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Gun Lawyer — Episode 276 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

New Jersey felony law, accidental discharge, Second Amendment, gun rights, reckless conduct, felony dingus, legal consequences, gun ownership, national reciprocity, pro-gun advocacy, government involvement, legal defense, gun laws, gun ownership statistics, gun control.

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:17

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:19

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:20

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. New Jersey now officially has the felony Dingus law. That’s right, folks. It has to do with the criminalization of accidents. That’s it. They’ve been criminalized in New Jersey. Now let me explain why it’s the Dingus law. The reason I call it the Dingus law is that a number of years ago I was in Missouri. It was at the James Farm, Jesse and Frank James Farm. It was a great museum there. It’s a pretty cool place to visit if you’re into western history. You know, Jesse James and such is way up there of one of the fun topics to learn about. As a matter of fact, their famous bank robbery is still the record haul for any bank robbery in the U.S., ever. It was done by James and his gang. In terms of the amount of money stolen, in terms of the value of that money today, versus then, it is the record amount ever stolen.

Evan Nappen 01:41

But the thing that’s interesting to me about what happened when I was at that museum is I’m looking at all kinds of things about historical facts about Jesse James and his life and all. I’m reading some things, and it talked about “Dingus” at certain times. You know, talking about things that were going on between him and his men. And I’m like, Dingus, who’s Dingus? So, I asked one of the museum folks there, hey, who is this Dingus that they’re talking about? He goes, oh, that’s Jesse James. What do you mean Jesse James is Dingus? Who called him, you know, Dingus and lived, right? He’s like, no, no, no, no, no. His men did. His men did. What? Why? Well, you see, Jesse was apparently playing around with his gun, practicing spinning or screwing around with it, or who knows what, and he accidentally shot two of his fingers off. It was in front of his men. He shot his fingers off, two of them, and Jesse James would never use profanity. He may have been a stone cold killer, but he would not ever use profanity. So, when he shot his two fingers off, he said, Dingus! Now, I don’t know about you, but if I shot my fingers off, I’d say something a lot more than Dingus. But I guess his men fell off their horses Page – 2 – of 14

laughing, you know, and they nicknamed him Dingus. And I guess if you were one of his men, you could bust his balls and call him Dingus and get away with it.

Evan Nappen 03:36

But we call accidental discharges in my office “Dingus” cases in honor of Jesse James, of course. So, any accidental discharge is a Dingus case. Now, I once had a guy that shot himself in the hand with a Glock. And so that, of course, was a Dingus case. This was a number of years ago, and they tried to take away his firearms and his ability to be licensed under that. It wasn’t criminalized, but they did try to disenfranchise him of his gun rights. We fought it hard, and we were able to win and save his gun rights and his gun. About a year later, he shot himself in the hand again with a Sig. So, do you know what he was? He was a Double Dingus. That’s right.

Evan Nappen 04:40

Anyway, this new Dingus law, and look, accidents can happen. You can drive your car and have an accident. Accidents happen. But this Dingus law that New Jersey has passed is a felony Dingus law. It now turns accidents into a New Jersey felony. A felony level offense. It’s very important that you understand this, because now it is actually law in New Jersey, and you have to know your rights. You have to stand on your rights. Or you not only risk losing your Second Amendment rights, but you also risk becoming a felon, going to State Prison, and having your life essentially destroyed over this. Because becoming a convicted felon can dramatically affect your career, and your ability to earn a living. Your existence becomes one of a second class citizen, and not just in terms of gun rights.

Evan Nappen 05:52

So, I want to do a deep dive here into the felony Dingus law that New Jersey has now made law. And I want to make it clear so that you, my dear listeners, know what to do to protect yourself and hear it straight from me as to what you must do and how you must act. Because it will be difficult for some of you to do what I’m saying. It strikes to a certain degree against what might be your first reaction, but you have to do this. Otherwise the consequences can be dire. So, this new law that New Jersey passed, and it is officially law. It takes accidents and makes them felonies, accidents with firearms, into felony level offenses. And we’re going to take a look at how exactly that gets done. How the Legislature, in passing this law, has done it in such a bizarre way, or sneaky way, devious way, that the impact and reality of it is how I’m going to explain it.

Evan Nappen 07:13

So, the law reads, and you can read the bill that passed. It was A4976 and was approved by Murphy as one of his parting gifts on January 20 of this year. (https://pub.njleg.state.nj.us/Bills/2024/A5000/4976_R2.PDF) It says, (1.a.) For the purposes of this act, “Recklessly” shall have the same meaning as set forth in N.J.S. 2C:2-2. Now, 2-2 is where the culpability standards for New Jersey law are laid out. Culpability is the establishment of the level of what has to be demonstrated in order to prove whether you’re culpable for the commission of that offense. These fall under the general requirements of culpability, and normally, culpability has to be proven. It’s a level of proof. Often we think of culpability as needing to show purpose fully. You do something purposefully. We do something knowingly, knowingly. But recklessly and negligently can also be culpability levels in criminal law, and New Jersey is now making “Reckless” as part of this law. Page – 3 – of 14

Evan Nappen 08:56

But reckless isn’t necessarily how you might generically think of it. It’s defined in this culpability statute as follows. So, this is where “Reckless” gets defined that they’re incorporating into the new law. (N.J.S. 2C:2-2.(3)) “Recklessly. A person acts recklessly with respect to a material element of an offense when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the material element exists or will result from his conduct. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that, considering the nature and purpose of the actor’s conduct and the circumstances known to him, its disregard involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the actor’s situation. ‘Recklessness,’ or ‘with recklessness’, or equivalent terms have the same meaning.”

Evan Nappen 10:05

Now, if you’re having trouble wrapping your head around what I just said, we’re going to get back to it. But I wanted to give you that, initially, as we go through the bill, and I’m going to show you how it translates into reality under the felony Dingus law. So, New Jersey now says “reckless” is defined as what I just told you, and then they define structure. “‘Structure’ means any building, room, ship, vessel, car, vehicle, or airplane, and also means any place adapted for overnight accommodation of persons or for carrying of business therein.” So, any business establishment, any means of transport, and any room, building or ship is a structure, okay? Now the law says a person commits, oh, a disorderly person’s offense. Oh, well, that’s not a felony, Evan. That’s a disorderly person. It’s New Jersey’s version of misdemeanor. Yeah, I know that, but let’s keep reading.

Evan Nappen 11:21

Okay, folks. “A person commits a disorderly persons offense by recklessly discharging a firearm . . .” Well, you might think, why I’d never be reckless. I’d never be reckless. “. . . by recklessly discharging a firearm using live ammunition rounds . . .” So, I guess you can recklessly discharge a blank gun, but whatever. “. . . recklessly discharging a firearm using live ammunition rounds unlawfully or without a lawful purpose, except that a second conviction for such an offense constitutes a crime of the fourth degree, and a third or subsequent conviction for such an offense constitutes crime of the third degree.” So, what happens is this. It ups the degree if you have repeat offenses.

Evan Nappen 12:12

So, you say, well, look, man, if I have one problem, at least it’s just a misdemeanor, and it’s not a felony. I don’t become a felony Dingus problem in my life. Well, yeah, because here’s the next part. It says, a person who commits a violation of what I just said, subsection b., technically of this section, shall be charged with a crime of one degree higher than what ordinarily would be charged for such offense, where the violation occurs within 100 yards of an occupied structure. Whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So, in other words, if you have an accidental discharge, and that AD was done without lawful purpose, well, if it’s an accidental discharge, what was your lawful purpose for having an accident? Of course, there wasn’t one. It’s baked into the cake. There’s no accident done lost with a lawful purpose. Of course not. So, every accident now, unless you can show there was a lawful purpose to your accident, okay? Every accident done, every accidental discharge without a lawful purpose, within 100 yards of any building, room, ship, vessel, car, vehicle, airplane, place of overnight accommodation or where business is conducted, within 100 yards of any of those occupied places, that Page – 4 – of 14

makes it a felony level offense. A felony level offense. So, now you have your accidental discharge. It’s done without a lawful purpose. Now the law says you have to recklessly discharge a firearm without a lawful purpose. Remember, I told you what reckless was under the law.

Evan Nappen 14:24

Now, think about this. Let’s go back to that reckless. A person acts reckless with respect to a material element of the offense when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that a material element will result from his conduct. Oh, conscientious disregarding a risk that you could, what? Have an accidental discharge. Meaning a discharge without a lawful purpose. And the risk must be of such a nature and degree that considering the nature and purpose of the actor’s conduct and circumstances known to him. Oh, did you know you had a gun? Yeah. Did you know that when you pull the trigger of a gun, it goes bang? Yeah. Did you happen to have ammunition? Yeah. Did you check to make sure the gun was empty? Oh, well, what’s this disregard involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the actor’s situation. Aha. Gross deviation from standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe. A reasonable person checks to make sure their gun is unloaded. Were you unreasonable in having that accidental discharge because you failed to ensure that your gun wasn’t loaded?

Evan Nappen 16:18

Well, let me tell you who’s going to answer that question. Ultimately, my friends, 12 people who aren’t smart enough to avoid jury duty. That’s who’s going to answer it. Twelve persons who most likely don’t know a whole hell of a lot about guns. And even if they do, they’re not going to like the fact that you didn’t ensure that your gun was unloaded. So, this means that if you have an accidental discharge, a Dingus within 100 yards of any of those, “occupied structures”, which basically is virtually everywhere, you’re now looking at a felony charge, which will make you a convicted felon. It will cost you your gun rights throughout the entire United States, because you’d be a convicted felon. You will face criminal prosecution in New Jersey and loss of your guns and your gun license.

Evan Nappen 17:32

So, what does this mean, folks? It means, if you ever have an accidental discharge, SHUT THE F UP!!! That’s right. You do not call the police if you had an accidental issue. You don’t incriminate yourself. You don’t talk about it to anyone. They have criminalized this. You have a Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. They did not put any immunity in this law for reporting an accidental discharge. You not only have no obligation to report it, you have a specific Constitutional right now against doing it. Saying you have a right not to do it, because you have a right against self-incrimination. And they’ve made it what is a virtual, almost per se, strict liability, virtually, virtually, offense. At least, how in reality, it’s going to play out. If you have an accidental discharge within 100 yards of that structure and you didn’t have a lawful purpose, did you? Was it reasonable that you deviated from the standard of not ensuring that your gun was unloaded? You can see this felony Dingus problem here, and it now applies throughout New Jersey. Page – 5 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 19:15

One concern, though, Dad, is that. Does the law address, you know, malfunction? Because we’ve had plenty of stories, you know, from the both of the SIG 320 and / or various other pistols that do have, like, mechanical failures. Is that addressed in the law?

Evan Nappen 19:34

It’s not addressed in the law. And, you know, maybe if it was an actual SIG problem that can be proven, that it was mechanical, that that would be a defense at law here. You know that would be something where they’re not going to hold the recklessness standard to your conscious disregard of known risk. However, New Jersey has brought a suit against SIG itself for the problem with those guns. I wouldn’t put it past the Government trying to argue that you should have known the risk because you possess a SIG that’s known to have these problems, and we’re suing them over it. And how did you not know that your gun might have this problem? I mean, who knows how extreme they’ll go? I think it is conceivably a good defense, but they’re still going to fight that. I assure you.

Evan Nappen 20:37

But short of an actual mechanical defect in a gun, short of that, this law is a huge threat. It is essentially the equivalent of making, if we made every fender bender with a driver, a felony in New Jersey. You would then have a situation where you wouldn’t want to report any car accident. Because upon reporting it, you would immediately have a right against self-incrimination, and you’d be putting yourself in jeopardy of a felony. Well, this is what New Jersey has done with the felony Dingus law to New Jerseyans, and you need to know that. You’re going to have to stand firm on your rights. If you have an AD, the first thing you do is call your lawyer who understands criminal law and understands the gun laws, so that you can be advised on this. It’s critical. The risk here is great, and it will jeopardize your freedom, your livelihood, and your gun rights. You can get at least a year and a half as a maximum, if they go to just the fourth degree level with this offense. So, you’re looking at felony Dingus here.

Teddy Nappen 22:13

There’s a bit of irony. When you think about this law, I imagine just go from their perspective. Just the twisted mindset of the gun rights suppressor. In this idea, they’re trying to cut down on accidental discharges, but they’re going to go hidden because of that exact issue. It kind of goes. I remember being explained once in boxing. They did a rule change where they banned rapid punching. You know, we could do, like quick jabs, but in doing so, they required you to punch with an extended arm. They’re like, oh, we’re gonna cut down on the injuries. But it did the opposite. Because people were getting punched with an extended arm, it would cause more concussions. So, it’s just that level of almost self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s not doing anything. It causes the very harm that it meant to prevent.

Evan Nappen 22:59

It will. It will. Because now when you have this instead. Let’s say, if you have an accidental discharge, instead of investigating, seeing if it hits somebody or something, or where, when or what it did, you’re going to jeopardize yourself criminally. Now you have to stand on your rights. You’re going to have to just take the Fifth immediately and stand on your rights. Call your attorney. It’s completely criminalized, criminalized. And because of that, your criminal due process rights kick in. And we might, you know, Page – 6 – of 14

normally if they were smart, they would have had an immunity for reporting it. But they don’t. They don’t. There’s no immunity here. If you report it, you’re putting yourself in jeopardy, and you’re giving up your Fifth and Sixth amendment rights by so doing. It is a stupid law. It is not just a Dingus felony, a Dingus law. It is a law passed by Dinguses and signed by Dinguses. It is literally the felony Dingus law, and so aptly named.

Evan Nappen 24:10

Hey, on a different subject. Real quick, I just want to mention a landmark little factoid that I think you’ll find pretty cool. The U.S. has broken the firearm ownership number of 500 million. There are over 500 million privately owned firearms in the United States. Boy, that is fantastic. (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/us-civilian-gun-ownership-500-million/)

Teddy Nappen 24:49

We need to get those numbers up.

Evan Nappen 24:52

Yeah, right. We need to get those numbers up. According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, civilian gun ownership in the U.S. has surpassed the 500 million mark, reaching an estimated 506 million firearms, and the more guns means the more impossibility of banning and seizing them. There is strength in numbers. This figure is based on Federal Manufacturing and import data compiled from 1990 through 2023 using ATF records. And the estimate accounts for firearms manufactured domestically and sold, as well as firearms imported for the commercial market. It also said that there’s continued growth with the ARs in America. Since 1990, 32 million AR-type rifles have entered circulation. 32 million ARs. Talk about being in common use. 32 million. Kind of says it all. Anyway, so we’re way up there. And it says, looking specifically, by the way, at 2023, they said a total of 13,574,653 firearms were made available to the U.S. market when imports were included. So, that was that one year, 2023, over 13 million. Handguns accounted for the majority, with 8,176,000 units, followed by 3,899,000 rifles and 1,498,000 shotguns. So, this is great news. We are definitely the land of firearms, and the Second Amendment is strong in numbers. We’ve broken the 500 million mark for U.S. gun ownership.

Evan Nappen 27:23

One other quick note here that I find. A little tidbit here, and this is from militarynyi.com. Mossburg has received a new contract from the Pentagon for about $11.6 million. (https://militarnyi.com/en/news/usa-orders-mossberg-590a1-shotguns-with-custom-barrels-for-drone-interception/) It provides that they’re going to supply Mossberg 590A1 pump shotguns, which are great guns, by the way. I’m going to tell you about 590A1s in a minute. But what’s really cool about this one is that this particular shotgun is designed to combat drones. It’s made to shoot down drones. It has a 17-inch barrel with a specific configuration that’s designed for convenient placement in submarine racks. And it’s also made so that it can use special tungsten shot ammunition, tungsten shot ammo, to shoot down UAVs. And this is literally what the Government said. So, they’ve taken the 590A1s and the load, the shotgun load, is a two ounce number nine bird shot, a tungsten load. And it says it puts a large number of small tungsten pellets, creating a dense cloud ideal for hitting small targets. So, if you thought skeet shooting and trap Page – 7 – of 14

shooting was fun, how about tungsten drone shooting with Mossberg 590A1s. There you go, guys. Now we’re talking about a whole new sport.

Teddy Nappen 29:28

Do you remember Amazon delivering those packages with drones? Yeah, well, trap shooting with prizes.

Evan Nappen 29:37

Well, there you go. Trap shooting with prizes. But you know something about the 590A1, I gotta tell you. That’s really a great shotgun. And look, I have no financial interest in them. I just love that gun. That gun has a special thing about it when it comes to New Jersey. It is a pump shotgun, military spec shotgun. The 598 one is different from the 590 the a one has a thicker barrel, stronger receiver. It is a really tough shotgun, and it’s a pump shotgun. And because it’s a pump, it’s not semi auto. So, you can have a 590A1 in New Jersey. It can have a nine shot magazine in it. It can have a folding stock. It can have a pistol grip. It can have a bayonet lug, and they do have a bayonet lug. It can have all the whistles and bells on it and not be an assault firearm because it’s a pump shotgun. Only a semi-automatic shotgun falls under New Jersey’s assault firearm law. So, if you really want to have one of the best New Jersey legal combat shotgun with any of the fun features, then the 590A1 is unbeatable for New Jersey. And plus, when you rack that slide, any bad guy hearing that usually registers it in his pants, when you hear that racking going on. So, you should consider having one in your home defense. The 590A1, it’s a great gun. I don’t know if those tungsten loads will be available to the public or not, but this is fun stuff that I wanted to bring to your attention.

Evan Nappen 31:32

Hey, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is our gun range that Teddy and I shoot at, and we love it there. They are a fantastic range right in Lakewood, New Jersey, and they have some good specials going on. They have a Sig Sauer P365 Flux, which is the evolution of the micro-compact carry gun, now paired with the FLUX defense chassis for enhanced stability, capacity and speed in a PDW-style platform. They have a Smith & Wesson M&P 9 M2.0 Compact, which is their carry size powerhouse with a flat face trigger, aggressive grip texture, built to perform under pressure with everyday reliability. And they have a Mossberg Gold Reserve Super Sport, a competition-ready over / under, an over and under, 12 gauge with eye-catching scroll engraving, polished blue finish, and a premium walnut stock built for the clay sports game. So, these are just a few of the hot guns being highlighted by WeShoot. You should definitely check them out. Go to weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 32:52

You can also check out Juliana. She’s fully locked in and in love with her MAC 5, showing off, the versatile fun a modern sporting rifle platform can be. So, go to WeShoot’s website – weshootusa.com. You can check out Juliana there with the MAC 5. You can also see the other great photographs that WeShoot prides themselves on. When you go to the range there, you will be very impressed. They have fantastic training, and you can get your certificate there to get your carry. You can also get all kinds of training for both beginners and experienced shooters, as well. They have top people on their staff. It is a great resource that you should take advantage of. Go to weshootusa.com and learn the best kept secret in New Jersey the WeShoot range, a fantastic place. Page – 8 – of 14

Evan Nappen 33:57

Let me also tell you about our good friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the stalwart defenders of our gun rights in New Jersey. New Jersey is one tough environment, as you know, and without a great group like the Association, we’d be even worse off. Can you imagine even worse? So we’re there. We’re there with the association. You need to be with us. I’m a member. You need to be a member. It is critical. They’re the ones in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist keeping track of the shenanigans going on there. And we’re able to make a difference. Believe it or not. We are. Plus we have the battles ongoing in the courts, and, man, I am excited for them. We have some appellate stuff going on now, an we’re going to be getting some great results. I feel it. I know it. We’ll be reporting about that and telling you all about it here on Gun Lawyer.

Evan Nappen 35:00

It’s a slow climb, because the wheels turn slow. But folks, it is. It is something where I know we’re going to be successful, and the Association is there for you, fighting for your rights. Go to anjrpc.org and join today. Make sure you’re part of the solution. Join your official NRA state affiliate, the Association. You’ll get the email alerts to the legislative alerts and court results, and you’ll be on top of things. You’ll get a beautiful newsletter. The best in the state, so you’ll know what’s going on here in New Jersey, and you’ll have the resources of the Association behind you. So, go to anjrpc.org and join today.

Evan Nappen 35:58

And while you’re at it, make sure you get a copy of my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages in a question and answer format. It explains everything you need to know so you can avoid becoming a GOFU in New Jersey. And man, do you need that because New Jersey is crazy. And to not be destroyed by the state’s gun laws, and instead be able to exercise safely and legally your rights. You need my book, New Jersey Gun Law. Go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy today. When you do get your book, right down there on the front cover, make sure you scan the QR code, and you can immediately join for free, my private subscriber base. You’ll be able to access immediately the updates, which I’ll have a new update coming out very shortly here, updating the new laws, doing a comprehensive 2026 Update. You get all that for free. So, your book stays current. Go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy today. Teddy, what do you have for us today?

Teddy Nappen 37:15

Well, as we know, Press Checks are always free. And look, everyone has been seeing it on the Left, where they’re all of a sudden now everyone seems to have become an expert on the Second Amendment. As you, which, every time I hear that, I think the words Second Amendment TM – trademark, because it’s their version of the Second Amendment. They never actually go into too many details. But I will say, and this is very funny. From MSN, from this writer, Adam Lynch, “‘Never seen a surge like this:’ Panicked liberals are stocking up on guns..” (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/never-seen-a-surge-like-this-panicked-liberals-are-stocking-up-on-guns/ar-AA1QuJEL) Huh! The 500 million mark is coming into play. But I love this. If you ever want to laugh, read an MSN article, because it’s just so, not just the propaganda, but the sourcing and how it works. It’s, okay. It goes. “NPR reports liberals and members of the LGBTQ community are buying guns to protect themselves as both the White House and national discourse grows increasingly hostile.” I love how Page – 9 – of 14

they cite their sources, NPR. Like NPR is a reputable source, but yeah. And I love this, a random unnamed Maryland Doctor. It just says Maryland Doctor. I’m not saying.

Evan Nappen 38:40

Oh, is he related to the Maryland man?

Teddy Nappen 38:43

I guess. I know. Maybe he’s from Venezuela or El Salvador. “I’m not saying that’s what’s going to happen. What I’m saying is none of this is out of the question.” In regards to, like, Trump is going to start kicking in doors on like just. And I love this. “Charles, who is black, says he bought his handgun after Trump administration did things that scared him . . .” Okay.

Evan Nappen 39:15

Well, I’ll tell you what. Every gun owner is someone with a vested interest in the Second Amendment. So, good. Yeah, good.

Teddy Nappen 39:24

And they decided to do interviews. They say 30 sources, unnamed, mind you. Where they’re saying NPR reports, the face of gun ownership is changing. Once perceived as the white, rural and Republican, gun clubs or trainers, Second Amendment advocates and academic researchers now say that liberals, people of color, and LGBTQ members have been buying guns and training with them since Trump’s re-election. First of all, I like how they separate people of color and Republicans when the mass.

Evan Nappen 39:54

The Second Amendment is for everybody.

Teddy Nappen 39:56

Yeah!

Evan Nappen 39:56

It’s for everybody.

Teddy Nappen 39:57

Yeah. And also they need to remember that Hispanics overwhelmingly voted for Trump and are leaning conservative. Blacks overwhelmingly, comparatively, Trump had the most vote of black Americans since dating back to Nixon. So, whenever they try to separate out and try to paint the Republican Party as racist. I always remind them of that. It’s just such stupidity on their part. But going into that, I did love this. So, Thomas Boyer, the spokesman for the San Francisco Chapter the Pink Pistols, said, “Armed gays don’t get bashed.”

Evan Nappen 40:37

Right! They don’t. Page – 10 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 40:39

I know. Didn’t you actually like, did they bring you on once, the Pink Pistols?

Evan Nappen 40:43

They made me an honorary life member of the Pink Pistols, believe it or not, which is fine, great. The Second Amendment is for everyone. And you know, it doesn’t matter whether someone is liberal or conservative or what their sexual preference or race is. It is all our right. All of us have this right, and we always want to be consistent. Whether or not politically I agree with anything on the Left, it doesn’t matter. In the same way that I support their right to free speech, even though I disagree with them. Rights are rights. And the point here is we can have common ground, and we’re seeing common ground. We’re actually seeing it. Because as more of the Left wants guns, that’s great. Join with us, and let’s pass laws that enhance the Second Amendment. As a matter of fact, think of it this way, folks. The anti-Second Amendment, the Second Amendment oppressors, they don’t want the Left to exercise gun rights any more than they want the right to exercise gun rights because they are anti-gun rights. We are pro-gun rights. We want all people. And every time anybody becomes a gun owner, they now get a vested interest in our Second Amendment rights. So, this creates that common ground, and that can include national reciprocity. It can include Pretti’s Law that we’ve talked about, right? It means this is an opportunity. So, don’t let the Left’s political views cloud our commitment to universal Second Amendment rights.

Teddy Nappen 42:56

So, going off of that, one of the things the article cited to was a group known as, I never heard of these guys, the Liberal Gun Club. It was from this firearm instructor, David Phillips. They have 30 chapters in other, in other states. And they said their membership has grown from 2,700 in November to 4,500. So, going off of that, I actually wanted to look these guys up to understand, like, what is a Liberal Gun Club? (https://theliberalgunclub.com/) Like it just, you just, you’re going off of that. I hear those two words, and it just doesn’t sound right. And so.

Evan Nappen 43:32

But, it is right. It is right.

Evan Nappen 43:35

But I know why you would think it wouldn’t be.

Teddy Nappen 43:35

I know.

Evan Nappen 43:37

Bingo.

Teddy Nappen 43:37

Yeah, exactly. And I went to their website, and this is what was funny. The common ground managers, where they go into, we are, they go into. They include and oppose the assault weapon ban as well as restriction of magazine capacity. Page – 11 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 43:37

And this view is directly related to our preference of an enforcement approach rather than regulation. Then, and what’s even funnier, the one thing that I found, the little nugget in their entire list, they are for national reciprocity.

Evan Nappen 44:11

The other factor is, and I dug deeper into them, they actually spoke out against Bloomberg and the Moms Demand Action.

Evan Nappen 44:11

Okay. So, look at this liberal gun group here, the Liberal Gun Club. Liberal gun group is against the assault firearm ban, against the magazine ban and pro-national reciprocity. Guess what? We’re all on the same page. This is our common ground. This is a common ground that we need to further develop. We need the pro-Second Amendment side to happily join in the same issues that we mutually support. Look, there are things we have differences about, without a doubt, okay? Most of the liberal agenda I am not, not, on board with at all, but that’s okay. Because the issue that I care most about, the issue that is my entire life’s calling and yours as well, Teddy, is the Second Amendment. And if this group is supporting what I support, then we can be together on those issues. We need to be together on those issues and not try to exclude or judge or separate anybody away because we don’t agree with the rest of their politics. I don’t care about the rest of their politics. That’s fine for us to have our differences, but this is where we’re together. And what you just said, there is great. We need more of that. Because that’s how we can finally get the rest of the Left to lay off our rights and to pass something like National Reciprocity, to quit trying to screw with us at every turn, to disenfranchise us from our gun rights. We can unite here.

Evan Nappen 46:09

Even better.

Teddy Nappen 46:12

Which they go into with the head president of the yet all actions they say you need to take is to donate to them. And what can they do with their donations, or, quote, unquote, saving lives and quote unquote, ending gun violence, or so they say. However, they spend, the national group spends most of their time advocacy related to gun violence focused exclusively on passing stricter gun control laws, which have already been disproven. So, they even agree that gun control fails. They actually agree it does not solve any of the issues that they actually are worried about. And they cited to a book, and this reminded me of one you brought to me once, it was “Restricting Handguns” by Don Kates.

Evan Nappen 47:07

Yes!

Teddy Nappen 47:08

Where it was the liberal. It was the liberal skeptics guide where, you know, liberals. Page – 12 – of 14

Evan Nappen 47:14

The Liberal skeptics speak out. Okay. Don Kates was one of my mentors when I first became a lawyer. And prior to becoming a lawyer, I was a member of the very first firearm law firm in America. It was Bennison, Kates and Hardy, and I was in the New York City law office of Bennison and Kates. I knew Don Kates and Mark Bennison, and Dave Hardy. Don Kates was out in California, and he was criminology professor. Don Kates was great guy, and he wanted to do this very thing we’re talking about here. Of cross trestling, of uniting, of making liberals see that the Second Amendment is critical for them as well as us. And so, his book “Restricting Handguns – The Liberal Skeptics Speak Out” was all about folks who you would normally think would be anti- Second Amendment and were not. (https://openlibrary.org/books/OL4408746M/Restricting_handguns)

Evan Nappen 48:26

Interestingly, Mark Benson, who was the other partner, was a former president of Amnesty International. But Mark was solidly pro-Second Amendment. I mean, Kates taught criminal justice and law in California. Okay? We’re talking about folks you might normally think of on the Left, but were actually hard-core Second Amendment great pro-gun fighters. I’ll tell you. Don Kates was the first guy that I ever met that carried a firearm, regardless. He said, Second Amendment, and that’s it. And I always was impressed how much he believed in the Second Amendment. He was fantastic. And it was great experience working for that firm and being part of the very first firearm law firm in America. Of course, now firearm law is an identified area of practice, but then people had never heard of such a thing. So, Don Kates, with this book, really had a lot of impact, and to this day, it’s still being utilized and cited because the Liberal Gun Club that you talk about is the same idea. And Kate was really ahead of his time in identifying this very thing. We need to join with the other side when they are with us on our issue.

Teddy Nappen 50:14

And what was really, really funny is he meant, and there was a similar book where he references a book called “Beyond Control” by Jacob Sullum. He talks about the racist roots of gun control and drug control. (https://www.beyondcontrolbook.net/)

Evan Nappen 50:27

There you go.

Teddy Nappen 50:28

And it’s that, it’s that inner weaving of the policies to actually put that in perspective, because everyone on the Left, like they typically, are in lockstep on this. But if we can turn this, just like with the trans issue, if we can turn this into a 90/10 issue, we could get national reciprocity. The vast majority like this. Imagine The Trace and Bloomberg having to, I just saw this, just on my feed, where they’re trying to say, don’t go out and buy firearms. Don’t, don’t kid. Telling their liberal followers, don’t go out and buy firearms, even though they’re all calling for the Second Amendment on it. It’s that level. They have so pushed. Page – 13 – of 14

Evan Nappen 51:12

They are so scared to death that, yeah, this very thing that we’re talking about here is actually happening and taking place. And we on the pro-gun side need to put out our hand of friendship to the other side when they’re with us on our issue. Because those that oppose us, the oppressors, are scared to death of it, and with good reason. This can make us win. It can get our rights back. This is the way to do it, folks. I honestly believe and have fought for this. And throughout my legal career, we’ve seen how the liberal causes so-called, whether you know, traditionally where they claim were pro-civil rights, yet they go after a single black mom. Shaneen Allen, who had a carry permit from Pennsylvania and happened to be in the Democratic People’s Republic of New Jersey, gets put through the shredder. It’s the institutionalized racism that our good friend John Petrolino has talked about and shown in the permitting system. These are the things that are out there that the Left, historically, would have been concerned with, but somehow they block it out with guns. No, no. Join. Join together. This can get our movement over the top.

Evan Nappen 52:44

The other thing they can do. This will be the Midas touch. Once they see the National Reciprocity and start carrying, all of a sudden, all the things that they were supporting, Red Flag, Universal Background Check, both things are going to predominantly deny them their rights. Because I think there’s a statistic showing, I think, it’s 67 or 68% of liberals or Democrats have mental health issues which screws them out of their rights. So, this is the key to getting them to see that this is the path to victory of how to get the Second Amendment back. Then we can remove all these insane regulations.

Evan Nappen 53:22

Incrementally, get to where we need to be. Well, Teddy, I appreciate it. A great, great topic. And I want to tell you about this week’s GOFU, which is, of course, the Gun Owner Fuck Up, where actual clients, actual cases, where we see the problem, and you get to learn the lesson for free. And this week’s GOFU is pretty simple. Don’t involve the police in your life unless you absolutely have to. And what I mean is this. There are mechanisms in law that are there that people have no idea how it suddenly affects your gun rights. And that includes the so- called wellness check, even domestic violence, all these things where they’re played up as extremely important. And I’m not saying they aren’t. But it makes it so that individuals that invoke any of these laws and involve the Government in your life, next thing you know, guns are being seized. Individuals are losing their rights, and they’re having to fight to get them back.

Evan Nappen 54:36

Often it’s the very person that invokes the law itself. Yeah, we see this. We get cases where the person called the police to scare their partner or to just get more attention to it. But they don’t realize that gets the entire system to come down on them, taking guns and ruining lives. They have no clue of the impact once the Government gets in your life. Forget it. It’s going to be a fight. It’s the old, I think, Ronald Reagan said, you know, “We’re here from the Government. We’re here to help.” Yeah, that’s the joke, and it’s true. This is what happens. You get a wellness check done, and boom, guns are taken. You’re now fighting for your rights. We get these all the time. Look, I understand. If someone has serious problems and they need help, maybe you’ve got to do it. If you’re being abused, okay. But, you know, if it’s not something that the Government has to get involved in, do not involve the Government. Page – 14 – of 14

Evan Nappen 55:22

Over and over and over again, we get, I get the calls. I call them “the calls of regret”. The phone calls of regret. They’re GOFUs. And yet, for me to even say this, I’ll get criticized. How dare you say that? How about stopping me? We need to know call. I see the reality of it in the practice. I get the phone call of regret when you involve the Government. So, the GOFU is that be very, very careful. Very, very selective, if you ever want to put the Government in your life or a loved one’s life. Because the ramifications, particularly in the Democratic People’s Republic of New Jersey, can be very significant and can dramatically impact yours and your loved ones lives.

Evan Nappen 56:47

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

56:57

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing [email protected]. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It’s Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham’s Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

[email protected]

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