Conversations as you Go

This is part 2 of our two part podcast with Roy Moran. In this episode, Roy shares about the challenges of seeing movement in the West and finishes by sharing what hybrid church* looks like in his North American context. 

To watch part 1 and 2 of this interview, click on the video below:

https://vimeo.com/911028633/fc15fdd38f?share=copy

Why not the West?

Roy’s gives some great insights into how we are wired as westerners:

Individualism

Much of the early DMM training that came to the West was about one-on-one evangelism and discipleship. However it was devoid of community. Teams and groups are vital to both initiate and see movement take off in the harvest.  

We are people of peace

People in the West are typically not connecting cross culturally. Instead we are seeking to reach our own networks. Therefore we are often people of peace ourselves.

Programatic can be problematic

There are nuances with the DMM strategy that we can miss if we are purely programatic with it. In the west, we often want to plug slots by taking a new program (like DMM) and applying it in our context, expecting instant results. 

The religious enemy

We not only face an evil enemy but also a religious enemy. Resistance is always faced from the current tradition. In our case, a Christianised environment.

‘You can cast out demons, but you can’t cast out tradition’ 

Allergic to failure

We don’t persevere well in the West. We presume everything will work in our time and way. 

Failure is something we are deathly allergic to in the West

To learn a new methodology when another is already well in place, it requires a lot of failure. We struggle to fail and learn in the West. We need to overcome our allergy to failure by being truly impacted by the Father’s heart for the Gospel and continue to take risks and fail. 

Outcomes not process

We are guilty of focusing more on DMM outcomes than on the process. There needs to be an underground phase of that nobody can see. It is like digging deep into the ground to lay a foundation for a tall building to be built on.

Hybrid church*

Roy finishes this discussion about his reflections about what he calls hybrid church*. He draws us into what he is doing and shares about the fire in the belly of so many who have a heart to reach their networks. They are starting teams and communities all around them. 

He tell us to:

Get small

There needs to be a cultural shift in our churches. But we need to get small and start changing the culture by working with a few 'rebels' who are already spiritually dissatisfied.

Find people of peace...in our churches

The traditional Sunday morning service can be renamed as a ‘gathering’ instead of a church. These gatherings can actually be seen as more of an access ministry where some people of peace might come when they are searching.

Yet research still shows us that only a small percentage of people from the wider community would ever come to our Sunday gatherings. 

Plant ‘biblically flouring communities’

A hybrid church model is essential to reach the larger percentage of people. The traditional church can be seen as a gasoline (petrol) engine car that is old but still works. Then there is an electric car engine that is a newer way of seeing disciples multiply. These days, as well as his Sunday gatherings, Roy focuses on planting what he is calling ‘biblically flourishing communities’.

Form teams with a target

Focusing on a particular piece of geography or a people group is vital. We can’t keep sending people out alone to make disciples without knowing their target. Teams needs to form that have a shared vision, pray regularly for the people they are focusing on and create ‘circles of accountability’ around these various people groups. 

The Father's joy for ordinary people

Roy’s final word of encouragement is that each of us are vital to the Great Commission. When we take up our place in the Father’s family business, we experience a spiritual life we might have never known before. It might be risky but the Father is offering us the grand benefit of his shared joy. 

*To read more about Hybrid Church, check out Roy’s book, Spent Matches

Please note: this recording was done from back of the hall where the Catalyst camp was held. The audio has been affected as you will hear by the surrounds of heavy rain on one side and people on the other.  

We hear from movement leader Roy Moran, the author of Spent Matches which many of us have read. In this first of two podcasts, Roy shares a little of his journey to becoming part of DMM (Disciple Making Movement). He then gives his insights into what God is doing on the earth today with some key aspects of DMM. These are namely the power of obedience in the nature of the Gospel and the need to understand God’s purpose in using ordinary people. He finishes by making DMM deeply personal.

To watch this interview with Roy, click on the video below:

https://vimeo.com/911028633/fc15fdd38f?share=copy

(In the next podcast, Roy will share more about DMM in the West.)

Roy's story

Roy mentions how he always wanted to grow into a spiritual grandparent but it didn’t happen without key mentors who kept refocusing him towards DMM. Roy’s mentors were practitioners who gave away the Gospel. People like Bernard who said, "The day I enter a community is the day I begin to think how I can leave”.

Missing the power of obedience in the nature of the Gospel

Roy shares how he can purposefully miss quote the Great Commission in Matthew 28:20, saying, ‘...teaching them everything...’ and nobody notices that he has left out ‘to obey’.

Here are some comments Roy makes in regards to obedience rather than knowledge orientated discipleship:

We as the Body of Christ have conformed to this world by being captured by subject matter experts.

Jesus often teaches, ‘If you love me, do what I say’ (e.g. John 14:15). He doesn’t say ‘If you love me, know what I say’. We have allowed this sense of knowledge to overtake the application of truth…We have over swung the pendulum to being allergic to the idea of obedience to Jesus.

The Gospel is about obeying Jesus. But not in a way that we earn anything. We can’t earn his favour. But we can enjoy the benefits of being in the family that comes through obedience. 

God is using ordinary people in movements today

Roy explains how movements across the world is being characterised by ordinary people being used and included by God in his mission:

A great army of ordinary people have matched up to a tactic of ‘gospelling’ that is allowing them to be set free and transformed…They defined the problem correctly; the pain of the Father’s heart that his family isn’t there. [These ordinary people] are experiencing joy as they feel and relieve that pain. 

Roy describes how when we have families, they produced children that have families that have children:

Jesus has a dream of every one of his followers having spiritual grandchildren. But in most of our churches [in the West], there is only a tiny percentage of people who see this dream as normal in their spiritual journey.

Transformed by God

Roy personalises DMM to our inner worlds with this question: 

How does Jesus make a difference in my life? 

He suggests we are spending too long helping people being able to share their faith and not their story of how God is transforming them.

Finally, Roy closes this episode by calling us to allow the Father’s heart to break ours:

Yet we are not experiencing any of the pain on our Father’s heart. We have to sit with this until it breaks us.

This is our third Nairobi Gathering podcast. In this episode, we will hear a case study from Rwanda. Justin shares about a God movement that has been birthed in his nation. 

The start of Justin’s journey

Since coming to Christ, Justin always carried a call to go from house to house and share the Gospel. Justin became the bishop of his church. He held a big vision for the Gospel to spread across his nation. But it wasn’t happening. So he started to ask the question, "What is wrong?". 

Justin tells us some of the humorous anecdotes of his anointing as a leader. But then he took a great risk as he stood aside and resigned to learn about disciple making. Justin describes how he read a book asking him the question, ‘Are you a minister who make disciples?’. He started to ask himself questions like, "Are all of my people in the church disciples of Jesus or just members of my church?". These question deeply rocked Justin and started him on the journey. 

Learning about DMM

After resigning, Justin started a house church. However it soon became a traditional church in his house. He says it was "like bringing in an elephant into the house - it destroyed everything!"

Learning about DMM - Intentional Prayer

Since 2010, Dr Aila Tasse has been instrumental in Justin capturing the concepts of DMM (Disciple Making Movement). Justin responded by starting to implement one of the DMM principles he had learnt, intentional prayer.

After six months of praying, he came back with a New Testament concept of early church (how Jesus made disciples who multiplied). He also started with a weekly all night prayer meeting. In the process, he started to loose people that were once around him. He describes the great 'undoing' that God led him through so that he could start building as a disciple maker. 

Finding the Person of Peace

Movement is about finding the Person of Peace. Movement for Justin began in 2011 when he encountered a drunkard called John Paul and another man called Augustine. These men, along with their wives, became the first core members of the movement. After seeing them baptised through DBS (Discovery Bible Study) in their home, Justin trained them to find other People of Peace. To disciple and baptise others themselves through DBS. Ordinary people like storekeepers started to baptise others, even educated engineers!

Later that year, they saw 18 churches birthed. He brought the leaders together and gathered around a map of Rwanda. It was then that they started to vision cast and move out from the cities to go back into their villages. After five years, they found themselves working in 22 districts. However problems continued…

Problems encountered

Sending people out one by one resulted in many challenges for Justin and the team. They learnt to shift to sending people out two by two as Jesus commanded in Luke 10. They now develop teams with a vision for a region. 

Positions and titles became important to people as some in the movement went back to more traditional models of church. Foreigners also started to bring money into the movement. Justin describes how they needed to embrace a self supporting movement. This was done through developing small businesses and various access ministries that met the needs of people in the community. 

Focus on households

Returning to the Person of Peace principle, Justin highlights how they focused on households. Every household has another household. All of the people in these households need to come to Christ, not just individuals. All through finding the Person of Peace. Justin says, "If you start lonely, you finish lonely", highlighting the importance of DBS involving group participation. 

Movements birth movements

Justin shares how they have seen movements birth other movements. We listen to stories of how this has occurred amongst Muslims and the Pygmy people where they now have 165 churches down to 6 generations with nearly 500 people baptised. The movement has multiplied and spread into other people groups and nations. Since 2011 (in the last 12 years), they are now up to 1,300 churches and about 14,000 people have been baptised down to 26 generations of disciples. 

Lessons learnt

Justin finishes by sharing some of the lessons he has learnt as he has embraced DMM: 

Focus on biblical obedience 

A commitment to reach the lost 

Depending on the Lord, not your tools

Raising up and catalysing disciple makers

Always be ready to learn - “The day you stop learning, is the day you die”

Model everyday 

Raise up leaders up to sustain the vision

Focus on a common DNA

This is the second podcast from the Nairobi gathering. We go wider still as we hear Stan share what God is doing around the whole world. 

We have created a video that goes with this podcast here:

https://vimeo.com/841504361/b9f6b25981?share=copy

This gives a visual of all the figures you’ll be hearing. 

Be deeply encouraged as God calls you afresh to buy into his big picture of what he is doing on the earth. To be part of the generation that will rise up that will run the final lap of the Great Commission race.

Over the next few weeks, we are going to listen to some talks that have come straight out of the DMM (Disciple Making Movement) Global Catalyst Camp* in Nairobi, Kenya. 

Today we will listen to the introduction to the whole gathering by Dr Aila Tasse. Aila reflects about his previous struggle to believe that God would move amongst the 14 Unreached People Groups (UPGs) in his own context of Northern Kenya. He shares how he once thought, “It cannot happen here”. How faith was produced in his life. 

These days, we're seeing not only movements happening amongst these 14 UPGs in Northern Kenya. But also across Eastern Africa. The very place the Catalyst Camp you'll be listening to has been gathering. 

Be encouraged as you listen to Aila and others share over the coming weeks. Let faith be birthed in your heart afresh!

*This gathering of leaders from around the world have met together under the leadership of Aila Tasse. We are hearing of so many stories of movements that are happening in the hardest of places. Some are happening in UPGs that have long been fortresses to the Gospel. In some of these “impossible” places, today over 15,000 churches based around DMM are flourishing. 

It truly has been an inspirational time. As we start to examine and unpack the ideas that have been presented, we are learning…

It’s really quite simple. 

It’s really about obeying Jesus and what he started. The example he set to make disciples and the commands he gave live as disciples. 

The wrestle of faith as we start to ask the question, “can movements actually happen in our context?”. As someone once said, “the hardest place to start a movement is right where you are”. We’re discovering that when we ask this question, faith is produced.

This week we are in for a treat as we hear from Keith in New Zealand share his story of being called into planting seeds across Asia with the vision to seeing movements. Excitingly, movement is now happening!

The call

We hear how God called Keith and his wife Joy to Thailand after living their whole life in New Zealand until their 50s. Keith poured himself into training people across Thailand and many parts of Asia.

These days, Keith shares how we are now seeing movement spark in Thailand amongst some of those he once trained and continues to disciple in DMM (disciple making movement). Over the past few months, mass baptisms have been seen amongst Burmese refugees near the border of Thailand and Myanmar. This is one example of a seed Keith and his wife Joy once sowed now bearing an abundance of fruit. 

So we learn from Keith how it is all about God’s call. We can trust in this call, knowing it might not work out the way we plan but God will do it his way since it was always his call. 

Keith also shares about his passion for everyday, ordinary people being part of God’s kingdom. He tells us a powerful story of one humble Asian woman who never thought she’d be part of God’s work hearing about the Great Commission in Matthew 28. It was the Word of God that made her realise she was called to make disciples in the same authority that Jesus was given. Time and time again Keith has been able to bear witness to ordinary people in Asia bearing fruit like this in unexpected ways. One of the keys he learnt as he trained people was helping people discover movement principles by pointing them to Scripture. 

What about New Zealand?

But what about New Zealand? What about the Western world? Keith shares that since returning home to New Zealand, he realises that he and his wife are now locals who are called to reach their fellow local New Zealanders. He says how he is now living out the movement training he has been teaching for years. The best people to reach the local people, he says, are the local people. “Now that’s us”, Keith says.

Even though he doesn’t see himself as a gifted evangelist, Keith’s learnt to have very natural spiritual conversation with people he and his wife meet in the market near their home. They’ve learnt to share Scripture and engage people in discovery style conversations. 

So the challenge in the West, according to Keith isn’t about the harvest. He reminds us that God says the harvest is plentiful in the West (Luke 10:2). Instead, our challenge as the Western church is to get out and engage in the harvest. 

Keith ends the podcast leaving us with a word of encouragement and a prayer of how he sees that we are clearly in time of unprecedented harvest in the world today:

“God just wants us to be obedient. Then He will use us in this harvest. God can use anybody”, says Keith. “Those who have a heart to obey. God is so well pleased to use anybody. He will put faith in the hearts of the people to do his work.”

Today Dave is sharing a great sermon he heard recently from Dave Ferguson who was speaking at Crossway Baptist Church. You can access the sermon here (or just listen to this podcast!).

Dave (Ferguson), who has helped plant over 9000 churches last year, talks about the ideas of apprenticing, hero making and kingdom building.

Jesus is asking us, “will you follow me and change the world?” (Matthew 4:19; Matthew 28:19; Acts 1:8). But what are the missing practices in our disciple making efforts?  

Dave highlights these three areas of missing practice in disciple making that he sees as he travels the western world: 

1. Apprenticing

Dave refers to author Dallas Willard’s term ‘apprentice’ instead of disciple. Dallas uses this term since in the West, discipleship has now come to mean simply gaining more knowledge. But apprenticing is understood to be something that involves both our head and hands. John’s gospel describes Jesus as someone who spent time with his disciples (John 3:22). The greek word for this is ‘diatribo’, or as Dave puts it, ‘rubbing off’ on others. Jesus rubbed off on and catalysed a movement from just a small group of disciples. So who do we spend time our time with? Dave challenges us to name the people we are apprenticing. 

2. Hero making

Dave tells us that another key (and missing) element of disciple making is to do everything we can to make others the heros. We need to make a  shift from seeking success to seeking significance. Just like Jesus, we are to desire and see that “My fruit grows on other people’s trees” (John 14:12). Jesus knew that his disciples would take the gospel to more places and people that he ever did. So how are we going in becoming a hero maker? 

3. Kingdom building

A lot of the church Dave says, is more interested in building their castle than God’s kingdom. Referring to Habitat For Humanity’s visionary, Millard Fuller, Dave shares how Millard’s vision was to get ‘every follower of Jesus to swing a hammer’. It was about making others the heros. The only thing that mattered for Millard in the end was kingdom building. 

Dave finishes by praying for us. He asks God to reveal to each of us who are listening the names and faces of the people who we can disciple to find and follow Jesus. He prays that we would take a posture of generosity and genuine curiousity in these people. That we would release them to be who God has called them to be. He asks that we would be released from taking any credit or pride. That our sole focus would be to just see God’s kingdom advanced.

We have launched our Praxeis online training! Vicki joins the podcast to share how the training has been developed and shares its purpose. 

We hear how the training is for everyone, everywhere. In fact, that's the very reason behind it. As the network grows around us, we see the need to equip people all across the world who might not be able to meet face to face. Vicki shares how this online training can be accessed by anyone in whatever space and be done at whatever pace they need. 

The content

Vicki takes us through the DMM Core Course, a collection of all that we have learn as Praxeis over the last decade. From places like India and Africa to people like David Watson, we’ve taken all our learnings and want to give it away as a gift. 

We hear from Vicki how we don’t feel like this training is the ‘silver bullet’. It is simply about pointing people to Jesus and the Word. Allowing God to lead and shape us as disciples and disciple makers. It’s for those who have a heart for the lost but feel confused or even scared at the thought of being a ‘disciple maker’.

The first half of the training as Vicki says, is all about God’s vision. His heart for the lost. Being caught up in Jesus’ mission and discovering afresh what it means to be a disciple that multiplies. 

Throughout the course, we're invited to discover and obey God through his Word. We listen to the Spirit through prayer. And we are equipped to practically engage with the harvest like Jesus. 

Practical tools included

Vicki shares in depth about how the ‘4 Column Bible Study’ is super simple tool to help people hear God’s voice themselves and apply it. She shows how this tool and the training as a whole couples both knowledge and obedience to God's Word. 

Equipping people to pray is essential as a disciple and to see movement. Vicki highlights prayer walking and mind-mapping as practical ways the trainings helps us pray personally and with others. She emphasises how each part of the course is about creating new rhythms that includes developing a rhythm of prayer into our lives. 

The Discovery Bible Study, Vicki says, is a great method to help the people around us discovery Jesus. She tells us how the course will encourage people to start a Discovery Group and also reflect on how it went. 

Who can do this course?

Anyone! You can do it alone or as a group. The key to it is being coached along the way. Praxeis will set you up with a coach to help you reflect on the content and encourage you to step it out. A coach is simply someone who is a few steps along in the journey of making disciple who can empower you. Beyond the course, the coach also continues to help you make what you have learnt become part of your life. 

How do I do the course?

Visit learn.praxeis.org and that’s it! Oh apart from having an internet connection and a notebook and a pen (for those 4 column bible studies that Vicki mentioned). At the end of the course you will be able to download your own course workbook that will include your “I will…” statements (obedience steps) and the resources you learnt along the way.

How much is the course?

It's completely free

Will there be more Praxeis training online?

Yes, we are developing a follow up training for those who have started Discovery Groups.

Finally, Vicki encourages us as ordinary believers to have a go at making disciples. She believes that something will shift when we all give it a crack. "We might feel ordinary", she says, "but with God with you, you’ll become extraordinary”.

This is our second episode talking with Steve Addison about his new book, 'Acts and the Movement of God'. You are in for a treat as Steve takes us on a journey through the book of Acts. 

Themes and structure of Acts

Steve explains how the God movement started in Jerusalem but how the living God was always going to expand out as Jesus said it would. Right at the beginning of Acts, we see the core elements of a God movement:

the living presence of God through the Holy Spirit to bear witness to Jesus

the living Word of God being proclaimed by all of God's people

the core missionary task of seeing communities of disciples gather everywhere

In fact, the way Luke describes how the early church first gathered in Jerusalem (Acts 2) was what Steve calls the ‘gold standard’. Disciples in community like this keep popping up for the rest of Acts.

Steve also gives us insight into who is leading the Church. He refers to major leaders like Peter. Someone who we think should have it all together. But God shakes him and turns him upside down and drags him to Cornelius' (a Gentiles) house. So who leads the Church? The living God who is hands on. He is the one who is fulfilling his vision.

So Luke wants us to see how the mission of God keeps advancing despite human weakness. For example, Paul and Barnabas have a big fight but the living Word keeps going out in the power of the Spirit. And churches, as Luke calls them, keep on forming.

But what do we do with the final chapters of Acts?

In Acts 21-28, Paul is facing hardships and imprisonment. We see how Luke wants us to not just have a history lesson of the early church but to see how God is working in the world. Especially in the weaknesses and limitations of the messengers. We are confronted with Paul’s weakness in these chapters. Luke is wanting us to focus on the limitations of Paul, the messenger, but to also focus on the glory of God. God was disrupting Paul’s world showing him how He was still at work despite Paul's weaknesses. This ought to encourage us as disciple makers as we face many troubles and obstacles along the way. 

“What if Luke is not just saying, “This is how it was”? What if he’s saying, “This is how it can be”?” 

Apart from going out and buying Steve’s book, Steve points us to his website where there is a great Discovery Worksheet on Acts. He encourages us to go through Acts bit by bit with others and ask some discovery questions. This will help us apply what God is teaching us as we read Acts.

Steve leaves us with a word of encouragement. To keep praying for the needs of others. Engaging people in spiritual conversations. And discerning if they are ready for the next steps of discipleship.  

“Take God’s Word in the book of Acts and let it instruct and strengthen your resolve. To do what Jesus commanded. The Spirit comes upon you with power so that we would be disciple makers to the ends of the earth. Every place and every people group.”

We have a treat these next two podcasts. Movements author and teacher, Steve Addison is sharing with us about the Book of Acts from his latest book. You can purchase ‘Acts and the movement of God’ here. 

In this episode, Steve shares how he has learnt that the Book of Acts isn’t just about the Apostles or the Spirit. It is the acts of God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 

The Word

Steve teaches us about the importance of the Word of God in movement. In Acts, we see how the spread, multiplication and growth of the Word was central. 

But what is the Word? We learn how the Word of God, through the Holy Spirit, does the work in movement. Jesus is the Word (see John 1). But Jesus shows us in the Gospels that the Scriptures (the written Word) is also God’s Word. Acts highlights how many, including Luke (the author of Acts), are learning Jesus’ message and pass it on. Except for one time in Acts (Acts 20:35), the Word was for unbelievers not the church. Therefore the Word is living. It spreads virally as people learn the stories of Jesus and pass them on. 

Finally, the Word also has authority. How we view and obey God’s Word will result in the rise and fall of movements, even today. 

The Spirit

Steve describes how the Spirit was for absolutely everybody in Acts. It’s purpose was not just to change us into Christ’s likeness and assure our salvation. For Luke, it was all about Jesus’ mission. The Spirit’s purpose was to empower everyone to be witnesses to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8). We are all called to be Jesus’ messengers to every people group on earth. Not just the Apostles in Acts. In fact, Steve tells us how we don’t even know the names of many ordinary messengers in Acts. However they were the ones who spread the Word to new places like Antioch and Rome. 

We all get to play. We are all given God’s Spirit. Making disciples is not just for the qualified. In fact, Steve points out how the qualified are either bi-paced or unravelled in Acts. The highly qualified Paul is a great example of someone who faced many hardships. 

Hardship and Persecution

Steve reminds us that Jesus promises to be with us as we join him on mission (Matthew 28:20). It was Jesus who brought Steven, Paul, Silas and others through persecution and hardship in Acts. It wasn’t their own resolve that got them through, it was Jesus. Stephen endured his stoning because he saw Jesus (Acts 7:55-56). Jesus was with Paul and Silas in jail as they worshipped (Acts 16). We follow the crucified Messiah. And we share in both his death and resurrection. Reflecting on Paul’s shipwreck, Steve speaks about how Paul was able to say “I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong” (2 Corinthians 12:10). It is through our weaknesses that God is able to reveal his glory. 

In movement, we often find ourselves not being in control. Steve shares a story of ordinary believers he knows who are sharing God’s Word today in Ukraine. Because of the suffering of war around them, they are ministering the Word amongst an increasing number of hungry Ukrainians. God is being glorified as they help people discover Jesus. 

Steve shares this word of encouragement to finish this episode: 

“When God is ready, he can drop you into a fruitful situation. Even if it feels like things are slow going…be ready to do what Jesus has given you to do. And trust the results to Him. Because he is sovereign and Lord over history. We don’t know how the next years are going to unfold. I think we are heading for some troubling and turbulent times. So let’s be ready. Let’s be about the Master’s work as we wait for him to return.”