Therapist Uncensored Podcast

Sue and Ann are back to explore why genuine curiosity is harder than it sounds—and why our need for certainty can quietly interfere with connection. Through relatable examples, attachment science, and a little self-reflection, Ann and Sue highlight the difference between seeking answers and cultivating true curiosity. They explore how our assumptions about ourselves and others shape our relationships, why uncertainty can feel threatening, and how learning to sit with discomfort can open the door to deeper understanding. From challenging the stories we tell ourselves to recognizing our own emotional reactions, discover practical ways to move beyond defensiveness, strengthen self-awareness, and build more secure, connected relationships—starting with yourself.

01:05 Exploring curiosity as a tool for connection

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others.

“Comprehensive, courageous, creative and clear, Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley expertly and compassionately guide us through a deep understanding of attachment and how to rewire our nervous systems toward more secure and fulfilling relationships. This is a cutting-edge essential read for those at any stage of the self-discovery journey who seek to make meaningful changes in their lives.  A wonderful contribution to our collective conversation about how to make our shared world a better place for us all.” – Daniel Siegel, M.D.

Psychologist, scholar, and activist Dr. Makungu Akinyela explores Testimony Therapy, an African-centered approach that emphasizes storytelling, cultural identity, ancestral wisdom, and community connection. Alongside co-host Sue Marriott, they examine how colonialism and systemic oppression shape mental health, the power of oral traditions in healing, and why meaningful change requires moving beyond individual treatment toward collective healing and liberation.

01:09 Dr. Akinyela’s background and activism

Dr. Makungu M. Akinyela (Mah-koon-goo Ah-keen-yay-Lah) is a leading authority on cultural democracy, narrative practice, anti-racist resistance, and mental health. He is a licensed psychotherapist practicing in Atlanta, Georgia, and an Associate Professor of Africana Studies at Georgia State University. He is the creator of the African-centered approach to narrative practice called testimony therapy and the author of the book Testimony Therapy: Decolonizing Mental Health for Black Therapists and Clients, published by W.W. Norton. He is also the author of the book Culture, Politics, Spirituality and Practice: A book of resistance and critical theory for disturbing times, published by Dulwich Publications. As a scholar activist and a therapist. Dr. Akinyela is a lifelong committed social justice organizer with a focus on struggles for human rights and justice for Black people in the United States and the African diaspora. His research and writing include such subjects as cultural democracy and mental health care; cultural domination and therapeutic resistance; reparations and the role of mental health workers in repairing oppressive wounds; and African-centered family therapy. He is a Clinical Fellow and an Approved Supervisor of the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy (AAMFT).

Testimony Therapy: Decolonizing Mental Health for Black Therapists and Clients – Get your copy of Dr. Akinyela’s book

Therapy can be costly, but part of the mission of Talkspace is to provide quality care that is accessible and affordable—whether or not you are insured. As a listener of this podcast, you’ll get $80 off of your first month with Talkspace when you go to Talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80.

Everyone’s heard of attachment styles – but you likely don’t know how much the popular press gets wrong and what the science actually says about how to improve your relationships long term (including how we relate to ourselves).  This course is for anyone wanting to more deeply understand attachment (styles vs patterns), unconscious defense activation patterns, implicit scripts… and most importantly, what to do once you do get activated!  Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout.

Ready to dive deeper into Secure Relating? Grab the book or explore the course, and use code BAS15 for a limited-time listener discount.

Or read Marriott & Kelley’s critically-acclaimed book, Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World (HarperCollins,2023) for the most in-depth experience of learning about Secure Relating.

Therapists love it, but it’s accessible to everyone.  If you aren’t interested in the background science, just start at Part 2 and we will be talking directly to you – it’s fun!

Your fellow Neuronerds are waiting – Join our exclusive community to get exclusive bonus content, early access to training opportunities, and an ad-free, private podcast feed. It’s this warm community that allows us to donate half of all corporate profits to mental health access for marginalized peoples.

Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! 

Dr. Ann Kelley talks with psychologist and bestselling author Dr. Marisa G. Franco about her new book, Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment. Dr. Franco challenges the idea that healing means becoming perfectly “secure,” arguing instead for becoming “secure-ish”—learning to acknowledge insecurity, shame, vulnerability, and other difficult emotions without judging or rejecting those parts of ourselves. She explores the difference between self-esteem and true self-worth, why some people struggle to receive love or positive feedback, and how our deeply held stories about ourselves can shape the relationships and experiences we seek out. The conversation also navigates into the science of memory and memory reconsolidation, including how past experiences can continue to influence our emotions and reactions even when we don’t consciously remember them.

01:57 Why friendship matters more than we think

An enlightening psychologist, international speaker, and New York Times bestselling author, Dr. Marisa G Franco is known for digesting and communicating science in ways that resonate deeply enough with people to change their lives. She works as a professor at The University of Maryland and authored the New York Times bestseller Platonic: How The Science of Attachment Can Help You Make—and Keep—Friends and Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment. She writes about friendship for Psychology Today and has been a featured connection expert for major publications like The New York Times, The Telegraph, and Vice. She speaks on belonging and self-worth at corporations, government agencies, non-profits, and universities. For tips on friendship, you can follow her on Instagram (DrMarisaGFranco), or go to her website, www.DrMarisaGFranco.com, where you can take a quiz to assess your strengths and weaknesses as a friend & reach out for speaking engagements. Dr. Marisa G. Franco professor, speaker, and author of Platonic and the forthcoming Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.  

Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment – Marisa’s book, get your copy!

Dr. Franco’s LinkedIn – Profile

@DrMarisaGFranco – Instagram profile

Newsletter – Subscribe to receives yours

Website – Information, speaking engagements and more

SimplePractice is an all-in-one EHR that is HIPPA compliant, HITRUST certified and built specifically for therapists.

If you are ready to simplify the business side of your practice, now is a great time to try SimplePractice. Start with a 7-day free trial, then get 50% off your first three months. Just go to SimplePractice.com to claim the offer.

Everyone’s heard of attachment styles – but you likely don’t know how much the popular press gets wrong and what the science actually says about how to improve your relationships long term (including how we relate to ourselves).  This course is for anyone wanting to more deeply understand attachment (styles vs patterns), unconscious defense activation patterns, implicit scripts… and most importantly, what to do once you do get activated!  Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout.

Ready to dive deeper into Secure Relating? Grab the book or explore the course, and use code BAS15 for a limited-time listener discount.

Or read Marriott & Kelley’s critically-acclaimed book, Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World (HarperCollins,2023) for the most in-depth experience of learning about Secure Relating.

Therapists love it, but it’s accessible to everyone.  If you aren’t interested in the background science, just start at Part 2 and we will be talking directly to you – it’s fun!

Your fellow Neuronerds are waiting – Join our exclusive community to get exclusive bonus content, early access to training opportunities, and an ad-free, private podcast feed. It’s this warm community that allows us to donate half of all corporate profits to mental health access for marginalized peoples.

Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! 

Explore expanded states of consciousness with Patty Nagle's insights on breathwork and psychedelics for personal transformation.

Learn how attachment healing can improve your relationships and foster deeper connections within your community and beyond.

Discover how DBT can cultivate joy and self-acceptance, addressing the effects of chronic invalidation on queer identities.

Delve into Mentalization-Based Treatment to support those with Borderline Narcissistic traits and strengthen emotional intelligence.

Robert Drozek explores the science behind borderline and narcissistic personality disorders, separating common myths from current research. Together, he and Sue discuss attachment, trauma, genetics, parenting, evidence-based treatments, and why understanding these often misunderstood conditions can bring greater compassion, hope, and healthier relationships.

04:14 Understanding Borderline Personality Disorder

Robert P. Drozek, LICSW is the clinical director of the Mentalization-Based Treatment Clinic at McLean Hospital in Belmont, Massachusetts. He is a teaching associate in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, specializing in the treatment of

Download page – Free worksheets and handouts from the book

Mentalization Coach App – The first mobile app for mentalization and MBT,

Mentalization-based Treatment for Pathological Narcissism – Handbook

Mentalization-based Treatment for Personality Disorders–  A practical guide

Cambridge Guide to Mentalization-based Treatment

NPD Basic – A free guide to narcissistic personality disorder

MBT Boston – An organization that Robert co-founded that offers training and supervision to clinicians across the world in MBT

MBT USA – A consortium of MBT providers and organizations in the United

Robert’s faculty page at McLean Hospital

Mentalization book – Facebook page

SimplePractice is an all-in-one EHR that is HIPPA compliant, HITRUST certified and built specifically for therapists.

If you are ready to simplify the business side of your practice, now is a great time to try SimplePractice. Start with a 7-day free trial, then get 50% off your first three months. Just go to SimplePractice.com to claim the offer.

Everyone’s heard of attachment styles – but you likely don’t know how much the popular press gets wrong and what the science actually says about how to improve your relationships long term (including how we relate to ourselves).  This course is for anyone wanting to more deeply understand attachment (styles vs patterns), unconscious defense activation patterns, implicit scripts… and most importantly, what to do once you do get activated!  Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout.

As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Or read Marriott & Kelley’s critically-acclaimed book, Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World (HarperCollins,2023)

for the most in-depth experience of learning about Secure Relating.

Therapists love it, but it’s accessible to everyone.  If you aren’t interested in the background science, just start at Part 2 and we will be talking directly to you – it’s fun!

What is responsible externalization?

Special guest Amy Holloway explores how trust shapes thriving communities, effective leadership, and long-term economic growth. Drawing from interviews with leaders across the United States, Amy shares the simple but powerful behaviors that build trust, strengthen collaboration, and create meaningful change – whether in organizations, neighborhoods, or entire cities. Together, Amy and Ann discuss the leadership traits that foster connection, the behaviors that erode trust, and why building community starts with intentional relationships.

00:15 Importance of establishing trust in communities

Amy Holloway is the president of Aha!, an economic development consultancy specializing in strategic planning, and a practitioner-in-residence with Harvard Kennedy School’s Reimagining the Economy Project. Over a 30-year career, she has helped more than 200 places design strategies for long-term economic growth and community prosperity. A retired partner at Ernst & Young and leader of the firms national economic development practice, Amy previously founded and led Avalanche Consulting, one of the nation’s leading strategic planning firms. With her upbeat, welcoming style, she brings local leaders together through conversations that spark “aha!” moments and shared action. Her new #1 bestselling book, Trust Builders: The Key To Thriving Communities, is the culmination of Amy’s career-long belief that trust among local leaders is the single most powerful force shaping thriving communities. Amy lives in Asheville, North Carolina. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, painting, and teaching Pilates.

Trust Builders: The Key to Thriving Communities – Get your copy of Amy’s book today!!

Aha! Advisor – Aha! is where leaders unite to make a lasting impact, learn more

Trust Strengths Assessment – Take your assessment here!!

Reimagining the Economy Project, Harvard Kennedy School – Rohan Sandhu, Tony Ditta, Monserrat Magana Ocana

The Social Capital Atlas – Raj Chetty, Matthew O. Jackson, Theresa Kuchler, Johannes Stroebel. Abigail Hiller, Sarah Oppenheimer * The Opportunity Insights Team

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.