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Michael Lee is a professor of communication and the director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. He came to civility work through competitive debate—and found that debate, at its best, is deeply connective and dialogic. In this conversation, Michael and Wilk explore what’s really going on when people avoid disagreement, and why that silence is often more damaging than conflict.

 They dig into the nervous system roots of fight, flight, freeze, and fawn—and how those responses show up in everyday conversations, especially online. Michael makes a sharp distinction between healthy stress and distress, arguing that real growth requires exposure to discomfort, not protection from it.

 One of the episode’s most powerful ideas: people confuse conversation with complicity. Michael unpacks why that conflation is so common and what tools—perspective-taking, norm-setting, reciprocity—can help us move past it. And he reminds us that the stranger you’re afraid to talk to is more likely to become a friend than an adversary.

 If you’ve ever felt like civility is code for “stay quiet,” this conversation is for you.

Learn more about and connect with Michael Lee by getting the full show notes for this episode at www.DerateTheHate.com. 

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