On the Lean Out podcast, we’ve talked a lot about the haves and the have nots. Our guest today has another way of thinking about this: he calls it the front row of America and the back row. The front row is in power; it values education, credentials, and consumerism. But the back row values different things – things like family, faith, and place. Chris Arnade is a writer and photographer who covers poverty and addiction. He’s the author of Dignity: Seeking Respect in Back Row America. His new project is walking the world and documenting it on Substack – and he’s recently roamed the streets of Ukraine. He’s here today to talk about the strange, surreal moment we are in, and how the back row/front row tensions play into it. Chris Arnade is our guest, today on Lean Out.

You can find Tara Henley on Twitter at @TaraRHenley, and on Substack at tarahenley.substack.com