Draft Zero: a screenwriting podcast

DZ-126: Secrets and Clues


Listen Later

Listen if you want to understand how hidden information drives character motivation and plot structure!

“Getting information puts your character in danger. And danger rewards your character with information." — One of three ideas we steal from game design in this episode. In this two part series, we talk about how secrets, clues and hidden information motivate characters and may (or may not) help you plot from a character perspective. Part One (this episode) looks at WAKE UP DEAD MAN; while Part Two looks at SIDE EFFECTS, and the pilot episode of SHRINKING.

The other two (related) ideas are:

  • Landmark information (characters just have it), Secret (they know it's there, need to unlock it), and Hidden (invisible until they pay the cost)
  • Narrative velocity — are characters pushed forward or are they pulled forward?
  • To that end, in this episode Stu, Chas and Mel start with the murder mystery (ostensibly the easier deep-dive): Rian Johnson’s WAKE UP DEAD MAN. But this is a complex film made even more complex by being a dual-protagonist film. Uhuh. Benoit Blanc is pulled through the story by his need to solve the case; Father Judd pushed through, against his will, to prove his innocence. Breaking down how that plays out — and why it matters for the kind of escalation each character can sustain — is the heart of the episode.

    And inevitably we go on some tangents: pointers, plants, and underpinnings (from our Everything Everywhere All At Once episode) fair play in locked-room mysteries, Narrative POV (as always) and node-based plotting and what dungeon-crawl game design has to do with writing a web of clues.

    As always: SPOILERS ABOUND and all copyright material used under fair use for educational purposes.

    LIKE THIS EPISODE?

    • Discuss with our Patrons on Patreon.
    • Join the discussion on Reddit.
    • Watch and comment on YouTube.
    • Send us feedback.
    • Thanks to our Patrons, especially Khrob, Theis, Sandra, Jesse, Randy, Paulo, Thomas, Jennifer, Malay, Alexandre and Lily.

      Read the transcript for this episode.

      ———

      "Information puts players in danger and danger rewards characters with information, right? That's kind of the loop with like thriller game design." — Stu Willis @ 00:05:40

      ———

      CHAPTERS

      • 00:00:00 – Cold Open
      • 00:00:18 – What do we mean by Secrets and Clues?
      • 00:04:17 – › Landmark, hidden, and secret information defined
      • 00:08:10 – › Narrative velocity as push and pull for characters
      • 00:13:22 – WAKE UP DEAD MAN
      • 00:17:56 – › Key learnings preview: push-pull and narrative velocity
      • 00:32:33 – › Mapping character awareness of secrets through WAKE UP DEAD MAN
      • 00:58:21 – › Distinguishing secrets, clues, and hidden information
      • 01:13:17 – › Benoit Blanc's character arc and the choice of grace
      • 01:22:50 – KEY LEARNINGS & WRAP UP
      • 01:24:22 – › Character drives how secrets are hidden and revealed
      • 01:25:34 – › Narrative velocity and escalating stakes reveal character
      • FILMS

        • WAKE UP DEAD MAN (2025) — (w) Rian Johnson
        • SCRIPTS

          • Study the script: WAKE UP DEAD MAN (2025) — Rian Johnson
          • LINKS

            • Read: DIY & dragons: Landmark, Hidden, Secret
            • Read: The Alexandrian » Advanced Node-Based Design
            • Read: Ascii Dreams: The Quest for Quests (Part 1)
            • Read: Ascii Dreams: The Quest for Quests (Part 2)
            • Read: Mel's KNIVES OUT: A Rose by Any Other Name Would Not Clue Us In
            • EPISODES IN THE SECRETS AND CLUES SERIES

              • DZ-126: Secrets and Clues
              • DZ-127: Secrets and Clues 2 - The Cost of Revelation
              • RELATED EPISODES

                • DZ-90: Setups & Payoffs in EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE
                • ———

                  More Draft Zero is brought to you by our awesome Patreons.

                  If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, a rating on Spotify, or a review on Podchaser.

                  We are @stuwillis, @mehlsbells and @chasffisher on Twitter. You can find @draft_zero and @_shotzero on Instagram and Twitter.

                  Full show notes at: https://draft-zero.com/2026/dz-126/

                  ...more
                  View all episodesView all episodes
                  Download on the App Store

                  Draft Zero: a screenwriting podcastBy Chas Fisher and Stuart Willis

                  • 4.8
                  • 4.8
                  • 4.8
                  • 4.8
                  • 4.8

                  4.8

                  114 ratings


                  More shows like Draft Zero: a screenwriting podcast

                  View all
                  The Business by KCRW

                  The Business

                  671 Listeners

                  Scriptnotes Podcast by John August and Craig Mazin

                  Scriptnotes Podcast

                  2,434 Listeners

                  The Director’s Cut - A DGA Podcast by Directors Guild of America

                  The Director’s Cut - A DGA Podcast

                  749 Listeners

                  Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso by Higher Ground

                  Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso

                  1,489 Listeners

                  The Watch by The Ringer

                  The Watch

                  5,410 Listeners

                  Blank Check with Griffin & David by Blank Check Productions

                  Blank Check with Griffin & David

                  6,194 Listeners

                  The A24 Podcast by A24

                  The A24 Podcast

                  1,083 Listeners

                  Unspooled by Paul Scheer & Amy Nicholson | Realm

                  Unspooled

                  4,757 Listeners

                  The Big Picture by The Ringer

                  The Big Picture

                  5,715 Listeners

                  The Screenwriting Life with Meg LeFauve and Lorien McKenna by Meg LeFauve & Lorien McKenna

                  The Screenwriting Life with Meg LeFauve and Lorien McKenna

                  977 Listeners

                  Team Deakins by James Ellis Deakins, Roger Deakins

                  Team Deakins

                  1,123 Listeners

                  SmartLess by Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, Will Arnett

                  SmartLess

                  58,226 Listeners

                  The Prestige TV Podcast by The Ringer

                  The Prestige TV Podcast

                  1,701 Listeners

                  The Town with Matthew Belloni by The Ringer

                  The Town with Matthew Belloni

                  1,121 Listeners

                  Good Hang with Amy Poehler by The Ringer

                  Good Hang with Amy Poehler

                  12,456 Listeners