As the Trump administration reshapes how federal dollars flow to universities, reform-minded academics are rethinking how to fix the systemic problems on campus without jeopardizing important research.

Simon Johnson, professor of entrepreneurship at MIT Sloan School of Management and Nobel Laureate in Economics, joins Oren to unpack why our nation’s bloated and bureaucratic universities need reform and how smarter use of federal funding can incentivize it. Plus, the two make sense of how to create new innovation clusters at universities nationwide rather than just at elite coastal institutions.