Equiosity

We recorded this conversation early in April 2026 right after the Clicker Expo.

In Part 1 the Clicker Expo served as a launching point for our conversation. We talked about Dr Susan Friedman’s presentation on Doing Compassion and my own talk on Thinking Fast, Making Quick Decisions.

My program included a discussion of the characteristics we see in skilled trainers. In part 1 I listed some of those characteristics.

Among other things skilled trainers able to be flexible as needed. They are able to make adjustments in what they are asking. And they are creative. They are able to find teaching strategies and appropriate training steps that suits their learner’s individual needs. For the full list refer back to Part 1.

These characteristics are not some special gifts that people are born with. We can think of them as a by-product that emerges as we gain experience training our animal learners. The point of my program is we can be more deliberate, less hit or miss, in the development of these traits. When we jump into this training, of course people are focused on what they will be teaching their horses. That’s only natural. But it isn’t just the horses who are learning new skills. In the Thinking Fast program, I turned the spotlight onto the handler. What are the lessons the handlers are learning as they introduce their horses to basic targeting and the other core lessons? The structure and focus of these lessons helps to develop advanced training skills.

In Part 2 we continued with the discussion of the Thinking Fast presentation. We talked about what advanced training means, especially for handlers, and how do we develop advanced training skills?

In Part 3 we begin with another of my Expo Talks, this one is on Training Traps. To introduce that topic I have to first define what I mean by broad and narrow end of the funnel thinking.

Defining terms to start out with is important. It means we are all on the same page, talking about the same thing. A good illustration of that is the discussion of starter button and constant on cues. I’m using definitions that for me go back to Karen Pryor’s book, “Lads Before the Wind”.

In this Episode I also share what happened in the Backstage Pass presentation where I was supposed to work with a dog. Find out how that turned out in this week’s episode.

We recorded this conversation early in April 2026 right after the Clicker Expo in New York. In Part 1 the Clicker Expo served as a launching point for our conversation. We talked about Dr Susan Friedman’s presentation on Doing Compassion and my own talk on Thinking Fast and Making Quick Decisions.

In Part 2 we continue with the discussion of the Thinking Fast presentation. We talk about what advanced training means, especially for handlers, and a teaching process that helps to develop advanced training skills.

We recorded this conversation early in April 2026 right after the Clicker Expo. Dominique was really torn. She wanted to attend the Expo, but she didn’t feel comfortable traveling to the US given the current political climate. In the end she decided to stay home. That meant she was especially eager to hear about my Expo experience.

In this episode we talk about Dr Susan Friedman’s presentation on “Doing Compassion” and my own talk on “Thinking Fast”.

In 2025 Dominique needed to take some time off over the summer. I went ahead and did a series of interviews, including one with Dr Claire St Peter and Dr Carol Pilgrim, episodes 349 to 351. We were talking about stimulus control. Those episodes aired in the fall.

The episode you’re about to listen to was supposed to air back in the fall as well, but somehow it fell between the cracks and we moved on with other interviews instead. Now we’re airing that conversation.

In Part 1 we talked about the standard instructions for teaching cues and the way that I prefer to teach them. The standard instructions make use of extinction. I prefer to teach behaviors in pairs. I make use of a very powerful reminder: for every exercise there is an opposite exercise you must teach to keep things in balance. The result is strong stimulus control.

In Part 2 Dominique asked about learning what to click. When you are first starting out and you’ve never taught a behavior before, how do you know what to click? How do you avoid making a total mess of your stimulus control because you are clicking so many different versions of the behavior you’re after. We talked about becoming a selective sifter.

Even when you aren’t sure what you want to click because the behavior you’re teaching is new to you, you can still apply “narrow end of the funnel” thinking as you build the new behavior.

In Part 3 we begin with environmental cues and pre-performance cues. Then we head into a discussion of 300 peck pigeons.

Environmental cues include distractions. Distractions are often seen as something negative, something handlers try to avoid to the point that distractions become a source of anxiety for the handler. Instead distractions can be transformed into stimuli handlers can use to advance their training.

Distractions led us to training for duration and that took us to a discussion of a lesson I developed for Robin when he was a youngster. I called it the 300 Hundred Peck Pigeon Lesson.

Dominique wondered if 28 years on from the time I developed that lesson for Robin would I still use it? That took us to a discussion of boarding barns and the constraints we are often working under when we can’t keep our horses at home. Those constraints often mean we have to become very creative to meet the mental, emotional and physical needs of our horses.

In 2025 Dominique needed to take some time off over the summer. I went ahead and did a series of interviews, including one with Dr Claire St Peter and Dr Carol Pilgrim, episodes 349 to 351. We were talking about stimulus control. Those episodes aired in the fall.

The episode you’re about to listen to was supposed to air back in the fall as well, but somehow it fell between the cracks and we moved on with other interviews instead. Now we’re airing that conversation.

In Part 1 we talked about the standard instructions for teaching cues and the way that I prefer to teach them. The standard instructions make use of extinction. I prefer to teach behaviors in pairs. I make use of a very powerful reminder: for every exercise there is an opposite exercise you must teach to keep things in balance. The result is strong stimulus control.

In Part 2 Dominique asked about learning what to click. When you are first starting out and you’ve never taught a behavior before, how do you know what to click? How do you avoid making a total mess of your stimulus control because you are clicking so many different versions of the behavior you’re after. We talked about becoming a selective sifter.

Even when you aren’t sure what you want to click because the behavior you’re teaching is new to you, you can still apply “narrow end of the funnel” thinking as you build the new behavior.

In 2025 Dominique needed to take some time off over the summer. I went ahead and did a series of interviews, including one with Dr Claire St Peter and Dr Carol Pilgrim, episodes 349 to 351. We were talking about stimulus control. Those episodes aired in the fall.

The episode you’re about to listen to was supposed to air back in the fall as well, but somehow it fell between the cracks and we moved on with other interviews instead. We talked with Dr. Stephanie Jones, Sofia Abuin and Lucy Butler about control, coercion and empathy. After that, in the run-up to the Clicker Expo we did an interview with Chirag Patel.

And now finally here’s Part One of a three part conversation that Dominique and I had after Dominique listened to the interview with Dr Pilgrim and Dr St Peter. You might want to listen to those episodes first, but it is by no means necessary for you to have heard that conversation for you to be able to follow along here.

The conversation with Dr Pulgrim and Dr St Peter sparked lots of questions for Dominique.

We begin by comparing the standard instructions for teaching cues and stimulus control with the way that I prefer to teach them. The standard instructions make use of extinction. I prefer to teach behaviors in pairs. I make use of a very powerful reminder: for every exercise there is an opposite exercise you must teach to keep things in balance. The result is strong stimulus control.

Another expression that I refer to frequently when we talk about cues is cues evolve out of the teaching process. The standard instructions for teaching cues distorts the handlers ability to see cues as they are evolving. We need to be noticing what our horse is noticing and this old way of teaching cues is taking us in the opposite direction.

Several stories illustrate how the teaching behaviors in pairs works to generate well understood, reliable cues.

This is part 3 of a conversation with Chirag Patel. Chirag is based in London where consults on the ethical and science-based practice of behavior management and training for animals housed in domestic, zoo, and laboratory environments. Chirag earned his BSc (Hons) in Veterinary Sciences from the Royal Veterinary College in London and a Postgraduate Certificate in Clinical Animal Behavior from the University of Lincoln, UK. He is also a certified parrot behavior consultant (CPBC) with the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC). Currently, Chirag is studying for a MSc in Applied Behavior Analysis.

In Part 1 talked about the up-coming March 2026 Clicker Expo. For several years now Chirag and several other faculty members have done a presentation that they call The Backstage Pass. Basically each trainer picks a dog/handler team from the audience and works with that team on stage towards a stated goal behavior.

Each team works with the trainer for a few minutes at a time, then there’s a discussion of the why’s and wherefores of the methods used. It’s an interesting presentation. You get to see different styles of training as each trainer gets to know the dog and the handler they are working with.

This year they decided to do something a little different. Instead of inviting dog specialists to participate as the trainers, they decided to ask faculty members who don’t typically work with dogs. When they asked me, for some very bizarre reason, I said yes.

Chirag will be the ring master for the backstage pass. When I’ve watched him in previous years I’ve seen that he is a very creative trainer who comes up with some inventive solutions for helping dogs and handlers to be at ease. His training style is very different from mine which for me is of interest to me.

We ended Part 1 with a question about marker signals. Often in those backstage pass demos Chirag trains with food, but he doesn’t yet use a marker signal. He described his thinking behind this strategy.

In Part 2 we began with my reasons for the choices I make related to the use of marker signals. The click in clicker training has been referred to in many ways. It is a bridge, a marker signal, a snap shot. It is very much a cue. I add yet another metaphor for the role the click plays. It is a gatekeeper. I explained what I mean by that in Part 2.

In Part 3 we add the use of chains and the role that cues play in linking behaviors together to the discussion of marker signals.

This is part 2 of a conversation with Chirag Patel. Chirag is based in London where consults on the ethical and science-based practice of behavior management and training for animals housed in domestic, zoo, and laboratory environments. Chirag earned his BSc (Hons) in Veterinary Sciences from the Royal Veterinary College in London and a Postgraduate Certificate in Clinical Animal Behavior from the University of Lincoln, UK. He is also a certified parrot behavior consultant (CPBC) with the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC). Currently, Chirag is studying for a MSc in Applied Behavior Analysis.

In Part 1 we ended with a discussion of marker signals. In many of the demos I’ve watched of Chirag’s training he uses with food without a marker signal. Chirag explained his thinking behind this strategy. In Part 2 we begin with my reasons for the choices I make related to the use of marker signals.

The click in clicker training has been referred to in many ways. It is a bridge, a marker signal, a snap shot that captures a precise moment. It is very much a cue. I add yet another metaphor for the role the click plays. It is a gatekeeper. I explain what I mean by that in this episode.

We have amazingly reached episode 365. That means you can listen to an equiosity podcast every day for a year and not have to repeat any episodes - unless you want to. That’s a lot of talking. So join us as we look back over 365 episodes. We talk about why we started the podcast and what has kept us going.

If you are new to the Equiosity podcast, you have a lot of great listening ahead of you!

Equus plus Curiosity combines to create Equiosity. It is our curiosity about all things Equine that keeps us going.

This is part 1 of a conversation with Chirag Patel. Chirag is based in London where consults on the ethical and science-based practice of behavior management and training for animals housed in domestic, zoo, and laboratory environments. Chirag earned his BSc (Hons) in Veterinary Sciences from the Royal Veterinary College in London and a Postgraduate Certificate in Clinical Animal Behavior from the University of Lincoln, UK. He is also a certified parrot behavior consultant (CPBC) with the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC). Currently, Chirag is studying for a MSc in Applied Behavior Analysis.

Chirag is a member of the Clicker Expo faculty which is where I first met him. The Clicker Expo is the reason behind this conversation. For several years now Chirag and several other faculty members have done a presentation that they call The Backstage Pass. Basically each trainer picks a dog/handler team from the audience and works with that team on stage towards a stated goal behavior.

Each team works with the trainer for a few minutes at a time, then there’s a discussion of the why’s and wherefores of the methods used. It’s an interesting presentation. You get to see different styles of training as each trainer gets to know the dog and the handler they are working with.

This year they decided to do something a little different. Instead of inviting dog specialists to participate as the trainers, they decided to ask faculty members who don’t typically work with dogs. When they asked me, for some very bizarre reason, I said yes.

Chirag will be the ring master for the backstage pass. When I’ve watched him in previous years I’ve seen that he is a very creative trainer who comes up with some inventive solutions for helping dogs and handlers to be at ease. His training style is very different from mine which for me is of interest.