On this episode, Nathan Goodman is joined by Michael Clemens to discuss why immigration policy matters not just for migrants themselves but for broader economic growth. Drawing on his influential work, including “Economics and Emigration: Trillion-Dollar Bills on the Sidewalk?” (JEP, 2011) and “The Place Premium: Bounding the Price Equivalent of Migration Barriers” (REStat, 2019), Clemens explains how even modest liberalization of migration can create enormous gains, why exchange is positive-sum, and how complementary skills across the workforce drive production. Together they assess the claim that immigration undermines culture and institutions and revisit historical panics ranging from the Chinese Exclusion Act to the Dillingham Commission.

Dr. Michael Clemens is a professor in the Department of Economics at George Mason University and a Non-Resident Senior Fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics. He helped build the research program on international migration at the Center for Global Development.

Show Notes:

• Samuel Bazzi, et al., “The Confederate Diaspora” (NBER, 2025)
• Timur Kuran’s book, Freedoms Delayed: Political Legacies of Islamic Law in the Middle East (Cambridge University Press, 2023)
• Chloe N. East, et al., “The Labor Market Effects of Immigration Enforcement” (Journal of Labor Economics, 2023)
• Mexican Migration project

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On this episode, Peter Boettke chats with political theorist Chandran Kukathas on his latest book, Dialogues on Immigration and the Open Society

(Routledge, 2025), which addresses the most important ethical and political questions about immigration and aims to teach by questioning rather than preaching. He urges conceptual clarity about terms like “civilization,” “state,” and “immigration,” and argues that framing debates strictly as “justice” disputes is unhelpful amid deep moral disagreement. Building on his book, Immigration and Freedom, he warns that immigration control often curtails citizens’ freedoms and highlights how restrictive policies can create a hostile climate toward migrants even where overall public support for immigration remains strong.

Dr. Chandran Kukathas is Lee Kong Chian Chair Professor of Political Science at School of Social Sciences at Singapore Management University and a Distinguished Affiliated Fellow at the F.A. Hayek Program for Advanced Study in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics at the Mercatus Center. He is the author of many books, including Immigration and Freedom (Princeton University Press, 2021) and The Liberal Archipelago: A Theory of Diversity and Freedom (Oxford University Press, 2007).

Show Notes:

• F.A. Hayek’s book, New Studies in Philosophy, Politics, Economics, and the History of Ideas

• F.A. Hayek’s book, Law, Legislation, and Liberty: Volume 19

• John Rawls’ book, A Theory of Justice

• Milton and Rose Friedman’s book, Free to Choose

• Free To Choose: The Original 1980 TV Series

• David Schmidtz’s book, Elements of Justice

• Stephen Macedo’s book, Liberal Virtues

• Michael Clemens’ paper, “Why Don't Remittances Appear to Affect Growth?” (The Economic Journal, 2018)

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On this episode, Nathan Goodman interviews sociologist Timothy Dunn on the militarization of the U.S.-Mexico border and its consequences for human rights. Dunn discusses how U.S. border militarization grew out of the Cold War era “low intensity conflict” doctrine and was expanded by both parties through the 1990s strategy of “prevention through deterrence.” While this policy reduced crossings in urban areas like El Paso and San Diego, it pushed migrants into deserts and mountains, ultimately contributing to thousands of migrant deaths. Dunn explains how U.S. military training and interventions in Central America fueled violence and migration, how financial institutions and drug war policies have perpetuated instability, how political entrepreneurs use crisis narratives to expand coercive power, and how programs like Operation Lone Star model a new wave of militarized enforcement. He calls for more humane immigration reforms grounded in human rights, economic realities, and the everyday resilience of immigrant communities.

Dr. Timothy J. Dunn is a Professor of Sociology at Salisbury University in Maryland. He is the author of Blockading the Border and Human Rights: The El Paso Operation that Remade Immigration Enforcement (University of Texas Press, 2009) and The Militarization of the U.S.-Mexico Border, 1978-1992: Low-Intensity Conflict Doctrine Comes Home (University of Texas Press, 1996).

Show Notes:

• Handbook on Human Security, Borders and Migration (Edward Elgar Publishing, 2021) edited by Natalia Ribas-Mateos and Timothy Dunn
• Todd Miller’s book, Empire of Borders: The Expansion of the US Border around the World
• Jason De León’s book, The Land of Open Graves: Living and Dying on the Migrant Trail
• Gary Becker’s article, "Crime and Punishment: An Economic Approach" (Journal of Political Economy, 1968)
• Mexican Migration Project
• MacArthur Fellowship Recipient: Kelly Lytle Hernández
• No More Deaths / No Más Muertes
• Coalición de Derechos Humanos
• Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights
• ACLU | Immigrants’ Rights

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On this episode, Nathan Goodman interviews political theorist Jacob Levy about the rule of law and its tensions with modern immigration enforcement. Drawing on his 2018 article, “The rule of law and the risks of lawlessness,” Levy explains that the rule of law requires laws to be general, predictable, and applied equally. Referencing thinkers like Montesquieu, Fuller, Hayek, Oakeshott, and Shklar, Levy argues that immigration control often violates these principles, especially when it involves militarized policing, extrajudicial punishment, and fear-based governance, which ultimately threatens both civil liberties and democratic institutions.

Dr. Jacob T. Levy is Tomlinson Professor of Political Theory and associated faculty in the Department of Philosophy at McGill University. He is the coordinator of McGill’s Research Group on Constitutional Studies and was the founding director of McGill’s Yan P. Lin Centre for the Study of Freedom and Global Orders in the Ancient and Modern Worlds. He is a Senior Fellow at the Niskanen Center. He is the author of The Multiculturalism of Fear (Oxford University Press, 2000) and Rationalism, Pluralism, and Freedom (Oxford University Press, 2014).

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On this episode, Peter Boettke chats with Mark Pennington on Mark's latest book, Foucault and Liberal Political Economy: Power, Knowledge, and Freedom (Oxford University Press, 2025). Pennington argues that Foucault's ideas on self-creation, disciplinary power, and biopolitics align with key liberal concerns about social control and individual agency. He critiques how both liberals and Foucauldian critics have misunderstood or ignored these connections, and drawing on thinkers like Hayek, Buchanan, and Ostrom, he calls for a liberalism that emphasizes pluralism, resists technocratic overreach, and engages more deeply with the insights of the humanities.

Dr. Mark Pennington is Professor of Political Economy and Public Policy in the Department of Political Economy at King’s College London. He holds a PhD from the London School of Economics and Political Science. Pennington is currently director of the Centre for the Study of Governance and Society.

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On this episode, Nathan Goodman speaks with Abby Hall on the "boomerang effect," where U.S. military tools and tactics used abroad—like drones—are repurposed for domestic border enforcement. Hall discusses how restrictive immigration policies, such as the Secure Fence Act and Operation Streamline, often lead to unintended consequences like increased migrant deaths and overwhelmed asylum systems. She advocates for more open immigration pathways to improve both humanitarian outcomes and resource allocation. The conversation also highlights how past U.S. interventions in Latin America have contributed to current migration patterns and emphasizes the importance of humility and flexibility in policy research.

Dr. Abigail R. Hall is an Associate Professor of Economics at the University of Tampa and a Senior Affiliated Scholar at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. She has published numerous books, including her most recent satirical book, How to Run Wars: A Confidential Playbook for the National Security Elite co-authored with Christopher J. Coyne (2024). She holds a PhD in Economics from George Mason University and is an alum of the Mercatus PhD Fellowship.

Show Notes:

• Hall's article, "Border Fencing, Migrant Flows, and Crossing Deaths"
• Hall's article, "The Unintended Consequences of U.S. Asylum Policy"

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On this episode, Nathan Goodman chats with economist Ben Powell about common myths surrounding mass immigration, including fears of job loss, wage suppression, and fiscal burdens. Drawing from his book, Wretched Refuse?: The Political Economy of Immigration and Institutions, Powell presents cross-country evidence showing that immigration does not undermine culture, institutions, or productivity. Instead, it often correlates with improvements in economic freedom and institutional quality. He also highlights the importance of focusing on targeted policy solutions rather than broad restrictions.

Dr. Benjamin Powell is the Executive Director of the Free Market Institute at Texas Tech University, a Professor of Economics in the Rawls College of Business at Texas Tech University, and a Senior Fellow with the Independent Institute. He is the Secretary-Treasurer of both the Southern Economic Association and the Association of Private Enterprise Education and the Treasurer of the Mont Pelerin Society.

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On this episode, Stefanie Haeffele chats with Abigail Hall on her latest book, How to Run Wars: A Confidential Playbook for the National Security Elite, which provides a satirical instruction manual for warfare. They discuss the various methods and approaches to bringing academic work to a broader audience, highlight the need for humility in providing commentary, emphasize the importance of Abigail’s research in the increasingly militarized modern world and the role of satire in critiquing and resisting abuses of power, and more.

Dr. Abigail R. Hall is an Associate Professor of Economics at the University of Tampa and a Senior Affiliated Scholar at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. She has published numerous books, including her most recent satirical book, How to Run Wars: A Confidential Playbook for the National Security Elite co-authored with Christopher J. Coyne (2024). She holds a PhD in Economics from George Mason University and is an alum of the Mercatus PhD Fellowship. Her research focuses on U.S. defense policy and militarism.

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Virtual Sentiments, a podcast series from the Hayek Program, is streaming. Subscribe today and listen to season three, releasing now!

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On this episode, Erwin Dekker chats with Director Tomasz Agencki on the making of "Notes on the Margin" (2024), a full length documentary on the life and legacy of Carl Menger, founder of Austrian economics. Despite limited archival material and conflicting accounts, Agencki crafts a visually rich story highlighting Menger’s intellectual journey and reformist spirit.

Tomasz Agencki is a freedom-focused movie maker who travels around the world to cooperate with like-minded creators. Agencki has over 15 years of experience in film and tv production, directs and films many of his own documentaries, and is a professional audiobook voice artist. Watch Agencki's “How Sweden Quit Smoking” (2024) or find his other works here.

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On this episode of the Hayek Program Podcast, Peter Boettke reflects on the lessons he’s learned throughout his academic career, focusing on what it takes to succeed after graduate school. Boettke encourages graduates to: value the scientific pursuit of truth and scholarship; cultivate a sense of awe, wonderment, surprise, and appreciation; and to be curious. He cautions against prioritizing cleverness over clarity and emphasizes the need to continually adapt and adjust. Persistence and hard work pays off. Try to pursue ideas, not people. Don’t be inept and don’t be lazy. Pay attention to details. Be a productive member of your department. Produce research that is genuinely interesting and of intrinsic value to your academic peers. Try to be a life changing professor. Work with good people who challenge you and find that network which insists on lifelong learning, one where you can harshly criticize one another then go have a beer together.

Boettke highlights the ongoing work of the liberal project, arguing that liberalism is not a fixed doctrine, it’s an emancipatory project. Liberalism begins with a very strong recognition of oppression, but it brings a promise of deliverance. Because language and problems change over time, liberalism must be restated in the language and concepts of successive generations. He argues that the worst thing that can happen to a good cause is not to be artfully criticized, but to be ineptly defended.

Peter Boettke is a Distinguished University Professor of Economics and Philosophy at George Mason University and Director of the F.A. Hayek Program for Advanced Study in Philosophy, Politics and Economics at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. He has published numerous books including The Socialist Calculation Debate: Theory, History, and Contemporary Relevance (2024), Money and the Rule of Law: Generality and Predictability in Monetary Institutions (2021), Living Economics: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow (2012), and Challenging Institutional Analysis and Development: The Bloomington School (2009).

If you like the show, please subscribe, leave a 5-star review, and tell others about the show! We're available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you get your podcasts.

Virtual Sentiments, a podcast series from the Hayek Program, is streaming. Subscribe today and listen to season three, releasing now!

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