Conversational Counseling

Disclaimer: This season is about trauma, and it might be difficult at times for some listeners. It’s not graphic, but each episode does cover sensitive topics.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! <<⁠

In our suffering stories, we often struggle to understand God and His sovereignty. If He is everywhere, why didn’t He protect? If He is loving, why did He allow something so painful and devastating? 

We wrestle with the questions trauma brings to mind in this episode, but we also turn our attention to the character and promises of God. While we may never learn the answers to these questions in the now and not yet, we can explore His character and His truth.

We serve a God who not only sent His only Son to take on our sin and sympathize with our temptations but One who also meets us in our pain. As Isaiah proclaims, He is a God who does not forsake His children and draws near to the broken-hearted. Many psalms of lament show that pain and suffering may last for a time, but these psalms also remind us that the Lord is still present and walking with us in this suffering. 

In this episode, we offer tools to help all of us process our pain and share the messiest parts of our thoughts and our wrestling with God. He is not afraid of our questions or our doubts, but He meets us in this place with grace and kindness. Even in the darkest parts of our stories, He will not forsake us.

Resources:

“How God Begins to Describe Himself in the Bible” by BibleProject

Real Life Discipleship Counseling Class: Lament

S5 Ep. 3 / Carol Collier on Lament: How to Cry Out to God in Suffering

S5 Ep. 4 / How to Write a Lament

Joyful Journey: Listening to Immanuel by E. James Wilder, Anna Kang, and John Loppnow

S4 Ep. 2 / Anxiety Part 1

S4 Ep. 2 / Anxiety Part 2

Dr. Lisa Miller / Spirituality Mind Body Institute

“Where is God When There’s Abuse?” with Diane Langberg

“What We Find ‘Beneath Old Grey Olive Trees’” by Eric G. Evans

Immanuel Prayer Experience

Season 9 of Conversational Counseling on “Trauma.”

To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Known Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

Disclaimer: This season is about trauma, and it might be difficult at times for some listeners. It’s not graphic, but each episode does cover sensitive topics.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! <<⁠

We’re excited to welcome our dear friend, Tiffany Higginbotham, to this episode! Tiffany is a physical therapist who specializes in pelvic floor therapy and is the co-founder of BrainPump. She is passionate about helping her patients find healing not just for their bodies but also their minds and souls.

In the counseling and medical communities, we’ve witnessed a disconnect. Sometimes in counseling, the mind, soul and heart are emphasized and the physical body can be overlooked, while in medical fields, the physical body is emphasized but the other three can all too often be ignored. As we explore a biblical framework for trauma, we must recognize the first thing God gives humans to steward is their bodies, and the effects of suffering can influence the body as well as the mind, soul, and heart. Trauma can fragment our identity and cause us to wrestle with complex emotions and with God. It also influences the brain and body’s reactions to future experiences, ability to process, communicate, and self-regulate. 

As we recognize how trauma affects our whole person, we can learn compassion for ourselves in our own wrestling and healing and for others as we walk alongside them. In this episode, we discuss the physical means God has created to help us return to our window of tolerance and offer exercises and practices we can use to regulate our body and focus on the Father’s promises. As we understand the physiological responses God designed in our bodies, we can better serve sufferers and encourage physical, mental, and spiritual healing.

Resources:

“560 Biblical Passages on Embodied-Souls” by Bob Kelleman

Breath as Prayer: Calm Your Anxiety, Focus Your Mind, and Renew Your Soul by Jennifer Tucker

Dr. Mike Emlet

Dr. Todd Stryd

Progressive Muscle Relaxation Script

Mid-Day Stress Relief | Guided Breathwork(Note: We do not endorse the beliefs of the company who produced this video, but the video itself does encourage useful breathwork practices)

“50 Biblical Counseling Resources on Trauma and Trauma Care” by Bob Kelleman

Season 9 of Conversational Counseling on “Trauma.”

To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Known Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

Disclaimer: This season is about trauma, and it might be difficult at times for some listeners. It’s not graphic, but each episode does cover sensitive topics.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! <<⁠

You don’t need a degree to provide vital comfort and support for someone processing their suffering story. Yet many of us struggle to know how to help or we’ve misstepped in the past and fear another failure. In this episode, we offer advice on using the comfort God has given us in our own stories to comfort others. 

As we explore a biblical framework for trauma, we need to recognize the mistakes we’ve made and the Church has made when supporting others who have been traumatized. Too often we have re-wounded someone who has disclosed a traumatic experience or experiences to us. In order to effectively support others that come to us for comfort, we must be willing to see how we’ve failed in the past and where we need to grow.

When we walk alongside others, we can shift the narrative that’s too often applied to trauma discussions. “What’s wrong with you?” can become “What happened to you?” As we recognize how trauma has distorted our creation desires, we can purposefully reinforce God’s original design for our desires by supporting agency and reminding the sufferer of their identity in the Father. 

Resources:

S3 Ep. 7 / Miserable Counselors: Key Elements of Everyday Ministry

S1 Ep. 6 / Show Up, Shut Up, Speak Up

“When Your Counselor Makes Your Life Worse” by Bob Kelleman

“Suffering and the Heart of God” by Diane Langberg

Season 9 of Conversational Counseling on “Trauma.”

To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Known Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

Disclaimer: This season is about trauma, and it might be difficult at times for some listeners. It’s not graphic, but each episode does cover sensitive topics.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions forConversational Counselingsent straight to your email! <<⁠

We invite you into our wrestling in this episode as we work towards a biblical framework of trauma. 

Shame, suffering, and sin cause us to wrestle with ourselves, our experiences, and even with the Father’s promises. Many of us are struggling with the aftermath of trauma, whether of one experience or a pattern. These experiences cause real emotional and physical responses in our bodies if we feel powerlessness and abandonment, and can lead to long term physical effects or spiritual struggles.

As we learn more about our Father and His character, we have the opportunity to recognize the connection between our physical body, soul, and spirit and embrace comfort and change. When faced with a traumatic experience, our bodies might become stuck in our natural mechanisms of protection - such as fight, flight, or freeze - even after the danger itself has passed. We may be unable to logically process emotions or to sort through complex and contradictory feelings. Trauma brings shame and fragmentation that can cripple our ability to function normally.

In this place, we might question God. We might lose sight of our identity in Christ and embrace inadequacy or self-hatred instead. We encourage you to not fear this wrestling or this tension. Trauma is a reality of the period before the final restoration. With care, time, and the Holy Spirit’s comfort, we can begin to find healing and restoration in the now and not yet.

Perhaps you’re experiencing shame or fragmentation from a wounding in your life. Maybe you believe our culture’s emphasis on trauma is overused or dramatic or you think the church hasn’t focused enough on trauma. We hope this episode encourages you that our Father will meet you wherever you are in your story and that you will be inspired to seek comfort and change in your own life and walk with others as they do the same.

Resources:

"The Beautiful" by David Wilcox

The Wounded Heartby Dan Allender

Building a Resilient Life: How Adversity Awakens Strength, Hope, and Meaningby Rebekah Lyons

Season 9 ofConversational Counselingon “Trauma.”

To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Known Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

Disclaimer: This season is about trauma, and it might be difficult at times for some listeners. It’s not graphic, but each episode does cover sensitive topics.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! <<⁠

How can we as imperfect and often wounded Christians deal with trauma in our churches, our communities, and our families?

This season we’re diving into the topic of trauma and the resources God has given us to encourage healing. We’re defining trauma as our experience of a painful event that causes us to feel both powerlessness and abandonment that results in shame and fragmentation. 

God did not intend this sin or pain or trauma in our world. He created us for beauty, rest, peace, and purpose. Because of sin, shame and trauma can alienate us from our identity as children of God and distort our purpose to beautify and multiply. Although our Savior has defeated sin once and for all, we are waiting for the final restoration in the now and the not yet. The wounding of trauma is still real for so many of us, presenting itself in a multitude of different ways.

Just as He called the children of Israel to remember their captivity in Egypt, God calls us to remember the painful parts of our story. Yet He doesn’t call us to remain in that pain. As He reminded the children of Israel of His deliverance, He draws our attention to the healing and freedom we can find through Him. We can support others and share the truths we’ve taken to heart as they process their own trauma. 

God has equipped us as a community of believers to encourage comfort and healing as we wait for the final restoration. Sin, suffering, and trauma will not have the last word.

Resources:

Creation to Restoration Story Visual

Diane Langberg

“Suffering and the Heart of God” by Diane Langberg

The Place We Find Ourselves Episode 150: Trauma Heals By Connecting with Others

Conversational Counseling Season 7: Counseling is Story Work

Season 9 of Conversational Counseling on “Trauma”

To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Known Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! <<⁠

Throughout this season, we’ve examined how God views sin and the sinner. While God is not soft on sin, He is exceedingly gentle and compassionate to the sinner and knows our humanity and our frailty. We finish our discussion of the Gospel Waltz and the Sacred Struggle with the third step of the waltz: Love. We may also refer to this step as “obedience” or “action.” 

When we seek to fight sin, we need to seek a change in our hearts – the root. We do this by targeting the three main actions of the heart. First, we target our cognition (beliefs) by weighing our beliefs with God’s Word. When we meditate on our beliefs, we can recognize where our beliefs about ourselves and our world do not align with our Father’s. For some of us, our relationships or our situations are influencing us to believe we aren’t loved or worthy, leading to destructive and sinful behavior to cope. Yet God understands this weakness, and He encourages the body of Christ to comfort and help the weak. As we understand more of His Word, we can reshape our thoughts and our feelings to align with the promises of God.

Next, when we recognize our affections (desires) are pointed away from God, we can position ourselves to allow the Holy Spirit to change our hearts. We do this by beholding God and recognizing how He offers our hearts a more true, right, and beautiful version of our desires. Though we cannot produce God-honoring desires on our own, we can meditate on our Father and set aside time to know Him better. The more we understand His heart, the more willing we are to come to Him with our sins and our weakness.

Finally, we change our actions by making choices in our hearts that reflect God’s will. Even when our hearts don’t yearn to follow God, we can choose to act in a way that honors Him and honors others. To fight sin, we need to actively plan against it and set up safe guards and accountability within our community. Even when change is slow or we regress, our community reminds us to not grow weary in doing good. 

Resources:

S8 Ep. 3 / The Capture of the Heart

Season 8 of Conversational Counseling on “The Sacred Struggle: Sin, Responsibility and The Journey to Transformation.”

To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Known Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! <<⁠

In the Gospel Waltz, believing is an important step we may overlook when moving from confession to action. When we confess, we must pause to believe and behold as God transforms our hearts.

The devil intends that our sin will destroy us and those around us, but when we can view our failures as a way God draws us back to His heart, we begin to see more of His grace and love and to realize again and again that we can’t save ourselves by our own power. After we confess, we may choose to move to action, but we miss a beautiful step of repentance. Our confessed sin can become a catalyst for worship and for the continued transformation of our hearts as we turn our eyes back to our loving and forgiving Father.

Through our confession and belief, we have the opportunity to fall even more in love with our Savior. He is a God who doesn’t require spiritual rituals for us to earn our salvation nor does He force us to hide in shame from our sin. Though there are often consequences for our sin, God welcomes us back after discipline. As we believe in Him, we can recognize who He is, what He’s done through the person and work of Jesus, and what He will do in our future and in the coming restoration.

Resources:

Character of God Series (Episode 1) - BibleProject

Still Sinning after All These Years - A Biblical Theology of Sinful Failure with Barbara Duguid

Extravagant Grace: God’s Glory Displayed in Our Weakness by Barbara Duguid

Battling Unbelief: Defeating Sin with Superior Pleasure by John Piper

Trusting God by Jerry Bridges

S1 Ep. 5 / Character of God: Sovereignty, Wisdom, Love

Season 8 of Conversational Counseling on “The Sacred Struggle: Sin, Responsibility and The Journey to Transformation.”

To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Known Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! <<⁠

What does repentance mean to you?

When we think of repentance, we may fear the revealing of sin in our hearts. Maybe we’ve tried to conceal a sin from others because of the shame we’d feel if that sin were revealed. Perhaps we fear repentance because we fear discipline from God. But God intended repentance as good news for those who sin! The gospel reveals to us that we are flawed, and if we are honest with ourselves, we can recognize how the corrupted desires of our heart are leading us astray. Yet the hope of the gospel reminds us that we are loved more than we can imagine. 

God has defeated sin once and for all, but the sin in our daily lives can affect our fellowship with Him. God desires a relationship with us, and when we repent, we can turn our hearts back to Him and back to a safe and loving relationship with Him. 

In this episode, we break down repentance as a waltz - a three-step dance with the Holy Spirit. As the Holy Spirit convicts our hearts, we confess, we believe in God’s character and His promises, and we love as we walk in faith with God and others. God continually offers freedom from the burden of sin and invites us back into a right relationship with Him. 

Resources:

S1 Ep. 3 / The “Tions”: Justification, Sanctification, Glorification

S1 Ep.4 / Gospel Waltz: Confess, Believe Love

Gospel Waltz Worksheet: Shall We Dance?

I Repent (Where I Belong) by As Isaac

The Gospel Waltz: Experiencing the Transformational Power of Grace by Bob Flayhart and Holly Mackle

Handout: 7 Traits of True Repentance by Jim Newheiser

Harriet (2019)

Season 8 of Conversational Counseling on “The Sacred Struggle: Sin, Responsibility and The Journey to Transformation.”

To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Known Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne. 

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! <<⁠

Who or what do you worship? God has given us His Word and creation to lead us to worship Him, but often as we behold the creation, we’re tempted to worship the created things more than the Creator. Sometimes we believe we need to kill our desires to avoid misplacing our worship, but these desires come from God. He created us to desire good and to enjoy life. What, then, do we do when our desires are corrupted?

In this episode, we discuss four desires that God gave us for our good: He made us for rest and beauty, He gave us a purpose to glorify and enjoy Him, He gave us agency to make choices, and He made us to belong in community. These beautiful things can richly bless our lives or they can be twisted into idolatry. Some of us use the comforts and enjoyment of life as an escape from the tough reality of our circumstances. Others may idolize achievement or the approval of others. With the ability to choose, we may devolve into control, often leading to fear or anxiety when our perfectly laid plans don’t come to fruition. The things we idolize are a product of one of these desires, a sin under a sin.

Even though these desires can be corrupted, they do not have to be completely eradicated. God has blessed us with these desires for purpose and community, and He wants us to experience and deeply enjoy the richness of His creation. As we think the thoughts of God and do the things of God, our affection for Him grows and our hearts begin to reflect His heart. When our hearts are focused on God, we are protected from the corruption of our desires.

Resources:

The Dynamic Heart in Daily Life: Connecting Christ to Human Experience by Jeremy Pierre

“Behold (Be Held)” by As Isaac

“What is Worship?” with John Piper

“How to Talk About Sin in a Postmodern Age” by Tim Keller

Conversational Counseling Season 7 on Story Work

S4 Ep. 8 / Fear of Man

“I Want, I Want, I Want” by Paul David Tripp

Season 8 of Conversational Counseling on “The Sacred Struggle: Sin, Responsibility and The Journey to Transformation.”

To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Known Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne. 

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! <<⁠

Just as our physical hearts are vital for our lives, our biblical heart is the center for our spiritual life. Our heart is our inner self, the root of our tree. It affects our thinking, our feelings and desires, and our actions. Our heart, just like our world, is infected by sin, and sin often corrupts the good desires God gave us for pleasure and enjoyment. 

If the heart is the root, the influences in our lives are the soil. Our broken earth, body, and relationships put pressure on our hearts. These influences don’t make us sin, but the pressure of these painful influences can wear us down. When we encounter sin in our life or in another’s life, we’re often quick to judge the sin and attempt to eradicate this sin from the heart. But focusing on the sin alone doesn’t lead to healing. The influences in our lives shape us and our responses. A painful or manipulative relationship in the past can affect how we respond to situations in the present, and the continuous physical pain from illness or injury can steal our sleep and our joy. As we inhabit the now and the not yet, the sin of others, the sin in our hearts, and the sin in our earth tempts us to continue a cycle of sin. 

As we’re assailed on many sides and tempted to sin, how can we resist? God gives us the opportunity to behold Him as He transforms our hearts. When we behold Him, we are moving beyond head knowledge. We know God is good, kind, and faithful, but as we behold Him and as we see our Father display His character in our lives, our head knowledge becomes heart knowledge. And yet, beholding God isn’t a simple task. Busyness, burdens of sin and suffering, stressful relationships, legalism, and so much more can draw our hearts away from beholding God. When we strive to behold Him, we are daily choosing to turn our hearts to God, even as the brokenness of our story tempts us to look away. 

Resources:

The Dynamic Heart in Daily Life: Connecting Christ to Human Experience by Jeremy Pierre

“Beholding the Love of God” by Timothy Keller

“Don’t Get Too Familiar with the Bible” by Peter Krol

“Behold (Be Held)” by As Isaac

Season 8 of Conversational Counseling on “The Sacred Struggle: Sin, Responsibility and The Journey to Transformation.”

To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Known Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.