“There’s nothing more compelling than live sports,” says Mark Attanasio, co-founder of asset manager Crescent Capital Group, on the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee. The marketplace, now some USD 3tn in size, has the most-watched programs in media, as well as the ability to bring communities together.

Attanasio, who is the principal owner of the Major League Baseball team the Milwaukee Brewers, has become the majority owner of the English football team Norwich City. The self-described ‘Ted Lasso’ of English football owners expects to take the team back to the Premier League in three to five years.

His advice to others wanting to invest in sports: start by being careful about ego purchases, even as a minority owner. Because it’s not easy to win.

There will be trading in minority investments in sports over the next decade or two as that market matures, predicts Attanasio.

Turning to credit, the co-founder of Crescent, which is approaching USD 50bn of credit AUM, says he expects to see more private credit loans trading, and that the asset class will “definitely grow to a secondary market.”

“All the markets, as they reach a [certain] size, go that way – including, by the way, sports,” he says. “You have a lot of secondary interest in sports teams that trade the NFL,” says Attanasio, who has seen particular minority pieces of US football teams selling for very high valuations.

“You’d expect to see additional liquidity in minority investments in sports over the next decade or two, as that market matures. And I think it’ll be good and bad for the market,” Attanasio predicts, pointing to better liquidity, but tighter spreads for investors.

Corporates have showcased resilience in navigating policy shifts, according to Amanda Lynam, Head of Macro Credit Research within the Portfolio Management Group at BlackRock, on the latest edition of the ‘Credit Exchange’ podcast with Lisa Lee.

Lynam also noted the surprising resilience of corporates to navigating a higher cost of capital.

But she advises monitoring the very important feedback loop – the link between corporate margins, the labour market, consumer spending, and overall economic activity and growth. “Right now, we are pretty constructive. Would characterise it as cautiously optimistic, but that could change very quickly – just like we’ve seen in other episodes,” Lynam said.

To effectively monitor that feedback loop, investors should focus on the high-frequency commentary coming from corporate management teams. “That was instructive during the pandemic, about the true length of supply chain disruptions, which was actually much longer than many market participants and economists expected,” she said. “And I think it will be informative in this environment as well, both positively and negatively, about how corporates can navigate this environment. So that’s the one thing that we are watching.”

Lynam makes a bit of an out-of-consensus call – selectively move down in credit quality in spite of the policy uncertainty and the residual overhang from that. Oftentimes, in an environment like this one, the automatic reflex action is to generically move up the ladder in quality. “Actually, that may not be the right call this time around,” she said.

At the same time, she doesn’t advise chasing all the way down the risk spectrum, into those pockets of the market that were already under pressure. “We wouldn’t be chasing all the way down to triple Cs,” she said. “But, for example, investors that are concentrated on the investment-grade market, we like moving down into the triple B pocket of that market – because, in our view, that’s an opportunity to pick up some additional spread, some additional risk premium, but not compromise too much on credit quality.”

“I actually think being a bit more opportunistic and not shying away from credit risk, but taking it in a selective way, is the right call,” she observed.

Investors can also capture some pretty attractive all-in yields in European corporate credit, she added, while the European corporate credit market also has some pretty favourable technicals.

But with that said, Lynam doesn’t see a wholesale reallocation from US dollar-denominated assets into Europe. “The case for American economic growth, productivity, the private markets in the US, for example, funding innovation – I think that’s a really compelling story.”

“I’ve continued to see large investors, both on the individual side [and] on the institutional side, continue to rotate their portfolios into fixed income,” said Wayne Dahl, co-portfolio manager of global credit and global credit investment grade strategies at Oaktree Capital Management, on the latest edition of the ‘Credit Exchange’ podcast with Lisa Lee.

Economic growth will slow, forecast Dahl, noting the challenges from tariffs and their impact on inflation, consumer sentiment, and the job market.

“We have to be eyes-wide-open to the fact that maybe some of those real positive factors in the first half might not have the same impact in the second half of the year,” he observed.

But that’s a good environment for credit. Despite credit spreads being near their tights, the sub-investment grade segment remains at a pretty attractive level, Dahl said. Investors can earn in the sub-investment grade credit space what some people would consider almost equity-like returns, but with less risk and less volatility.

High yield bonds, leveraged loans, structured credit such as CLOs, CMBS, RMBS – all these earn above seven percent. “And that’s a pretty good-trade-off for portfolios, to lock in that coupon, [to] be able to de-risk your portfolio, [and] still meet your objectives,” Dahl said.

That being said, Dahl cautioned there is stress building, pointing particularly to leveraged loans. “I think, as an active manager, that’s something you’re keenly aware of,” he said.

“We've done our first trades and some of the first trades in the industry in investment grade private,” says Matt Eagan, who heads the full discretion team at Loomis Sayles and oversees USD 80bn of AUM, on the latest edition of the Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.

Eagan, who sits on the asset manager’s board of directors, likens investing nowadays to Ozzy Osbourne’s song Crazy Train. Structural changes including the ageing of the workforce, the heightened need for security, and the growing US fiscal debt are inflationary factors, and should change how one conceptualises investing, says Eagan.

Credit is a good investment right now, Eagan notes. However, rather than looking at spreads, which are currently tight, Eagan advises focusing on the risk premium.

“People remember episodes where credit has been very tumultuous because that’s where the excesses were,” he says. “Today, they’re not there. The private credit market has derisked the public sector. The private credit market is a behemoth that’s almost become the mirror image of the public markets.”

Private credit will evolve including a huge portion of the market becoming more liquid. Loomis has bought private investment grade credit in the secondary market. It has also co-mingled private credit into its public portfolios, including mutual funds. “We’re not the only one doing this,” he says.

“I think investment grade privates will be one of the biggest ones that'll get to this point, where you’ll see much more secondary market activity.”

“We know there’s a big pan-European need for financing,” says Mathew Cestar, president of Arini, one of the fastest growing alternative credit managers, on the latest edition of the Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.

Cestar, who has more than 25 years of experience in European credit markets and once headed a major investment bank, details the evolution of capital markets in the region, from high-yield bonds to leveraged loans and now, private credit.

“European companies have never really had a love affair with public capital markets, largely in the sense that they are cookie-cutter and often volatile. Many of these companies, particularly at the mid-size [level], tend to be family owned, multi-generational, and private – they require something much more bespoke, relationship-driven and meaningful,” he says.

Via lending to the ‘real economy’, Cestar sees a significant opportunity across various sectors in Europe to go beyond lending to companies owned by private equity shops. And he discusses the recently-announced partnership Arini inked with Lazard – the first private credit and bank partnership of scale in Europe.

“As global pressures apply, we’re seeing not just M&A activity rise, but essentially the streamlining and reshoring of European businesses, and so there’s ample opportunity for capital investment to facilitate that,” notes Cestar.

“We’re at a reasonable balance now.” That’s the view of Stephen Ketchum, founder and CEO of Sound Point Capital Management, regarding the state of credit markets in June on the latest edition of the ‘Credit Exchange’ podcast with Lisa Lee.

Sound Point, an alternative asset manager with over USD 43bn in AUM, de-risked its portfolio earlier this year, when the firm felt there was a little bit too much optimism. It then added risk when sentiment skewed toward an excess of pessimism in April.

“We are in a world where there’s been a real paradigm shift in the way that our economy works,” Ketchum said, on the fading worries about an impending recession sparked by the ‘tariff tantrum’. The US in particular, but the developed world more generally, have moved on from what was, decades ago, a manufacturing economy with somewhat-predictable economic cycles. The US is now overwhelmingly a service economy, Ketchum said. Because of that, the last 15 years has seen two recessions, both of which were “self-inflicted”.

Tariffs will be a factor going forward. While Ketchum doesn’t expect that the US will impose 50% tariffs on friendly countries, there will continue to be negotiations, “so we’ll be prepared to manage through that,” Ketchum said. “The companies that we lend to will be prepared to manage through that.”

But for its private credit book, Ketchum could neither de-risk, nor add more risk. The most important thing is to underwrite for years, make sure one backs companies that have high barriers to entry in their market, and most importantly, have management teams you trust will be able to pivot when they need to, he advised.

While private credit broadly has showcased resilience and strength, “under the surface, not everything is as rosy,” according to James Reynolds, global co-head of private credit at Goldman Sachs. Reynolds spoke with Lisa Lee, managing director at Creditflux and editor-at-large at Debtwire, at this year’s Debtwire Private Credit Forum Europe in London on 17 June.

Goldman has started tracking the debt-to-equity swaps in the industry because LPs around the world wanted to know what is really happening. Since 2017, the European direct lending market has seen around 120 debt-to-equity swaps across the industry – and interestingly, around half that number have occurred in the last two years.

They tend to impact deals involving smaller companies from 2017, 2018 and 2019, and in more cyclical sectors such as consumer, retail and discretionary, Reynolds noted.

That is resulting in real bifurcation in European direct lending. “You are going to start seeing dispersion in performance – it’s happening,” he said. “The question now that LPs should be asking is: what are the capabilities of direct lenders to go and own these businesses? It’s a different job than lending to a business.”

Certain teams are going to come under pressure and there’s going to be more consolidation in the industry – indeed, it is already occurring. The landscape in direct lending in ten years’ time is going to look very different to today, with, in all likelihood, fewer, larger players, Reynolds said.

The mood at the Global ABS 2025 structured credit industry confab this week was positive, according to bankers, asset managers and investors at the Barcelona conference. Taped (mostly) live in Spain, Credit Exchange host Lisa Lee caught up with guests from Bank of America, hedge fund King Street, Blackstone and Federated Hermes.

Alex Batchvarov, managing director, global research at Bank of America:

When we take a look at the macro picture, there are certain changes which are gathering speed, and I think to some degree – maybe to a large degree – are irreversible.

The capital flows are changing direction. US exceptionalism is now being questioned.

[For] the structured finance sector, there are not many reasons for concern with regard to credit performance or structures or documentations.

Young Choi, global head of trading at King Street:

The tone was relatively constructive. There seems to be a preference from the crowd in Barcelona for European credit versus US corporate credit.

A couple of years ago if you asked that same question, it would have been reversed. There were a lot of things that concerned people about Europe. It hasn’t completely flipped, but I think the narrative has definitely changed.

Alex Leonard, senior managing director and head of European liquid credit strategies at Blackstone:

We're definitely seeing a lot more investors coming from wider locations. Previously it would have been primarily European-only. We’re now talking to Asian investors, Canadian investors, African investors, all wanting to discuss that opportunity in Europe with Blackstone. So I think that’s positive.

We do clearly need to remain cautious, but certainly, looking at the fundamentals and the real data we’re seeing across all of our portfolio companies, we generally continue to feel good about European credit.

Andrew Lennox, senior portfolio manager at Federated Hermes:

There's a lot of issuance in the pipeline, both on the ABS side and the CLO side. We’re going to have a busy post-conference period.

We’re starting to see some early signs of a pivot away from the allocations toward the US and investors looking for opportunities elsewhere, and Europe seems to be a beneficiary of that. It seems that Europe is picking up some momentum, whereas the US had it for a number of years. The US may be seen as a less reliable trading partner, but also as an investment opportunity.

The M&A market is normalising, said Matt Theodorakis, co-head of European direct lending at Ares, in the latest ‘Credit Exchange’ podcast, recorded at the SuperReturn International conference in Berlin, Germany.

“People are looking to do deals going forward” after taking a pause following ‘Liberation Day’, Theodorakis told host Lisa Lee, managing editor at Creditflux.

Investors – limited partners – are going to want to get paid back. In the next six to twelve months, their patience is going to wear thin, Theodorakis said. “People are going to really start to push and say, ‘Hey, guys, enough. There’s no reason not to start a sale process.’ We’ll actually enjoy the benefit of that.”

Before that, 2025 started out as a strong year. Direct lending in Europe has been deploying almost 50% more than a year ago, and the use of proceeds for M&A has been increasing.

Theodorakis is particularly extied about how artificial intelligence can impact the private credit business, particularly from the perspective of risk management. As a lender, Ares gets quality and frequently-updated information on their borrowers.

“We’ve been doing a pretty good job of it, but if we can turn that info into machine learning [and] getting ahead of trends, that is an absolute game-changer.”

Investors aren’t being paid enough a premium for the risks in US corporate credit, said Bryan Whalen, chief investment officer of fixed income at TCW, on the latest ‘Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee’ podcast.

Whalen, who oversees USD 180bn in fixed income assets, contends investment-grade corporate credit spreads should be paying 50% more than they are. Investors should be getting 120 basis points of spread for IG bonds, but today they are getting paid close to 80bps, Whalen said.

During the April volatility, there was a repricing of credit risk, but it didn’t lasted long enough to call the markets broken. But markets aren’t out of the woods, and it’s on the list of possibilities this year, according to Whalen. There are a lot of things that could cause volatility and if the Federal Reserve seems reluctant to rush to rescue markets, “you might actually see the market is broken because of the lack of liquidity,” Whalen said. “And it will stay broken, and that will magnify the downturn.”

While Whalen likes being underweight corporate credit, he sees attractiveness in parts of the securitised market – mortgage-backed securities in particular, because some buyers that have traditionally been in the space have temporarily pulled back. Moreover, while Whalen doesn’t like US high yield bonds, he does like some high yield bonds in emerging markets. Asia has the potential to outperform relative to the rest of the world.

On European growth prospects, markets may have gotten a little ahead of themselves on the narrative of a fiscal spending boost, and taken a pause on the approach of what Whalen describes, tongue-in-cheek, the “exporting of exceptionalism.” Still, there are some good opportunities in euro-denominated investment-grade corporate bonds, where investors get paid a decent amount of additional spread for the same company in a euro currency versus US dollars, he noted.