Sue Grand joins us for a conversation about hatred and totalitarianism. A psychoanalyst who has spent decades studying trauma and the ways evil reproduces across history, Grand is interested in how introspection might protect us and others from our own perpetrator fragments. She challenges the assumption that traumatized people victimize others—most do not. The regeneration of harm, she argues, arises from a complex interplay between psychological defenses and social structures such as gender binaries and racialization. But how do everyday people get caught up in the fevered swell of fascist times? Can psychotherapy be antifascist? Grand examines the erotic lure of fascism, while John and Mason explore Deleuze and Guattari’s provocative claim that, on some level, we all desire it.

|| Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely

|| Music by Mason Neely

|| Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll

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