eCommerce Master Plan

eCommerce Master Plan

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eCommerce Master Plan episodes

  • eCommerce MasterPlan | 567: How MUD Jeans Built the World’s First Circular Denim Brand — and What eCommerce Can Learn from It

    Bert van Son is the founder at MUD Jeans, the first and only circular jeans company in the world. Founded in 2012 they’ve been a BCorp since 2013. Selling via their Shopify store, their own store in Amsterdam, and over 250 stockists across Europe. 

     

    In this episode, Bert shares how MUD Jeans is redefining what it means to be a sustainable fashion brand — from leasing jeans to turning old denim into new. Get ready to learn how circular design, smart eCommerce strategy, and genuine purpose can work together to build a brand that lasts. 

     

    Hit PLAY to hear: 

     

    • How Mud Jeans turns old denim into brand-new jeans — and makes it profitable 
    • Why sustainability alone won’t sell (and what really drives customers to buy) 
    • The smart circular model that keeps customers coming back 
    • How mindset-based segmentation helps Mud Jeans target the right audience 
    • The surprising tool helping them sell secondhand jeans online 
    • Why ultra-fast fashion is hurting us all — and what eCommerce brands can do differently 

      •  

      Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

      [03:51] “Intern Turnover and Inspiration” 

      [08:22] Leisure Jeans: A Global Sensation 

      [13:23] Customer Sustainability Segments 

      [15:55] Fast Fashion’s Economic Impact 

      [17:21] Tech Hubris & Brexit Concerns 

      [18:44] Listen to Bert’s Top Tips! 

       

      Full episode notes here: https://ecmp.info/567

      —

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      WEBVTT

      00:00.591 –> 00:09.414

      [SPEAKER_02]: What’s the number one driver to buy pair jeans, the fit and the second thing is the washing and the color and the softness and the material, the price and the availability.

      00:09.834 –> 00:16.477

      [SPEAKER_02]: The list is long until 14 is something about sustainability, which is a set discovery, I think.

      00:16.597 –> 00:23.019

      [SPEAKER_02]: So we’ve been shouting about CO2 emission, less water use, it’s non-toxic dye and the whole enchilada.

      00:23.319 –> 00:26.240

      [SPEAKER_02]: But nobody cares, people want a good pair of jeans that fits well.

      00:28.950 –> 00:31.331

      [SPEAKER_00]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

      00:31.891 –> 00:35.952

      [SPEAKER_00]: Here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

      00:36.472 –> 00:44.255

      [SPEAKER_00]: Cutting through the hive to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

      00:47.763 –> 00:48.863

      [SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.

      00:48.883 –> 00:50.044

      [SPEAKER_01]: It’s great to have you here.

      00:50.144 –> 00:53.926

      [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

      00:53.986 –> 01:02.709

      [SPEAKER_01]: Before we get started, a quick thank you to Leslie Romalac past guest of this show for suggesting this brilliant guest to us.

      01:02.869 –> 01:04.030

      [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you Leslie.

      01:04.950 –> 01:08.612

      [SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we get to hear from.

      01:09.632 –> 01:33.112

      [SPEAKER_01]: one of the most sustainable fashion brands in the world who have worked out how to do circularity with denim, yes jeans, and as a bit of a denim junkie myself, not only am I loving but take on sustainability, customer segmentation and how it fits into all parts of the business, I also love the fact we’re talking about jeans.

      01:33.532 –> 01:34.393

      [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, we

      01:34.853 –> 01:43.362

      [SPEAKER_01]: This is a super inspiring episode with lots of good practical tips and some very cool recommendations in the top tip section at the end as well.

      01:43.422 –> 01:46.405

      [SPEAKER_01]: So, as always, listen to the end everybody.

      01:52.323 –> 02:00.468

      [SPEAKER_01]: And now to introduce our special guest, Bert van Sorn is the founder at Mud Jeans, the first and only circular jeans company in the world.

      02:00.929 –> 02:12.336

      [SPEAKER_01]: Founded in 2012, they’ve been a B-Corp since 2013, selling via their Shopify store, their own store in Amsterdam, and over 250 stockest across Europe, hello, but.

      02:12.816 –> 02:14.817

      [SPEAKER_02]: Hello, Chloe, good afternoon.

      02:14.937 –> 02:17.059

      [SPEAKER_01]: Lovely to have you here on the show.

      02:17.199 –> 02:19.821

      [SPEAKER_01]: How did you end up getting into the world

      02:22.820 –> 02:27.383

      [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I actually first ended up in the world of clothing 14 years ago.

      02:28.244 –> 02:36.129

      [SPEAKER_02]: During that time, we shipped a goods from China and we made beautiful clothing to protect yourself and look good.

      02:36.690 –> 02:50.279

      [SPEAKER_02]: And I’ve seen the clothing industry in my life changing from something close that you were to protect yourself, but to look good, but to this fast fashion monster that we have today and that’s why I started this company 12 years ago.

      02:51.274 –> 02:54.395

      [SPEAKER_01]: And so, let’s tell us a bit about mud jeans.

      02:54.455 –> 02:57.917

      [SPEAKER_01]: You’re in Amsterdam, you’re selling globally, I believe.

      02:57.937 –> 03:00.838

      [SPEAKER_01]: And what does the team look like?

      03:01.158 –> 03:03.399

      [SPEAKER_01]: Do you keep everything in house, do you outsource things?

      03:03.980 –> 03:07.301

      [SPEAKER_02]: No, we do sue outsource things, for instance, logistics.

      03:07.641 –> 03:16.265

      [SPEAKER_02]: So we have a logistic partner that mainly does our B2C part, but also delivering the stores, which is one of the complications that we have with them.

      03:16.585 –> 03:19.226

      [SPEAKER_02]: Because most logistic partners are either very good at B2C

      03:21.607 –> 03:27.231

      [SPEAKER_02]: And then cannot do the shop part, or you have a logistic partner, it’s very good in the shop deliveries.

      03:28.011 –> 03:32.735

      [SPEAKER_02]: But it isn’t fast enough for the web shop deliveries, so it’s always struggle actually there.

      03:33.295 –> 03:34.736

      [SPEAKER_02]: That’s one of the things we outsource.

      03:36.037 –> 03:46.043

      [SPEAKER_02]: We are 12 people, and a lot of interns also very often, because Amsterdam is denim city, we have low fashion schools here,

      03:48.925 –> 04:05.546

      [SPEAKER_02]: And also because we do something different, we are lucky to get very intelligent, intelligent, intrinsically motivated young people wanting to use their efforts in our company, which is always a joy to see and coming, but also going unlocally.

      04:06.347 –> 04:15.693

      [SPEAKER_02]: most of the time actually this is the time of the year when we get we have to say goodbye to six or seven interns and six or seven new interns are coming this time for instance.

      04:15.733 –> 04:22.137

      [SPEAKER_02]: We have a girl from Philadelphia United States and I ask her why do you come to us?

      04:23.458 –> 04:33.022

      [SPEAKER_02]: and our answer was, well, you’re the only company in the world that’s doing this and also Holland’s apparently is a from-runner in circular industries or in circular fashion.

      04:33.503 –> 04:38.125

      [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s amazing always to see that, and it helps us keeping going also.

      04:38.245 –> 04:44.367

      [SPEAKER_02]: This young and to jazz and energy, especially for me as an old man that’s always good to see.

      04:45.088 –> 04:49.009

      [SPEAKER_01]: And I’m guessing that there must be a great part in that

      04:50.986 –> 05:01.429

      [SPEAKER_01]: Not reeducating people, but correctly educating people at the very beginning of their careers with what’s possible in circularity so they can go out and spread the gospel as it were.

      05:01.989 –> 05:03.289

      [SPEAKER_02]: No, it’s the other way around.

      05:03.629 –> 05:04.029

      [SPEAKER_02]: Really?

      05:04.169 –> 05:06.390

      [SPEAKER_02]: Correcting me, I learned from them.

      05:06.810 –> 05:07.730

      [SPEAKER_02]: They’re very motivated.

      05:07.770 –> 05:09.230

      [SPEAKER_02]: You have to know they study this.

      05:10.011 –> 05:13.391

      [SPEAKER_02]: The schools have changed and they come up with a lot of ideas.

      05:20.573 –> 05:29.191

      [SPEAKER_02]: new things and you know every day we try to do better and with with that energy we we sometimes have great ideas coming in.

      05:30.011 –> 05:34.753

      [SPEAKER_01]: Now, when I introduced you, I said you were the first lonely circular jeans company in the world.

      05:34.873 –> 05:36.614

      [SPEAKER_01]: What does circular mean to mud?

      05:36.754 –> 05:43.296

      [SPEAKER_01]: Is it about buyback schemes, leasing, rental, what does circular mean in your world?

      05:43.777 –> 05:48.038

      [SPEAKER_02]: All of that, but the main thought is that we want to make jeans out of all jeans.

      05:48.659 –> 05:57.342

      [SPEAKER_02]: That means we find ways commercially to get back our old jeans, for instance, by leasing, but also by giving people a tenure or discount

      05:59.943 –> 06:05.706

      [SPEAKER_02]: We then ship those to Spain where we work with a partner that does the refibring.

      06:05.946 –> 06:06.846

      [SPEAKER_02]: Is that an English word?

      06:06.906 –> 06:07.366

      [SPEAKER_02]: I think so.

      06:07.486 –> 06:08.847

      [SPEAKER_01]: So it’s not works here.

      06:09.587 –> 06:11.308

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s really tearing apart.

      06:11.568 –> 06:17.371

      [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, getting rid of the metal parts, tearing apart the genes in several different steps.

      06:17.411 –> 06:21.413

      [SPEAKER_02]: There’s videos on our YouTube channel showing this.

      06:22.353 –> 06:32.457

      [SPEAKER_02]: We have to mix it still then with new organic coating and that’s mechanically recycled coating gives us the chance to use 40 percent all genes.

      06:32.937 –> 06:40.100

      [SPEAKER_02]: We call that post-consumer waste into our new genes and that’s sadly we are the only one really doing this.

      06:41.020 –> 06:44.082

      [SPEAKER_02]: are also being transparent about it because it’s difficult.

      06:44.462 –> 06:46.543

      [SPEAKER_02]: You have to do all the efforts to get back all genes.

      06:46.563 –> 06:56.347

      [SPEAKER_02]: You have to ship them to Spain and you work with someone who’s ready to use not only virgin material but also old genes and it’s always more difficult.

      06:56.428 –> 07:05.212

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s actually the same princess as in the plastic industry where virgin material is a lot cheaper than recycled material

      07:09.055 –> 07:11.376

      [SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, that’s where the trouble starts.

      07:11.516 –> 07:13.636

      [SPEAKER_02]: So we are our materials are more expensive.

      07:14.156 –> 07:19.318

      [SPEAKER_02]: And we also try not to use toxic materials for dying, so we use non-toxic in-eagle, for instance.

      07:20.198 –> 07:23.099

      [SPEAKER_02]: We recycle the water, we use it at the plants.

      07:24.079 –> 07:26.900

      [SPEAKER_02]: And the list is long, you can read it in our sustainability report.

      07:27.280 –> 07:31.421

      [SPEAKER_02]: But back to the question, the circularity means that I make genes out of all genes.

      07:32.161 –> 07:34.622

      [SPEAKER_02]: And our dot on the horizon is that we want to make

      07:35.483 –> 07:39.836

      [SPEAKER_02]: One day, one hundred percent new genes out of one hundred percent whole genes.

      07:40.640 –> 07:47.306

      [SPEAKER_01]: which is a problem of many different angles from the fiber through to sourcing it in the first place.

      07:47.326 –> 08:06.723

      [SPEAKER_01]: Could you mention about how, for someone known, you know, it’s illogical that Virgin product is cheaper than recycled product, but it’s also, of course, the other big challenge I would assume is that if you’re using Virgin product, you can pick up the phone and go, I need X-meters of this denim.

      08:07.444 –> 08:16.473

      [SPEAKER_01]: by the end of the week, and it arrives, whereas when you’re using the recycled, you’ve got to find enough denim to then organize the manufacturing of the cloth.

      08:16.814 –> 08:19.897

      [SPEAKER_01]: So it’s a lot more complicated in the supply chain too.

      08:20.317 –> 08:22.519

      [SPEAKER_02]: No, I have to, um, I really.

      08:23.040 –> 08:27.124

      [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I’ll tell a story about the first years when we started this and we started with Lisa Chines.

      08:28.262 –> 08:31.224

      [SPEAKER_02]: which was picked up by the whole press all over the world.

      08:31.244 –> 08:38.230

      [SPEAKER_02]: It was just funny, the Guardian wrote about it’s the Wall Street Journal, because everything had been invented in the tenement in the street, but not lazy jeans.

      08:39.031 –> 08:40.952

      [SPEAKER_02]: So that meant that we got a lot of attention.

      08:40.992 –> 08:43.374

      [SPEAKER_02]: And people were asking me, okay, you’re taking back all jeans.

      08:43.855 –> 08:45.176

      [SPEAKER_02]: What are you really going to do with it?

      08:45.276 –> 08:52.462

      [SPEAKER_02]: So we said, okay, let’s try to be smart, no budget, small company will show it by on the socials, on Insta and things.

      08:53.122 –> 09:01.805

      [SPEAKER_02]: We’ll drive with two cars full of old jeans, two Valencia, where our partners who is doing the recycling and we show them how the whole system works.

      09:02.905 –> 09:17.571

      [SPEAKER_02]: But at that time I didn’t have enough old jeans, so I called the clothing, old clothing gatherer and asked them if he had some jeans for me and he said, yeah, of course, you can go to this place and on Saturday morning where we put all the old stuff that we get.

      09:18.711 –> 09:23.056

      [SPEAKER_02]: And I knew we had a lot of waste in clothing at that time.

      09:23.076 –> 09:29.922

      [SPEAKER_02]: But I’ve never realized and I advise people to go and look at such places in UK or in Holland.

      09:31.064 –> 09:36.949

      [SPEAKER_02]: You walk into a hole that’s five football fields large, 20 meters high.

      09:37.650 –> 09:40.912

      [SPEAKER_02]: full of denim, not even old clothing but old denim.

      09:41.352 –> 09:42.352

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s already separated.

      09:42.372 –> 09:46.734

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s unimaginable the overproduction and the waste we have of clothing.

      09:46.954 –> 09:49.315

      [SPEAKER_02]: We do not realize that even me at that time.

      09:49.916 –> 09:52.197

      [SPEAKER_02]: So there’s a lot of genes to be recycled.

      09:52.297 –> 09:57.159

      [SPEAKER_02]: So instead of burning it or putting into the ground or whatever, we have to start recycling.

      09:57.219 –> 10:02.441

      [SPEAKER_02]: And out of all clothing got it, only 1% is recycled.

      10:02.801 –> 10:03.782

      [SPEAKER_02]: So there’s a lot to do there.

      10:04.520 –> 10:06.001

      [SPEAKER_01]: So there’s endless supply.

      10:06.021 –> 10:08.724

      [SPEAKER_02]: There’s endless supply, yes, yes, yes, yes.

      10:09.945 –> 10:25.238

      [SPEAKER_01]: So how have you, I mean, obviously, you know, you said, when you launched the, the leaseable jeans, the rental jeans system, that was huge news and you got lots of lots of great PR from it, do you find generally the mission that you’re on?

      10:25.698 –> 10:32.184

      [SPEAKER_01]: Translate easily into sales and marketing, you know, it’s the reason why they’re getting that.

      10:32.764 –> 10:39.048

      [SPEAKER_02]: No, getting a lot of PR’s nice, especially for a fresh brand, a new brand that wants to start.

      10:39.128 –> 10:43.311

      [SPEAKER_02]: It gives you a kickstart, but it doesn’t mean you sell a lot of jeans.

      10:43.411 –> 10:47.414

      [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people are interested, they’re really curious what you do.

      10:48.074 –> 11:06.480

      [SPEAKER_02]: But the next step to buy a pair of jeans that has recycled content in it is sort of a next level step because people I I got a lot of questions like does the material feel more rigid or does it fall apart quickly or does it smell bad or you can you can name it.

      11:06.680 –> 11:13.202

      [SPEAKER_02]: So between having a lot of PR as nice but selling is something else.

      11:14.082 –> 11:20.203

      [SPEAKER_01]: So to drive the sales, it’s all about what any other jeans company fashion company would do.

      11:20.383 –> 11:25.624

      [SPEAKER_01]: It’s the style, the design, targeting the right customer, all the standard stuff.

      11:26.164 –> 11:31.205

      [SPEAKER_02]: I’m glad you say this, because it took me 10 years to think this out.

      11:31.965 –> 11:39.946

      [SPEAKER_02]: And to find together new CEO who did research and guess what, what’s the number one driver to buy pair jeans?

      11:39.986 –> 11:43.047

      [SPEAKER_02]: What is the first thing you think of when you’re

      11:44.336 –> 11:44.827

      [SPEAKER_01]: Will it fit?

      11:45.455 –> 11:45.795

      [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

      11:45.815 –> 11:46.255

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s the fit.

      11:46.595 –> 11:51.576

      [SPEAKER_02]: The second thing is the washing and the color and the softness in the material, the price, the availability.

      11:52.016 –> 11:53.096

      [SPEAKER_02]: The list is long until 14.

      11:53.236 –> 12:00.218

      [SPEAKER_02]: Number 14 is something about sustainability, which is a sad discovery, I think.

      12:00.358 –> 12:05.238

      [SPEAKER_02]: So we’ve been shouting about CO2 emission, less CO2 emission, less water use.

      12:05.318 –> 12:09.399

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s non-toxic dye, no children, the whole

      12:14.720 –> 12:31.205

      [SPEAKER_02]: And if you know that, then you have to change this message into, yeah, you get into the big world where you have the best photography, the best funnel on your website, the best you name it, everything, the best influencers, because you’re fighting with the big guys.

      12:32.260 –> 12:48.933

      [SPEAKER_01]: So, but bearing all of that in mind, this is something I’ve been pondering, certainly for the whole of this year, if not for a bit longer, which is that if you are a sustainable consumer brand, fashion, gift, food, whatever it might be, and you are

      12:49.945 –> 12:55.808

      [SPEAKER_01]: you have become a B-Corp, you know, you’ve got all the good criteria, you’re really doing it, you’re not definitely not greenwashing.

      12:56.428 –> 13:03.072

      [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like the sustainability message, almost its place is post-purchase.

      13:04.212 –> 13:08.855

      [SPEAKER_01]: In educating the customer and making them feel warmer about the brands, they’ll come back again.

      13:09.255 –> 13:12.797

      [SPEAKER_01]: But like pre-purchase, it’s all about all the standard stuff.

      13:13.037 –> 13:23.259

      [SPEAKER_01]: that the consumer wants, then afterwards you kind of go, and by the way, this is really awesome because all these additional things is that how you treat the message.

      13:23.962 –> 13:27.345

      [SPEAKER_02]: Yes and no, we’ve divided the customers in four groups.

      13:27.866 –> 13:32.150

      [SPEAKER_02]: The dark green ones, so the dark green is a small part of the population.

      13:32.230 –> 13:34.352

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s about five or six percent in Holland and Germany.

      13:34.912 –> 13:35.753

      [SPEAKER_02]: Germany is a little bit more.

      13:36.294 –> 13:44.381

      [SPEAKER_02]: And those are the ones that buy pair of mud jeans and they say, doesn’t really fit well, maybe, or something, but I’ll keep it anyhow because it’s a pair of mud jeans.

      13:45.518 –> 13:47.200

      [SPEAKER_02]: then you get the live green customers.

      13:47.861 –> 13:56.493

      [SPEAKER_02]: Those are the customers that have been on holiday in Spain and so cars drifting down the road and thought to themselves, you know, something’s going wrong.

      13:56.593 –> 14:00.498

      [SPEAKER_02]: I might have to change my behavior a little bit and they start looking for

      14:01.379 –> 14:17.504

      [SPEAKER_02]: easy things to change and to be more sustainable or more more cultures, and then of course there’s the like gray customer, be doesn’t care less, and the dark gray customer is against everything, it’s climate change is a hoax.

      14:18.124 –> 14:22.305

      [SPEAKER_02]: So we are now the dark green customers are friends, they like

      14:24.826 –> 14:26.707

      [SPEAKER_02]: they were always buying my jeans and nothing else.

      14:26.907 –> 14:32.248

      [SPEAKER_02]: And then the line cream customers we are targeting now because it’s a much larger group, larger group.

      14:32.889 –> 14:47.313

      [SPEAKER_02]: They are like you say they we want to catch them by really making the best jeans and they’ll find out from hey these guys are really doing everything they take every box and I can be proud wearing those jeans and and talk about it to my friends.

      14:48.073 –> 14:49.754

      [SPEAKER_02]: So that’s more or less what we try to do.

      14:50.328 –> 14:56.236

      [SPEAKER_01]: That makes so much sense, and I love the fact you’ve colour coded your customer segments because it makes so much.

      14:56.316 –> 15:00.341

      [SPEAKER_01]: As soon as you said the dark green ones, I know what the dark green ones are, I know who they are.

      15:01.243 –> 15:07.791

      [SPEAKER_01]: So if, if as ecommerce businesses, we’re not going to change consumer behavior through our marketing.

      15:08.612 –> 15:17.036

      [SPEAKER_01]: How do we go about fixing the vast horrendous problem that is the e-commerce industry, and it’s effect on the planet?

      15:17.316 –> 15:22.699

      [SPEAKER_01]: Because it’s not, I mean, fashion is pretty horrendous, but the whole industry has a part playing in fixing things.

      15:22.899 –> 15:23.940

      [SPEAKER_01]: How do we do that?

      15:24.940 –> 15:39.051

      [SPEAKER_02]: We first have to find out what’s really happening, and sadly, when I started, I wanted to count a fast session, you know, the H&M’s and the Zara’s, and say, guys, this can be done better, and you don’t need to make 52 collections each year.

      15:39.071 –> 15:47.357

      [SPEAKER_02]: And when I started, we made a winter collection and a summer collection, and I sort of could understand that, and then this smart guy came up with

      15:52.961 –> 16:11.527

      [SPEAKER_02]: the fast fashion companies, but we have a bigger problem that’s the super fast fashion, like Shine and Taimu Day, they just did a brilliant job by finding out with IT and AI to see what’s happening on socials, what people like and put it three days later in their store.

      16:12.407 –> 16:33.122

      [SPEAKER_02]: and making it a horrible way, and that’s really what’s happening today, and I don’t know how to counter that because they’re just too strong, and we don’t charge any income juts, we don’t charge TVA, even in Europe there’s a lot that when a package comes in, that you have to deliver it as a spouse, NL or whatever.

      16:34.243 –> 16:52.512

      [SPEAKER_02]: So we are killing our own industry at the moment and we’re also killing our own economy because this is money that just goes out of our economy and never comes back, you know, those people are not hiring people in Holland, they’re not paying tax and not paying social charges, they’re not paying nothing.

      16:53.192 –> 16:58.235

      [SPEAKER_02]: I saw an interview with a Greek old minister of finance, he explains his very well.

      16:59.235 –> 17:05.281

      [SPEAKER_02]: how this money extracted from our economies and is really very bad for us.

      17:06.182 –> 17:08.485

      [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s a sad answer, I’m afraid.

      17:08.965 –> 17:09.446

      [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t know.

      17:09.606 –> 17:10.607

      [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t know how to count it.

      17:10.647 –> 17:13.810

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s because we can never beat them on being better IT.

      17:13.830 –> 17:15.352

      [SPEAKER_02]: You have to become an IT company.

      17:15.412 –> 17:18.495

      [SPEAKER_02]: I think if you want to be now today, good online.

      17:19.256 –> 17:20.838

      [SPEAKER_02]: Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s mine.

      17:21.498 –> 17:36.572

      [SPEAKER_01]: I think there’s plenty of tech involved, but I’m not sure any of us should be inspiring, aspiring rather to be Shane or Timo, because I think if we all try and do that, we’re just fast tracking our inevitable demise.

      17:36.592 –> 17:40.455

      [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, here in the UK, I mean, there are many reasons I detect Brexit.

      17:40.855 –> 17:44.639

      [SPEAKER_01]: One of the ones, emotionally that I detect, is that the EU are

      17:46.200 –> 18:01.965

      [SPEAKER_01]: I would say probably one of the top governments in the world leading the charge on legislation to change such things, which obviously because of the size of the economy that’s impacting on how businesses all around the world are having to behave.

      18:02.555 –> 18:10.640

      [SPEAKER_02]: True, there are some good laws coming in, like the EPR, that extended producer responsibility, which is in place now since, I think, the first of January.

      18:11.280 –> 18:19.726

      [SPEAKER_02]: The ESPR, the CSRD, those are all very well-thought legislations that are taking place now, which is good, I agree.

      18:20.226 –> 18:23.608

      [SPEAKER_02]: But I hope that they will be making the impact that we hope for.

      18:26.625 –> 18:31.367

      [SPEAKER_00]: Ecommerce Masterplan is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the Ecommerce sector.

      18:31.507 –> 18:32.928

      [SPEAKER_00]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

      18:44.367 –> 18:52.852

      [SPEAKER_01]: I love this section because it gives me and I’ll list us some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level, but I am fascinated to hear your top tip, so are you ready for this?

      18:53.672 –> 18:53.872

      [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

      18:54.213 –> 18:54.513

      [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

      18:55.413 –> 19:03.278

      [SPEAKER_01]: The book top tip, if everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

      19:04.092 –> 19:06.393

      [SPEAKER_02]: Well, your listeners are very fast readers.

      19:06.613 –> 19:08.053

      [SPEAKER_02]: So I’ve got two tips for them.

      19:08.733 –> 19:10.734

      [SPEAKER_02]: One is called abundance.

      19:11.074 –> 19:12.074

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s an old book already.

      19:12.334 –> 19:18.416

      [SPEAKER_02]: From the amount is, he writes about that there’s enough for everything and for everyone.

      19:19.076 –> 19:20.976

      [SPEAKER_02]: We just have to get smarter using it.

      19:21.056 –> 19:23.577

      [SPEAKER_02]: And then for me, the circular economy is one of the things.

      19:24.544 –> 19:28.969

      [SPEAKER_02]: which your famous writer actually, the download the economy also writes about.

      19:29.410 –> 19:30.291

      [SPEAKER_02]: But that’s one of them.

      19:30.311 –> 19:34.215

      [SPEAKER_02]: And the second one is, good is the new cool from of Dell Aziz.

      19:34.716 –> 19:37.118

      [SPEAKER_02]: And he explains that companies that have no purpose.

      19:38.259 –> 19:44.361

      [SPEAKER_02]: And are only there to make as much as possible profit for the shareholders are not going to exist anymore.

      19:44.741 –> 20:01.866

      [SPEAKER_02]: He believes and he explains it well that a company has to have a purpose and a well-thought plan to not only make as much possible money but also as a purpose as something to do better for the world.

      20:07.220 –> 20:15.203

      [SPEAKER_01]: Nice, I like the sound of both of those, are the traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either price above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves?

      20:15.943 –> 20:17.224

      [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for us it’s very simple.

      20:17.484 –> 20:18.884

      [SPEAKER_02]: We’ve been working hard on that.

      20:19.364 –> 20:20.285

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s our newsletter.

      20:20.805 –> 20:26.747

      [SPEAKER_02]: We’ve got now around 60 or 70,000 subscribers and they react really very well on what we say.

      20:27.950 –> 20:34.633

      [SPEAKER_02]: You see immediately opening rates and hitting rates going through the roof when we send out a newsletter.

      20:35.434 –> 20:37.855

      [SPEAKER_02]: The thing is now that, of course, we have to be careful with them.

      20:38.015 –> 20:39.555

      [SPEAKER_02]: We don’t want them to unsubscribe.

      20:39.896 –> 20:47.939

      [SPEAKER_02]: So there’s a very thin line between how many newspapers are sent and what your momentum is on that.

      20:48.239 –> 20:51.261

      [SPEAKER_02]: Because if you do too many, it’s going to work against you.

      20:52.115 –> 21:02.022

      [SPEAKER_01]: It’s always the the challenging thing with email is not get a greedy because greedy brings short term results but really decimates you long term.

      21:02.182 –> 21:04.364

      [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it’s something sometimes to be with that.

      21:04.804 –> 21:05.585

      [SPEAKER_01]: Very tempting.

      21:06.065 –> 21:16.353

      [SPEAKER_01]: The tall top tip, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plugin, a phone app or just a way of working, is the recall little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day.

      21:16.873 –> 21:22.918

      [SPEAKER_02]: There’s so many tools, but today we’ve just spoken to which I want to highlight because I really like their idea.

      21:22.978 –> 21:29.284

      [SPEAKER_02]: We’ve been speaking to NINYES and NINYES is a company from Finland, also based in Berlin.

      21:30.165 –> 21:37.371

      [SPEAKER_02]: And we had this problem because we do lazy genes and after the release or after also normal client clients send back their old genes.

      21:38.012 –> 21:40.574

      [SPEAKER_02]: And we have actually two categories coming back.

      21:40.854 –> 21:41.074

      [SPEAKER_02]: One is

      21:41.775 –> 21:43.996

      [SPEAKER_02]: They’re totally gone, there’s nothing to do anymore.

      21:44.036 –> 21:46.458

      [SPEAKER_02]: And we throw them into the bin for recycling.

      21:46.998 –> 21:49.179

      [SPEAKER_02]: But of course, we try to follow the R letter.

      21:49.279 –> 21:51.901

      [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t know if you’re familiar with the R letter.

      21:52.381 –> 21:52.601

      [SPEAKER_02]: No.

      21:52.641 –> 21:53.362

      [SPEAKER_02]: That’s going to be good.

      21:53.462 –> 21:54.663

      [SPEAKER_02]: Well, R letter is for us.

      21:54.743 –> 21:56.363

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s like where do you start?

      21:56.424 –> 21:57.324

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s reduced.

      21:57.864 –> 22:00.986

      [SPEAKER_02]: So by less, rethink, think about what you buy.

      22:01.326 –> 22:03.488

      [SPEAKER_02]: Everything you buy is a vote for something.

      22:04.248 –> 22:10.131

      [SPEAKER_02]: refurbish, repair, re-something, and then the last one actually in the row is recycle.

      22:10.471 –> 22:15.034

      [SPEAKER_02]: So we want to be higher on our letter by selling second hand genes.

      22:15.594 –> 22:17.275

      [SPEAKER_02]: And we didn’t have a real good solution.

      22:17.355 –> 22:20.717

      [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, we can do it in our, we have one store in Amsterdam.

      22:21.517 –> 22:29.582

      [SPEAKER_02]: But these people have a very good solution, which is on the back end to complicate the system to get people back to our side, but where you can buy our second hand genes.

      22:30.602 –> 22:32.863

      [SPEAKER_02]: And we get promotion through them.

      22:33.503 –> 22:35.203

      [SPEAKER_02]: We also have a source of income.

      22:35.223 –> 22:44.605

      [SPEAKER_02]: And it leads people again to our website with the voucher to buy new pair of jeans with a heavily discounted code.

      22:45.065 –> 22:45.485

      [SPEAKER_02]: Nice.

      22:45.845 –> 22:48.466

      [SPEAKER_02]: So Nendias is for me a great company doing this.

      22:49.106 –> 22:50.186

      [SPEAKER_02]: And we’re going to start with them.

      22:50.446 –> 22:51.166

      [SPEAKER_02]: I say, it’s new.

      22:51.546 –> 22:52.467

      [SPEAKER_01]: How are we spelling that?

      22:53.227 –> 22:53.747

      [SPEAKER_01]: And I am.

      22:53.767 –> 22:54.367

      [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

      22:55.009 –> 22:55.890

      [SPEAKER_02]: Why is?

      22:56.631 –> 22:58.714

      [SPEAKER_01]: Nice, one for us all to go and have a look at.

      22:58.814 –> 23:07.646

      [SPEAKER_01]: Love to hear how you get on with that, but and then the carbon top tip, what’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

      23:08.650 –> 23:14.173

      [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, we try to use as less possible energy than we can, and our tricks for that also.

      23:14.754 –> 23:17.736

      [SPEAKER_02]: With this one part, the other part is we work together with just dig it.

      23:17.756 –> 23:19.036

      [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t know if you know them.

      23:19.056 –> 23:19.697

      [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

      23:20.437 –> 23:24.620

      [SPEAKER_02]: And they do a bunch, they dig holes in Africa.

      23:25.060 –> 23:28.863

      [SPEAKER_02]: Their slogan is, if we can heat up the planet, we can also cool it down.

      23:29.970 –> 23:37.573

      [SPEAKER_02]: And by making the soil green again, and by getting leaves and trees again, it changes everything.

      23:38.613 –> 23:45.876

      [SPEAKER_02]: So for every old genes returned, we planted tree or dig a bunch together with just dig it.

      23:46.416 –> 23:48.937

      [SPEAKER_02]: You can visit our website to see how they work.

      23:49.400 –> 23:49.920

      [SPEAKER_01]: very cool.

      23:50.041 –> 23:52.563

      [SPEAKER_01]: I haven’t heard of them, so I will go and check them out after this.

      23:52.603 –> 23:55.005

      [SPEAKER_01]: That was just digger and then brilliant.

      23:55.665 –> 23:58.648

      [SPEAKER_01]: But it has been fascinating chatting with you.

      23:58.768 –> 24:05.174

      [SPEAKER_01]: Before we say goodbye, could you please let listeners know where they can find you and mud jeans if they want to go and check out your products?

      24:05.774 –> 24:07.274

      [SPEAKER_02]: This one store in London sells 169B.

      24:07.395 –> 24:12.556

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s a small store, but they’re really a great partner of ours.

      24:13.476 –> 24:20.938

      [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, online you can order your jeans and I would like to give to you listeners the discount code to get them really into my jeans.

      24:21.519 –> 24:22.959

      [SPEAKER_02]: So that’s walk the talk.

      24:23.259 –> 24:25.800

      [SPEAKER_02]: I hope you can put that in the chat also for them.

      24:26.478 –> 24:28.520

      [SPEAKER_01]: We will add walk the talk there for them.

      24:28.540 –> 24:31.422

      [SPEAKER_01]: What does the walk the talk code get them?

      24:31.862 –> 24:38.508

      [SPEAKER_02]: 20% and if you go to Amsterdam, you would do me great favor if you go, visit our store, we’re very proud.

      24:38.968 –> 24:42.771

      [SPEAKER_02]: We have all sizes, all models, all colors there.

      24:43.112 –> 24:44.853

      [SPEAKER_02]: So the choice is enormous.

      24:45.834 –> 24:51.379

      [SPEAKER_02]: And I’m definitely sure that you will find your best teens ever in our store.

      24:51.779 –> 24:52.880

      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s in the center of Amsterdam.

      24:53.688 –> 24:54.068

      [SPEAKER_01]: Brilliant.

      24:54.328 –> 24:58.070

      [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for that, but, and thank you so much for being on the podcast.

      24:58.170 –> 24:59.751

      [SPEAKER_01]: It’s been brilliant chatting with you.

      25:00.292 –> 25:02.873

      [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, and thank you for having us.

      25:09.026 –> 25:19.636

      [SPEAKER_01]: how fascinating to chat about their, um, and love is almost brutal honesty with my question about, you know, does the sustainability help you at Cosmos, no Chloe?

      25:19.696 –> 25:22.238

      [SPEAKER_01]: Stop asking the question, it’s just a straight forward, no, love that.

      25:22.338 –> 25:25.120

      [SPEAKER_01]: And I really do love their, their colour coded.

      25:25.901 –> 25:27.142

      [SPEAKER_01]: customer segmentation.

      25:27.222 –> 25:29.704

      [SPEAKER_01]: And it’s super simple segmentation isn’t it?

      25:29.724 –> 25:35.729

      [SPEAKER_01]: Because we all we’ll get in our in a not in a twist about trying to work out our personas.

      25:35.809 –> 25:40.352

      [SPEAKER_01]: But you hear the ones he’d ran us through, you know, dark green to dark gray.

      25:40.432 –> 25:43.655

      [SPEAKER_01]: And so well, obviously that makes complete sense for their business.

      25:43.795 –> 25:52.402

      [SPEAKER_01]: It’s super simple, super easy to identify and clearly makes their lives really straightforward and understanding who they’re talking to at any given moment.

      25:53.122 –> 25:59.248

      [SPEAKER_01]: And increasingly important as we move more and more into a world where the message is the identifier.

      25:59.288 –> 26:03.892

      [SPEAKER_01]: The message is the differentiator between audiences as well as responses.

      26:03.912 –> 26:14.822

      [SPEAKER_01]: All right, before I go from one about that, you can get your hands on the notes from this episode, including the top tips and links to what we mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterplan.com.

      26:15.242 –> 26:25.572

      [SPEAKER_01]: You can also use our direct-to-episode short-links, just put ECMP.info4sash the number of this episode into the URL bar, and you’ll be redirected straight to the right episode page.

      26:26.173 –> 26:30.617

      [SPEAKER_01]: Once you get to the website, you can also add yourself to our main email mailing list, even.

      26:31.038 –> 26:34.942

      [SPEAKER_01]: So you don’t miss out on any of the other things we share to help you improve your business.

      26:35.522 –> 26:48.192

      [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if you like this episode, then have a listen to episode 392, where I’m chatting with another circular, focused, inspiring, founder, Kressy Wesleying from Elvis and Kressy.

      26:48.993 –> 26:53.036

      [SPEAKER_01]: An absolutely definite pair to this episode, so go and have a listen to that.

      26:53.076 –> 27:03.264

      [SPEAKER_01]: And if you want more from B-Corp’s, then head to ECMP.info forward slash B-Corp, that short link will take you straight to a full list of all our B-Corp episodes on the website.

      27:03.724 –> 27:08.326

      [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning to this and every episode that you do of the e-commerce master plan podcast.

      27:08.726 –> 27:19.550

      [SPEAKER_01]: I bring you a new one every week because I want to inspire and help e-commerce business owners to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including working out how sustainability fits into your business.

      27:19.970 –> 27:25.252

      [SPEAKER_01]: So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast.

      27:25.612 –> 27:28.233

      [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

      27:31.465 –> 27:34.769

      [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the e-commerce Master Plan podcast.

      27:35.230 –> 27:40.016

      [SPEAKER_00]: Find out more at e-commercemasterplanned.com Slash podcast.

      28 min
    • eCommerce MasterPlan | 566: What Would You Do if growth at your eCommerce brand has stalled? – with Janis Thomas

      Janis Thomas is an eCommerce & Subscriptions Expert, recently named in the Top 100 UK Marketing Influencers list. 

       

      In this episode of the special WWYD? (What Would You Do?) series, Janis answers the big question: 

      What would you do as a Head of eCommerce tasked with massively improving operational efficiency — especially when growth at your brand has stalled? 

       

      Hit PLAY to hear: 

       

      • Why stalled growth is actually a wake-up call for your eCommerce brand 
      • The ruthless audit every Head of eCom should do on costs, teams & tech 
      • Quick wins that free up cash and time to spark new growth 
      • How to stop wasting hours on admin & turn time into your secret weapon 
      • The smart way to use AI for creative output (without losing your brand DNA) 
      • Why an inspiring vision — not cost-cutting fear — gets teams on board with change 

        •  

        Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

        [04:42] Streamline and Audit for Growth 

        [07:19] Evolving Design and Business Practices 

         

        [12:31] Strategic Prioritization for Quick Impact 

        [15:46] Experimentation Drives Business Improvement 

        [19:18] Team Meetings: Encouraging Experiments 

        [22:28] Focus on Brand Consistency 

        [26:22] AI Design Needs Specificity 

        [28:17] Listen to Janis’ Top Tips! 

         

        Full episode notes here: https://ecmp.info/566

        —

        Download our ebook… https://ecmp.info/ebook 500 Tips to Increase Your Profits

        Get all the links and resources we mention and join our email list at https://ecmp.info

        Love the show? Chloe would love your feedback – leave a review here: https://ecmp.info/review or reply to the episode QandA on Spotify.

        Interested in being a Sponsor? go here: https://ecmp.info/sponsor

        Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

        Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

        WEBVTT

        00:00.611 –> 00:12.738

        [SPEAKER_02]: Right now, every business should be ripping it down to the tax and saying, okay, what should our team look like, what skills do we need to have?

        00:13.038 –> 00:14.899

        [SPEAKER_02]: What should our tech look like?

        00:14.939 –> 00:21.142

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think doing that audit on your costs, what are you spending and on what should you be spending?

        00:21.162 –> 00:26.825

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think looking at the ROI of your different channels and what does it cost you

        00:32.193 –> 00:34.576

        [SPEAKER_00]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

        00:35.217 –> 00:39.203

        [SPEAKER_00]: It is a help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

        00:39.724 –> 00:47.515

        [SPEAKER_00]: Cutting through the hive to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

        00:50.845 –> 00:51.945

        [SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.

        00:51.985 –> 00:53.086

        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s great to have you here.

        00:53.166 –> 00:56.987

        [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

        00:57.467 –> 01:09.272

        [SPEAKER_01]: This is the second of our new format the WWYD episode unique in that WWYD takes longer to say than what would you do it it’s short for.

        01:09.592 –> 01:17.641

        [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, these are the episodes where we invite one of our favourite people in e-commerce onto the show to share what they would do in a given situation.

        01:18.102 –> 01:26.491

        [SPEAKER_01]: This time we’ve got regular guest Janice Thomas, no relation, back on the show to answer what would you do if growth at your e-commerce brand has stalled?

        01:27.212 –> 01:30.515

        [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, big question, big one to be tackling.

        01:30.715 –> 01:31.636

        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s a great topic.

        01:31.776 –> 01:34.118

        [SPEAKER_01]: We are going to be getting into so much stuff.

        01:34.618 –> 01:42.284

        [SPEAKER_01]: Cost savings, prioritization, goal setting, team management culture will also be talking about marketing channels.

        01:42.905 –> 01:45.227

        [SPEAKER_01]: And those of you who know Janice will know she’s been

        01:45.978 –> 01:51.805

        [SPEAKER_01]: pretty much of the forefront of adopting AI within an e-commerce business, so I’ll also be asking her about that as well.

        01:52.225 –> 01:59.113

        [SPEAKER_01]: So make sure you listen to the end of the episode so you don’t miss any of it, plus so you get to listen to Janice’s top tips too.

        02:05.101 –> 02:07.142

        [SPEAKER_01]: And now to introduce our special guest.

        02:07.522 –> 02:15.624

        [SPEAKER_01]: Janis Thomas is an e-commerce and subscriptions expert, recently named in the top 100 UK marketing influences list.

        02:15.924 –> 02:16.804

        [SPEAKER_01]: Hello Janis.

        02:17.324 –> 02:18.105

        [SPEAKER_01]: Hello Chloe.

        02:18.565 –> 02:23.146

        [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome to have you back on the show, especially for our new format, what would you do?

        02:23.186 –> 02:28.267

        [SPEAKER_01]: Which we will get into very shortly, but first of all, how have things been since we last called up, because it’s been a couple of months?

        02:29.028 –> 02:33.829

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s been good, there is a lot of change going on, which I think is what we’re going to be talking about today.

        02:34.551 –> 02:35.552

        [SPEAKER_01]: it is indeed.

        02:35.633 –> 02:38.777

        [SPEAKER_01]: So let’s I’ll take that cue from you and let’s get straight into it.

        02:38.817 –> 02:41.000

        [SPEAKER_01]: So the what would you do you suggest it was?

        02:41.580 –> 02:45.105

        [SPEAKER_01]: If growth at your e-commerce brand has stored what would you do?

        02:45.165 –> 02:48.470

        [SPEAKER_01]: So why did you pick this as your what would you do?

        02:49.730 –> 02:54.094

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think we’re just in this period of change.

        02:54.194 –> 03:00.721

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think particularly with AI coming in, we need to revisit our processes.

        03:01.541 –> 03:10.029

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think for Ecommerce brands in particular, there’s a lot of people who scaled and invested in certain things.

        03:11.110 –> 03:20.055

        [SPEAKER_02]: on the back of COVID and they had this massive growth and they invested thinking that growth was going to continue and in a lot of cases it hasn’t.

        03:20.536 –> 03:24.958

        [SPEAKER_02]: So we’ve ended up with organizations that aren’t fit for purpose.

        03:25.459 –> 03:30.562

        [SPEAKER_02]: So I really wanted to say, look, if you’re in this position, what do you do?

        03:31.751 –> 03:51.655

        [SPEAKER_01]: Because we, organizations got a bit bloated with that fast, some wrong decisions about things to add into the tech stack, team members to add outlets to add potentially as well, and then channels to add, and then we’re always worse at saying no and cutting out and cutting back than we should be.

        03:51.755 –> 03:55.716

        [SPEAKER_01]: So good decisions at the time, bad decisions at the time, but we’re left with that hangover now.

        03:56.256 –> 03:56.836

        [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

        03:57.616 –> 04:09.779

        [SPEAKER_01]: So, any criteria to this is this advice, you know, is this what were you doing a particularly large brand, particularly small brand and multi channel brands, specific product sets, or is this relevant to anybody in the e-commerce space?

        04:10.579 –> 04:13.920

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think there’s elements of this that’s relevant to everyone.

        04:14.200 –> 04:20.141

        [SPEAKER_02]: Like you might have the perfect team and skill set, but you might have a bloated text stack.

        04:20.461 –> 04:25.503

        [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think there are different elements and different lenses that you could apply

        04:27.843 –> 04:30.064

        [SPEAKER_01]: Cool, because this is going to be looking at everything, isn’t it?

        04:30.104 –> 04:33.644

        [SPEAKER_01]: This isn’t a, your growth has stalled, sort of at your Facebook ads.

        04:33.704 –> 04:34.885

        [SPEAKER_01]: We’re going a bit deeper than that.

        04:35.245 –> 04:36.845

        [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

        04:36.865 –> 04:40.906

        [SPEAKER_01]: OK, so then, what would you do if growth that you’re e-commerce brand has stalled?

        04:40.926 –> 04:41.706

        [SPEAKER_01]: Where do you start?

        04:42.306 –> 04:50.508

        [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think, particularly if you’ve got to that point and you’ve plateaued, chances are you’ve tried the easy things.

        04:50.848 –> 04:52.869

        [SPEAKER_02]: You’ve tried iterating.

        04:53.909 –> 04:56.630

        [SPEAKER_02]: And if you’ve got to the point where you’re stuck,

        04:57.650 –> 05:00.691

        [SPEAKER_02]: getting unstuck is going to be painful.

        05:01.011 –> 05:12.693

        [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that’s the first thing to acknowledge that this is going to hurt to become unstuck and you’re probably almost going to have to go backwards a little bit to go forwards.

        05:13.193 –> 05:16.134

        [SPEAKER_02]: But if you invest that time now, you’re going to be able

        05:21.015 –> 05:31.681

        [SPEAKER_02]: right now, every business should be going, like, ripping it down to the tax and saying, okay, what should our team look like?

        05:31.821 –> 05:35.003

        [SPEAKER_02]: What skills do we need to have?

        05:35.784 –> 05:37.585

        [SPEAKER_02]: What should our tech look like?

        05:40.086 –> 05:44.149

        [SPEAKER_02]: while I’ve typically worked on Magento sites.

        05:44.389 –> 05:48.932

        [SPEAKER_02]: I know a lot of people on Shopify because of you got that app environment.

        05:48.992 –> 05:56.176

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s really easy to like add this app and add that app and I liken it to an all websites, not just Shopify.

        05:56.536 –> 05:58.958

        [SPEAKER_02]: It becomes like an over-stuffed handbag.

        05:59.538 –> 06:20.353

        [SPEAKER_02]: you kind of have to tip it out and start all again and I think that’s the philosophy the organizations need to go through from both a team and a tech perspective is like what do we actually lead and I think doing that audit on your costs where what are you spending and on what should you be spending and I think

        06:20.953 –> 06:28.338

        [SPEAKER_02]: looking at the ROI of your different channels and what does it cost you to maintain those channels?

        06:28.398 –> 06:42.288

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think particularly with the changes in meta and Google that you need a lot more assets, you not need a lot more data and some things is like, what is this actually bringing

        06:45.950 –> 07:04.537

        [SPEAKER_02]: I’m not saying, you know, switch off if you’ve got your spending millions of pounds of year on PVC, but you know, if you’re only spending a few grand a month then why not pause it for a few months and see what happens is it actually bringing the incremental utility that you think it is and I think

        07:05.337 –> 07:14.103

        [SPEAKER_02]: that is the main thing is like do you know what you really have to have a hard lens and say what do you need?

        07:14.644 –> 07:22.829

        [SPEAKER_02]: And you look at the team skills in particular, like you think of design, like you used to

        07:23.890 –> 07:28.372

        [SPEAKER_02]: put a brief out to a number of agencies they would come and pitch.

        07:28.432 –> 07:38.216

        [SPEAKER_02]: There would be this big creative idea that would then run for months or even years and we just don’t work in that environment anymore.

        07:38.677 –> 07:40.537

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s, you know, experiment.

        07:40.617 –> 07:41.698

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s try things.

        07:41.858 –> 07:43.679

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s do it quick and dirty.

        07:44.039 –> 07:48.321

        [SPEAKER_02]: And do you have people who are able to do that?

        07:48.761 –> 07:50.302

        [SPEAKER_02]: The same with, you know,

        07:51.062 –> 07:56.684

        [SPEAKER_02]: processes and analysis and reporting and things like that, what happens to these things?

        07:56.944 –> 08:01.625

        [SPEAKER_02]: Are these reports being used to actually drive decisions?

        08:02.025 –> 08:05.927

        [SPEAKER_02]: Is that useful to people in their day to day job?

        08:06.567 –> 08:14.269

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s a hard lens to put things through, but almost everything you do in the business, you need to be saying, should we be doing this?

        08:14.309 –> 08:16.030

        [SPEAKER_02]: Because the reason that you’ve

        08:16.550 –> 08:29.799

        [SPEAKER_02]: plateaued is you’ll keep doing the same thing in the same way the only way you’re going to get out of that cycle is to say stop should we do be doing this what should we be doing?

        08:29.839 –> 08:40.087

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think if you can slim things down there’s a temptation to spend as much as you can to break even presuming that you know

        08:40.667 –> 08:45.848

        [SPEAKER_02]: free, easy investment is not on the table as in the way it was pre-COVID.

        08:46.508 –> 08:49.829

        [SPEAKER_02]: You’ve got to fund from your existing business.

        08:49.869 –> 08:58.850

        [SPEAKER_02]: So if you’re just ticking on or around the breakeven point, it’s very difficult to take bigger risks and make bigger investments.

        08:59.190 –> 09:06.271

        [SPEAKER_02]: You all have to bring your cost based down a bit so that you’ve got a decent amount of cash in the bank to play around

        09:10.193 –> 09:12.497

        [SPEAKER_02]: otherwise you’re going to be stuck in the cycle of doing the same thing.

        09:13.800 –> 09:16.241

        [SPEAKER_01]: loads of juicy stuff for us to get into their journalist.

        09:16.601 –> 09:24.425

        [SPEAKER_01]: First, one for me would be, you know, this is kind of like the polar opposite of what I end every of one of these episodes with words keep optimizing.

        09:24.465 –> 09:26.165

        [SPEAKER_01]: We’re not doing little optimizations.

        09:26.265 –> 09:29.927

        [SPEAKER_01]: We are, I guess almost going back to kind of like zero based accounting.

        09:30.147 –> 09:33.188

        [SPEAKER_01]: You’re ripping, you’re starting blank sheet of paper, aren’t you?

        09:33.208 –> 09:42.873

        [SPEAKER_01]: And gang, actually, for what we know about our customers and what we know about what’s working at the moment, what do we actually need, ripping it down and building it back up again?

        09:44.033 –> 09:44.694

        [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

        09:45.354 –> 09:56.020

        [SPEAKER_01]: And then timing wise, this one, everyone, you’re hearing this at the end of October, which may seem like exactly the time you don’t want to start doing this.

        09:56.781 –> 10:03.705

        [SPEAKER_01]: But many a retail, I know, most of you have, you know, almost calendar year, financial years on the go.

        10:04.465 –> 10:10.873

        [SPEAKER_01]: And you’re kind of committed to what’s going to happen for the next two months, but January is a wide open field of opportunity.

        10:10.913 –> 10:13.156

        [SPEAKER_01]: So actually, sorry, everybody.

        10:13.597 –> 10:15.539

        [SPEAKER_01]: Now is the time to be plotting, isn’t it?

        10:15.660 –> 10:17.101

        [SPEAKER_01]: I would say Janice, would you agree?

        10:17.682 –> 10:20.326

        [SPEAKER_01]: November December are a good time to start working on this.

        10:20.942 –> 10:21.502

        [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

        10:21.522 –> 10:35.793

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think that November, in December, you’ve got such high expectations of what will happen that actually taking a really hard lens on, well, if it didn’t happen, why didn’t it happen?

        10:35.813 –> 10:38.455

        [SPEAKER_02]: And what could we have done differently?

        10:38.495 –> 10:40.777

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s almost the perfect opportunity.

        10:41.557 –> 10:54.580

        [SPEAKER_02]: to put that hard lens in place and make those difficult decisions because if you didn’t, if you don’t have an amazing November and December, it’s only going to get worse into next year.

        10:54.900 –> 10:57.581

        [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe you did have a strong November and December.

        10:57.961 –> 10:58.961

        [SPEAKER_02]: What can you learn?

        10:59.041 –> 10:59.722

        [SPEAKER_02]: What did you do?

        10:59.742 –> 11:05.603

        [SPEAKER_02]: Because you probably, if you did have a strong November and December, you probably have to be agile.

        11:05.903 –> 11:13.529

        [SPEAKER_02]: You probably had to change your plan the what you had in place and you were involved to take advantage of opportunities as they came along.

        11:13.910 –> 11:14.790

        [SPEAKER_02]: How did you do it?

        11:14.890 –> 11:24.238

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think that’s the other thing that so many organisations in Covid were able to make those difficult decisions.

        11:24.618 –> 11:31.504

        [SPEAKER_02]: And did almost go back to that blank sheet of paper and say what staff do we need, you know, what should we be doing?

        11:31.584 –> 11:32.585

        [SPEAKER_02]: Where’s the focus?

        11:33.325 –> 11:41.071

        [SPEAKER_02]: and going back to that COVID mindset again, how did we do that and almost doing that again?

        11:41.091 –> 11:48.837

        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s like it was exhausting, but it was hugely creative and innovative time for many businesses, everything changed.

        11:49.398 –> 11:51.640

        [SPEAKER_01]: Crazy fast, uncomfortably fast, but

        11:52.635 –> 11:59.245

        [SPEAKER_01]: We reacted up, now we need to not react down, but react back in line with where we should be.

        11:59.926 –> 12:08.218

        [SPEAKER_01]: You’ve talked about cutting costs in order to have better cash flow and you’ve talked about optimizing marketing channels.

        12:08.959 –> 12:16.285

        [SPEAKER_01]: Can you do those two at the same time, or is it more, you know, we need to first of all, we need to cut back.

        12:16.926 –> 12:30.157

        [SPEAKER_01]: So then we’ve got the resources starting to come into enable us to do the new experimentations and to make the addition changes, because we’re not entirely talking about cutting back, we’re talking about adding some new stuff in as well.

        12:31.102 –> 12:31.622

        [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely.

        12:31.662 –> 12:36.025

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think a part of this process is of prioritization.

        12:36.045 –> 12:39.968

        [SPEAKER_02]: If you’re like, what is going to have the most impact the most quickly?

        12:39.988 –> 12:44.671

        [SPEAKER_02]: Because this is not going to be something you can just do in a month that it’s sorted.

        12:45.031 –> 12:51.715

        [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to be a long program of change and it’s working out where you can see the most impact quickly.

        12:51.995 –> 12:53.656

        [SPEAKER_02]: And that might be, do you know

        12:59.540 –> 13:01.221

        [SPEAKER_02]: whatever it might be.

        13:01.401 –> 13:06.563

        [SPEAKER_02]: What can we do quickly that starts to put us in that better position?

        13:06.683 –> 13:11.085

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think making people focus on the right things.

        13:11.225 –> 13:19.168

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s not necessarily like, oh, we need to cut staff, but actually our staff doing things that they shouldn’t.

        13:19.968 –> 13:20.828

        [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t add value.

        13:21.849 –> 13:27.731

        [SPEAKER_02]: Are they spending, how much time are they spending on reporting, on admin and all of those things?

        13:27.831 –> 13:36.774

        [SPEAKER_02]: By taking that layer out, it’s almost like you’ve got free staff members because you’ve automated those processes.

        13:37.214 –> 13:47.578

        [SPEAKER_02]: You then can invest their time, so that becomes time is a resource that is potentially a break-even and you can move it to

        13:49.098 –> 13:50.918

        [SPEAKER_02]: as well as actual costs.

        13:51.779 –> 13:57.900

        [SPEAKER_01]: I think in the e-commerce space or the retail head office space, this is not.

        13:58.540 –> 14:04.201

        [SPEAKER_01]: What I’m about to say has no shade to be placed on in store teams, okay?

        14:04.582 –> 14:06.442

        [SPEAKER_01]: Very much not, but this is not about in store teams.

        14:06.462 –> 14:10.323

        [SPEAKER_01]: This is about head office staff sitting at their desks in the e-commerce and retail channels.

        14:10.883 –> 14:14.524

        [SPEAKER_01]: We are horrendous in this industry at valuing time.

        14:15.324 –> 14:17.625

        [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely horrendous at it.

        14:18.446 –> 14:30.353

        [SPEAKER_01]: You just have to look at the people who are doing long-winded complicated reports every Monday, which could have been automated, but it would have cost $20 a month to buy the software that would automate it.

        14:30.953 –> 14:33.015

        [SPEAKER_01]: We are so shocking at time, aren’t we?

        14:33.075 –> 14:37.037

        [SPEAKER_01]: Would you I would go so far as to suggest everyone starts filling in time sheets?

        14:37.097 –> 14:38.037

        [SPEAKER_01]: Would you go that far,

        14:40.819 –> 14:43.299

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think it depends on the size of your organisation.

        14:43.339 –> 14:52.821

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think a big organisation you have to go through, that because that’s the only way you’re going to get enough data to make these decisions in a smaller organisation.

        14:53.161 –> 15:05.143

        [SPEAKER_02]: You can do it in a more informal brainstorming session, you know, like for example, I recently had one of my team going on maternity leave and it made us think about what does she do?

        15:05.464 –> 15:07.664

        [SPEAKER_02]: How does she spend her time?

        15:08.384 –> 15:14.529

        [SPEAKER_02]: and who should take over what and is that something we should continue to do while she’s on maternity leave?

        15:15.329 –> 15:16.770

        [SPEAKER_01]: Which it’s interesting, isn’t it?

        15:16.830 –> 15:21.814

        [SPEAKER_01]: Like a lot of this, you talked about the need for prioritisation, but also the need to make fast changes.

        15:22.394 –> 15:28.799

        [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so ideally we gather all the data, way up all the opportunities, and then do a lovely big old project plan.

        15:28.819 –> 15:31.741

        [SPEAKER_01]: But you’ve got to be fast, and you’ve got to be data-focused.

        15:31.761 –> 15:36.264

        [SPEAKER_01]: There’s kind of like, there’s an element that has to be done initially on gut feel.

        15:37.025 –> 15:41.013

        [SPEAKER_01]: but then there’s also a big old element of data gather and analysis.

        15:41.033 –> 15:45.001

        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s like two competing methods but both in the same project in some ways.

        15:45.101 –> 15:45.863

        [SPEAKER_01]: In my head anyway.

        15:46.393 –> 16:10.705

        [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and I think almost part of it is getting those quick wins and making the business case for that wider investment of doing it in more detail and you know in more depths and properly planned out but you’ve kind of got to experiment to find out what is going to make a difference is like oh we think by automating our reporting it’s going to free up you know

        16:11.705 –> 16:15.030

        [SPEAKER_02]: x hours a day for everyone and does it actually do that?

        16:15.470 –> 16:18.795

        [SPEAKER_02]: Does that then have the impact that we think it will on the business?

        16:19.776 –> 16:20.037

        [SPEAKER_02]: What?

        16:20.437 –> 16:24.643

        [SPEAKER_02]: And asking people, what would you do if you had the time?

        16:25.184 –> 16:27.527

        [SPEAKER_02]: Like you would be surprised at the projects?

        16:27.627 –> 16:31.989

        [SPEAKER_02]: that people want to be working on, but don’t currently have the time to do.

        16:32.009 –> 16:42.175

        [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s no good just saying, oh, we’ve saved all this time, because tasks will expand to fill the time available.

        16:42.195 –> 16:46.838

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think particularly, you know, I worked a long time in marketing in e-commerce.

        16:46.858 –> 16:49.759

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think there’s a tendency towards perfectionism.

        16:49.779 –> 16:56.183

        [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, oh, I’ve got more time to do that deck, then I’m gonna make it look even better.

        16:56.943 –> 17:00.926

        [SPEAKER_02]: If I’ve only got two hours to do the deck, then it’s going to be what it’s going to be.

        17:01.266 –> 17:09.831

        [SPEAKER_02]: So I think putting that expectation in place, not just, oh, you can save time, but what’s the project you want to work on with that free time?

        17:10.411 –> 17:11.291

        [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it’s very easy to go.

        17:11.332 –> 17:14.673

        [SPEAKER_01]: We saved a load of hours, but we haven’t actually spent the one-on-eating worthwhile.

        17:15.514 –> 17:25.119

        [SPEAKER_01]: I’d like one of the other points you made a little earlier when you were talking about prioritisation and making a quick whim, which was that you need to get everyone aligned around

        17:26.932 –> 17:39.036

        [SPEAKER_01]: which I think when you’re doing these fast moving projects and you’re asking people for their opinion and you’re asking teams to get involved, you have to have that clarity of goal, which means you kind of have to go, actually no, do you, do you, Janist?

        17:39.076 –> 17:45.559

        [SPEAKER_01]: Do you need to go more in depth with what the goal is than we need to reignite growth?

        17:45.939 –> 17:48.280

        [SPEAKER_01]: Is that good enough goal or do we need more detail?

        17:49.100 –> 18:02.507

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think you need an inspiring goal that is going to get people on board because I think the only way this works is everyone is looking everything that they do and they have to be on board with this.

        18:02.567 –> 18:07.270

        [SPEAKER_02]: They can’t be like, oh well, if I do this, you know, I’m going to be made redundant.

        18:07.290 –> 18:09.471

        [SPEAKER_02]: My job is going to be taken by AI.

        18:09.711 –> 18:11.873

        [SPEAKER_02]: You’re never going to get anyone on board with that.

        18:12.733 –> 18:19.935

        [SPEAKER_02]: But if you say we want to build the company of the future, this is a vision of what our company is going to be.

        18:20.295 –> 18:22.135

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s going to be efficient.

        18:22.235 –> 18:25.776

        [SPEAKER_02]: We’re not going to waste time on admin.

        18:25.836 –> 18:31.537

        [SPEAKER_02]: We want you to focus on the things that you’re good at and that you enjoy and all of these things.

        18:31.597 –> 18:38.359

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think you need an inspiring vision for people to buy into rather than just we want to make

        18:42.900 –> 18:48.702

        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s not, we need to cut 20% of costs because that’s enough to send fear through everybody.

        18:49.342 –> 18:56.944

        [SPEAKER_01]: So given that, this is also something you’re not going to kick off amongst the, you know, within the business with an email is it.

        18:57.004 –> 19:03.005

        [SPEAKER_01]: So would you do an hour long tea meeting, doing away day, half a day, something with pizza?

        19:03.225 –> 19:07.527

        [SPEAKER_01]: How would you launch this to get the best

        19:09.267 –> 19:17.887

        [SPEAKER_01]: understanding from the team so they’re not ten minutes later standing by the water cooler going well they’re going to make us all redundant on that which is the worst outcome you can end up with.

        19:18.573 –> 19:30.736

        [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I’m a big believer in regular team meetings and one of the things I like to do at regular team meetings is set people with a challenge.

        19:31.356 –> 19:41.498

        [SPEAKER_02]: It might be go experiment with AI this month and come back and share what you’ve learned, what you tried, what worked, what didn’t work, it might be we want to improve our

        19:41.838 –> 19:49.219

        [SPEAKER_02]: product pages, go find examples of brands that you like that think do the product page well, why do they do that?

        19:49.259 –> 20:02.702

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think breaking this down into bite size challenges that everyone can go away and come with their own opinions and feel like those opinions are valid and listen to.

        20:03.322 –> 20:07.043

        [SPEAKER_02]: And also, you know, most organizations, why do you want to

        20:09.723 –> 20:22.937

        [SPEAKER_02]: looking at what somebody else does, when you can have that person share, what they do, how they do it, how they think that they can improve it, and that person’s going to be on board with those changes rather than someone imposing them on them.

        20:23.559 –> 20:30.846

        [SPEAKER_01]: I love that, because then you’re also creating a culture that helps deal with such problems in the past.

        20:31.146 –> 20:39.474

        [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it’s a lot easier if you’ve been doing that sort of thing already, then it’s a lot easier to embark on this than if it’s been, oh, they’re doing their sequence squirrel thing again.

        20:39.574 –> 20:42.877

        [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the bosses are doing their thing and we’ll, we won’t get told anything.

        20:43.217 –> 20:46.520

        [SPEAKER_01]: if you’re in that scenario this is an awful lot harder to do.

        20:47.081 –> 20:54.669

        [SPEAKER_01]: So would you in that example would you kind of drip feed it to the team or would you do a big reveal to kick things off?

        20:55.562 –> 21:03.204

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think that there’s good to have a big conversation, but setting people’s expectations about what sort of things you’re going to ask.

        21:03.284 –> 21:07.205

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think getting everyone involved is really useful.

        21:07.345 –> 21:11.226

        [SPEAKER_02]: For example, who in the business is using these tools?

        21:12.047 –> 21:12.927

        [SPEAKER_02]: Are you using it?

        21:13.047 –> 21:14.667

        [SPEAKER_02]: Are you dependent on it?

        21:15.508 –> 21:23.730

        [SPEAKER_02]: All of these things that you’ve ended up that you’ve subscribed to with ongoing recurring billing and who is actually using them?

        21:24.250 –> 21:30.937

        [SPEAKER_02]: and how many people are using them and how much are they using them and is this the best tool for what they’re using it for.

        21:30.957 –> 21:36.762

        [SPEAKER_02]: So only three people find it really useful is there’s something else that those three people could be used.

        21:36.982 –> 21:40.886

        [SPEAKER_02]: If everyone uses it well clearly this is the tool that we should be investing in.

        21:42.131 –> 21:43.931

        [SPEAKER_01]: a user account amnesty.

        21:45.532 –> 21:48.552

        [SPEAKER_01]: I’m sure that would save everybody a lot of money.

        21:49.232 –> 21:50.613

        [SPEAKER_01]: Not a bad one to do week one.

        21:51.133 –> 22:02.375

        [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I’ve done that with recurring costs as well, so everyone in the marketing team down and be like, what is this cost and line by line?

        22:02.675 –> 22:07.956

        [SPEAKER_02]: Oh no, that was that software that we signed up for for that project three years ago and we’re still paying for.

        22:08.396 –> 22:11.957

        [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or Lindsay, who left three years ago was to do with that one.

        22:12.397 –> 22:12.577

        [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

        22:12.637 –> 22:12.837

        [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

        22:14.017 –> 22:19.599

        [SPEAKER_01]: And then you really love the fact you have an accounts team, because they can go and chase it all down for you, work out how to cancel.

        22:20.339 –> 22:21.399

        [SPEAKER_01]: And cool.

        22:21.579 –> 22:27.681

        [SPEAKER_01]: Anything else we should do if growth at the Ecommerce brand has stored, anything else you’d add in.

        22:28.981 –> 22:38.014

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think it’s again going back to basics, like really understanding, why do you exist?

        22:38.575 –> 22:40.618

        [SPEAKER_02]: Why are you in business?

        22:41.038 –> 22:43.562

        [SPEAKER_02]: Why should customers buy your

        22:44.343 –> 22:44.943

        [SPEAKER_02]: products.

        22:45.823 –> 22:49.745

        [SPEAKER_02]: That focus, I think, helps this whole process.

        22:49.765 –> 22:54.466

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s like, well, why, you know, what do we do and what do we not do?

        22:54.746 –> 22:59.567

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the whole exercise is about focus and what should we be doing?

        22:59.627 –> 23:01.528

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think brand is a really

        23:02.348 –> 23:03.509

        [SPEAKER_02]: important part of it.

        23:03.629 –> 23:30.170

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think particularly as you are using potentially AI tools for creative development, being really clear what the brand is, who is for all of those things and having that as an input into prompts and processes and all of those things and everyone is consistent about what they’re saying and all of those things means that you’re going to get more consistent

        23:30.510 –> 23:31.030

        [SPEAKER_02]: outputs.

        23:31.070 –> 23:40.958

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that’s an exercise, even if you’re a massively growing brand that has no issues around growth, you should be doing right now is aligning.

        23:41.618 –> 23:43.960

        [SPEAKER_02]: What are you saying about your team?

        23:44.040 –> 23:47.222

        [SPEAKER_02]: What prompts are you using?

        23:47.482 –> 23:53.027

        [SPEAKER_02]: Because if you’ve got 12 different people, you know, in 10 different teams, you know, or using different

        23:53.747 –> 23:56.891

        [SPEAKER_02]: prompts, then you’re going to end up with misalignment.

        23:56.911 –> 24:04.920

        [SPEAKER_02]: So I think being really clear about what your brand is, why you exist, what you stand for, is an exercise everyone should be doing right now.

        24:05.660 –> 24:06.501

        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s interesting, isn’t it?

        24:06.521 –> 24:12.346

        [SPEAKER_01]: We seem to get involved in a lot of conversations about the moment that can be summarized as garbage in garbage out.

        24:12.466 –> 24:28.480

        [SPEAKER_01]: And usually in e-commerce, they are down to product data, which powers so much of the AI activity on product data and tracking data on ads, on emails, on the website, in geo, and all that kind of stuff.

        24:28.500 –> 24:31.022

        [SPEAKER_01]: But not so many people are talking about

        24:32.983 –> 24:42.586

        [SPEAKER_01]: In head office use of AI and the way that, as you’ve just eloquently explained, can be garbage and garbage out and you can quite quickly lose track of things.

        24:42.666 –> 24:51.488

        [SPEAKER_01]: If you don’t have that DNA or the core of things, all projects are easier if you have business DNA of this is who we serve, this is why we do it and everything else.

        24:52.268 –> 24:54.789

        [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone Janice was nodding very enthusiastically.

        24:54.809 –> 24:55.729

        [SPEAKER_01]: I know you guys can’t see it.

        24:55.749 –> 24:57.490

        [SPEAKER_01]: She’s nodding very enthusiastically by that.

        24:57.510 –> 24:59.791

        [SPEAKER_01]: So I’m not going to bother to ask it or comment on that.

        24:59.831 –> 25:00.371

        [SPEAKER_01]: Clearly agrees.

        25:00.831 –> 25:11.575

        [SPEAKER_01]: Well, now I’m going to ask you, Janice, I know you’ve been probably one of the, one of the retailers at the forefront of embracing AI and the business without doing it stupidly.

        25:11.595 –> 25:16.717

        [SPEAKER_01]: I had that caveat because there’s some who’ve gone all the way and it’s a really terrible idea.

        25:18.218 –> 25:23.243

        [SPEAKER_01]: How have you found it’s helped bring inefficiency and help build growth?

        25:23.303 –> 25:32.712

        [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess what I’m trying to say is for the benefit of the listeners, where are key places to start building it into the business, to gain success, not to gain confusion and problems?

        25:33.433 –> 25:47.932

        [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think particularly from a marketing point of view, in terms of creative outputs whether that is, you know, product page copy or press releases or add imagery or all of those things.

        25:48.793 –> 26:10.336

        [SPEAKER_02]: it can be amazing, but you have to invest in, you can’t just give it, you know, so I’ll produce an ad for this, you have to be like, well, this is our visual, you know, this is our tone of voice, this is examples of what is good and what is bad and as you say, if the product data isn’t there, then it can only build with what you’ve got.

        26:10.416 –> 26:10.796

        [SPEAKER_02]: So I think,

        26:11.517 –> 26:19.843

        [SPEAKER_02]: It is great at particularly the creative production side, but you need the foundation to underpin it otherwise.

        26:20.123 –> 26:22.545

        [SPEAKER_02]: You’re just going to get really generic stuff.

        26:22.605 –> 26:39.917

        [SPEAKER_02]: And that’s what the AI brush gets to hard with is, well, no, if you haven’t told it about your brand and your customer and your tone of voice and given examples of what does good look like and all of that stuff, if you’re not setting the tone correctly,

        26:40.718 –> 26:42.099

        [SPEAKER_02]: And then you’re not refining it.

        26:42.280 –> 26:42.880

        [SPEAKER_02]: What comes out?

        26:42.940 –> 26:46.003

        [SPEAKER_02]: You’re like, no, that’s wrong because we don’t use blue.

        26:46.444 –> 26:49.106

        [SPEAKER_02]: That’s wrong because we don’t use that language.

        26:49.227 –> 26:52.310

        [SPEAKER_02]: That’s to, you know, generic.

        26:52.550 –> 26:54.272

        [SPEAKER_02]: There’s no spark, there’s no tone to it.

        26:54.572 –> 26:56.154

        [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that needs to be more bullet points.

        26:56.414 –> 26:57.395

        [SPEAKER_02]: You need to feel…

        26:57.975 –> 26:58.956

        [SPEAKER_02]: kind of feedback.

        26:59.176 –> 27:22.329

        [SPEAKER_02]: I was at an event last week, where somebody was talking about the a fashion retailer and they’re talking about using AI design tools and they’re saying an experience designer using one of those was giving a really specific brief with a good understanding and then the tweaks that they were making to the output.

        27:22.949 –> 27:24.290

        [SPEAKER_02]: were outstanding.

        27:24.350 –> 27:34.014

        [SPEAKER_02]: So what an experienced designer was able to do with that tool versus a lay person was, you know, night and day.

        27:34.134 –> 27:38.956

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that it’s very easy for us to think it’s like just like, oh, AI is going to give us the answer.

        27:38.996 –> 27:49.181

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s like, no, you have to have the experience and the understanding and invest in teaching it to get the outputs that you want.

        27:52.259 –> 27:57.043

        [SPEAKER_00]: The Ecommerce Masterplan is supported by some of the greatest companies in the Ecommerce sector.

        27:57.203 –> 27:58.624

        [SPEAKER_00]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

        28:09.993 –> 28:14.935

        [SPEAKER_01]: I love this section because it gives me and I’ll list us some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level.

        28:14.975 –> 28:16.635

        [SPEAKER_01]: Janis, are you ready for the top tips?

        28:17.075 –> 28:17.476

        [SPEAKER_02]: I am.

        28:17.836 –> 28:18.176

        [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.

        28:18.476 –> 28:26.599

        [SPEAKER_01]: Booktop tip first up then if everyone listing to this podcast to group take Friday off to read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

        28:27.519 –> 28:41.533

        [SPEAKER_02]: In this context, it would have to be Adam Grant’s thing again, which is all about the assumptions that we make and the decision-making processes that we use that don’t serve us and all of those things.

        28:41.653 –> 28:46.558

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think it’s the absolutely perfect book to read before embarking on this project.

        28:47.364 –> 28:48.385

        [SPEAKER_01]: Nice.

        28:48.405 –> 28:54.409

        [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either prize above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves.

        28:55.670 –> 28:58.412

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think I’m going to be counterintuitive.

        28:59.112 –> 29:11.921

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think increasingly it’s not about traffic that I think more and more user journeys are going to take place off your website whether that’s.

        29:12.781 –> 29:19.146

        [SPEAKER_02]: LLMs and Geo or YouTube or Meta or any of those things.

        29:19.326 –> 29:31.476

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think we all need to get a lot less hung up about traffic and actually about how do we communicate clearly with our customers wherever they are.

        29:32.557 –> 29:37.963

        [SPEAKER_01]: Nice, which comes back to great product data, clear DNA, and all of those great things.

        29:38.985 –> 29:49.056

        [SPEAKER_01]: The tooltop tip, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plug in a phone up or just a way of working, is there a cool little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day?

        29:49.917 –> 30:05.079

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the things I’m finding really useful is understanding how to structure a prompt to get the output that you want, that telling it like, right, who are you?

        30:06.080 –> 30:08.461

        [SPEAKER_02]: What are you trying to achieve?

        30:08.862 –> 30:10.943

        [SPEAKER_02]: What does the output look like?

        30:11.303 –> 30:14.345

        [SPEAKER_02]: What process do you want it to go through?

        30:14.845 –> 30:20.209

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think for me, thinking about how do you, not just like do this task?

        30:21.069 –> 30:30.014

        [SPEAKER_02]: And then giving it examples of what good looks like, like thinking about, or actually, what does it a good prompt structure look like?

        30:30.595 –> 30:32.516

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think is something that I’m evolving at the moment.

        30:32.556 –> 30:34.037

        [SPEAKER_02]: I’m finding really useful.

        30:34.983 –> 30:38.405

        [SPEAKER_01]: It is quite impressive that there are now tools to help you write the prompt.

        30:39.565 –> 30:42.046

        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s like, so we’ve almost gone full circle now.

        30:42.767 –> 30:44.768

        [SPEAKER_02]: But you’ve got to have the answers.

        30:44.808 –> 30:47.669

        [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is the bit that people are trying to skip.

        30:48.209 –> 30:52.471

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s like, actually, you have to feed it with really good quality stuff.

        30:52.771 –> 30:56.433

        [SPEAKER_02]: You’ve got to feed it with really good quality examples.

        30:56.473 –> 30:58.634

        [SPEAKER_02]: You’ve got to feed it with all that data.

        30:59.134 –> 31:02.276

        [SPEAKER_02]: You can’t just expect it to make it up because it will.

        31:02.996 –> 31:04.377

        [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then you’ll pay the price.

        31:04.977 –> 31:06.398

        [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the carbon top tip.

        31:06.438 –> 31:10.241

        [SPEAKER_01]: What’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

        31:11.202 –> 31:13.803

        [SPEAKER_02]: I think it’s all about what we’ve been talking today.

        31:13.823 –> 31:14.964

        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s about focus.

        31:15.384 –> 31:26.772

        [SPEAKER_02]: If you think about how much time and resource is wasted in every organisation, this is the exercise that we should all be going through right now to reduce our carbon footprint.

        31:27.552 –> 31:34.993

        [SPEAKER_01]: It is as simple as that as Nick carbon footprint reduction is waste reduction and focusing and knowing what you’re doing will reduce your carbon footprint.

        31:35.153 –> 31:36.354

        [SPEAKER_01]: I love that as an answer.

        31:36.394 –> 31:41.155

        [SPEAKER_01]: That’s perfect Janice 10 out of 10 Janice before we say goodbye.

        31:41.215 –> 31:46.776

        [SPEAKER_01]: Could you please let the listeners know where they can find you and get in contact if they want to chat with you.

        31:47.516 –> 31:49.896

        [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, please get in touch with me on LinkedIn.

        31:50.076 –> 31:52.157

        [SPEAKER_02]: I’m Janice Thomas and that’s J.A.

        31:52.337 –> 31:53.097

        [SPEAKER_02]: and I.S.

        31:54.097 –> 31:55.439

        [SPEAKER_01]: Simple as that, everybody.

        31:55.720 –> 32:01.789

        [SPEAKER_01]: Janice, thank you so much for being on the e-commerce Master Plan podcast and for being so generous sharing your experience with us.

        32:01.849 –> 32:03.652

        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s always a pleasure to catch up with you.

        32:04.213 –> 32:05.275

        [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me, Chloe.

        32:11.074 –> 32:13.415

        [SPEAKER_01]: brilliant insights there from Janice.

        32:13.435 –> 32:21.037

        [SPEAKER_01]: So if you are looking at restoring the growth of your e-commerce business, then it’s not about playing around with the marketing.

        32:21.438 –> 32:30.040

        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s time, given COVID and all the AI changes and all the rest of it, it is time to rip it up and start again, metaphorically speaking.

        32:30.261 –> 32:34.402

        [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, get out that blank sheet of paper, work out where you should be going.

        32:34.982 –> 32:47.430

        [SPEAKER_01]: involve your team in the process, take them along for the ride, make it inspiring and exciting, see what untapped resources you’ve got in the business, cut those unnecessary costs and get really good at prioritisation with that clear goal.

        32:47.510 –> 33:01.519

        [SPEAKER_01]: And as we talked about again and again, get the DNA and the building blocks right in the business, the vision, the values, he or target customers, the product data, it will make what is quite clearly coming down the road for us so much easier to deal with if you’ve got all that right.

        33:02.580 –> 33:10.806

        [SPEAKER_01]: You can get your hands on our notes of this episode, including those top tips and things links to the things we mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterplanned.com.

        33:11.326 –> 33:16.510

        [SPEAKER_01]: You could also use our direct episode short links, just put ECMP.info for us.

        33:17.030 –> 33:22.094

        [SPEAKER_01]: The number of this episode into the URL bar, and you’ll be redirected straight to the right episode page.

        33:22.534 –> 33:29.800

        [SPEAKER_01]: When you get to the website, you can also add yourself to our email list, so you don’t miss out on any of the other things I share to help you improve your business.

        33:30.440 –> 33:38.423

        [SPEAKER_01]: And if you like this episode, then why not go back and have a listen to episode 561, which is our very first, what would you do?

        33:38.443 –> 33:45.305

        [SPEAKER_01]: A what would you do if you were to take over an e-commerce business in the 10 to 25 million range?

        33:45.866 –> 33:48.186

        [SPEAKER_01]: And you can find all our what would you do is at

        33:52.688 –> 33:56.651

        [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning into this and every episode of the e-commerce master plan podcast.

        33:56.711 –> 34:06.079

        [SPEAKER_01]: I bring you a new interview every week to inspire and help people like you to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including progressing along the path to net zero.

        34:06.500 –> 34:12.064

        [SPEAKER_01]: So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast.

        34:12.385 –> 34:15.027

        [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

        34:18.540 –> 34:21.883

        [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the e-commerce Master Plan podcast.

        34:22.303 –> 34:27.107

        [SPEAKER_00]: Find out more at e-commercemasterplanned.com slash podcast.

        35 min
      • eCommerce MasterPlan | 565: Multi-Channel eCommerce Made Simple: Lessons from Charles Bentley’s £30M Strategy with Andrew Steel

        Andrew Steel is the eCommerce Director at Charles Bentley. Founded 160 years ago as manufacturer of chimney sweeping brushes, they now balance selling brushes and cleaning products via wholesale and dropshipping to some of the UK’s largest retailers and running their own home and garden eCommerce store. Annual Sales are now at around £30million across the group. 

         

        In this episode, Andrew shares the hard-won lessons behind managing 20+ sales channels, mastering stock control, and scaling a heritage brand in today’s competitive eCommerce landscape. 

         

        Hit PLAY to hear: 

        • How Charles Bentley sells on 20+ channels (without going crazy) 
        • The clever stock-splitting system that prevents overselling nightmares 
        • Why cutting SKUs from 1,300 to 600 actually boosted growth 
        • How Andrew uses data, weather trends & search terms to forecast sales 
        • The truth about price scraping & keeping prices consistent across marketplaces 
        • Why fractional experts can be your secret weapon for eCommerce scaling 

          •  

          Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

          [03:57] Optimizing Retail Channels for Growth 

          [07:44] Stock Management and Channel Optimization 

          [12:08] Challenges in Retail Price Control 

          [16:00] Evolving Expertise Through Technology Partnership 

          [16:57] Longstanding Trusted Business Partnership 

          [23:16] eCommerce Challenges and Recovery 

          [24:54] Expanding Charles Bentley’s European Market 

          [25:35] Listen to Andrew’s Top Tips! 

           

          Full episode notes here: https://ecmp.info/565 

          —

          Download our ebook… https://ecmp.info/ebook 500 Tips to Increase Your Profits

          Get all the links and resources we mention and join our email list at https://ecmp.info

          Love the show? Chloe would love your feedback – leave a review here: https://ecmp.info/review or reply to the episode QandA on Spotify.

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          Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

          Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

          WEBVTT

          00:00.580 –> 00:10.109

          [SPEAKER_00]: I always had a bit of a vision that customers and shoppers would go to their preferred channel to buy a product and some retail buy ones told me that the brand is something you can buy everywhere.

          00:10.489 –> 00:22.160

          [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess for us at Charles Bennett it was around how do we leverage the types of products that we’ve got and try and offer customers a choice to wear to buy them predominantly online in some of the products that potentially don’t work for us in store.

          00:24.870 –> 00:27.234

          [SPEAKER_01]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

          00:27.795 –> 00:31.881

          [SPEAKER_01]: Here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

          00:32.402 –> 00:40.173

          [SPEAKER_01]: Cutting through the highly to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

          00:43.544 –> 00:44.705

          [SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome.

          00:44.745 –> 00:45.686

          [SPEAKER_02]: It’s great to have you here.

          00:45.746 –> 00:49.509

          [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

          00:50.210 –> 00:57.776

          [SPEAKER_02]: Now regular listeners will know that me and the team get a lot of joy and fun when you guys talk about us on social or leave us reviews.

          00:58.116 –> 01:02.380

          [SPEAKER_02]: So I’ve got one of those to give a shout out to in this episode before we get started.

          01:02.760 –> 01:03.401

          [SPEAKER_02]: So huge.

          01:03.581 –> 01:04.742

          [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you too.

          01:04.982 –> 01:06.384

          [SPEAKER_02]: I read a russ of it.

          01:06.704 –> 01:07.765

          [SPEAKER_02]: Hope I pronounced that right.

          01:08.365 –> 01:15.549

          [SPEAKER_02]: who is works at Luxon 10 and she puts up on LinkedIn.

          01:15.869 –> 01:22.673

          [SPEAKER_02]: This comment about our episode, episode 553 with John Mark Cronic of Lamatera, loved this episode.

          01:22.733 –> 01:29.957

          [SPEAKER_02]: The insights into thoughtfully scaling a company building supply chains and being cognizant of your brand roots resonated particularly with me.

          01:29.997 –> 01:34.339

          [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we glad we resonated with you, Irina, and have a lovely day.

          01:35.800 –> 01:39.863

          [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, in this episode, we are catching up with one of our past guests.

          01:40.464 –> 01:50.692

          [SPEAKER_02]: We last caught up with Andrew in 2020 when he was dealing with the huge growth in sales caused by the pandemic, while he’s back and this time talking about all manner of different things.

          01:51.092 –> 02:00.400

          [SPEAKER_02]: We’ll be talking about how you handle selling across over 20 different channels, balancing both buying in stock and managing manufacturing your own stock.

          02:01.000 –> 02:10.113

          [SPEAKER_02]: We’ll be talking a bit about price scraping, we’ll be talking about what to outsource and he’ll be sharing his tips on expanding into Europe.

          02:10.674 –> 02:15.762

          [SPEAKER_02]: Loads coming up in this one, plus of course his top tips are excellent, so do listen to the end.

          02:21.720 –> 02:23.681

          [SPEAKER_02]: and now to introduce our special guest.

          02:24.162 –> 02:27.364

          [SPEAKER_02]: Andrew Steele is the e-commerce director at Charles Bentley.

          02:27.764 –> 02:43.534

          [SPEAKER_02]: Founded 160 years ago as a manufacturer of chimney sweeping brushes, they now balance selling brushes and cleaning products by a wholesale and drop shipping to some of the UK’s largest retailers together with running their own home and garden e-commerce store.

          02:44.034 –> 02:48.237

          [SPEAKER_02]: And your sales are now around 30 million pounds across the group, hello Andrew.

          02:50.373 –> 02:55.629

          [SPEAKER_02]: great to have you back on overdue, which I think is my fault and not your, definitely my fault and not yours.

          02:55.970 –> 02:57.054

          [SPEAKER_02]: So how have you been?

          02:58.082 –> 02:59.602

          [SPEAKER_00]: How have we been good, spin, busy?

          02:59.682 –> 03:16.206

          [SPEAKER_00]: So we obviously last talked, we talked on a podcast in 2020, and I think I told you about our expanding brushes and breams business online with some crazy staffs about being thousands of percent up selling brushes and breams online, because stores were shut, the infancy of the pandemic.

          03:16.226 –> 03:22.648

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, but anyway, and then we saw each other didn’t we last, or was April at Channel X, I think,

          03:23.300 –> 03:27.864

          [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it was a, yeah, it was a channel X, which was a fantastic event.

          03:28.785 –> 03:32.528

          [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, so things have obviously moved on quite a bit since then.

          03:32.608 –> 03:39.074

          [SPEAKER_02]: And I believe you are now selling on, is it 20 different channels you’re managing?

          03:39.394 –> 03:40.775

          [SPEAKER_00]: It’s something like that.

          03:41.316 –> 03:41.536

          [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

          03:42.186 –> 03:48.573

          [SPEAKER_02]: So on site, dropshipping, a plethora of marketplaces, wholesale.

          03:48.593 –> 03:54.079

          [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, how do you keep all of that in check?

          03:54.099 –> 03:56.902

          [SPEAKER_02]: Because everyone adds another layer of complexity, doesn’t it?

          03:57.530 –> 04:04.112

          [SPEAKER_00]: I think it’s probably got harder and it’s a great question and it’s a question that we do ask ourselves, you know, a little bit from time to time.

          04:04.132 –> 04:17.275

          [SPEAKER_00]: I always had a bit of a vision that customers and shoppers would go to their preferred channel to buy a product and some retail buy ones told me that, well, I asked him, you know, what do you constitute or brand and he said a brand is something you can buy everywhere?

          04:18.375 –> 04:25.477

          [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess for us, which I was bending it was around, how do we leverage the types of products that we’ve got and try and offer customers

          04:27.377 –> 04:50.904

          [SPEAKER_00]: predominately online in some of the products that protect potentially don’t work for us in store So that was a reason I guess that you know, we started selling on Amazon and eBay and you know Those infancy channels all those years ago Kind of 20 years ago, and then we built built the business onwards from then and The things change you know, we’ve we’ve we’ve backed other Retailers or retail brands that are coming to the market and we

          04:51.484 –> 05:13.160

          [SPEAKER_00]: hopefully you’ve done a really good job with them and built technology to support the complexities of all this aggregation and how you get days from age to be and and all does and shipping and tracking and look after customers and shoppers and so it’s maybe on a bit below I was saying maybe it’s easy then I didn’t do anything but it’s certainly a difficult one if you were going to start again I think.

          05:13.923 –> 05:31.847

          [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s like to add, what’s your up to 20 to add one more is not too much complexity, because like you say you’ve already got the systems and the processes in place to do 20, so adding more and more is not that much more difficult, but I would imagine the jump from two to three and from three to four and four to five is a lot harder.

          05:32.427 –> 05:37.489

          [SPEAKER_02]: What’s been the thing that, I wanna kinda say what’s the most difficult thing about managing 20?

          05:38.609 –> 05:40.689

          [SPEAKER_02]: Is it the data that goes on to the platforms?

          05:40.749 –> 05:42.870

          [SPEAKER_02]: Is it the orders that come off the customer service,

          05:43.990 –> 05:47.955

          [SPEAKER_02]: the money, what’s the hardest thing to get right?

          05:49.397 –> 05:56.026

          [SPEAKER_00]: When we first started on eBay, you wrote a listing, didn’t you create some content, and then we decided to sell on Amazon.

          05:56.126 –> 06:00.452

          [SPEAKER_00]: And at that point, we said we would need some sort of aggregation, because we didn’t want to have to copy and paste stuff.

          06:01.388 –> 06:06.732

          [SPEAKER_00]: So we went to an aggregation partner, and they weren’t really that many back at that time, it was only a couple.

          06:07.412 –> 06:10.314

          [SPEAKER_00]: And we, you know, we slept one that we thought would be right to scale.

          06:10.855 –> 06:12.076

          [SPEAKER_00]: And that did make life easier.

          06:12.096 –> 06:16.199

          [SPEAKER_00]: And over the years, you know, we used that that part and we saw use that part on us today.

          06:16.999 –> 06:22.983

          [SPEAKER_00]: and they helped us with European selling, and then they took more aggregation, more channels on, etc, etc.

          06:23.303 –> 06:25.424

          [SPEAKER_00]: The theme probably becomes slightly more difficult.

          06:25.585 –> 06:31.088

          [SPEAKER_00]: And as it loads of those now, you know, they will do things in a slightly different way and some better and some worse.

          06:31.869 –> 06:41.435

          [SPEAKER_00]: The thing that probably is the hardest but is when you’ve got other, you know, if you’ve got a a web store or shop for our magenta, whatever, and your drop shipping, you still got to have data somewhere.

          06:42.290 –> 06:48.613

          [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you can use the data within the aggregator, but then you have to deal with the orders, but maybe with the orders aren’t within the aggregator.

          06:49.054 –> 06:57.158

          [SPEAKER_00]: So we ended up having to build a bridge, and that was probably the harder thing for us to do, because there wasn’t any technology at the time that would do that, so we had to build our own.

          06:57.878 –> 07:07.366

          [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, if you build your own technology, then you can help it ball game of other complexities and which is a brush manufacturing, we sell some card and stuff right, so we’re not a tech company.

          07:08.207 –> 07:17.214

          [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, we had to become more tech-focused and tech-minded to understand how we were going to serve as a scalable solution to look after customers regardless of the channel that they came to us through.

          07:18.207 –> 07:25.113

          [SPEAKER_02]: because it’s easy to get hung up on getting the information onto the plenoid, the product information, the graphics, et cetera, onto the other platforms.

          07:25.653 –> 07:33.340

          [SPEAKER_02]: But actually, the more critical stuff is the stock, the pricing, and then the orders coming out on the other side.

          07:33.920 –> 07:44.249

          [SPEAKER_02]: And once you’ve got 20, it must be really hard, making sure you don’t go out, not that you don’t go out of stock anyway, but I suppose that you don’t sell stock, you don’t have anywhere.

          07:44.997 –> 07:50.379

          [SPEAKER_00]: It’s easier than you think, because within the study for us, within the bridge that we’ve built, it takes a proportion of stock.

          07:50.619 –> 07:54.681

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, we’ll say, I’ve got 100 gas barbecues in this skew.

          07:54.721 –> 07:58.823

          [SPEAKER_00]: And it gave us, you know, the third of it here and the third of it here and the third of it here.

          07:59.143 –> 08:02.164

          [SPEAKER_00]: And that’s, you know, that’s algorithmically updated, depending on the stock.

          08:02.884 –> 08:17.377

          [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you can come out stuck if, you know, some of our partners, they don’t, they don’t, they don’t have to stop re-quick enough, or it might be a bit manual, and you can, you can sometimes see an oversell, but it’s very rare because, you know, we’ve built enough of the buffers that you don’t really get back to that position.

          08:18.257 –> 08:21.039

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we, we, we, we cope with it better than you think.

          08:21.099 –> 08:27.444

          [SPEAKER_00]: I think, I think the more challenging thing we’re probably starting to see now is each channel is becoming really good with this data.

          08:28.084 –> 08:33.688

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, Amazon with the pioneers of data and what you could do with data and how you manipulate it and what you can see within

          08:40.573 –> 08:42.816

          [SPEAKER_00]: So all of a sudden, the change is now for businesses.

          08:42.836 –> 08:46.961

          [SPEAKER_00]: We’ve got a few channels to sell on is what would you do with the data?

          08:46.981 –> 08:48.042

          [SPEAKER_00]: Because you’ve got to do something with them.

          08:48.062 –> 08:54.550

          [SPEAKER_00]: You’ve got one of the days you just, you just list something, can it sell or you maybe stick an ad on it or whatever.

          08:55.031 –> 08:59.737

          [SPEAKER_00]: We’ve got to get a bit more intuitive as brands and businesses to, what data is hell yes.

          09:01.079 –> 09:15.118

          [SPEAKER_02]: you sell everything everywhere or are you also not just making decisions about how you split what stock you’ve got across the channels but also what actually gets sold on every channel because how actually before you’ve announced that how many skews are you handling?

          09:15.158 –> 09:16.600

          [SPEAKER_02]: Because I’m guessing it’s you know it’s more than 100%

          09:18.481 –> 09:20.602

          [SPEAKER_00]: It’s about 600, free pandemic.

          09:20.662 –> 09:21.682

          [SPEAKER_00]: It was probably a lot more.

          09:22.082 –> 09:26.344

          [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we came to the conclusion that we had maybe taken our range slightly too wide.

          09:26.904 –> 09:27.624

          [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it was 12 or 1300.

          09:27.684 –> 09:40.668

          [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, in reality, when you’re trying to, you’ve got to be laser-focused on the thing that you want to really succeed in, which is why we’re bristing someone brush away manufacture because we’ve spent under the 65 to five years being

          09:41.589 –> 09:43.871

          [SPEAKER_00]: learning about making rooms and and distributing it.

          09:44.211 –> 09:46.954

          [SPEAKER_00]: And there’s some things that you know, we’ve become a really quiet expert in now.

          09:47.374 –> 09:48.555

          [SPEAKER_00]: And we have to forge for us.

          09:48.815 –> 09:56.202

          [SPEAKER_00]: So 600 skews, you know, it’s not huge amounts, but we’re, you know, we’re confident in the skews that we’ve taken forward.

          09:56.563 –> 10:04.069

          [SPEAKER_00]: But they are, say, the hard to manage, but it’s, it’s the, you know, the day to day upkeep of them in an ever-changing world, I think.

          10:05.010 –> 10:06.652

          [SPEAKER_02]: And do you sell everything everywhere?

          10:08.487 –> 10:13.974

          [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I guess the reason we don’t is because some people don’t want necessary to list certain products.

          10:14.875 –> 10:25.169

          [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s more a case of the marketplaces, not being the right place to do it rather than a weed weed will sell our top 10% everywhere in the rest will shuffle around.

          10:25.850 –> 10:26.231

          [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

          10:26.851 –> 10:27.652

          [SPEAKER_00]: It could be fit.

          10:27.733 –> 10:30.015

          [SPEAKER_00]: It could be some of the chances we work with now.

          10:30.035 –> 10:37.785

          [SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot more curated or they just don’t want everything and I think there are some products as well that we don’t necessarily see fitting in some areas.

          10:37.806 –> 10:43.012

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we have to be slightly selective in some areas about what we do with them all.

          10:43.653 –> 10:52.620

          [SPEAKER_00]: But then sometimes you don’t always know, and it’s a hard sort of conundrum that sometimes we all face, you know, everything everywhere, you get more visibility, potentially traffic.

          10:53.101 –> 11:06.551

          [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you don’t quite know where something might sell, you know, we had a particular success over the pandemic, we were one particularly retail and there were a result that you wouldn’t necessarily see high ticket items on, and yet they had less, I suppose, competition at the time.

          11:07.032 –> 11:09.774

          [SPEAKER_00]: There’s only a Google feed and people are comfortable with the bike because they

          11:11.115 –> 11:18.500

          [SPEAKER_00]: and all of a sudden, you’re seeing pretty good, pretty good sales, say sometimes why should we limit people here in a way?

          11:19.121 –> 11:24.644

          [SPEAKER_00]: Say, but I think there’s more of that coming, more is more alignment for certain products, to certain channels.

          11:25.625 –> 11:35.592

          [SPEAKER_02]: I guess so it’s kind of you make your best guess with the other channel of what should be on there, but then you’re also watching the data for the surprises of what works where

          11:36.042 –> 11:37.144

          [SPEAKER_00]: exactly, exactly.

          11:37.464 –> 11:43.491

          [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things you can’t get away with when you start sending a multiple channels is price.

          11:44.192 –> 11:45.895

          [SPEAKER_02]: And should the price be the same everywhere?

          11:45.975 –> 11:46.856

          [SPEAKER_02]: How do you price match?

          11:47.036 –> 11:53.624

          [SPEAKER_02]: And it seems like one of the elements of AI that’s really taken off an e-commerce is good old price scraping, which

          11:54.485 –> 11:58.932

          [SPEAKER_02]: used to be, you know, it was a little bit complicated to set it up so not everyone bothered.

          11:59.233 –> 12:02.918

          [SPEAKER_02]: And now it takes about 30 seconds to set it up and everyone’s become obsessed.

          12:03.319 –> 12:08.346

          [SPEAKER_02]: What’s your your take on that nutty nightman little area of the business?

          12:08.845 –> 12:10.706

          [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if I took 30 seconds, it was really easy.

          12:10.726 –> 12:16.628

          [SPEAKER_00]: We were definitely using more, but I think for what I’ve seen, it’s not quite as simple as that, but you’re right.

          12:16.748 –> 12:22.210

          [SPEAKER_00]: It’s become really quite difficult over the last certainly two years to control it.

          12:22.710 –> 12:28.432

          [SPEAKER_00]: I think we’ve probably got in the better position this year with the consistency because, you know, it does alienation.

          12:28.572 –> 12:31.173

          [SPEAKER_00]: It shoppers to some extent if it’s so far out.

          12:31.753 –> 12:34.776

          [SPEAKER_00]: and every retailer obviously has a slightly different margin expectation.

          12:35.197 –> 12:47.648

          [SPEAKER_00]: But the price we’ve been told does some of us every one today, you know, and I hadn’t seen this one before, and maybe this one is the one that’s more competitively priced than the others, but it’s, you know, it’ll keep everyone on their toes, and I gather as well.

          12:47.668 –> 12:51.792

          [SPEAKER_00]: You can have some automation of price matching in Google now, which

          12:52.513 –> 13:10.320

          [SPEAKER_00]: for friends with me to death because you know you’ve got to make sure you’ve set it up right in the first place before it just goes and matches matches matches matches something so we have to be a bit bit careful but I think yeah we’re fairly aligned across the market you know across child spending products so it’s but it is hard when you’ve got many channels for sure

          13:11.163 –> 13:16.149

          [SPEAKER_02]: Is it price-graping for knee-jerk reactions to things, like Monday morning?

          13:16.449 –> 13:17.610

          [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, they’ve changed their price.

          13:17.670 –> 13:18.491

          [SPEAKER_02]: We need to do something.

          13:18.652 –> 13:23.577

          [SPEAKER_02]: Or do you see it more as competitive research and double-checking the strategy?

          13:23.597 –> 13:28.723

          [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s a more thought-through element than that’s changed.

          13:28.763 –> 13:29.624

          [SPEAKER_02]: We need to do something.

          13:30.479 –> 13:41.816

          [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it for us it’s probably more just having a bit of an understanding that we want customers both to buy a product from their preferred channel, whether they want to get points or subscriptions or cashbacks or whatever.

          13:42.437 –> 13:45.281

          [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it’s probably…

          13:46.362 –> 13:54.806

          [SPEAKER_00]: We don’t look at it all the time, I don’t get obsessed by it, I don’t look at it every five minutes, thinking someone’s listing a judgment, you put that to one price and someone else’s another price.

          13:55.227 –> 14:01.550

          [SPEAKER_00]: It’s more of a guy to understand maybe what’s going on within the dynamics of what’s happening within the retail channel.

          14:02.417 –> 14:07.901

          [SPEAKER_02]: Now you’ve got, I think it’s about 130, 150 people working across the business.

          14:08.842 –> 14:14.686

          [SPEAKER_02]: Does that mean you’re doing everything in-house or have you got some stuff you’re outsourcing as well?

          14:15.126 –> 14:16.187

          [SPEAKER_02]: What’s your approach to that?

          14:17.450 –> 14:18.130

          [SPEAKER_00]: It’s a good question.

          14:18.151 –> 14:20.152

          [SPEAKER_00]: We’ve got two size of the business.

          14:20.192 –> 14:24.775

          [SPEAKER_00]: We’ve got our manufacturing side, which is popping around.

          14:26.296 –> 14:32.861

          [SPEAKER_00]: So the two-thirds of the business at the moment, and that’s manufacturing in Lafborough, we sell about 2,000 breams, so 2,000 breams.

          14:32.881 –> 14:36.044

          [SPEAKER_00]: 2,000 breams is out, it’s about 2 million breams a year.

          14:38.365 –> 14:59.803

          [SPEAKER_00]: and we’re looking to expand that operation as well so we have people within that side of our business and within the e-commerce business we’ve got we’ve got quite a few experts that we rely on I think it’s quite hard to you don’t need to move the time they’re going to fractional you know direct to level people that can come and support us in various different functions whether it’s forecasts and trading

          15:00.463 –> 15:02.624

          [SPEAKER_00]: or it’s market place, aggregation management.

          15:03.424 –> 15:07.286

          [SPEAKER_00]: If I could get all the skills in the business, it’s obviously quite expensive to do that.

          15:07.586 –> 15:23.133

          [SPEAKER_00]: And actually to scale, maybe in the time, we may need more, but actually it works really quite well for us at the moment, having touch points within the business with the right office-based people to work and support the aggregation partners that we’ve worked with.

          15:23.373 –> 15:26.034

          [SPEAKER_00]: How many of those are a number of years to support the business?

          15:30.181 –> 15:42.404

          [SPEAKER_02]: freelance help or consultant help for this sort of business being at the lower level, you know, like we have so many comes in every couple of weeks and they sort out all our product copy or they do all the photography.

          15:42.944 –> 15:55.528

          [SPEAKER_02]: But I like your approach of, you know, the direct level insight, we’ve got our Amazon specialists, we’ve got our aggregation specialists, we’ve got our cash-ray forecasting, you know, stock forecasting specialists, how long did it

          16:01.017 –> 16:17.597

          [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of time I think it is and it’s not and it’s still not it’s something that always improves I think because technology changes isn’t that you have to go and find the next expert in something and can you know so taking a long time but I think the aggregation part we know we went to the aggregation part in a back in.

          16:18.838 –> 16:19.779

          [SPEAKER_00]: 2009 I think it was.

          16:20.160 –> 16:25.544

          [SPEAKER_00]: So quite a long time ago now and they were in X employee, you know, a launch manager within the channel.

          16:25.564 –> 16:42.498

          [SPEAKER_00]: So they had a really deep understanding of not only the channel but the complexities around migrating data around the internet and that particular person had left the business and we were on a quite expensive managed service at the time because we didn’t have the expertise in house and, you know, it got really expensive.

          16:43.198 –> 16:45.339

          [SPEAKER_00]: and I didn’t really feel like I was getting enough value for money from it.

          16:45.399 –> 16:50.062

          [SPEAKER_00]: So I knew this guy had left and linked him as a becomeer of things, so I sent him a link to message.

          16:50.442 –> 16:52.123

          [SPEAKER_00]: And just so I’ll do a little bit of mood license for me.

          16:52.143 –> 16:56.486

          [SPEAKER_00]: I’ll give you some money every month, you know, sort of half joking.

          16:57.347 –> 17:00.428

          [SPEAKER_00]: And they came back and they said, oh yeah, we just we’ve got the same idea.

          17:00.488 –> 17:02.430

          [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so we were there first client.

          17:03.130 –> 17:16.952

          [SPEAKER_00]: And that relationship is being quite long ever since because we’ve kind of grown up in our businesses together and we use them as sort of, you know, sounding boards for everything that’s going on and you know, it’s a fairly trusted partnership in certain things that those guys do.

          17:18.463 –> 17:22.807

          [SPEAKER_00]: You know, some of them are a bit more recent, the trading thing for us has become really, really important.

          17:22.827 –> 17:24.248

          [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you don’t have a, you can’t sell it.

          17:24.729 –> 17:35.139

          [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, whether when it’s sunny, you know, you need to, you know, you need to work out the risk of, versus reward of soaking too much stuff in some areas like Charles will always, you’ll blame me if we’re not so old enough.

          17:35.199 –> 17:39.203

          [SPEAKER_00]: And if we got too much stock, you know, you never praise if we don’t, well, they said we should have done more.

          17:39.803 –> 17:42.205

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, you’ve always got that paradigm shift.

          17:42.586 –> 17:46.389

          [SPEAKER_00]: You know, working on forecasting, it’s a tough ol’ gig.

          17:46.649 –> 17:56.237

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, and we’re putting more effort into how best we do we link our forecasting models to weather forecasting, historic data we’re looking at.

          17:56.918 –> 18:02.584

          [SPEAKER_00]: what we do with search terms and search history and impression shares across channels.

          18:02.945 –> 18:14.498

          [SPEAKER_00]: You’re taking this massive subset of data and trying to model it in a way that you’re buying stock and bring it into a digital marketing calendar, but a calendar of understanding about what the data is telling you.

          18:15.383 –> 18:28.317

          [SPEAKER_02]: and then impacting both your production schedules and your purchasing schedules, I suppose, which is two additional levels of complexity, because most businesses would either be doing production or they’d be doing purchasing, but you’re having to do both.

          18:28.497 –> 18:35.645

          [SPEAKER_02]: And they’re so I’ve got to see there’s different rules sets to each, because you can’t have everyone in the factory sitting around because it’s because the weather’s not right.

          18:36.716 –> 18:44.141

          [SPEAKER_00]: It is quite complicated because obviously we’re manufacturing, you know, brushes and breams and in left for as well as importing products that send me a guard of furniture or whatever.

          18:44.181 –> 18:46.342

          [SPEAKER_00]: So there’s these two sort of elements to the business.

          18:46.402 –> 19:02.833

          [SPEAKER_00]: The box shifting forecasting is probably a downside easier to forecast than the componentry and how many bristles and fibers you need and brackets and nuts and bolts and handle types and customer labeling and all the other bits boat where we do to help customers and support customers.

          19:03.653 –> 19:10.596

          [SPEAKER_00]: Or if it needs to go in a production box or a counter display or wherever, so, you know, my wife looks after that side of the business.

          19:11.436 –> 19:17.298

          [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes I look at the way that we forecast and think, yeah, there’s got to be different ways to do that.

          19:18.198 –> 19:27.642

          [SPEAKER_02]: And you mentioned about using the weather to help with the forecasting and then data from the search engines and Amazon data and all those different sorts of things.

          19:28.583 –> 19:31.126

          [SPEAKER_02]: And it’s, I find myself going, oh, that’d be so exciting.

          19:31.146 –> 19:32.327

          [SPEAKER_02]: That’d be so cool to build.

          19:32.628 –> 19:45.602

          [SPEAKER_02]: But then you have to remember, actually, we can have all the ideas we like, but if this doesn’t help us, and it doesn’t actually impact us, so it’s constantly questioning and questioning the rules sets and the data you’re pulling together.

          19:46.417 –> 19:51.003

          [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it’s only just in the infancy how we build that out in a certain way.

          19:51.504 –> 19:55.849

          [SPEAKER_00]: There’s a few tools that, you know, there isn’t enough of the shelf does that, but there’s tools that can help you with it.

          19:56.390 –> 20:03.138

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we have to work through how to, you know, how does how does how does that work and do we, you know, do we build it in-house or do we,

          20:03.699 –> 20:09.421

          [SPEAKER_00]: You know, is it an Excel model or do we go out and take it somewhere to go and support us with something?

          20:09.581 –> 20:19.244

          [SPEAKER_00]: Probably the same for the, I guess what I call the net cash profit forecasting because sometimes it’s quite difficult to see where the stock and where the channel management is being traded.

          20:19.904 –> 20:34.767

          [SPEAKER_00]: you know and there’s different different channels have different rules, the different commissions and rebates and other things and you know we need to we need to and businesses need to understand where is the dynamic of the sale because you can maneuver the things around across the season depending on the channel that’s the most profitable for you.

          20:35.568 –> 20:41.889

          [SPEAKER_00]: Ultimate goal is that you support everyone but in reality it’s not always evidently possible to do that in some channels.

          20:42.962 –> 20:57.987

          [SPEAKER_02]: course because if one market place is paying you on 15 day terms and the next one’s doing you 90 days end of month terms and the next one’s doing 30 days minus councils refunds and 30% just in case something happens and we’ll give you that in two years time.

          20:58.788 –> 21:11.072

          [SPEAKER_02]: It’s hard enough to build it with non dynamic data but your is the sales change every day of course then the numbers change every day so that must be a huge project too to try and accurately predict that.

          21:11.632 –> 21:16.819

          [SPEAKER_00]: It is, and I think we have got some software in-house that can aid us.

          21:16.859 –> 21:19.102

          [SPEAKER_00]: We’ve got a, as we call, a system’s accountant.

          21:19.222 –> 21:23.067

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, he builds a lot of data and data sets within our ERP.

          21:23.127 –> 21:28.794

          [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, you can start to look at things in a slightly different way, but I think the key for us and certainly businesses is, you know, what?

          21:29.355 –> 21:32.876

          [SPEAKER_00]: I think people can get quite hung up on sales and not net cash.

          21:33.456 –> 21:41.878

          [SPEAKER_00]: You know, sales and gross margin, you know, people can get re-hung up on that and think that, you know, the matrix is right and they might think a raft of one to two is amazing.

          21:41.898 –> 21:51.280

          [SPEAKER_00]: And other people might think that’s terrible, it depends on where you’re going with your business, but I think we quite like the data integrity here that Charles Bennie to see actually where what’s actually going on.

          21:52.220 –> 21:53.340

          [SPEAKER_02]: Where is the actual money?

          21:53.914 –> 21:54.294

          [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

          21:54.314 –> 22:00.256

          [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it’s a simple rule, but a very common one in retail, if you’re doing it right.

          22:00.276 –> 22:11.101

          [SPEAKER_02]: I’m not changing tack a little, Andrew, but you mentioned when we were talking about how many different channels you’re doing that you’ve also started selling across into other countries.

          22:12.041 –> 22:17.668

          [SPEAKER_02]: which obviously a great way of scaling, which has become somewhat more challenging this year with the trade wars going on.

          22:17.708 –> 22:23.576

          [SPEAKER_02]: Let’s not get into the politics of it all, but how has that changed your plans?

          22:24.016 –> 22:26.119

          [SPEAKER_02]: You know, because I imagine back in 2012 it’s been great.

          22:26.139 –> 22:30.044

          [SPEAKER_02]: We’re going to roll out to there, there, there, there, and there in Europe, and there, there, in America.

          22:30.584 –> 22:43.386

          [SPEAKER_02]: Now that the ground’s shifting so much with all of that, how are you, how is that altered your strategic decision-making about where geographically to sell and how fast to scale that up?

          22:44.223 –> 22:57.036

          [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think if we wind back to probably pre-Brexit when we first were selling predominantly on Amazon in Europe, France, Italy, Germany, and Spain with the first markets, and here we had a, I think originally we got a U.K.T.R.

          22:57.096 –> 22:59.839

          [SPEAKER_00]: government grant to go and fund it, which was great.

          23:00.040 –> 23:06.406

          [SPEAKER_00]: It was like 50% match funding, so we got lots of humans going right, lots of coffee, and you know, happy days, and then we were away.

          23:07.347 –> 23:13.892

          [SPEAKER_00]: We then really got to round about the pandemic time and the pandemic, you know, and Brexit, we were all kind of merged into one, didn’t it?

          23:14.472 –> 23:16.854

          [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, we were we were flying in Europe.

          23:16.874 –> 23:23.838

          [SPEAKER_00]: We’re doing about two and a half million euro, so something across those channels, plus the eBay, confirm, see discount.

          23:24.139 –> 23:25.540

          [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we’re going to we were going to launch a

          23:27.661 –> 23:32.664

          [SPEAKER_00]: and then the wheels fell off because it became a abundantly clear it was going to be a lot more complex and difficult.

          23:33.224 –> 23:45.972

          [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think the pandemic sort of subsided and then retail was in decline and 2022 for businesses with very, very difficult certainly in e-commerce and certainly with the God of Veneratory e-commerce with a crazy container price season.

          23:46.592 –> 23:52.679

          [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the stock that we were all lumber with, so I asked like many business, we just focused on getting through that kind of crazy time.

          23:52.699 –> 24:04.792

          [SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn’t really until last year that we felt we’d come to a position that we were supporting, our shoppers and our customers in the UK, which is really important to all of us, as a board we had to focus on.

          24:05.633 –> 24:07.614

          [SPEAKER_00]: You know, get the UK right, get lost.

          24:07.674 –> 24:15.898

          [SPEAKER_00]: Right, get up pricing right, you know, clear the decks and really make sure that we were going to be the preferred brand for, you know, within garden with many of these different retailers.

          24:16.679 –> 24:23.603

          [SPEAKER_00]: And it hasn’t become until that point that actually we can go and look at, look at Europe again and what’s become a button, the clear is it’s not as hard as it was.

          24:24.563 –> 24:31.729

          [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of things are changed, technology is aiding, certainly in some areas, and how to do it.

          24:32.189 –> 24:38.114

          [SPEAKER_00]: So we’ve already started our selling back on Amazon into France as our first channel, and really we should be able to roll out more products.

          24:39.094 –> 24:49.877

          [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we have to be a bit more careful about packaging and it’s assembly instructions and all the legal requirements, which is a lot more convocated than it was when we first started all those years ago.

          24:50.337 –> 24:52.297

          [SPEAKER_00]: But in reality, it’s not a difficult job.

          24:52.757 –> 24:53.638

          [SPEAKER_00]: It just takes time.

          24:54.318 –> 24:58.139

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, we should have shoppers buying shelves, many products across Europe really.

          24:59.499 –> 25:17.772

          [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, on mass over the next 12, 18 months and we should be able to go back into all those channels that we did and there’s a lot of work to do to make to make that work But certainly in a garden cash we went, you know, we’ve had an amazing year where the handway is like a five-year cycle So it seems every five years is amazing and then it’s sort of right and then it’s not very good

          25:18.432 –> 25:24.415

          [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, it scares to death in the garden category that, you know, what’s going to happen next year, or the year after.

          25:24.435 –> 25:32.660

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we do need to diversify and actually give shop a great product in, you know, southern Europe and where it’s potentially warmer or the season is extended.

          25:35.481 –> 25:40.264

          [SPEAKER_01]: E-commerce master plan is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the e-commerce sector.

          25:40.424 –> 25:41.645

          [SPEAKER_01]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

          25:48.392 –> 25:50.573

          [SPEAKER_01]: It’s time for the top tips round.

          25:53.174 –> 25:58.697

          [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I love this section because it gives me and our listeners some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level.

          25:58.737 –> 26:00.597

          [SPEAKER_02]: So Andrew, are you ready for the top tips?

          26:01.238 –> 26:02.198

          [SPEAKER_00]: Go on then.

          26:02.218 –> 26:03.939

          [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, then the FUC Top Tip.

          26:04.039 –> 26:10.462

          [SPEAKER_02]: If everyone listening to this podcast, agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

          26:11.434 –> 26:13.135

          [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I’ve, I’ve eaten nearly finish it.

          26:13.175 –> 26:19.058

          [SPEAKER_00]: I’ve not started, I picked up on holiday and I got slightly sidetracked with all sorts of family stuff, which is why I was on holiday.

          26:19.078 –> 26:26.423

          [SPEAKER_00]: But I was reading, I was reading in the middle of reading, a book called How to Make a Million In Business.

          26:27.063 –> 26:32.425

          [SPEAKER_00]: which is by Gary Beckwith and he’s the CEO of city cruisers in London.

          26:33.065 –> 26:37.007

          [SPEAKER_00]: And it’s really interesting because, you know, it’s like a bit of a wreck to Richard’s story.

          26:37.407 –> 26:38.047

          [SPEAKER_00]: And I quite like that.

          26:38.087 –> 26:46.850

          [SPEAKER_00]: I quite like the, you’re reading about adversity and challenge and yeah, how people have evolved from sort of nothing and just learned along the way.

          26:47.070 –> 26:50.572

          [SPEAKER_00]: So I love that type of book and, you know, they’re doing amazing for what it sounds like.

          26:50.612 –> 26:51.512

          [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it’s a good read.

          26:52.235 –> 27:01.403

          [SPEAKER_02]: It’s always nice to read kind of what I call a business biography, or autobiography, especially when it’s in a different sector.

          27:02.043 –> 27:04.085

          [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because we’ll read too much e-commerce stuff, don’t we?

          27:04.125 –> 27:08.609

          [SPEAKER_00]: Listen to too much e-commerce stuff and it’s quite refreshing.

          27:08.669 –> 27:16.396

          [SPEAKER_02]: Go and see, oh yeah, I get where they’re doing that, you know, look beyond, as always, always good in my book, so I will be looking at one of myself.

          27:17.003 –> 27:17.223

          [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

          27:17.263 –> 27:34.966

          [SPEAKER_00]: And everyone, I think the thing we find, and the same with meeting other people in other industries, on a course, or maybe like a leadership course, like mentoring course, and there’s a lot of other sort of director execs, you know, people, and no matter the size of the business or the type of, well, everyone’s got the same changes.

          27:35.526 –> 27:44.728

          [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone’s got the same problems with their teams or technology or sector or owners or transport or whatever, and it’s just just

          27:47.202 –> 27:54.487

          [SPEAKER_02]: are completely, okay, the traffic top tip, which marketing method, do you either price above all others or think doesn’t get the press it serves?

          27:55.768 –> 28:08.697

          [SPEAKER_00]: I think for me, it’s probably somebody who I talk to talk about there, you know, the very first videos about their own.com and they don’t really understand the leverage of going where the traffic is going and there’s that shifts to market place and other areas.

          28:08.717 –> 28:13.100

          [SPEAKER_00]: I think it’s really important to look at where the data is saying the shopper is going.

          28:13.740 –> 28:29.829

          [SPEAKER_00]: the impressions and the sessions because if you’re not doing those things then you’re really missing missing an opportunity to find shoppers that may not find your brand or so I’d probably say that there’s a traffic tip but not necessary to get you to your site directly but just have a white cast and that wide of your brand.

          28:30.490 –> 28:34.112

          [SPEAKER_02]: It’s a bit like being in the formerly hot area of the

          28:39.613 –> 28:42.994

          [SPEAKER_02]: But we’re staying here, it was good one, so we couldn’t possibly leave over there.

          28:43.014 –> 28:47.016

          [SPEAKER_00]: It’s very true, and without going on in too much.

          28:47.216 –> 28:57.520

          [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the channels that are going to be around, there’s a lot going on with the Chinese channels coming to the UK, and sometimes I look at it, I think I don’t really want to be there, but in reality,

          28:58.509 –> 29:16.040

          [SPEAKER_00]: It’s probably going to happen and there’ll be a time when we all have to consider if they’re taking 50% of the market traffic for search terms in the UK then and you’re not there then you’ll be in left behind so we’ve always been quite good at, you know, is a business to maneuver and be nimble and have a fairly open mind as well.

          29:16.995 –> 29:18.576

          [SPEAKER_02]: good work, good rules for life there.

          29:18.916 –> 29:29.162

          [SPEAKER_02]: The tool to uptip, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plugin, a phone app or just a way of working, is there a call little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day?

          29:30.203 –> 29:45.452

          [SPEAKER_00]: One that I’ve had, which maybe slightly touched on, is cellarbord, cellarbord.com for Amazon data, because you can plug it in and you can use, you can use it software to look at your sales and your commissions and your rebates, and it gives a bit of a mini-pnl.

          29:46.212 –> 29:52.879

          [SPEAKER_00]: which, you know, really, I think, you know, it is nice to see if you’re multi-channeling and you can, you know, you can build out more things within it to see.

          29:53.379 –> 30:00.987

          [SPEAKER_00]: We’ve started using Clavio for CharlesBeing.com and that’s been really quite good for us, you know, to see how we set the flows up and there’s more customer interaction.

          30:01.467 –> 30:04.088

          [SPEAKER_00]: which you know is really what we want to see on our own.com.

          30:04.128 –> 30:14.053

          [SPEAKER_00]: You know, CharlesBee.com is, you know, in a way it’s the hub of where people might come to to understand the brand and actually in reality we want them to buy on their preferred channel.

          30:14.153 –> 30:23.817

          [SPEAKER_00]: If they buy from us, great, we want to service them and look after them and retargonise other good bits, but in reality we want to support all the places that we sell then you need to feel comfortable where you buy it from.

          30:24.918 –> 30:30.040

          [SPEAKER_02]: And the carbon top tip, what’s your favourite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

          30:31.205 –> 30:33.306

          [SPEAKER_00]: Well, not just a store, but I think there’s a business.

          30:33.386 –> 30:39.290

          [SPEAKER_00]: We maybe slightly think of them in a different way because we’re manufacturing as well, or I’m just a pure play.

          30:39.590 –> 30:46.874

          [SPEAKER_00]: But we’ve got a company called Auditale and Auditale are carbon footprint, so I can decalten see fair.

          30:46.915 –> 30:51.437

          [SPEAKER_00]: And they’re doing a real deep dive, but it’s quite expensive, but it’s a real big deep dive into the business.

          30:51.918 –> 30:53.178

          [SPEAKER_00]: And it’s touching everything.

          30:53.519 –> 30:56.480

          [SPEAKER_00]: It’s asking in employees and our team, how to get to work.

          30:56.520 –> 30:59.042

          [SPEAKER_00]: It’s sadly times we go to the Far East, the source products.

          30:59.742 –> 31:05.423

          [SPEAKER_00]: how many miles or are, you know, fantastic sales team driving to go and represent the company and look after our customers.

          31:06.164 –> 31:12.965

          [SPEAKER_00]: And it takes all that data and it gives you, gives you a number, it gives you what it is and then they start to set parameters around how you would improve.

          31:13.545 –> 31:20.627

          [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that’s great, you know, you can probably tell we quite like data and we quite like understanding data and then you can do something with the data and then you can best of yourself.

          31:21.307 –> 31:42.463

          [SPEAKER_00]: and also we invested the planet, so the order to tell data is really quite important for us, but not just that, but obviously the impact of plastic packaging tax in our industry in the UK, that was going to make a big change anyway, so we’re spending a lot of time and understanding that to remove plastic from products packaging, you know, getting a higher recycled contact content.

          31:43.003 –> 31:47.166

          [SPEAKER_00]: For example, our clay chimneys now used to have a polystyrene big case because

          31:50.749 –> 31:57.374

          [SPEAKER_00]: And now it’s, you know, we’ve had to redesign and have like a honeycomb inner so that it still gets the benefits of the polystyrene, but without the plastic.

          31:57.754 –> 32:11.124

          [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, there’s, and of course, you know, I think 600 online products and, you know, probably 2000 products and total is a lot of work to go through and, you know, to make sure that we’re really, really making sure we’ve got a great product and that is carbon friendly.

          32:11.684 –> 32:32.142

          [SPEAKER_00]: And we plot a lot of trees and our forests, so we’re members of FSC, so obviously our wooden products are all FSC certified and so every time they’re dropped down and actually many of them are a buy products, so and without worrying if once tears too much that the wooden rooms are a buy product at the rubber industry, so when they cut the rubber trees down to make you know tires and

          32:32.842 –> 32:41.805

          [SPEAKER_00]: No, all the other things you used rubber for, the tree comes in of his life and it’s chopped down and obviously lots of them were replanted, it’s quite nice, a very ethical product.

          32:42.345 –> 32:47.006

          [SPEAKER_02]: I had no idea you were going to say rubber trees at that point, that was a complete surprise to me.

          32:47.026 –> 32:56.249

          [SPEAKER_00]: I know the expert, if you want to get Charles to come and talk to you about plantations and wood, he is more than 50 years experties in wood.

          32:56.997 –> 32:59.058

          [SPEAKER_02]: as it would be essential if you’re making brooms.

          32:59.778 –> 33:00.158

          [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

          33:00.698 –> 33:04.079

          [SPEAKER_02]: I love those carbon top tips as well because the data is obviously critical.

          33:04.119 –> 33:06.600

          [SPEAKER_02]: And then there’s clever solutions.

          33:07.360 –> 33:10.861

          [SPEAKER_02]: It’s lots of innovation and cleverness in the world of carbon.

          33:10.881 –> 33:11.881

          [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for that, Andrew.

          33:11.901 –> 33:18.043

          [SPEAKER_02]: Now before we say goodbye, could you please let the listeners know when they can find you and your business on the web and social media?

          33:18.867 –> 33:31.933

          [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, so CharlesBenny.com is the home of Charles Benny products, and you can find more manner of home guard and leisure products on the site, and we’re on your Facebook and Instagram at CharlesBenny.com 1860.

          33:33.074 –> 33:33.414

          [SPEAKER_02]: Brilliant.

          33:33.554 –> 33:35.695

          [SPEAKER_02]: Andrew, thank you so much for coming back on the show.

          33:35.735 –> 33:39.136

          [SPEAKER_02]: It’s always a pleasure to catch up with you, so I’m really pleased we’ve got to record it this time.

          33:39.197 –> 33:40.657

          [SPEAKER_02]: So I’m thank you so much for being here.

          33:41.257 –> 33:41.438

          [SPEAKER_00]: Great.

          33:41.458 –> 33:41.618

          [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks.

          33:41.818 –> 33:41.958

          [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks.

          33:47.990 –> 34:03.375

          [SPEAKER_02]: What a pleasure to get to catch up with Andrea again, and how fascinating to hear how he’s managing all that data and all those channels to grow the sales and really fascinated to hear his plans for European expansion over the next 12 to 18 months.

          34:04.375 –> 34:09.199

          [SPEAKER_02]: We should really get him on the show more often, so I will try not to leave it five years before we have him on again.

          34:09.219 –> 34:16.325

          [SPEAKER_02]: To get your hands on the notes from this episode, including those top tips and links to what we mentioned, head over to ecommercemasterplanned.com.

          34:16.806 –> 34:26.975

          [SPEAKER_02]: You could also use our direct-to-episode short-links, just put ECMP.info forward slash the number of this episode into the URL bar, and you’ll be redirected straight to the right page on the website.

          34:27.355 –> 34:30.257

          [SPEAKER_02]: When you get there, don’t forget to add yourself to our email list.

          34:31.178 –> 34:44.452

          [SPEAKER_02]: Now, if you liked this episode, then why not check out Episode 294, yes, a little while ago, five years ago, in fact, which was our first chat with Andrew, which is packed with even more of his great advice.

          34:44.872 –> 34:53.862

          [SPEAKER_02]: And if you want more on home and garden businesses, then head to ECMP.info4-home to see all our home and garden episodes on the website.

          34:54.542 –> 35:18.176

          [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for tuning into this and every episode that you listen to of the e-commerce master plan podcast I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help e-commerce business owners to succeed and thrive with their businesses including progressing along the path to net zero So if you know someone this show can help please tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast I hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing

          35:21.366 –> 35:24.688

          [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening to the e-commerce Master Plan podcast.

          35:25.129 –> 35:29.912

          [SPEAKER_01]: Find out more at e-commercemasterplanned.com slash podcast.

          36 min
        • eCommerce MasterPlan | 564: How COOK Became a £150 Million Food Retailer with James Rutter

          James Rutter is the Chief Strategy Officer at COOK, home of award-winning frozen meals and puddings. Founded in 1997, and a BCorp since 2013! COOK now sell via their bespoke website, 111 shops across the UK, and via wholesale. And in the last 15 years they’ve grown from £30million to being on track for £150million in annual sales this year, of which about 1/5 are online. 

           

          In this episode, James reveals the three pillars that power COOK’s incredible growth — and how you can apply them to your business. 

           

          Hit PLAY to hear: 

          • Why culture is the ultimate competitive advantage in eCommerce 
          • James’ 7 Laws of Strategy (and why your strategy must fit on ONE page) 
          • How to make every team member feel like an “insider” 
          • Cook’s bold hiring program that brings in talent others overlook — and why it works 
          • The simple rhythm Cook uses to keep strategy, budgeting, and execution aligned 
          • How to turn internal culture into external brand energy that customers love 

            •  

            Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

            [03:57] “Vertically Integrated Retail Food Chain” 

            [08:18] “Empowering People in Business” 

            [12:54] “Balancing Recruitment with Social Impact” 

            [15:55] Simplifying Strategy for Clarity 

            [18:57] Painful Choices Ensure Strategic Clarity 

            [21:21] Annual Strategic Planning Process 

            [24:14] Cultivating Authentic Brand Connection 

            [26:50] Confronting Brutal Facts 

            [29:27] Listen to James’ Top Tips! 

             

            Full episode notes here: https://ecmp.info/564

            —

            Download our ebook… https://ecmp.info/ebook 500 Tips to Increase Your Profits

            Get all the links and resources we mention and join our email list at https://ecmp.info

            Love the show? Chloe would love your feedback – leave a review here: https://ecmp.info/review or reply to the episode QandA on Spotify.

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            Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

            Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

            WEBVTT

            00:00.571 –> 00:16.239

            [SPEAKER_02]: culture and just believing in culture and the idea that actually culture is a competitive advantage is just really core to kind of who we are as a business and I genuinely think that’s true of whether you’re you know three people or you know 300,000 people.

            00:16.459 –> 00:22.282

            [SPEAKER_02]: The culture and the connection you have between those people is going to directly flow through to how your business

            00:25.646 –> 00:28.049

            [SPEAKER_00]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

            00:28.590 –> 00:32.655

            [SPEAKER_00]: It is a help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

            00:33.176 –> 00:40.967

            [SPEAKER_00]: Cutting through the hive to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

            00:44.317 –> 00:46.798

            [SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome, it’s great to have you here.

            00:46.898 –> 00:50.679

            [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

            00:51.099 –> 00:53.980

            [SPEAKER_01]: I am super pleased to be able to bring you this guest.

            00:54.060 –> 00:59.301

            [SPEAKER_01]: We have been trying to get someone from Cook on the show for a very long time.

            00:59.901 –> 01:03.402

            [SPEAKER_01]: And earlier this year, I saw James our guest today.

            01:03.742 –> 01:13.705

            [SPEAKER_01]: Put up a post about his strategic process and the strategic approach that has taken Cook to the phenomenal retailer here in the UK that it now is.

            01:14.405 –> 01:20.770

            [SPEAKER_01]: So we thought, oh, that’s sewn in on James and see if we can get him on the show, a myriam our podcast book, a managed it.

            01:21.150 –> 01:22.852

            [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we got James on the show.

            01:23.252 –> 01:27.695

            [SPEAKER_01]: So we are talking about big picture strategy here.

            01:28.016 –> 01:29.397

            [SPEAKER_01]: Great time of year to be doing it.

            01:29.577 –> 01:31.919

            [SPEAKER_01]: This is when you should be, I know you’re in the middle of peak.

            01:32.259 –> 01:38.644

            [SPEAKER_01]: But you should be starting to work out what you’re actually doing this year or as you’re about to discover in this episode, you should have started months ago.

            01:39.324 –> 01:40.846

            [SPEAKER_01]: Now, it’s better than yesterday.

            01:40.866 –> 01:43.128

            [SPEAKER_01]: It’s better than tomorrow, rather.

            01:43.829 –> 01:54.821

            [SPEAKER_01]: So prepare to discover the three key pillars of the Kirk strategy for growth and lots and lots of practical tips within all of this to build it into your business too.

            01:55.221 –> 01:57.564

            [SPEAKER_01]: And make sure you listen to the end of the episode because

            02:06.586 –> 02:08.588

            [SPEAKER_01]: And now to introduce our special guest.

            02:09.008 –> 02:12.051

            [SPEAKER_01]: James Rutter is the Chief Strategy Officer at Cook.

            02:12.431 –> 02:15.234

            [SPEAKER_01]: Home of award-winning frozen meals and puddings.

            02:15.674 –> 02:22.340

            [SPEAKER_01]: Founded in 1997, and a B-Corp since 2013, Cook now sell via their bespoke website.

            02:22.960 –> 02:36.725

            [SPEAKER_01]: 100 and 11 shops across the UK and via wholesale and in the last 15 years they’ve grown from 30 million pounds to being on track for 150 million in annual sales this year of which about one fifth is online.

            02:37.065 –> 02:37.865

            [SPEAKER_01]: Hello James.

            02:38.245 –> 02:40.586

            [SPEAKER_02]: Hello Chloe, delighted to be here, we’re fortunate.

            02:40.906 –> 02:47.588

            [SPEAKER_01]: Delighted to have you here too, so I’m James before we get into cook and strategy and all those great things.

            02:47.748 –> 02:49.949

            [SPEAKER_01]: How did you end up in the world of e-commerce?

            02:51.108 –> 02:53.029

            [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, am I in the world of e-commerce?

            02:53.089 –> 02:53.669

            [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I am.

            02:53.709 –> 02:55.109

            [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don’t necessarily speak of it.

            02:55.189 –> 02:55.629

            [SPEAKER_02]: Well, like that.

            02:56.049 –> 02:59.750

            [SPEAKER_02]: So I joined Cook 15 more than 15 years ago.

            02:59.790 –> 03:01.711

            [SPEAKER_02]: So that was my entry to e-commerce.

            03:02.291 –> 03:08.533

            [SPEAKER_02]: As we had launched a website, I want to say in 2004, but I may be misremembering that.

            03:09.353 –> 03:11.914

            [SPEAKER_02]: But it was, you know, we were fairly early in the grand scheme of things.

            03:12.595 –> 03:15.896

            [SPEAKER_02]: So that was when I got into proper direct consumer.

            03:15.916 –> 03:20.078

            [SPEAKER_02]: But my previous career, I was actually a journalist for a kind of a dozen years.

            03:20.338 –> 03:29.302

            [SPEAKER_02]: And so I lived through that whole kind of dot com boom in the late 90s when suddenly the media industry in particular was kind of exploded by everything going online.

            03:29.843 –> 03:34.365

            [SPEAKER_02]: So I had an earlier formative e-commerce experience, I suppose, during that

            03:35.125 –> 03:40.273

            [SPEAKER_02]: whole revelation and went and worked for Dotcom and America and then kind of, that all went tits up.

            03:40.293 –> 03:42.557

            [SPEAKER_02]: So I came back and, you know, so yeah.

            03:43.458 –> 03:45.522

            [SPEAKER_02]: So I’ve seen it seen it from a number of different angles.

            03:46.328 –> 03:46.808

            [SPEAKER_01]: Very cool.

            03:46.888 –> 03:50.130

            [SPEAKER_01]: And you said you wouldn’t necessarily class yourself as being an e-commerce now.

            03:50.390 –> 03:56.673

            [SPEAKER_01]: Is it retail, you would say a curine, or is it food, or is it, I’m just curious, I mean?

            03:57.313 –> 03:57.513

            [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

            03:57.533 –> 04:01.995

            [SPEAKER_02]: So I think of us as being, we’re a food business, but we’re also a retailer.

            04:02.076 –> 04:06.818

            [SPEAKER_02]: And what makes us really unusual is that we’re vertically integrated.

            04:07.338 –> 04:08.459

            [SPEAKER_02]: So we make.

            04:09.519 –> 04:11.940

            [SPEAKER_02]: everything we sell and we own everything in between as well.

            04:12.000 –> 04:26.405

            [SPEAKER_02]: So we’ve got our shops on my high street, we’ve got our big kitchens, making food, we’ve got we own our logistics, tracking everything around and our coal store keeping it cool and then all those central functions from, you know, all the obvious things marked in people finance.

            04:27.045 –> 04:33.067

            [SPEAKER_02]: So with 2,000 people and I always say that we’ve kind of literally under our umbrella is all of humanity.

            04:33.607 –> 04:40.169

            [SPEAKER_02]: because we’re very unusual in the fact that we own that kind of what you might call a blue color manufacturing type of business.

            04:40.809 –> 04:46.871

            [SPEAKER_02]: And then we have our lovely cook shops on leafy high streets in lovely suburbs around the country.

            04:46.911 –> 04:57.975

            [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s a very interesting mix to try and bring all those people together to one business and feel like part of one business and all turn up and doing amazing job to deliver a great customer experience.

            04:58.752 –> 05:09.841

            [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course, because you, not only have you got the logistical and financial challenge of owning the whole thing and all the things that does to this and the opportunity as well, but you’ve also got

            05:11.039 –> 05:19.021

            [SPEAKER_01]: It’s not like there’s, you know, 20 head office people sat in a nice office building somewhere coming in and doing their nine to five.

            05:19.041 –> 05:30.604

            [SPEAKER_01]: You’ve got a whole arena of different classes, backgrounds, interest, workflows, working stuff going on as well without, you know, turning this into an HR podcast.

            05:31.444 –> 05:33.625

            [SPEAKER_01]: Does being a B-Corp help with that?

            05:34.785 –> 05:38.286

            [SPEAKER_02]: It helps to some degree, I guess, I think,

            05:39.610 –> 05:50.400

            [SPEAKER_02]: culture and just believing in culture and the idea that actually culture is a competitive advantage is just really core to kind of who we are as a business.

            05:50.920 –> 06:03.893

            [SPEAKER_02]: And I genuinely think that’s true whether you’re three people or 300,000 people, the culture and the connection you have between those people is going to directly flow through to how your business performs.

            06:04.513 –> 06:15.626

            [SPEAKER_02]: and, you know, being called helps to an extent, but I think we’d do it all anyway, you know, I think the cultural stuff is so strong within how we operate, that it would be their regardless.

            06:16.673 –> 06:33.599

            [SPEAKER_02]: But I do think having some kind of framework which helps you think about culture intentionally is really important, whether that’s B-Cort, whether it’s something of your own devising or something like a, I mean, we do the best company survey every year, and that gives us a framework.

            06:33.819 –> 06:37.620

            [SPEAKER_02]: So in a sense, that’s a helpful framework to look at our culture through that lens.

            06:37.960 –> 06:42.222

            [SPEAKER_02]: But having something that is meaning you sit down

            06:46.283 –> 07:01.540

            [SPEAKER_02]: how are they doing, you know, as people as well as colleagues, how do we help them do better because we want to do better, having that kind of framework in place is so important, so valuable, why could say whether you’re a mini little tiddler or a massive company, the other end of the spectrum.

            07:02.435 –> 07:04.155

            [SPEAKER_01]: So I’m sure we’ll get back into that in a minute.

            07:04.175 –> 07:13.318

            [SPEAKER_01]: But I just want to let the audience know, you know, a couple of bits of background before we go deeper, which is that the reason I’ve invited you on is not just because Kirk is an amazing business.

            07:13.378 –> 07:26.521

            [SPEAKER_01]: It’s also because you put up a LinkedIn post a couple of months ago about the three essentially ingredients for long-term success at Kirk, which with a strategic clarity, cultural, energy, and brand vitality.

            07:27.621 –> 07:33.123

            [SPEAKER_01]: Should we go through them in order James, or should we just take that cultural angle first?

            07:33.563 –> 07:34.303

            [SPEAKER_01]: Why do you want to go?

            07:34.663 –> 07:36.144

            [SPEAKER_02]: We can stick with cultures with there.

            07:36.164 –> 07:37.584

            [SPEAKER_02]: We can stick with the culture.

            07:37.624 –> 07:37.884

            [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

            07:38.344 –> 07:38.584

            [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent.

            07:38.624 –> 07:46.347

            [SPEAKER_01]: So I love that that you pointed out about how having the framework and the structure to actually sit down and think about it.

            07:46.367 –> 07:51.408

            [SPEAKER_01]: So I think a lot of businesses, the culture piece, the values piece, the whatever it you call it.

            07:52.328 –> 07:53.529

            [SPEAKER_01]: It’s like something which

            07:54.449 –> 08:00.291

            [SPEAKER_01]: someone did a project on in 2019 and then it got put in a draw.

            08:00.391 –> 08:04.812

            [SPEAKER_01]: It occasionally gets bought out of a real company meeting to make everyone feel good.

            08:05.632 –> 08:08.313

            [SPEAKER_01]: And then it gets ignored again for a couple of years.

            08:09.053 –> 08:14.954

            [SPEAKER_01]: But it’s the actual real commitment, not just lip service, that makes the difference.

            08:15.014 –> 08:16.655

            [SPEAKER_01]: Or is it the framework you pick?

            08:16.695 –> 08:17.775

            [SPEAKER_01]: What’s the key thing?

            08:18.373 –> 08:35.602

            [SPEAKER_02]: I think the key thing is genuinely believing in it, and having the sense that people, properly motivated, properly energized, with that idea that they’re doing something valuable, people will just make the difference, even in this AI world, people will still make the difference for your business.

            08:36.222 –> 08:42.226

            [SPEAKER_02]: And so what are you doing to enable your people to give their best?

            08:42.946 –> 08:43.587

            [SPEAKER_02]: for your course.

            08:43.627 –> 08:49.731

            [SPEAKER_02]: If you own a or run a business, surely that’s what you want, or if you manage a team, that’s what you want is to make sure people give their best.

            08:50.031 –> 08:55.435

            [SPEAKER_02]: And that’s all culture is, it’s really just thinking about, okay, how are we going to show up so that we give our best?

            08:56.015 –> 09:00.439

            [SPEAKER_02]: So, like I said, it’s not necessarily which framework you pick, but it’s having one, and it’s believing in it.

            09:01.079 –> 09:05.021

            [SPEAKER_02]: There’s this guy, a common resuming, something McGregor back in the 60s.

            09:05.061 –> 09:09.383

            [SPEAKER_02]: He had this sense that actually there’s a theory X, and a theory Y about people.

            09:09.804 –> 09:19.549

            [SPEAKER_02]: And theory X says that like people are just self-interested, lazy, good for nothings, and need a good broad and a good stick and a good battering to do anything with value.

            09:19.969 –> 09:27.173

            [SPEAKER_02]: And theory Y says that people are actually really self-motivated, energised individuals who’ve given the opportunity will do their best.

            09:27.633 –> 09:32.999

            [SPEAKER_02]: And the greatest thing was, look, I do tend to believe in X or Y, and in the 60s are a plenty of people in the X cap.

            09:33.620 –> 09:41.770

            [SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully, there’s fewer of those now, but I’m sure we all come across some of the apps do stuff to definitely live up to that idea.

            09:42.645 –> 09:56.941

            [SPEAKER_01]: It was not totally, I mean, it’s tangent us here, but I think one of the depressing things that came out, I mean, a lot of depressing things came out of the pandemic, but one of the business depressing things was realizing how many big business bosses have zero trust in their staff.

            09:57.262 –> 10:01.887

            [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when sales for spyware on the people’s computers, you know, you can take a,

            10:02.227 –> 10:06.990

            [SPEAKER_01]: take a screenshot, you know, a photograph of them every hour without them realizing to check that’s still at their desk.

            10:07.390 –> 10:14.173

            [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and then the absolute conviction that if someone’s not physically in your office, they couldn’t possibly be doing anything worthwhile.

            10:14.534 –> 10:20.097

            [SPEAKER_01]: I found that quite depressing, you know, which would be system, you know, one of those two series things.

            10:20.397 –> 10:23.859

            [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which you just kind of, how do people want to live like that?

            10:23.879 –> 10:25.780

            [SPEAKER_01]: Because being the boss of a business like that is

            10:28.481 –> 10:41.196

            [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I must be miserable though and yeah, constantly paranoid as in, you know, a good way to think about a useful phrase again, which I think applies and about a what size team you’re working with this is that how do you make everybody feel like an insider.

            10:42.097 –> 10:46.358

            [SPEAKER_02]: because really what people want is to feel really engaged with something that they’re part of the journey.

            10:46.978 –> 10:57.121

            [SPEAKER_02]: And as we tend to, if we kind of move up the seniority ladder or whatever, we start to hold information and all the secrets we’ve got.

            10:57.481 –> 10:59.762

            [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas actually, you just need to open up and

            11:00.382 –> 11:04.244

            [SPEAKER_02]: make sure everybody feels like they know what’s going on that they’re inside it in the business.

            11:04.704 –> 11:06.965

            [SPEAKER_02]: And that is such a simple thing to do.

            11:07.085 –> 11:08.745

            [SPEAKER_02]: All that requires is being opened and honest.

            11:08.946 –> 11:14.188

            [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it might, I think a lovely thing to do is like to send out a regular email if you’re a boss.

            11:14.428 –> 11:15.468

            [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, this is what I’ve been up to.

            11:15.508 –> 11:16.509

            [SPEAKER_02]: This is what we’ve been up to.

            11:16.529 –> 11:18.650

            [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I was in that big meeting the other day.

            11:18.670 –> 11:19.650

            [SPEAKER_02]: This is what happened.

            11:20.350 –> 11:26.873

            [SPEAKER_02]: It’s that sense in which actually if you let that information flow down, that will be so valuable in terms of the effort that comes back up.

            11:27.693 –> 11:37.060

            [SPEAKER_01]: I love that take, it’s kind of like, if you’re gonna build culture as well, the other thing I’ve always felt and feel free to contradict me here, you are far more of an expert in this than I am.

            11:37.080 –> 11:43.125

            [SPEAKER_01]: But it’s, you also can’t go, you can’t go top down, hoarding information, you also can’t go top down.

            11:43.185 –> 11:44.826

            [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, by the way, everybody, here’s our culture.

            11:44.846 –> 11:56.776

            [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it has to be, not necessarily ground up, it has to be almost a swirling pool that involves everybody to actually work out what it is and then to define it and to let it evolve over time.

            11:57.177 –> 11:57.857

            [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.

            11:57.897 –> 12:01.499

            [SPEAKER_02]: And I think for a time, if you’re small, that can be quite organic.

            12:01.639 –> 12:08.421

            [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that sends image if you’re sat in the same room and you can shout over to each other and it’s all all just got that sense of worrying it together.

            12:09.042 –> 12:09.622

            [SPEAKER_02]: That’s fine.

            12:10.702 –> 12:15.568

            [SPEAKER_02]: But if you grow, there will be a point in which you do want to put a bit more of a framework around it.

            12:15.888 –> 12:19.873

            [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, for us at Cook, it was gosh, what was it 2012 I think it was?

            12:19.913 –> 12:23.738

            [SPEAKER_02]: But by that stage, we were kind of 500 people in total.

            12:24.398 –> 12:28.483

            [SPEAKER_02]: But we kind of figured out, oh hold on, we’re not, we’re no longer meeting everybody who joins.

            12:29.444 –> 12:35.485

            [SPEAKER_02]: and the way that you used to be able to just kind of do values in behavior by as Moses no longer quite works.

            12:35.926 –> 12:44.288

            [SPEAKER_02]: So that’s the point that we put in place, you know, we created values again, went out to the team, took it all back in and made sure that there’s a kind of co-creatic exercise.

            12:44.328 –> 12:50.189

            [SPEAKER_02]: But had those very clear values in place so that that could take us from you know, 500 people to 2000 we are now.

            12:50.809 –> 12:52.149

            [SPEAKER_02]: But those values I think have been

            12:55.092 –> 13:04.142

            [SPEAKER_01]: And I think implicit in what you were just saying is that if you don’t hire the right people in the first place, you’re on a losing wicked, well, hence why so important at that recruitment stage.

            13:04.182 –> 13:16.455

            [SPEAKER_01]: But as a business, you’ve made the, this is going to sound really privileged, but it’s not how I mean it, but you’ve made the recruitment process much trickier

            13:16.935 –> 13:31.962

            [SPEAKER_01]: with the raw talent program where you are doing what pretty much every business ought to be doing, which is trying to help the most disadvantaged in society, which I’m assuming was a was a big leap in the culture, place or was it culture that enabled that?

            13:32.202 –> 13:33.303

            [SPEAKER_01]: Could you first?

            13:33.343 –> 13:40.166

            [SPEAKER_01]: Could you explain more about the policy because I have not explained it, but did your cultural abilities

            13:44.320 –> 14:02.775

            [SPEAKER_02]: So raw talent is a program we’ve been running for 11 or 12 years now and raw stands for ready and working and it’s all about providing people with big barriers to employment and opportunity to get into work and have a kind of thriving career and feel like the life’s going somewhat.

            14:03.195 –> 14:17.284

            [SPEAKER_02]: And so we draw from prison, so people who’ve been in prison, people who’ve perhaps would be at a work for a long time, and they’re long-term and employed very, very hard to often get back into work, and people who’ve maybe suffering with mental health issues.

            14:17.344 –> 14:23.348

            [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s people who’ve got these big barriers to getting a job, and it came from, honestly, it came from, I think, our heart as a business.

            14:24.248 –> 14:35.194

            [SPEAKER_02]: to want to help people and the facts that we do have a kind of big kitchen where we’re making food means there are entry-level jobs that we could offer in a fairly straightforward way.

            14:35.834 –> 14:37.875

            [SPEAKER_02]: So that’s not true of many businesses.

            14:39.033 –> 14:47.820

            [SPEAKER_02]: But it wouldn’t have worked without us having, I guess, even if it was innate at that point, and not particularly formalised, the cultural strengths that people trust us.

            14:48.581 –> 15:03.674

            [SPEAKER_02]: So to say to somebody who’s working in a team in a kitchen, oh, you’re now going to have somebody come in a sad and beside you, working who’s been in prison, has the potential to kind of create some friction or some ripples, but at that way, in the water.

            15:05.095 –> 15:06.416

            [SPEAKER_02]: So being very open about it,

            15:07.665 –> 15:14.568

            [SPEAKER_02]: throughout the whole process, it was coming into being but also then being very responsive to people’s concerns was a big part of it.

            15:14.988 –> 15:24.052

            [SPEAKER_02]: But that program now, like says, has been going more than 10 years, we just celebrated, I think, our 250th job that we’ve given through that program.

            15:24.492 –> 15:33.256

            [SPEAKER_02]: And it is not just about that individual, it’s about, if you think about them, as there’s just the number of a load of relationships, as their families, their friends, it’s the broader community.

            15:33.536 –> 15:35.337

            [SPEAKER_02]: So how that report out is just,

            15:36.161 –> 15:38.181

            [SPEAKER_02]: you know, just a privilege to be part of.

            15:38.362 –> 15:44.363

            [SPEAKER_02]: And I should say absolutely nothing to do with me is people other people, other than me, he put in the hard work on it.

            15:45.343 –> 15:52.685

            [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the first of your sustainable success, three essentially ingredients, which we skipped over, is strategic clarity.

            15:53.685 –> 15:54.565

            [SPEAKER_01]: What does that one mean?

            15:55.765 –> 16:00.126

            [SPEAKER_02]: So strategy has, I think, this tendency to be a little bit scary to

            16:02.994 –> 16:09.099

            [SPEAKER_02]: I know I’m in table, but I don’t know what it is, or I know I’m in table on, so I’ve done this really complicated PowerPoint deck to explain to everybody what it is.

            16:09.679 –> 16:23.250

            [SPEAKER_02]: And so really it’s about just saying that, if you want to get somewhere and you’ve got this big ambition to do something, to arrive in a certain place in the future, how are you gonna lay out the clear kind of things you’re gonna focus on to get there?

            16:23.730 –> 16:35.699

            [SPEAKER_02]: in one page, like meet, let’s meet a one page that anybody can look at and see, oh, I get where we’re going, where we go there and how, in kind of a big picture of how we think we’re going to get to that point.

            16:36.319 –> 16:42.003

            [SPEAKER_02]: And it’s just something that I think people are a bit scared of and so and so from run away from.

            16:42.483 –> 16:48.207

            [SPEAKER_02]: So I think just having that real clarity of the business, and we’ve now had a strategic framework that fits on one piece of paper,

            16:49.248 –> 16:51.991

            [SPEAKER_02]: it’s been basically the same for about a decade.

            16:52.171 –> 16:55.434

            [SPEAKER_02]: We tweak it, but the shape of it stays the same.

            16:55.474 –> 16:57.136

            [SPEAKER_02]: It’s got consistency consistency.

            16:57.176 –> 17:00.419

            [SPEAKER_02]: Again, it’s really important in every really clear on consistent.

            17:00.839 –> 17:03.622

            [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody knows where they’re going.

            17:03.862 –> 17:06.424

            [SPEAKER_02]: Some of it has just been mystifying strategy.

            17:06.765 –> 17:08.767

            [SPEAKER_02]: I think that’s whether you’re a little business or a big business.

            17:09.627 –> 17:15.829

            [SPEAKER_02]: the same things apply, and I’ve kind of got what I think is kind of seven, seven laws of strategies it were.

            17:16.510 –> 17:20.771

            [SPEAKER_02]: And so as I say, the first one is like thinking about like what’s what’s with difference?

            17:21.492 –> 17:24.193

            [SPEAKER_02]: So, and again, this can apply to whether you’re really small business.

            17:24.593 –> 17:30.335

            [SPEAKER_02]: And don’t think of that by degree, you know, we’re better than other people are doing this and think of it by kind.

            17:30.435 –> 17:35.177

            [SPEAKER_02]: So, actually we offer this thing in a totally different way.

            17:35.957 –> 17:37.238

            [SPEAKER_02]: to everybody else in the market.

            17:37.798 –> 17:42.922

            [SPEAKER_02]: Because that’s without that, you’re just going to be part of this big Morris cloud of stuff.

            17:42.962 –> 17:45.944

            [SPEAKER_02]: You’re not going to have really much of a chance of getting anywhere.

            17:45.964 –> 17:47.005

            [SPEAKER_02]: You’re just going to take a little work.

            17:47.886 –> 17:55.692

            [SPEAKER_02]: So like the OG of strategy, this guy called Michael Porter, who kind of wrote all these kind of big strategic tokens back in the 80s.

            17:55.732 –> 17:59.634

            [SPEAKER_02]: So he kind of said, establish a difference you can preserve.

            18:00.665 –> 18:03.727

            [SPEAKER_02]: And that’s kind of the bulk of it, though the nub of it, rather, that’s the heart of it.

            18:03.747 –> 18:08.170

            [SPEAKER_02]: So whether that’s your business, it’s like, okay, so, or I was like, what’s the difference?

            18:08.730 –> 18:10.311

            [SPEAKER_02]: We’ve got how do we preserve it?

            18:10.431 –> 18:12.112

            [SPEAKER_02]: So think of like, strategy is different.

            18:12.893 –> 18:16.155

            [SPEAKER_02]: And there’s like, strategy is gonna be doing something.

            18:16.695 –> 18:19.337

            [SPEAKER_02]: So you’ve got the difference, but what are you doing, different?

            18:19.477 –> 18:20.738

            [SPEAKER_02]: And how are you deliver that thing?

            18:20.838 –> 18:23.440

            [SPEAKER_02]: How is it different from how everybody’s doing it?

            18:23.860 –> 18:26.402

            [SPEAKER_02]: So, again, it’s so poor to back to poor to young,

            18:30.064 –> 18:32.785

            [SPEAKER_02]: that deliver this unique mix of value.

            18:32.825 –> 18:33.665

            [SPEAKER_02]: That was his little quote.

            18:34.106 –> 18:38.747

            [SPEAKER_02]: So the way everything fits together is probably different from how it fits together at the place down the road.

            18:38.847 –> 18:41.849

            [SPEAKER_02]: It might do something that the young train ride looks similar.

            18:42.209 –> 18:43.369

            [SPEAKER_02]: So again, what are you doing differently?

            18:43.429 –> 18:44.049

            [SPEAKER_02]: Actually do it.

            18:44.850 –> 18:46.751

            [SPEAKER_02]: Then this idea like strategy is choice.

            18:47.191 –> 18:48.131

            [SPEAKER_02]: So you’ve got difference.

            18:48.171 –> 18:48.691

            [SPEAKER_02]: You’ve got to do it.

            18:48.711 –> 18:49.332

            [SPEAKER_02]: You’ve got choice.

            18:49.372 –> 18:50.332

            [SPEAKER_02]: You’ve got to choose.

            18:51.532 –> 18:54.093

            [SPEAKER_02]: And those choices are probably going to be painful.

            18:54.374 –> 18:54.994

            [SPEAKER_02]: And if they’re not,

            18:55.860 –> 18:59.962

            [SPEAKER_02]: You’d probably aren’t trying hard enough, you know, if you’re not saying, oh, I really want to do that.

            19:00.162 –> 19:01.082

            [SPEAKER_02]: And I really want to do that.

            19:01.222 –> 19:02.803

            [SPEAKER_02]: But I know I can even do one of them.

            19:03.323 –> 19:04.844

            [SPEAKER_02]: And so I’m not going to do the other thing.

            19:05.504 –> 19:08.425

            [SPEAKER_02]: You’re probably not being clear enough about your strategy.

            19:09.306 –> 19:11.187

            [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s a really good test yourself, right?

            19:11.507 –> 19:14.408

            [SPEAKER_02]: Even if you’re looking out the next three years, right, we’re going to do this thing.

            19:15.388 –> 19:16.629

            [SPEAKER_02]: What am I not going to do?

            19:16.649 –> 19:18.310

            [SPEAKER_02]: And does that feel painful?

            19:19.210 –> 19:25.875

            [SPEAKER_02]: And if it doesn’t feel painful, then probably you’re putting some stuff in there that you should not be doing, but you just can’t quite bear to not do it.

            19:25.995 –> 19:28.737

            [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, so make sure it’s painful, you’re choosing.

            19:29.337 –> 19:33.180

            [SPEAKER_02]: That’s what we’ve got, we’ve got difference doing choice, create it.

            19:33.640 –> 19:35.081

            [SPEAKER_02]: So again, I think lots of you think.

            19:35.461 –> 19:50.366

            [SPEAKER_02]: strategy is all about having loads of spreadsheets and numbers and loads of analysis, but actually in the first place is about being creative, the creative thinking about actually what is it we’re trying to achieve, where we’re trying to get to in the world and that’s kind of it’s imagination.

            19:50.867 –> 19:56.228

            [SPEAKER_02]: So you need the imagination bit first and because then it goes on to the fifth thing is like the killer question.

            19:56.709 –> 19:59.850

            [SPEAKER_02]: So you kind of got this different thing you’re going to be doing.

            20:00.770 –> 20:05.111

            [SPEAKER_02]: in the future, but what would need to be true for that to be the right choice?

            20:05.351 –> 20:08.432

            [SPEAKER_02]: So this is a great question, it’s from a book called Playing to Win.

            20:09.212 –> 20:11.473

            [SPEAKER_02]: It’s kind of called the reverse engineering question.

            20:11.493 –> 20:17.254

            [SPEAKER_02]: So you come up with a destination first and then you think, oh, what would have to be true for that to be a great strategy?

            20:17.634 –> 20:21.455

            [SPEAKER_02]: And then you start going back, kind of almost reversing out of that end position.

            20:21.955 –> 20:30.677

            [SPEAKER_02]: and thinking about, oh actually, it requires the world to be blue and for everybody to be kind of wondering around in a toga, then probably my strategy isn’t going to work.

            20:31.158 –> 20:34.738

            [SPEAKER_02]: So you can, you know, you can start to reveal whether it’s just wishful thinking.

            20:34.759 –> 20:35.279

            [SPEAKER_02]: That’s five.

            20:35.299 –> 20:37.479

            [SPEAKER_02]: Also, so it’s wish ski number six.

            20:37.699 –> 20:41.760

            [SPEAKER_02]: You go except strategy is going to be risky because you’re saying this is a future we want to create.

            20:42.080 –> 20:43.141

            [SPEAKER_02]: There’s no guarantees.

            20:43.161 –> 20:45.001

            [SPEAKER_02]: We’re going to have to do some stuff to get there.

            20:45.021 –> 20:45.101

            [SPEAKER_02]: So

            20:51.443 –> 20:55.404

            [SPEAKER_02]: So you’ve got to get it on a one page, because it’s more than that.

            20:55.684 –> 21:00.845

            [SPEAKER_02]: It’s not clear on concise enough for you to tell everybody in the team or get them on board and know you’re in a good place to go.

            21:00.865 –> 21:01.685

            [SPEAKER_02]: So there you go.

            21:01.705 –> 21:02.245

            [SPEAKER_02]: That’s my seven.

            21:02.965 –> 21:03.665

            [SPEAKER_01]: Very nice.

            21:03.725 –> 21:04.245

            [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

            21:04.405 –> 21:13.687

            [SPEAKER_01]: And the way it kind of goes crazy wide and then pulls itself back in, which is obviously the process you need to go through to actually create a good strategy.

            21:14.027 –> 21:14.747

            [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, completely.

            21:15.107 –> 21:18.268

            [SPEAKER_01]: How often, you said about it hasn’t really changed in 10 years.

            21:21.542 –> 21:22.483

            [SPEAKER_02]: That’s the framework.

            21:22.523 –> 21:25.065

            [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, the strategy isn’t that different there.

            21:25.185 –> 21:31.150

            [SPEAKER_02]: You know, is it like say it’s involved a bit, but we again, we have a really good risen to how it works.

            21:31.210 –> 21:35.974

            [SPEAKER_02]: And again, I think it was in your business if you get into a risen, that makes sense.

            21:36.054 –> 21:39.157

            [SPEAKER_02]: So we are finally here runs first of April, first of April.

            21:39.697 –> 21:54.629

            [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, usually in June, we’ll get together as the kind of the senior team to talk about the strategy, but you have a few days out and we’ll be looking definitely much further ahead, but into that, into that process, we’ll have taken soundings from across the business.

            21:55.109 –> 21:58.232

            [SPEAKER_02]: Then we’ll come out of that with some thoughts about why actually what do we need to be looking at?

            21:58.292 –> 22:08.542

            [SPEAKER_02]: So we’ll go away do some more work over the summer, come back in the water museum around October time to narrow down if you like our strategic choices for the next year into more of a plan.

            22:09.102 –> 22:15.248

            [SPEAKER_02]: Then we’re going to budgeting through the winter, launch it in the spring cycle starts again.

            22:15.608 –> 22:16.449

            [SPEAKER_02]: But that kind of

            22:17.550 –> 22:33.428

            [SPEAKER_02]: risen to it really works and again you’re kind of then you can look far out come back in closer a bit look far out again so having just that system that works means everybody’s on the same rhythm and it’s not haphazard and it obviously feeds into budgeting but it does help.

            22:34.205 –> 22:47.289

            [SPEAKER_01]: And you clearly would that rhythm give in yourself time to sense check as the deliverables and the actions that are going to be taken to achieve this strategy get decided.

            22:47.369 –> 22:54.050

            [SPEAKER_01]: It’s not like, oh yes, in December, on the first we have a meeting on the second we ask the team, on the third we do this.

            22:54.210 –> 22:55.511

            [SPEAKER_01]: It’s a drawn out space.

            22:55.551 –> 22:59.592

            [SPEAKER_01]: There’s time to investigate research, sense check and so on.

            23:00.155 –> 23:02.056

            [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, there’s genuinely no surprise.

            23:02.096 –> 23:05.537

            [SPEAKER_02]: By the time it comes to actually having to do stuff, there’s zero surprises.

            23:06.077 –> 23:08.838

            [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes, in May, you’re not going to talk to other businesses.

            23:08.858 –> 23:13.499

            [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know, quite big, you know, maybe not huge, but, you know, maybe 10, 20 million.

            23:13.819 –> 23:16.940

            [SPEAKER_02]: As like, oh, yeah, we kind of, we do what you were just saying.

            23:17.140 –> 23:22.822

            [SPEAKER_02]: We have a meeting on December 1st, quickly sign off the budget and then tell everybody on like the first of January.

            23:22.862 –> 23:24.103

            [SPEAKER_02]: Here’s the plan for the year or anything.

            23:24.183 –> 23:24.543

            [SPEAKER_02]: Cheese.

            23:25.063 –> 23:25.563

            [SPEAKER_02]: poor people.

            23:25.943 –> 23:35.008

            [SPEAKER_02]: Again, it’s like making everybody feel like inside us, so they know what’s coming, they know the kind of the biggest use that you’re dealing, you’re wrestling with, the choices you’re trying to make.

            23:35.568 –> 23:43.532

            [SPEAKER_02]: And so it’s not just no surprises for the kind of people at the top, it’s no surprises for anybody, because hopefully they’ve been brought into that process that always through.

            23:43.652 –> 23:51.856

            [SPEAKER_02]: And importantly, had the opportunity to throw in their ideas, and they’re kind of to pen it’s worth about, I can’t believe you’re not doing X, Y, as it’s, you know, give people that

            23:53.180 –> 24:00.625

            [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it’s, and we all know fundamentally that we are programmed as human beings to be more into things that we had a role in creating.

            24:00.826 –> 24:04.648

            [SPEAKER_01]: So it’s simply will help deliver better at the end of it all.

            24:04.688 –> 24:07.831

            [SPEAKER_01]: Now the third one, brand vitality.

            24:07.851 –> 24:13.515

            [SPEAKER_01]: I mean clearly built by both of the two pieces you’ve already taken us through, but how does this one function?

            24:14.058 –> 24:21.765

            [SPEAKER_02]: So I think this has done all about how do you take, you know, you’ve got the nice clear strategy, you’ve got the team that’s hopefully then energized around it.

            24:22.306 –> 24:27.651

            [SPEAKER_02]: And then it’s what it’s how do you take that out to the world in a way that is going to really resonate?

            24:28.051 –> 24:34.257

            [SPEAKER_02]: And so I, you know, unsurprisingly from what we’re being through, I’m kind of this big believer in that brands work from into our that kind of

            24:34.837 –> 24:39.600

            [SPEAKER_02]: that you really have to feel it inside before you can hope for anybody to feel it outside.

            24:39.660 –> 24:45.723

            [SPEAKER_02]: So genuinely that that real kind of cultural strength is what filters through to people in the outside world.

            24:46.083 –> 24:51.946

            [SPEAKER_02]: And so then it’s all about just thinking about, okay, so how do we make that story resonate with our target customers?

            24:52.046 –> 24:55.008

            [SPEAKER_02]: What is it that’s really going to connect with them on a emotional level?

            24:55.728 –> 25:03.833

            [SPEAKER_02]: And again, we, we at Cook, we’re big into kind of this idea of community and that actually what we’re doing here, yeah, we’re Craig, we’re workplace community for us at Cook.

            25:03.933 –> 25:06.754

            [SPEAKER_02]: But actually, wherever we have a shot, we’re part of a community.

            25:07.295 –> 25:14.179

            [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we’re part of, we’re there, we’re physically there and how can we contribute to that community, how can people connect with us through it?

            25:14.659 –> 25:30.231

            [SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, in the virtual space or in the e-commerce space, again, how does that become a community where people can actually participate, not just purchase, but actually feel like they’re part of something that’s both important to them because they love the products, but important to the wider world.

            25:30.351 –> 25:35.235

            [SPEAKER_02]: So, it’s just kind of having that real kind of like, say, vitality is a lovely way of thinking about it.

            25:35.575 –> 25:38.137

            [SPEAKER_02]: How does your brand really have life in it?

            25:38.198 –> 25:39.298

            [SPEAKER_02]: Where does that life come from?

            25:39.398 –> 25:41.060

            [SPEAKER_02]: So many brands we can to feel tired.

            25:41.681 –> 25:47.157

            [SPEAKER_02]: You can usually tell where there’s life from where there isn’t, so that really comes across, that kind of that fear is that a great brand hat.

            25:48.092 –> 25:57.756

            [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like, you’ve built the strategic clarity for the business and then the cultural energy is all about bringing the team together and making sure everyone’s in the right place.

            25:57.816 –> 26:03.318

            [SPEAKER_01]: And then the brand vitality is almost flipping the mirror from the internal view to the external view.

            26:03.338 –> 26:10.921

            [SPEAKER_01]: Because you’re talking about getting the customers involved and getting that, I’m not even going to bother asking you, do you get customer feedback when you product ideas?

            26:10.941 –> 26:12.902

            [SPEAKER_01]: Because blatantly it’ll be insane if you didn’t.

            26:12.962 –> 26:13.682

            [SPEAKER_01]: It’s a stupid question.

            26:14.262 –> 26:19.417

            [SPEAKER_02]: And we could always get more to be honest, I think, you know, parts of space is one of those things that you can never get too much in a way.

            26:20.094 –> 26:26.038

            [SPEAKER_01]: for anyone who’s listening to this and who’s thinking, yeah, I get it, but I’ve no idea how to make it happen.

            26:27.079 –> 26:34.744

            [SPEAKER_01]: Where do they start on building more sane strategy culture and brand vitality into their business?

            26:35.264 –> 26:41.528

            [SPEAKER_01]: Because a lot of businesses play tick box activity with this so we’ve done the strategy, Chuck it in the draw.

            26:41.568 –> 26:43.689

            [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we’ve got cultural stuff going on.

            26:43.749 –> 26:44.870

            [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, we know what the brand is.

            26:45.250 –> 26:48.032

            [SPEAKER_01]: How do they make it a living, breathing thing?

            26:48.072 –> 26:49.133

            [SPEAKER_01]: Where does that start?

            26:50.172 –> 26:56.395

            [SPEAKER_02]: It’s always starts with kind of sitting down and being really hard with yourself to a degree.

            26:56.555 –> 27:03.679

            [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, scraping away all the kind of the little eyes you tell yourself about how great things are.

            27:04.179 –> 27:05.720

            [SPEAKER_02]: And say, let’s really.

            27:06.868 –> 27:09.531

            [SPEAKER_02]: do we have a really clear strategy?

            27:09.892 –> 27:13.015

            [SPEAKER_02]: And could I go out of this room and tell somebody what it was?

            27:13.676 –> 27:16.540

            [SPEAKER_02]: I would day then think, oh, that sounds awesome.

            27:16.600 –> 27:18.122

            [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn’t be part of that.

            27:18.242 –> 27:24.970

            [SPEAKER_02]: So it really starts with how trees being prepared to do that, asking yourself those tough questions, confront the brutal facts.

            27:25.030 –> 27:25.751

            [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was how,

            27:26.852 –> 27:33.881

            [SPEAKER_02]: who says that his name’s come from my head, good to great guy, Jim Collins, confront the brutal facts, is such a wonderful phrase.

            27:34.402 –> 27:37.126

            [SPEAKER_02]: So take away all that stuff that says, we think we’re the best of doing this.

            27:38.022 –> 27:39.502

            [SPEAKER_02]: really are we?

            27:39.822 –> 27:40.803

            [SPEAKER_02]: Is there evidence for that?

            27:41.043 –> 27:42.723

            [SPEAKER_02]: What’s the real objective truth about it?

            27:42.783 –> 27:52.665

            [SPEAKER_02]: So just you’ve got to start by being honest and then come for yourselves with the fact that it’s not as hard as people might make out that it’s just it’s just a process you can go through.

            27:53.145 –> 27:56.346

            [SPEAKER_02]: You might need a bit help but you’ll get there, you’ll get through that process.

            27:57.086 –> 28:05.027

            [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes the little magic needs to come in the end, you know, brand in particular, something where some people are great, some people are less good but you can always find help to bring those things to life.

            28:08.088 –> 28:09.308

            [SPEAKER_02]: but don’t believe your own bullshit.

            28:09.428 –> 28:12.469

            [SPEAKER_02]: It’s that, you know, we all love to delude ourselves about how great we are.

            28:12.489 –> 28:13.089

            [SPEAKER_02]: Of course we do.

            28:13.549 –> 28:16.990

            [SPEAKER_02]: So just start by confronting the brutal facts and go from there.

            28:17.190 –> 28:18.091

            [SPEAKER_02]: Don’t get depressed.

            28:18.151 –> 28:18.771

            [SPEAKER_02]: That’s the tough thing.

            28:18.791 –> 28:20.871

            [SPEAKER_02]: Confirm the group, but don’t get depressed.

            28:20.931 –> 28:27.593

            [SPEAKER_02]: Because that Jim Collins thing was all built on the fact that confront the brutal facts was a guy who is a prisoner of war and Vietnam.

            28:28.293 –> 28:30.253

            [SPEAKER_02]: And he was, you know, he was tortured.

            28:30.293 –> 28:35.755

            [SPEAKER_02]: He was there as being held captive and he noticed that actually the people who were really optimistic and said would be home by Christmas.

            28:36.670 –> 28:41.112

            [SPEAKER_02]: though they’re once you suffer to most, they were a meeky dissolution, they were really struggled.

            28:41.912 –> 28:44.052

            [SPEAKER_02]: The people who just said, oh, I’m never going to get out of here.

            28:45.593 –> 29:03.999

            [SPEAKER_02]: We’re doomed again, they suffered, but the people who confronted the reality if they were in, but didn’t lose hope that they would get out, that confronted the brutal facts, but then always having that belief that they would get out, those are the people who actually persevered, came out of it the best of the other end.

            29:06.640 –> 29:07.240

            [SPEAKER_02]: Don’t lose hope.

            29:10.303 –> 29:15.086

            [SPEAKER_00]: Ecommerce Masterplan is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the Ecommerce sector.

            29:15.226 –> 29:23.351

            [SPEAKER_00]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

            29:23.512 –> 29:25.373

            [SPEAKER_00]: It’s time for the top tips round.

            29:27.995 –> 29:33.158

            [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I love this section because me and Honest are some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level.

            29:33.218 –> 29:34.779

            [SPEAKER_01]: James, are you ready for the top tips?

            29:35.440 –> 29:35.720

            [SPEAKER_02]: I’m ready.

            29:36.455 –> 29:41.678

            [SPEAKER_01]: I’m not sure I should ask you the first one, because you’ve given us so many great book recommendations already, but let’s do it.

            29:42.018 –> 29:48.201

            [SPEAKER_01]: The book talk tip, if everyone listening to this podcast, agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better.

            29:48.681 –> 29:49.902

            [SPEAKER_01]: Which book would you recommend?

            29:50.800 –> 29:55.802

            [SPEAKER_02]: So all you have to say is I’ll listen to everybody’s cheated and picked to so I’m going to pick to it.

            29:55.822 –> 29:55.983

            [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

            29:56.583 –> 29:57.763

            [SPEAKER_02]: So one to read.

            29:57.983 –> 29:58.624

            [SPEAKER_02]: So one to read.

            29:58.644 –> 30:02.686

            [SPEAKER_02]: So this is this is a good place to start if you’re kind of feeling like you don’t have the strategy.

            30:03.566 –> 30:07.268

            [SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful little book called No Bullshit Strategy by Alex Smith.

            30:08.153 –> 30:14.015

            [SPEAKER_02]: You don’t have to agree with it, but the questions it will pose to you will be worthwhile going through it.

            30:14.455 –> 30:19.036

            [SPEAKER_02]: Great book, literally really small, well, won’t tell you all day, but the questions are great.

            30:19.436 –> 30:20.696

            [SPEAKER_02]: And then a book to listen to.

            30:20.756 –> 30:26.538

            [SPEAKER_02]: So my favorite audiobook I’m listening to this year is called Story’s Cell, by God called Matthew Dix.

            30:27.458 –> 30:35.080

            [SPEAKER_02]: And it’s brilliant because it shows you how the power of personal storytelling can transform your business.

            30:36.037 –> 30:42.582

            [SPEAKER_02]: And it’s great in all your, because he is just, he lived a crazy life, and he tells a mean story.

            30:43.143 –> 30:49.968

            [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s great to listen to, because it’s just so engaging, but it will give you this idea that I could tell stories to really put my business to life.

            30:50.709 –> 30:57.294

            [SPEAKER_01]: Such a good piece of advice for this year, because story is we all know creative and stories becoming ever so more important.

            30:57.514 –> 30:58.855

            [SPEAKER_01]: Love those two, thank you.

            30:59.576 –> 31:04.840

            [SPEAKER_01]: The traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either prize above all others, or think doesn’t get the press it deserves.

            31:05.998 –> 31:22.533

            [SPEAKER_02]: without an email and again I just I can’t see why anybody wouldn’t be noticing them in love with the opportunities there are from email to build great customer relationships so we have a huge email list we have an amazing engagement and that’s how you create a direct relationship with your customer.

            31:23.373 –> 31:28.438

            [SPEAKER_01]: It is mad how people think email isn’t worth doing I just but befuddles me.

            31:29.143 –> 31:30.164

            [SPEAKER_02]: Me too, me too.

            31:30.424 –> 31:38.271

            [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the interesting thing that is to then view email not just as a selling marketing and sales too, tour, but as a relationship building tour.

            31:38.351 –> 31:43.335

            [SPEAKER_02]: I’m recognized that hardly anybody in the world wants to get email from your business every week.

            31:43.355 –> 31:44.716

            [SPEAKER_02]: They just don’t care about that much.

            31:45.136 –> 31:48.659

            [SPEAKER_02]: So what is it that you’re offering in that email that gives him a something else?

            31:48.759 –> 31:50.801

            [SPEAKER_02]: That is that sense of who you are as a brand.

            31:50.841 –> 31:51.862

            [SPEAKER_02]: That’s that brand of ITZY.

            31:51.882 –> 31:57.706

            [SPEAKER_02]: What makes your brand come to life is going to be useful and to tating for somebody and is inspiring a product.

            31:58.467 –> 32:00.929

            [SPEAKER_02]: and email is just such a wonderful way to create that connection.

            32:02.230 –> 32:06.094

            [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you’re preaching to the conversation in me, but hopefully we’ve converted a few more of the audience.

            32:06.735 –> 32:16.944

            [SPEAKER_01]: A tall top tip, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plug in a phone-up or just a way of working, is there a cool little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day?

            32:17.484 –> 32:24.510

            [SPEAKER_02]: So this is a culture tool and it is potentially revolutionary for your business and it is

            32:26.130 –> 32:33.673

            [SPEAKER_02]: a postcard, send somebody in your team, a postcard, telling them how much you appreciate them and what for.

            32:34.373 –> 32:40.956

            [SPEAKER_02]: And just watch the appreciation, bloom and multiply within your team within your culture.

            32:41.836 –> 32:42.636

            [SPEAKER_02]: Right, somebody in note.

            32:43.536 –> 32:45.477

            [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, would you deliver it in person?

            32:45.497 –> 32:49.759

            [SPEAKER_01]: Or would you literally send it through the post, chuck a stamp on it and let it be a proper surprise?

            32:50.199 –> 32:51.920

            [SPEAKER_02]: I think through the post is always better.

            32:52.480 –> 32:54.481

            [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, the price of a stamp these days.

            32:56.272 –> 32:58.855

            [SPEAKER_02]: but make it physical, don’t make it an email.

            32:59.056 –> 33:09.449

            [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you really can’t do the whole filler because any of us better nothing, but you know, there’s so much power in that sense of a handwritten note that just says, you did this thing amazing.

            33:09.509 –> 33:11.532

            [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I really appreciate it.

            33:11.732 –> 33:13.034

            [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for being on the team.

            33:14.092 –> 33:18.835

            [SPEAKER_02]: that will pay you back in spades and you know so there’s a guy he did at C.A.

            33:18.895 –> 33:24.719

            [SPEAKER_02]: Campbell Soup reckoned he sent 30,000 notes over the space of like eight and nine years.

            33:25.459 –> 33:32.444

            [SPEAKER_02]: Because there’s such a powerful tool to kind of bring people with you to make people feel, feel noticed, notice to firm the needed.

            33:32.744 –> 33:37.327

            [SPEAKER_02]: I’d great little three things why people people feel they matter when they’re noticed to firm the needed.

            33:38.252 –> 33:38.813

            [SPEAKER_01]: Nice.

            33:39.574 –> 33:42.457

            [SPEAKER_01]: That’s like two two tool tips there, I like it.

            33:43.438 –> 33:48.543

            [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the carbon top tip, what’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

            33:49.164 –> 33:54.009

            [SPEAKER_02]: So I think the reality is, in e-commerce, it’s is the stuff you sell.

            33:54.710 –> 33:56.231

            [SPEAKER_02]: That’s the little carbon footprint.

            33:56.791 –> 34:00.612

            [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that’s your knowledge business, of course, but so think about that first.

            34:01.233 –> 34:05.634

            [SPEAKER_02]: And if you thought about that, so just reuse packaging is such an obvious thing.

            34:05.674 –> 34:16.598

            [SPEAKER_02]: So, so while our local delivery business, we reuse all the boxes that are food is delivered to the shops in, so then somebody buys online, similar from the shop, we reuse those boxes.

            34:17.179 –> 34:19.820

            [SPEAKER_02]: And I brought one because I couldn’t remember because so there’s a box,

            34:21.015 –> 34:28.361

            [SPEAKER_02]: I’m showing Chloe, lovely cookbox, and on the top it says, because this is the Harrison Ford of Carble boxes.

            34:29.001 –> 34:31.503

            [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, it’s a bit rough around the edges, but it’s loved.

            34:31.824 –> 34:32.904

            [SPEAKER_02]: It’s got tails to tell.

            34:33.645 –> 34:36.788

            [SPEAKER_02]: Before we are home delivery, it was used to get food from our kitchens to our shops.

            34:37.008 –> 34:40.310

            [SPEAKER_02]: We’re using it means we can cut down on packaging and save carbon emissions.

            34:40.811 –> 34:43.093

            [SPEAKER_02]: After all, it’s what’s inside the caps.

            34:43.953 –> 34:48.557

            [SPEAKER_02]: So again, turning a reused box into a lovely little bit of brand-fightality.

            34:49.385 –> 35:03.128

            [SPEAKER_01]: love that and it’s a very it’s a very good looking reuse box listeners I couldn’t I can confirm so James thank you so much for that before we say goodbye could you please let the listeners know where they can find you and cook on the web and social please.

            35:03.819 –> 35:17.823

            [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, so hopefully there will be a cook near to you in the UK or find us online at CookFood.net and that you can find me on LinkedIn just so that’s where James Rutter or my own website is James-rutter.com.

            35:18.223 –> 35:24.565

            [SPEAKER_01]: And via James-rutter.com, you’re helping a few businesses follow this strategic process as well aren’t you, I believe?

            35:25.225 –> 35:29.807

            [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that’s right, so I now spit my time between Cook three days a week and do my

            35:31.330 –> 35:32.131

            [SPEAKER_01]: very cool.

            35:32.151 –> 35:33.032

            [SPEAKER_01]: So get in touch.

            35:33.132 –> 35:35.374

            [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody if you are intrigued and interested.

            35:35.754 –> 35:37.636

            [SPEAKER_01]: Jane, thank you so much for coming on the show.

            35:37.656 –> 35:46.504

            [SPEAKER_01]: It has been fascinating seeing how you and the team at Kirk have built such an impressive performance over the last few years.

            35:46.584 –> 35:48.445

            [SPEAKER_01]: So I’m thank you so much for being up for sharing it.

            35:49.106 –> 35:49.707

            [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Chloe.

            35:49.727 –> 35:50.007

            [SPEAKER_02]: Love that.

            35:55.771 –> 36:07.976

            [SPEAKER_01]: So if anyone thinking of getting in touch with James for your help on his strategy or your strategy rather, he just grilled me, properly grilled me, both post-podcast and in like 10 minutes, I got a little really interesting insight.

            36:07.996 –> 36:13.899

            [SPEAKER_01]: So I would highly recommend speaking to James about your strategic challenges, right?

            36:13.939 –> 36:16.080

            [SPEAKER_01]: So back to the podcast, what were we just talking about?

            36:16.180 –> 36:21.502

            [SPEAKER_01]: James is taking us through the three key elements that Kirk have used over the last

            36:24.503 –> 36:31.305

            [SPEAKER_01]: strategic clarity, cultural energy and brand vitality, and as you’ve just listened to it, you know how well those three weave together.

            36:31.445 –> 36:44.950

            [SPEAKER_01]: I particularly liked his seven parts to building that strategic clarity in the way it kind of opened up your minds to different things and then subtly close it back down again to really drill down towards actually going to work.

            36:45.010 –> 36:45.110

            [SPEAKER_01]: So

            36:45.690 –> 36:49.171

            [SPEAKER_01]: thoroughly enjoyed my chat with James really please we could get him on the show.

            36:49.191 –> 37:02.994

            [SPEAKER_01]: You can get your hands on our notes from this episode including those top tips, all those many books he referenced during it, a juicy book reference is there, and the links to what we mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterplanned.com.

            37:03.454 –> 37:05.975

            [SPEAKER_01]: You can also use our direct-to-episode short links.

            37:06.675 –> 37:09.876

            [SPEAKER_01]: So ECMP.info forward slash the number of the

            37:15.857 –> 37:18.858

            [SPEAKER_01]: When you get to the website, you can also add yourself to our email list.

            37:18.938 –> 37:20.258

            [SPEAKER_01]: Go on, you know you want to.

            37:20.738 –> 37:36.323

            [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if you like this episode, then make sure you check out episode 554 with Ian McBeth from Oak furniture land, yes, another massive bricks and clicks business here in the UK, where we cover a lot of similar topics and a lot of other topics too.

            37:36.923 –> 37:42.925

            [SPEAKER_01]: And if you want to listen to more big businesses on the show, then head to ECMP.info forward slash big.

            37:43.445 –> 37:47.286

            [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in to this and every episode of the e-commerce master plan podcast.

            37:47.646 –> 37:58.149

            [SPEAKER_01]: I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help e-commerce business owners like you to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including progressing along the path to net zero.

            37:58.549 –> 38:04.511

            [SPEAKER_01]: So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast.

            38:04.871 –> 38:07.612

            [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

            38:10.875 –> 38:14.160

            [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the eCommerce MasterBland podcast.

            38:14.640 –> 38:19.427

            [SPEAKER_00]: Find out more at eCommercemasterpland.com Slash podcast.

            39 min
          • eCommerce MasterPlan | 563: iFIT’s 4-Bucket Framework: How to Build a Subscription Business That Lasts

            Jeremy McCarty is the Chief Subscription and Content Officer of iFIT, a global leader in connected fitness via their NordicTrack, Pro-form, and Freemotion brands. 

            In this episode, Jeremy reveals the proven framework he uses to build and scale subscription success at iFIT — a strategy that helps attract the right customers, keep them engaged, and grow loyalty over time.

            He shares how iFIT blends product, content, and customer insight to create a subscription experience that keeps people coming back month after month.

            Listen in to discover the key pillars behind his approach (including the 4-Bucket Framework) — and how you can apply them to your own eCommerce business.

            Hit PLAY to hear: 

            • The exact 4-bucket framework Jeremy uses to grow iFIT’s subscription business. 
            • Why retention is the real growth driver (and how to stop churn before it starts). 
            • How “magical firsts” can keep new customers hooked from day one. 
            • The bold content strategy that makes iFIT stand out from every other fitness brand. 
            • How AI personalizes the user experience — and why it matters for engagement. 
            • The simple mindset shift every eCommerce brand needs to build loyal subscribers. 

              •  

              Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

              [03:05] Building Long-Term Customer Relationships 

              [06:42] “Start with the Customer” 

              [12:44] Expanding Fitness Innovations to All 

              [16:26] Jeremy’s 4-Bucket Framework 

              [17:55] “Delivering Value in First Impressions” 

              [23:27] Listen to Jeremy’s Top Tips! 

               

              Full episode notes here: https://ecmp.info/563  

              —

              Download our ebook… https://ecmp.info/ebook 500 Tips to Increase Your Profits

              Get all the links and resources we mention and join our email list at https://ecmp.info

              Love the show? Chloe would love your feedback – leave a review here: https://ecmp.info/review or reply to the episode QandA on Spotify.

              Interested in being a Sponsor? go here: https://ecmp.info/sponsor

              Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

              Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

              WEBVTT

              00:00.051 –> 00:08.178

              [SPEAKER_02]: You can bring in loads of new customers, but if your existing customers are leaving at a higher rate, then it’s really hard to grow.

              00:08.898 –> 00:20.368

              [SPEAKER_02]: And so really what you have to do is you have to focus on both parts, attracting the right customers important, but keeping every customer and thinking that every customer matters is also important.

              00:23.334 –> 00:25.698

              [SPEAKER_01]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

              00:26.259 –> 00:30.345

              [SPEAKER_01]: Here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

              00:30.866 –> 00:36.394

              [SPEAKER_01]: Cutting through the highly to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond.

              00:36.654 –> 00:38.658

              [SPEAKER_01]: Here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

              00:41.972 –> 00:43.173

              [SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome.

              00:43.193 –> 00:44.454

              [SPEAKER_00]: It’s great to have you here.

              00:44.514 –> 00:48.496

              [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

              00:48.916 –> 00:54.780

              [SPEAKER_00]: So we’re going a tad left field for this one, getting into the world of fitness and subscriptions.

              00:55.360 –> 01:04.406

              [SPEAKER_00]: Because when Nordic tracks chief subscription officer asked to be on the show, you say yes, you say yes Jeremy, come on my show and you will not be disappointed.

              01:04.426 –> 01:07.448

              [SPEAKER_00]: We weren’t disappointed recording it and Jeremy is super insightful.

              01:08.248 –> 01:12.031

              [SPEAKER_00]: You know how much I love learning from slightly different areas of business.

              01:12.051 –> 01:13.552

              [SPEAKER_00]: So this is definitely one of those.

              01:13.592 –> 01:24.219

              [SPEAKER_00]: We’re talking about a digital product in the world of subscription, but I know anyone in e-commerce does that dance of retention, acquisition, retention, acquisition will subscription solve my problems.

              01:24.279 –> 01:25.420

              [SPEAKER_00]: Well, today’s guest,

              01:26.240 –> 01:35.042

              [SPEAKER_00]: is going to be taking us through what it takes to run a successful subscription product, keeping your customer subscribed, recruiting them in the first place.

              01:35.542 –> 01:46.385

              [SPEAKER_00]: We will be talking about why the product is so important and how you go about getting that right, he will be sharing his four buckets for a successful subscription product.

              01:46.445 –> 01:52.326

              [SPEAKER_00]: I’m not going to tell you what they are, you’re going to have to keep listening and we’re going to basically all the key factors you

              01:56.047 –> 01:56.868

              [SPEAKER_00]: within your business.

              01:57.548 –> 01:58.749

              [SPEAKER_00]: Super fascinating guest.

              01:58.829 –> 02:01.371

              [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and some truly brilliant top tips.

              02:01.391 –> 02:03.553

              [SPEAKER_00]: So make sure you listen right the way through to the end.

              02:08.436 –> 02:10.758

              [SPEAKER_00]: And now to introduce our special guest.

              02:11.098 –> 02:21.866

              [SPEAKER_00]: Jeremy McCarty is the Chief Subscription and Content Officer of I-Fit, a global leader in connected fitness via their Nordic track, Proform, and Free Motion Brands.

              02:21.986 –> 02:22.867

              [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, Jeremy.

              02:24.708 –> 02:37.236

              [SPEAKER_00]: I’m good, really excited to have you here because I know a lot of our audience are intrigued and also probably frustrated by subscription, so to have some of your caliber on to chat about it is awesome.

              02:37.296 –> 02:40.798

              [SPEAKER_00]: How did you get into the world of e-commerce and subscription in the first place?

              02:41.220 –> 02:43.580

              [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, first let me say, it’s awesome to be here.

              02:43.880 –> 02:45.541

              [SPEAKER_02]: Super glad to be on the show.

              02:45.561 –> 02:50.382

              [SPEAKER_02]: I have been a listener myself, so it’s great to be on the other end of it, so this is great.

              02:50.402 –> 02:52.762

              [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you asked about e-commerce.

              02:52.942 –> 02:56.343

              [SPEAKER_02]: I’d love to tell you how I got into subscription if that would be great.

              02:56.843 –> 03:02.264

              [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, look at the start of my career, I actually worked in the hard work business.

              03:02.424 –> 03:04.764

              [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, it was really in consumer electronics.

              03:05.264 –> 03:08.965

              [SPEAKER_02]: We were selling televisions, computers, all of those sorts of things and the like,

              03:09.865 –> 03:24.075

              [SPEAKER_02]: And as you might imagine, one of the challenges that we’ve had is a business is that once you make a sale at the television or a computer, whatever it might be, the engagement was generally over with the customer, right?

              03:24.756 –> 03:35.444

              [SPEAKER_02]: And you had to fight really hard to get people to come back into your store, whether it was online or in the physical stores, to make the next purchase

              03:38.946 –> 03:51.035

              [SPEAKER_02]: So the business problem that we saw from all of this was that that all of that time and energy and money that you may that you spent on this was to get one sale, right?

              03:51.075 –> 03:53.857

              [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, really kind of thought of like, there’s gotta be a better way.

              03:54.237 –> 03:56.940

              [SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn’t it be better if you could monetize a relationship?

              03:57.700 –> 04:04.965

              [SPEAKER_02]: with a customer over months and years versus just one time for a single item or a handful of items.

              04:05.786 –> 04:13.151

              [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, really at the end of the day that would make your marketing money work a lot harder, it would be way more efficient, your time and energy would be more efficient.

              04:13.851 –> 04:24.299

              [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, so at the end of the day, I really wanted to find a way to create a longer lasting, deeper connection with customers, even if it started from a hardware transactional business.

              04:24.862 –> 04:29.985

              [SPEAKER_00]: So the beginning was to solve the perennial challenge of customer retention fee.

              04:30.305 –> 04:30.945

              [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, correct.

              04:31.225 –> 04:34.927

              [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that and I would say, you know, the challenge was in a hardware business.

              04:34.987 –> 04:36.028

              [SPEAKER_02]: It’s very transactional.

              04:36.228 –> 04:37.309

              [SPEAKER_02]: You purchase a thing.

              04:37.529 –> 04:38.569

              [SPEAKER_02]: The customer goes away.

              04:38.589 –> 04:39.730

              [SPEAKER_02]: You hope they come back.

              04:39.770 –> 04:41.591

              [SPEAKER_02]: He spend a lot of money to hope they come back.

              04:42.171 –> 04:45.253

              [SPEAKER_02]: In a subscription business, you’re with them every month.

              04:45.793 –> 04:46.073

              [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

              04:46.453 –> 04:50.455

              [SPEAKER_02]: And you have to continually deliver value to them every single month.

              04:50.676 –> 04:54.177

              [SPEAKER_02]: But you have an ongoing relationship and a lot of ways as a business.

              04:54.718 –> 05:00.541

              [SPEAKER_02]: You have this relationship with them where they’re going to look to you first before they do go elsewhere.

              05:00.561 –> 05:09.765

              [SPEAKER_02]: And that was really the problem that, you know, one of the, one of the solves is creating a long-term engagement through kind of crafting digital first experiences.

              05:10.486 –> 05:12.327

              [SPEAKER_02]: And it started with hardware products.

              05:12.987 –> 05:18.171

              [SPEAKER_02]: Then I layered in subscriptions really as an attachment to the hardware business.

              05:18.871 –> 05:29.619

              [SPEAKER_02]: And then eventually I found ways to really lead with the subscription where the hardware was even maybe a part of the subscription and the focus was the subscription not the hardware.

              05:30.163 –> 05:30.303

              [SPEAKER_00]: you.

              05:30.343 –> 05:45.116

              [SPEAKER_00]: So now you’ve been at I-Fit for about 12 months, I think, is that you’ve done a full year, but when you started you were their first ever person with both the word chief and officer and the word subscription in the job title.

              05:45.136 –> 05:53.223

              [SPEAKER_00]: So you’re the first super senior person who cared about who really cared about subscriptions, not just throw any shade on the rest of the seesweet there.

              05:53.823 –> 05:59.807

              [SPEAKER_00]: How do you start with that when you come into a business as big as I fit with so much going on?

              06:00.127 –> 06:04.831

              [SPEAKER_00]: And you’re this this kind of talisman for a whole new business strategy.

              06:04.991 –> 06:10.054

              [SPEAKER_02]: Well, first of all, I would say I have the good fortune of working in company that’s been around for 50 years, right?

              06:10.114 –> 06:10.755

              [SPEAKER_02]: Nordie track.

              06:11.395 –> 06:27.740

              [SPEAKER_02]: Proform, I fit, my company’s been around for 50 years, we’re celebrating that this year, and they get the good benefit of working inside of a company that’s been thinking about how to deliver awesome experiences to our customers, which we call athletes, by the way, every day for 50 years.

              06:27.840 –> 06:35.102

              [SPEAKER_02]: So we have a wonderful leadership team that I’ve got a chance to join, and they kind of did all of the work.

              06:35.931 –> 06:41.337

              [SPEAKER_02]: kind of up to that point that allowed me to come in and do what I do now is that that’s the first thing I would say.

              06:42.058 –> 06:43.320

              [SPEAKER_02]: But the where do you start?

              06:43.700 –> 06:45.683

              [SPEAKER_02]: It’s really, really simple.

              06:46.203 –> 06:47.124

              [SPEAKER_02]: You start with a customer.

              06:48.148 –> 07:11.842

              [SPEAKER_02]: hundred percent you start with what again what we call our athlete you start with the athlete and you really understand their needs at the end of the day when you build a subscription business customers get a chance to stay with you or leave you every single month every single month they get a chance to say am I getting the value that I need out of this is there something more that I want am I getting new things or is everything getting old for me

              07:12.202 –> 07:13.483

              [SPEAKER_02]: do I need something different?

              07:13.803 –> 07:15.785

              [SPEAKER_02]: Have my needs changed as an athlete?

              07:15.825 –> 07:17.125

              [SPEAKER_02]: Do I or as a subscriber?

              07:17.506 –> 07:18.907

              [SPEAKER_02]: Do I need something different?

              07:19.267 –> 07:24.871

              [SPEAKER_02]: So if you start with the customer, if you start with the subscriber needs, what are you offering?

              07:25.271 –> 07:26.172

              [SPEAKER_02]: What do they need?

              07:26.852 –> 07:30.014

              [SPEAKER_02]: And really ultimately, what does the marketplace look like?

              07:30.715 –> 07:34.757

              [SPEAKER_02]: And how do you sort of situationally set up different than the others?

              07:35.378 –> 07:35.718

              [SPEAKER_02]: That’s where

              07:41.742 –> 07:52.391

              [SPEAKER_02]: a road map for delivering your customer’s needs and I like to think about the subscription business and as it relates to customer’s needs as a little bit like the ocean.

              07:52.972 –> 07:55.274

              [SPEAKER_02]: It’s just constantly one way after another, right?

              07:55.314 –> 07:56.335

              [SPEAKER_02]: Like it’s never done.

              07:56.535 –> 07:58.036

              [SPEAKER_02]: There’s always another set of needs.

              07:58.056 –> 08:01.179

              [SPEAKER_02]: There’s always another set of customers that need something slightly different.

              08:01.639 –> 08:16.034

              [SPEAKER_02]: Technology changes, the industry changes, you have a competitor in your space that launch just something new and different that might be better than what you had a year ago, but you constantly kind of have to keep up and there’s just one wave after another of needs.

              08:16.094 –> 08:23.581

              [SPEAKER_02]: And at times I can feel overwhelming, but really ultimately what you have to do is kind of sort and organize those things.

              08:24.322 –> 08:28.523

              [SPEAKER_02]: into a perspective where you can say, this is my target audience, right?

              08:28.543 –> 08:31.264

              [SPEAKER_02]: You have to really know who your target audience is.

              08:31.864 –> 08:34.465

              [SPEAKER_02]: You can then sort of understand the needs of that segment.

              08:35.245 –> 08:37.186

              [SPEAKER_02]: And then you can deliver against those.

              08:37.486 –> 08:46.688

              [SPEAKER_02]: And even if you don’t have all of the things they need today, you can start to build on every month, every quarter, new things that you can deliver to keep

              08:52.450 –> 08:54.071

              [SPEAKER_00]: you’re a man off to my own heart there.

              08:54.111 –> 08:56.674

              [SPEAKER_00]: The customer has all the answers.

              08:56.914 –> 09:04.060

              [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if the product that you’ve put together for your customers, then is it as you were saying earlier with the hardware business?

              09:04.320 –> 09:15.029

              [SPEAKER_00]: Is it the physical product as well as a digital service or is it a pure digital subscription that you’ve got your customers interested in or a hybrid mix of each of those?

              09:15.369 –> 09:22.517

              [SPEAKER_02]: The if it subscription is a digital fitness subscription that works with our hardware also works without our hardware as well.

              09:22.577 –> 09:35.332

              [SPEAKER_02]: So really anybody can subscribe and we have a good mix of both I will say, you know, we won’t spend much time on the hardware part here today, so we’re talking about subscription, but we make the world’s best fitness equipment.

              09:35.492 –> 09:37.293

              [SPEAKER_02]: I mean we have the world’s best treadmill.

              09:37.333 –> 09:38.913

              [SPEAKER_02]: We have awesome roars.

              09:38.973 –> 09:40.254

              [SPEAKER_02]: We have an amazing bike.

              09:40.314 –> 09:47.636

              [SPEAKER_02]: I mean we make incredible hardware, which is part of what also makes it easy to pair it with an amazing subscription, right?

              09:48.236 –> 09:50.057

              [SPEAKER_02]: And the subscription that we do offer,

              09:50.877 –> 09:52.319

              [SPEAKER_02]: It’s a digital fitness subscription.

              09:52.419 –> 09:57.585

              [SPEAKER_02]: So for every month, you get access to live trainings from our trainers.

              09:57.885 –> 10:00.468

              [SPEAKER_02]: You know, this is stuff that’s recorded all over the world.

              10:01.009 –> 10:07.116

              [SPEAKER_02]: And part of what makes it different is we produce what we like to call destination fitness.

              10:07.636 –> 10:28.704

              [SPEAKER_02]: So what that means is we literally take the world’s best trainers, we go all over the world and we film very interesting runs, bikes, hikes, things like that, all through the national parks and the U.S., we’ve hiked Mount Everest, we are actually eminominated for that bit of workout, we’ve done the cliffs of more actually in that area.

              10:29.484 –> 10:42.107

              [SPEAKER_02]: You give a chance to really get a view of the world through the content that we create versus the specific like studio related workout stuff that I would say many, many fitness outfits offer.

              10:42.727 –> 10:53.570

              [SPEAKER_02]: And this kind of goes back to the part that I was talking about a second ago, which is you kind of really have to understand your audience and being a me too in any space is really challenging.

              10:54.150 –> 10:56.291

              [SPEAKER_02]: And part of how we’ve decided to separate is

              10:57.551 –> 11:01.835

              [SPEAKER_02]: filming fitness content in the studio is pretty straightforward.

              11:02.275 –> 11:04.337

              [SPEAKER_02]: You can find hundreds of companies that do it.

              11:04.417 –> 11:05.919

              [SPEAKER_02]: It’s relatively inexpensive.

              11:06.479 –> 11:10.723

              [SPEAKER_02]: We decided to go the hard route, which is doing something that was different.

              11:11.303 –> 11:14.266

              [SPEAKER_02]: It was a little more expensive on a per workout basis.

              11:14.586 –> 11:19.471

              [SPEAKER_02]: We literally take a film crew, a trainer, and fly them all over the world to film

              11:22.313 –> 11:25.275

              [SPEAKER_02]: But it’s set as a part, it’s part of what makes this very different.

              11:25.695 –> 11:40.063

              [SPEAKER_02]: It’s also part of what drives the engagement that we have from our athletes as well, because when you’re on our treadmill or on our bike or even working out, you know, Pilate strength, whatever it might be, it’s just very visually engaging for somebody in the studio.

              11:40.403 –> 11:45.228

              [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for explaining the detail that it really does relate to the strategy you were talking about straight.

              11:45.288 –> 11:52.455

              [SPEAKER_00]: I obviously they’ve got to go and create this brilliant new content to explore new places when you’re doing your run, doing your cycling etc.

              11:52.475 –> 11:58.100

              [SPEAKER_00]: Because I know you said you sell I fit to people who don’t have the physical products as well as those who do.

              11:58.180 –> 11:59.461

              [SPEAKER_00]: So have you found

              12:00.322 –> 12:03.706

              [SPEAKER_00]: a completely different customer for the subscription business.

              12:03.806 –> 12:18.284

              [SPEAKER_00]: Is it more about trying to turn existing customers into subscribers or more about bringing new people to the mix to then try and sell them hardware or is it kind of just two venn diagrams that you eventually want to completely overlap and become a circle?

              12:18.504 –> 12:21.165

              [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I would say it’s a little bit of both, right?

              12:21.245 –> 12:24.587

              [SPEAKER_02]: So we have an amazing hardware business that does very well.

              12:24.727 –> 12:27.368

              [SPEAKER_02]: We lead the world in treadmills, has an example.

              12:27.868 –> 12:32.670

              [SPEAKER_02]: So we have an attachment business that we sell to our hardware customers.

              12:33.010 –> 12:36.832

              [SPEAKER_02]: So we have a subscription that pairs with all of our hardware works really, really well.

              12:37.352 –> 12:44.095

              [SPEAKER_02]: But we also have a business where any customer can join, as well, where you don’t need the hardware.

              12:44.635 –> 12:57.802

              [SPEAKER_02]: And this is, I can really important part, is when you build something that is inherently interesting for one audience, oftentimes as a business owner, you could think you’ve built this thing for this very specific group.

              12:58.483 –> 13:11.610

              [SPEAKER_02]: And what we ended up finding is that while yes, it was very attractive to the people who were buying Nordic track equipment or pro-form equipment or whatever it might be, there was inherent value in what we had built just in the general population.

              13:12.170 –> 13:30.282

              [SPEAKER_02]: So there was a moment where we decided to, instead of just focusing in on an attachment business, we decided to say, hey, let’s just open it up to the general population, because the thing we built is really pretty cool, and it will help people on their health and wellness journey, which is really what we’re focused on.

              13:30.962 –> 13:38.127

              [SPEAKER_02]: At the end of the day, we’re talking a lot about a subscription from an I-Fit perspective, really what we are selling is a healthier life.

              13:38.727 –> 14:05.549

              [SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately what we do is a business is we help people achieve their health and fitness goals through really interesting, very engaging, interactive workout programs and series that’s paired with an AI coach that helps you ultimately personalize your experience and sort to get what you want out of it very specifically versus just an endless menu of fitness options,

              14:07.002 –> 14:12.884

              [SPEAKER_00]: I’m glad you mentioned the AI coach because I wanted to ask you about that, what’s the role of the AI?

              14:13.264 –> 14:26.649

              [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it’s personalising the experience for the customers and it is that part of this endless challenge of creating newness within this subscription is the AI coach part of that or is it more the personalisation side?

              14:26.689 –> 14:27.970

              [SPEAKER_00]: What’s driven you to create it?

              14:28.408 –> 14:28.508

              [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

              14:28.588 –> 14:30.949

              [SPEAKER_02]: I would say it’s a little bit of both to be honest.

              14:31.349 –> 14:39.192

              [SPEAKER_02]: So on the one side, you know, when you think about health and wellness and fitness, everyone’s journey is unique.

              14:39.872 –> 14:41.553

              [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone is at a different starting point.

              14:41.693 –> 14:43.614

              [SPEAKER_02]: They have a different end point in in mind.

              14:44.134 –> 14:53.079

              [SPEAKER_02]: you know, some people want to lose 10 pounds before they’re wedding, other people want to be able to lift their grandkids up and have the strength to be able to do that.

              14:53.420 –> 14:55.921

              [SPEAKER_02]: Some people want to be able to run a mile for the first time.

              14:56.301 –> 14:58.263

              [SPEAKER_02]: Some people want to be able to run a marathon.

              14:58.703 –> 15:02.265

              [SPEAKER_02]: Others want to be able to run faster than they did when they were in their 20s, right?

              15:02.785 –> 15:06.588

              [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody’s health and wellness goals are very different.

              15:07.568 –> 15:16.610

              [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we’ve built a really wide assortment of products that can help people with that in our content and our workout.

              15:17.210 –> 15:28.473

              [SPEAKER_02]: What the AI coach does is it takes what your very specific goals are, what you are very specifically trying to achieve and it will custom tailor the plan to you.

              15:29.133 –> 15:32.075

              [SPEAKER_02]: And look, everybody’s using AI in their business today.

              15:32.215 –> 15:35.858

              [SPEAKER_02]: And if you’re not, and if you’re listening to this, I’m going to tell you you are behind, right?

              15:35.938 –> 15:37.779

              [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think you probably already know that.

              15:38.180 –> 15:56.853

              [SPEAKER_02]: But the way that we’re really leveraging it at the moment is to deliver a very personalized experience, because in your health, your life, your fitness, it’s very personal, and we can tailor those plans, based on what you want to do to help you achieve those outcomes.

              15:57.407 –> 16:04.271

              [SPEAKER_00]: So the quality of the subscription product is clearly super important to getting a maintaining the subscribers.

              16:04.991 –> 16:10.854

              [SPEAKER_00]: How else do you go about growing the subscription customer base?

              16:11.275 –> 16:14.997

              [SPEAKER_00]: Is it emailing the existing purchases of Nordic track?

              16:15.077 –> 16:22.821

              [SPEAKER_00]: Or is it going out there and doing above the line activity below the line activity without totally spilling all the beans?

              16:23.141 –> 16:26.503

              [SPEAKER_00]: What’s your approach to growing that subscription list?

              16:26.887 –> 16:27.788

              [SPEAKER_02]: I’ll say it’s a few things.

              16:27.828 –> 16:30.851

              [SPEAKER_02]: I’ll talk maybe generally about it and then we can talk about it, I fit it.

              16:30.911 –> 16:34.955

              [SPEAKER_02]: But I’d like to think about kind of putting things into four buckets.

              16:35.496 –> 16:45.766

              [SPEAKER_02]: So the first one is acquisition and in acquisition, you need to think really clearly about who your audience is, why they resonate with your offer.

              16:46.607 –> 16:55.377

              [SPEAKER_02]: how you very clearly message to them, how you very clearly target them, and how you deliver like a really easy onboarding experience, right?

              16:55.857 –> 16:59.962

              [SPEAKER_02]: So most products have a very general mass market appeal.

              16:59.982 –> 17:01.924

              [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of fitness is a good example of that.

              17:01.944 –> 17:03.666

              [SPEAKER_02]: There’s many other products that are similar.

              17:04.286 –> 17:04.366

              [SPEAKER_02]: And

              17:05.007 –> 17:33.621

              [SPEAKER_02]: you don’t want to go boil the ocean right you’ve got to be really focused with your capital and your marketing spend and your product and all of these things so you have to in in this first bucket the first thing you have to do is be really clear about who you’re trying to get and land messaging that will help acquire them whether that’s a attachment business like selling eye fit to Nordic track customers or you’re trying to attract a general market either way you got to be really clear on what you offer and why they should care that’s the first

              17:34.481 –> 17:44.345

              [SPEAKER_02]: The second thing in this one is maybe a little less traditional, but something that I have always found in subscriptions is really important, which is delivering early value.

              17:45.045 –> 17:49.227

              [SPEAKER_02]: When someone decides to subscribe, there’s all of these firsts that happen.

              17:49.787 –> 17:51.688

              [SPEAKER_02]: You have the first time you use the product.

              17:51.728 –> 17:55.649

              [SPEAKER_02]: You have the first time that you’ve tried X or Y feature of the product.

              17:55.949 –> 17:57.630

              [SPEAKER_02]: You have the first time he gets your bill.

              17:57.990 –> 18:00.771

              [SPEAKER_02]: You have the first time you talk to your friend or family member about it.

              18:00.791 –> 18:02.692

              [SPEAKER_02]: There’s all of these firsts that happen.

              18:03.472 –> 18:20.200

              [SPEAKER_02]: And along those first, the first thing you want to do is show up exactly the way you said you would right from your advertising and commercial and all of that kind of stuff when people go through those first moments, they’re really magical and really important that you show up the way that the customer would have expected you to.

              18:20.220 –> 18:25.823

              [SPEAKER_02]: And then the second part is you have to very quickly deliver value.

              18:26.723 –> 18:34.549

              [SPEAKER_02]: Because at some point what’s going to happen is the customer is going to say I’m using this thing and I’m using this thing, but I’m not really getting the benefit that I had hoped.

              18:35.170 –> 18:48.040

              [SPEAKER_02]: So we like to build in things that allow customers to see quick value and in our world, the good news is with wearables and watches and like all these things, everybody has connected biometrics.

              18:48.640 –> 18:57.625

              [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s very easy for us to demonstrate that to a customer, is that, you know, your VO2 max went from A to B or your cardiac age went from A to B, right?

              18:57.645 –> 19:04.329

              [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it might be, but find a way in your business to very clearly demonstrate value for a customer.

              19:05.189 –> 19:12.919

              [SPEAKER_02]: and make those magical moments in the beginning that all of those first happen really, really well, be super disciplined about that.

              19:13.059 –> 19:14.200

              [SPEAKER_02]: So that’s the second bucket.

              19:14.881 –> 19:17.104

              [SPEAKER_02]: The third bucket is engagement.

              19:17.124 –> 19:24.532

              [SPEAKER_02]: And after you get out of the kind of the first month or two, you kind of get into the cycle where you’re having to drive engagement with the product.

              19:25.153 –> 19:33.883

              [SPEAKER_02]: And in any subscription, you’re going to have a population of people who are heavy users, average users, and people who don’t use it at all, right?

              19:34.264 –> 19:37.027

              [SPEAKER_02]: And that’s just a typical subscription business.

              19:37.707 –> 19:39.089

              [SPEAKER_02]: But no confusion.

              19:39.149 –> 19:40.891

              [SPEAKER_02]: The people who aren’t using it at all,

              19:41.812 –> 19:49.222

              [SPEAKER_02]: As a business owner, you might look at it and say, like, oh, this is great, you know, like they’re paying me every month and you know, they’re not really using it and I’m making like loads of cash, right?

              19:49.623 –> 19:54.870

              [SPEAKER_02]: No confusion, though, the reality is those customers are going to leave at some point, right?

              19:55.231 –> 19:58.055

              [SPEAKER_02]: You have to drive engagement with your product and

              19:58.555 –> 20:08.403

              [SPEAKER_02]: at the end of the day, you want people using your product as much as possible because that’s ultimately what builds loyal ambassadors for your business, right?

              20:08.484 –> 20:10.085

              [SPEAKER_02]: That’s the third bucket is engagement.

              20:10.705 –> 20:13.107

              [SPEAKER_02]: And then the fourth is what I like to call expansion.

              20:13.888 –> 20:22.394

              [SPEAKER_02]: So, you’ve built a business, you’ve built a baseline business, you’ve got a healthy operating business, customers are happy, things are working well, they’re using your product.

              20:22.774 –> 20:24.535

              [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you need to think about how you expand.

              20:25.256 –> 20:38.245

              [SPEAKER_02]: And whether that is expanding in the product that you offer to the current customers through new features, new tiers, adjacent offerings, whatever it might be, or it might be building on the core product that you have,

              20:38.765 –> 20:43.008

              [SPEAKER_02]: so that you can attract a new audience that’s adjacent to the one that you have.

              20:43.508 –> 21:00.360

              [SPEAKER_02]: So once you kind of land the first three clear acquisition pillars, making it really easy to onboard and get value out of it quickly and then driving engagement, you’ve kind of earned the right to start to expand beyond what the core offers.

              21:00.856 –> 21:21.955

              [SPEAKER_00]: What I find fascinating in those four buckets is one of them or one point five of them is about acquisition and 2.5 slash three of them are about retention and that is pretty much the exact reverse of a normal in inverted commas e commas operation does that reflect

              21:23.059 –> 21:30.664

              [SPEAKER_00]: effort budget focus, is it that skewed towards retention and keeping happy customers and great product?

              21:30.984 –> 21:34.086

              [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the way that I like to think about it, I think you’re always focused on both.

              21:34.106 –> 21:35.747

              [SPEAKER_02]: They’re both very important.

              21:35.947 –> 21:39.949

              [SPEAKER_02]: I sort of started with I, you know, everything I do starts with the customer, right?

              21:40.229 –> 21:46.193

              [SPEAKER_02]: And every person who’s purchased is a customer and every person who hasn’t isn’t a customer yet, they’re a potential customer, right?

              21:46.793 –> 21:48.574

              [SPEAKER_02]: But a couple things that I would say about

              21:53.112 –> 22:04.462

              [SPEAKER_02]: Think about how hard it is to find the one customer that says, yes, the one customer, like all of the marketing effort that you had to do, your sales channels, your website, your app, your stores, right?

              22:04.482 –> 22:11.207

              [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it might be, all of the work that you put in to just get ready for one customer to say yes.

              22:11.948 –> 22:16.552

              [SPEAKER_02]: How frustrating is it when they go to use your product or your subscription or whatever it is?

              22:16.592 –> 22:19.414

              [SPEAKER_02]: And they leave a month after they’ve joined.

              22:20.735 –> 22:24.137

              [SPEAKER_02]: both are very important to the business overall.

              22:24.497 –> 22:26.519

              [SPEAKER_02]: If you can acquire customers, you can’t grow.

              22:26.959 –> 22:29.641

              [SPEAKER_02]: But if you can’t keep them, you can’t grow either.

              22:30.421 –> 22:35.104

              [SPEAKER_02]: And there’s a metric that exists in ever subscription business that’s called net subscribers.

              22:36.005 –> 22:41.228

              [SPEAKER_02]: And net subscribers is really ultimately how many customers did you bring in for the period?

              22:42.098 –> 22:47.101

              [SPEAKER_02]: minus how many left for the period, and is that number a positive or a negative number?

              22:47.922 –> 22:49.263

              [SPEAKER_02]: And it’s just math, right?

              22:49.383 –> 22:57.509

              [SPEAKER_02]: You can bring in loads of new customers, but if your existing customers are leaving at a higher rate, then it’s really hard to grow.

              22:58.229 –> 23:09.697

              [SPEAKER_02]: And so really what you have to do is you have to focus on both parts, attracting the right customers important, but keeping every customer and thinking that every customer matters is also important.

              23:10.803 –> 23:15.526

              [SPEAKER_01]: E-commerce Masterplan is supported by some of the greatest companies in the E-commerce sector.

              23:15.686 –> 23:17.087

              [SPEAKER_01]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

              23:27.978 –> 23:33.381

              [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I love this section because it’s me and on Insta’s some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level.

              23:33.401 –> 23:35.422

              [SPEAKER_00]: So Jeremy are you ready for the top tips?

              23:35.903 –> 23:36.463

              [SPEAKER_02]: Let’s do it.

              23:36.783 –> 23:38.464

              [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the book top tip.

              23:38.604 –> 23:45.348

              [SPEAKER_00]: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

              23:45.768 –> 23:49.009

              [SPEAKER_02]: So there was a lot of choices here that I thought about.

              23:49.489 –> 23:53.610

              [SPEAKER_02]: And I wanted to connect it back to the topic that we’ve been talking about.

              23:54.090 –> 24:01.792

              [SPEAKER_02]: So the CEO’s last company I was at about a year ago, he handed me a book to read called, Predictably Irrational by Dan Arlie.

              24:02.552 –> 24:07.213

              [SPEAKER_02]: And it’s really a playbook about supercharging your business.

              24:07.353 –> 24:14.295

              [SPEAKER_02]: And it goes into, I would say, some of the like psychology that customers have when they shop

              24:16.175 –> 24:23.599

              [SPEAKER_02]: But some of what you’ll learn if you read it is about how to do tiered plans in anchoring.

              24:23.799 –> 24:38.487

              [SPEAKER_02]: You’ll learn all about the concept of having a small medium and large offering and the psychology that customers use when they approach three different tiers of plans and how when done right you can move people to the middle.

              24:39.377 –> 24:48.688

              [SPEAKER_02]: or you can use something that’s called the decoy effect, or what I like to call popcorn pricing, which ultimately moves people from the small to the large very quickly.

              24:49.129 –> 24:51.331

              [SPEAKER_02]: So there’s a lot that you can learn in there about that.

              24:51.812 –> 24:55.436

              [SPEAKER_02]: You can also learn about the effects of the zero price effect.

              24:55.896 –> 25:16.822

              [SPEAKER_02]: or the fact that the word free is the most powerful word in any language and it talks a lot about why that is and why people call it free trials or you know gift with purchase and things of that nature and some of what it helped me focus in on is working in some of those words and places

              25:21.183 –> 25:36.366

              [SPEAKER_02]: free customer returns or free 30 day trial or like the just a few different things that you can learn about how to weave that in to your mind because at the end of the day free is a really really powerful word and then the last thing I would say.

              25:37.227 –> 25:55.036

              [SPEAKER_02]: I learned and this was like a really, really interesting one, I think, for the e-commerce audience is there’s something called loss of version and the renewal reminders in the book and really the notion of it is that people hate losing money more than they like gaining money in some cases.

              25:55.756 –> 26:03.380

              [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, when you think about the commerce, you know, we’re very quick to say, like, you know, October sale or, you know, whatever it might be.

              26:03.400 –> 26:20.570

              [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, they go through really specific case study where they try different versions of how to motivate someone to purchase and how time and very specifically how and how time was like a really big factor to motivating someone to do something.

              26:21.190 –> 26:32.163

              [SPEAKER_02]: And look, many of these things are things that you probably have woven into your business already, but I like reading it because it kind of brought it all to the front of the mind and gave reasons why we do the things that we do.

              26:32.787 –> 26:33.007

              [SPEAKER_00]: nice.

              26:33.127 –> 26:38.490

              [SPEAKER_00]: I will be grabbing that book straight after this podcast because that was one serious recommendation.

              26:38.510 –> 26:38.950

              [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

              26:39.370 –> 26:41.931

              [SPEAKER_00]: And I know you guys can’t see this, but I’ve just seen the cover.

              26:42.231 –> 26:43.132

              [SPEAKER_00]: It’s that close.

              26:43.572 –> 26:44.613

              [SPEAKER_00]: It’s that close to Jeremy.

              26:44.633 –> 26:45.633

              [SPEAKER_00]: It’s right there on his desk.

              26:45.733 –> 26:45.993

              [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

              26:46.033 –> 26:47.354

              [SPEAKER_00]: Jeremy next top tip.

              26:47.874 –> 26:48.755

              [SPEAKER_00]: Traffic top tip.

              26:48.935 –> 26:53.637

              [SPEAKER_00]: Which marketing method do you either prize above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves?

              26:54.266 –> 27:03.871

              [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, I thought a lot about this one and, you know, I think, you know, most people kind of go into the direction of some form of a paid tactic.

              27:03.911 –> 27:14.376

              [SPEAKER_02]: They have a favorite trying to pay tactic hack that they’ve done, whether it’s upper funnel or lower funnel or a partner that they’ve done, I think I’m kind of going to go in a different direction.

              27:14.997 –> 27:16.558

              [SPEAKER_02]: And I’m going to share a different point of view.

              27:17.478 –> 27:20.020

              [SPEAKER_02]: which is press and earned media.

              27:20.781 –> 27:32.051

              [SPEAKER_02]: So from my perspective, earned media does not nearly get the attention it needs as a traffic driver, and it is also one of the hardest to get right.

              27:32.927 –> 27:33.788

              [SPEAKER_02]: You can’t wing it.

              27:33.988 –> 27:35.449

              [SPEAKER_02]: There’s no AB testing it.

              27:35.529 –> 27:37.771

              [SPEAKER_02]: There’s not like put a piece of creative out of it.

              27:37.811 –> 27:39.392

              [SPEAKER_02]: Does well do something different.

              27:39.432 –> 27:41.094

              [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yes, you can learn over time.

              27:41.654 –> 27:47.399

              [SPEAKER_02]: But early media is something that you have to plan over months, sometimes quarters in advance.

              27:47.419 –> 27:51.242

              [SPEAKER_02]: You have to really be thoughtful about how you show up as a company.

              27:51.682 –> 27:58.548

              [SPEAKER_02]: It kind of connects your company strategy, your marketing approach, who you’re targeting, your product.

              27:58.588 –> 28:00.849

              [SPEAKER_02]: It really kind of connects all these things together.

              28:01.690 –> 28:16.640

              [SPEAKER_02]: and it forces you to think about how you want to show up in the market, and if done well, it can be a very, very powerful force for traffic, and it’s really hard to get right, and it’s one of my favorite tools.

              28:17.330 –> 28:23.613

              [SPEAKER_00]: I love that recommendation, and yeah, you have to do some serious thinking through before you get started.

              28:24.193 –> 28:34.838

              [SPEAKER_00]: The tall top tip, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plug-in, a phone-up, or just a way of working, is there a cool little tool you use that makes you and your team at more efficient from day to day?

              28:35.252 –> 28:38.374

              [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I’m going to say that this is a really straightforward one.

              28:38.674 –> 28:43.456

              [SPEAKER_02]: I’ve talked about how important the customer’s voices for me and my team and our business.

              28:44.056 –> 28:50.520

              [SPEAKER_02]: So we actually use social media a lot to drive engagements within side of our company.

              28:51.000 –> 28:59.404

              [SPEAKER_02]: So we have an I fit Facebook group and Instagram group with 100 plus thousand members that are very active in connecting with each other.

              29:00.328 –> 29:17.633

              [SPEAKER_02]: And part of how we use that is looking for the information about how they’re talking about the product, what features they wish we would use, if we do an update or a new software release, how did it go, where are there any bugs, where the things that they loved about it, right, whatever it might be.

              29:18.273 –> 29:25.955

              [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, while our customers may not know that we are this intently focused on it, we’re literally reading all of it and mining it for ways that we can

              29:29.134 –> 29:29.534

              [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

              29:29.554 –> 29:35.737

              [SPEAKER_00]: It’s so easy to do a survey, but then you’re getting like, it’s almost a slightly fake response when you do a survey, but just observing.

              29:36.378 –> 29:37.418

              [SPEAKER_00]: So, so cool.

              29:37.478 –> 29:38.319

              [SPEAKER_00]: Love that idea.

              29:38.419 –> 29:38.679

              [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

              29:39.179 –> 29:44.161

              [SPEAKER_00]: The carbon top tip, what’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

              29:44.362 –> 29:45.142

              [SPEAKER_02]: Personal story.

              29:45.162 –> 29:49.664

              [SPEAKER_02]: I have owned an EV electric vehicle since like 2012.

              29:52.398 –> 29:52.598

              [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

              29:52.638 –> 29:54.500

              [SPEAKER_02]: So I was like a super early adopter.

              29:54.520 –> 29:58.123

              [SPEAKER_02]: I think I’m on my sixth one or something along those lines.

              29:58.183 –> 30:01.927

              [SPEAKER_02]: So I have always been a big believer in this as a topic.

              30:02.387 –> 30:08.793

              [SPEAKER_02]: You know, from a business perspective, I think you kind of take the same mindset as you might personally, right?

              30:08.813 –> 30:10.875

              [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t think there’s any one silver bullet.

              30:10.995 –> 30:13.517

              [SPEAKER_02]: I think you’re always looking for ways to do your part.

              30:13.998 –> 30:18.081

              [SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of it comes from what are ways that you can drive efficiency?

              30:18.942 –> 30:24.724

              [SPEAKER_02]: at the same time reduce waste or whatever it might be for your particular type of business.

              30:25.244 –> 30:31.227

              [SPEAKER_02]: So I’m always looking at the intersection of like what’s good for the planet, but what’s also good for the business.

              30:31.747 –> 30:34.548

              [SPEAKER_02]: And usually if you find those things, it’s also good for the customer.

              30:35.060 –> 30:36.021

              [SPEAKER_00]: I like that answer.

              30:36.221 –> 30:37.782

              [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much Jeremy.

              30:37.822 –> 30:43.466

              [SPEAKER_00]: Now before we say goodbye, would you please at the listeners know where they can find you and your business on the web and social media?

              30:43.767 –> 30:44.327

              [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

              30:44.627 –> 30:54.675

              [SPEAKER_02]: You can find us at iFid.com or at all of the major social channels linked in Instagram, Facebook, all of your favorites, literally at iFid.

              30:55.395 –> 30:56.196

              [SPEAKER_00]: Simple as that.

              30:56.276 –> 30:56.757

              [SPEAKER_00]: Love it.

              30:56.817 –> 30:58.479

              [SPEAKER_00]: Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on.

              30:58.579 –> 31:03.345

              [SPEAKER_00]: It has been an absolute pleasure learning from you on how to grow subscriptions.

              31:03.385 –> 31:04.866

              [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you very much for being on the show.

              31:05.107 –> 31:05.387

              [SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.

              31:05.407 –> 31:06.028

              [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me.

              31:11.559 –> 31:12.881

              [SPEAKER_00]: what a lot to process.

              31:13.181 –> 31:23.392

              [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so for me, the two things that really really stood out was one, how important the subscription product is.

              31:24.053 –> 31:30.800

              [SPEAKER_00]: And thinking of it with a big old 360 view, you know, he was talking about those first and how it goes all the way through to

              31:31.801 –> 31:42.229

              [SPEAKER_00]: The first time they talk to someone else about your product, how do you make that journey that experience so seamless that it’s just a brilliant experience for all of them?

              31:42.709 –> 31:49.073

              [SPEAKER_00]: So think about that and to be honest, think about that in any business, not just a subscription business, but especially in the subscription business space.

              31:49.153 –> 31:50.614

              [SPEAKER_00]: How can you make that?

              31:51.695 –> 31:54.338

              [SPEAKER_00]: really stack up really work for your customers.

              31:55.138 –> 32:02.585

              [SPEAKER_00]: So that part about getting the product right, it will bring in the customers, it will retain the customers and so on and so forth.

              32:02.905 –> 32:09.351

              [SPEAKER_00]: And then also the customers listening to them, understanding them, understanding why they want your product.

              32:09.531 –> 32:22.044

              [SPEAKER_00]: and how you can use that to grow your sales and I loved the idea of monitoring what’s happening on social media, the real unfiltered views of your customers, not just running surveys to understand what they want, what they need and so on and so forth.

              32:23.864 –> 32:33.528

              [SPEAKER_00]: You can get our notes, our full notes on the episode, plus the transcript and links and all those kind of good things by heading over to ecommercemasterplanned.com.

              32:33.828 –> 32:41.312

              [SPEAKER_00]: You can also use our direct episode short links, just put ECMP.info-4zash, the number of this episode into the RLB.

              32:41.552 –> 32:43.993

              [SPEAKER_00]: And you’ll be redirected straight to the right episode page.

              32:44.553 –> 32:48.036

              [SPEAKER_00]: When you get to the website, you can also add yourself to our email list.

              32:48.157 –> 32:48.677

              [SPEAKER_00]: Why not?

              32:48.777 –> 32:49.498

              [SPEAKER_00]: Go on, do it.

              32:49.938 –> 32:54.362

              [SPEAKER_00]: So you don’t miss out on any of the other things I share to help you improve your business.

              32:54.382 –> 33:08.175

              [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if you liked this episode, then why not go and have a listen to episode 401 with the always brilliant Christina Smith from Big Island Coffee Roasters about a totally different subscription product.

              33:08.195 –> 33:09.036

              [SPEAKER_00]: So we’re going from

              33:10.077 –> 33:16.761

              [SPEAKER_00]: a digital subscription that will keep you active through to one that will deliver your coffee to you on a regular basis.

              33:16.801 –> 33:18.922

              [SPEAKER_00]: But super insightful, well worth a listen.

              33:18.982 –> 33:31.050

              [SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to dive into more on subscription, then head to ECMP.info forwardsash subscription, where you will find a paid on the website full of all our episodes that relate to subscription businesses.

              33:31.690 –> 33:37.054

              [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for tuning in to this and every episode that you do of this e-commerce master plan podcast.

              33:37.515 –> 33:44.680

              [SPEAKER_00]: We bring you a new interview every week to inspire and help you to succeed and thrive with your business, including becoming more sustainable.

              33:45.141 –> 33:51.025

              [SPEAKER_00]: So if you know someone this show can help, I would love it if you would tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast.

              33:51.386 –> 33:54.268

              [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimising.

              33:57.427 –> 34:00.789

              [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening to the e-commerce Master Plan podcast.

              34:01.190 –> 34:05.993

              [SPEAKER_01]: Find out more at e-commercemasterplanned.com Slash podcast.

              35 min
            • eCommerce MasterPlan | 562: Making Conversational Commerce Work for You — GoKwik’s Abhishek Chandra Explains How

              Abhishek Chandra is the Chief Revenue Officer at GoKwik. Founded in 2020 their focus is on helping eCommerce brands unlock their growth by solving crucial challenges across the eCommerce funnel. Which is exactly what he’s here to help us all with in this episode! 

               

              Listen to discover why WhatsApp is the future of eCommerce — and how to use it to boost sales before your competitors catch on! 

               

              Hit PLAY to hear: 

              • What conversational commerce really means (and why it’s a game-changer for DTC brands) 
              • How WhatsApp can take customers from “Hi” to “Buy” in under 2 minutes 
              • Why now is the perfect time to get on WhatsApp before BFCM 
              • The 30–40 day “warm-up” strategy that turns customers into eager buyers 
              • Real-life results (including how one brand made £1M in a single day!) 
              • Abhishek’s top tips for setting up WhatsApp marketing quickly & effectively 

                •  

                Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

                [03:14] GoKwik: Empowering DTC Against Marketplaces 

                [08:32] India’s First E-Wallet Pioneer 

                [12:06] Conversational Commerce Boosts Quick Sales 

                [14:23] WhatsApp-Integrated Shopify Checkout Process 

                [18:20] WhatsApp: Essential for DTC Brands 

                [23:06] WhatsApp’s Innovation and Growth 

                [24:53] Streamlining WhatsApp Marketing Setup 

                [28:48] Listen to Abhishek’s Top Tips! 

                [32:09] Get 25% off GoKwik’s annual subscription with the code MASTERCLASS  https://www.gokwik.co/  

                 

                Episode sponsored by GoKwik. Use the code MASTERCLASS to get 25% off their annual subscription. https://www.gokwik.co/  

                —

                Download our ebook… https://ecmp.info/ebook 500 Tips to Increase Your Profits

                Get all the links and resources we mention and join our email list at https://ecmp.info

                Love the show? Chloe would love your feedback – leave a review here: https://ecmp.info/review or reply to the episode QandA on Spotify.

                Interested in being a Sponsor? go here: https://ecmp.info/sponsor

                Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

                Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

                WEBVTT

                00:00.591 –> 00:06.455

                [SPEAKER_02]: On WhatsApp, you don’t start with marketing on day one because it’s a new channel of communication.

                00:06.515 –> 00:09.596

                [SPEAKER_02]: So first, you have to warm up the customer and how do you do that?

                00:09.656 –> 00:14.059

                [SPEAKER_02]: You send order confirmation messages, app and in card messages, review messages.

                00:14.459 –> 00:23.364

                [SPEAKER_02]: In 30, 40 days, your audience is warm up to the idea that, okay, now I will keep getting different messages on WhatsApp, then you do your first marketing campaign.

                00:26.118 –> 00:28.479

                [SPEAKER_01]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

                00:29.039 –> 00:33.120

                [SPEAKER_01]: Here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

                00:33.640 –> 00:39.162

                [SPEAKER_01]: Cutting through the hiring to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond.

                00:39.422 –> 00:41.423

                [SPEAKER_01]: Here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

                00:44.756 –> 00:47.218

                [SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome, it’s great to have you here.

                00:47.298 –> 00:51.621

                [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

                00:52.201 –> 01:01.768

                [SPEAKER_00]: This is one of our masterclass episodes where we get an e-commerce expert onto the show to share the key things you need to know in one e-commerce subject.

                01:02.548 –> 01:08.532

                [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, I get to chat with e-commerce expert Abbashek Chandra about one of those.

                01:09.153 –> 01:11.935

                [SPEAKER_00]: Shall we say slightly scary near trends in e-commerce?

                01:12.615 –> 01:14.236

                [SPEAKER_00]: conversational commerce.

                01:14.916 –> 01:22.218

                [SPEAKER_00]: Talked about a lot but not often in detail and certainly not in as much detail and as practically as we’re going to be going into it in this episode.

                01:22.679 –> 01:32.302

                [SPEAKER_00]: He’s going to take us through exactly what conversational commerce is in practical terms, including lots of tips, stats, examples and a fair bit of news as well.

                01:32.842 –> 01:45.645

                [SPEAKER_00]: He’s also going to give us the background on how the changing tech landscape and changing consumer behaviours are fast-turning conversational commerce into a channel you can’t afford to ignore for acquisition or retention.

                01:46.525 –> 01:48.946

                [SPEAKER_00]: Please make sure you listen to the end of the episode.

                01:48.966 –> 01:51.086

                [SPEAKER_00]: So you don’t miss out on my guest’s top tips.

                01:51.286 –> 01:57.708

                [SPEAKER_00]: Frequently describes the best bit of the show and Abba Shakespeare’s answers are great and my own take on this episode.

                01:57.768 –> 01:58.628

                [SPEAKER_00]: Plus if you listen,

                01:59.028 –> 02:09.138

                [SPEAKER_00]: right to the end, you’ll also get a very special offer to help you embrace WhatsApp, which is the go-to conversational commerce channel right now, even better.

                02:15.007 –> 02:16.888

                [SPEAKER_00]: and now to introduce our special guest.

                02:17.248 –> 02:21.091

                [SPEAKER_00]: Abbashek Chandra is the Chief Revenue Officer at Go Quick.

                02:21.531 –> 02:34.578

                [SPEAKER_00]: Founded in 2020, their focus is on helping e-commerce brands to unlock their growth by solving crucial challenges across the e-commerce funnel, which is exactly what he’s here to help us all with in this episode.

                02:34.638 –> 02:35.559

                [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, Abbashek.

                02:36.327 –> 02:36.928

                [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Chloe.

                02:37.188 –> 02:40.653

                [SPEAKER_02]: It’s really amazing to have a conversation like this.

                02:41.074 –> 02:41.695

                [SPEAKER_02]: We have some dough.

                02:41.735 –> 02:43.657

                [SPEAKER_02]: We have met so many times in person.

                02:43.898 –> 02:49.966

                [SPEAKER_02]: We had small chats for a few minutes, but I think this will give us a longer time to talk about each other.

                02:50.758 –> 02:51.638

                [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it’s great too.

                02:51.818 –> 02:59.540

                [SPEAKER_00]: Like you say, we seem to meet at places say, hello, a quick hello and not managed to do a lot more and certainly not managed to record it for the benefit of the audience.

                02:59.960 –> 03:03.441

                [SPEAKER_00]: So it’s very cool to get to spend a whole 30 minutes with you.

                03:03.501 –> 03:05.662

                [SPEAKER_00]: So very glad to have you here.

                03:05.682 –> 03:08.503

                [SPEAKER_00]: And now how did you start off in e-commerce?

                03:08.523 –> 03:12.304

                [SPEAKER_00]: Because I don’t think I’ve even asked you that question when we’ve been out in a bounce.

                03:12.484 –> 03:13.804

                [SPEAKER_00]: So how did the journey start for you?

                03:14.947 –> 03:26.393

                [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so, uh, as correctly introduced by you, so we started Boquay around five years back, but I think the idea of it was from way, way earlier.

                03:26.933 –> 03:34.336

                [SPEAKER_02]: So both me and my CEO, so we’ve been part of the Indian startup ecosystem for a long time for the last at least 13, 14 years.

                03:35.898 –> 03:53.458

                [SPEAKER_02]: And we have seen many times that, so there was time when let’s say DTC used to start growing, but after a few years, we started seeing that the large marketplaces like Amazon or let’s say Flipkarten India, they used to create competitive products in the same marketplace.

                03:53.778 –> 03:58.523

                [SPEAKER_02]: and they used to just kill those DTC brands once they started selling on Amazon.

                03:59.244 –> 04:08.494

                [SPEAKER_02]: And beyond the point, even if let’s say they keep selling their products on Amazon, beyond the point, the commissions were so high that they were not able to sustain.

                04:09.134 –> 04:14.059

                [SPEAKER_02]: And slowly and steadily their customers used to move from their DTC websites to these marketplaces.

                04:14.740 –> 04:18.681

                [SPEAKER_02]: every five years I used to see these DTC brands shutting down.

                04:19.261 –> 04:35.426

                [SPEAKER_02]: So what we thought about was before even starting going, that maybe one day we’ll start a company where we can actually build solutions that can give an Amazon kind of experience on non-Amazon world, which is the DTC world.

                04:36.306 –> 04:49.109

                [SPEAKER_02]: and the reason there was a requirement for a third party player like us was because these DDC brand owners, they know how to get the right product out for the right audience, but these are not tech people.

                04:49.949 –> 05:00.332

                [SPEAKER_02]: And so we thought why don’t we build solutions that can be plugged at various stages of an e-commerce journey so that there is less friction for the end customer to

                05:02.252 –> 05:12.299

                [SPEAKER_02]: And again, they have the same experience which they used to get on an Amazon, which was a company and which was a tech company and they were selling a product.

                05:12.700 –> 05:16.882

                [SPEAKER_02]: That is why the customer used to have this amazing customer experience journeys there.

                05:17.263 –> 05:19.985

                [SPEAKER_02]: So we kind of replicated the same in the DTC world.

                05:20.005 –> 05:22.326

                [SPEAKER_02]: So this is how go quick started in 2020.

                05:23.667 –> 05:29.071

                [SPEAKER_02]: And because we were solving these critical challenges which was not even

                05:29.571 –> 05:34.715

                [SPEAKER_02]: just visible in the Indian market, but it was there in the Asian market, it was there in the Western market.

                05:35.275 –> 05:50.947

                [SPEAKER_02]: So we kind of blew up very fast in the first five, so we are just now in our fifth year and now we work with over 15,000 brands globally and we have three large products and a good captive of a basic

                05:51.147 –> 05:58.313

                [SPEAKER_02]: brand based coming from every part of the world, maybe the Asian part of the world or the Western part of the world, because the problems were same.

                05:58.453 –> 06:02.457

                [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, this is a short journey what we have seen in the last five years.

                06:03.498 –> 06:07.421

                [SPEAKER_00]: I know you’re a big fan of, you know, watching the trends that are going on in the space.

                06:07.781 –> 06:11.765

                [SPEAKER_00]: But I do, I find one of the most fascinating ones, the way that

                06:13.581 –> 06:25.997

                [SPEAKER_00]: Here in the West, UK Europe, U.S., we’ve been pottering along doing our stuff with our consumers who were very addicted to desktop for a very long time because internet came to us early.

                06:26.978 –> 06:31.564

                [SPEAKER_00]: Now we’re playing catch-up, trying to adapt to a mobile first consumer.

                06:32.605 –> 06:47.276

                [SPEAKER_00]: which means we need to be learning from Asia, South America, etc, because you’ve been a mobile first economy and you’re ahead of us with understanding the technology that works with mobile and how that converts into great user experience.

                06:47.296 –> 06:47.857

                [SPEAKER_00]: So I find it.

                06:48.577 –> 07:08.948

                [SPEAKER_00]: I find it really exciting the influx of Asian software and less so South America but the Asian software we’re now getting here into the more western e-commerce world that’s enabling us to play catch-up to where our consumers want to be when we’re still addicted to emails that get viewed on a desktop or a laptop.

                07:09.368 –> 07:12.670

                [SPEAKER_00]: Do you see that from your side as well coming in rather than

                07:16.184 –> 07:24.149

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, see the thing is, yes, you are absolutely right in our part of the world, internet came maybe 10 years later, all right.

                07:24.210 –> 07:33.156

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, and in fact, while I was in fact, in my university, I saw people started using smartphones, all right.

                07:33.216 –> 07:39.760

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, at least it gave us an opportunity and because these are smartphones were built on open source technologies.

                07:39.820 –> 07:42.322

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, anyone can build anything.

                07:42.922 –> 07:47.503

                [SPEAKER_02]: All right, you and many times you don’t need enough capital to even build a small app.

                07:47.983 –> 07:54.005

                [SPEAKER_02]: So I saw that in in Asia, especially let’s say in India, so I came from an engineering background.

                07:54.425 –> 08:08.189

                [SPEAKER_02]: So most of my friends are working on different apps, whether these were solving very small problems, which were related to let’s say something which is related to their university, maybe a fee paying system online or so it’s a, it’s a,

                08:08.429 –> 08:32.218

                [SPEAKER_02]: people used to thinker, the thinker with different technologies to try to build something which can solve very, very small problems and slowly and steadily what we realize as an ecosystem that yes it needed a solution on a much larger scale at the national scale that we have to work and basically we have to build technology which can be scaled to the size of let’s say India.

                08:38.000 –> 08:41.842

                [SPEAKER_02]: wallet for India even before PayPal came to India.

                08:41.902 –> 08:57.528

                [SPEAKER_02]: So we started a company which will the first E wallet for India and then after three four years there were like two three players in the market including PayPal but because we knew the problems which were very local to our market

                08:58.408 –> 09:05.194

                [SPEAKER_02]: In 78 years, we became so big that PayPal left India because they were not able to expand.

                09:05.254 –> 09:12.480

                [SPEAKER_02]: So India is among the only country where PayPal doesn’t exist because the local fintech players, the only entire market.

                09:13.101 –> 09:19.846

                [SPEAKER_02]: All right, because they solve very critical problem, which are basically built for a particular geography.

                09:20.687 –> 09:36.752

                [SPEAKER_02]: Similarly, and when we were building the solution, let’s say my previous company or this company, in fact with go quick, we had a different idea because we built it solid for India, slowly and steadily we started moving out because this was not our first startup that we were doing.

                09:37.152 –> 09:39.813

                [SPEAKER_02]: So at least we had early access to capital.

                09:39.973 –> 09:48.236

                [SPEAKER_02]: So all the large venture capital firms they invested in us because they knew that we’ll be able to build something which can be consumed globally.

                09:48.696 –> 09:55.400

                [SPEAKER_02]: So at least we had the money so we got the right people from different parts of the world and we started working on very critical problems.

                09:55.981 –> 10:08.288

                [SPEAKER_02]: And from day one we had an idea that okay whatever we’ll bill it will not be just restricted to India but we’ll basically be expanded to different geographies and slowly and steadily our products started going to.

                10:08.729 –> 10:13.752

                [SPEAKER_02]: So in fact very surprisingly one of our product written prime when we launched it in the app store.

                10:14.452 –> 10:19.657

                [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, in six months, the biggest merchant base for that product was the US.

                10:20.557 –> 10:25.802

                [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, it surpassed the Indian merchant base in the US.

                10:25.862 –> 10:29.806

                [SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes you don’t even know that because we were not there.

                10:29.846 –> 10:32.128

                [SPEAKER_02]: So we didn’t know that it was a big enough problem.

                10:32.488 –> 10:38.533

                [SPEAKER_02]: We thought that, okay, there is a problem which can, and this problem is also there in the US and the UK market,

                10:40.795 –> 10:43.076

                [SPEAKER_02]: on largest base, became the U.S.-base.

                10:43.736 –> 10:47.637

                [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, so sometimes you don’t know where your product will go in future.

                10:48.357 –> 10:50.137

                [SPEAKER_00]: But seeing it growing massively in the U.S.

                10:50.177 –> 10:51.617

                [SPEAKER_00]: is never a bad thing, is it?

                10:51.758 –> 11:05.641

                [SPEAKER_00]: So let’s talk about conversational commerce, which is one of those areas where I feel like the Asia has it nailed and here in the UK, we are behind the curve somewhat.

                11:05.701 –> 11:06.601

                [SPEAKER_00]: So first off,

                11:07.361 –> 11:09.042

                [SPEAKER_00]: What is conversational commerce?

                11:09.062 –> 11:15.907

                [SPEAKER_00]: Because certainly here in the UK, people spin it around as a phrase, but I’m not sure everyone who’s using it actually understands what it really is.

                11:16.247 –> 11:18.268

                [SPEAKER_00]: So what is conversational commerce?

                11:19.269 –> 11:25.473

                [SPEAKER_02]: So as the name suggests, conversational commerce mean a conversation that can lead to commerce.

                11:25.913 –> 11:29.396

                [SPEAKER_02]: Let’s say few years back, it was a term called content to commerce.

                11:29.756 –> 11:33.859

                [SPEAKER_02]: So which means if you are selling products on your website at a DTC brand,

                11:34.399 –> 11:41.520

                [SPEAKER_02]: Beyond the point, if you have to grow, you have to ensure that the customer believe in your brand story.

                11:41.900 –> 11:45.361

                [SPEAKER_02]: They believe in the ethos on the basis of which you are running a company.

                11:45.721 –> 11:49.422

                [SPEAKER_02]: So most of the brands started building content around their products.

                11:49.462 –> 11:52.202

                [SPEAKER_02]: So either it can be a video product, it can be blocked.

                11:52.582 –> 11:56.303

                [SPEAKER_02]: So content to commerce became very, very important part in their journey.

                11:56.783 –> 12:00.444

                [SPEAKER_02]: Similarly, conversational commerce, why it became popular was,

                12:02.984 –> 12:05.708

                [SPEAKER_02]: every customer has a very short attention period.

                12:06.289 –> 12:06.570

                [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

                12:06.630 –> 12:16.684

                [SPEAKER_02]: So if within seconds you are not able to convince a customer to buy a product, they will go to some other website to buy the same product or they will go to a market place to buy their product.

                12:17.145 –> 12:17.265

                [SPEAKER_02]: So

                12:17.906 –> 12:27.730

                [SPEAKER_02]: Conversational commerce gives every brand an opportunity where in few seconds they can trigger a purchase from a customer.

                12:27.850 –> 12:28.850

                [SPEAKER_02]: I’ll give you an example.

                12:29.370 –> 12:41.835

                [SPEAKER_02]: So these conversations commerce have been there for last two, three years where let’s say it can be done via messaging apps, it can be done via even Instagram DMs, it can be done via WhatsApp.

                12:42.155 –> 12:42.815

                [SPEAKER_02]: So these are the

                12:43.295 –> 12:49.459

                [SPEAKER_02]: top three platforms through which we have seen such kind of triggers created for the customers.

                12:49.939 –> 12:58.885

                [SPEAKER_02]: So let’s say I as a customer, if I have to buy a t-shirt, I can go to a particular website, go through different catalogs and try to finalize a t-shirt.

                12:58.925 –> 13:06.851

                [SPEAKER_02]: But let’s say if I’m in a hurry and if I have a let’s say access to the WhatsApp channel of the brand or let’s say chatboard

                13:12.334 –> 13:14.295

                [SPEAKER_02]: which can be used for business meetings.

                13:15.096 –> 13:20.680

                [SPEAKER_02]: Now, using this text, which is a conversation, the system can start giving recommendation.

                13:21.140 –> 13:26.784

                [SPEAKER_02]: It can be a real person giving recommendation, or it can be an AI agent giving recommendation to the customers.

                13:27.185 –> 13:32.168

                [SPEAKER_02]: So now the customer doesn’t have to go to the entire product discovery page to different catalogs.

                13:32.649 –> 13:35.190

                [SPEAKER_02]: They will get these three options, three or four options.

                13:35.751 –> 13:40.114

                [SPEAKER_02]: And the customer can, if they like those four options, they can go for an purchase.

                13:40.534 –> 13:52.726

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, which means from let’s say a 10 minute journey on our website where customer was let’s say looking for a product and then he was deciding to buy a product, this journey can be shortened to maybe a two minute journey.

                13:53.406 –> 13:55.689

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, which is a very significant difference.

                13:56.615 –> 14:00.896

                [SPEAKER_00]: Let’s think with the WhatsApp example, just to simplify the tech here.

                14:00.936 –> 14:03.537

                [SPEAKER_00]: But we have that conversation.

                14:04.017 –> 14:11.179

                [SPEAKER_00]: Is the end point that the agent that we’re having a conversation with, be it human, be it AI?

                14:11.780 –> 14:18.221

                [SPEAKER_00]: They then give us a link to the product page on the website to buy or do we buy within WhatsApp?

                14:18.682 –> 14:20.922

                [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a complete purchase?

                14:20.962 –> 14:23.023

                [SPEAKER_00]: Do we go somewhere else or do we stay on platform?

                14:23.852 –> 14:32.999

                [SPEAKER_02]: Very good question, Chloe, not many people know that, but WhatsApp is the only channel where you can get the customer complete the transaction on WhatsApp itself.

                14:33.840 –> 14:38.263

                [SPEAKER_02]: Because it is so well connected to the Shopify backend.

                14:38.884 –> 14:40.425

                [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I’ll give you an example.

                14:40.465 –> 14:41.766

                [SPEAKER_02]: Let’s say off an abandoned cart.

                14:42.147 –> 14:52.535

                [SPEAKER_02]: If someone abandons a cart on a particular website, they get a trigger on WhatsApp that hey, you are looking for this product, with complete imagery of the product, or it can be a video of the product.

                14:53.075 –> 14:57.362

                [SPEAKER_02]: And let’s say if you finished a transaction in next five minutes, you’ll get something.

                14:57.842 –> 15:01.147

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, and when the customer actually decides to buy that product.

                15:01.488 –> 15:07.236

                [SPEAKER_02]: And in fact, before even buying the product, maybe a customer can ask a question, can I get this product in different colour?

                15:07.877 –> 15:14.922

                [SPEAKER_02]: So once they write that, now a different product is pulled from the Shopify backend and it is given as a suggestion.

                15:15.302 –> 15:25.449

                [SPEAKER_02]: So let’s say after that, if let’s say the customer likes that product, they can just click on that link and they will be directly taken to the checkout page of Shopify.

                15:26.380 –> 15:37.985

                [SPEAKER_02]: So either they can check out on the Shopify, they are not again taken back to the to the product page like you used to do on email or SMS, but the product is already added to the cart.

                15:38.085 –> 15:39.886

                [SPEAKER_02]: You directly go to the checkout page.

                15:40.286 –> 15:41.967

                [SPEAKER_02]: You fill in your cart details done.

                15:42.767 –> 15:48.971

                [SPEAKER_02]: And this is what is already working in UK, but in the Asian market, it has gone to one extra step.

                15:49.471 –> 15:51.212

                [SPEAKER_02]: There we have WhatsApp pay also.

                15:51.312 –> 15:53.574

                [SPEAKER_02]: So you don’t even have to go to the checkout.

                15:53.994 –> 15:59.237

                [SPEAKER_02]: You can just fill in your card details on WhatsApp itself and the transaction is done.

                15:59.737 –> 16:07.002

                [SPEAKER_02]: I think WhatsApp rolls out these features in phases in different countries, but I think this feature to complete

                16:12.975 –> 16:35.340

                [SPEAKER_00]: So basically, if we’ve got a good integration in integration properly set up, then at the moment, here in the UK, we’re going to be sending customers to the distraction freeze zone that is the check out of our store, and soon we’ll be able to actually take the money on WhatsApp as though it was a marketplace, for example, and then the order comes through the money comes through and all the rest of it.

                16:35.820 –> 16:37.661

                [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned that that works with Shopify.

                16:37.741 –> 16:40.321

                [SPEAKER_00]: Is it only Shopify that’s got that level of integration

                16:43.683 –> 16:46.626

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, it is possible for other platforms also.

                16:46.907 –> 16:50.291

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, see globally, we are the largest WhatsApp farmers company.

                16:50.471 –> 17:00.183

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, what we have seen is when we were building it for different geographies, different platforms, at least Shopify on Shopify, the integration is very seamless.

                17:00.203 –> 17:01.945

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, everything can be automated.

                17:02.545 –> 17:24.698

                [SPEAKER_02]: But now we are building it for different platforms also like me gentle or let’s say different custom platform So it is already in in our roadmaps and I think by end of this year We will make it available on other platforms also because because see there was some certain limitations in fact When we were building it for Shopify also there were certain APIs which were not available but

                17:25.118 –> 17:29.720

                [SPEAKER_02]: it took us close to an year to to request Shopify to give us those APIs in on.

                17:30.120 –> 17:42.664

                [SPEAKER_02]: So it takes time, but now because it is working so well and seamlessly on on Shopify that other platforms have also started giving those access points where we can build those APIs for for what’s

                17:43.955 –> 17:44.075

                [SPEAKER_00]: Cool.

                17:44.115 –> 17:47.378

                [SPEAKER_00]: So if you’re on Shopify, this is pretty easy to get integrated.

                17:47.538 –> 17:53.464

                [SPEAKER_00]: If you’re on others ask the question, I don’t know what we’re saying here, but it’s probably coming if it isn’t here already.

                17:54.404 –> 17:57.627

                [SPEAKER_00]: Why, I mean, we’re saying about how it’s coming.

                17:58.568 –> 18:02.792

                [SPEAKER_00]: Why is now the time to be doing this in the UK?

                18:02.832 –> 18:07.696

                [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we’re releasing this episode, September 29th for everybody to hear.

                18:08.477 –> 18:10.261

                [SPEAKER_00]: Which is getting quite close to peak.

                18:10.381 –> 18:13.927

                [SPEAKER_00]: Is this something UK businesses should be considering doing for peak?

                18:14.007 –> 18:15.991

                [SPEAKER_00]: Is the consumer demand there enough?

                18:16.111 –> 18:18.596

                [SPEAKER_00]: Or are we saying they should be putting this on their roadmap for 2026?

                18:20.913 –> 18:25.276

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think this is the right time to start using WhatsApp.

                18:25.376 –> 18:26.757

                [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I’ll give you an example.

                18:26.837 –> 18:29.979

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, when we launched our product, it’s called Quick Engage.

                18:30.480 –> 18:32.921

                [SPEAKER_02]: Three years back, we have all three things.

                18:33.101 –> 18:34.502

                [SPEAKER_02]: Email SMS and WhatsApp.

                18:35.143 –> 18:46.791

                [SPEAKER_02]: But what we have seen in the Asian market, that in the last 14, 15 months, 70 to 80% of all communications have started moving towards WhatsApp for a brand.

                18:47.351 –> 19:05.789

                [SPEAKER_02]: All right, though we used to give all three services, but we have seen that majority has shifted towards WhatsApp from a communication point of view because of what multiple things because it has a 90% plus open rate if you have such high open rate the click through rates goes up, which means the overall ROI will go up.

                19:06.149 –> 19:31.360

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, which resulted in just in last one year, in 2024, we sent over 2 billion messages on WhatsApp for our DTC brands and we only work with DTC brands, which kind of proves that this platform is something new innovative and which a customer really wants to work with because everything is every 10 years technologies change, evolve, even the customer mindset also changes.

                19:31.980 –> 19:57.562

                [SPEAKER_02]: maybe seven, eight years back Facebook was the coolest social media website then it came Instagram now it is TikTok and slowly instead maybe after three, four years there will be some other new social media app or a platform similarly the channel of communication also has to evolve at time and email an SMS has been there for the last 10, 15 years so customers need something which is like firstly visually very appealing

                19:58.222 –> 20:16.019

                [SPEAKER_02]: which WhatsApp is on WhatsApp, whenever you communicate to a customer, it can be with amazing image or a nice video and with text which can have emojis or at which really attracts a customer and that is why it feels so personal when you reach out to the customer.

                20:16.600 –> 20:17.380

                [SPEAKER_02]: It’s been just

                20:18.261 –> 20:23.886

                [SPEAKER_02]: 10 months for us in the UK and you won’t believe or 100 brands have already started working with us.

                20:24.407 –> 20:30.813

                [SPEAKER_02]: And these are across different categories from fashion to health and health and nutrition to pet care.

                20:31.233 –> 20:34.055

                [SPEAKER_02]: And everyone is using it for different purposes.

                20:34.095 –> 20:40.842

                [SPEAKER_02]: So for example, one of our pet brand, their best use case is getting more reviews out of through WhatsApp.

                20:41.402 –> 20:57.040

                [SPEAKER_02]: So they have this good captive customer base, but they always wanted to have, let’s say, capture their reviews and they were sending emails, SMSes, but most of the times they were getting ignored because most of the emails lands up in promotion, even if the customers were loving them.

                20:57.480 –> 21:03.523

                [SPEAKER_02]: they were not opening those emails and not doing, because this purchase was already done, so it was not happening.

                21:03.603 –> 21:10.867

                [SPEAKER_02]: But when they started using WhatsApp, so after every purchase, maybe on the 7th day you get a message that, hey, you hope you like the product.

                21:10.908 –> 21:11.808

                [SPEAKER_02]: Can you give us a rating?

                21:12.148 –> 21:15.050

                [SPEAKER_02]: And the rating system was placed then and there on WhatsApp.

                21:15.690 –> 21:29.874

                [SPEAKER_02]: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 stars, they can click on any rating, after let’s say clicking on the stars, they can automatically, they can write a review and this review and rating can be published on external websites like a judgeme or a reviews.io.

                21:30.274 –> 21:39.277

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, these are the things which are directly possible via platform like WhatsApp, which is not any way possible on an email or SMS.

                21:40.262 –> 21:46.983

                [SPEAKER_00]: It strikes me that SMS is probably going to die out for marketing and sales.

                21:47.284 –> 21:49.584

                [SPEAKER_00]: Stay for ops, but die out for marketing and sales.

                21:50.184 –> 21:57.326

                [SPEAKER_00]: And that we’re going to be collecting mobile numbers with the aim of WhatsApping people, not estimate.

                21:57.346 –> 22:01.006

                [SPEAKER_00]: Because the functionality’s there and consumers seem to respond to it so much.

                22:01.447 –> 22:07.748

                [SPEAKER_00]: So building up to a question here, honest, it strikes me that a brand will be better off.

                22:08.608 –> 22:12.471

                [SPEAKER_00]: If they’re going, we’ve got to move beyond email, do we do SMS, do we do WhatsApp?

                22:12.591 –> 22:18.036

                [SPEAKER_00]: Right now, the better option is to leap from past SMS and go straight for WhatsApp.

                22:18.496 –> 22:20.658

                [SPEAKER_00]: Is that right or wrong at this point in time?

                22:21.363 –> 22:22.884

                [SPEAKER_02]: you are absolutely right.

                22:23.204 –> 22:28.086

                [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, when we came to the UK, we never asked any brand to stop email.

                22:28.646 –> 22:38.250

                [SPEAKER_02]: All right, because email, anyway, people read, though it has a low open rate, but still, email gives you an option to, but it doesn’t have any character limit.

                22:38.930 –> 22:40.811

                [SPEAKER_02]: You can have some rich media there.

                22:40.851 –> 22:41.971

                [SPEAKER_02]: You can have imagery there.

                22:42.011 –> 22:43.992

                [SPEAKER_02]: So at least it has its own base.

                22:44.572 –> 22:48.414

                [SPEAKER_02]: But see the thing is, SMS is rightly said, SMS is dying.

                22:48.974 –> 23:00.143

                [SPEAKER_02]: Firstly, because the service providers who built SMS were the telcos and they have from the last 10, 15, in fact, in the last 10 years, they have not done any innovation.

                23:00.684 –> 23:08.450

                [SPEAKER_02]: All right, in that, that is why it is still restricted to those 60, 70, 100 words and beyond that, you can’t do anything.

                23:08.930 –> 23:15.175

                [SPEAKER_02]: So when the creator of a particular platform is not doing any new innovation, how will the products are why?

                23:15.936 –> 23:27.727

                [SPEAKER_02]: On the other hand, WhatsApp does so many innovations every six months, because firstly, now globally, you won’t believe there are like 2.8 billion customers on WhatsApp.

                23:29.029 –> 23:34.574

                [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, just in the UK, 85% of the market used it to chat with their friends and family.

                23:35.174 –> 23:49.745

                [SPEAKER_02]: So it already has a huge customer base which is using the platform plus that platform is slowly and steadily adding more and more features from a both consumer lens as well as let’s say from there B to B side of things.

                23:50.065 –> 23:53.588

                [SPEAKER_02]: So that is why you have this rich media, you have

                23:53.948 –> 23:56.770

                [SPEAKER_02]: a voice note kind of a thing which is already there.

                23:57.211 –> 24:03.016

                [SPEAKER_02]: Now, in fact, one more interesting thing which is done by a meta because meta owns both Instagram and WhatsApp.

                24:03.456 –> 24:11.763

                [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you can even run ads on meta and when a customer clicks on in that ad, it can go to a WhatsApp channel of the brand.

                24:12.317 –> 24:12.757

                [SPEAKER_00]: Really?

                24:12.777 –> 24:13.738

                [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

                24:14.339 –> 24:14.659

                [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

                24:14.699 –> 24:16.041

                [SPEAKER_00]: So you could ask.

                24:16.081 –> 24:23.808

                [SPEAKER_00]: You could do like a survey style ad and take it immediately to WhatsApp for a conversation rather than a clever, very clever.

                24:24.529 –> 24:27.752

                [SPEAKER_00]: So, Abbaship, we’ve covered a lot of the why.

                24:28.152 –> 24:30.634

                [SPEAKER_00]: Why you really should be considering what’s that right now?

                24:30.654 –> 24:35.839

                [SPEAKER_00]: And I have say I’m convinced, very tempted to go off and see how we could integrate it into our podcast marketing.

                24:36.199 –> 24:37.480

                [SPEAKER_00]: But that’s not for this show.

                24:37.880 –> 24:45.467

                [SPEAKER_00]: If someone’s listing going, yes, we need to kick off this now, get it ready for black Friday and Christmas, test it, recruit customers, etc.

                24:45.987 –> 24:47.829

                [SPEAKER_00]: How do they go about making the most of it?

                24:47.869 –> 24:52.453

                [SPEAKER_00]: What’s the key stuff they need to know, tips and tricks to make sure they’re making the most of what’s up?

                24:53.541 –> 25:00.166

                [SPEAKER_02]: So in WhatsApp, what typically happens is, firstly, the onboarding is not a long process within 24 hours.

                25:00.647 –> 25:06.932

                [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, firstly, it’s a five minute job to connect, let’s say, a Facebook business manager ID to your Shopify backend.

                25:07.052 –> 25:08.193

                [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s a five minute job.

                25:08.713 –> 25:13.457

                [SPEAKER_02]: within 24 hours you get a basically your account is set up for WhatsApp marketing.

                25:13.978 –> 25:21.685

                [SPEAKER_02]: Then the first step comes is now you have to collect consents from customers, which you already do for emails.

                25:21.765 –> 25:26.649

                [SPEAKER_02]: So you have pop ups on your website, you on the checkout, you have different checkboxes for email.

                25:27.089 –> 25:30.713

                [SPEAKER_02]: So typically you have to start taking consent for WhatsApp marketing also.

                25:31.253 –> 25:36.257

                [SPEAKER_02]: which is a process which takes because slowly and steadily your customers will start giving consent.

                25:36.697 –> 25:45.003

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, in fact, what even I would suggest, brands is because November is around the in two, three months, November will come, you will have BFCM.

                25:45.444 –> 25:47.745

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, it’s better to start immediately.

                25:47.785 –> 25:51.448

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, that at least you can have consents from most of your customer.

                25:52.188 –> 25:56.452

                [SPEAKER_02]: And anyway, on WhatsApp, you don’t start with marketing on day one.

                25:57.072 –> 26:00.094

                [SPEAKER_02]: because it’s a new channel of communication.

                26:00.154 –> 26:02.436

                [SPEAKER_02]: So first, you have to warm up the customer.

                26:02.816 –> 26:08.841

                [SPEAKER_02]: So for the first 30, 40 days, even we tell the brands, you need to warm up the customer and how do you do that?

                26:09.261 –> 26:11.603

                [SPEAKER_02]: You send order confirmation messages on WhatsApp.

                26:12.003 –> 26:13.725

                [SPEAKER_02]: That, hey, thanks for placing the order.

                26:14.365 –> 26:20.430

                [SPEAKER_02]: You will receive the product in next 3 to 5 days and with the tracking link, that, hey, here’s a link to track the order.

                26:20.450 –> 26:23.452

                [SPEAKER_02]: So you can keep clicking on that link till the time you receive the product.

                26:24.193 –> 26:40.014

                [SPEAKER_02]: So order confirmation messages, abandoned card messages, review messages, once let’s say in 3040 days your audience is warm up to the idea that okay now I will keep getting different messages on whatsapp then you do your first marketing campaign.

                26:40.214 –> 26:43.695

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, it needs a 30, 40 days of a warm-up period.

                26:44.015 –> 26:52.078

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think this is the right time to actually go for this WhatsApp integration because anyway, but BFCM is around the corner.

                26:52.098 –> 27:01.600

                [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I’ll give you an example of last year, last year when we launched in the UK, before the BFCM, we hardly had like 10 brands which were using WhatsApp.

                27:02.181 –> 27:03.541

                [SPEAKER_02]: And one of our brand, which

                27:03.561 –> 27:07.202

                [SPEAKER_02]: They were doing like 10 million pounds in revenue in a year.

                27:08.002 –> 27:13.883

                [SPEAKER_02]: And during the Black Friday seal, we told them that you are anywhere marketing your offers everywhere.

                27:14.324 –> 27:16.124

                [SPEAKER_02]: Let’s do your campaigns on WhatsApp.

                27:16.844 –> 27:26.186

                [SPEAKER_02]: And interestingly, because all other marketing channels, SMS emails and all, they were like so cluttered bit, so many offers from hundreds of brands.

                27:26.626 –> 27:28.927

                [SPEAKER_02]: And no one was using the WhatsApp.

                27:28.947 –> 27:31.147

                [SPEAKER_02]: So when we started doing their campaigns on WhatsApp,

                27:34.251 –> 27:36.760

                [SPEAKER_02]: They hit a million pound and revenue in one day.

                27:37.690 –> 27:42.152

                [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, there is such a sparse neighborhood volunteer, isn’t that nice?

                27:42.172 –> 27:42.653

                [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, beautifully.

                27:42.693 –> 27:49.076

                [SPEAKER_02]: So they hit a million pound in one day, which became a big news in the DTC ecosystem.

                27:49.156 –> 27:54.098

                [SPEAKER_02]: People started calling us, we wanted to be one year old to start you ring it.

                27:54.658 –> 28:00.821

                [SPEAKER_02]: And so interestingly, during BFCM sale also, the open rates on WhatsApp are 95%.

                28:01.041 –> 28:01.441

                [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

                28:01.862 –> 28:04.183

                [SPEAKER_02]: During those, let’s say peak sale periods is,

                28:05.003 –> 28:13.409

                [SPEAKER_02]: Even if let’s say brands start using WhatsApp, whichever brands will use it in the, in fact, till the next two years, they’ll have the first moves at one page.

                28:14.110 –> 28:16.251

                [SPEAKER_02]: All right, because this channel is not cluttered.

                28:16.491 –> 28:20.114

                [SPEAKER_02]: As a customer, you will hardly get a message or a two in a week.

                28:20.514 –> 28:21.895

                [SPEAKER_02]: So customers will open it.

                28:22.276 –> 28:28.340

                [SPEAKER_02]: And once they open it, the chances of them to react on that message is very high as compared to an email or an SMS.

                28:31.303 –> 28:36.025

                [SPEAKER_01]: E-commerce master plan is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the E-commerce sector.

                28:36.165 –> 28:44.288

                [SPEAKER_01]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

                28:44.468 –> 28:46.329

                [SPEAKER_01]: It’s time for the top six round.

                28:48.930 –> 28:54.352

                [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I love this section because it gives me and I’ll list us some really quick ways for taking our businesses to the next level.

                28:54.472 –> 28:56.532

                [SPEAKER_00]: Abhishek, are you ready for the top tips?

                28:57.293 –> 28:57.713

                [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

                28:58.385 –> 29:00.867

                [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let’s do this at the book top tip.

                29:00.987 –> 29:08.293

                [SPEAKER_00]: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

                29:09.515 –> 29:12.858

                [SPEAKER_02]: So I will suggest two books, they can read either of them.

                29:12.999 –> 29:19.445

                [SPEAKER_02]: So one is zero to one by Peter Thiel or let’s say the blue ocean strategy by W Chen.

                29:20.006 –> 29:30.296

                [SPEAKER_02]: Both the books talk about innovating and not trying to improve which is already what is already available because it gives you the power to create monopoly in the market if you innovate.

                29:31.202 –> 29:34.123

                [SPEAKER_00]: I’m such a fan of blue ocean strategy.

                29:34.224 –> 29:37.145

                [SPEAKER_00]: I must, it’s one of those phrases I use far too often.

                29:37.305 –> 29:39.526

                [SPEAKER_00]: So I’m going to have to read one to zero as well.

                29:39.586 –> 29:40.767

                [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for that, Abhishek.

                29:41.527 –> 29:47.190

                [SPEAKER_00]: Traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either prize above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves?

                29:48.065 –> 29:49.967

                [SPEAKER_02]: It’s conversational marketing via WhatsApp.

                29:50.208 –> 29:55.815

                [SPEAKER_02]: I can say it again and again because we have tried, as a company also, we do different kind of food.

                29:55.835 –> 29:59.159

                [SPEAKER_02]: We try different marketing methods to reach out to our customers.

                29:59.199 –> 30:03.084

                [SPEAKER_02]: But I think the way WhatsApp marketing works, it’s amazing.

                30:03.806 –> 30:07.288

                [SPEAKER_00]: I’d have been very surprised if you’d have given us something else at that point.

                30:07.448 –> 30:15.793

                [SPEAKER_00]: I have to say so, very good that we’re sticking with the WhatsApp messaging there, because it’s clearly a huge amount of potential for people.

                30:16.453 –> 30:26.359

                [SPEAKER_00]: The tooltop tip, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plug-in, a phone-up or just a wave working, is there a chord little tool you use that makes you and your team a more efficient from day to day?

                30:27.336 –> 30:33.040

                [SPEAKER_02]: As a collaborator tool, in fact, one of my colleague introduced me to one which is called Monday.

                30:33.760 –> 30:45.889

                [SPEAKER_02]: I started using it in fact, just a month back and still to use it to its full potential, but it’s it’s really good, earlier I used to just use lag, but I think this is much more mature and it is much, much more hands on.

                30:45.949 –> 30:50.532

                [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think Monday is one and then I have another app which I keep using.

                30:50.632 –> 30:51.853

                [SPEAKER_02]: It’s called Angel List.

                30:52.433 –> 31:03.102

                [SPEAKER_02]: basically through that, you can read about various startups that are launched globally in different categories and you can invest in those startups with as low as a thousand pound.

                31:03.963 –> 31:09.848

                [SPEAKER_02]: So which which is amazing from both learning point of view and let’s say if you want to diversify and let’s say invest.

                31:10.568 –> 31:12.370

                [SPEAKER_00]: Very cool, love those two.

                31:13.090 –> 31:16.453

                [SPEAKER_00]: And the carbon top tip, what’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon

                31:19.897 –> 31:45.337

                [SPEAKER_02]: I think the first should be the size of delivery boxes they have to really get it right many times I ordered something from Amazon even a small item get a very big box So I think getting the size of the delivery box right is the first thing and second I think most of the people are trying it, but I think EV fleet for delivery Whether it’s a e-scooter or a electric man to deliver the products you know

                31:45.745 –> 31:55.211

                [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there’s nothing worse than a big amount of air being carried around the country on the back of a fossil fuel burning truck is there, it’s like, we can do better.

                31:55.292 –> 31:56.212

                [SPEAKER_00]: We can do a lot better.

                31:56.252 –> 31:56.873

                [SPEAKER_00]: Love those two.

                31:56.913 –> 31:57.393

                [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

                31:58.153 –> 32:06.459

                [SPEAKER_00]: Aveshek, before we say goodbye, the listeners need to know how they can get in contact with you and your team and take advantage of all the core WhatsApp stuff.

                32:06.819 –> 32:08.921

                [SPEAKER_00]: We’ve just been talking about, so how do they go about doing that?

                32:09.942 –> 32:13.284

                [SPEAKER_02]: So either they can directly reach out to me via LinkedIn.

                32:13.744 –> 32:16.286

                [SPEAKER_02]: They’ll be able to find me on LinkedIn.

                32:16.526 –> 32:19.828

                [SPEAKER_02]: And also they can go to our website, goquit.co.co.

                32:20.548 –> 32:21.949

                [SPEAKER_02]: And they can leave a query there.

                32:22.409 –> 32:26.391

                [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, interestingly, I can do one thing for all your listeners.

                32:26.891 –> 32:36.917

                [SPEAKER_02]: So if they mention master class as a code, we would be happy to give them a 25% off for the entire one year on the subscription fee of Goquette.

                32:37.237 –> 32:38.638

                [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, we can do that.

                32:39.157 –> 32:39.978

                [SPEAKER_00]: very nice.

                32:40.138 –> 32:40.738

                [SPEAKER_00]: Love that.

                32:40.758 –> 32:47.102

                [SPEAKER_00]: So that’s the use the code master class and you will get was it 25% or for a whole year?

                32:47.623 –> 32:47.923

                [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

                32:48.383 –> 32:48.783

                [SPEAKER_00]: Excellent.

                32:49.224 –> 32:51.185

                [SPEAKER_00]: Very juicy offer there everyone.

                32:51.225 –> 32:58.010

                [SPEAKER_00]: If you had the slightest hesitation or giving what’s up ago at the moment, hopefully that’s broken that last bit of a bit of hesitation.

                32:58.030 –> 33:00.571

                [SPEAKER_00]: So head to go quick.co to get that one.

                33:01.012 –> 33:02.593

                [SPEAKER_00]: And Michelle, thank you so much.

                33:02.633 –> 33:06.475

                [SPEAKER_00]: It’s been lovely having a decent long chat with you and I’m so pleased we got to record it

                33:07.696 –> 33:09.962

                [SPEAKER_00]: So thanks for being on the e-commerce most planned podcast.

                33:10.643 –> 33:13.109

                [SPEAKER_02]: It was amazing talking about this new thing.

                33:13.310 –> 33:14.432

                [SPEAKER_02]: I’m very excited about it.

                33:20.423 –> 33:23.144

                [SPEAKER_00]: what a fascinating chat with Abhishek.

                33:23.344 –> 33:31.786

                [SPEAKER_00]: If you’re not convinced that WhatsApp is something you should be investigating for your brand, probably ahead of SMS, I don’t know what more we could have said.

                33:32.367 –> 33:35.267

                [SPEAKER_00]: Because consumers are responding really, really well to it.

                33:35.307 –> 33:40.529

                [SPEAKER_00]: There is still some of that first mirror advantage that blue ocean strategy opportunity going on with it.

                33:40.969 –> 33:45.113

                [SPEAKER_00]: There’s clearly multiple different ways in which it’s delivering well for brands.

                33:45.433 –> 33:56.183

                [SPEAKER_00]: Abhishek talks about order confirmation activity, he talks about abandoned baskets, he talks about Black Friday, he talks about that very cool, reviews example.

                33:56.603 –> 34:04.570

                [SPEAKER_00]: But you can totally get, well if you get that what’s that with the different stars, you click on the star and you’re just there to enter a view, makes it so much more seamless for the customer.

                34:04.851 –> 34:06.772

                [SPEAKER_00]: So not surprising, they’re getting more reviews that way.

                34:07.593 –> 34:25.709

                [SPEAKER_00]: lots of opportunity there and huge integration abilities to enable it to work really well for your brand and of course it’s conversational so if you’ve got the integration data right you can then have the AI and the automation helping customers convers with your WhatsApp or you can have real-life agents doing it too.

                34:26.650 –> 34:34.355

                [SPEAKER_00]: You can get your hands on all the notes from this episode, including the top tips and links to what we’ve mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterplanned.com.

                34:34.796 –> 34:45.443

                [SPEAKER_00]: You can also use our direct episode short links, just put ECMP dot info forward slash the number of this episode into the URL bar and you’ll be redirected straight to the right page on the website.

                34:46.164 –> 34:48.846

                [SPEAKER_00]: When you get to the website, why not add yourself to our email list?

                34:49.186 –> 34:51.347

                [SPEAKER_00]: Not yet our WhatsApp list, but definitely to our

                34:55.270 –> 35:01.073

                [SPEAKER_00]: And if you liked this episode, then why not have a listen to episode 529 529?

                35:02.554 –> 35:11.580

                [SPEAKER_00]: Where I’m chatting with a super successful e-commerce brand owner about how they’ve been leveraging WhatsApp in their business to build both sales and community.

                35:12.300 –> 35:16.264

                [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for tuning into this and every episode of the e-commerce master plan podcast.

                35:16.644 –> 35:27.194

                [SPEAKER_00]: I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help e-commerce business owners like you to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including progressing along the path to net zero.

                35:27.734 –> 35:34.240

                [SPEAKER_00]: So, if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast.

                35:34.580 –> 35:37.363

                [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

                35:40.603 –> 35:43.906

                [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening to the eCommerce Master Plan podcast.

                35:44.386 –> 35:49.170

                [SPEAKER_01]: Find out more at eCommercemasterplanned.com Slash Podcast.

                36 min
              • eCommerce MasterPlan | 561: WWYD? Ian Leslie on Achieving Hockey Stick Growth in a $10–25M eCommerce Brand

                Ian Leslie is an eCommerce CMO who’s also done stints in SaaS marketing, journalism, and education. Probably best known for his 10 years driving 15x eCommerce revenue growth at B2B eCommerce furniture brand Industry West, where (as regular listeners to this show will know) he was always up to something different with his marketing budget – that usually paid off! 

                WWYD is a brand new format for the show – where we ask some of our favourite and most knowledgable eCommerce friends… “What would you do?”. 

                In this new WWYD? episode, Ian shares his roadmap for scaling fast—bootstrapped growth, nonstop testing, lean operations, and breaking the beliefs that hold brands back. 

                 

                Hit PLAY to hear: 

                 

                • Ian’s playbook for driving hockey stick growth in a $10–25M ecommerce brand 
                • Why constant testing across the funnel is the real growth engine 
                • How cutting overheads frees up cash to fuel marketing and product 
                • The limiting beliefs holding back ecommerce businesses (and how to break them) 
                • How to balance agency support with in-house agility for faster results 

                  •  

                  Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

                  [05:52] “Pragmatic Growth in SaaS Marketing” 

                  [07:52] Always Be Testing and Optimizing 

                  [12:08] Reevaluate Post-Retheme Testing Practices 

                  [13:03] Overcoming Imposter Syndrome in Testing 

                  [18:08] Dynamic Testing: Leadership’s Role 

                  [19:19] Listen to Ian’s Top Tips! 

                   

                  Full episode notes here: https://ecmp.info/561  

                  —

                  Download our ebook… https://ecmp.info/ebook 500 Tips to Increase Your Profits

                  Get all the links and resources we mention and join our email list at https://ecmp.info

                  Love the show? Chloe would love your feedback – leave a review here: https://ecmp.info/review or reply to the episode QandA on Spotify.

                  Interested in being a Sponsor? go here: https://ecmp.info/sponsor

                  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

                  Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

                  WEBVTT

                  00:00.031 –> 00:22.723

                  [SPEAKER_02]: We have brands that go in and spend eighty hundred two hundred thousand dollars on the re-themed and then just let the re-themed sit and don’t test on top of it because well I just paid all this money to the agency to do this amazing work and if I do want to test well really shouldn’t I be having the agency room to test because they know what the aesthetic should be and they know what the front end design is

                  00:25.913 –> 00:28.297

                  [SPEAKER_01]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

                  00:28.858 –> 00:32.924

                  [SPEAKER_01]: Here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

                  00:33.465 –> 00:41.236

                  [SPEAKER_01]: Cutting through the highly to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

                  00:44.874 –> 00:47.115

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome, it’s great to have you here.

                  00:47.215 –> 00:50.917

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

                  00:51.357 –> 00:55.158

                  [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, we’re revealing a brand new type of episode.

                  00:55.238 –> 00:59.420

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, ten years in and we’ve done a little bit of a of newness.

                  01:00.961 –> 01:05.483

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Rather than our guests discussing what they have done, they’ll be sharing what they would do.

                  01:06.703 –> 01:11.967

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So we’re calling these the WWYDs, or the what would you do episodes?

                  01:12.387 –> 01:25.395

                  [SPEAKER_00]: In this case we’ve got regular guests, possibly our most regular guest Ian Leslie, back on the show, to share what he’d do if he were to take over an e-commerce business in the ten to twenty five million dollar range.

                  01:26.076 –> 01:27.397

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And we’ll be talking through

                  01:28.421 –> 01:33.488

                  [SPEAKER_00]: what Ian would do when he took it over in order to achieve a level of hockey stick growth.

                  01:33.589 –> 01:35.671

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So fast growth within this business.

                  01:36.573 –> 01:43.603

                  [SPEAKER_00]: I’m hoping that what would you do episodes give us a chance to get deep into this strategic decision making that goes on behind the scenes.

                  01:43.663 –> 01:44.224

                  [SPEAKER_00]: The real

                  01:45.285 –> 01:53.270

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Let’s shiny more fundamental stuff that people will do in tackle, whilst also learning some hot news strategies into the mix as well.

                  01:53.350 –> 01:57.652

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So please do let me know what you think about this new format.

                  01:57.992 –> 02:05.097

                  [SPEAKER_00]: The easiest option is to leave us a review, just go to ECMP.info forward slash review to find out how to do that.

                  02:05.637 –> 02:07.018

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Ian and I will be discussing.

                  02:07.698 –> 02:15.089

                  [SPEAKER_00]: how he would take over and take to a point of success and e-commerce business in the ten to twenty five million dollar turnover range.

                  02:15.830 –> 02:23.182

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And we will be getting deep into cutting costs and also getting into testing.

                  02:23.722 –> 02:25.204

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Testing, testing, testing.

                  02:25.925 –> 02:27.648

                  [SPEAKER_00]: You have to listen to understand all of that.

                  02:28.288 –> 02:32.073

                  [SPEAKER_00]: This might be a new episode format, but we have not dropped the top tip section.

                  02:32.093 –> 02:36.860

                  [SPEAKER_00]: They are still there, and Ian’s come up with some absolutely lovely juicy ones for you.

                  02:36.900 –> 02:39.023

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So make sure you listen to the end to get all of that.

                  02:44.012 –> 02:45.992

                  [SPEAKER_00]: and now to introduce our special guest.

                  02:46.393 –> 02:52.414

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Ian Leslie is an e-commerce CMO who’s done since in sass marketing journalism and education.

                  02:52.814 –> 03:00.796

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Probably best known for his ten years driving fifteen X e-commerce revenue growth at B to B e-commerce furniture brand industry West.

                  03:01.176 –> 03:08.717

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Where, as regular listeners to this show will know, he was always up to something different with his marketing budget that almost always paid off.

                  03:09.077 –> 03:09.778

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Hello Ian.

                  03:10.178 –> 03:11.418

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, so good to be here.

                  03:11.458 –> 03:11.758

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

                  03:12.158 –> 03:20.988

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Always cool to have you on the show, especially cool to have you here to kick off our brand new revolutionary new content for about the what would you do ever say?

                  03:21.108 –> 03:23.250

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you do excellent, so exciting.

                  03:23.611 –> 03:28.836

                  [SPEAKER_00]: You were last on the show in December, which feels about a million years ago.

                  03:28.856 –> 03:31.399

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So how has twenty twenty five been going?

                  03:31.419 –> 03:31.980

                  [SPEAKER_00]: What’s been going on?

                  03:32.391 –> 03:35.472

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It’s been interesting here in the US and internationally.

                  03:35.512 –> 03:42.054

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I think all of us in the e-commerce are dealing with an interesting economy and tariffs and such.

                  03:42.834 –> 03:46.275

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it’s been an interesting, I guess, now nine months.

                  03:46.595 –> 03:55.358

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But most of that, the early part of the twenty-five, I was still within the tree list, stepped away over the summer, so no longer within the tree list.

                  03:55.478 –> 03:56.578

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think overall,

                  03:57.495 –> 04:00.917

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It’s been no different for me than a lot of other people in the space.

                  04:00.997 –> 04:03.278

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I could just say it’s it’s been interesting.

                  04:04.418 –> 04:09.341

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I think we’re all kind of trying to figure it out and try to figure out the global marketplace.

                  04:09.821 –> 04:11.862

                  [SPEAKER_00]: The ever changing global marketplace.

                  04:11.902 –> 04:16.024

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I do wonder does the global marketplace factor into your what would you do?

                  04:16.064 –> 04:17.965

                  [SPEAKER_00]: We’ll find out as we continue this chat bit.

                  04:18.465 –> 04:20.807

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us what your what would you do is?

                  04:21.287 –> 04:22.067

                  [SPEAKER_02]: What would I do?

                  04:22.327 –> 04:23.208

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So I’m going to think

                  04:24.070 –> 04:29.674

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I’ve recently been called a builder multiple times over the past two or three weeks.

                  04:29.774 –> 04:32.116

                  [SPEAKER_02]: That’s my sweet spot is building things.

                  04:32.236 –> 04:41.102

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So my, what would you do is I would start with a ten to twenty million hour e-commerce company and would to build it further.

                  04:41.442 –> 04:52.470

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So we’re talking like a doubling in two years or a bootstrapped growth or what sort of build would you want to do with that business you take over?

                  04:52.700 –> 04:53.741

                  [SPEAKER_02]: That’s a great question.

                  04:53.941 –> 04:59.945

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I would definitely think a huge drop growth, but with a high, definitely a high curve.

                  05:00.225 –> 05:11.572

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the amazing things about industry was that it was always privately held, so it was always a huge drop growth, but that did not get in the way of us often seeing a hockey stick of growth.

                  05:12.409 –> 05:13.710

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that a reference work in the UK?

                  05:13.770 –> 05:14.390

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t even know.

                  05:14.410 –> 05:15.891

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, that does work in the UK.

                  05:16.071 –> 05:16.351

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It does.

                  05:16.532 –> 05:19.153

                  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the economists have stolen the hockey sticks.

                  05:19.754 –> 05:24.096

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but yeah, so I mean, I think you can walk and shoot them a bit with it with that.

                  05:24.476 –> 05:38.125

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I often use like the wash and wear metaphor and I wouldn’t want to wash and wear like I would want to continue to grow and continue to build a continue to see a grow and not just not just build a company to then sit by and just let it kind of coast.

                  05:38.857 –> 05:39.258

                  [SPEAKER_00]: nice.

                  05:39.398 –> 05:41.801

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So pragmatic growth.

                  05:41.961 –> 05:43.903

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Do we say in the world of beat strapping?

                  05:44.104 –> 05:45.045

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, yeah, that’s her.

                  05:45.345 –> 05:47.748

                  [SPEAKER_00]: But not as dull as the word programmatic.

                  05:47.788 –> 05:52.394

                  [SPEAKER_00]: When did that come from play as the word, pragmatic suggests?

                  05:52.674 –> 05:53.535

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that’s interesting.

                  05:53.555 –> 05:55.498

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t even know if I can really define pragmatic.

                  05:55.658 –> 05:57.821

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, pragmatic growth sounds fair.

                  05:58.181 –> 05:59.583

                  [SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned my SaaS experience.

                  05:59.663 –> 06:12.458

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I’ve been part of companies on the SaaS side that were literally just throwing good money after bad and just get as many eyes on your product as you can, even though they weren’t necessarily going to be, you know,

                  06:12.978 –> 06:35.645

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Good good customers are good users of the product which made absolutely no sense So I’ve never been like a Just spend spend spend spend spend spend for no get reason kind of marketer But I think like on the other hand I’ve also been like you find a good formula then then why not spend to to the extent that you can like if it’s working if you’re seeing fifteen X like keep pouring money into that

                  06:36.012 –> 06:48.081

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So you’ve taken over acquired a ten to twenty five million dollar business that you’re going to be bootstrapping, but aiming for hockey stick growth within that.

                  06:48.621 –> 06:48.841

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

                  06:49.302 –> 06:52.944

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Hard task you’re setting yourself out, but obviously you’ve done your due diligence.

                  06:53.104 –> 06:55.606

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So what’s the first thing you do?

                  06:55.866 –> 06:58.268

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it dive into the marketing and work on that?

                  06:58.368 –> 07:00.470

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it work on another area of the business?

                  07:00.630 –> 07:03.332

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Where’s the area that’s going to get your focus first?

                  07:03.938 –> 07:06.740

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, but I think yes on all of that.

                  07:06.880 –> 07:12.203

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think my first task would be like two things I guess all the marketing side.

                  07:12.804 –> 07:16.646

                  [SPEAKER_02]: If I’m acquiring this, I would be a brand that I think has energy, it looks good.

                  07:16.686 –> 07:18.147

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It has a spot in the marketplace.

                  07:18.227 –> 07:22.250

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And like, it would probably wouldn’t be something where I’m just traveling to totally rebuild a website or anything.

                  07:22.310 –> 07:25.072

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So my first thing would be like test test test test test.

                  07:25.132 –> 07:26.152

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I definitely didn’t pass.

                  07:26.593 –> 07:28.454

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I’d say month to team on Siv.

                  07:29.054 –> 07:35.377

                  [SPEAKER_02]: really kicked myself on what I thought testing was is not what I was doing.

                  07:35.697 –> 07:44.921

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So like running one or two AB tests is not testing and I think like I’ve learned and some of that has been in some of my contract work over the past month or two.

                  07:45.661 –> 07:49.425

                  [SPEAKER_02]: is that, like, you should be testing, like, fifteen things on your website at the same time.

                  07:49.445 –> 07:52.968

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It really not run into any kind of data integrity issue.

                  07:53.208 –> 07:54.689

                  [SPEAKER_02]: This has to randomize properly.

                  07:54.709 –> 07:56.450

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I think, like, test tests, test tests.

                  07:56.470 –> 08:00.554

                  [SPEAKER_02]: There are so many tools out there right now, and I’m going to save mine for the tooltips part.

                  08:01.054 –> 08:11.023

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But there’s so many tools out there right now where you can be, you know, just testing across the entire funnel and, you know, testing copy testing, images just in colors, testing recommendations.

                  08:11.583 –> 08:16.527

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So I would say like definitely be testing constantly and really have a good CRO plan in place.

                  08:17.147 –> 08:27.435

                  [SPEAKER_02]: The other piece I think is just overhead is, you know, what are we spending on everything that is not marketing and sales and product and really diving really deep into that?

                  08:27.455 –> 08:38.123

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I think there’s a lot of thought boys on the social media who are, you know, how I ran this company with two people and a lot of SaaS and often even I want to look at that and be like,

                  08:38.730 –> 08:51.384

                  [SPEAKER_02]: really like did you that that I often think like yeah really you can like I don’t think the companies have to be as large in terms of overhead as sometimes you think it needs to be.

                  08:51.484 –> 08:59.714

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So I think looking at cutting a lot of that cost and reinvesting it into product marketing and sales is all the two places I would start.

                  09:00.504 –> 09:01.705

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So much to unpack there.

                  09:01.825 –> 09:09.870

                  [SPEAKER_00]: First off, thank you for being such a professional podcast guest that you’ve already teed up the fact that people need to listen to the end to find out those door recommendations.

                  09:09.890 –> 09:10.510

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So loving that.

                  09:11.071 –> 09:22.798

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think your point about the overhead and actually the testing as well is seeing how someone else does it can also burst your limiting beliefs.

                  09:23.378 –> 09:28.163

                  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like on the testing front, you thought, like, we’re running to at the time, that’s fine.

                  09:28.483 –> 09:32.047

                  [SPEAKER_00]: You get to go and do some contracting work and peek behind someone else’s curtain all of a sudden.

                  09:32.067 –> 09:37.552

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It’s like, oh, man, we could have been doing fifteen if we’d have deployed this and this and this and then on the overhead stuff.

                  09:38.073 –> 09:44.679

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It’s like, yeah, those guys who were, you know, as you said, were two people all SaaS growing to crazy numbers.

                  09:45.380 –> 09:49.503

                  [SPEAKER_00]: They’re an outlier, but there’s still a lot we can all learn from.

                  09:49.523 –> 09:51.925

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it does attack those limiting beliefs again.

                  09:51.945 –> 09:53.626

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, of course, I have to have someone doing that.

                  09:54.146 –> 09:54.807

                  [SPEAKER_00]: But do you?

                  09:55.307 –> 10:01.271

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Is that five percent of the job that you can’t automate worth having someone doing a hundred percent of the job?

                  10:01.992 –> 10:07.936

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So would it mainly be head count that was the target for your overhead cutting or would it be other things as well?

                  10:07.956 –> 10:12.499

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, would you switch to a three-piece out instead of in-house fulfilment or anything like that?

                  10:12.883 –> 10:17.226

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But yes, again, obviously, I think it depends on what the vertical is.

                  10:18.007 –> 10:20.929

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So without getting into too much, yes, specifics.

                  10:21.469 –> 10:25.332

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of efficiency in three PL as opposed to in-house.

                  10:25.372 –> 10:27.613

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it depends at what revenue band you’re at.

                  10:28.094 –> 10:33.898

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think in that as you’re growing in that mid-twenties, it makes sense to be at a three PL.

                  10:34.498 –> 10:37.359

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think it just depends, especially with AI tools.

                  10:37.739 –> 10:47.263

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And like, I don’t want to get too far down the path of like, and I don’t want people coming after me, like, graphic designers, so you’re going to lose jobs and copy retro, show using jobs.

                  10:47.363 –> 10:51.125

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But like, do we need as many in-house creative as we have?

                  10:51.385 –> 10:53.626

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Do we need as many in the warehouse as we have?

                  10:53.686 –> 10:56.507

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Do we need all the systems to support

                  10:57.750 –> 10:58.370

                  [SPEAKER_02]: or knows.

                  10:58.490 –> 11:06.494

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there’s just, I feel like there is a sect of e-commerce that’s still trying to build Fortune five hundred model companies.

                  11:07.115 –> 11:10.076

                  [SPEAKER_02]: That’s just not going to be sustainable in this day and age.

                  11:10.536 –> 11:13.938

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But there’s as much as it costs to get to your customer with as much as it costs.

                  11:14.158 –> 11:15.879

                  [SPEAKER_02]: We’re going to hit with import costs.

                  11:16.579 –> 11:19.401

                  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to find affordability somewhere.

                  11:19.441 –> 11:21.702

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of that’s going to be in your operations.

                  11:22.262 –> 11:23.163

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I’ll be other piece.

                  11:23.784 –> 11:25.445

                  [SPEAKER_02]: You said it amazingly well just now.

                  11:26.206 –> 11:27.067

                  [SPEAKER_02]: How did you phrase that?

                  11:27.307 –> 11:44.102

                  [SPEAKER_00]: The limiting belief is one of those kind of self-development theories where we go, well, I can’t possibly be on a stage or I can’t possibly do that myself or I can’t and I just think sometimes it also comes into how you structure a business like, well, of course I need an accounts team.

                  11:44.803 –> 11:49.005

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, we have to invoice after we’ve done all the work.

                  11:49.325 –> 11:55.568

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you just need someone to go to show you how things are done elsewhere to help you shift those curtains.

                  11:55.948 –> 12:08.174

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And I often think when you’re taking over a business or you’re entering a business as an employee, even one of your roles in the first couple of months for the benefit of that business is to break the limiting beliefs.

                  12:08.594 –> 12:25.543

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so my takeaway recently on the AV testing side and as it pertains to those limiting beliefs is that and again, I don’t know if I’m going to put some people off here because I have a lot of good friends in the development space and the agency space and I think they’re amazing people and I think they do amazing work, but I think

                  12:26.283 –> 12:44.826

                  [SPEAKER_02]: We have brands that go in and spend eighty hundred two hundred thousand dollars on the re-themed and then just let the re-themed sit and don’t test on top of it because well I just paid all this money to the agency to do this amazing work and if I do want to test well really shouldn’t I be having the agency room to test because

                  12:45.742 –> 13:09.653

                  [SPEAKER_02]: they know what the aesthetic should be and they know what the front end design is and oh this font it doesn’t entirely match so I shouldn’t do it in the colors in the pixel perfection and I think that’s where I was before this most recent spell of well I’m not equipped to do the testing because I paid an agency but now Shopify and frankly like John GPT have made it so easy to

                  13:10.433 –> 13:15.376

                  [SPEAKER_02]: change CSS to do all these things that it’s like really will want why can’t I do it?

                  13:15.536 –> 13:39.750

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I’ve always had imposter syndrome, my entire career, but I’ve never had that limiting belief as you’re saying like I always would be wanting to get in the weeds and do the work and really test and do, but when I came to actual AB testing like I was really just at the tip of the iceberg and I think a lot of that is as wise because like we work with these agencies that are amazing like don’t get me wrong, but like

                  13:40.419 –> 13:44.582

                  [SPEAKER_02]: They’re not doing the day testing that we should be doing.

                  13:44.602 –> 13:48.884

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And like I said, I think there’s so many opportunities now to just play with things.

                  13:48.944 –> 13:54.767

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you can’t figure it out, just I started a website for my like, I’m a builder, like a half year.

                  13:54.827 –> 13:57.849

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And I’ve had this little spell in between full-time jobs.

                  13:57.869 –> 13:59.730

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It’s how I like, I was so bored.

                  13:59.790 –> 14:01.091

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I made my wife start a company.

                  14:02.832 –> 14:04.053

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So my life’s a thrifter.

                  14:05.028 –> 14:34.435

                  [SPEAKER_02]: an amazing thrifter maybe that’s our next maybe that might be through the tip later to another tip for our wife’s the thrifter and she finds these amazing things and I was like we need to start our website we need to sell more across the country with what you thrift as opposed like the local marketplaces and so I built a Shopify safer and then there were things I just just you wanted me to change on the site and I didn’t know how to do it and I literally just like asked AI at a game of the CSS and I put it in and it was like super easy and I was so proud of myself

                  14:35.095 –> 14:52.225

                  [SPEAKER_02]: While I was doing that there were changes I would have made to other websites I’ve worked on in the past that I just didn’t because I was like I don’t know I was scared to because it was Managed by people smarter than me, but I think like yeah, I don’t have that limiting belief anymore.

                  14:52.245 –> 14:53.186

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t think

                  14:53.690 –> 14:57.551

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So is fixing that in this new business that you’re going to take on?

                  14:58.391 –> 15:03.452

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Is embracing this full-on testing scenario?

                  15:04.112 –> 15:07.133

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it about the team’s mentality?

                  15:07.333 –> 15:10.273

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it about Ian getting in there and running a load of tests?

                  15:10.553 –> 15:19.775

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it about building stronger less siloed relationships with the agencies and the other teams that are the outsourced people who are working on it?

                  15:20.155 –> 15:25.358

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Would you tackle it top down or kind of boss him up culture shift?

                  15:25.378 –> 15:27.379

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that’s great a great question.

                  15:27.419 –> 15:31.861

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Like because I do think, I mean, you’re in this twenty thirty forty million dollar range.

                  15:31.881 –> 15:33.442

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Like you still need agencies, right?

                  15:33.482 –> 15:35.042

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Like my Shopify site crashes.

                  15:35.103 –> 15:39.064

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I need someone like server side, whatever it may be like I need help.

                  15:39.585 –> 15:43.627

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s not that the agencies don’t have a role anymore, but I think it has to be

                  15:44.467 –> 15:53.491

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Interwoven between like we’re not gonna wait on agency sprints and the internal team is going to test and like we’re going to have a good ecosystem of communication there.

                  15:53.511 –> 16:04.537

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean if I’m acquiring a brand and like I should probably be the one doing all the testing if I’m doing a lot of other things but like yeah, and I think it needs to be a culture of testing and I think that goes

                  16:05.718 –> 16:06.900

                  [SPEAKER_02]: across the board, right?

                  16:06.980 –> 16:15.289

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it needs to be a culture of testing in finance and needs to be a culture of testing in email marketing and needs to be a culture of testing in product.

                  16:15.850 –> 16:22.198

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So I’m going to think that’s both building an ecosystem and a culture of testing in house, but then how do you take that?

                  16:22.798 –> 16:42.861

                  [SPEAKER_02]: to your agency partners and say like okay I’m not afraid to try XYZ and I feel like I’ve always been pretty good about that I think people who’ve worked with me would say like on media buys like I’d pilot always piloting things, always trying different things but I think for whatever reason again on like the front end web piece was not good at that

                  16:43.256 –> 16:53.763

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It is so much easier, I think, to test when you’re doing media buys, than it is to test on the website, because it’s a lot easier to work out what to test.

                  16:54.244 –> 16:58.046

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It’s very easy to create a culture of, it’s not very easy to create a culture of testing.

                  16:58.086 –> 17:02.950

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It’s relatively easy to create a culture of testing in a business and to encourage everybody to be doing testing.

                  17:02.990 –> 17:11.316

                  [SPEAKER_00]: What’s harder is to get a culture of testing and testing behavior happening that leads to good results.

                  17:11.896 –> 17:17.558

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, people working out of the twenty ideas I’ve got, which are actually worth testing.

                  17:17.858 –> 17:18.098

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

                  17:18.458 –> 17:23.980

                  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like changing a button color probably not changing your Facebook graphics.

                  17:24.741 –> 17:30.363

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Probably doing some customer research to lead into better email content, probably worth doing.

                  17:31.503 –> 17:44.657

                  [SPEAKER_00]: What I’m trying to say is I think that has to be an element of Ian as the person who’s taken over the business, being involved in helping create the testing or agreeing the testing activity and monitoring the results as that builds probably.

                  17:44.978 –> 17:45.218

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

                  17:45.558 –> 17:45.839

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

                  17:45.879 –> 17:46.299

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I’ll do it.

                  17:46.459 –> 17:46.780

                  [SPEAKER_02]: You’re right.

                  17:48.292 –> 17:49.332

                  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think you’re right.

                  17:49.572 –> 17:56.314

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I don’t want to embarrass ourselves like how old we are, but I think we were relative at the same age and we came up around several to the same time as a marketer.

                  17:56.334 –> 18:01.895

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we all got duped by that narrative of Facebook, tested the color of its blue.

                  18:02.855 –> 18:03.895

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And that was AB tests.

                  18:03.975 –> 18:05.275

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And so that’s what we’re all going with.

                  18:05.335 –> 18:06.976

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I’m going to try a red check out button.

                  18:07.016 –> 18:08.456

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And I’m going to try a black check out button.

                  18:08.496 –> 18:09.776

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And let’s see which ones wins.

                  18:09.836 –> 18:16.398

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And like, yeah, but that’s the most baseline under baseline of AB testing.

                  18:16.438 –> 18:17.298

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, I think like

                  18:17.778 –> 18:20.379

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think someone needs to put to your point.

                  18:20.439 –> 18:29.503

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Like the person at the top needs to be the one driving how creative or how out of the box or how dynamic do we want to be in our testing?

                  18:29.543 –> 18:37.546

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Do we want to be at a surface level as I’m going to test a red versus green button or do I want to be as you know be testing

                  18:38.595 –> 19:01.075

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Free shipping to what level do we need to get to offer free shipping what upsells and offer what forgiveness we want offer where things placed on the page do we want to get rid of the entire home page you haven’t just land on nothing but a product grid I mean there’s a lot of conversation out there about how like how PDP’s are dying but yes to your point yeah that needs to come from the top down of how dynamic do we want to be in testing across the board

                  19:02.200 –> 19:06.942

                  [SPEAKER_01]: Ecommerce Masterplan is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the Ecommerce sector.

                  19:07.082 –> 19:08.483

                  [SPEAKER_01]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

                  19:19.407 –> 19:24.209

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I love this section because me and our listeners some really quick ideas for taking our business to the next level.

                  19:24.229 –> 19:30.572

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So Ian, are you ready to spill the tips you’ve been even teasing us with all episode?

                  19:30.692 –> 19:32.392

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the book top tip.

                  19:32.492 –> 19:38.875

                  [SPEAKER_00]: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

                  19:39.242 –> 19:43.447

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I’ve been a thing for a fifth or sixth time doing a podcast with you, so I don’t remember all the books.

                  19:45.009 –> 19:47.932

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But I don’t think I recommend it in a reasonable hospitality.

                  19:48.272 –> 19:50.315

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So I’ve just a really good book just.

                  19:51.217 –> 20:18.192

                  [SPEAKER_02]: especially now like we’re all watching the bear and everything just you know what it takes to be hospitable this is like the book is say you know in a restaurant it’s about a chef and just what he did you know to create hospitality his restaurant as he looked to get you know visual and stars etc but yeah just unreasonable hospitality what it takes you know in terms of customer service how to deal with your consumers well so yeah good book for for people in sales marketing really anyone who just wants to make people happy

                  20:18.701 –> 20:19.021

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Nice.

                  20:19.141 –> 20:22.243

                  [SPEAKER_00]: I’ve not heard of that one, and I still haven’t watched the bear either.

                  20:22.343 –> 20:25.524

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So that’s a couple of big todays for me.

                  20:26.104 –> 20:31.747

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either prize above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves?

                  20:32.207 –> 20:34.368

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I’ll be honest, this one just stumped me.

                  20:34.528 –> 20:35.748

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I’ve said them all.

                  20:36.268 –> 20:45.692

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, I don’t recall if I did this set this one last time, but we were doing something called an issue S where we were taking out billboards on trucks in Manhattan.

                  20:46.092 –> 20:46.893

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So there’s a company

                  20:47.473 –> 20:59.003

                  [SPEAKER_02]: and it cashed and they misgaped soon right now, but there’s a company that work with the truck companies throughout the tri-state area, particularly in the metro area in New York, and they just rent the billboard space out on the side of the truck.

                  20:59.063 –> 21:02.787

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So you have a truck in Manhattan that’s delivering or nose-wise delivering.

                  21:02.827 –> 21:03.908

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It’s not delivering or furniture.

                  21:03.928 –> 21:11.655

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It could be delivering a crow to you, so you could be delivering anything, but people think it’s your truck because it’s skinned with your brand on it, and they’ve done a lot of cool things.

                  21:11.755 –> 21:12.635

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was really cool.

                  21:12.675 –> 21:14.277

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I’m just cool to see the truck

                  21:14.897 –> 21:39.757

                  [SPEAKER_02]: around New York and there’s also some other aspects where you can like IP target people within like a hundred foot range of the truck or something but yeah so I would say yeah just I think and we did again like piloting anything we did digital billboards in Times Square and I think people are like billboards or did you know that sort of thing but I mean I think it’s everything all becomes new again and I think there’s cool things out there to do

                  21:40.204 –> 21:41.385

                  [SPEAKER_00]: us so much so.

                  21:41.565 –> 21:45.709

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And I I love that you have told us the trucks in Manhattan one before, but it’s so good.

                  21:45.749 –> 21:53.175

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It deserves retelling because I don’t apologize because one of my favorite things about it is the social pre-felliment.

                  21:53.395 –> 22:03.343

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you know, it creates a admittedly fake, but it does create an element of, oh, well, if they’re delivering a lot in Manhattan, then they must be for Manhattan people.

                  22:03.383 –> 22:05.065

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And I’m a Manhattan person.

                  22:05.105 –> 22:05.765

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So I need.

                  22:06.026 –> 22:06.246

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

                  22:06.506 –> 22:07.847

                  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, their products, it’s clever.

                  22:07.927 –> 22:12.149

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And you could replicate it in any city, village, however small.

                  22:12.889 –> 22:17.191

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not as easily as the truck company who already selling the spaces, but you could do it anywhere.

                  22:17.552 –> 22:17.892

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Love it.

                  22:17.952 –> 22:18.192

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

                  22:18.632 –> 22:22.094

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And let’s face it, not enough e-commerce businesses do stuff offline.

                  22:22.114 –> 22:22.874

                  [SPEAKER_02]: That’s true.

                  22:23.154 –> 22:24.095

                  [SPEAKER_00]: We should do more of that.

                  22:24.255 –> 22:25.476

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, tool, top tip.

                  22:25.636 –> 22:33.840

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plugin, a phone app or just a way of working, is there a cool little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day?

                  22:34.260 –> 22:35.941

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Have you heard of this thing called AI yet?

                  22:36.582 –> 22:37.743

                  [SPEAKER_00]: You don’t you mean A one.

                  22:37.763 –> 22:44.128

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but yeah, I said so from maybe testing front.

                  22:44.589 –> 22:49.553

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I’ve used visually visually BIS UALY.

                  22:50.093 –> 22:52.355

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s a super cool AB testing tool.

                  22:52.675 –> 22:55.177

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It plugs like literally right in the Shopify.

                  22:55.197 –> 22:57.739

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It grabs your entire theme in like thirty seconds.

                  22:58.280 –> 23:01.422

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Is this really cool tool if you’re looking at AB testing?

                  23:01.542 –> 23:03.504

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So I would it’s super efficient.

                  23:04.084 –> 23:05.546

                  [SPEAKER_02]: You don’t need to work with devs on it.

                  23:05.767 –> 23:06.868

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So I would recommend that.

                  23:06.948 –> 23:15.119

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But all joking aside on the AI piece, I still think like most marketers are really just like skinning iceberg or tip of iceberg.

                  23:15.179 –> 23:21.948

                  [SPEAKER_02]: And however you want to say, it’s getting the surface with how we’re using AI just in order to do the job and like I mentioned, I mean,

                  23:22.807 –> 23:34.549

                  [SPEAKER_02]: just generating CSS or your website like he don’t like where button looks like, you know, this is whatever, like, S, shut GPT and it’ll like tell you what theme you’re running and it’ll, I mean, obviously if we’re running custom themes.

                  23:35.029 –> 23:41.811

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of ways to do that and I think just just really taking advantage of AI and I think is really interesting.

                  23:41.971 –> 23:47.892

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, AI keeps me much more efficient, chat GPT and put on the AB testing I would recommend visually.

                  23:48.353 –> 23:48.733

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Nice.

                  23:49.093 –> 23:51.234

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So, last one, the carbon top tip.

                  23:51.594 –> 23:55.176

                  [SPEAKER_00]: What’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

                  23:55.416 –> 24:11.423

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I know I’ve given this answer before, and I really don’t have any, would the past ten years being in furniture, it’s really difficult to talk about how many carbon, you know, a lot of ways we’ve saved in terms of carbon, and we definitely tried to be a fish in terms of packaging and tried to be a fish in just in how limiting waste.

                  24:11.543 –> 24:17.326

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think the biggest piece for furniture companies is to the extent that you can, I don’t, don’t have people return things.

                  24:18.071 –> 24:19.352

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It’s not cost-efficient for them.

                  24:19.412 –> 24:21.534

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It’s not a cost-efficient for you most of the time.

                  24:21.574 –> 24:23.215

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It’s just like, let them have it.

                  24:23.895 –> 24:33.582

                  [SPEAKER_02]: If it’s slightly damaged, like, let them have it and have them resell it and keep it, you know, but without, you know, the extra packaging without the extra gas and whatever to get it back to the warehouse.

                  24:34.003 –> 24:35.204

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So I know that’s something we did.

                  24:35.224 –> 24:46.192

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I would say just to the extent, if you can afford to eat and return, eat the return and don’t have the extra fuel in the air from carbon in the air from that return,

                  24:46.590 –> 24:52.036

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it’s one of those which is becoming increasingly debated even in areas like fashion.

                  24:52.217 –> 24:54.319

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Should we actually ask for that to be returned?

                  24:55.000 –> 24:56.582

                  [SPEAKER_00]: When you get into the numbers of it,

                  24:57.855 –> 25:02.258

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It has surprising results when you start considering should we actually ask for that to be sent back?

                  25:02.438 –> 25:03.299

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it worth it?

                  25:04.019 –> 25:06.781

                  [SPEAKER_00]: On both the finance side and the carbon side as well.

                  25:06.881 –> 25:12.545

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So a weird one, a counter-intuitive one because I think we always might want the product back.

                  25:12.625 –> 25:12.985

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

                  25:13.285 –> 25:14.646

                  [SPEAKER_00]: But it can be hugely powerful.

                  25:14.806 –> 25:17.108

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, then there’s a customer royalty aspect as well.

                  25:17.299 –> 25:18.321

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, exactly.

                  25:18.401 –> 25:23.389

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It’s like most customers are not going to be annoyed by you telling them they don’t have to trace to the post office.

                  25:23.569 –> 25:23.889

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

                  25:24.030 –> 25:24.591

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

                  25:24.771 –> 25:25.071

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

                  25:25.292 –> 25:25.512

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

                  25:25.532 –> 25:25.792

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Totally.

                  25:25.893 –> 25:26.233

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

                  25:26.293 –> 25:32.203

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So Ian, before we say goodbye, kid, do you please let the listeners know where they can get in touch if they’ve got questions or want to chat?

                  25:32.574 –> 25:34.215

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I am on LinkedIn.

                  25:34.375 –> 25:35.995

                  [SPEAKER_02]: There’s a lot of Ian Leslie’s on LinkedIn.

                  25:36.055 –> 25:36.656

                  [SPEAKER_02]: It’s really weird.

                  25:36.836 –> 25:38.556

                  [SPEAKER_02]: But I’m the one who’s CMO.

                  25:39.016 –> 25:40.437

                  [SPEAKER_02]: There are most of our CMOs.

                  25:40.457 –> 25:42.318

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So if you’re going to find a LinkedIn, I’ll be there.

                  25:42.438 –> 25:44.759

                  [SPEAKER_02]: I’m on Twitter at IR Leslie.

                  25:45.399 –> 25:47.260

                  [SPEAKER_02]: That’s pretty much where to find me right now.

                  25:47.580 –> 25:50.061

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And I know you’re doing contracting at the moment.

                  25:50.381 –> 25:52.021

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you all saying looking for jobs?

                  25:52.041 –> 25:53.142

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to do a pitch for that?

                  25:53.570 –> 25:56.511

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, do some contracting booth in the conversion higher ed right now.

                  25:56.531 –> 26:01.192

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, I’ve been told recently a lot, often that I am a builder.

                  26:01.352 –> 26:05.133

                  [SPEAKER_02]: So if anyone needs help building something, I’m all ears.

                  26:05.513 –> 26:05.853

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.

                  26:05.933 –> 26:06.893

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Ian.

                  26:06.933 –> 26:08.434

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It’s always a pleasure to catch up with you.

                  26:08.534 –> 26:09.854

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you for being our first.

                  26:10.154 –> 26:11.374

                  [SPEAKER_00]: What would you do, Ginny Pegg?

                  26:11.474 –> 26:12.355

                  [SPEAKER_00]: You’ve been a star.

                  26:12.595 –> 26:13.315

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, Oding.

                  26:13.375 –> 26:13.675

                  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

                  26:19.283 –> 26:21.504

                  [SPEAKER_00]: always a pleasure to catch up with Ian.

                  26:21.584 –> 26:34.151

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And I loved his simplicity, but complexity, there we say, of his approach to taking over a ten to twenty five million dollar business, looked approaching two ways first off.

                  26:34.811 –> 26:39.193

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Overhead, what that isn’t marketing sales or product can we cut coston?

                  26:39.613 –> 26:49.118

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Where can we cut the costs to create more cash that we can spend in our bootstrapping mindset on our marketing or sales and our products to improve the performance of the overall business?

                  26:49.718 –> 26:52.099

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And then to test, test, test, test, test.

                  26:52.559 –> 26:56.621

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously a lot of CROs are marketing, lots of messages, so on and so forth.

                  26:56.721 –> 27:00.283

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And it’s a very simple plan, but it’s also

                  27:01.463 –> 27:07.745

                  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the only plan you could follow to get that hockey stick growth whilst you’re bootstrapping.

                  27:08.225 –> 27:14.387

                  [SPEAKER_00]: But also, it’s so easy to take over a business, arrogantly thinking you know what is needed.

                  27:14.447 –> 27:19.069

                  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you’re not doing the testing, you’re not actually learning what’s needed to take the next step growth.

                  27:19.569 –> 27:25.131

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And really interesting to hear all his tips and tricks around testing and the things he’s been learning of late and over time.

                  27:25.551 –> 27:27.712

                  [SPEAKER_00]: so very cool to have Ian on the show.

                  27:28.092 –> 27:46.516

                  [SPEAKER_00]: You can get your hands on the notes from this episode including those top tips and the links to what we mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterplan.com or you can use our direct episode short links just put ECMP.info for such the number of this episode into the URL bar and you’ll be redirected straight to the right episode page.

                  27:46.936 –> 27:54.018

                  [SPEAKER_00]: When you get to the website you can also add yourself to our email list so you don’t miss out on any of the other things I share to help you improve your business.

                  27:55.058 –> 27:58.882

                  [SPEAKER_00]: If you liked this episode, then couple of recommendations for you today.

                  27:59.022 –> 28:11.473

                  [SPEAKER_00]: First off, check out Episode five hundred and twenty-one, which is our previous episode with Ian, where we’re chatting about a ninety percent B to B e-commerce revenue jump that Ian has team had achieved.

                  28:11.614 –> 28:14.296

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Super cool episode loads of marketing tips in that one.

                  28:15.097 –> 28:15.737

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Secondly,

                  28:16.598 –> 28:25.504

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Episode five, seven, where I got to chat with Sanya and Janice about building better stronger relationships with your agency.

                  28:26.005 –> 28:34.431

                  [SPEAKER_00]: I’m adding it into this one because to me, it resonates with that silo and culture of testing piece that I was talking to Ian about.

                  28:34.451 –> 28:36.833

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you want more on that specifically,

                  28:37.513 –> 28:46.075

                  [SPEAKER_00]: and building those testing thriving relationships with in particular your agency, but also other marketing agencies, outsource people, et cetera, et cetera.

                  28:46.095 –> 28:49.496

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Then go and have a listen to episode five, five, seven as well.

                  28:50.256 –> 28:51.817

                  [SPEAKER_00]: It’s just a few episodes ago.

                  28:51.837 –> 28:55.778

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And then if you want to catch up with all our

                  28:56.498 –> 28:58.098

                  [SPEAKER_00]: What would you do, episodes?

                  28:58.338 –> 29:00.079

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So the admittedly, this is the first one.

                  29:00.719 –> 29:04.680

                  [SPEAKER_00]: But we have added a few similarly themed episodes to the page already.

                  29:05.120 –> 29:11.982

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you go to the website via ECMP.info, or s-w-w-y-d, what would you do?

                  29:12.462 –> 29:19.343

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Then you will be able to access a page where we’ll be combining all our, what would you do episodes?

                  29:19.943 –> 29:25.925

                  [SPEAKER_00]: And also, as I said, get your hands on a couple, which fit the format, but weren’t technically W-w-y-d’s.

                  29:26.985 –> 29:27.266

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

                  29:27.526 –> 29:29.528

                  [SPEAKER_00]: If that’s not confusing enough, let’s wrap it up.

                  29:29.808 –> 29:35.172

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for tuning in to this and every episode that you do of the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

                  29:35.532 –> 29:45.300

                  [SPEAKER_00]: I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help Ecommerce business owners like you to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including progressing along that path to net zero.

                  29:45.781 –> 29:50.384

                  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

                  29:50.865 –> 29:53.467

                  [SPEAKER_00]: Have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

                  29:56.623 –> 29:59.926

                  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening to the e-commerce Master Plan podcast.

                  30:00.386 –> 30:05.170

                  [SPEAKER_01]: Find out more at e-commercemasterplanned.com slash podcast.

                  31 min
                • eCommerce MasterPlan | 560: Scaling an Amazon-First Brand: Joey’z Journey to $10M with Charles Chakkalo

                  Charles Chakkalo is the Founding partner of Joey’z, an Amazon-first homewares brand. Since 2010, he’s been building a lean, everything-in-house Amazon operation focused on practical, everyday consumer goods. They also now sell across Walmart and eBay and even have a Shopify store too. In total, annual sales are now over $10million with growth at 20% year on year. 

                   

                  In this episode, Charles shares the real behind-the-scenes of scaling on Amazon—covering the wins, the struggles, and the lessons every eCommerce owner can use to grow smarter and faster. 

                   

                  Hit PLAY to hear: 

                   

                  • How Joey’s grew into a $10M Amazon-first brand with 20% YoY growth  
                  • Why Amazon makes life easy—but also traps sellers in dependency 
                  • The pros and cons of keeping warehousing and logistics in-house  
                  • Why retail arbitrage is fading and how private label builds stability 
                  • The hidden role of logistics mastery in beating competitors 
                  • What Charles sees as the next big growth move for Joey’s  

                    •  

                    Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

                    [05:22] “AI Boom Reflects Shifting Focus” 

                    [08:46] “Addicted to Amazon’s Ease” 

                    [12:20] Outsource Advertising and Software 

                    [13:53] DTC Brand Growth Challenges 

                    [17:19] Pivot to Private Label Products 

                    [21:35] “Outsource Ops, In-House Amazon Fulfillment” 

                    [24:32] Listen to Charles’ Top Tips! 

                     

                    Full episode notes here: https://ecmp.info/560  

                    —

                    Download our ebook… https://ecmp.info/ebook 500 Tips to Increase Your Profits

                    Get all the links and resources we mention and join our email list at https://ecmp.info

                    Love the show? Chloe would love your feedback – leave a review here: https://ecmp.info/review or reply to the episode QandA on Spotify.

                    Interested in being a Sponsor? go here: https://ecmp.info/sponsor

                    Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

                    Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

                    WEBVTT

                    00:00.660 –> 00:05.064

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Amazon makes life really easy and it’s really hard to get out of it.

                    00:05.325 –> 00:05.665

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Think of it.

                    00:05.725 –> 00:10.570

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I never have to deal with content generation or demand generation the way that D to C brands do.

                    00:10.770 –> 00:17.416

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, just two, three weeks ago, I was looking at a meta-eds portal and I was like, wait, I have to create a ad creative.

                    00:17.656 –> 00:19.198

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I have to come up with this from the bottom up.

                    00:19.438 –> 00:23.062

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s not just I put in a bed for PPC and the platform takes it from there.

                    00:23.702 –> 00:24.203

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The answer is no.

                    00:26.692 –> 00:29.075

                    [SPEAKER_01]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

                    00:29.696 –> 00:33.701

                    [SPEAKER_01]: Air to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

                    00:34.222 –> 00:42.013

                    [SPEAKER_01]: Cutting through the hinder to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

                    00:45.350 –> 00:47.573

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome, it’s great to have you here.

                    00:47.653 –> 00:51.458

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

                    00:51.498 –> 00:56.164

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And in this episode, our guest is going to be inspiring you about the world of Amazon.

                    00:56.184 –> 00:59.068

                    [SPEAKER_02]: We’ve got someone on the show who’s Amazon first.

                    00:59.168 –> 01:00.590

                    [SPEAKER_02]: I know, it’s kind of like where

                    01:01.110 –> 01:03.731

                    [SPEAKER_02]: jumping over the fence to see if the grass is greener over there.

                    01:03.811 –> 01:16.417

                    [SPEAKER_02]: We’ll be getting into the challenges of being Amazon first, how things have changed, what they’re currently planning on doing to increase their sales, and also, whole load of stuff around logistics and team and efficiency.

                    01:16.797 –> 01:17.678

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Really cool, Gast.

                    01:18.158 –> 01:19.378

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Thoroughly enjoyed chatting with him.

                    01:19.438 –> 01:27.122

                    [SPEAKER_02]: I know you’re going to like this one, so make sure you listen to the end because his top tips are really good too, and you’ll also get my own take on this episode.

                    01:33.069 –> 01:34.969

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And now to introduce our special guest.

                    01:35.450 –> 01:40.331

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Charles Chakalo is the founding partner of Joey’s and Amazon first home was brand.

                    01:40.671 –> 01:48.193

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Since twenty ten he’s been building a lean everything in house, Amazon operation focused on practical everyday consumer goods.

                    01:48.573 –> 01:53.874

                    [SPEAKER_02]: They now also sell across Walmart and eBay and even have a Shopify store in the mix as well.

                    01:54.374 –> 02:00.336

                    [SPEAKER_02]: In total annual sales are now over ten million dollars with growth at twenty percent year on year.

                    02:00.376 –> 02:01.016

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Hello Charles.

                    02:01.476 –> 02:01.616

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Hello.

                    02:02.415 –> 02:06.178

                    [SPEAKER_02]: very cool to have you here and congrats on building such a good business.

                    02:06.578 –> 02:06.938

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

                    02:06.958 –> 02:07.178

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

                    02:07.238 –> 02:07.899

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s a pleasure to be here.

                    02:07.999 –> 02:11.481

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it’s somebody asked me once what my momentum moment was.

                    02:11.821 –> 02:16.525

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And I told them for the first time I saw an additional comma in a bank account.

                    02:17.205 –> 02:21.308

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, that eighth digit was really remarkable to see.

                    02:21.912 –> 02:26.175

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So many people talk about seven digits, but eight digits is a whole other ball game, isn’t it?

                    02:26.235 –> 02:31.739

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I was so disappointed every previous year that I didn’t get the eighth, but hey listen, I still didn’t get the eighth.

                    02:31.779 –> 02:32.819

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m just on track for it.

                    02:32.839 –> 02:34.180

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So God willing, God willing.

                    02:35.361 –> 02:36.502

                    [SPEAKER_02]: We wish you all the best.

                    02:37.102 –> 02:41.125

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So how did you end up in the world of Amazon and Ecommerce?

                    02:41.745 –> 02:44.847

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So it actually goes back to my upbringing and high school.

                    02:45.963 –> 02:48.845

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I, well, let me stop before that in elementary school.

                    02:49.445 –> 02:52.406

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I ask my dad for money.

                    02:52.446 –> 02:56.809

                    [SPEAKER_00]: There’s this thing called money that’s like freedom and I’m like, how do I get more of it?

                    02:56.829 –> 03:01.731

                    [SPEAKER_00]: You know, he points over to my grandpa and then he goes, go and ask him how you get money.

                    03:02.111 –> 03:03.872

                    [SPEAKER_00]: My grandpa tells me, you work.

                    03:04.232 –> 03:06.814

                    [SPEAKER_00]: You show up here Sunday mornings and I was ten years old at the time.

                    03:08.013 –> 03:11.936

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, every Sunday morning, I tend to my plants in my greenhouse.

                    03:12.796 –> 03:13.537

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And I’ll see you there.

                    03:13.797 –> 03:14.858

                    [SPEAKER_00]: You’re getting ten dollars a day.

                    03:15.498 –> 03:18.060

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So from my first job at ten years old, I got ten dollars a day.

                    03:19.181 –> 03:25.185

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I saw my own hundred dollar bill for the first time after ten weeks of working there.

                    03:26.306 –> 03:31.549

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And that was the sort of entrepreneurial immigrant household mindset that I grew up in.

                    03:32.410 –> 03:35.152

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And from that point on, I said, I need

                    03:36.229 –> 03:40.395

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So Grandpa’s greenhouse, I did that for about two, three years.

                    03:41.076 –> 03:44.321

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Got into high school and right before then.

                    03:44.341 –> 03:49.509

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So it’s so to write before high school, while in high school, discovered Amazon.

                    03:50.647 –> 03:55.050

                    [SPEAKER_00]: source stuff on sale and then I said to myself, well, there’s a well, there’s a margin here.

                    03:55.590 –> 03:56.610

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So I did that.

                    03:56.751 –> 04:05.435

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I used my ten free prints in the library to print out shipping labels, shipped them out through my school that had daily UPS pickups conveniently.

                    04:06.016 –> 04:06.996

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The security guard knew me.

                    04:07.036 –> 04:07.897

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The teachers knew me.

                    04:08.037 –> 04:12.259

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Some teachers tried to say it was against the rules, but there was no rule against selling in school online.

                    04:12.319 –> 04:13.140

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It was too new for that.

                    04:13.800 –> 04:14.120

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And then

                    04:15.710 –> 04:16.691

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I was about to go to law school.

                    04:16.811 –> 04:21.475

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I was in litigation, and then my brother, Tammy, on the shoulder one day, who also did the same thing on Amazon.

                    04:22.156 –> 04:23.738

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So do you want to try doing this for real?

                    04:24.398 –> 04:25.279

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And we just never look back.

                    04:25.339 –> 04:31.365

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I said to myself, if I want to go to law school later on, I swear law school doesn’t need me.

                    04:31.405 –> 04:32.126

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’ll still be there.

                    04:32.826 –> 04:36.910

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that’s, and then I never went to law school.

                    04:37.310 –> 04:39.773

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And here I am, and we just built this from the bottom up.

                    04:40.567 –> 04:50.978

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Very cool, and enough’s changed in e-commerce over the last fifteen years, but the amount that Amazon has changed in the last fifteen years is a whole other ballgame, isn’t it?

                    04:51.399 –> 04:52.860

                    [SPEAKER_02]: How do you roll with the punches?

                    04:53.801 –> 04:55.043

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly that, exactly that.

                    04:55.163 –> 04:56.344

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I do, I just roll with it.

                    04:56.845 –> 04:58.386

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I was on a different podcast where

                    04:58.927 –> 05:00.748

                    [SPEAKER_00]: They asked me when I first started selling Amazon.

                    05:00.948 –> 05:02.450

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m, I’m twenty nine years old.

                    05:02.510 –> 05:03.750

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I started selling fifteen years ago.

                    05:04.311 –> 05:05.372

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So I was fourteen.

                    05:05.532 –> 05:08.214

                    [SPEAKER_00]: They go, was it when there was the sell on Amazon button?

                    05:08.254 –> 05:09.595

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m like, oh my God.

                    05:09.675 –> 05:10.956

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I forgot about that.

                    05:11.496 –> 05:14.818

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So the, what he was referring to is under every Amazon listing.

                    05:14.838 –> 05:19.982

                    [SPEAKER_00]: There was actually a sell on Amazon button where you can say, I want to sell this product that I’m looking at.

                    05:20.342 –> 05:21.884

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And that’s how he used to list product.

                    05:22.464 –> 05:27.568

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, the, the, it seems like, mountains and mountains of memory data.

                    05:28.268 –> 05:29.929

                    [SPEAKER_00]: was just unraveled when he said that.

                    05:29.989 –> 05:32.010

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So that was something else.

                    05:32.090 –> 05:39.115

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But in terms of keeping up with the times, I am neurotic about keeping up with the times.

                    05:39.515 –> 05:45.098

                    [SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to business or otherwise, things that are going on in our world, current events, business, anything.

                    05:45.118 –> 05:45.879

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I just keep up.

                    05:45.979 –> 05:47.160

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I just have to keep up with it.

                    05:47.200 –> 05:48.821

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And I also like for seeing trends.

                    05:49.361 –> 05:53.924

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Like this whole AI boom that happened with the release of CHI GPT a couple of years ago to the general public.

                    05:54.739 –> 06:02.244

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, people are now, all it is is the extension of a pattern that we saw since, twenty ten, shortening of attention spent.

                    06:02.824 –> 06:14.231

                    [SPEAKER_00]: We no longer have the attention spent now to sit and through Google results, reputable search results, come up with creative copy and funnels and processes.

                    06:15.252 –> 06:17.474

                    [SPEAKER_00]: That’s all the AI revolution is.

                    06:17.675 –> 06:21.638

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s the acceleration of a pattern of short and detention spends.

                    06:21.678 –> 06:24.721

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I use AI in each and every day.

                    06:24.741 –> 06:31.488

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I don’t think it’s good or bad, but it’s definitely a trend that I see and I just keep up with.

                    06:33.010 –> 06:38.855

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Not a mistake that Amazon is trying to be more sensitive to brands.

                    06:39.576 –> 06:46.242

                    [SPEAKER_00]: because of the high pressure being put on it by the FTC, Democratic, even Republican administrations.

                    06:46.282 –> 06:47.603

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it’s all of it.

                    06:47.643 –> 06:50.706

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s just, I just keep up with it because number one, I like it.

                    06:50.746 –> 06:53.628

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Number two, that’s, you know, information is power.

                    06:54.069 –> 06:54.669

                    [SPEAKER_02]: You just have to do.

                    06:54.689 –> 06:55.290

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Don’t use.

                    06:55.310 –> 06:57.572

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So let’s explain a bit more about the business itself.

                    06:57.612 –> 07:01.996

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So you’re based in the state, you purely selling to the states, but you sell it overseas as well.

                    07:02.422 –> 07:05.465

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So I sell overseas to the agents that are willing to deal with that.

                    07:05.705 –> 07:10.569

                    [SPEAKER_00]: There’s something on Amazon called the North American Remote fulfillment program.

                    07:11.290 –> 07:15.994

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It takes my US inventory, lists it on Canada, Mexico, and Brazil.

                    07:16.555 –> 07:16.975

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Hands off.

                    07:17.275 –> 07:23.741

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I don’t have to worry about any of the back end fulfillment, customs, tariffs, nothing like that.

                    07:24.642 –> 07:25.122

                    [SPEAKER_00]: That I do.

                    07:25.743 –> 07:29.684

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I did experiment with selling cross-border directly on the Canadian marketplace.

                    07:30.425 –> 07:32.886

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The bureaucracy ended up being way too much.

                    07:33.486 –> 07:37.388

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And there was no predictability as far as calculating my profit margins.

                    07:37.928 –> 07:39.809

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So I backed out of that.

                    07:40.389 –> 07:47.953

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And then if somebody in a different country wants to purchase my product, I have no issue selling to them, but it comes with

                    07:51.135 –> 08:00.581

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Setting up an international marketplace or an international market separate from the US one seems to be way too cumbersome and frankly, I don’t see enough opportunity in it.

                    08:00.682 –> 08:05.745

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I could be convincing myself with something that doesn’t exist, but that’s where I fell out.

                    08:06.344 –> 08:09.026

                    [SPEAKER_02]: kind of duplicates all the workload, doesn’t it when you do that?

                    08:09.426 –> 08:17.311

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Duplicating complicates, especially when I have to deal with VATs and… Yeah, it’s all about that.

                    08:17.751 –> 08:22.955

                    [SPEAKER_02]: It’s interesting how Amazon has made that bit of it easy.

                    08:23.375 –> 08:31.360

                    [SPEAKER_02]: You can do the North America thing, the US, and they worry about where the stock is, all the admin, all the fees, the tariffs, that everything just gets dealt with by them.

                    08:31.700 –> 08:38.692

                    [SPEAKER_02]: They run a very similar thing in the Europe that a lot of European sellers use to send stock across the whole of Europe.

                    08:38.732 –> 08:44.962

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And it’s just kind of one of those ways in which I think Amazon kind of makes things super easy for you.

                    08:45.002 –> 08:46.044

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So you just stay there.

                    08:46.557 –> 08:49.858

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, they do, and you know, it’s funny.

                    08:49.878 –> 08:55.439

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I was at a conference once, and I said, I was at a conference once where there was mostly D to C friends.

                    08:56.279 –> 08:58.799

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And I said that I’m a recovering addict.

                    08:58.979 –> 09:02.140

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The reason why I said that is because Amazon makes that easy for you.

                    09:02.980 –> 09:07.301

                    [SPEAKER_00]: They went into this whole, you know, speel of, yeah, they struggled with addiction too.

                    09:07.361 –> 09:08.281

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s family member, whatever it is.

                    09:08.321 –> 09:09.401

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I go, no, no, no, no, no.

                    09:10.021 –> 09:12.521

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Amazon makes life really easy.

                    09:12.561 –> 09:14.842

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And it’s really hard to get out of it.

                    09:15.751 –> 09:19.826

                    [SPEAKER_00]: That’s, you know, the door is really easy when it comes to it because think of it.

                    09:19.886 –> 09:20.770

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I never have to deal with it.

                    09:21.786 –> 09:26.410

                    [SPEAKER_00]: content generation or demand generation the way the way that D to C brands do.

                    09:26.630 –> 09:33.435

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, just two, three weeks ago, I was looking at a meta-eds portal and I was like, wait, I have to create a creative.

                    09:34.015 –> 09:35.557

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I have to come up with this from the bottom up.

                    09:36.077 –> 09:39.700

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s not just I put in a bid for PPC and the platform takes it from there.

                    09:40.320 –> 09:40.921

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The answer is no.

                    09:41.401 –> 09:45.344

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And Amazon never prepared me for that, never prepared me for email marketing.

                    09:46.005 –> 09:47.746

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Those are muscles that I can say.

                    09:47.766 –> 09:50.128

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’ve been in the business for fifteen years, but I’ve never exercised.

                    09:50.851 –> 09:55.754

                    [SPEAKER_02]: If you say about going to a mainly D to C conference, I think if you go to a mainly market place, it’s conference.

                    09:56.054 –> 10:03.338

                    [SPEAKER_02]: You will find a lot of people who are on Amazon and who are going, yeah, yeah, next year we’re going to build our Shopify store.

                    10:03.839 –> 10:08.761

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Next year we’re going to move on to eBay or Walmart or something next year we’re going to do this.

                    10:09.102 –> 10:13.484

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And then you see them at the same conference, twelve months later, it’s like, you’re next year we’re going to do this.

                    10:13.564 –> 10:14.505

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I never got around.

                    10:15.005 –> 10:22.014

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because it is such a different business model, you know, it’s such a different skill set and such a different range of things.

                    10:22.034 –> 10:27.080

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So you must have found this as you diversified on to Walmart, eBay, and having your own store.

                    10:27.941 –> 10:31.486

                    [SPEAKER_02]: That also adds a lot of complexity the same as going international.

                    10:31.506 –> 10:32.908

                    [SPEAKER_02]: That’s a whole load of new things to learn.

                    10:33.720 –> 10:39.763

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they, I mean, from platform to platform, it’s pretty similar because everybody’s just trying to copy Amazon.

                    10:39.823 –> 10:50.547

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s just, they’re playing insanely skewed games have catch up and I’m specifically talking about Walmart, Walmart is dying to be the next Amazon, but it’s funny.

                    10:50.587 –> 10:53.428

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s Amazon ten years ago, but

                    10:54.789 –> 11:05.895

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, as far as trying to share that knowledge in conferences, you find very few people willing to actually implement the changes they say they will to get all families on or to start some D to see operation.

                    11:07.836 –> 11:10.177

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, myself, I’m not immune to that.

                    11:10.537 –> 11:16.720

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m trying to get this D to see operation off the ground for a very long time, but it’s just not the structure of my business.

                    11:16.760 –> 11:17.981

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s not how I built it so far.

                    11:18.581 –> 11:25.705

                    [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of it was built on the retail arbitrage model and I’m trying to not shift away from it but expand it.

                    11:26.525 –> 11:29.026

                    [SPEAKER_02]: We may get into that later first off though.

                    11:29.166 –> 11:37.191

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Your team, when you apply to be on the podcast and it was very clear from your application that you’re very proud of the fact you’re doing everything in-house.

                    11:37.231 –> 11:39.192

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So what does your team look like?

                    11:39.532 –> 11:42.333

                    [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, how many of you are there and what are you, what are you doing?

                    11:42.433 –> 11:45.695

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And then let’s get into why you’re doing everything in-house.

                    11:46.172 –> 11:48.114

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So it’s a family business.

                    11:49.336 –> 11:50.517

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m partners with my two brothers.

                    11:50.597 –> 11:51.859

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Makes me very interesting dinner talk.

                    11:52.720 –> 11:55.503

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And we have two locations across New York.

                    11:56.084 –> 12:00.490

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Both operators warehouse is one of them has an administrative office wing to it.

                    12:01.103 –> 12:04.744

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But when I say administrative office, it just means a place for me and my brothers to do admin stuff.

                    12:05.384 –> 12:13.865

                    [SPEAKER_00]: We have one VA in the Philippines that really functions as my executive assistant because I just take care of most of the admin.

                    12:14.726 –> 12:18.106

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The warehouse workers are about nine per location.

                    12:18.886 –> 12:20.767

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And we take care of that as well.

                    12:20.827 –> 12:27.188

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So we’re housing, labor, HR, logistics, freight, item labeling,

                    12:27.788 –> 12:30.170

                    [SPEAKER_00]: packaging, all us, all in house.

                    12:30.350 –> 12:34.433

                    [SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to ads, we outsource most of it.

                    12:35.574 –> 12:42.038

                    [SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to listing building, we outsource some of it, software, repricing software.

                    12:42.159 –> 12:43.439

                    [SPEAKER_00]: We outsource that entirely.

                    12:44.240 –> 12:51.525

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I like to think we outsource the stuff that could be either a automated, and we just pay for software solutions for it, or b.

                    12:52.546 –> 12:53.867

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody sitting down and doing heads.

                    12:53.907 –> 12:55.307

                    [SPEAKER_00]: We actually tried doing that in-house.

                    12:55.988 –> 13:06.853

                    [SPEAKER_00]: We ended up spending one of us ended up spending twenty of our hours doing it as opposed to outsourcing it to an agency that automated it and got the same return on investment.

                    13:07.314 –> 13:11.055

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So we just said yet we’re not spending twenty hours of our week doing this.

                    13:11.816 –> 13:13.177

                    [SPEAKER_00]: That’s generally our operation.

                    13:13.237 –> 13:16.438

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, hey, you’re looking at the forklift operator of the warehouse right now.

                    13:18.199 –> 13:40.292

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And the way you talk through that, there’s a real kind of hard-nosed business numbers method behind making those decisions, which I think is something which comes more easily to a business that is Amazon first than a business that is own website first, because on Amazon it’s such a ones and zeros numbers game.

                    13:40.713 –> 13:44.655

                    [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the brand, the story, the values are so much less important.

                    13:45.035 –> 13:46.916

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think that’s one of the reasons why

                    13:48.057 –> 13:53.278

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Amazon’s worked so well for you, or do you think Amazon shaped you into that method of decision making?

                    13:53.819 –> 13:55.939

                    [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I think they shaped us into this for sure.

                    13:56.559 –> 14:08.162

                    [SPEAKER_00]: If you look at the sheer volume of pallets and cartons and pieces that we’re looking at, a D to C brand can, I mean, doesn’t start selling pallets of merchandise.

                    14:08.483 –> 14:09.803

                    [SPEAKER_00]: A D to C brand starts with

                    14:10.956 –> 14:11.576

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Holly bags.

                    14:12.277 –> 14:23.085

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Like I alluded to earlier, they have to deal with demand generation for them to get to a spot where they’re sending truckloads of merchandise and dealing with less than truckload, freight counts, palli-classes.

                    14:23.525 –> 14:27.128

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Those are very volume-heavy things.

                    14:27.188 –> 14:34.073

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And for a brand to get there is eons of time because I deal with selling other brands.

                    14:35.110 –> 14:39.352

                    [SPEAKER_00]: That’s what allows me to deal with that kind of logistical element of my business.

                    14:39.732 –> 14:47.875

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Now, focusing on the hard nose kind of analysis that I’ve been doing, it’s not a numbers thing as much as it is a philosophy thing.

                    14:48.775 –> 14:52.596

                    [SPEAKER_00]: There’s only a twenty four hours in each and every one of our days.

                    14:52.716 –> 14:58.459

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And the more time we spend on a certain product, the more expert it makes is the more learned it makes us in a certain field.

                    14:59.319 –> 15:01.900

                    [SPEAKER_00]: You can either go shallow into a bunch of things or deep into one.

                    15:02.724 –> 15:05.926

                    [SPEAKER_00]: When I know, I’m not going to go deep into, like I said, ads.

                    15:07.166 –> 15:13.609

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I can outsource that and when they’re giving me the same, sometimes better return on investment, I’m going to outsource it.

                    15:13.649 –> 15:20.032

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And no, I didn’t calculate it numbers in sense, but I did at least make that kind of philosophical determination.

                    15:20.052 –> 15:21.313

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And that’s where I’m at for that.

                    15:22.138 –> 15:28.240

                    [SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned about how, you know, you’ve built the business selling other people’s products, other brands product.

                    15:29.180 –> 15:33.202

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Is that still as viable on Amazon now, is it used to be?

                    15:33.582 –> 15:34.482

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Or is it changing?

                    15:34.562 –> 15:36.943

                    [SPEAKER_00]: No, it’s a dwindle.

                    15:37.023 –> 15:38.844

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn’t say doing that.

                    15:39.564 –> 15:44.206

                    [SPEAKER_00]: If you go back six, seven, eight years, you’ll find people saying that it’s hard to do.

                    15:44.306 –> 15:44.866

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Don’t do it.

                    15:45.646 –> 15:47.107

                    [SPEAKER_00]: You have to start your own brand.

                    15:47.147 –> 15:48.627

                    [SPEAKER_00]: You have to get a mold in China.

                    15:48.667 –> 15:50.568

                    [SPEAKER_00]: You have to import it here and so on and so on.

                    15:51.468 –> 15:53.009

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s only been getting harder.

                    15:53.049 –> 15:53.650

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’ll tell you that.

                    15:54.250 –> 16:05.418

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Because we, because we’ve been doing it so long, we are sort of really built for a lot of resistance and swaying in the wind.

                    16:06.699 –> 16:08.981

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But even the past six months, we got hurt bad.

                    16:10.643 –> 16:12.464

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And we’re still making it.

                    16:12.564 –> 16:14.265

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it’s still great.

                    16:14.325 –> 16:15.125

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s still a great model.

                    16:15.165 –> 16:16.546

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s working for us keeping these lights on.

                    16:17.306 –> 16:28.931

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But it’s really getting harder because I mean, it’s just a side of the times it how much longer can even Nike just threw up the red, the white flag and said, all right, we have to be on Amazon.

                    16:29.491 –> 16:35.253

                    [SPEAKER_00]: All of these brands that are just not on Amazon are not taking direct control of their supply chain are waking up.

                    16:35.613 –> 16:39.214

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, over the past six years, it’s going to get more complicated if they’re taking direct control.

                    16:39.914 –> 16:56.980

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Where they realize that they need us is they’re not accustomed to operating something that has restock limits, something that has to have more efficient building of a certain palette to pack a truck in a certain way so that you’re cost per transportation of per unit

                    16:57.680 –> 16:58.880

                    [SPEAKER_00]: is the lowest ticket possibly be.

                    16:59.200 –> 16:59.921

                    [SPEAKER_00]: They’re not built for that.

                    17:00.341 –> 17:04.342

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Brands are big bureaucratic structures that are just focused on one thing and it’s brand awareness.

                    17:04.822 –> 17:09.883

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Let us do the selling logistics and legwork, but usually that’s the cycle I’m seeing.

                    17:11.083 –> 17:12.383

                    [SPEAKER_02]: How are you combating that?

                    17:12.423 –> 17:15.544

                    [SPEAKER_02]: If you don’t want me asking you how are you going to create your own brands?

                    17:15.704 –> 17:19.545

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Are you finding partners who get that they’re not set up to do this well?

                    17:20.145 –> 17:28.270

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So like I said, it’s not a, it’s a lot less, I should say, of a dollars in the sense kind of thing and more of a philosophical.

                    17:28.330 –> 17:39.458

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So back in twenty twenty, COVID ish time, we said, for the most amount of control and stability, we’d need a private label brand.

                    17:39.918 –> 17:45.320

                    [SPEAKER_00]: For sure, that’s a lot better of a predictor of our future than retail arbitrage.

                    17:45.360 –> 17:52.162

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Because retail arbitrage, you know, some customer can get a wrong item and Amazon terminate your multimillion dollar account without a blink of an eye.

                    17:52.722 –> 17:55.183

                    [SPEAKER_00]: There’s a common saying that they shoot first aim later.

                    17:55.903 –> 18:00.985

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But when it comes to private label, we said, all right, we’ll start investing in that.

                    18:01.065 –> 18:01.965

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And that was in twenty twenty.

                    18:02.626 –> 18:05.847

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Some years it made up majority of our sales in gross revenue.

                    18:06.852 –> 18:18.334

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And until now, I mean, we’ve never really told one coherent brand story or invested in a unique value proposition or interrupted a certain market or a certain niche.

                    18:19.220 –> 18:20.600

                    [SPEAKER_00]: up until now.

                    18:21.321 –> 18:25.342

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Before I got on this call, I spoke to a factory in China.

                    18:25.542 –> 18:28.983

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Again, a factory is what we’ve been dealing with for five years at this point.

                    18:29.883 –> 18:34.204

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Trying to do all this stuff that were quote unquote supposed to be doing.

                    18:34.844 –> 18:40.245

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The interrupting of a certain market, unique value proposition and so on and so on and so on.

                    18:40.926 –> 18:43.606

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So that’s where we find ourselves now.

                    18:43.666 –> 18:45.707

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So we had one foot in one foot out.

                    18:46.587 –> 18:49.751

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Now I’m going to try to do this the quote unquote right way.

                    18:49.791 –> 19:01.845

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The reason why I say quote unquote is just because every thinker or guru in the e-commerce pay say you’re supposed to do this and I mean frankly we’ve been fine without it so I’m going to try it see if there’s any merit to their argument and go from there.

                    19:02.826 –> 19:05.969

                    [SPEAKER_02]: I wish you luck and I’d love to find out if it does work or not.

                    19:07.050 –> 19:07.351

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

                    19:07.706 –> 19:10.048

                    [SPEAKER_02]: but good to hear that the private label stuff’s coming on.

                    19:10.108 –> 19:17.632

                    [SPEAKER_02]: You’ve deleted a few times to the logistics challenges of dealing with Amazon rather than sending to individuals.

                    19:18.473 –> 19:23.756

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, Amazon are dictating what arrives at their warehouse rather than you getting to do it.

                    19:23.776 –> 19:33.963

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So how do you, I guess if you’ve got any kind of ways you’ve gone about making the most of that and avoiding some of the pitfalls, any advice to those listening who are struggling with it?

                    19:34.563 –> 19:43.050

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So there are two, so like I alluded to in the beginning as well, I see patterns and because of it, let’s say our shortening attempt has been also shortening of patience.

                    19:43.170 –> 19:57.161

                    [SPEAKER_00]: There’s Amazon Prime where everything, where if something takes three to five business days, at least here in the States, to arrive to a customer, that’s considered generations and it can impact customer satisfaction.

                    19:58.040 –> 20:04.867

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So when Amazon leverage is there, their network for prime delivery, you sort of have to succumb to that.

                    20:05.688 –> 20:15.998

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And with them now releasing by with prime, directly integrating with TikTok shop and Pinterest and your own Shopify sites or your own D to C sites, not even just Shopify.

                    20:16.598 –> 20:20.482

                    [SPEAKER_00]: You feel like you’re doing your business at this credit if you don’t give into the Amazon Prime system.

                    20:20.662 –> 20:20.762

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Now,

                    20:21.563 –> 20:24.528

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The two levers we have to pull is number one.

                    20:24.969 –> 20:27.893

                    [SPEAKER_00]: My brother and partner knows their logistics system better than them.

                    20:28.555 –> 20:34.344

                    [SPEAKER_00]: He knows exactly which time-to-book shipments which carriers to use to get the best rates

                    20:35.270 –> 20:40.412

                    [SPEAKER_00]: how to switch a certain warehouse or fulfillment center to receive our merchandise, he is completely dedicated to that.

                    20:40.952 –> 20:43.933

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So that’s one huge advantage I have in my partnership.

                    20:44.573 –> 20:46.934

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The second is we own our facilities.

                    20:47.114 –> 20:52.576

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So we’re not using a three PL that’s overcharging us for storage, prep, packing, labor,

                    20:53.336 –> 20:55.558

                    [SPEAKER_00]: We invested in the two real estate locations.

                    20:55.598 –> 20:58.600

                    [SPEAKER_00]: We have both as real estate investments and as operations.

                    20:59.301 –> 21:06.627

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, I’ve heard horror stories of people renting you holes to go to a three PL, but they’ve hired to just take their stuff out.

                    21:06.687 –> 21:09.149

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And because somebody wouldn’t answer their email.

                    21:09.369 –> 21:10.230

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean,

                    21:11.351 –> 21:12.752

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s a nightmare that I would never have.

                    21:13.092 –> 21:19.737

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it comes along with hiring staff dealing with a whole bunch of other headaches that are probably other D to C brands don’t want to deal with.

                    21:20.297 –> 21:22.299

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But that control is something that I like.

                    21:22.579 –> 21:26.421

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So when it comes to shipping on their terms, it’s just another dance.

                    21:26.902 –> 21:31.985

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But my two levers of advantage are number one, my partner who’s completely invested of logistics that Amazon.

                    21:32.526 –> 21:34.547

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And the second is owning our operation.

                    21:35.793 –> 21:54.878

                    [SPEAKER_02]: It does strike me as, like, I’m generally speaking a fan of outsourcing ops and, you know, pickback for film and all that kind of stuff because when you’re running a own website business, it becomes a distraction, you know, if you’re doing that, which you can outsource and you can outsource it well when it’s single items.

                    21:55.658 –> 22:11.283

                    [SPEAKER_02]: But when your business is all about getting the product into Amazon, which is a very complicated end point, you know, correct timing, correct thing, you know, all that complexity they give you, why would you then add a point of weakness on the front end?

                    22:11.303 –> 22:16.745

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Because there aren’t many fulfillment houses, three PLs that specialize in getting stuff into Amazon.

                    22:16.765 –> 22:18.346

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And it is a whole different organ.

                    22:18.366 –> 22:21.387

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So I totally get why you keep that in house.

                    22:21.407 –> 22:24.248

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And obviously the real estate investment is a nice angle.

                    22:25.165 –> 22:29.428

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it’s very capital intensive here.

                    22:29.528 –> 22:37.232

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s all like capital could have gone into a whole bunch of other things, but it ended up going to the real estate that was just a business decision remade.

                    22:38.292 –> 22:42.495

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And do you see your future as content?

                    22:42.575 –> 22:44.596

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And I actually know that, let me not lead you.

                    22:44.956 –> 22:50.799

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Let me ask, what do you think in the next few years is going to be the key thing for you guys going forward?

                    22:51.933 –> 22:58.977

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I for sure think that this private label, what I’m quote unquote supposed to do is going to take the lead.

                    22:59.797 –> 23:03.759

                    [SPEAKER_00]: If done right, if done right, we definitely not the logistic part down.

                    23:03.779 –> 23:04.360

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’ll tell you that.

                    23:04.800 –> 23:19.668

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But the whole telling a brand story and appealing to people’s emotions and calling up with meta-eds that convert and all of that, I think, is the way of the future because, like I said, it gives us the most control and stability.

                    23:20.779 –> 23:32.709

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But something I’ve been trying to do is getting our D to C side off the ground and I realize I think I was putting the carpet for the horse there because I did nail down the unique value proposition on the brands the very first.

                    23:33.310 –> 23:36.092

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I think that I have to to get that D to C side off the ground.

                    23:36.902 –> 23:44.828

                    [SPEAKER_02]: It is so often the case when you’re, I certainly find, if something’s just not coming together, it’s usually because I’ve missed the first step.

                    23:45.388 –> 23:53.734

                    [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like you get that kind of white page of nightmare and you get, I don’t know what, I don’t know how to, and you try it and you try to build it and you realize you missed a critical step.

                    23:53.754 –> 23:59.038

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it could, it could well be, maybe once you’ve nailed that brand piece, then you’ll be, you’ll be away.

                    23:59.218 –> 23:59.898

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m open so.

                    24:00.739 –> 24:03.901

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And listen, I’m not looking, I’m not looking to shrink my Amazon pie.

                    24:04.241 –> 24:05.242

                    [SPEAKER_00]: My Amazon slice of the pie.

                    24:05.282 –> 24:06.383

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m looking to just grow that pie.

                    24:08.212 –> 24:12.955

                    [SPEAKER_01]: Ecommerce most Atlanta is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the Ecommerce sector.

                    24:13.095 –> 24:14.496

                    [SPEAKER_01]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

                    24:25.910 –> 24:32.393

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I love this section because because me and our listeners some really quick ideas for taking our business to the next level, Charles, are you ready for the top tips?

                    24:32.894 –> 24:33.294

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Let’s do it.

                    24:33.694 –> 24:34.795

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the book top tip.

                    24:34.895 –> 24:41.198

                    [SPEAKER_02]: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

                    24:42.307 –> 24:44.310

                    [SPEAKER_00]: If we’re talking business book, I say, hands down.

                    24:44.670 –> 24:46.533

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s the algebra of wealth by Scott Galloway.

                    24:47.254 –> 24:48.356

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Scott Galloway is an L.U.

                    24:48.376 –> 24:51.139

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Stern professor, very successful businessman.

                    24:51.440 –> 24:54.264

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Surreal entrepreneur has great content.

                    24:54.284 –> 24:55.285

                    [SPEAKER_00]: He puts out regularly.

                    24:56.066 –> 24:56.487

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And he

                    24:57.408 –> 25:26.615

                    [SPEAKER_00]: is just he’s so real when it comes to the data point he gives and it’s just nobody can be the index funds Warren Buffett has a famous bet that plenty of firms got priced out of in the first few years that take your money invested in an index fund don’t look at it and he goes into the science of it I mean sure something’s might have changed now with with crypto and and some private equity firms but nothing is proven better than than his advice I mean

                    25:27.775 –> 25:29.836

                    [SPEAKER_00]: He gives you advice on how to build your wealth.

                    25:30.736 –> 25:41.699

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Primarily if you’re young under under thirty or so, but also if you’re above that, he shows you how you can shift your experience.

                    25:41.719 –> 25:47.260

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So he goes from either learn, gain the experience, and then if you’re in on the older side, thirty plus,

                    25:47.964 –> 25:51.766

                    [SPEAKER_00]: He goes, you can use that experience in a certain way.

                    25:52.286 –> 25:54.328

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And when I say work hard, work hard.

                    25:55.228 –> 25:58.050

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And from there, he lays out the algebra of wealth.

                    25:58.750 –> 25:59.150

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Very cool.

                    25:59.170 –> 26:01.592

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Now you said, if I was going to do a business book.

                    26:01.632 –> 26:04.133

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So is there another book you’ve got thinking in your head?

                    26:04.673 –> 26:07.934

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, for sure, my favorite book of all time is talk by Michael Sporkanish.

                    26:08.554 –> 26:10.294

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s a political thriller, completely fiction.

                    26:11.055 –> 26:15.256

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And I usually like to beat my chest that I’m a hard worker.

                    26:15.716 –> 26:24.738

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But I remember taking off one day in the first three or four, maybe even five years of starting this business, because I started that book and I needed to finish it.

                    26:25.178 –> 26:29.759

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So I took one day off in the very start-up days to finish this book.

                    26:30.059 –> 26:32.280

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I remember I sat on my phone, poaching up, burned in the sun.

                    26:32.420 –> 26:32.900

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I remember that.

                    26:33.766 –> 26:37.190

                    [SPEAKER_02]: That is one hell of a hell of a fiction book recommendation.

                    26:37.210 –> 26:41.595

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So I will be buying that straight after this because that’s something I need to read.

                    26:41.615 –> 26:47.842

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either probably above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves?

                    26:49.068 –> 26:52.510

                    [SPEAKER_00]: funneling people to your website for customer support.

                    26:52.831 –> 27:01.456

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So when you have an issue with your product, people can go, file a return, people can go, if you’re selling on a marketplace, straight to the marketplace for them to intervene.

                    27:02.137 –> 27:18.028

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But if you funnel customers to your website where you control the narrative and you control whether they file for a return, whether you give them a return this refund or whether you can generate another sale, maybe within affiliate code, so it lessons the below on your margins.

                    27:18.856 –> 27:28.302

                    [SPEAKER_00]: You can turn probably very upset customer into a customer that got either free money or less into the blow on your margins.

                    27:28.702 –> 27:30.624

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So that’s a very underrated marketing flow.

                    27:30.664 –> 27:35.767

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, that’s nothing like a top of funnel type hack, but I see that as a huge value rate.

                    27:36.468 –> 27:41.135

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So many people forget the bottom of the funnel and there is, there is so much cool stuff you can do.

                    27:41.235 –> 27:42.016

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So I love that one.

                    27:42.056 –> 27:42.517

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

                    27:42.537 –> 27:52.452

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Tooltop tip, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plug in a phone app or just a way of working, is there a cool little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day?

                    27:53.123 –> 27:56.386

                    [SPEAKER_00]: From day to day, we, so we collaborate using HubStep.

                    27:56.586 –> 28:03.353

                    [SPEAKER_00]: HubStep is something that allows us to collaborate on projects and make sure that we’re in sync up to date.

                    28:04.194 –> 28:12.242

                    [SPEAKER_00]: For any of those operators out there, it also, let’s say, for my VA and the Philippines, it takes snapshots of their screen to make sure that I’m not being defeated at a time.

                    28:12.462 –> 28:14.464

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So for those of you out there that I’d appreciate that.

                    28:15.386 –> 28:26.217

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And primarily, if you’re in the Amazon space, I would say you can’t live without either a helium-tender or a journal scout, or if you’re using repricing feed visor is the way to go.

                    28:26.578 –> 28:27.939

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely all great tools.

                    28:28.640 –> 28:28.960

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Nice.

                    28:29.000 –> 28:29.361

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Love that.

                    28:29.381 –> 28:30.302

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

                    28:30.402 –> 28:31.543

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Carbon top tip.

                    28:31.643 –> 28:35.227

                    [SPEAKER_02]: What’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

                    28:35.950 –> 28:37.971

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The best way is packing efficiency.

                    28:38.111 –> 28:42.995

                    [SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to packing a carton, a poly bag, all the way up to a pallet and a truckload.

                    28:43.615 –> 28:47.557

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we ship out full truckloads of merchandise and the amount of space we see.

                    28:47.938 –> 28:49.399

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So simple value it.

                    28:50.199 –> 28:53.861

                    [SPEAKER_00]: The amount of space on top of a standard stacked pallet is seventy two inches.

                    28:54.902 –> 28:57.424

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But a double stacked pallet can go up to ninety six inches.

                    28:58.405 –> 29:01.126

                    [SPEAKER_00]: a trailer height is a hundred and ten inches.

                    29:01.967 –> 29:06.129

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Why would I ever ship a single stacked pallet?

                    29:06.929 –> 29:12.552

                    [SPEAKER_00]: There’s a bunch of space being burned in diesel to get to their end destination.

                    29:13.252 –> 29:16.534

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Just fill up as much as you can and it’s a pretty simple fix.

                    29:16.594 –> 29:18.334

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Just you’re shipping double the merchandise.

                    29:18.634 –> 29:22.136

                    [SPEAKER_00]: You’re listening the cost of transportation per unit.

                    29:22.776 –> 29:25.518

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It helps your margins and helps the environment.

                    29:25.538 –> 29:25.998

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Why the hell not?

                    29:27.155 –> 29:28.337

                    [SPEAKER_02]: is the enemy, isn’t it?

                    29:28.937 –> 29:29.978

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is.

                    29:30.279 –> 29:30.639

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is.

                    29:30.699 –> 29:36.284

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And for somebody who, I mean, plastic bins were a big part of our business for a while.

                    29:37.806 –> 29:38.467

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So much air.

                    29:39.187 –> 29:39.688

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So much air.

                    29:39.728 –> 29:40.549

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m paying the ship air.

                    29:40.629 –> 29:41.389

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It’s crazy.

                    29:41.810 –> 29:44.152

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, we did a fix on that.

                    29:44.993 –> 29:45.453

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Very cool.

                    29:45.534 –> 29:50.979

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Charles, before we say goodbye, could you please let listeners know where they can find you and your business on the web and social media?

                    29:51.541 –> 29:54.702

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So a few months ago, I said to myself, you know, I’m pissed off.

                    29:55.142 –> 30:02.603

                    [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many agency owners that run newsletters and only give back value to get you on a discovery call or retainer.

                    30:03.303 –> 30:05.444

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So I said to myself, you know, I’m not going to do that.

                    30:05.904 –> 30:09.004

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m going to put content out there as just a seller.

                    30:09.124 –> 30:15.246

                    [SPEAKER_00]: So I started just a seller newsletter where I write really what it’s like in my day-to-day life as a business operator.

                    30:15.386 –> 30:16.106

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I have no agency.

                    30:16.806 –> 30:18.466

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I don’t decide to upsell you on thing.

                    30:18.727 –> 30:21.547

                    [SPEAKER_00]: There are affiliate links, but that’s really it.

                    30:21.647 –> 30:25.088

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I just take a time out to say what it’s like as a business operator.

                    30:25.128 –> 30:26.169

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, I’m Amazon first.

                    30:26.249 –> 30:29.549

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I’m also in the D to C space primarily Amazon though.

                    30:30.050 –> 30:32.430

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And I like to report on it all.

                    30:32.650 –> 30:34.991

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I go to over twenty or thirty conferences a year.

                    30:35.631 –> 30:38.712

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I do some speaking and presentations at some of them just as a result.

                    30:39.592 –> 30:43.174

                    [SPEAKER_00]: And the content I put out is just from that angle.

                    30:43.474 –> 30:48.216

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I am just a seller and this is what it’s like to do any sort of operation from D to C to Amazon.

                    30:49.136 –> 30:50.737

                    [SPEAKER_02]: No, it’s very cool everyone.

                    30:50.757 –> 31:00.901

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So if you want Charles to take on everything that’s going on in Amazon and the industry at the moment head to just a seller newsletter dot com where you can get yourself signed up for that.

                    31:01.121 –> 31:04.343

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And presumably if they want to get in contact with you, they can do that via that site as well.

                    31:04.984 –> 31:05.625

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, right there.

                    31:06.265 –> 31:06.986

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I look at every reply.

                    31:07.006 –> 31:09.969

                    [SPEAKER_00]: It comes straight to me, not a generic inbox or anything.

                    31:10.449 –> 31:11.570

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I read everything that comes my way.

                    31:11.970 –> 31:15.534

                    [SPEAKER_00]: I don’t respond to everything I was on, because I’d be upsold on too many things.

                    31:15.594 –> 31:18.837

                    [SPEAKER_00]: But that is where you get that from.

                    31:19.457 –> 31:22.260

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Very cool, which I’ll thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

                    31:22.320 –> 31:27.024

                    [SPEAKER_02]: It’s been great and fascinating hearing your Amazon and other things journey.

                    31:27.044 –> 31:28.145

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So thanks so much for being here.

                    31:28.726 –> 31:29.186

                    [SPEAKER_00]: My pleasure.

                    31:29.226 –> 31:29.767

                    [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me.

                    31:35.565 –> 31:56.522

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wasn’t it fascinating to jump to the other side of the fence and find out what’s going on for someone who’s so has been so Amazon focused for the last fifteen years, but now, now about to, I guess, enter our world and get worried about brand and all those things, loads of cool pieces of advice in there around the logistics and obviously around Amazon and other elements.

                    31:56.563 –> 31:58.124

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So thoroughly enjoyed my chat with Charles.

                    31:58.624 –> 32:06.573

                    [SPEAKER_02]: You can get your hands on our notes from this episode, including those top tips and links to the things we mentioned by heading over to the website, ecommercemasterplanned.com.

                    32:07.034 –> 32:13.981

                    [SPEAKER_02]: You can also go direct the right page on the website by using the shortcode, ECMP.info forward slash the number of this episode.

                    32:14.902 –> 32:17.643

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Once you get to the website, why not add yourself to our email list?

                    32:17.683 –> 32:19.004

                    [SPEAKER_02]: You know you want to.

                    32:19.384 –> 32:19.664

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

                    32:20.425 –> 32:30.450

                    [SPEAKER_02]: If you liked this episode, then you really should go and check out our recent Marketplace series on our sister podcast, keep optimizing.

                    32:30.950 –> 32:32.651

                    [SPEAKER_02]: We finished releasing it last week.

                    32:33.271 –> 32:35.512

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And it really builds on this episode.

                    32:35.572 –> 32:44.475

                    [SPEAKER_02]: There’s five whole episodes about growing your marketplace sales, including how to improve your Amazon conversion rates, how to grow your marketplace sales.

                    32:44.615 –> 32:49.716

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Generally, how to decide what marketplace to be on loads of good stuff across those five episodes.

                    32:49.756 –> 32:54.138

                    [SPEAKER_02]: That’s available right now on keep optimizing, just search for you keep optimizing, you’ll find it.

                    32:54.918 –> 33:00.660

                    [SPEAKER_02]: And if you want more episodes about home ones, then head to ECMP.info for slash home.

                    33:01.600 –> 33:06.302

                    [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for tuning into this in every episode that you do of the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

                    33:06.362 –> 33:17.146

                    [SPEAKER_02]: I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help Ecommerce business owners just like you to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including progressing along that path to net zero.

                    33:17.646 –> 33:23.068

                    [SPEAKER_02]: So if you know someone they show can help, please tell them to listen to the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

                    33:23.468 –> 33:26.089

                    [SPEAKER_02]: I hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

                    33:29.367 –> 33:32.649

                    [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening to the ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

                    33:33.130 –> 33:37.913

                    [SPEAKER_01]: Find out more at ecommercemasterplanned.com slash podcast.

                    34 min
                  • eCommerce MasterPlan | 559: Fast-Tracking Growth: Community, Niching Down, and Multi-Channel Strategies from Dood Woof

                    Elina Panteleyeva is the founder of Dood Woof, a dog brand focused on Doodles. Founded in 2023, they hit $600k in year one, and are on track for sales of $2million this year. They’re already multichannel selling on their Shopify store, TikTok Shop, and Amazon. 

                     

                    In this episode, Elina reveals the exact strategies she used to grow fast, build a loyal community, and sell premium products without competing on price. 

                     

                    Hit PLAY to hear: 

                     

                    • How a first-time founder turned a layoff into a $2M eCommerce brand in under 2 years 
                    • The niche marketing strategy that made Dood Woof dominate the Doodle dog market 
                    • Why email (not discounts) is the secret weapon driving repeat sales and loyal fans 
                    • The unconventional reason Elina sends ALL ad traffic to Amazon instead of her website 
                    • How to sell premium products on Amazon without joining the price war 
                    • The AI tools and automation ideas she’s exploring to scale without a big team 

                      •  

                      Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

                      [04:29] “Doodle Detangler Idea Journey” 

                      [08:24] Trusting EA with Daily Operations 

                      [10:47] Building Trust with VIP Customers 

                      [13:58] Maximizing Amazon Sales via Traffic 

                      [17:22] “Nurturing Customers Beyond Amazon” 

                      [20:00] Listen to Elina’s Top Tips! 

                       

                      Full episode notes here: https://ecmp.info/559  

                      This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

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                      WEBVTT

                      00:00.091 –> 00:08.474

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Another benefit I want to call out for doing this is that if someone looks at the landing page and they’re not interested, they’ll leave right then.

                      00:08.654 –> 00:16.957

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And it’s only the really interested ones that will continue on, which means that once they actually get to Amazon, they’re way more likely to convert.

                      00:17.318 –> 00:23.500

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And so my conversion rate on Amazon is like insane and Amazon loves that and it boosts you up the rankings.

                      00:26.540 –> 00:28.901

                      [SPEAKER_00]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

                      00:29.461 –> 00:33.542

                      [SPEAKER_00]: Here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

                      00:34.062 –> 00:41.845

                      [SPEAKER_00]: Cutting through the hinder to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

                      00:45.583 –> 00:46.744

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome.

                      00:46.804 –> 00:47.945

                      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s great to have you here.

                      00:48.025 –> 00:51.608

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

                      00:51.768 –> 00:58.354

                      [SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, we are getting super duper practical with a super duper fast growth boot strapped startup.

                      00:58.734 –> 01:01.016

                      [SPEAKER_02]: My guest is really focusing on me.

                      01:01.036 –> 01:10.405

                      [SPEAKER_02]: She’s really keeping her business simple, but she is driving the results and she’ll be telling us the inside track on a couple of the very cool marketing pieces she’s doing.

                      01:10.445 –> 01:12.847

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And there’s a nice big chat about community as well.

                      01:13.327 –> 01:18.592

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Please listen to the end of the episode so you don’t miss out on her top tips and my own take on this episode.

                      01:23.588 –> 01:30.454

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And now to introduce our special guest, Alina is the founder of Dudeworth, a dog brand focused on doodles.

                      01:30.914 –> 01:39.482

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Founded in, in, twenty, twenty, three, they hit six hundred thousand dollars in sales in year one and are on track for sales of two million dollars this year.

                      01:39.542 –> 01:41.443

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Some super great growth going on there.

                      01:41.844 –> 01:47.369

                      [SPEAKER_02]: They’re already multi channel selling on their Shopify store TikTok shop and Amazon.

                      01:47.449 –> 01:48.249

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Hello, Alina.

                      01:48.590 –> 01:49.270

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Chloe.

                      01:49.310 –> 01:50.011

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Happy to be here.

                      01:50.311 –> 01:56.616

                      [SPEAKER_02]: A great time in huge congrats on creating such cool growth in such a tiny niche.

                      01:57.116 –> 02:00.459

                      [SPEAKER_02]: I’m sure we’ll get into one of that, but huge congrats to you for what you’ve achieved so far.

                      02:01.180 –> 02:03.021

                      [SPEAKER_02]: How did you get into Ecommerce though?

                      02:03.421 –> 02:06.624

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So in twenty twenty three, I was laid off for my tech job.

                      02:07.264 –> 02:11.348

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I didn’t have any experience in Ecommerce or entrepreneurship.

                      02:11.888 –> 02:18.831

                      [SPEAKER_01]: But I took that as a sign from the universe that if there was any time to start a business, it’d be now.

                      02:19.571 –> 02:26.494

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And I picked up this book and it was happened to be about e-commerce and I was reading it and I was like, I think I can do this.

                      02:27.034 –> 02:39.369

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of what I talked about was instead of focusing on selling a product, choosing a specific group of people that you want to serve, and then creating a product for that specific group of people.

                      02:40.030 –> 02:42.573

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, okay, that makes a lot of sense to me.

                      02:43.114 –> 02:46.338

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And that’s what I did to get this thing off the ground.

                      02:46.778 –> 02:47.279

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Very cool.

                      02:47.299 –> 02:48.241

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Do you know what the book was?

                      02:48.402 –> 02:49.604

                      [SPEAKER_02]: You’re willing to name check it.

                      02:50.426 –> 02:55.035

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it’s twelve months to one million by Ryan Moran.

                      02:55.656 –> 02:58.442

                      [SPEAKER_01]: He’s now a mentor of mine and it changed my life.

                      02:58.800 –> 03:06.165

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it’s such a clever way to go about building an e-commerce business because it makes things so much more simple.

                      03:06.686 –> 03:08.647

                      [SPEAKER_02]: If it’s customer first product second.

                      03:09.067 –> 03:22.877

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and the really cool thing about it is when you launch your product, if you already have someone you’re targeting to serve, you’ve likely already talked to them and you know that the product that you’re launching serves their specific pain point.

                      03:23.337 –> 03:31.306

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I don’t know if you’ll get repeat sales, but if you follow this method in process, guarantee that you’ll get sales from day one at least one time.

                      03:31.667 –> 03:33.529

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because it’s not all come out of your own head.

                      03:34.129 –> 03:35.791

                      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s come out of the actual target customer.

                      03:35.811 –> 03:36.212

                      [SPEAKER_02]: I love it.

                      03:36.772 –> 03:37.113

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

                      03:37.173 –> 03:38.935

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Also, lay off book.

                      03:39.375 –> 03:39.956

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Let’s do this.

                      03:40.076 –> 03:44.141

                      [SPEAKER_02]: What led you to go down the world of pet brands and pet products?

                      03:44.541 –> 03:47.362

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So I got laid off, and obviously I had no money.

                      03:47.422 –> 03:47.962

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I was broke.

                      03:48.282 –> 03:49.062

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I had some savings.

                      03:49.202 –> 03:54.463

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I was living off of, and I knew that no matter what I started, I had two routes to get the word out.

                      03:54.823 –> 03:59.925

                      [SPEAKER_01]: It was either paid ads or organic social media, and I didn’t have money for paid ads.

                      04:00.365 –> 04:04.686

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So my only option was organic social media, and I have a dog.

                      04:04.926 –> 04:08.727

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I have a doodle specifically, which is any dog mixed with a poodle.

                      04:09.747 –> 04:13.150

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, OK, I think I can make content with my dog.

                      04:13.410 –> 04:17.093

                      [SPEAKER_01]: That would probably be the most kind of straightforward, easiest way to do it.

                      04:17.673 –> 04:18.914

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And I love my dog, too.

                      04:18.934 –> 04:20.075

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So it was a win-win.

                      04:20.535 –> 04:26.059

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And so what I did was I made a decision that the brand I was going to start was going to be for doodle owners.

                      04:26.479 –> 04:28.801

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I had no idea what product I was going to create.

                      04:29.241 –> 04:36.867

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So what I decided to do, very scrappy, is I went on Facebook, and I typed in doodle owners’ Facebook groups.

                      04:37.487 –> 04:44.697

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And I joined a bunch of them and I posted in there and I said, hey, would anyone be willing to talk to me about the challenges of having a doodle?

                      04:45.177 –> 04:50.204

                      [SPEAKER_01]: You’d be surprised how many people are willing to talk about their dollars.

                      04:50.224 –> 04:55.250

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So, met with a bunch of people and the biggest challenge was that their hair gets matted easily.

                      04:56.291 –> 05:01.475

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And I took the challenge, put it into chatGBT and said, this is the pain point.

                      05:01.935 –> 05:04.197

                      [SPEAKER_01]: What are some good products to create from this?

                      05:04.737 –> 05:08.420

                      [SPEAKER_01]: One of the top ones was a detangler spray, which is what I chose.

                      05:08.880 –> 05:15.805

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I looked out what’s on the market and saw that everything was filled with harsh chemicals or ingredients I couldn’t pronounce.

                      05:16.245 –> 05:19.288

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So I said, yep, I’m going to create a doodle detangler spray.

                      05:19.648 –> 05:23.731

                      [SPEAKER_01]: My differentiating factors that it’s going to be all natural human-grade ingredients.

                      05:24.251 –> 05:30.539

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And then I just started documenting my journey of creating this product on Instagram through my email list.

                      05:30.699 –> 05:39.049

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I started building all that up and getting people excited for a launch that I had no idea when it was going to happen or if it was even going to happen.

                      05:39.849 –> 05:40.589

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Very cool.

                      05:40.649 –> 05:42.811

                      [SPEAKER_02]: I love the niche and I love the community aspect.

                      05:42.831 –> 05:48.834

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So I’m sure we’ll get into both of those shortly, but let’s just explain a little bit more about the nuts and bolts of the business before we go any deeper.

                      05:49.274 –> 05:53.557

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So you’re based in the US, you purely selling US or you selling overseas as well.

                      05:53.817 –> 05:54.357

                      [SPEAKER_02]: I’ll US.

                      05:54.858 –> 05:55.118

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Nice.

                      05:55.198 –> 06:02.142

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Keep it simple like it and is there still just the one product or a few expanded beyond just the spray.

                      06:02.502 –> 06:03.222

                      [SPEAKER_01]: We expanded.

                      06:03.363 –> 06:11.407

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So my goal was to get this one product to a spot where I had systems in place where I could easily launch new products.

                      06:11.987 –> 06:14.789

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So after about a year, we launched a second product.

                      06:14.929 –> 06:16.210

                      [SPEAKER_01]: It’s called a doodle shampoo.

                      06:16.590 –> 06:19.031

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And that’s growing even faster than the first one.

                      06:19.451 –> 06:23.073

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And now we have the serial probably won’t be launching product three and four.

                      06:23.554 –> 06:25.615

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Still always focused on the doodles.

                      06:26.075 –> 06:28.537

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Yep, this whole company is specifically for doodles.

                      06:28.617 –> 06:31.338

                      [SPEAKER_01]: We already have thousands of thousands of customers.

                      06:31.679 –> 06:35.921

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So it won’t make sense to get a different type of customer instead.

                      06:35.941 –> 06:41.365

                      [SPEAKER_01]: We’re going to keep launching products that serve the community and products that we know that they want to that same customer.

                      06:41.865 –> 06:45.727

                      [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds so simple, but so many people are absolutely failed to do it.

                      06:47.268 –> 06:50.853

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Is it been hard to keeping focused and not getting distracted by other things?

                      06:50.893 –> 06:54.198

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Or do you find it easy to continue committing to that niche?

                      06:54.498 –> 06:58.865

                      [SPEAKER_01]: To the niche it’s so easy because it makes everything a lot more straightforward, right?

                      06:58.945 –> 07:01.048

                      [SPEAKER_01]: All my marketing is are you a doodle owner?

                      07:01.588 –> 07:03.331

                      [SPEAKER_01]: All my content is the

                      07:04.292 –> 07:12.877

                      [SPEAKER_01]: DIY enrichment toys for doodles, or I know what doodal owners want, and what they are looking for, and so I’m able to easily provide value.

                      07:13.438 –> 07:18.461

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Now, sometimes there have been times where I’ve lost focus and had to put myself back on track.

                      07:18.601 –> 07:26.066

                      [SPEAKER_01]: For example, I thought that Pinterest would be a great idea, which I’m sure it would be, but it was a bit of a distraction at that time.

                      07:26.186 –> 07:30.689

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And so instead, it’s better to just double down on what’s already working, and

                      07:31.309 –> 07:37.653

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Just stay in your lane until you have a much bigger team that can actually dedicate a lot of time to growing other areas.

                      07:38.273 –> 07:41.395

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Now you’re fast tracking your growth, but you’re also beat strapping.

                      07:41.415 –> 07:42.835

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So what does the team look like?

                      07:42.855 –> 07:47.378

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Because that’s often one of the hardest things to get right when you’re so focused on cash flow.

                      07:47.918 –> 07:48.959

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So who’s in the team?

                      07:48.999 –> 07:49.999

                      [SPEAKER_02]: What are you outsourcing?

                      07:50.019 –> 07:50.820

                      [SPEAKER_02]: What are you doing yourself?

                      07:51.520 –> 07:58.064

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I am the only person employed by Dude Wolf, and then I have an EA that works full-time.

                      07:58.784 –> 08:01.345

                      [SPEAKER_01]: that I brought on board at probably four months ago.

                      08:01.945 –> 08:11.689

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And then I have a couple contractors for design and obviously have a manufacturer and then just finance is outsourced.

                      08:12.149 –> 08:12.549

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Got you.

                      08:12.849 –> 08:20.271

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And how do you decide what to give to the executive assistant the EA and what to keep yourself?

                      08:20.432 –> 08:24.373

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Has that been a straightforward one for you or has it moved over time?

                      08:24.733 –> 08:25.374

                      [SPEAKER_01]: It’s moved.

                      08:25.754 –> 08:29.757

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I feel really blessed and lucky that my EA is she’s amazing.

                      08:30.177 –> 08:34.120

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And so as we’ve formed our relationship, we continue to build trust with each other.

                      08:34.260 –> 08:39.364

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So things that I honestly never thought that I could get off my plate.

                      08:39.964 –> 08:44.628

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I feel really comfortable showing her how to do it and then having her take that over.

                      08:45.348 –> 08:46.629

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So that’s been really nice.

                      08:46.810 –> 09:02.966

                      [SPEAKER_01]: My goal is to give her all the data, day operations stuff, customer service, just little things that like we DM every single person that follows us on Instagram, just little things that just take a lot of time and then I want to be focused more on product development and just

                      09:03.887 –> 09:08.108

                      [SPEAKER_01]: corporate return, bigger picture, things, that’s true.

                      09:09.209 –> 09:13.970

                      [SPEAKER_01]: If I ever want to sell the business, I’m aware that can’t be the one that’s running the day-to-day things.

                      09:14.611 –> 09:15.391

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, so true.

                      09:15.751 –> 09:16.411

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So true.

                      09:17.191 –> 09:22.573

                      [SPEAKER_02]: We mentioned about the fact you were building the community almost before you even had a product idea.

                      09:23.254 –> 09:28.495

                      [SPEAKER_02]: You said that you’re, you know, you’re keeping that community going by doing the DMs as people follow on Instagram.

                      09:28.575 –> 09:30.076

                      [SPEAKER_02]: How else have you gone about

                      09:31.060 –> 09:34.703

                      [SPEAKER_02]: consolidating that community and leveraging that community.

                      09:34.783 –> 09:36.445

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Do they have to join something?

                      09:36.545 –> 09:38.226

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Is it about joining your email list?

                      09:38.346 –> 09:41.329

                      [SPEAKER_02]: What are the key parts for you that makes community work?

                      09:41.829 –> 09:43.611

                      [SPEAKER_01]: My community is a lot of different places.

                      09:43.691 –> 09:46.393

                      [SPEAKER_01]: It can be on Instagram, TikTok, I have a Facebook group.

                      09:46.934 –> 09:48.876

                      [SPEAKER_01]: But my email list is my bread and butter.

                      09:49.216 –> 09:53.319

                      [SPEAKER_01]: This is where I want everyone at some point to be because

                      09:54.060 –> 09:59.727

                      [SPEAKER_01]: A couple reasons, one reason is that Instagram to sale, for example, is the hardest conversion.

                      10:00.028 –> 10:03.392

                      [SPEAKER_01]: The easiest conversion is actually email to sale.

                      10:03.852 –> 10:10.501

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So my goal with Instagram, my goal with TikTok is not to get them to sale, but it’s to get them on my email.

                      10:10.581 –> 10:12.483

                      [SPEAKER_01]: It’s actually, that’s my call to action.

                      10:13.324 –> 10:28.846

                      [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of what I do that’s different than many e-commerce brands that I’ve seen is I don’t really send out the fifteen percent coupon email instead I do very storytelling formats and I also just I just talked I write my own emails that’s a big part of

                      10:29.507 –> 10:30.508

                      [SPEAKER_01]: what I want to keep doing.

                      10:31.029 –> 10:33.771

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And I just talked to them about what’s going on right now.

                      10:33.791 –> 10:34.952

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I’m developing a new product.

                      10:34.972 –> 10:37.875

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So I emailed the list and I said, hey, I would love for someone.

                      10:37.915 –> 10:40.337

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Anyone be willing to hop on with me for fifteen minutes.

                      10:40.717 –> 10:42.419

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I’d love to show you what I have in mind.

                      10:42.779 –> 10:43.980

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Get your feedback on it.

                      10:44.321 –> 10:45.842

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So I had a bunch of people respond.

                      10:45.862 –> 10:46.943

                      [SPEAKER_01]: They’re like, I’d love to.

                      10:47.283 –> 10:50.907

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So those little things build up what I call like the VIP list.

                      10:51.287 –> 10:53.169

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And those are the people that if you

                      10:53.789 –> 10:55.509

                      [SPEAKER_01]: spend the time building trust with them.

                      10:55.529 –> 10:57.190

                      [SPEAKER_01]: They’re going to buy your products.

                      10:57.210 –> 10:59.730

                      [SPEAKER_01]: They’re going to be obsessed with your brand because they want to support you.

                      11:00.410 –> 11:03.351

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And you can always go back to them and ask them for reviews.

                      11:03.771 –> 11:07.032

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So I got a one star review on Amazon for my shampoo.

                      11:07.532 –> 11:09.172

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And I sent an email to my list.

                      11:09.232 –> 11:12.213

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I got this one star review about the bottle leaking.

                      11:12.493 –> 11:13.813

                      [SPEAKER_01]: This is what we’re doing to change it.

                      11:13.853 –> 11:15.054

                      [SPEAKER_01]: We’re updating the packaging.

                      11:15.094 –> 11:17.594

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Here’s the picture to ensure there’s no bottle leaking.

                      11:17.914 –> 11:20.795

                      [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, if you love the product, it would mean so much to me.

                      11:21.235 –> 11:34.305

                      [SPEAKER_01]: if you could leave a review an honest review on Amazon about your experience and I got like twenty reviews from that five star reviews and that’s just because over time I’ve built trust with these people and they want to actually support.

                      11:34.325 –> 11:42.412

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So it’s like a true newsletter full of the news of what’s actually going on rather than every other week a different offer on the product.

                      11:42.837 –> 11:49.863

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you can, like sometimes I’ll run promotions and sales, not really often, but you want people to want to open your emails, right?

                      11:49.923 –> 11:59.811

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So my thought is, if I get emails, always about, hey, now this company’s running this, they’re on this, they’re on the sale, like it’s just an always at that point.

                      12:00.192 –> 12:04.175

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then you don’t cut through and you don’t get the interesting people and so on and so forth.

                      12:04.195 –> 12:06.717

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So community love those tips, thank you.

                      12:06.877 –> 12:10.860

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And then you’ve already gone on to three different sales channels, which

                      12:11.641 –> 12:15.466

                      [SPEAKER_02]: is a lot more multiplication of work than if you were just on the one.

                      12:15.486 –> 12:20.192

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So you’ve got your Shopify store, you’ve got your Amazon listings and you’ve got the TikTok shop.

                      12:20.893 –> 12:26.339

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And you mentioned about how you know you were trying to do Pinterest as a marketing channel and cut it back.

                      12:27.000 –> 12:31.005

                      [SPEAKER_02]: What’s your approach to balancing those three channels in the business?

                      12:31.045 –> 12:36.832

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Because each of them requires different skills, different activity, different focus.

                      12:36.872 –> 12:42.119

                      [SPEAKER_02]: How do you decide where to put your effort between Amazon, Shopify and TikTok shop?

                      12:42.519 –> 12:50.403

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I’m so glad you brought that up because you’re a hundred percent correct in that it’s really hard to focus on all those channels at once.

                      12:50.903 –> 12:52.904

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So what I do is all my traffic.

                      12:53.384 –> 13:04.570

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I made a business decision that I want to drive all my traffic to Amazon, which is unconventional for most Amazon sellers in the sense that I run a lot of Facebook ads and most people would send that to their website.

                      13:05.110 –> 13:07.051

                      [SPEAKER_01]: What I do is I run the Facebook ad.

                      13:07.431 –> 13:10.413

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I send them to a landing page where I collect their emails.

                      13:11.073 –> 13:20.356

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Since Amazon doesn’t give you any customer data after, so I collect the customer data upfront to get them on my email list, and then I send them to Amazon after that.

                      13:20.757 –> 13:23.417

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Most people would just send them to Shopify, that’s totally fine.

                      13:23.798 –> 13:27.299

                      [SPEAKER_01]: But I would say, seventy five percent of our sales come through Amazon.

                      13:27.999 –> 13:35.582

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And because I only drive traffic through there, I do have like another portion of the business, twenty percent from TikTok shop.

                      13:36.343 –> 13:42.405

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And that is just, that’s a lot of what my EA focuses on, too, is building influencer relationships through TikTok.

                      13:42.425 –> 13:43.366

                      [SPEAKER_01]: They make videos.

                      13:43.906 –> 13:46.207

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And then that’s how those sales come from.

                      13:46.767 –> 13:49.368

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And then my website, I don’t drive any traffic there.

                      13:49.788 –> 13:55.611

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I think there’s just some stragglers that would rather buy on the website, or we have some blogs that have been ranking

                      13:56.091 –> 13:57.832

                      [SPEAKER_01]: but we don’t focus on that at all.

                      13:58.172 –> 14:07.999

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So you’re doing that thing which the Amazon idealist I suppose would say which is if you really want to make it work you send traffic from off Amazon to on Amazon.

                      14:08.620 –> 14:11.702

                      [SPEAKER_02]: You know because we know that the more you sell on Amazon the more you sell on Amazon.

                      14:11.722 –> 14:17.926

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So if you could feed the sales as well by sending people there then you’ll do better on the organic and so on and so forth on Amazon.

                      14:18.526 –> 14:26.195

                      [SPEAKER_02]: I love that idea of sending the Facebook ad’s traffic to the email sign-up form before you send it on to Amazon.

                      14:26.936 –> 14:36.608

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Do you make it clear in the ads that they’re going to somewhere that’s an email sign-up or that then they’re going to Amazon or is it kind of like a click and then, oh look at one of an email sign-up page.

                      14:37.188 –> 14:38.048

                      [SPEAKER_01]: It’s click.

                      14:38.369 –> 14:45.391

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So kind of my flow is I get a lot of my creatives for Facebook ads from influencers, like just real people using the product.

                      14:45.411 –> 14:47.292

                      [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of that comes from TikTok.

                      14:47.692 –> 14:48.793

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Then we run the good ones.

                      14:48.833 –> 14:50.293

                      [SPEAKER_01]: We obviously work with the influencer.

                      14:50.313 –> 14:51.614

                      [SPEAKER_01]: We run the good ones as ads.

                      14:52.394 –> 14:53.596

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And they click on the add.

                      14:53.636 –> 14:56.439

                      [SPEAKER_01]: It takes them to a landing page explaining the product.

                      14:56.879 –> 14:59.061

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So it’s not like sign up here.

                      14:59.122 –> 15:02.926

                      [SPEAKER_01]: It’s explaining effortless grooming for your doodle a bunch more UGC.

                      15:03.386 –> 15:09.152

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So another benefit I want to call out for doing this is that is someone looks at the landing page.

                      15:10.133 –> 15:12.496

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And they’re not interested, they’ll leave right then.

                      15:12.676 –> 15:20.945

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And it’s only the really interested ones that will continue on, which means that once they actually get to Amazon, they’re way more likely to convert.

                      15:21.305 –> 15:25.630

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And so my conversion rate on Amazon is like insane and Amazon loves that.

                      15:25.770 –> 15:27.532

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And it boosts you up the rankings.

                      15:27.933 –> 15:30.635

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So educating them off Amazon as much as you can is

                      15:32.157 –> 15:33.138

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I think a good strategy.

                      15:33.678 –> 15:36.300

                      [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so they go to the landing page and then there’s an option.

                      15:36.320 –> 15:39.962

                      [SPEAKER_01]: They can get a coupon for fifteen percent off and that’s when they can get my email.

                      15:40.462 –> 15:42.143

                      [SPEAKER_01]: This is just a business decision I made.

                      15:42.163 –> 15:48.687

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I do have an option where they don’t have to give their coupon or they don’t have to give their email, but a lot of people actually do give their email.

                      15:49.167 –> 16:00.374

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So definitely recommend if you’re running any sort of off Amazon traffic, getting that customer information up front and then nurturing them through email.

                      16:00.900 –> 16:01.300

                      [SPEAKER_02]: got you.

                      16:01.440 –> 16:05.483

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And so they’ve given you or not given you their email for that fifteen percent off-code.

                      16:05.503 –> 16:09.545

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And then is that fifteen percent off-code happening on Amazon?

                      16:09.646 –> 16:10.886

                      [SPEAKER_02]: That’s a code to use on Amazon.

                      16:11.006 –> 16:11.627

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it is.

                      16:11.687 –> 16:12.067

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Got it.

                      16:12.467 –> 16:17.210

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So you mentioned about any emails that you’re doing the high content rather than the discounting.

                      16:17.831 –> 16:25.115

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And then we all know that on Amazon it can become a price nightmare race to the bottom against noodles of competitors and all those kind of challenges.

                      16:25.155 –> 16:28.797

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And you are using a discount to encourage that first purchase on Amazon.

                      16:29.758 –> 16:37.671

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Are you then doing lots of other promotions on Amazon as, you know, price matching and worrying about your margin the whole time on there?

                      16:37.771 –> 16:44.802

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Or if you, because you’re doing so much in educating the customer and focusing on that niche, you’re able to kind of play your own pricing game over there.

                      16:45.102 –> 16:56.375

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the really neat thing about building an actual brand and not just slapping products on Amazon is that you’re no longer worried about your competitors because people are searching for your brand.

                      16:56.936 –> 17:02.923

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So my products, let’s see, the detangler spray is double or triple the price of the competitors.

                      17:03.443 –> 17:04.284

                      [SPEAKER_01]: My shampoo is

                      17:05.145 –> 17:12.028

                      [SPEAKER_01]: not double, but people buy it a lot more often, but it’s that most expensive shampoo on Amazon.

                      17:12.668 –> 17:17.170

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And the benefit of that is I can then run promotions.

                      17:17.330 –> 17:18.751

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I still have a ton of margin.

                      17:19.171 –> 17:22.373

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So I’m able to put money back into the business.

                      17:22.473 –> 17:30.796

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I’m able to put more money back into just serving my audience, like hire this EA that can now give amazing customer service to these people.

                      17:30.816 –> 17:30.876

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And

                      17:32.737 –> 17:33.518

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I’m not competing.

                      17:33.538 –> 17:39.523

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I’m not going into price wars with Amazon sellers because I know that I’m getting those customers off of Amazon.

                      17:40.003 –> 17:42.685

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Even if they don’t buy right away, I’m nurturing them through email.

                      17:43.246 –> 17:47.089

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And my highest search keyword is Dude Wolf Doodle Detangler Spray.

                      17:47.529 –> 17:54.495

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So people are seeing stuff off of Amazon and going on Amazon just to search for the exact brand and product.

                      17:54.855 –> 17:58.378

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So they don’t really care about the other stuff that’s seven dollars on there.

                      17:59.074 –> 17:59.355

                      [SPEAKER_02]: nice.

                      17:59.415 –> 18:07.425

                      [SPEAKER_02]: It really shows the power of the community activity that you’re doing and the content that you’re producing that your number one search term is yourself.

                      18:07.806 –> 18:11.050

                      [SPEAKER_02]: It’s like that is clearly clearly paying off.

                      18:11.310 –> 18:13.373

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And it makes it really a lot cheaper because

                      18:14.194 –> 18:20.079

                      [SPEAKER_01]: those really expensive keywords that people try to rank for because this is a high converting listing now.

                      18:20.499 –> 18:22.501

                      [SPEAKER_01]: People are searching for the branded search terms.

                      18:22.801 –> 18:28.705

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Amazon naturally knows it’s kind of related to expensive keywords like dog detangler spray.

                      18:29.306 –> 18:38.933

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And so without bidding super high on these keywords, it’ll just organically put it into the pages, the first second page, however, of those big words.

                      18:39.474 –> 18:43.597

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So like naturally increases your rankings on the really expensive keywords.

                      18:44.101 –> 18:45.802

                      [SPEAKER_02]: which is never a bad thing.

                      18:47.543 –> 18:48.483

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Never a bad thing.

                      18:48.784 –> 18:52.426

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So you mentioned that obviously you’re trying to keep things focused.

                      18:52.466 –> 18:55.227

                      [SPEAKER_02]: You’ve expanded the team to give you more time to work on business development.

                      18:55.247 –> 18:57.748

                      [SPEAKER_02]: You’ve got new products in the running.

                      18:57.888 –> 19:02.391

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Anything else that’s got you excited for the coming months and the year ahead?

                      19:02.933 –> 19:05.254

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely the product development I’m excited.

                      19:05.354 –> 19:09.355

                      [SPEAKER_01]: These are fun projects to work on and it’s completely different than our first two.

                      19:09.895 –> 19:11.455

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of focus on that.

                      19:11.555 –> 19:16.817

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Additionally, I’m really interested in AI and how to implement AI more in the business.

                      19:16.877 –> 19:25.419

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So we’re figuring out what parts of the business we can automate more and that’s pretty exciting before you would have to hire a lot more people, but we’re

                      19:25.859 –> 19:35.241

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Taking the approach of, okay, let’s figure out what kind of tools are you exist, how we can automate our workflows, so that’s been a bit part of what we’re working on now.

                      19:36.241 –> 19:41.002

                      [SPEAKER_00]: Ecommerce Masterplan is supporting by some of the greatest companies in the Ecommerce sector.

                      19:41.162 –> 19:42.522

                      [SPEAKER_00]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

                      19:49.124 –> 19:51.244

                      [SPEAKER_00]: It’s time for the top six round.

                      19:53.308 –> 19:58.650

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I love this section because it gives me and our listeners some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level.

                      19:58.690 –> 20:00.570

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Say, Elina, are you ready for the top tips?

                      20:00.870 –> 20:01.450

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Let’s do it.

                      20:01.650 –> 20:02.771

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the book top tip.

                      20:02.831 –> 20:09.053

                      [SPEAKER_02]: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

                      20:09.393 –> 20:11.613

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And is it the one you mentioned earlier or are there more?

                      20:11.933 –> 20:13.334

                      [SPEAKER_01]: That would be the one that I would.

                      20:14.054 –> 20:17.859

                      [SPEAKER_01]: really recommend twelve months to one million by Ryan Miranda.

                      20:18.299 –> 20:26.289

                      [SPEAKER_01]: It gives you a different perspective on how to build an e-com brand, which is I think the right way to build an e-com brand.

                      20:26.669 –> 20:30.033

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And given your success doing it, it does suggest it’s a good route to go down.

                      20:30.333 –> 20:36.540

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So love the fact we’re doubling down on twelve months to one million going get your hands on that everybody.

                      20:37.021 –> 20:42.487

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Down the traffic top tip which marketing method do you either price above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves.

                      20:46.772 –> 20:50.313

                      [SPEAKER_01]: when you try to target everyone, you’re targeting no one.

                      20:50.973 –> 20:54.654

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So by niching down, you can really focus on that specific person.

                      20:54.754 –> 21:00.256

                      [SPEAKER_01]: It catches your eye and marketing and you really learn about their pain points and can serve them well.

                      21:00.896 –> 21:02.917

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Simple, but so hard to do.

                      21:03.217 –> 21:04.197

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So very cool.

                      21:04.297 –> 21:04.977

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Tool, top tip.

                      21:05.097 –> 21:14.100

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plugin, a phone up or just a way of working is a little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day.

                      21:14.855 –> 21:16.096

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I’ll do two for this one.

                      21:16.436 –> 21:20.199

                      [SPEAKER_01]: The first is something just that we do that I think is often overlooked.

                      21:20.679 –> 21:24.842

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone that follows us on Instagram, we DM them personally.

                      21:24.863 –> 21:30.887

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason is because if someone follows you on Instagram, they are essentially a lead.

                      21:31.287 –> 21:32.628

                      [SPEAKER_01]: They follow you for some reason.

                      21:32.668 –> 21:34.570

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that’s a lot of times overlooked.

                      21:35.010 –> 21:42.435

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And so we get actually get a lot of sales from people that follow us that probably wouldn’t have bought, but by us like manually reaching out to them and being like, hey,

                      21:43.496 –> 21:53.538

                      [SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted to see why you’ve followed us a lot of times that leads to sales and then an actual tool that I really enjoy using for anyone that does anything on TikTok shop.

                      21:53.899 –> 22:07.662

                      [SPEAKER_01]: There’s this bot called Yuka and it helps you with a lot of the outreach and segmenting influencers and it’s just so much better to organize TikTok shop through their versus an actual TikTok shop platform.

                      22:08.022 –> 22:10.244

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Good in how are we spelling that one?

                      22:10.264 –> 22:11.905

                      [SPEAKER_02]: E-U-K-A.

                      22:12.805 –> 22:13.786

                      [SPEAKER_02]: You got that AI.

                      22:14.366 –> 22:18.309

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Nice, I would never have guessed there was an E in there, so I’m glad I asked that one.

                      22:18.489 –> 22:19.510

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Very cool, yeah.

                      22:19.930 –> 22:22.412

                      [SPEAKER_02]: I’ve not heard of that, so top tip.

                      22:22.972 –> 22:24.953

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Carbon, top tip to finish off.

                      22:25.073 –> 22:28.676

                      [SPEAKER_02]: What’s your favourite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

                      22:29.008 –> 22:29.488

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Packaging.

                      22:30.208 –> 22:38.231

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, first of all, so as minimal packaging or as sustainable packaging as we can do, definitely puts thought into that.

                      22:38.671 –> 22:46.254

                      [SPEAKER_01]: And then personally, I moved into a new office space and it’s so bright and light that we’re just not using.

                      22:46.274 –> 22:50.836

                      [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, it makes me happier, but we’re just not using the lights as much anymore.

                      22:51.316 –> 22:53.537

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that’s a life hack is more fun.

                      22:54.577 –> 22:55.857

                      [SPEAKER_02]: More sun, more daylight.

                      22:55.937 –> 22:57.778

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, why do ourselves away from it?

                      22:57.958 –> 22:58.598

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Love that one.

                      22:59.058 –> 23:04.939

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Alina, before we say goodbye, could you please let listeners know where they can find you and do to work on the web and social media?

                      23:05.339 –> 23:05.719

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

                      23:05.919 –> 23:12.800

                      [SPEAKER_01]: You can follow us on Instagram at DudeWolfCoDODWOLOFCO.

                      23:13.180 –> 23:13.500

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Brilliant.

                      23:13.780 –> 23:19.622

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I know that you have somehow managed to find time to help other brands follow in your footsteps.

                      23:19.662 –> 23:22.062

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So, can you tell us a bit about your coaching services, please?

                      23:22.582 –> 23:24.143

                      [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it’s very straightforward.

                      23:24.443 –> 23:39.987

                      [SPEAKER_01]: So I just do one-on-one hourly coaching and if you’re interested in getting help with building your e-com brand or just branding in general, you can reach out to me at www.alinatoxbrand.com.

                      23:40.588 –> 23:41.448

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Simple as that, everyone.

                      23:41.488 –> 23:43.328

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Alinatoxbrand.com.

                      23:43.408 –> 23:48.390

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Alina, thank you so much for coming on and being so open, talking about how you’re growing your business so fast.

                      23:48.790 –> 23:49.930

                      [SPEAKER_02]: We really appreciate it.

                      23:49.990 –> 23:50.711

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being here.

                      23:51.071 –> 23:51.931

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.

                      23:57.702 –> 24:01.605

                      [SPEAKER_02]: lots of juicy ideas there in the chat with Alina.

                      24:01.725 –> 24:14.956

                      [SPEAKER_02]: I think for me the two biggest ones were one B, no I’m going to give you three would want to be the community and her focus on building that community and then leveraging that community to improve the business.

                      24:15.696 –> 24:17.257

                      [SPEAKER_02]: The second one would be

                      24:18.238 –> 24:21.241

                      [SPEAKER_02]: The clarity she has of the role of the different channels.

                      24:21.721 –> 24:23.483

                      [SPEAKER_02]: TikTok is about getting email signups.

                      24:24.123 –> 24:26.065

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Instagram is about getting email signups.

                      24:26.505 –> 24:28.367

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Not about selling, but about doing that.

                      24:28.407 –> 24:31.009

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And then she’s got the email campaigns ready to drive the sales.

                      24:31.149 –> 24:32.110

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So love that focus.

                      24:32.230 –> 24:32.490

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And then

                      24:33.171 –> 24:42.313

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think she’s the first person I’ve ever come across who’s doing Facebook ads to a landing page to get an email address to then give them a code to go and spend somewhere else.

                      24:42.733 –> 24:44.994

                      [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that’s such an interesting way of doing it.

                      24:45.014 –> 24:50.055

                      [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to see the stats on that and see how it would work against a sales campaign.

                      24:50.115 –> 24:55.476

                      [SPEAKER_02]: But really, interestingly, get you thinking about doing something a bit different and the impact it might have.

                      24:55.936 –> 25:02.878

                      [SPEAKER_02]: You can get your hands on our notes from this episode, including those top tips and links to what we mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterplan.com.

                      25:03.398 –> 25:13.769

                      [SPEAKER_02]: You can also use our direct-to-episode short links just put ECMP.info for such the number of this episode into the URL bar and then you’ll be redirected straight to the right-episode page.

                      25:14.229 –> 25:21.716

                      [SPEAKER_02]: When you get to the website, you can also add yourself to our email list so you don’t miss out on any of the other things we share to help you improve your business.

                      25:22.417 –> 25:27.198

                      [SPEAKER_02]: If you liked this episode, then make sure you check out episode three hundred and ninety-six.

                      25:27.678 –> 25:39.501

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Where I’m chatting to another dog brand founder, this time it’s Guy Blasky explaining how he grew his D to C pet brand, pooch and mut to over twelve million pounds a year.

                      25:39.561 –> 25:43.442

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So a whole other level of growth discussion in that one.

                      25:43.962 –> 25:48.864

                      [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for tuning into this and every episode that you do of the e-commerce master plan podcast.

                      25:49.204 –> 25:58.128

                      [SPEAKER_02]: I bring you a new interview every week to inspire and help e-commerce business owners like you to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including becoming more sustainable.

                      25:58.529 –> 26:03.331

                      [SPEAKER_02]: So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the e-commerce master plan podcast.

                      26:03.731 –> 26:06.192

                      [SPEAKER_02]: I hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

                      26:09.277 –> 26:12.642

                      [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

                      26:13.062 –> 26:17.849

                      [SPEAKER_00]: Find out more at ecommercemasterplanned.com slash podcast.

                      27 min
                    • eCommerce MasterPlan | 558: How Alara Jewelry Doubled eCommerce Sales by Blending In-Store and Online Experiences

                      Babs Noelle is the Ringleader at Alara Jewelry, sellers of artisanal, eco-conscious fine jewelry both designed in house, and supplied by renowned designers too. Founded in 2004 they now sell via their physical retail store, atelier by appointment only, at special events AND via their Shopify store. In total the company does $2.9m a year with 13% year on year growth, and the eCommerce store is booming – seeing 138% year on year growth. 

                       

                      In this episode, Babs shares the secrets behind building a purpose-driven brand, blending in-store magic with online strategy, and creating growth that’s both ethical and explosive. 

                       

                      Hit PLAY to hear: 

                       

                      • How Babs turned a brick-and-mortar store into a booming Shopify success  
                      • The clever reason everyone on her team works on eCommerce  
                      • Why Montana sapphires are the hidden gem of ethical jewelry  
                      • The simple service that makes virtual shopping feel personal again  
                      • How Alara built 138% online growth without sacrificing brand integrity 
                      • The real difference between using “eco-conscious” as a word vs. a mission  

                        •  

                        Key timestamps to dive straight in: 

                        [05:13] Eco-Conscious Jewelry for Global Tourists 

                        [09:04] Diverse Roles in Jewelry Business 

                        [12:44] Three-Person Marketing Team 

                        [16:30] Virtual Custom Appointments for eCommerce 

                        [20:14] Artisanal Appeal: Unique and Sustainable 

                        [22:39] Ethical Jewelry Practices Explained 

                        [24:05] Listen to Babs’ Top Tips! 

                         Full episode notes here: https://ecmp.info/558

                        This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

                        Spotify Ad Analytics – https://www.spotify.com/us/legal/ad-analytics-privacy-policy/

                        —

                        Download our ebook… https://ecmp.info/ebook 500 Tips to Increase Your Profits

                        Get all the links and resources we mention and join our email list at https://ecmp.info

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                        WEBVTT

                        00:00.311 –> 00:04.537

                        [SPEAKER_00]: There is a true story in it because there’s a human behind it.

                        00:05.078 –> 00:07.521

                        [SPEAKER_00]: None of this is corporately made at all.

                        00:08.382 –> 00:17.275

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And there is so much that I can’t translate to a person who doesn’t have their literal fingers on the product.

                        00:20.027 –> 00:22.391

                        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s the e-commerce master plan podcast.

                        00:22.952 –> 00:27.018

                        [SPEAKER_02]: Here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your e-commerce business.

                        00:27.559 –> 00:35.270

                        [SPEAKER_02]: Cutting through the highly to bring you inspiration and advice from the e-commerce sector and beyond, here’s your host, Chloe Thomas.

                        00:38.681 –> 00:39.782

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.

                        00:39.822 –> 00:40.923

                        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s great to have you here.

                        00:40.983 –> 00:44.847

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests.

                        00:45.248 –> 00:47.129

                        [SPEAKER_01]: In this episode we get to talk jewelry.

                        00:47.290 –> 00:48.531

                        [SPEAKER_01]: We get to talk luxury.

                        00:48.571 –> 01:00.402

                        [SPEAKER_01]: We get to talk customer experience with a fascinating lady from the US who is talking to us about her fast growing online store that’s part of a much bigger bricks and clicks operation.

                        01:01.143 –> 01:11.828

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I’d say a little bit of a thank you to her team so she was recording this episode in the back of the store as they were getting ready to open for the day and the team were like ghosts.

                        01:12.148 –> 01:16.271

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I could see them wandering around in the background but you’ll pretty much not hear them at all.

                        01:16.691 –> 01:23.274

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So amazing work from Babs and her team on the audio side of things there are really impressive.

                        01:24.054 –> 01:27.036

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing makes me more nervous than other team will turn up part way through.

                        01:27.476 –> 01:31.179

                        [SPEAKER_01]: No, but they did absolutely brilliantly and really cool.

                        01:31.219 –> 01:35.203

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So huge thank you to Babs and her team for being so quiet.

                        01:35.643 –> 01:36.684

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So what are we going to be talking about?

                        01:36.784 –> 01:40.227

                        [SPEAKER_01]: We’re going to be talking about how she runs the team.

                        01:40.247 –> 01:42.849

                        [SPEAKER_01]: We’re going to be talking about the purpose that drives through their business.

                        01:42.929 –> 01:47.453

                        [SPEAKER_01]: How they’ve been trying to build the same customer experience online as they have offline.

                        01:47.933 –> 01:56.118

                        [SPEAKER_01]: We will be talking about product provenance, running services as well as physical products, lots of cool stuff in this episode.

                        01:56.178 –> 01:58.919

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I think you’re going to enjoy it because I thoroughly enjoyed recording it.

                        01:59.439 –> 02:05.803

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Please listen to the end though so you don’t miss out on my guest top tips which are very good and my take on this episode.

                        02:12.003 –> 02:13.924

                        [SPEAKER_01]: and now to introduce our special guest.

                        02:14.344 –> 02:25.231

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Babs Noel is the ringleader at a Lara Jewelry, sellers of artisanal eco-conscious fine jewelry both designed in house and supplied by renowned designers as well.

                        02:25.651 –> 02:36.197

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Founded in two thousand and four, they now sell via their physical retail store, a tellier which is by appointment only at special events and via their Shopify

                        02:36.317 –> 02:36.637

                        [SPEAKER_01]: store.

                        02:37.138 –> 02:50.487

                        [SPEAKER_01]: In total, the company does two point nine million dollars a year with thirteen percent year on year growth and the e-commerce store is booming, seeing a hundred and thirty eight percent year on year growth as we record.

                        02:50.587 –> 02:51.488

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Babs.

                        02:52.008 –> 02:54.050

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, good morning.

                        02:54.550 –> 02:56.892

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Very cool to have you on the show.

                        02:56.912 –> 02:58.833

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I love a bit of jewelry chat.

                        02:59.173 –> 03:01.835

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I love a bit of e-commerce chat, so very excited to have you here.

                        03:01.895 –> 03:04.317

                        [SPEAKER_01]: How did you end up in the world of e-commerce?

                        03:05.520 –> 03:08.983

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Originally, prior to moving to where I am now, I lived in Denver.

                        03:09.884 –> 03:16.970

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I had two customers who had built the back end of the Universal Studios website.

                        03:17.450 –> 03:17.690

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

                        03:17.951 –> 03:19.892

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And so this was in two thousand two.

                        03:20.753 –> 03:24.556

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And they were just enamored with me and the store I had there.

                        03:24.916 –> 03:29.540

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And so they gifted me, which was very, very expensive at the time.

                        03:29.580 –> 03:30.962

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And it was very much a one-off.

                        03:31.682 –> 03:49.917

                        [SPEAKER_00]: a back end, and so I actually had a very, very early, you know, O-II sounds really, really didn’t mean e-commerce store, and it ran for a couple of years, and then I moved here, and I had a lot of other things to take up my time than that.

                        03:50.497 –> 04:03.147

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So then I would say I really, after I moved to Boseman in two thousand four, I really had more of a brochure site for a number of years, but a lot of flash, you know.

                        04:05.268 –> 04:10.012

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I started, I started up again in two thousand fifteen.

                        04:10.072 –> 04:17.037

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I would say an earnest in twenty eighteen and in its current incarnation it was more like twenty twenty.

                        04:17.497 –> 04:18.178

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I managed to

                        04:19.819 –> 04:23.483

                        [SPEAKER_00]: upgrade my site just in time for the pandemic.

                        04:23.543 –> 04:25.365

                        [SPEAKER_00]: It was complete.

                        04:26.006 –> 04:33.314

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Just that’s when I happened to decide to do it and pandemic hit and that new site was up and running in April of that year.

                        04:33.414 –> 04:37.518

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, literally to the wire of to the wire.

                        04:37.538 –> 04:37.899

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I know idea.

                        04:37.939 –> 04:38.079

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

                        04:40.321 –> 04:41.662

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Fate can be a great thing.

                        04:42.103 –> 04:53.111

                        [SPEAKER_01]: For our younger listeners, Flash just in case what we wanted, what we were laughing, Flash created the most beautiful websites, but they were completely nightmareish for on every other front.

                        04:54.132 –> 04:55.914

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Thank goodness that one disappeared.

                        04:57.014 –> 04:59.937

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So you dabble back in two thousand and two.

                        05:00.157 –> 05:01.538

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Then you did more of a brochure.

                        05:01.718 –> 05:07.683

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Then you luckily put it all together for the pandemic, just in time for the pandemic on the Shopify store.

                        05:08.747 –> 05:12.788

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Why did you feel it was worth getting back into the commas game?

                        05:13.968 –> 05:21.749

                        [SPEAKER_00]: At that point, since I live in a tourist heavy area where the Boseman is kind of the gateway to Yellowstone National Park.

                        05:22.989 –> 05:28.210

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And we have visitors here literally from every corner of the globe.

                        05:29.251 –> 05:36.852

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And once you start seeing that what you’re carrying in your physical store has that broad of an appeal

                        05:38.377 –> 05:43.840

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Initially, my thought was, well, it would be great if I could keep the momentum going with these people.

                        05:43.980 –> 05:45.201

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was like, well, wait a minute.

                        05:45.281 –> 05:46.982

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, what it’s telling me is that

                        05:48.104 –> 05:53.728

                        [SPEAKER_00]: There’s people from all over the world looking for things like this that haven’t been to this store.

                        05:54.469 –> 06:12.703

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And so my thought on it was, since I am super passionate about jewelry being made eco-consciously, and I have been engaged in that effort since nineteen eighty five when everyone thought it was the weirdest thing that I cared about it.

                        06:13.564 –> 06:17.508

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the eighties was just all flash and not a lot of substance.

                        06:17.568 –> 06:22.833

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I was worrying about where were the diamonds coming from, how was the gold being produced?

                        06:22.893 –> 06:26.457

                        [SPEAKER_00]: You know, oh my gosh, I hope the labor isn’t my small children.

                        06:26.937 –> 06:29.099

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it was cookie then.

                        06:29.200 –> 06:33.484

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But now I get to look back and say, hey, I was a real leader in this.

                        06:34.124 –> 06:37.147

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I just knew that if I could get

                        06:37.948 –> 06:53.593

                        [SPEAKER_00]: these products that I have so carefully either made or curated into the hands of more people that is literally one way to help in the entire endeavor of making jewelry more eco-friendly and more sustainable.

                        06:54.394 –> 06:57.715

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So I just figured any commerce store was the way to do that.

                        06:58.669 –> 07:01.170

                        [SPEAKER_01]: That’s one of the best reasons for embracing e-commerce.

                        07:01.210 –> 07:04.210

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I think I’ve ever heard so many bits and pieces coming into the mix there.

                        07:04.290 –> 07:07.551

                        [SPEAKER_01]: And I definitely want to get into that sustainability bit a little bit later.

                        07:07.651 –> 07:11.372

                        [SPEAKER_01]: First off though, let’s cover off some of the basics of the business as it is now for the audience.

                        07:11.392 –> 07:15.093

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So you’re based in America, you’re selling globally.

                        07:15.573 –> 07:19.834

                        [SPEAKER_01]: The product, all I’ve said about it so far is that it’s eco-conscious fine jewelry.

                        07:20.474 –> 07:28.276

                        [SPEAKER_01]: You’re fairly high price point and you’re your mainly around, would it be fair to say higher end materials with your jewelry?

                        07:29.196 –> 07:30.277

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.

                        07:30.457 –> 07:34.198

                        [SPEAKER_00]: We actually are our range is pretty broad.

                        07:34.258 –> 07:42.641

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I literally have things and I think they’re even on the website in the forty fifty dollar range, but I still put them through the same scrutiny.

                        07:43.102 –> 07:48.824

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So, but yes, our average order value is over sixteen hundred dollars.

                        07:49.804 –> 07:59.668

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, we’re definitely a lot more in gold, platinum, diamonds, a lot of Montana sapphires because they are fair trade naturally.

                        07:59.788 –> 08:02.109

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So that’s a big deal and they’re from here.

                        08:02.329 –> 08:06.091

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So that’s, they’re starting to gain a lot of traction all over the world.

                        08:06.231 –> 08:07.752

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So we’re excited about that.

                        08:08.132 –> 08:08.352

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

                        08:09.092 –> 08:12.114

                        [SPEAKER_01]: And you get to use a local resource as well, which is kind of cool.

                        08:12.154 –> 08:12.514

                        [SPEAKER_00]: We do.

                        08:12.854 –> 08:13.074

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

                        08:13.934 –> 08:17.396

                        [SPEAKER_01]: You can’t often, I feel like you can’t often say that in jewelry in the West.

                        08:18.130 –> 08:19.732

                        [SPEAKER_00]: You’re one hundred percent right.

                        08:20.172 –> 08:25.957

                        [SPEAKER_00]: There’s almost every state in the fifty states that all have like a state gem.

                        08:27.173 –> 08:32.394

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But it would be a gem that if you went to somewhere another state, they’d be like, I don’t want that.

                        08:32.534 –> 08:42.157

                        [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it’s more of a, it’s somewhat gimmicky, kitschy, maybe, you know, but not generally considered something fine.

                        08:42.377 –> 08:52.900

                        [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like Maine has termileens, but Montana is the only place in the union that produces a truly durable gem like Sapphire in gem quality.

                        08:53.220 –> 08:53.360

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So,

                        08:53.880 –> 08:54.340

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Nice.

                        08:54.481 –> 08:54.821

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

                        08:54.861 –> 08:56.742

                        [SPEAKER_01]: And then what does the team look like?

                        08:56.802 –> 09:02.747

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, across the whole business, because you’re doing production and design right the way through to dispatch.

                        09:02.787 –> 09:04.528

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So what does the team look like?

                        09:04.648 –> 09:04.988

                        [SPEAKER_00]: All right.

                        09:05.048 –> 09:06.610

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So there’s twelve of us.

                        09:07.110 –> 09:10.653

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So two of them do strictly metal smithing.

                        09:11.917 –> 09:23.845

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And then we do have other people on the team who do smaller tasks involving repair and just some smaller things in terms of production or repair.

                        09:24.866 –> 09:33.631

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And everyone on staff with the exception of the two full-time metal smits are doing something on the website.

                        09:33.992 –> 09:38.614

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But they’re also doing your typical brick and mortar type of work.

                        09:38.655 –> 09:39.995

                        [SPEAKER_00]: We’re waiting on customers.

                        09:41.096 –> 09:42.557

                        [SPEAKER_00]: greeting doing all that.

                        09:43.117 –> 10:02.010

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So pretty much everyone is involved with product photography, writing descriptions, categorizing things which is super important for jewelry, filling the orders, customer service because we just have our channels open all day long when we’re here.

                        10:02.230 –> 10:10.075

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So via chat, via text, phone, email, we’re doing that all day long and all of us do that.

                        10:10.695 –> 10:19.278

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So what was your rationale to not have a web team and a store team, but to have everyone involved in every element?

                        10:20.358 –> 10:25.220

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Well, jewelry in general, but I think very specifically artisanal jewelry.

                        10:25.540 –> 10:28.901

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So our expression at the store is no McJewelry.

                        10:29.041 –> 10:33.083

                        [SPEAKER_00]: That’s what I’m not really supposed to use that.

                        10:34.703 –> 10:37.844

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So you know, we won’t tell the lawyers it’s fine.

                        10:37.864 –> 10:38.744

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

                        10:40.485 –> 10:45.128

                        [SPEAKER_00]: is that there is a true story in it because there’s a human behind it.

                        10:45.308 –> 10:48.349

                        [SPEAKER_00]: It’s none of this is corporately made at all.

                        10:49.210 –> 10:58.715

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And there is so much that I can’t translate to a person who doesn’t have their literal fingers on the product.

                        11:00.182 –> 11:14.885

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So it never really crossed my mind, because I knew I would need to have people in store to do the work, the way I want it done, and with them touching the product, I flat out don’t ever room for more here, teeny tiny place.

                        11:15.585 –> 11:20.806

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So instead I wrapped it into the general running of the business.

                        11:21.807 –> 11:28.048

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I think what has happened is definitely during our interview process,

                        11:28.989 –> 11:31.525

                        [SPEAKER_00]: If someone has previous retail experience,

                        11:32.422 –> 11:38.627

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I’ll tell them if you’re used to standing around and doing a lot of nothing, you’re going to hate this job.

                        11:39.188 –> 11:44.752

                        [SPEAKER_00]: We are always wearing a lot of hats and what’s happened is I’ve reached stasis.

                        11:45.272 –> 11:51.117

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I end up attracting people to this job that don’t like to lack for things to do.

                        11:51.137 –> 11:59.984

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I attract people who want to be busy and want to increase their skills and people who really do like to just sit

                        12:00.890 –> 12:04.471

                        [SPEAKER_00]: they don’t, they don’t show up, so it’s worked out pretty well.

                        12:05.311 –> 12:26.797

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I love how that’s both say, you know, like product driven decision-making, but also mentality and culture driven decision-making as well, because it’s, I imagine to some extent, it’s a little bit easier to keep a cohesive team when everyone’s doing all the same stuff, you know, there’s not, why did they get to sit in the backwriting copy all day?

                        12:27.157 –> 12:28.458

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn’t really occur.

                        12:29.298 –> 12:29.498

                        [SPEAKER_00]: No.

                        12:30.018 –> 12:32.720

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And we definitely, I’ll hear conversations amongst them.

                        12:32.780 –> 12:34.781

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, can I do that?

                        12:35.221 –> 12:36.822

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Can we swap?

                        12:37.202 –> 12:37.983

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I’m all for it.

                        12:38.523 –> 12:40.304

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Find your happy in my place.

                        12:40.404 –> 12:40.924

                        [SPEAKER_00]: That’s great.

                        12:41.404 –> 12:44.106

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I get some one thing I need to mention is regarding marketing.

                        12:44.346 –> 12:49.188

                        [SPEAKER_00]: There’s basically three of us that do everything regarding the marketing of the website.

                        12:49.208 –> 12:50.489

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So I have a marketing manager.

                        12:50.909 –> 12:51.710

                        [SPEAKER_00]: She’s off site.

                        12:51.810 –> 12:52.950

                        [SPEAKER_00]: She used to live here, though.

                        12:53.050 –> 12:57.373

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So she knows the ethos of the store, which matters to me.

                        12:58.193 –> 13:01.474

                        [SPEAKER_00]: and myself and then my manager, Shantel.

                        13:01.734 –> 13:03.474

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So she also is on that team.

                        13:03.614 –> 13:17.038

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So we execute, we kind of do the strategy and we have a outside team that does email flows and we have an outside team that guides us on SEO.

                        13:17.138 –> 13:25.280

                        [SPEAKER_00]: They do some of our SEO work but then the main thing they do is assign us things to do so we can do it in our own voice.

                        13:26.108 –> 13:30.070

                        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s very easy to spend a lot of time on SEO without doing the things you should do.

                        13:30.550 –> 13:35.112

                        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s kind of like, you know, or trying to teach your SEO agency how to write the copyright.

                        13:35.693 –> 13:38.954

                        [SPEAKER_01]: If you get them to do the strategy and tell you what to do, then you execute.

                        13:39.074 –> 13:41.275

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Seems like a pretty good way of going about it to me.

                        13:41.576 –> 13:44.377

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I just need to buy more hours in the day, but that’s okay.

                        13:46.109 –> 13:48.090

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we don’t, we all, don’t, we all.

                        13:49.050 –> 13:56.632

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you balance focus between the retail’s physical retail space and the online world?

                        13:56.732 –> 14:00.792

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Because I imagine it, as you’re talking to me now, you’re sat in the back of the retail space.

                        14:00.813 –> 14:04.913

                        [SPEAKER_01]: We’ve just said, you know, the team are there doing the online task as well as the offline tasks.

                        14:05.554 –> 14:10.575

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So therefore, visually around you, the physical space, the physical retail space is there all the time.

                        14:10.615 –> 14:15.456

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you balance it so you’re getting the focus right between the two sales channels?

                        14:16.497 –> 14:27.256

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, I imagine as opposed to it being that I have some sort of actual approach to the balance is I go where I needed

                        14:28.305 –> 14:38.754

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So obviously if we’ve just seen an online order come through and we have a whole bunch of people walk in the store, I call it that a bus opens up.

                        14:39.255 –> 14:46.961

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Because sometimes that’s what it feels like in brick and mortar, you’ll have a law with literally zero customers, then you’ll have fifteen people in the store.

                        14:47.742 –> 14:49.343

                        [SPEAKER_00]: and for staff to help them.

                        14:49.903 –> 14:53.665

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So some of it is dictated from outside of me.

                        14:54.325 –> 15:03.290

                        [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that I have maintained my sanity means I guess I’m okay with this at this time.

                        15:03.870 –> 15:13.035

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I would imagine that if it got to the point where all of us were saying, okay, this is just beyond the pale we cannot possibly execute anymore, that would be time to hire.

                        15:14.035 –> 15:17.996

                        [SPEAKER_00]: and then I wouldn’t need to look out where I was going to put them.

                        15:19.077 –> 15:29.280

                        [SPEAKER_01]: That makes sense, because sometimes it’s, if you’ve not got the customers appearing, then you can go right choose day and Wednesday, I will spend working on this and Thursday and Friday will spend working on this.

                        15:29.521 –> 15:35.883

                        [SPEAKER_01]: But when you’re in that retail space, there is so little opportunity to do that.

                        15:36.643 –> 15:37.323

                        [SPEAKER_00]: That is correct.

                        15:37.383 –> 15:41.384

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what I do is very much dictated by the warm bodies for sure.

                        15:42.204 –> 15:53.647

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But obviously, if I’m engaged in a virtual appointment with someone, that is regarded here with as much, it has complete sanctity.

                        15:54.147 –> 16:00.909

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So that’s the same as if someone came in the store and had an appointment with me that they had set for an in-person appointment.

                        16:01.029 –> 16:06.210

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So we can get into a pickle from time to time with not enough

                        16:07.251 –> 16:13.736

                        [SPEAKER_00]: You know, folks to go around, but it’s rare enough that I can’t recall the last time, so I think we’re all right for now.

                        16:13.756 –> 16:15.098

                        [SPEAKER_01]: That makes sense.

                        16:15.198 –> 16:26.027

                        [SPEAKER_01]: And you mentioned that the individual one-on-one consultations, because we’ve only really mentioned the physical products so far, but you do have a number of services you’re offering people as well.

                        16:26.047 –> 16:28.670

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So can you just explain a quick bit about those, please?

                        16:29.502 –> 16:49.990

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, one of the things I really was hoping to do with e-commerce and, you know, bit by bit we’re figuring it out is we would love to emulate what we have here in the store in terms of appointments, which I do things regarding custom work.

                        16:50.010 –> 16:55.392

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So virtual custom appointments, we can do bridal styling, you know, people trying to figure out what to wear with their

                        16:55.552 –> 17:01.119

                        [SPEAKER_00]: wedding dress because it is kind of a slightly special day and you’re wearing a lot more stuff than you usually do.

                        17:01.139 –> 17:10.049

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I’ll do antique reproduction so if you have a very very old piece but it has reached the end of its useful life.

                        17:11.058 –> 17:12.360

                        [SPEAKER_00]: We can talk about okay.

                        17:12.660 –> 17:23.714

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yes, I’m going to go ahead and reproduce this, but just so you know, it’s going to look like this piece did when it was new, not like this piece right before it completely came undone.

                        17:24.355 –> 17:26.697

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So I can’t really do appraisals.

                        17:27.789 –> 17:31.391

                        [SPEAKER_00]: long distance, but we can guide people on things like repairs.

                        17:32.012 –> 17:38.696

                        [SPEAKER_00]: As long as they have a good enough camera so they can show us what’s going on, we can sometimes diagnose that way.

                        17:38.876 –> 17:55.626

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, there’s quite a bit that we can do and since custom work is kind of a cornerstone of our brick and mortar, I thought it was important because many people don’t have a custom jeweler in their town in the States, especially if they’re living somewhere smaller.

                        17:56.627 –> 18:03.570

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So, because the craft is, we don’t have as many people doing the craft as we need, frankly.

                        18:03.710 –> 18:05.811

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So, especially for something like one-offs.

                        18:06.071 –> 18:11.513

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So, but I love meeting people from all over and helping them with their projects.

                        18:12.153 –> 18:12.573

                        [SPEAKER_00]: It’s great.

                        18:12.713 –> 18:13.313

                        [SPEAKER_00]: It’s a lot of fun.

                        18:14.074 –> 18:24.878

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I find it so cool that you are trying to mirror the same services and the same experience online that people get in the physical store, because so often when someone’s running a single store business,

                        18:25.818 –> 18:31.382

                        [SPEAKER_01]: and they launch an online site, they online site kind of gets forgotten about and it’s just like, we’ll put the products up and it’ll be fine.

                        18:32.543 –> 18:47.733

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas your approach seems a lot more all encompassing and that we want to make sure people get the same experience overuse word and e-commerce, but the same experience whether they’re in store or they’re on in the online space.

                        18:48.559 –> 18:56.564

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is definitely more holistic and hence the way that we use staff makes probably makes more sense then.

                        18:56.665 –> 19:02.969

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, we’ll do virtual shopping tours because for some people, particularly people who are a wee bit older.

                        19:04.064 –> 19:11.034

                        [SPEAKER_00]: the clicking and the looking and the filters and the thing, you know, it just, it kind of takes all the fun out of it.

                        19:11.615 –> 19:19.986

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And so we’re totally happy to send appointment and do something via FaceTime just in the store showing them what’s in the cases.

                        19:20.899 –> 19:26.165

                        [SPEAKER_01]: That’s such an obvious thing to do, but somewhat mind-blowing at the same time.

                        19:28.468 –> 19:33.354

                        [SPEAKER_01]: How strange that a customer might want to see the jewelry and me walk around the store, it’s kind of obvious.

                        19:34.787 –> 19:36.869

                        [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, but somewhat mind-blowing.

                        19:38.050 –> 19:51.441

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Now you mentioned about how purpose-driven you’ve been right since the eighties the beginning of your jewelry career about creating a more sustainable ethical jewelry and kind of educating the customers as well.

                        19:52.682 –> 19:59.890

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I think personally, I think we’re in a space where people still aren’t that aware of the ethics of the production of their jewelry.

                        20:00.310 –> 20:05.115

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Is it moved certainly not as much as people are becoming aware in the clothing fashion space?

                        20:05.675 –> 20:11.341

                        [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like in jewelry, we know blood diamonds are bad, but the rest of the mix we seem to have forgotten about.

                        20:11.801 –> 20:12.943

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Do you find that with customers?

                        20:14.078 –> 20:22.747

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I do find it with a certain number of customers because of course we have our devotees who are like they could preach it probably better than I can ultimately.

                        20:23.307 –> 20:28.292

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But no, I’ll encounter people all the time that still have a mindset of

                        20:29.498 –> 20:36.184

                        [SPEAKER_00]: that it’s precious materials and so I’m trying to get them for as little money as I can.

                        20:36.204 –> 20:48.775

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But it turns out that they actually have more refined taste and that that can be kind of the the opening for me is if they are looking for something that they would consider more

                        20:50.056 –> 20:51.758

                        [SPEAKER_00]: unique, a little more special.

                        20:52.098 –> 20:55.160

                        [SPEAKER_00]: We do a lot of one of a kind, people love that idea.

                        20:55.180 –> 21:05.727

                        [SPEAKER_00]: The very artisanal and one of a kind nature allows us to open the door on the sustainability part of it.

                        21:06.287 –> 21:11.430

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we have, we’ve definitely crossed some sort of threshold.

                        21:12.351 –> 21:34.385

                        [SPEAKER_00]: because to tutelight on horn, we were invited to be the subject of a short-form documentary that will be coming out on US public television over the next year and it’s an episodic show on public television called Empowered with Meg Ryan and we were chosen because of

                        21:35.726 –> 21:38.008

                        [SPEAKER_00]: producing ethically source jewelry.

                        21:38.708 –> 21:48.655

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So certainly there are some powers that be that recognize that, okay, we managed to do it with fast fashion, at least to get some people to maybe think twice.

                        21:49.870 –> 21:53.272

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that doesn’t mean that always buy that way.

                        21:53.452 –> 21:56.374

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But hey, doing it in increments is fine, right?

                        21:56.715 –> 22:03.039

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I don’t wherever going to be able to flip the switch and everybody’s doing everything very sustainably.

                        22:03.119 –> 22:06.381

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But doing it just bit by bit is fine with me.

                        22:06.421 –> 22:10.003

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is now happening with the jewelry business.

                        22:10.463 –> 22:15.287

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And it’s happening to the jewelry business to the extent that I see brands

                        22:15.967 –> 22:21.091

                        [SPEAKER_00]: throwing the ethical thing on their website and throwing eco-conscious on their website.

                        22:21.511 –> 22:27.015

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I’m like, but really, and you know, I’ll often know where those products are coming from.

                        22:27.035 –> 22:30.678

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I’ll be like, not so much, just using it as a word.

                        22:30.758 –> 22:32.319

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And I use it as a mantra.

                        22:32.839 –> 22:33.099

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So.

                        22:33.500 –> 22:39.104

                        [SPEAKER_01]: But like you say, it is progress, at least they think they need to use the word, even if they’re not using it as well as they should do.

                        22:39.764 –> 22:40.265

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

                        22:40.385 –> 22:41.826

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I do consider that progress.

                        22:41.966 –> 22:49.131

                        [SPEAKER_00]: If they think it’s something that should be cared about even if maybe they’re not caring about it through their direct actions, that’s something.

                        22:49.451 –> 22:57.597

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Still, one of the most ethical things a person can do regarding jewelry that is often not available to them because there’s jewelers who won’t do this.

                        22:58.457 –> 23:04.942

                        [SPEAKER_00]: is we will reuse your existing materials, your stones, your found objects.

                        23:05.883 –> 23:16.912

                        [SPEAKER_00]: We have an amazing diamond cutter who can fix a broken diamond, an amazing lapidaris to repolish a colored stone, and we can refine your metal to reuse it.

                        23:17.472 –> 23:21.613

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of jewelers don’t want to set stones that they didn’t sell.

                        23:21.633 –> 23:26.055

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I’m not exactly sure why, probably because of the pressure of the sentimentality.

                        23:26.675 –> 23:29.496

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But I just manage people’s expectations on the front end.

                        23:29.916 –> 23:31.497

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Things can go wrong.

                        23:32.517 –> 23:36.798

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And trust me when I say, your stone is going to be handled with the greatest of care.

                        23:37.478 –> 23:41.160

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But even with the greatest of care, things can still go wrong.

                        23:41.440 –> 23:45.081

                        [SPEAKER_00]: It’s just managing expectations, which we have to do in the gallery all the time.

                        23:47.665 –> 23:52.449

                        [SPEAKER_02]: Ecommerce Masterplan is supported by some of the greatest companies in the Ecommerce sector.

                        23:52.589 –> 24:00.695

                        [SPEAKER_02]: Here’s a reminder of who they are.

                        24:00.876 –> 24:02.737

                        [SPEAKER_02]: It’s time for the top tips round.

                        24:05.379 –> 24:10.904

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I love this section because it gives me an honest to some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level.

                        24:10.964 –> 24:12.925

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Babs are you ready for the top tips?

                        24:13.666 –> 24:15.007

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I am ready for top tips.

                        24:15.420 –> 24:17.121

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome, okay, the book top tip.

                        24:17.221 –> 24:23.946

                        [SPEAKER_01]: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

                        24:25.007 –> 24:30.131

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I would recommend let my people go surfing by Yvonne Schwenar.

                        24:30.991 –> 24:35.154

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So for those who don’t know, he was the founder of Patagonia.

                        24:35.715 –> 24:40.959

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So this story has a lot to do with purpose, environment, craftsmanship,

                        24:41.819 –> 24:47.043

                        [SPEAKER_00]: It’s a celebration of companies that choose to be great instead of being big.

                        24:47.723 –> 24:50.925

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Value-driven companies, community-focused businesses.

                        24:51.866 –> 24:56.609

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I like to think that if Patagonia were a jewelry store, it would probably look like a lot.

                        24:59.202 –> 25:03.403

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I love that it’s no surprise at all that you would be recommending that book.

                        25:03.503 –> 25:06.803

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I have to say very, very on message.

                        25:07.384 –> 25:13.485

                        [SPEAKER_01]: The traffic top tip, which marketing method do you either prize above all others or think doesn’t get the press it deserves?

                        25:14.365 –> 25:25.027

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what we prize the most and from what gives us the greatest results are really, finally tuned, highly segmented email flows.

                        25:26.725 –> 25:38.518

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And we also do a long-term nurture that is very big surprise, educational in nature about jewelry and jewelry care, that seems to do really well for us.

                        25:38.899 –> 25:47.588

                        [SPEAKER_00]: What we are pricing that we haven’t yet done, because I want to do it the right way, is a referral program.

                        25:48.490 –> 26:00.374

                        [SPEAKER_00]: because in jewelry general, like physical, you know, with the brick and mortar store, referrals, we do lots of advertising, but referrals are your strongest type of marketing.

                        26:00.414 –> 26:04.415

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So we’d like to, that’s something we’re looking forward to doing soon.

                        26:05.175 –> 26:11.337

                        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s a tricky to get that right into, in the online space, and to be confident in what happens.

                        26:11.377 –> 26:19.138

                        [SPEAKER_01]: There’s loads of different routes you can do, like pure referrals, loyalty programs, VIP programs, there’s almost as small as board to pick from.

                        26:19.198 –> 26:22.279

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So I love the fact you’re taking your time to find the route that works.

                        26:23.139 –> 26:33.082

                        [SPEAKER_01]: The tool-top tip, maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plugin, a phone app, or just a way of working, is the record little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day.

                        26:33.988 –> 26:35.429

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So this is a teeny tiny thing.

                        26:35.449 –> 26:37.030

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I hope lots of people are using it.

                        26:37.270 –> 26:42.673

                        [SPEAKER_00]: We use the heck out of bitaly, just to be able to track every single blessed thing we do.

                        26:42.833 –> 26:44.173

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So that’s a teeny, we need one.

                        26:44.894 –> 26:53.799

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And my other one would be, I would recommend people to take the time and it is considerable, but to take the time to season.

                        26:55.102 –> 27:00.727

                        [SPEAKER_00]: a chat GPT or whatever your AI thing is into to learn your company voice.

                        27:01.167 –> 27:07.653

                        [SPEAKER_00]: This brings a lot of efficiency and consistent tone to the various parts of the website.

                        27:07.753 –> 27:09.195

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I don’t, right?

                        27:09.815 –> 27:11.577

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But we end up having consistency.

                        27:12.037 –> 27:13.678

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So I would highly recommend doing that.

                        27:13.739 –> 27:17.382

                        [SPEAKER_00]: It’s not as quick as you’d think, but I would highly recommend it.

                        27:18.225 –> 27:23.487

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, quite a bit of leg work, but it’ll pay off over the coming months and years.

                        27:23.547 –> 27:24.428

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that tip.

                        27:24.528 –> 27:29.630

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the carbon top tip, what’s your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an e-commerce store?

                        27:30.872 –> 27:38.034

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So I have been buying carbon offsets for our business in general since TerraPass was founded.

                        27:38.074 –> 27:40.735

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I believe it’s a UK company in two thousand four.

                        27:41.596 –> 27:47.938

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So I would say consider that and I do it for everything from our staffs.

                        27:48.818 –> 27:59.225

                        [SPEAKER_00]: travel expense, you know, the amount that they have to luckily a lot of us are able to walk or bike to work, but and most of us are pretty close, but some do not, so that all gets calculated.

                        28:00.285 –> 28:10.492

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And so I would encourage people to do that and pick something where you feel like the dollars that you’re giving are going to something that is actually helping with your carbon footprint.

                        28:11.252 –> 28:13.392

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But definitely look at your product.

                        28:13.452 –> 28:22.314

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, obviously, I have a great ability to do that to recycle gold to use sustainable types of materials.

                        28:22.914 –> 28:24.195

                        [SPEAKER_00]: But look at your product.

                        28:24.515 –> 28:27.395

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Is it just headed towards a landfill?

                        28:27.775 –> 28:29.416

                        [SPEAKER_00]: It would be better if it weren’t.

                        28:29.936 –> 28:32.076

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Packaging is always an easy way to go.

                        28:32.856 –> 28:38.077

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And we looked at everything from our mailer bags to we just went from the top down.

                        28:38.397 –> 28:40.598

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So I strongly recommend that.

                        28:41.398 –> 28:43.739

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the question of should your product exist?

                        28:44.800 –> 28:45.780

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Is a difficult one.

                        28:46.541 –> 28:46.941

                        [SPEAKER_00]: It’s tough.

                        28:47.401 –> 28:47.902

                        [SPEAKER_01]: It’s tough.

                        28:48.382 –> 28:56.506

                        [SPEAKER_01]: But when we started caring, or you know, really putting sustainability at the front of a lot of our conversations, maybe five years ago now.

                        28:57.486 –> 29:05.030

                        [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought it would be decades before we were starting to ask the question, should your product exist?

                        29:05.491 –> 29:09.072

                        [SPEAKER_01]: But it’s actually come to pass a lot quicker than I thought it would.

                        29:10.153 –> 29:10.513

                        [SPEAKER_01]: That’s good.

                        29:10.553 –> 29:11.094

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you.

                        29:11.314 –> 29:11.874

                        [SPEAKER_01]: A little bit of good.

                        29:12.354 –> 29:13.855

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I take no credit for that.

                        29:13.975 –> 29:18.617

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I don’t think it’s lots, but we’re a small part of the, the raging stream by talking about it.

                        29:18.717 –> 29:19.898

                        [SPEAKER_00]: You’re, you’re part of it.

                        29:19.998 –> 29:20.318

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

                        29:20.698 –> 29:21.579

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, team Earth.

                        29:21.779 –> 29:22.759

                        [SPEAKER_00]: We, yeah.

                        29:24.820 –> 29:27.101

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Well, like, that was before we say goodbye.

                        29:27.161 –> 29:31.443

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Could you please let the listeners know where they can find you and your business on the web and social media?

                        29:31.924 –> 29:32.404

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

                        29:33.104 –> 29:34.285

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I’m at allarajulri.com.

                        29:36.946 –> 29:40.131

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Our Instagram is also a large jewelry, just one word.

                        29:40.391 –> 29:43.295

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Our Facebook’s just a large jewelry, one word.

                        29:43.976 –> 29:48.582

                        [SPEAKER_01]: And perhaps I believe you’ve got a very special offer for a very special audience.

                        29:49.415 –> 29:49.775

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I do.

                        29:50.656 –> 30:00.322

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I invite you to partake in a free one hour custom jewelry design consultation done virtually.

                        30:00.342 –> 30:03.645

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And it’s going to be very easy for you to get to.

                        30:03.925 –> 30:09.389

                        [SPEAKER_00]: You would just go to a largeulory.com slash master plan.

                        30:09.909 –> 30:10.690

                        [SPEAKER_00]: No code needed.

                        30:11.710 –> 30:14.032

                        [SPEAKER_00]: And normally that’s a two hundred dollar service.

                        30:14.112 –> 30:26.399

                        [SPEAKER_00]: So I hope a few people who have almost everyone does a little bag or box of nibbly little bits that are made of precious metal that can’t be used anymore, you’re wrong.

                        30:26.499 –> 30:27.359

                        [SPEAKER_00]: They can be used.

                        30:27.880 –> 30:28.700

                        [SPEAKER_00]: I’m here to use them.

                        30:29.521 –> 30:29.921

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Love it.

                        30:30.321 –> 30:35.824

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome opportunity to create some brilliant jewelry and to get some recycling done at the same time.

                        30:38.332 –> 30:41.294

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Babs, I have thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you.

                        30:41.334 –> 30:46.076

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for coming on the Commerce Master Plan podcast and sharing so much of your insights with us.

                        30:46.116 –> 30:47.217

                        [SPEAKER_01]: We really appreciate it.

                        30:47.637 –> 30:49.478

                        [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Miss Chloe.

                        30:49.618 –> 30:50.699

                        [SPEAKER_00]: You have a good rest of your day.

                        30:56.717 –> 31:12.293

                        [SPEAKER_01]: real treats to get to chat with Barb’s there and explore a business which is in some ways a tiny business, one store, one website, but is doing huge turnover and has seen huge growth online in a sector that is notoriously difficult.

                        31:12.793 –> 31:15.035

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Jewelry and a high price point, Jewelry.

                        31:15.076 –> 31:17.678

                        [SPEAKER_01]: We’re talking four figures here people on their AOV.

                        31:18.779 –> 31:26.603

                        [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, as you listen to Bab’s chatting, you can see why it is that they are succeeding in the way they are.

                        31:26.683 –> 31:32.666

                        [SPEAKER_01]: They have such clear focus and purpose of what they’re delivering for their customers.

                        31:33.246 –> 31:39.910

                        [SPEAKER_01]: And such a clear and straightforward, quite frankly, approached building the right experience for those customers.

                        31:40.510 –> 31:42.991

                        [SPEAKER_01]: super excited to see what they do in the coming years.

                        31:43.131 –> 31:50.555

                        [SPEAKER_01]: And that documentary, the TV documentary that’s coming up with Meg Ryan, that is clearly going to be a really impressive result for them.

                        31:50.595 –> 31:59.660

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I should have thought, you can get your hands on our notes from this episode, including those top tips and the links to what we mentioned by heading over to ecommercemasterpland.com.

                        32:00.180 –> 32:12.046

                        [SPEAKER_01]: You can also use our director episode short links, just put ECMP.info for the number of this episode into the URL bar, and you’ll be redirected straight to the right page of the site.

                        32:12.686 –> 32:19.930

                        [SPEAKER_01]: When you get to the website, you can also add yourself to our email list, so you don’t miss out on any of the other things I share to help you improve your business.

                        32:20.970 –> 32:28.894

                        [SPEAKER_01]: If you liked this episode and you want more on jewellery, then go and check out episode three hundred and fifty-five.

                        32:28.914 –> 32:32.055

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you’re going to scroll back a little way for this, but trust me, it will be worth it.

                        32:32.556 –> 32:37.158

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Where I am talking to another super successful jewellery designer Larissa Loden.

                        32:37.758 –> 32:43.841

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Go and have a listen to that if you’re in the jewellery space, it will give you even more good ideas for your business’s future.

                        32:44.421 –> 32:48.643

                        [SPEAKER_01]: And if you want to hear more Shopify stories, then go to ECMP.info for us.

                        32:48.703 –> 32:54.367

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I shopify to find all the many many Shopify stories we have there for you.

                        32:55.267 –> 32:59.649

                        [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning into this and every episode that you do of the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

                        32:59.730 –> 33:09.395

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help Ecommerce business owners like you to succeed and thrive with your businesses, including progressing along the path to net zero.

                        33:09.895 –> 33:14.777

                        [SPEAKER_01]: So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the Ecommerce Master Plan podcast.

                        33:15.157 –> 33:17.878

                        [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you have a great week and don’t forget to keep optimizing.

                        34 min

                      About eCommerce Master Plan

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                      Trying to work out how to acquire more customers? Need to improve customer retention? Or just looking for some reassurance you’re on the right track? That’s what the eCommerce MasterPlan is here for.