In this episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, we sit down with internationally respected clinician, trainer, and author Deb Wesselmann to explore the powerful intersection of EMDR therapy, attachment wounds, childhood trauma, parenting, and relational healing.

Deb shares her decades of experience integrating attachment theory with EMDR therapy, including practical ways therapists can work with children, parents, families, and adults carrying unresolved developmental trauma.

We discuss:

• Why attachment trauma often lives beneath symptoms
• How EMDR can help heal early relational wounds
• Working with children using EMDR
• Family therapy + EMDR integration
• Resourcing trust, safety, and connection
• Parents as part of the healing process
• Parts work / ego states in EMDR
• How therapists become corrective emotional experiences
• Why the therapeutic relationship still matters deeply in trauma work

Deb also shares stories from training with Francine Shapiro in the early days of EMDR and how the field has evolved over time.

If you're an EMDR therapist, trauma therapist, counselor, psychologist, or simply fascinated by healing relationships, this conversation is packed with wisdom.

Learn more about Deb Wesselmann through her website: https://debrawesselmann.com/

Learn more about training and professional development opportunities with Beyond Healing through our website: connectbeyondhealing.com

DETAILED SHOW NOTES

Introduction

Bridger and Jen open the episode by discussing their upcoming EMDR Basic Trainings, hybrid learning model, consultation opportunities, and their emphasis on relationship-centered EMDR training.

Meet Deb Wesselmann

Deb shares her background as:

• Former school teacher
• Therapist for 35+ years
• EMDR clinician since the mid-1990s
• Co-founder of the Attachment and Trauma Center in Nebraska
• Longtime specialist in attachment, trauma, adoption, children, and family healing

Her journey into therapy began through witnessing the unmet emotional needs of children in school settings.

Early EMDR with Francine Shapiro

Deb reflects on training directly with Francine Shapiro when EMDR was still considered “experimental.”

She discusses:

• Why she was initially skeptical
• Her powerful practicum experience
• How EMDR differed from hypnosis
• Why EMDR felt safer, gentler, and more effective for trauma treatment

Why Attachment and EMDR Fit So Well

Deb explains how EMDR naturally supports attachment healing because it helps process:

• mistrust
• abandonment wounds
• relational fear
• unresolved grief
• abuse memories
• developmental trauma

She emphasizes that attachment styles are shaped through experience—not fixed identity.

What Didn’t Happen Matters Too

One of the most powerful moments of the episode:

Healing is not only about processing what happened to clients...

It is also about grieving and repairing what never happened:

• protection
• soothing
• attunement
• nurture
• safety
• emotional co-regulation

Parts Work / Ego States in EMDR

Deb and the hosts discuss:

• ego states
• parts language
• multiplicity of self
• internalized child parts
• wounded protector parts

They explore how parts work deepens EMDR treatment, especially with complex trauma.

Deb’s Integrative Family EMDR Model

Deb outlines her step-by-step model for working with children and families:

Phase 1:

Parent psychoeducation and case conceptualization

Helping parents understand:

• “This is not a bad child.”
• “This is a wounded child in survival mode.”

Phase 2:

Family preparation and regulation work

Including:

• body regulation exercises
• window of tolerance education
• playful nervous system work
• emotional literacy

Phase 3:

Attachment-focused EMDR resourcing

Examples:

• parent-child connection exercises
• messages of love
• soothing touch
• bilateral stimulation paired with relational safety
• healing the “little one inside”

When Parents Are the Barrier

Deb speaks honestly about difficult cases where caregivers are emotionally unsafe, resistant, or abusive.

The hosts discuss how therapists may need to pivot toward:

• supporting the child directly
• grief work
• coping strategies
• becoming a safe relational template

The Therapist as Attachment Resource

A major theme of the conversation:

The therapeutic relationship itself becomes healing data.

Bridger discusses inviting clients to:

“Take my voice with you.”

Meaning:

• internalize compassion
• remember safety
• borrow regulation
• carry supportive relational memory into distress

This is a beautiful section for therapists working with complex trauma.

Why This Episode Matters

This conversation reminds us that EMDR is not merely protocol.

It is also:

• relational
• developmental
• embodied
• attachment-informed
• deeply human

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In this return to our Back to Basics series, we’re diving into one of the most misunderstood—and often over-scripted—parts of EMDR therapy: interweaves.

If you were trained to think of interweaves as something you “pull out of a list” when a client gets stuck, you’re not alone. But what if interweaves aren’t about saying the right thing… and instead about understanding what the system needs next?

In this episode, we explore:

• What interweaves are actually doing in the brain and nervous system
• Why “cognitive interweaves” are only part of the story
• How stuckness in EMDR often reflects deeper relational and developmental patterns
• The difference between interrupting processing vs. supporting movement
• How to move from rigid scripts to relational, somatic, and intuitive interweaves
• Why some interweaves increase distress—and why that’s not a failure

We walk through core categories from Francine Shapiro's EMDR: Basic Principles, Protocols, and Procedures (responsibility, safety, and choice), while also expanding into a more integrative framework that includes:

• Somatic interweaves
• Affective interweaves
• Relational and resource-based interweaves

You’ll also hear real clinical reflections on:

• Why “I’m confused…” doesn’t always land
• How metaphor, imagery, and even humor can unlock stuck processing
• When to stay out of the way… and when your presence matters most

Ultimately, this conversation reframes interweaves not as a technique—but as a relational intervention grounded in attunement, timing, and case conceptualization.

If you’ve ever found yourself thinking:

“What do I say right now?”

This episode will help you shift toward:

“What does my client’s system need right now?”

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What happens when one of the most meaningful seasons of life—pregnancy and early parenthood—collides with trauma, grief, and attachment wounds?

In this episode of Notice That, we sit down with perinatal mental health specialist Bethany Warren to explore how EMDR therapy can be used safely and effectively with pregnant and postpartum clients—and why so many clinicians have been taught otherwise.

Together, we unpack:

• The most common myths about EMDR in pregnancy (and what the research actually says)
• Why “just resourcing” may unintentionally limit healing
• How attachment wounds, identity shifts, and grief show up in the perinatal period
• The difference between trauma and the deeper layers of loss
• How EMDR helps untangle both present-day distress and long-standing relational patterns

We also explore the emotional reality of becoming a parent—the unexpected grief, the vulnerability of attachment, and the ways our own histories come alive in this stage of life.

This conversation is both clinically rich and deeply human—an invitation to rethink how we approach trauma, healing, and development in one of the most transformative seasons of life.

Whether you’re an EMDR clinician or simply someone navigating parenthood, this episode offers a powerful lens into what it means to heal while becoming.

Connect with Bethany Warren:

• Website: https://bethanywarrenlcsw.com/
• Perinatal EMDR Training (HAP): https://www.traumarecoveryhap.org/course/warren-perinatal-clients

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Becoming a parent is often described as one of life’s most joyful milestones. But what happens psychologically, relationally, and neurologically during the transition into parenthood is far more complex — and far less discussed — than many clinicians realize.

In this episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Bridger and Jen sit down with psychologist and EMDR consultant Dr. Nirit Gordon to explore the profound developmental, attachment-based, and trauma-related shifts that occur during the perinatal period. Drawing from feminist theory, attachment research, evolutionary anthropology, and clinical EMDR practice, this conversation reframes the transition to parenthood as a sensitive developmental stage comparable to adolescence — a time marked by identity reorganization, heightened emotional activation, relational stress, and the resurfacing of unresolved attachment wounds.

Together, we explore:

• Why perinatal mental health is one of the most under-recognized areas in trauma treatment
• How attachment memories and developmental trauma networks reactivate during pregnancy and early parenting
• The concept of matrescence and its implications for case conceptualization Why fathers and partners undergo neurobiological and hormonal shifts during early parenting
• How modern parenting culture conflicts with evolutionary caregiving needs
• The myth of constant parental attunement and what attachment research actually shows
• Birth trauma and systemic gaps in trauma-informed obstetric care Using babies as resources in EMDR therapy
• The clinical importance of including perinatal experiences in Phase 1 history taking How therapists can support identity transformation during early parenthood

This episode invites clinicians to expand their understanding of trauma, development, and relational memory — and to consider the perinatal period not simply as a life event, but as a critical neurobiological and psychological window for therapeutic intervention. Whether you work directly with parents or not, this conversation offers a powerful lens for understanding how attachment, trauma, and identity evolve across the lifespan.

To follow Nirit's work, check out her website at niritgordonphd.com and her training offerings at touchstoneinstitute.org

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What happens when therapy stops being about techniques — and starts becoming about you?

In this deeply reflective episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen are joined by therapist and trainer Jessica Downs for an intimate conversation exploring the inner life of therapists, professional identity, and the personal work that inevitably emerges beneath clinical practice.

Together, they explore the hidden motivations that draw people into helping professions, the illusion of the “next training” as a solution to therapeutic stuckness, and the moment many therapists encounter when professional development turns into personal reckoning.

This episode moves beyond theory into experience, as Jessica guides a live experiential exercise inviting listeners to connect with younger parts of themselves — demonstrating how EMDR principles, ego state work, and imagination can foster integration and self-compassion.

Themes explored include:

• Why therapists often chase new modalities or trainings
• The relationship between burnout and unresolved inner dynamics
• Countertransference and the therapist’s personal history
• Ego states and parts work through an EMDR lens
• The role of suffering in human experience
• Individuation, identity, and professional evolution
• Healing as wholeness rather than symptom elimination

This conversation is slower, more inward, and intentionally reflective — an invitation to pause, notice, and reconnect with the parts of yourself that brought you into this work in the first place.

In This Episode, We Discuss

• The unconscious reasons therapists become therapists
• When “helping people” isn’t the whole story
• Capitalism, continuing education culture, and therapist insecurity
• Internal imagery and symbolic work in healing
• Parenting, therapy, and mirrors of the self
• Jessica’s “spotlighting” ego state exercise (follow along included)
• The La Loba myth and reclaiming lost parts of self

About Our Guest — Jessica Downs

Jessica Downs is a trauma therapist, EMDR clinician, and co-founder of Iris Training Collective. Her work integrates EMDR, ego state approaches, symbolism, and depth psychology to help therapists reconnect with authenticity and wholeness in both personal and professional development.

Resources & Links

• Iris Training Collective
• Live Well Counseling Center (Grand Junction, CO)
• Notice That Podcast
• Beyond Healing trainings and consultation opportunities

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What if resilience isn’t about “bouncing back,” but about the brain’s ongoing ability to adapt—moment by moment, across a lifetime?

In this episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen are joined by Laurel O’Neal Thornton, EMDR clinician, consultant, and educator, for a rich conversation on the neuroscience of resilience and what it actually looks like in EMDR therapy.

Drawing from neuroscience, EMDR, and years of clinical experience, Laurel reframes resilience as an innate human capacity—one that exists even in the presence of trauma, depression, neurodivergence, and chronic stress. Together, we explore how shame disrupts resilience, why meaning-making matters, and how EMDR can foster regulation, integration, and adaptability without chasing perfection or symptom elimination.

This episode is especially resonant for clinicians working with complex trauma, neurodivergent clients, chronic depression, or anyone feeling stuck in rigid models of “healing.”

✨ In This Episode, We Explore:

• Why resilience is adaptation, not toughness or “bouncing back”
• How EMDR naturally supports resilience through plasticity, regulation, and integration
• The role of shame as a major disruptor of innate resilience
• Why healing doesn’t mean never being triggered again
• How meaning, purpose, and relational connection show up in resilience research
• Working creatively within the EMDR protocol—especially Phase 2 and Phase 8
• Supporting neurodivergent and highly intelligent clients in EMDR
• Why spontaneity, play, and pattern-breaking matter in therapy
• What it really means to “trust the brain” in EMDR

🧩 Key Takeaways for Clinicians

• Resilience exists before healing—and therapy helps clients reconnect to it
• EMDR doesn’t fix broken brains; it helps glitching systems reintegrate
• Decreasing shame may be one of the most powerful therapeutic interventions
• Creativity and flexibility are not deviations from EMDR—they’re part of its design
• Healing is about faster recognition, quicker recovery, and greater self-understanding

👩‍🏫 About Our Guest

Laurel O’Neal Thornton is an EMDR clinician, consultant, educator, and practice owner who specializes in the neuroscience of trauma, resilience, and neurodivergence. She trains and consults clinicians internationally and is passionate about helping therapists integrate neuroscience in ways that are practical, humane, and deeply respectful of the client’s nervous system.

Learn more about Laurel’s work at Whole Brain Solutions

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In this episode of Notice That, we dive into one of the most avoided—and most essential—topics in mental health: sex, pleasure, and sexual health.

We’re joined by Cassie Krajewski, LCSW, AASECT-certified sex therapist, EMDRIA Approved Consultant, and co-founder of Iris Training Collective. Cassie brings a deeply integrative lens to sexuality—one that moves far beyond technique and into conceptualization, embodiment, and healing.

Together, we explore how sexual health is not a “specialty concern,” but a core dimension of human wellness—and how EMDR therapy offers a powerful, attuned framework for addressing sexual shame, desire, pleasure, and trauma.

In this conversation, we explore:

• Why sexual health is a birthright, not a performance metric
• How culture, religion, and shame disrupt embodiment and desire
• The role of pleasure as a healing mechanism, not a reward
• Why many therapists avoid sex—and how that avoidance shows up clinically
• Integrating sex therapy principles into EMDR case conceptualization
• Creative and embodied resourcing for sexual trauma and low desire
• Consent, curiosity, and reclaiming agency in sexuality
• How therapists can reflect on their own relationship to sex and pleasure

This episode is an invitation—to therapists and humans alike—to pause, notice, and gently question the stories we’ve inherited about sexuality… and to consider what healing might look like if pleasure were allowed back into the room.

Free Resources on Cassie's website at inneratlastherapy.com

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EMDR for Couples: Healing Together Through Simultaneous Processing

A Conversation with Arilda Surridge, LMFT

What happens when EMDR moves beyond the individual—and into the relationship itself?

In this episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen sit down with Arilda Surridge, LMFT, author and EMDR clinician, to explore how EMDR can be ethically, safely, and powerfully integrated into couples therapy. Arilda shares a clear, grounded framework for working with two nervous systems in the room—without deviating from EMDR fidelity—and offers concrete clinical examples that bring this work to life.

This conversation goes far beyond theory. Together, we walk through:

• When couples EMDR is and is not appropriate
• How to assess whether a trauma is individual, shared, or relational
• What simultaneous EMDR reprocessing actually looks like in practice
• How compassion, accountability, and repair emerge through bilateral stimulation
• Why tools alone often aren’t enough for deeply dysregulated couples

Arilda also shares clinical wisdom from her work with couples navigating car accidents, attachment injuries, guilt and shame, trust ruptures, and relational enactments—highlighting how EMDR can help partners move from reactivity to empathy.

This episode is especially valuable for:

• EMDR therapists working with couples
• Clinicians navigating attachment trauma and relational enactments
• Therapists curious about maintaining EMDR fidelity in non-traditional applications
• Anyone interested in how trauma lives between people—not just within them

About the Guest

Arilda Surridge, LMFT is a licensed marriage and family therapist, EMDR clinician, and the owner of Wellness Counseling Inc. She specializes in integrating EMDR into couples therapy while maintaining fidelity to the eight-phase protocol. Arilda is the author of a practical, clinician-focused book on EMDR for couples and offers professional trainings on this emerging area of practice.

Find out more about her practice here: https://wellnesscounselinginc.com/about/

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In this special “take your learner hat off” episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen sit down with Jennifer Ann Counseling—EMDR therapist and comedy content creator—for a playful, honest conversation about being a therapist and a human.

This episode isn’t about teaching a specific technique. It’s about humor, authenticity, and why laughter belongs alongside depth in trauma work. We talk about how Jennifer’s platform grew, what it’s like navigating social media as a therapist, handling negative comments, and why being real often connects more than being polished.

We also explore EMDR in everyday practice—ritual, intention, parts work, and the familiar client experience of “I don’t know why this works… but it does.”

Connect with Jennifer Ann Counseling

Instagram / TikTok: @JenniferAnnCounseling

Free resources available via her bio

If this episode resonates, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a colleague who needs a reminder that therapy can be human, playful, and deeply meaningful.

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In this episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Jen and Bridger sit down with Dr. Arielle Schwartz—somatic psychologist, EMDR therapist, and author of EMDR Therapy and Somatic Psychology—to explore what really happens when EMDR and body-based work are woven together in the therapy room.

Together, they dive into:

• How Arielle’s early training in somatic psychology shaped the way she learned and practices EMDR
• Why the body scan and somatic check-ins are not just “boxes to tick,” but core guides for pacing, target selection, and resolution
• Polyvagal theory’s view of how trauma gets “tagged” in the nervous system—both in external cues and internal sensations
• What to do when clients say, “I don’t feel anything in my body” and how even that response is meaningful data
• The myth that SUDs “should always go down,” especially with dissociative and complex trauma presentations
• Arielle and Barb Maiberger’s “golden nugget practice” and why we shouldn’t wait for a SUD = 0 to install and future-template meaningful shifts
• Therapist embodiment: using our own nervous system as an instrument for attunement, pacing, and repair

Arielle also shares about her Somatic EMDR trainings through BodyLab, her therapist retreats in Sedona and Costa Rica, and her Beyond Trauma nervous system care retreats, including an immersive experience in South Africa that combines yoga, nervous system education, and observing animals in the wild.

You’ll hear practical language, case examples, and flexible ways to honor EMDR’s structure while staying deeply relational, embodied, and responsive to the nervous system in front of you.

Learn more about Dr. Arielle Schwartz:

• Website (events, retreats, trainings): resilienceinformedtherapy.com
• Website (blog, yoga, additional resources): drarielleschwartz.com

Check out her card deck that integrates nature photography with quotes from The Post-Traumatic Growth Guidebook—a powerful tool for helping clients locate themselves in their healing process and set intentions for EMDR and somatic work.

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