“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

On today’s HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan debate radical workplace transparency: eliminating private Slack messages. They explore tensions between cultural openness, practical communication needs, and effective use of asynchronous tools.

Support our Sponsors:

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) The “No Private DMs” Rule

(01:04) First Reactions: How This Would Actually Work

(01:54) The Case for Transparency: Underground Slack Channels Are Toxic

(02:35) The Reality Check: Leaders Still Need Private Conversations

(03:42) Is Radical Transparency Just Performance Art?

(04:20) The Productivity Problem: Slack Surfing vs Getting Work Done

(05:11) Creating a “How We Slack” Document with Clear Rules

(06:15) Using Public Channels to Develop Holistic Leaders

(07:13) The Jensen Huang Model: Why He Doesn’t Do One-on-Ones

(08:12) Sponsors: Ethena | Metaview

(11:34) Hyper-Transparency from the CEO Builds Trust

(12:31) It All Comes Down to Judgment

(13:11) The Audio Message Revolution: Why Voice Beats Typing

(15:20) Good vs Bad Audio Messages: It’s About Sender Judgment

(16:15) The 10x Pace: Why Traditional Meeting Cadences Don’t Work Anymore

(17:34) Final Thoughts: Experiment with Your Communication Style

(17:46) Outro

For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Sally Thornton, CEO and Founder of Forshay who offers a candid examination of fractional executive work, exploring trust barriers, adverse selection problems, pricing models, and why consulting acumen matters more than traditional executive experience.

Support our Sponsors:

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH SALLY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Sally: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallythornton/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Forshay: https://forshay.com/

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For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:46) The Trust Barrier: Why Companies Resist Fractional Work

(03:34) The TAM Debate and Market Dynamics Post-COVID

(05:14) The Dirty Secret: There’s No Such Thing as Fractional Work

(06:34) Sponsors: Ethena | Metaview

(10:01) Who’s Buying and Why Finance Gets It

(11:06) Let’s Talk Money: The 65/35 Structure and Market Rates

(12:30) The Honeymoon Phase: Managing Boundaries and Expectations

(14:44) How to Assess Fractional Executives: The 75% Rule

(16:31) From Interim to Modular: How the Market Evolved

(18:04) The Black Hole Question: Why Nobody’s Calling You Back

(19:36) Network for Yourself: Nobody’s Managing Your Career But You

(21:36) How to Sustain 15 Years: Running Experiments & Following Curiosity

(22:31) Closing Thoughts: Agents for Executives Don’t Yet Exist

(23:11) Outro

For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Culture Amp CEO Didier Elzinga, revealing data-driven insights on building culture-first companies, balancing psychological safety with accountability, and prioritizing growth as engagement’s foundation.

Support our Sponsors:

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

KEEP UP WITH DIDIER, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Didier: https://www.linkedin.com/in/didierelzinga/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Culture Amp: https://www.cultureamp.com/

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:30) From Harry Potter to Building Culture Amp

(02:16) What Is a Culture-First Company?

(03:19) The Coherency Matrix: Trust vs. Mission Orientation

(04:40) Growth: The One Thing That’s Never Changed

(05:36) Leaders Matter More Than Managers (The Data)

(07:09) Don’t Bother Convincing People Who Don’t Get It

(08:02) How Structured Reviews Closed the Gender Gap

(09:17) Sponsor: Ethena | Metaview

(12:39) Data Is Just the Start of Honest Conversations

(13:28) Esther Perel: Leaders Don’t Know How to Say No

(14:16) My Engagement Survey Mistake as CPO

(15:32) Feedback Is Not a Gift, It’s a Workout

(16:23) How We Run Culture Amp: Values and Growth

(18:45) We Can’t Be Everything for Everyone

(20:07) Storytelling: The Most Important Leadership Skill

(22:07) Finding Your Authentic Narrative

(23:32) Wrap

For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Coinbase Chief People Officer LJ Brock reveals how the company’s mission-first philosophy, refusal to negotiate salaries, and rigorous talent density standards challenge conventional HR orthodoxy.

Support our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

KEEP UP WITH L.J., NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

L.J.: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lbrock/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Coinbase: http://www.coinbase.com/

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:46) Banning Politics at Work

(02:29) Backlash and Reality: “You’ll Never Work Again”

(04:32) The Near-Death Moment

(05:22) How Coinbase Creates Radical Ideas

(06:34) Talent Density: The Future of Hiring Standards

(09:04) CEO Approval for Every Hire

(09:14) Real-Time Feedback: Eliminating Manager Bias

(11:33) Performance Systems That Don’t Suck

(13:34) Sponsors: Ethena | Planful

(16:43) Work Trials

(15:37) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:43) Work Trials: The 12-Week Internship Strategy

(19:49) Single Pay Target

(21:00)Executive Alignment on No Negotiation

(22:03) Stock Grants: From Four Years to One Year

(23:17) Building the Next Generation of CHROs

(26:40) Closing

On today’s HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan deliver candid analysis of H1B visa policy disruptions impacting tech hiring, then recap their Confluent People Team offsite with Colleen McCreary, featuring contrarian HR perspectives on compensation equity, organizational beliefs, and fostering intellectual disagreement.

Support our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:40) H1B Visa Impact on Tech

(11:48) Sponsors: Ethena | Planful

(15:25) Confluent People Team Offsite Recap

(20:37) Sponsor: Metaview

(22:27) Contrarian HR Beliefs & Organizational Leadership

(27:34) Fashion Roast: Is Silicon Valley Dressing Up?

(29:08) Wrap

On today’s Dear Heretics segment, Kelli and Nolan deliver candid, practical advice for Chief People Officers navigating their critical first 90 days, featuring real-world insights on building stakeholder trust, executing quick wins, and establishing strategic organizational influence.

Support our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:13) Three Core Goals for New CPOs

(01:41) Common Fail States to Avoid

(02:03) Over-Communicating with Your CEO

(02:23) Building Executive Relationships Beyond One-on-Ones

(02:58) Getting to the Ground Floor: The Modern Executive Approach

(03:19) The Colleen McCreary Method: 100 One-on-Ones in 90 Days

(04:26) Quick Wins and Board Relationship Strategy

(04:44) Four-Pillar Framework in Action

(05:34) Pre-Start Transparency: Setting Expectations Early

(06:40) The Four Pillars: Listen, Execute, Strategize, Build

(08:18) The Brutal Reality: 3X Speed for Three Months

(09:15) Sprint vs Marathon: Managing Energy and Family Expectations

(09:58) Reframing “S**t Shows” as Solvable Problems

(11:22) The Critical Importance of In-Person Time

(12:13) Sponsors: Ethena | Planful

(15:22) Building on Company Strengths vs Starting from Scratch

(16:31) Team Building Strategy: Know Before You Walk In

(17:47) Making “Unnatural” Efforts for Face-Time

(18:33) Build Your Scaffolding or Die: The Team Priority

(20:14) Ditch HR Speak: Talking Business, Not Corporate Vernacular

(21:47) CEO Shadowing: What It Really Means

(23:00) Real Partnership: Daily Communication and Quick Feedback Loops

(23:59) Sponsor: Metaview

(25:18) The Bait-and-Switch Problem in Executive Hiring

(27:10) Market Reality: Nine-Month Average Tenure Crisis

(29:21) Board Relationships and Air Cover Strategy

(30:10) Building Your Narrative: Board Meeting Preparation

(31:41) Documentation Strategy: Journaling and Whiteboarding

(32:09) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan talks to Immigration attorney Nicole Gunara (Manifest Law) who analyzes the new $100,000 H-1B policy that sparked rapid industry adaptation across Silicon Valley, breaking down how this strategic shift creates different advantages for big tech versus startups while driving companies to explore innovative alternative visa pathways.

Support our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

* It only takes minutes to get up and running.

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

KEEP UP WITH NICOLE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nicole: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ngunara10/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Manifest Law: https://manifestlaw.com/

Gary Tan’s LinkedIn post: A $100K H1B fee won't bother big tech…

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:51) What Happened Friday Night: The $100K H-1B Bombshell

(02:53) Monday Reality Check: What We Actually Know

(04:16) Clear vs. Unclear: Exemptions and Renewal Definitions

(07:49) Sponsors: Ethena | Planful

(10:58) Crisis Response Strategy: Audit, Pause, and Pivot

(15:56) The Alphabet Soup: Alternative Visa Pathways

(21:19) Sponsor: Metaview

(23:08) The O-1 Opportunity: 94.5% Approval Rates Explained

(24:43) The Startup Dilemma: Gary Tan vs. Big Tech Advantage

(28:57) Strategic or Chaotic? The Department of Labor Clue

(30:13) America's STEM Pipeline Problem: The Real Policy Driver

(32:21) Wrap

Returning guest Bryan Power (Head of People, Nextdoor) talk about AI workplace adoption, contrasting executives who avoid AI as time-consuming with his dedicated approach of treating AI as teammates, scheduling one-on-ones with custom GPTs, and transforming workflows.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.

KEEP UP WITH BRYAN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Bryan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanpower/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Nextdoor: https://nextdoor.com

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:00) The Tinkerer vs. The Resisters

(03:00) The AI Bubble and Workplace Resistance

(05:00) Project Neighbor: Nextdoor's AI Initiative

(07:00) Case Study: Building AI Training with ChatGPT

(09:00) Mental Model Shift: AI as Teammate, Not Tool

(10:00) Scheduling One-on-Ones with Custom GPTs

(10:51) Sponsors: Ethena | Planful

(14:01) Executive Offsite Planning: AI in Action

(16:00) The Onboarding Problem: Context and Custom GPTs

(18:00) Compensation GPT: Domain-Specific AI Applications

(21:00) Output and Velocity: Gamma and Slide Creation

(22:43) Sponsor: Metaview

(24:37) Optional or Essential: The Future of AI Adoption

(26:00) The Mass Extinction Event for Knowledge Workers

(30:00) Creating Permission to Tinker

(32:00) Restructuring Executive Time for AI

(34:00) Corporate Lingo Roast

(44:08) Wrap

For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Katelin Holloway, Founding Partner of Seven Seven Six. Katelin argues HR professionals possess essential early-stage investing skills, and advocates their transition from support roles to decision-making positions through founder relationship-building strategies.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH KATELIN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Katelin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katelinholloway/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Seven Seven Six: http://sevensevensix.com

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:27) How HR "Found" Katelin: The Accidental Career Path

(02:02) Pixar University: Learning from World-Class People Operations

(03:16) Meeting Alexis Ohanian: The Reddit Turnaround Story

(04:12) When Employees Refused to Wear Company Swag

(04:43) Why Hard Challenges Build Deeper Professional Bonds

(05:42) From Boardroom to Back Room: The VC Industry Problem

(07:24) Why Early-Stage Investing IS People Work

(08:52) The "Talent Partner" Problem: Wasted Potential in VC

(09:40) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(12:03) The Marc Andreessen Challenge: Selection vs. Support

(13:23) Platform Shifts Are Disrupting Venture Capital

(14:07) Product and People First: 776's Different Approach

(15:30) The Tactical Playbook: How to Break Into Venture

(15:49) Build Founder Relationships, Not VC Relationships

(16:22) The "How Can I Help?" Problem: Why Most VCs Fail Founders

(17:39) From Advisor to Angel: Getting Equity Without Cash

(18:28) The Golden Rule: Genuine Help Must Come First

(20:06) Ed Catmull's 5-Year Rule: Knowing When to Leap

(21:57) Why the Smartest People Never "Figure It Out"

(22:26) Closing: Building the Future of Venture Capital

For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Iain Roberts, Airbnb's Global Head of Employee Experience and discuss his transition from IDEO designer to Airbnb's CHRO, exploring how design thinking principles reshape organizational structure, collaborative leadership, and workplace policies in opposition to traditional HR practices.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH IAIN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Iain: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertsiain

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Airbnb: http://airbnb.com/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:08) "Everything Needs to be Designed" Philosophy

(02:48) Founder Mode: Leadership Through Collaboration

(05:50) The One Roadmap Strategy

(08:04) Prototyping Human Experiences

(12:14) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(14:42) Live and Work Anywhere: The Contrarian Bet

(18:12) Talent Strategy & Future of Work

(20:19) Wrap