What happens when a successful lawyer decides to step away from a demanding career without having the next job lined up?

My guest on this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Ginny Johnson, did just that.

After more than two decades in the legal profession, including senior positions at major law firms and leadership roles at several corporations, Ginny decided to take a sabbatical. She used the time to travel, focus on her health, think about what she wanted next, and embark on what became a turbocharged networking and listening tour.

Ginny spoke with hundreds of lawyers, business leaders, investors, and other professionals. What began as an exploration of her own next chapter ultimately became the foundation for a paper examining artificial intelligence, the changing legal market, and the future of legal careers.

Those conversations also changed Ginny's thinking about her own career. Rather than simply moving into another traditional general counsel role, she recently joined Outside GC as a partner, providing fractional and interim legal leadership and strategic advice to businesses.

In our conversation, we talk about Ginny's career journey from BigLaw litigation to in-house leadership, why she decided to take a sabbatical after 23 years of working continuously, and what she gained by giving herself permission to step away.

We also discuss the extraordinary role networking has played throughout her career, the expanding responsibilities of general counsel, how AI may reshape legal careers and the traditional law firm apprenticeship model, and why experienced lawyers may have new opportunities to build more flexible, portfolio-style careers.

Most importantly, Ginny's experience offers a useful lesson for lawyers who are feeling stuck or uncertain about what comes next. Sometimes creating space, talking to people, gathering information, and remaining open to possibilities can lead you somewhere you hadn't originally planned to go.

Key Takeaways

• Careers don't have to be linear. A career move doesn't always have to mean a bigger title or more compensation. Sometimes a lateral move, a step back, or even a break can create opportunities for growth.
• Relationships create career opportunities. Except for her first law firm job, every major career move Ginny has made resulted from someone in her network connecting her with an opportunity.
• Going in-house requires a different mindset. Ginny discusses learning to communicate more succinctly, understand the business deeply, and give executives an actual recommendation rather than simply explaining all the possible legal outcomes.
• A sabbatical can create valuable perspective. After 23 years of working continuously, Ginny stepped away without another job lined up. She used the time to travel, focus on her health, reflect on what she wanted, and explore different possibilities for her next chapter.
• Networking can be a form of research. Ginny's listening tour grew to more than 500 conversations. Those conversations expanded her network, helped her understand how the legal market is changing, and ultimately became the foundation for her research paper.
• AI is changing legal work and creating new career possibilities. Ginny sees opportunities for experienced lawyers to provide fractional, interim, and strategic advice without working as a full-time general counsel or within a traditional law firm structure. At the same time, AI raises important questions about how junior lawyers will develop the experience and judgment they need.
• Judgment, relationships, and context remain critical. AI can produce work much faster, but experienced lawyers are still needed to determine whether the output is accurate, understand what it may have missed, and apply strategic judgment to a client's particular circumstances.

In This Episode

01:36 – Ginny's journey from BigLaw litigator to general counsel and chief legal officer

05:59 – How networking helped Ginny make the move in-house

10:28 – What lawyers need to learn when moving from private practice to business

16:30 – Taking a sabbatical after 23 years without another job lined up

24:24 – Health span, career longevity, and not waiting too long to enjoy life

28:56 – Turning a networking tour into more than 500 conversations and a research paper

33:03 – AI, the expanding GC role, and the emerging advisory economy

41:02 – What remains uniquely valuable about lawyers in the age of AI

One of the questions I hear most frequently from lawyers who are unhappy practicing law is: What else can I do with a law degree?

Making that transition can be difficult, particularly when you've spent years building expertise and credibility as a lawyer and suddenly find yourself trying to convince employers that your skills translate to something very different.

My guest on this episode of Counsel to Counsel is Shireen Hilal, CEO of Maior, a consulting firm that helps law firms and other professional services firms improve their strategy, operations, growth, and profitability.

Shireen began her career as a BigLaw litigator and practiced for about a decade before moving to the business side of professional services. She went on to hold senior roles at BDO and KPMG, served as COO of a national law firm, led growth for a communications consulting firm, and ultimately launched her own consulting business.

What makes Shireen's story particularly useful for lawyers contemplating a career change is that she did not have an MBA or a traditional background in business, strategy, or operations. She had to figure out how to translate her legal experience into something employers could understand and value. She also had to deal with a lot of rejection along the way.

In our conversation, we discuss how she figured out what interested her, how she broke into her first nonlegal role, the value of persistence and preparation, and which skills from practicing law proved most transferable.

We also talk about the importance of curiosity, networking, taking initiative, and being willing to do more than simply submit a résumé. For lawyers who know they want something different but aren't sure what comes next, Shireen's career is a good reminder that leaving legal practice does not mean throwing away your legal training.

Key Takeaways

• Your first move out of legal practice may be the hardest one. Shireen sent out many résumés and experienced a lot of rejection before BDO was willing to take a chance on her. She also took a pay cut to make the transition.
• Applying for jobs may not be enough. Shireen tried to identify the decision-maker and contact that person directly, explaining why she was interested and what she thought she could contribute despite lacking the traditional experience.
• Networking and persistence can help bridge the experience gap. Shireen succeeded largely through cold outreach, but we also discuss why relationships can make a career transition easier and why being able to hear "no" and keep going matters.
• Taking initiative can change the trajectory of your career. As a first-year associate doing document review, Shireen identified important documents, organized them, and brought them directly to the senior partner. That initiative quickly led to greater responsibility.
• Legal skills can be highly transferable. Attention to detail, problem-solving, preparation, curiosity, understanding facts, and figuring out what actually needs to get done have all been valuable throughout Shireen's business career.
• Explore before deciding what comes next. If you know you want to leave practice but don't know what you want to do instead, talk to people about their work. Learn what they actually do every day. Curiosity can help you identify possibilities you might not otherwise have considered.
• Leaving practice doesn't mean throwing away your legal training. Shireen believes her experience practicing law and running a law firm remains an important part of the value and credibility she brings to her consulting clients.
• Preparation can compensate for a lack of experience. Before interviewing for a chief of staff role at a major airline, Shireen studied the company and its competitors extensively. Her advice to lawyers is to use what they already know how to do well: dig into the facts, develop conclusions, and demonstrate how they would approach the job.

Timestamps

• 00:05 – What else can you do with a law degree?
• 02:09 – Shireen's path from BigLaw litigation to the business side
• 10:13 – Realizing traditional legal practice wasn't the right fit
• 13:19 – Breaking into business without an MBA or traditional business background
• 16:19 – Networking, cold outreach, rejection, and persistence
• 21:00 – The legal skills that transfer to business roles
• 34:05 – What to do when you want to leave law but don't know what comes next
• 38:40 – Why leaving practice doesn't mean throwing away your legal training

Why are lawyers so good at spotting problems and sometimes so bad at letting them go?

For more than two decades, I've followed the research of Dr. Larry Richard, widely recognized as the leading expert on the psychology of lawyer behavior. His work has had a profound impact on my own career and provides a foundation for much of the coaching work I do with lawyers. His research has helped me understand not only my clients, but also my own tenancies and why so many of us who went to law school think and react the way we do.

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Larry joins me to discuss his new book, Thin-Skinned: Why Lawyers Are So Low in Resilience, and the New Science That Can Help, that he co-authored with his wife Dr. D'Arcy Lyness (published by the American Bar Association.)

Larry's research shows that lawyers differ significantly from the general population on a number of personality traits. Most strikingly, 90% of lawyers score below the 50th percentile for psychological resilience compared to the general public. The same skepticism and problem-spotting abilities that help us practice law effectively can make us more prone to negative thinking, defensiveness, and difficulty dealing with uncertainty, criticism, and change.

The encouraging news is that resilience is highly learnable. Larry explains the practical ways that lawyers can strengthen their resilience by reducing negative thinking, increasing positive emotions, developing stronger social connections, and taking better care of themselves. We also discuss how these ideas apply to career development, business development, leadership, feedback, and the everyday challenges lawyers face.

I've practiced and recommended many of these techniques for years including mindfulness, gratitude, exercise, cultivating relationships, and challenging negative thinking. Thin-Skinned gave me a much deeper understanding of why they work and offers many new ideas that I can use both personally and with my coaching clients.

Key Takeaways

• Lawyers really are psychologically different. Larry's decades of research identify seven traits on which lawyers tend to be outliers: skepticism, autonomy, abstract reasoning, urgency, sociability, cognitive empathy, and resilience.
• The traits that make us effective lawyers can work against us elsewhere. Skepticism and looking for what could go wrong are enormously valuable when practicing law, but carrying that mindset into our personal and professional relationships can undermine resilience.
• Being "thin-skinned" doesn't mean being weak. A lawyer may confidently handle an aggressive opposing counsel yet become defensive when a colleague questions their behavior. Ambiguous interpersonal situations are often where low resilience shows up.
• Resilience can be learned. Unlike many personality traits, resilience is heavily influenced by learning and experience, which means there are concrete things we can do to improve it.
• Thoughts, feelings, and actions reinforce one another. Changing any one of the three can influence the others. For lawyers who struggle with rejection in business development or career advancement, simply taking action repeatedly can reduce the sense of threat over time.
• Positive emotions aren't just "feel-good" exercises. Music, gratitude, nature, exercise, and other positive experiences have measurable effects that can help counteract the physiological impact of stress and negative emotions.
• Relationships are a powerful source of resilience. Strong, authentic social connections help us absorb stress and cope with change. That is particularly important for lawyers, who tend to score lower on sociability.
• Law firm leaders need to understand lawyer resilience. Leaders who default to fixing deficiencies and react defensively to suggestions can undermine trust. Strengths-based leadership and an understanding of how low-resilience lawyers respond to feedback can produce better results.

Timestamps

00:04 – Why Dr. Larry Richard's work has influenced my career and coaching

05:44 – The seven personality traits that make lawyers different

09:44 – Why 90% of lawyers are "thin-skinned"

16:36 – The good news: resilience can be learned

21:01 – The science and importance of positive emotions

28:03 – Taking action despite fear, uncertainty, and rejection

37:20 – Where to start if building resilience feels overwhelming

44:40 – What law firm leaders can do to build more resilient workplaces

About Dr. Larry Richard

Dr. Larry Richard began his career as a lawyer before earning a Ph.D. in psychology and devoting his career to studying lawyers and lawyer behavior. His research has helped law firms and lawyers better understand leadership, management, well-being, personality, and change.

His new book, Thin-Skinned: Why Lawyers Are So Low in Resilience, and the New Science That Can Help, co-authored with Dr. D'Arcy Lyness, is available from the American Bar Association. Larry describes it not simply as an explanation of why lawyers struggle with resilience, but as a practical collection of evidence-based strategies for doing something about it.

Learn more about Dr. Richard, his work, and the book at https://www.lawyerbrain.com/.

In this episode, Stephen Seckler speaks with Michele Correnti about branding, websites, LinkedIn, content marketing, and how AI is changing the way law firms market themselves. They discuss what lawyers should do before and after launching a solo or small firm to build visibility, attract the right clients, and stay top of mind with referral sources.

Michele Correnti, founder and CEO of Correnti Marketing, shares practical advice drawn from years of working with law firms and other professional service businesses.

If you're thinking about launching a practice or rethinking your firm's online presence, this conversation is packed with tactical guidance.

Key Takeaways

• Branding is more than a logo.
• Start marketing before launch day.
• Specificity attracts better clients.
• Niches can expand opportunity.
• Personal branding matters.
• LinkedIn should be used strategically.
• Websites should reflect the real audience.
• AI is a tool, not a replacement.

Timestamps

00:00 - Why legal marketing matters after launching a firm 00:48 - Why potential clients won't find you automatically 01:16 - Michele Correnti's background in professional services marketing 03:43 - Photography, headshots, and visual branding 05:15 - What to do six months before leaving a firm 07:50 - Why your brand is really your reputation 09:16 - Using an ideal client to sharpen your message 16:04 - Personal LinkedIn profiles versus company pages 19:15 - How AI is changing SEO and search visibility 23:00 - Common online presence mistakes lawyers make 27:09 - Launching a firm as a coordinated campaign 32:58 - Where AI helps and where the human voice still matters 37:17 - The risks and opportunities of AI-generated images 40:47 - Three marketing priorities for the first 90 days

Starting your own law firm can be one of the most exciting and rewarding career moves a lawyer can make. But amid the excitement of choosing a name, finding clients, and building a practice, it's easy to overlook ethical and operational issues that can create problems down the road.

In this episode, Steve Seckler speaks with Mike Rossi, a partner at the law firm Conn Kavanaugh in Boston. Mike focuses on professional liability, business litigation, and advising lawyers and law firms on professional responsibility and risk management.

Together, they walk through the ethical and practical issues lawyers should think about when starting a new practice, especially the decisions that need to be made before a firm opens its doors.

The conversation begins with the obligations lawyers have when leaving a firm, including how to notify clients appropriately and why client choice matters. Mike explains the importance of handling departures harmoniously, avoiding premature client outreach, and understanding the fiduciary duties involved in a transition.

The episode explores marketing and business development and operational issues. Mike and Steve also discuss supervision responsibilities, the ethical use of AI tools, co-counsel arrangements, referral disclosures, and the risks that can arise when lawyers take on unfamiliar matters too quickly.

This episode is a reminder that a little prevention early on can save a lot of trouble later.

Key Takeaways

• Leaving a firm starts with your obligations to the firm and your clients, not your new business plan.
• Clients ultimately choose where their matters go, and a joint communication is the safest way to notify them.
• Legal tech competence is part of modern professional competence, so your systems should be ready on day one.
• IOLTA and trust accounting are high-risk areas for new solos and deserve careful setup before taking client funds.
• Marketing must avoid false or misleading claims, especially around results, specialization, and expertise.
• AI, supervision, and conflict checks all require active oversight; "set it and forget it" creates risk.

Key Topics

• Ethical obligations when leaving a law firm and managing client relationships
• How to navigate conflicts of interest, client notifications, and joint communications
• Essential technology and systems for risk management, including trust accounts and practice management tools
• Marketing and advertising rules: do's and don'ts for building your brand online
• The role of AI and emerging technologies in legal practice and supervision responsibilities
• Best practices for growth: supervision, hiring, and managing non-lawyer participation
• Preparing for launch: conflict checks, IOLTA setup, and ethical pitfalls to avoid

Timestamps

00:40 - Responsibilities of law firm owners beyond client acquisition

01:37 - Ethical challenges: client intake, conflicts, and engagement letters

05:24 - ABA guidance on leaving a firm and client transition rules

06:16 - Client autonomy in choosing where matters go

12:08 - Ethical duty of technological competence and practice management tools

13:48 - Trust accounting: setting up compliant IOLTA accounts

16:13 - Advertising and online marketing rules

28:44 - Using AI tools responsibly and supervising outputs

Many lawyers assume their career options begin and end with practicing law. In this episode, Steve speaks with Tony Waller, a lawyer, educator, former nonprofit CEO, and career development leader whose career demonstrates the many ways a legal education can lead to meaningful and rewarding work.

Tony discusses his journey from private practice to recruiting, law school career services, nonprofit leadership, and higher education administration. Along the way, he shares practical advice for lawyers and law students who are considering career transitions, searching for more meaningful work, or wondering how to leverage their legal skills outside of traditional practice.

Whether you're happy practicing law or considering a different path, this conversation will broaden your perspective on what a successful legal career can look like.

Key Takeaways

• Your legal skills are highly transferable and can create opportunities well beyond traditional legal practice.
• Career transitions are most successful when they're intentional rather than reactions to temporary dissatisfaction.
• Lawyers need to become comfortable identifying and communicating the value they bring to employers and clients.
• Law schools offer rewarding career paths in career development, student affairs, advancement, and administration.
• Volunteer leadership and nonprofit board service can expand your network while developing valuable leadership skills.
• Strong professional relationships often lead to career opportunities before positions are ever publicly posted.
• Before making a career change, identify exactly what is making you unhappy so you don't repeat the same mistakes.
• Career success isn't a race—focus on continuous growth rather than comparing your timeline to others.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction and Tony Waller's unconventional legal career

04:05 Why Tony left legal practice and the transferable skills lawyers possess

12:05 Career opportunities for lawyers in law school administration

15:20 Transitioning into nonprofit leadership and serving as a CEO

20:30 Networking, relationship building, and the hidden job market

22:45 How legal career development has changed over the past two decades

25:00 Advice for lawyers considering a career transition

29:45 Final career advice and Tony's recommendation for the TV series Shrinking

Connect with Tony Waller

Tony Waller University of Georgia School of Law Email: [email protected]

Connect with Steve Seckler

To schedule a free 30-minute consultation or access free career, leadership, and business development resources for lawyers, visit www.seckler.com.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a colleague who may be exploring new career possibilities.

In this episode, Steve sits down with Matt Miller to discuss Matt's unconventional journey from practicing lawyer to what he describes as an "accidental tourist" in legal recruiting. They explore why he doesn't subscribe to the familiar "recovering lawyer" narrative, what he has learned from observing thousands of legal careers, the surprising value of a legal education, and how our priorities, definitions of success, and career choices often evolve over time.

Matt is a lawyer, entrepreneur, recruiter, and legal industry innovator whose career has taken him through Big Law, boutique practice, law firm partnership, and an in-house role as General Counsel. Along the way, he founded a legal recruiting firm and more recently launched an AI-powered job search platform designed to help lawyers navigate their careers more effectively.

Whether you're considering going in-house, transitioning out of practice, or exploring entrepreneurship, Matt's insights challenge traditional narratives and offer practical guidance.

Key takeaways

• A legal career can evolve in many directions, and those pivots can create unexpected opportunities.
• Going in-house can be appealing, but timing and fit matter more than many lawyers realize.
• Relationships and networking often shape careers more than formal plans do.
• It helps to think long term about career decisions instead of reacting only to the next move.
• Vulnerability, coaching, and honest conversations can create real clarity.
• Lawyers have more flexibility than they think, especially when they stay open to new paths.

Timestamps

00:00 - Welcome and episode overview 01:07 - Matt's background and journey into law and entrepreneurship 03:44 - Early career choices and the move through private practice 07:00 - What lawyers should consider before transitioning in-house 14:10 - Intentionality versus opportunity-driven career moves 18:10 - Why relationships matter throughout a legal career

Links

• Jolo.ai – AI-powered legal job platform
• Ascent Counsel

In this episode, Steve Seckler speaks with Dr. Sarah Alsaidi, a psychologist, executive coach, and creator of the Brain in Mind Method, a coaching framework that integrates neuroscience and psychology to help high-performing professionals better understand how their brains work and perform at their best.

Dr. Alsaidi explores the critical role of executive functioning in high-performing legal professionals. She demystifies how these mental skills influence productivity, resilience, and well-being, offering practical insights for lawyers and their organizations.

This episode offers a blend of neuroscience, practical coaching strategies, and insights into the unique challenges faced by legal professionals, making it a valuable listen for anyone looking to enhance their cognitive skills and resilience in high-stakes careers.

Key Takeaways:

• Executive functioning is like the brain's CEO, involving skills such as planning, organization, and emotional regulation.
• Microaggressions and cultural factors can significantly impact cognitive functions and focus.
• Distinguishing between perfectionism and healthy ambition is crucial for sustainable performance.
• Metacognition, or thinking about your thinking, is essential for identifying effective tools and strategies.
• Emotional regulation is vital for managing stress and maintaining resilience in high-pressure environments.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 - Introduction and guest background
• 02:00 - Relevance of executive skills in legal practice
• 04:00 - Impact of microaggressions and sociocultural factors on cognition
• 06:50 - Behavior patterns linked to executive function challenges
• 11:15 - The importance of giving tools time to work
• 16:00 - Normalizing individual differences in the workplace
• 23:00 - Practical tools for self-assessment and improvement
• 30:00 - Supporting colleagues with executive functioning challenges

In this episode, Steve's guest, Paul Karvanis, delves into redefining success and happiness within the legal profession. Paul, a former lawyer turned coach, speaker, and author, shares his journey from practicing law to coaching, emphasizing the importance of aligning career goals with personal values.

His books, The Happy Lawyer and The Successful Associate, provide a roadmap for lawyers seeking fulfillment beyond traditional achievements. Paul discusses the traps lawyers often fall into, the significance of self-awareness, and the role of community and self-compassion in achieving sustainable success.

Key takeaways:

• Success is personal; align work with your values for true satisfaction.
• Sustainable happiness comes from action, not just awareness.
• Adopt an ownership mindset for continuous growth and mastery.
• Excellence requires a dynamic loop of reflection and action.
• Build supportive communities and practice self-compassion for resilience.
• Embrace imperfect action to overcome overthinking and accelerate growth.

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction: Success vs. happiness in law

02:11 - Meet Paul Karvanis: Background and focus

05:38 - The Happy Lawyer Project origin

10:04 - Chasing traditional success vs. fulfillment

14:42 - Studying thriving lawyers

20:28 - Foundations for thriving: Community and self-compassion

26:29 - Why lawyers delay change until crises

35:25 - Correct work vs. useful work

In this episode, Scott Love, a renowned legal recruiter and host of the Rainmaking Podcast, delves into the complexities of lateral partner transitions within law firms. Scott shares his wealth of experience, offering listeners a roadmap to navigate these high-stakes decisions effectively. From understanding the motivations behind partner moves to the strategic importance of building trust and conducting thorough due diligence, Scott provides actionable insights to help partners avoid common pitfalls and achieve successful transitions.

Key Takeaways:

• Surge in Lateral Moves:

Discover why lateral moves are increasing and what firms are looking for in new partners.

• Motivations for Change:

Explore common reasons for partner transitions, including leadership and strategy issues.

• Building Trust:

Learn the importance of trust and relationship-building in legal business development.

• Due Diligence:

Gain a step-by-step guide to assessing opportunities and avoiding costly mistakes.

• Common Mistakes:

Understand the pitfalls partners often encounter, such as unrealistic expectations about client portability and integration challenges.

• Successful Transitions:

Understand the role of process, connection points, and force multipliers in seamless integrations.

• Ethics and Timing:

Learn about the ethical considerations and strategic timing crucial for minimizing risks.

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction to lateral partner movement 01:01 - Scott Love's background in legal recruiting 05:37 - Strategic reasons for partner moves 10:45 - Navigating moves effectively with a clear process 18:10 - Common mistakes in lateral moves 20:22 - What firms seek in new partners 26:47 - Trust-building and successful recruiting moves 35:20 - Final advice for partners considering a move

Resources:

• Partners on the Move - Scott's process hub and resources
• Rainmaking Podcast - Scott's podcast on business development for lawyers
• Steve Seckler's appearance on the Rainmaking Podcast

Connect with Scott Love:

• LinkedIn
• Email