In this episode, Mary Conquest speaks with Martijn Flinterman, a sociologist, researcher and author, specializing in how organizations deal with safety. Drawing on the work of Niklas Luhmann, Martijn challenges many assumptions that underpin traditional safety management.

He explores why focusing primarily on accidents can obscure crucial safety insights, and why categories such as “safe” and “unsafe” often create blind spots. Martijn explains how systems manage risk through distinctions, narratives and routines, and how these can unintentionally suppress reflection, dissent and learning.

The conversation also covers interesting ideas including harmony bias, constructive distrust and humble confidence. Martijn argues that too much trust can become negligent, silence can itself be a risk, and safety professionals must learn to act decisively while acknowledging that their understanding is always partial.

This wide-ranging discussion offers EHS professionals a sociological lens to better understand complexity, challenge comfortable assumptions and create space for critical reflection in safety systems.

Learn more about Martijn’s work: Unter Soziologen / Among Sociologists

Martijn’s book featured in this interview: Managing Safety in Complexity

Luhmann’s most accessible writing: Introduction to systems theory : Luhmann, Niklas, 1927-1998

Martijn also recommends the sociologist Stefan Kuhl: Stefan Kühl – Uklitag

Martijn Flinterman on LinkedIn: Martijn Flinterman | LinkedIn

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