developed and published for that disorder and for several other autoimmune neurologic disorders, and I think going back to those criteria and really questioning yourself before you start blindly down a path based on a lab result is really important.
Dr Weathers: I think that's excellent advice, too, always keeping that in mind that just because you have gone down this path and gotten that result doesn't mean that you are stuck and committed to it. Always keeping that criteria in mind, always going back, always checking it is really important as well. Moving on from mistakes to kind of an adjacent question, what do you think is the biggest controversy right now when it comes to the treatment of patients with autoimmune neurologic disorders?
Dr Smith: You know, one of the big controversies that I see and I'm concerned about is that we've gotten into a habit of treating the way we've always treated based on expert opinion, and while experts have their opinions based on a lot of experience, they don't take the place of well-designed randomized controlled clinical trials - and in rare diseases (like autoimmune neurologic diseases), it can be really challenging to conduct those trials, especially in the face of people who have a pathway that they always do with their patients. If they have a NMDA-receptor encephalitis patient, they feel very comfortable doing their standard of care with IV steroids and then either plasma exchange or IVIG, and then possibly (and very often), I see following with a B-cell inhibitor, like rituximab, as sort of just a “kitchen-sink” approach to treatment. And while I understand the passion and the desire to make a really sick patient sitting in front of us better as fast as possible, I don't think we have adequate evidence to support that being the “one-size-fits-all kitchen-sick” approach for treatment. And I really am passionate about all clinicians all over the world, supporting randomized controlled clinical trials that are well-designed with the backing of experts in the community, so that when we look at a patient and tell them that we recommend a course of treatment, we're recommending it based on the best quality evidence available, not just what everyone's always done before. I think we can do better than that. And I think there's some controversy in this. Some people think that it doesn't make sense, we already know the answer, but I would say we haven't asked the right question and thoroughly investigated enough. And this is especially important with children, right? We know pediatric patients often don't have well-designed clinical trials to guide their treatments - but in NMDA-receptor encephalitis, many of the patients are children, and I think that they deserve to be involved in well-designed clinical trials in order to support the recommendations that we make for treatment.
Dr Weathers: And in addition to children, think about all of the other patient populations that have traditionally not been well represented in trials, right - pregnant patients, patients of color (historically very underrepresented in trials) - many, many other patient populations that have not been adequately represented.
Dr Smith: Absolutely. Yeah. I think we need to really care about that and face that problem head on and speak to it. We can't just say this is the way we've always done things, so we're going to keep doing it that way. I think we owe it to our patients and ourselves, when we look our patients in the eye, to say that we have good evidence to support the recommendations we're making.
Dr Weathers: I think we have already answered this question in many ways with each of the questions we've already talked about, but is there any other strong arguments that you can make for why it's important for neurology clinicians to read your article?
Dr Smith: Dr Clardy and I spent a lot of time working on this article, trying to put together a piece that will be a resource that people could turn to again and again. I don't think that this article is something that you should read from top to bottom and think that you've absorbed and digested everything, right? So, what we work to do was to really provide a structure and a framework to think about the treatment of immune-mediated neurologic diseases. So, rather than memorizing specific drugs for specific conditions, we developed sort of a space where you could talk about B-cell targeting therapies and the different ways we can target B-cells, we talked about complement inhibitors, neonatal FC receptors, and, really, just at a high level, how these drugs work and how they're targeted, so that going forward in three, four, five years, what I believe we'll know more about each of the individual diseases mediated by antineural antibodies. When we understand what causes that disease, we'll be able to go to a resource like this and choose rationally based on mechanism of action, a drug to treat our patient - even if it's in a patient with such a rare disease that we don't have the luxury of a clinical trial to guide our choices.
Dr Weathers: That's a really excellent point - and I know I've said it a few times, but I think you guys did such a really excellent job at really laying it out in a way that makes it this really comprehensive, really easy-to-use resource at that point of care for providers to be able to do exactly that. Well, I always like to end on a hopeful note, so, this is always my favorite last question – but, what do you think is the next breakthrough coming in the treatment of patients with autoimmune neurologic diseases?
Dr Smith: Yeah, I think in the near future (I certainly hope, at least) that the next breakthrough is going to be in really being able to deliver personalized care based on what we understand about the mechanisms of a patient's rare disease. So, again, right now, I find we're kind of left with the “kitchen-sink” approach because we know so little about the mechanisms that drive each of these unique neurologic diseases and we don't have enough information from clinical trials to inform rational treatment decisions, so we go with these broad approaches - and I really think that in the near future, with work being done by a lot of people (dedicated people over the world) on biomarkers and things that predict either onset of disease or relapse or disease severity or really looking at basic fundamental mechanisms that drive disease, we're going to be able to make more rational choices in the treatment of these patients and mobilize the resources that are expensive, but valuable for the right patient at the right time.
Dr Weathers: That is a very exciting and hopeful future to look towards. Thank you, Dr Smith, for joining me on Continuum Audio. It was wonderful to get to spend this time with you again. Again, today, I've been interviewing Dr Tammy Smith, whose article on therapeutic approach to autoimmune neurologic disorders, written with Dr Stacey Clardy, appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on autoimmune neurology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today.
Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at Continpub.com/AudioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.
Basic knowledge of the common CNS manifestations of rheumatologic diseases and sarcoidosis is important. In the context of many systemic inflammatory diseases, CNS disease may be a presenting feature or occur without systemic manifestations of the disease, making familiarity with these diseases even more important.
In this episode, Kait Nevel, MD speaks with Jennifer A. McCombe, MD, author of the article “Neurologic Manifestations of Rheumatologic Disorders,” in the Continuum® August 2024 Autoimmune Neurology issue.
Dr. Nevel is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a neurologist and neuro-oncologist at Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Dr. McCombe is an associate professor in the Division of Neurology, Department of Medicine at the University of Alberta, Edmonton in Alberta, Canada.
Additional Resources
Read the article: Neurologic Manifestations of Rheumatologic Disorders
Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum
Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME
Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud
More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com
Social Media
facebook.com/continuumcme
@ContinuumAAN
Host: @headacheMD
Guest: @Div_Dubey
Transcript
Full episode transcript available here
Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum’s guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME.
Dr Nevel: Hello. This is Dr Kait Nevel. Today, I'm interviewing Dr Jennifer McCombe about her article on neurosarcoidosis and neurologic involvement of rheumatological disorders, which appears in the August 2024 Continuum issue on autoimmune neurology. Welcome to the podcast, and I would love to have you introduce yourself to the audience.
Dr McCombe: Well, thank you, and thank you for having me. As you said, my name is Jen McCombe. I'm a neurologist in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, where I spend kind of a third of my time in teaching roles (I coordinate the undergraduate block for our medical school there), I spend about a third of my time in a neuroinflammatory clinic in Edmonton, Alberta, and then about a third of my time doing clinical research.
Dr Nevel: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for being here today and for chatting with me about your article on this topic.
Dr McCombe: Thank you for having me.
Dr Nevel: To start off, can you share with the listeners a little bit about your career path?
Dr McCombe: Absolutely. Yeah. So, I've had, uh, a bit of a circuitous career path. I did my medical school in Queens (which is in Eastern Canada, in Kingston, Ontario) and then went back to Edmonton, Alberta, for my residency (in Canada, we have a five-year residency program, so a little bit different than the US), but finished my residency and then did a master's degree in Public Health at Johns Hopkins while completing clinical research in HIV, actually, and did this thing we call the Clinical Scholar Training Program – so, kind of like a fellowship, but a little bit more, you know, research and academic-based. So, when I first started, I was focused more on neuroinfectious diseases, and that's kind of what my career path looked like at the time - but, actually, shortly after I finished my residency program, I also had my first child, and he, unfortunately, developed opsoclonus-myoclonus syndrome, and at the time (this was in 2010), it was a rather rare condition, so, I ended up finding myself having to become a bit of a neuroinflammatory disease specialist at the same time. So, at that point, I transitioned into working in the neuroinflammatory clinic with some mentorship but was getting all of the kind of weird and wonderful referrals and diagnostic dilemmas from my colleagues who recognized I kind of developed some expertise, and so decided (actually, mid-career) to take a sabbatical, and in 2021, completed a fellowship in autoimmune neurology at the Mayo Clinic. So, I finished that quite recently and then went back, and now I'm feeling much more, I guess, confident, too. Sometimes, you wonder about, you know, the choices you're making. I recognize most of the conditions I'm dealing with don't have, in fact, any evidence for their treatment, and that was confirmed when I went to the Mayo Clinic and found that, really, it was just trying to gain an understanding of the disease process to make a rational choice to medications and treatments. So, now, I'm back and kind of trying to focus a little bit more on some clinical research in that area since I've kind of solidified that expertise.
Dr Nevel: Wow. Well, thank you for sharing with us your career path and how, you know, unexpected life events kind of changed your interests or molded your interests (changed kind of the things that you became expert in, you know), and being fluid in your career path and willing to kind of take a break and reassess and get additional training. That's really inspiring to, I think, to me, and probably to a lot of listeners, that you can always, you know, develop more expertise in the more niche area or additional area no matter where you are in your stage of life or career path.
Dr McCombe: Yeah.
Dr Nevel: So, can you tell us a little bit more about - you know, you shared with us kind of autoimmune inflammatory disorders and how you became interested in that, neurosarcoidosis, specifically (you know the article focuses on that), and what's your background in neurosarcoidosis, how you became interested in that specifically and in neurologic manifestations of rheumatologic disorders?
Dr McCombe: I started in our neuroinflammatory clinic over a decade ago, and, you know, at the time, a lot of the expertise in any of these neuroinflammatory disorders was quite spread out over the country, and so, as I kind to alluded to before, often some of the more complicated patients where there wasn't necessarily clear-cut evidence or even, you know, a fellowship path to get there, I would end up getting referrals for - and so, I developed quite a cohort of patients with central nervous system primarily, but other types of neuroinflammatory and autoimmune neurologic diseases, and part of that cohort was a rather large (and still growing) group of patients with neurosarcoidosis. And so, I kind of developed some practical expertise, although, as you can see in the article (and as I'm sure you all know), the approach to the treatment is extremely variable. One of the most telling things is when we were at the Mayo Clinic, one of my co-fellows actually pulled all of the neurologists in neuroinflammation at all of the Mayo Clinic sites and asked them, you know, what is your treatment approach to a patient with neurosarcoidosis, and I think got twelve completely different responses as to the medications chosen and the length of time for the tapers and things like that. So, you know, it is very much a part of neurologic disease treatment that we still really don't have great evidence for, and although we do have some kind of rational choices that we can make based on other types of evidence, so -
Dr Nevel: Yeah.
Dr McCombe: And I enjoy working with patients with these types of diseases where we can kind of work together to come up with a treatment plan that makes sense for them and also makes sense based on whatever evidence we do have at this time.
Dr Nevel: Yeah. So, moving on to the article a little bit, knowing that this is a area of neurology where there's a lot of, you know, maybe personal expertise and experience but not a ton of data or evidence to necessarily guide our standardization to our treatments and approach, what do you think is the most important clinical takeaway from your article for our listeners?
Dr McCombe: Well, I mentioned before I coordinate the neuro block for our undergraduate program here, so I've developed over the years (I've been doing that for a number of years) a curriculum that's all based on, kind of, that approach to - and I like to do it that way because it's very practical. I like the students to be able to basically take their class notes and then go to the emergency department on their first shift as a clerk and, you know, use their approach to headache that I've developed for them to kind of take a clinical history and examine a patient with that sort of problem. And so, similar to that, I tried to do an approach to, you know, a couple of the more common presentations that would make you think of a rheumatologic condition or neurosarcoidosis in looking at the approach to CNS vasculitis and the approach to, uh, pachymeningitis - and these are difficult differentials for lots of neurologists, because it really relies on a lot of medicine knowledge, and we graduate from our residencies slightly more confident in our medicine knowledge, because we get a lot of that in our residencies. But as neurologists, as we go through our careers, we get much more confident in our areas of specialty, and at least for myself and many of my colleagues, much less confident in other things like general medicine. And so, it's difficult, because you have to face your areas of potentially less confident knowledge and really think about that in the differential - and so, I think, you know, I put those two big “approach to” sections in there, because they're the most relevant for the conditions that I was covering. But, I think also what I would say to a learner or a more experienced neurologist who might be reading the article, kind of pick out the little things that you might add to your own kind of approach to - you know, when you see that person with an ataxia, remember that Sjogren syndrome is one of the things you might consider that could be a treatable cause, or you want to see a sensory neuronopathy, don't just think paraneoplastic – again, Sjogren syndrome. So, kind of pick out those little pearls and add them to your approach to that patient that we all see, and I think that would be my biggest takeaway.
Dr Nevel: Yeah. Thank you. So, kind of like, keep this information from the article in mind so that you keep rheumatologic disorders in mind as a possibility when you're approaching a patient with whatever neurologic symptoms they're presenting with. So, what do you think is challenging? You kind of already mentioned a little bit, you know, just that it stretches us maybe into the medicine arena and so maybe stretches our medical knowledge, especially as we become more subspecialized or focused in neurology - but what is challenging about identifying, diagnosing neurologic symptoms as being related or due to an underlying rheumatologic disorder?
Dr McCombe: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, as you said, you know, it forces us to kind of face that medicine stuff that we might not be as comfortable with, but I think what else is challenging is that, sometimes, those medical clues aren't there. For the rheumatologic disorders for the most part, they are. Sjogren’s is potentially a little bit different in that, potentially, the symptoms are less obvious or a little bit more subtle. But, in particular, with neurosarcoidosis, there's a distinct proportion of the patients that won't, in fact, have any systemic complications of their underlying disease, and so, you have to think about it even when the clues aren't there. That's why you have to add it to those kind of differential diagnoses where it might be considered, because those systemic clues that we all rely on when we do our review of systems and we ask about rashes and joint pain and lung issues, and these sorts of things may not be there - and so, you still have to think about it even when it might be completely isolated to the central nervous system.
Dr Nevel: What is our understanding of why some patients with rheumatologic disorders develop neurologic involvement? Do we have an understanding? Do we know why some patients do and some patients don't? I know that's, you know, kind of, uh - that's a tough question, but that was something that I thought of as I was reading your article, like, why does this happen to some people?
Dr McCombe: Absolutely. I mean, I think, potentially, it's a little bit more clear for some of them, like rheumatoid arthritis, because, typically, if you develop a CNS complication of this, it's, in fact, just because you've had the disease for a very long time, and often, it's uncontrolled, and so you think about the disease “spreading” now to the central nervous system - but for other conditions, like neurosarcoidosis, it is much less clear, and even if you look at the epidemiologic patterns for that, it makes it even more muddied in that in some populations, it appears that they develop more central nervous system disease, whereas in others, less. And so, why that is the case and why certain individuals might develop this complication of these diseases I think is yet to be seen.
Dr Nevel: Yeah, that's always the crux of things if we can figure out the why, then maybe we could prevent it, right?
Dr McCombe: Million-dollar question always.
Dr Nevel: Always. So, what do you find the most intriguing about neurologic involvement of rheumatologic disorders?
Dr McCombe: Well, I think one of the things that, really, I mean, for neurosarcoidosis in particular, so many patients do so well, and that's what I really like about it. You know, you see patients who present with an incredible burden of disease radiologically, and yet, don't look nearly as sick as they should when they're sitting in front of you. And then, you start them on therapies and some of them do so well, and even those with relatively devastating deficits, or moderate disease who do have neurologic symptoms, have a remarkable improvement in their neurologic symptoms with treatment. And so, that's always something that's quite rewarding when you get to see these patients in follow-up, and they're generally quite thankful because they're doing so well. And it's different from many of the neurologic diseases that we treat. I mean, in autoimmune neurology, we're lucky because we do have a number of diseases that are quite treatable and patients can have wonderful outcomes. But, you know, it's always scary when we see patients with devastating neurologic signs and it's great to see improvement with treatment. And so, that really draws me to it.
Dr Nevel: Yeah, absolutely. That's really rewarding when you're able to help somebody get better in such a profound way.
Dr McCombe: Mm hmm.
Dr Nevel: What is one common misconception about neurologic manifestations of rheumatologic disorders? Or what do you think is not well understood by treating clinicians?
Dr McCombe: I think probably one of the things I see the most is, sometimes, an undertreatment of the patient. And so, I see patients who, you know, other clinicians may have seen and have made the diagnosis, and perhaps it's a lack of confidence in the diagnosis and so they kind of want somebody else with a subspecialty to kind of confirm the diagnosis, but that treatment hasn't been initiated despite pathological confirmation on biopsy of another tissue. And these patients, like I alluded to before, they do well, but you need to treat them and you need to treat them adequately, and when their symptoms are quite impairing, you need to treat them adequately now. And so I think, sometimes, that delay in starting a second-line therapy and relying on steroids for too long - those sorts of things can really expose a patient to a lot of different side effects and to a lot of different complications that they may not have had, too. So, that's why I spent some time focusing on the treatment, because I think just gaining a little bit of comfort with some of these more common second-line medications is a good thing, because starting those early, I think, makes sense because you can really save the patient a lot. And then, the other thing, too, is that when you're using steroids, think about all of the systemic things that you're causing - think about the increased risk of infection and the fact that you need to prophylax for certain infections, think about bone health, think about protecting the lining of someone's stomach - so not only kind of thinking about your disease in isolation and what you need to do for treatment, but that you need to ensure that you're appropriately prescribing the patient all of the things they need to do to protect themselves during these times.
Dr Nevel: Yeah. I think that's so important. And I'm glad that you brought that up, because I think, unfortunately, many of us have seen a patient who ended up having PJP pneumonia (or something like that) because they weren't put on antibiotic coverage for prolonged steroid use or, you know, bone health - all of that is really important to think about. So, this may be entering a territory where there's no, you know, great evidence, but you mentioned, you know, starting kind of that maintenance or second-line agent - when do you decide to do that in patients? And maybe we can focus (since it gets a little broad), but, you know, in a patient with neurosarcoidosis, let's say - when you're starting the steroids, when do you decide, okay, this person is also going to need a maintenance therapy? Is that something that you do at the beginning when you're starting the steroids, or is that something that you think about later on depending on how their course goes?
Dr McCombe: Yeah. In my practice, I do it at the outset - again, because I'm quite focused on, you know, as soon as I get them on it, getting people off steroids - and so I start essentially almost all of my patients on it unless there's some other contraindication or complication to their disease. And because I deal with central nervous system complications in the vast majority of my patients, I'm starting a TNF-a inhibitor as well as methotrexate, and that's because I see a lot of patients with cord disease and significant brain disease, and so I want to treat them kind of more aggressively from the outset. And so, typically, they'll be on steroids, um, a TNF-a inhibitor, as well as methotrexate, and then I just back off, actually, as they do well. And so, I try to taper the steroids quite quickly over the course of just a number of weeks, or kind of two to three months at most. I maintain the TNF-a inhibitor, and then in some patients, depending on how they're doing, I might eventually stop the methotrexate. Some patients tolerate it so well that we don't for a number of months - other patients want to try to minimize their medications as quick as they can. So, that's my personal practice. In the province where I live, we don't have to worry about access to these medications, and so I understand that that might be an issue in some centers where people practice and have different access and different funding. Of course, I live in a country where we have universal healthcare, and in our province, I have very good access to these medications and they're funded from my patients regardless of socioeconomic status, and so I have the luxury of making these choices and I understand that other people might not, but that's my personal practice and I find it works quite well in the vast majority of patients.
Dr Nevel: Yeah. And you bring up a really good point that, you know, access to some of these medications for patients with CNS manifestations of sarcoidosis, neurosarcoidosis, sometimes can be challenging to treating the patient with medications that you feel like would be best for them. But that's wonderful that you don't have those access issues where you live. How long do you typically continue the TNF-a inhibitor in patients, since you mentioned, you know, tapering off the steroids, tapering off the methotrexate, potentially depending on patient tolerance and course. What's your approach to the TNF-a inhibitor?
Dr McCombe: Yeah, so, of course I follow them clinically, and then radiologically as well, and it's really satisfying if you can see the resolution of their symptoms as well as resolution of the abnormalities and the MRI, so I let that guide me a little bit. But, in most patients, I keep them on therapy for about one to two years, and then at that point, see if I can cease it in some patients. And I, again, continue to follow them radiologically and clinically after I cease it so that I can ensure that I'm catching their disease more quickly if it does come back and then can just reinitiate therapy, but in lots of patients you're able to stop the medication and they have persisting, kind of, disease freedom after that, and so they don't need to be on anything.
Dr Nevel: Yeah, great. And I'm almost hesitant to focus so much on neurosarcoidosis. (It was the rheumatologic manifestation that you talked about the most in your article.) I'm going to put in a plug for everybody to read your article so that they can read about neurologic manifestations of rheumatoid arthritis, Sjogren’s, lupus, Behcet’s - many more things. But focusing on neurosarcoidosis, it can be difficult in my experience to definitively diagnose, and people who have neurosarcoidosis particularly, and people who don't seem to have any systemic manifestations or, you know, imaging findings consistent with sarcoidosis - can you share your approach with us? And you outlined this in your article nicely, too, but your personal approach to patients with suspected neurosarcoidosis, and how you make that clinical decision to treat somebody with possible neurosarcoidosis, somebody who maybe you're not able to get pathologic evidence on?
Dr McCombe: Absolutely. Yeah, those ones are difficult. And, you know, whenever possible (as I mentioned in my article), I think pathological evidence of a diagnosis is important, because then when you find yourself a year down the road and a treatment path and you have uncertainty, it's much more difficult to consider continuing medications that can have quite a number of side effects when you're not absolutely certain about that diagnosis. But, in some patients, you know, I've had patients who might have nondiagnostic biopsies (if you attempt to do a biopsy), or they have disease in a site that really just isn't amenable to biopsy, or they have some other reason they can't have a biopsy. So, how I approach that is that, you know, if you think about possible neurosarcoidosis similar to any other nondiagnosed, you know, blow out-like lesion (for lack of a better term) in the CNS, if it's steroid-responsive, I think that kind of going down a path of treating it as a steroid-responsive lesion is kind of the approach that I take - so the diagnosis in the chart might be possible neurosarcoidosis, but in the back of my mind, I'm just thinking of kind of a steroid-responsive nondiagnostic or idiopathic lesion. So, I then follow that up typically with something like methotrexate (so, a more broader- spectrum immunosuppressant-type medication), and if the methotrexate is able to maintain the response that the steroids initiated, then eventually get them off the steroids. And so, you know, if I think about my patients that I've treated in the past, if they have a diagnosis of possible neurosarcoidosis, I probably don't start a TNF-a inhibitor as quickly in them, because in the back of my mind, I'm always wondering what type of inflammatory lesion this is, but that steroid responsiveness really helps me decide to start a second-line or maintenance therapy and then, typically, in those patients, as I mentioned, I'll start something like methotrexate a little bit more soon.
Dr Nevel: Yeah, great. Thanks for sharing that with us. So, what do you think comes next in this field? What excites you? Where do you think our next kind of development or understanding or breakthrough, whether it's diagnostic or treatment-wise?
Dr McCombe: I think, in the field, you know, any immunologic diseases, we've been really gaining a much better understanding of pathophysiology, and that's honestly what excites me the most, when you can know precisely what part of the immune system is at play here (whether it's, you know, complement-mediated or antibody-mediated) and then being able to then rationally choose medications based on a really clear understanding of the disease is something that I think is kind of novel in a way. For so many years, we would use kind of big broad-spectrum immunosuppression - even in multiple sclerosis, still, we use medications that, historically, we've found to be helpful - but we don't have a great understanding sometimes of why the medicines work. So, kind of going at it from the other way, where we're actually determining what is the exact pathophysiology of disease and then making a rational approach to a therapy, or choosing a therapy based on that, I think is what excites me the most, and I think we'll gain a better understanding of even a broader swath of diseases and be able to make those choices more often. That's what I like about this field.
Dr Nevel: Great. Well, thank you so much for sharing that - and looking forward to the future in this area of neurology. And thanks so much for talking with me today and sharing your story and your expertise and knowledge.
Dr McCombe: Well, thank you for having me. It's been fun.
Dr Nevel: And I encourage all the listeners to read your article. Again, today, I've been interviewing Dr Jennifer McCombe, whose article on neurosarcoidosis and neurologic involvement of rheumatologic disorders appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on autoimmune neurology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues, and thank you to our listeners for joining today.
Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at Continpub.com/AudioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.
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