“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

On today’s Dear Heretics segment, Nolan and Kelli tackle a question on navigating layoffs, revealing hard-won lessons from cutting deep, treating people humanely, and avoiding rookie RIF mistakes.

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(03:22) Dear Heretics: What to Know Before Your First RIF

(05:10) The Carta Layoff Playbook: Cut Deep, Stay Humane, Do It Once

(09:19) Sponsor: Metaview

(10:41) Change Management: Why Before and After Matter Most

(15:00) Opt-In Severance and Tucking In Top Performers

(19:00) Designing for Trust Over Fear

(22:04) Leadership Accountability and the Golden Rule

(24:11) Wrap

On today’s HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli dissect a viral LinkedIn post from an ex-Amazon director, exploring how inflated tech worker expectations clash with today’s brutal job market realities.

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

__

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:19) What Ex-Amazon Talent Deserves

(01:22) A Post Full of Assumptions

(02:41) The X Response: Out of Touch and Ego-Driven

(03:11) Sponsor: Metaview

(03:34) The Remote Work Reality: That Era Is Over

(04:39) The ChatGPT Turning Point: When Employment Fell Off a Cliff

(06:01) Why This LinkedIn Post Won’t Help Her Job Search

(06:29) The Coming Social Unrest and Displaced Tech Workers

(07:40) The Grinding Mindset

(09:09) When the Rules Changed Overnight

(10:31) The FAANG Halo Effect Is Dead

(11:55) The Quality of Life Fork: Ejecting from Tech

(13:00) Re-Underwriting Your Career in the New Reality

(14:20) Expectations Minus Reality Equals Happiness

(14:39) Hedging Your Bets: Diversify Before It’s Too Late

(15:52:) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan interview Arnnon Geshuri, Chief People Officer at Snowflake and 8-year Tesla veteran, about building HR’s strategic authority through data analytics, his automate-augment-human AI framework, and why he recruits economists and data scientists alongside traditional HR professionals.

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH ARNNON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Arnnon: linkedin.com/in/arnnongeshuri

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/en/

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For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(0:00) Intro

(1:12) Three Key Lessons from Working with Elon Musk at Tesla

(3:36) Why Snowflake: Reinventing the People Function

(4:33) The Three-Pronged AI Framework: Automate, Augment, Human-Only

(12:02) Sponsor: Metaview

(19:45) Data Analytics as the Backbone of HR

(24:00) Building the Winning HR Team Portfolio

(27:08) Speed Through Imperfection: Fast Pilots and Iteration

(29:00) Wrap

For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan have a candid discussion with Silicon Valley operator Molly Graham on founder depression, imposter syndrome, executive team dynamics, and building business-first people operations at scaling companies.

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH MOLLY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Molly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mograham/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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Glue Club:

https://www.glueclub.com/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:43) Origin of “Giving Away Your Legos”

(02:28) Emotions at Work

(02:49) Meet Bob the Monster

(04:15) Founder Depression Reality

(06:27) The Emptiness of Startups

(08:00) Life as a Barter Economy

(09:14) “I Can’t Do Math” - Professional Moron Strategy

(12:00) Growth Solves All Problems

(13:00) When Leaders Hate Each Other

(14:20) 50% Executive Hiring Success Rate

(17:00) 18-Month Executive Tenure

(18:34) Business First, Not Happiness

(21:00) Era of Excess Is Over

(21:51) Best Interview Question

(22:05) Wrap

On today’s Dear Heretics segment, Kelli and Nolan analyze why traditional bonus programs fail at early-stage companies, advocating for flexible sprint incentives and spot bonuses over rigid annual structures that create organizational debt.

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction: The Bonus Program Question

(01:04) The Cyclical Wave & Sales Incentives

(01:42) Why Early-Stage Companies Struggle

(02:46) The Coin-Operating Problem

(03:26) The 96% Problem: Legacy & Recruiting Pressure

(04:34) You Can’t Put the Toothpaste Back

(05:30) Equity Over Bonuses

(06:09) Inconsistent Application Across Teams

(06:43) Walking It Back Is Brutal

(08:06) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:28) Technical Debt vs People Debt

(11:10) Second Order Consequences

(12:31) MBOs Are a Fable

(12:53) The Solution: Sprint Incentives

(14:04) Surprise and Delight: Spot Bonuses

(15:08) Discretionary Budgets & Agility

(15:54) Final Thoughts: Avoid People Debt

(15:59) Outro

Today on HR Heretics, we’re excited to cross post a conversation from Metaview’s 10x Recruiting Podcast featuring Viet Nguyen, Head of Global Recuiting Operations of Vercel, on using AI to analyze top interviewers’ transcripts, extracting their unconscious patterns and building tools that scale interviewing excellence.

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH VIET, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Viet: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vietnguyen6/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Vercel: https://vercel.com/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Progress Over Perfection

(01:00) Why Throwing Messy Data at AI Actually Works

(01:37) The Three-Hour Experiment That Changed Everything

(02:38) Create Leverage Where Possible

(03:30) Do Nothing vs. Do Something: The Real Choice

(04:00) Sponsor: Metaview

(04:14) Interview Begins: Meet Viet Nguyen

(04:51) The Rejection That Led to Friendship

(05:26) The Five-Year Tour of Duty in Recruiting Ops

(06:37) From Zero Coding Skills to Building AI Tools

(08:00) The Gaspar Effect: Decoding Your Best Interviewer

(10:30) What Makes a Great Interviewer Great?

(13:45) Building the Automated Back-Channel Reference Tool

(17:20) The RAG Database That Knows Everyone

(20:00) When AI Says “No Connections Found” (And Why That’s Okay)

(23:15) The Webhook That Keeps Your Database Fresh

(26:51) Perfect Is the Enemy of Progress

(28:00) “Anybody Can Cook” - The Non-Technical Builder’s Manifesto

(28:27) Automating Interview Debriefs: The Next Frontier

(29:28) Real-Time Debrief Summaries: The Dream State

(30:04) Where to Find Viet

(30:33) Community Show and Tell: The Vision

(31:15) We’re All Stupid Together (And That’s the Point)

(32:05) Friday Night Recruiting Projects

(32:18) Wrap

 This episode with Jason James from Tezi briefly vanished from Spotify. Don’t ask us why. But it’s too good to not share again. So here’s Jason unpacking the future of recruiting. Please enjoy.

Jason James doesn’t sugarcoat it: recruiting coordinators and sourcers won’t exist in 5 years. In this episode, James (Co-founder and COO of Tezi) sits down with Kelli and Nolan to discuss how to screen 3000 applicants in minutes, why most great resumes just rode the elevator up at hypergrowth companies, and why AI bias audits set a higher standard than humans ever could.

Support our Sponsors:

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH JASON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasontezi/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Tezi: https://tezi.ai/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:55) Meet Max: The AI Agent Replacing Recruiting Busywork

(03:16) AI Bias vs Human Bias: Which Is Fairer?

(06:08) Human-in-the-Loop: AI Recommends, Humans Decide

(07:34) AI Interviews at Top of Funnel: What Works, What Doesn’t

(11:00) Standing Out in a Crowded AI Recruiting Market

(14:26) Sponsors: Ethena & Metaview

(17:18) “RCs and Sourcers, Find Something Else”

(20:30) The New Grad Opportunity: Alpha in a Tough Market

(22:23) “Riding the Elevator Up”: The Resume Pedigree Problem

(24:26) How to Spot Resume Riders vs Real Contributors

(26:00) 100-Hour Weeks and the 9-9-6 Culture Debate

(30:00) “The Best Culture Is Growth”

(31:00) Tezi’s Culture: Committed to Calm, Team of Adults

(34:00) What’s Next for Tezi?

(34:56) Wrap

In this latest AI Corner, Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos joins Kelli and Nolan to discuss the “Trough of Disillusionment” in enterprise AI adoption, exploring the gap between inflated expectations and practical implementation realities in recruiting workflows. Watch as Siadhal demonstrates Metaview’s AI sourcing, showcasing its intuitive, agent-based approach that moves beyond traditional Boolean methods.

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Metaview:

https://www.metaview.ai/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:35) Why Metaview Built AI Sourcing

(02:20) The Vision: Humans and AI Working Together

(03:09) Technical Breakthrough: Browser Use and Computer Use

(04:41) Beta to GA Launch Story

(05:01) Promptless Sourcing Feature

(06:36) Sponsor: Metaview

(07:58) Demo

(26:38) Data Sources and LinkedIn Compliance

(28:01) Future: ATS Integration and Multi-Database Search

(30:13) What’s Coming Next for Metaview

(31:29) Product Development Philosophy

(32:04) How to Try Metaview Sourcing

(32:33) Closing

On today’s Dear Heretics segment, Kelli and Nolan analyze why traditional bonus programs fail at early-stage companies, advocating for flexible sprint incentives and spot bonuses over rigid annual structures that create organizational debt.

Support our Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction: The Bonus Program Question

(01:04) The Cyclical Wave & Sales Incentives

(01:42) Why Early-Stage Companies Struggle

(02:46) The Coin-Operating Problem

(03:26) The 96% Problem: Legacy & Recruiting Pressure

(04:34) You Can’t Put the Toothpaste Back

(05:30) Equity Over Bonuses

(06:09) Inconsistent Application Across Teams

(06:43) Walking It Back Is Brutal

(08:06) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:28) Technical Debt vs People Debt

(11:10) Second Order Consequences

(12:31) MBOs Are a Fable

(12:53) The Solution: Sprint Incentives

(14:04) Surprise and Delight: Spot Bonuses

(15:08) Discretionary Budgets & Agility

(15:54) Final Thoughts: Avoid People Debt

(15:59) Outro

Jason James doesn’t sugarcoat it: recruiting coordinators and sourcers won’t exist in 5 years. In this episode, James (Co-founder and COO of Tezi) sits down with Kelli and Nolan to discuss how to screen 3000 applicants in minutes, why most great resumes just rode the elevator up at hypergrowth companies, and why AI bias audits set a higher standard than humans ever could.

Support our Sponsors:

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH JASON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasontezi/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Tezi: https://tezi.ai/

-

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:55) Meet Max - The AI Agent Replacing Recruiting Busywork

(03:16) AI Bias vs Human Bias: Which Is Fairer?

(06:08) Human-in-the-Loop: AI Recommends, Humans Decide

(07:34) What Works, What Doesn’t in AI Interviews at Top of Funnel

(11:00) Standing Out in a Crowded AI Recruiting Market

(14:26) Sponsors: Ethena | Metaview

(17:18) “RCs and Sourcers: Find Something Else”

(20:30) The New Grad Opportunity

(22:23) “Riding the Elevator Up”: The Resume Pedigree Problem

(24:26) How to Spot Resume Riders vs Real Contributors

(26:00) 100-Hour Weeks and the 9-9-6 Culture Debate

(30:00) “The Best Culture Is Growth”

(31:00) Tezi’s Culture: Committed to Calm, Team of Adults

(34:00) What’s Next for Tezi

(34:56) Wrap