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If you’ve ever struggled to balance perfection with business reality, this episode is for you. In this episode of the Design Systems Podcast, Chris Strahl talks with Noelle Lansford, founder of Shep, about why chasing the “perfect system” often breaks more than it fixes. Drawing on her experience across startups and Fortune 5 companies, Noelle argues that design systems succeed when they serve people and the business—not when they chase architectural purity. She and Chris dig into the realities of relational alignment between design, engineering, and product, the shift from component factories to consulting mindsets, and what AI means for the next generation of design leadership.

Here’s what stood out:

• Perfection shouldn’t be your goal
• Design systems teams should pursue an infrastructure + enablement structure
• Systems of systems thinking works—if the cultural conditions are right
• AI makes iteration faster, which makes human oversight more essential

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Guest

Noelle Lansford began her career as an engineer on design system teams before transitioning into design, where she discovered her passion for connecting the technical and human sides of digital product creation. Today, as the founder of Shep, a design systems consultancy that partners with organizations from early-stage startups to Fortune 5 companies, Noelle helps bridge the gap between design, engineering, and business strategy. Her work focuses on creating systems that balance structure with flexibility, prioritize people over process, and deliver lasting business value instead of chasing perfection.

Host

Chris Strahl is co-founder and CEO of Knapsack, host of @TheDSPod, DnD DM, and occasional river guide. You can find Chris on LinkedIn.

Sponsor

Sponsored by Knapsack, the design system platform that brings teams together. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

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In this episode, Chris Strahl talks with Elyse Holladay—staff design engineer at Color Health and host of On Theme—about the evolution of design systems and how AI is reshaping the way we think about abstraction, collaboration, and contribution. They explore what it means to maintain relevance in a landscape where LLMs increasingly influence product development, and reflect on whether design systems are still for people—or for machines. Elyse shares a clear-eyed yet optimistic take on how AI can enhance, rather than replace, the work of design system practitioners.

Key Points:

• Design systems are shifting focus from components to solving collaboration and workflow problems.
• AI isn’t replacing systems—it’s changing how they’re used and what they need to support.
• Smaller teams can move faster by focusing on what’s most valuable, not doing everything.
• Documentation is evolving to prioritize practical guidance over polished presentations.
• Design systems are becoming infrastructure for both humans and AI.

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Guest

Elyse Holladay (she/her) is a long-time Design Systems practitioner and speaker, currently the Staff Design Engineer for Color Health's Continuum Design System. She was tapped to start the first Design System team for Indeed, has taught hundreds of hours of technical training content, and has been invited to speak at well-known industry events such as Clarity Conference, CSSConf Berlin, and Frontend Design Conference. She is also the host of On Theme: Design Systems in Depth. She's a technical generalist, off-the-charts extrovert, avid reader, and expat Texan with an armadillo tattoo.

Host

Chris Strahl is co-founder and CEO of Knapsack, host of @TheDSPod, DnD DM, and occasional river guide. You can find Chris on Twitter as @chrisstrahl and on LinkedIn.

Sponsor

Sponsored by Knapsack, the design system platform that brings teams together. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

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Design systems aren’t just a UI toolkit—they’re the backbone of digital product creation and management. In this episode, engineer and researcher Steve Dodier-Lazaro joins Chris Strahl to unpack why treating design systems like standalone products is holding teams back. They explore what it really takes to scale product design and development in enterprise environments—from shared tooling and token standards to how AI and LLMs can bridge messy, real-world workflows.

In this episode:

• Why design systems are dependencies, not deliverables
• Tools and standards shaping the future of digital production
• How AI will reshape the infrastructure behind design and engineering

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Guest

Steve Dodier-Lazaro is a freelance software engineer specialised in design systems and frontend development based in Seine Saint-Denis, France. Steve is dedicated to advancing the design system tooling ecosystem through his open-source contributions as a community advocate, addon author and contributor to Storybook, and through projects around design token tooling.

Host

Chris Strahl is co-founder and CEO of Knapsack, host of @TheDSPod, DnD DM, and occasional river guide. You can find Chris on Twitter as @chrisstrahl and on LinkedIn.

Sponsor

Sponsored by Knapsack, the design system platform that brings teams together. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

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What does it take to transform 121 years of automotive legacy into a modern digital ecosystem? Catherine Dubut, Director of Global UX Strategy at Ford Pro, joins Chris Strahl to share how her team is reengineering the organization’s fragmented product landscape into a scalable, unified digital assembly line.

With over 80 legacy sites, 20+ global markets, and deeply siloed teams, the scale and complexity of Ford Pro’s challenge was immense. Catherine explains how her team brought structure to chaos—combining elements from outdated systems, building new foundations where needed, and stitching them together into a single, coherent design system. From establishing governance and cross-functional collaboration to introducing micro frontends and scaling adoption, this episode offers a playbook for modernizing UX at enterprise scale.

Key themes:

• Designing for fleets, not just drivers—multiple users, journeys, and roles per customer
• Replatforming 80+ tools across legacy systems and international business units
• Building a design system through consolidation, extension, and future-proofing
• Using micro frontends to bridge disparate tech stacks across Ford Pro
• Measuring success through design efficiency, team adoption, and developer alignment

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Guest

Catherine Dubut is Director of Global UX Strategy at Ford Pro, the commercial business of Ford Motor Company. She oversees a global team of individual contributors and managers across design, user research, information architecture, and content strategy. Catherine is a seasoned UX leader with a track record of designing impactful experiences, driving UX practice maturity, and digital transformation at dynamic brands at places like Samsung Electronics, REI, and Intuit. Based in Seattle, Catherine’s been involved in design community activities including organizing local events, mentoring underrepresented UX professionals, public speaking, and writing. She enjoys exploring cities, outdoors, architecture, and other adventures with her husband, daughter, and terrier mix rescue.

Host

Chris Strahl is co-founder and CEO of Knapsack, host of @TheDSPod, DnD DM, and occasional river guide. You can find Chris on Twitter as @chrisstrahl and on LinkedIn.

Sponsor

Sponsored by Knapsack, the design system platform that brings teams together. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

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The design token nerds are taking over the pod! In this episode, guest host Christopher Bloom sits down with Garth Braithwaite, Lead Senior Staff Design Engineer at Adobe, for a deep dive into the inner workings of Spectrum’s design tokens. Garth shares how Adobe manages the complexity of scaling a multi-platform design system, and how thoughtful collaboration across teams builds real value for users.

They get into the weeds on cross-team communication, naming conventions, accessibility, versioning, and Garth’s own front-end manifesto. If you’re building, scaling, or just geeking out over design tokens—this one’s pure gold.

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Guest
Garth Braithwaite is a Lead Senior Staff Design Engineer at Adobe, where he plays a key role in maintaining the Spectrum design system. With a background in both design and engineering, Garth brings a unique perspective to scaling design systems and improving workflows across teams.

Host
Christopher Bloom is a Principal Front-end Engineer at Knapsack. He's a design system nerd, avid mountain biker, and all-around ball of insight and energy.

Sponsor
Sponsored by Knapsack, the digital production platform that brings teams together. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

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In this episode, TJ Pitre, founder of South Left, joins the podcast to trace the real evolution of digital production — from the early days of Flash and Fireworks to today's dynamic, system-driven workflows. TJ shares his journey bridging design and development, reflects on the rise of modern tools like Figma, and explores the shift toward more connected, production-ready design. Along the way, he breaks down the growing role of the design engineer, the impact of AI on creative workflows, and what the future holds for building smarter, faster digital products.

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Guest

TJ Pitre is the founder of South Left, a boutique front-end agency that lives at the intersection of design and development. With roots in illustration, UI design, and engineering, TJ helps teams transform static ideas into dynamic, production-ready systems. He’s a passionate advocate for design engineering, smarter workflows, and the evolving future of digital production.

Host

Andrew Rohman is EVP of Strategy at Knapsack, where he helps enterprises close the gap between design and code and accelerate digital product delivery at scale. He’s passionate about building better systems, reducing risk, and creating positive change across teams and organizations.

Sponsor
Sponsored by Knapsack, the digital production platform that brings teams together. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

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This week, we're digging into the Design Systems Podcast archives. Guest host Richard Banfield, VP of Design Leadership at Knapsack, revisits a 2020 conversation between host Chris Strahl and Rick Rodriguez, then Head of Design Systems at Walmart Labs.

Rick shares how his team developed Living Design, Walmart’s internal design system, to support both customer-facing and associate-facing digital products. The conversation explores what it takes to design for scale across a massive enterprise ecosystem, how to navigate legacy technologies while planning for the future, and how to engage people across your organization to drive alignment and adoption.

You’ll also hear about:

• Lessons in contribution, ownership, and iteration within a federated design organization
• The ambassador program that helped evangelize and align teams across the enterprise
• Insights into how data and qualitative feedback drive system decisions — especially around complex components like carousels

Although this conversation originally aired five years ago, the lessons Rick shares remain strikingly relevant. As design systems continue to mature, this episode offers a timeless perspective on scaling thoughtfully, building collaboratively, and evolving with intention.

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Guest

Rick Rodriguez is currently a Product Design Manager at Meta, but at the time of our original episode he wast the Head of Design Systems at Walmart Labs.  He is an avid runner, hand letterer, and superfan of cappuccinos and donut breaks. You can find Rick on Twitter as @rickrodriguez, and on LinkedIn.

Hosts

Richard Benfield is the VP of Design Leadership at Knapsack. He's acted as an advisor and interim executive to category-leading organizations, ia a best selling author, been a founder/CEO, and built and sold several businesses over the last 20+ years.

Chris Strahl is co-founder and CEO of Knapsack, host of @TheDSPod, DnD DM, and occasional river guide. You can find Chris on Twitter as @chrisstrahl and on LinkedIn.

Sponsor
Sponsored by Knapsack, the design system platform that brings teams together. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

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In this episode of the Design Systems Podcast, guest host Andrew Rohman sits down with Jon Warden to explore how GSK leverages design systems to drive consistency, innovation, and efficiency across a highly complex global organization. With multiple brands, multi-product ecosystems, and diverse regional needs, GSK must balance scale and flexibility while embracing automation, AI, and modern workflows—all while keeping the customer experience at the center of their digital strategy.

Key Topics Covered:

• How GSK creates design consistency across multiple brands, products, and global regions
• The role of design systems in managing complexity at scale
• AI and automation in streamlining workflows and driving efficiency
• How GSK balances innovation with regulatory and operational constraints
• The impact of scalable workflows on accelerating digital transformation
• Building digital experiences that meet customer needs while maintaining global consistency

Tune in for a deep dive into how one of the world’s leading pharmaceutical companies is leveraging design systems to power its digital strategy, drive innovation, and create seamless customer experiences at scale.

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Guest

Jon Warden is a user experience, design, and product strategist with over 25 years of experience. In the past decade, he has created, led, and managed UX, design, and product teams across various sectors, including news (The Times, London), B2B, B2C, media agencies, telecoms, and charity. Jon focuses on providing clear UX direction throughout the development lifecycle. He and his teams emphasize outcome-based user research, data, and user testing programs. Through UX design practices, they support the creation of user-centric products that engage customers across all channels. Currently, Jon is the Global Director of UX, Design & Research in the Commercial Digital & AI division at GSK.

Sponsor
Sponsored by Knapsack, the design system platform that brings teams together. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

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In this episode of The Design Systems Podcast, guest host Richard Banfield takes us on a journey through the intersection of artificial intelligence and design systems. We revisit some of the most compelling discussions featuring experts David Calleja, Nick Hahn, Ranjeet Tayi, and Kate Moran. Together, they unravel how AI is transforming the way digital products are designed and developed. From AI's potential as a creative partner to its role in automating repetitive tasks, this episode dives into the profound impact AI is having on design workflows. We explore how AI can serve as a copilot, adapting in real time to deliver personalized user experiences, and discuss the importance of maintaining human oversight to ensure quality and integrity. Whether it's hyper-personalizing user interfaces or enhancing the efficiency of design processes, AI is not set to replace humans but to augment our creativity and productivity. Join us as we explore the exciting possibilities AI brings to the world of design systems.

Check out the original episodes:

• How AI is Revolutionizing Design Systems and Customer Experiences with Dave Calleja
• Design Systems and Ways of Working: Nick Hahn on Collaboration, Adoption, and AI
• Ranjeet Tayi from Informatica: AI-Driven Design
• Why Kate Moran Thinks Humans Are Essential to the Future of Generative UI and AI

View the transcript of this episode.

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Sponsor
Sponsored by Knapsack, the design system platform that brings teams together. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

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in this episode Knapsack's VP of Design Leadership, Richard Banfield takes a look back at a conversation between Chris Strahl and Emily Campbell. They discuss the convergence of design and code, and what that actually looks like. They walk through what a designer role looks like in a modern digital product team and Emily explains her idea that design and development are the same. They just have different approaches to the same process or medium.

Other topics the duo touch on include questioning if designers should learn to code, intent around design and development, the importance of making intentional decisions, and more.

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Emily Campbell
Now the VP of Design at HackerRank, at the time of original recording Emaily was a Senior Design Specialist for InVision. Emily is a veteran design and product practitioner who focuses on human-centered design, translating creative strategy into business value, building a culture of leadership, and sharing ownership across disciplines. On the side, Emily enjoys exploring the desert around her home in Moab, Utah with her husband and three kids.

You can find Emily on Twitter and LinkedIn.

Sponsor
Sponsored by Knapsack, the design system platform that brings teams together. Learn more at knapsack.cloud.

Other Show Notes
Learn about Conway's Law and the Portland Swifts.