Heidi and Ellen talk to Jen and Michelle. Jen is a mom of 3 and is about to switch careers from something very creative (and her dream job) to one in computer science that is more structured and linear.  She wonders about the best way to transition and how to maintain some of the creative energy in her very busy life.  Michelle has been a nurse for the past 10 years and has not liked her work from the very beginning.  She is looking for a change and is thinking of real estate. She is not sure if this is the right move for her, is fearing failure and asks if such a major career shift is right for her.  Ellen and Heidi also talk about the new season of ‘Ted Lasso’, the HBO series ‘Catch and Kill: The Podcast Tapes’ and the book 'Big Friendship: How We Keep Each Other Close' by Aminatou Sow and Ann Friedman.